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Torpedo
18th September 2010, 13:05
In Pakistan, there is always a khatam happening for a deceased person either after 3/7/10/40 days where they invite people for a feast and the dead person gets sawaab?

Is this right or wrong?

baalti
18th September 2010, 13:08
mere bhai the direction the world is heading, one should be glad such khatams are there, otherwise who will remember the deceased (not taking in mind if it carries any religious importance or not).

also if the khatams are purely for praying for the deceased than its right, but if its only to feast and show off etc, than its wrong. the purpose of the food that is cooked on the khatams is to serve it to poor/needy, and too often the family itself or its well off relatives eat it all and poor prob dont even get anything if anything some leftovers.

Momo
18th September 2010, 13:11
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

baalti
18th September 2010, 13:16
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

makes sense but what of the Fateha and quran bakshish done for them in their name?

Mohsin
18th September 2010, 16:33
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

What about reading the Qur'an for their bakshish....for example when you do so for your mother/father?

Radiance Of Australis
18th September 2010, 16:41
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

+1
These things are all made up,sadly.

Torpedo
19th September 2010, 11:22
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

If that's the case, then why is it so prevalent in Pakistan? Why don't the religious scholars speak out against these practices?

Free Hit
19th September 2010, 11:29
If that's the case, then why is it so prevalent in Pakistan? Why don't the religious scholars speak out against these practices?

because momo is not sunni, and he doesnt believe in it, where as your question about why they do it is because they are sunni.

doing khatam and sending sawab to the dead person is the best thing you can do for them!

Momo
19th September 2010, 11:32
If that's the case, then why is it so prevalent in Pakistan? Why don't the religious scholars speak out against these practices?
Well, many religious scholars do speak out against these practices. But then many religious scholars speak out against things like bribery, vulgarity, and badmaashi too. Why are those things so prevalent in Pakistan?

Being prevalent doesn't make a thing right, does it?

DeadlyVenom
19th September 2010, 11:48
If that's the case, then why is it so prevalent in Pakistan? Why don't the religious scholars speak out against these practices?

These ceremonies provide them with food and something to do.

DeadlyVenom
19th September 2010, 11:48
because momo is not sunni, and he doesnt believe in it, where as your question about why they do it is because they are sunni.

doing khatam and sending sawab to the dead person is the best thing you can do for them!

prove it. From Sahih Hadith or Quran,

Waseem
19th September 2010, 12:15
These ceremonies provide them with food and something to do.

I think that's quite a cheap way of looking at it.
There is nothing wrong in Quran about these khatams but some people make a huge fuss about it for no reason.

What's wrong with people getting together and making dua after reading Quran??It does sound odd when people say that we have read 100 Qurans for deceased but i see nothing wrong with people making dua for that person after reading Quran.

One side thinks it's the best thing on earth to get together for the deceased and ther side over reacts as if it's the worst sin on planet.

Milad is a similar issue, we had people figting(in NZ) and some even tried to attack people in a mosque just because some people wanted to organise milaad in newly built mosque and others didn't want anything like that to happen.

IAJ
19th September 2010, 12:19
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

You seem to be student of Ghamdi?

Proofs from Quran:

And those who came after them say, "O our Lord! Forgive us, and our brothers who accepted faith before us, and do not keep any malice in our hearts towards the believers - O our Lord! Indeed You only are the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful." (Hashr 59:10)

"O our Lord! And forgive me, and my parents, and all the Muslims on the day when the account will be established." (Ibrahim 14:41)

Proofs from the Ahadeeth:

Abu Huraira (Allah be well pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: When a man dies, his acts come to an end, but three, recurring charity, or knowledge (by which people) benefit, or a pious son, who prays for him (for the deceased)
. (Muslim)

Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'Aas (Allah be well pleased with him): Al-'As ibn Wa'il left his will that a hundred slaves should be emancipated on his behalf. His son Hisham emancipated fifty slaves and his son Amr intended to emancipate the remaining fifty on his behalf, but he said: I should ask first the Apostle of Allah. He, therefore, came to the Holy Prophet and said: Apostle of Allah, my father left in his will that a hundred slaves should be emancipated on his behalf and Hisham has emancipated fifty on his behalf and fifty remain. Shall I emancipate them on his behalf The Apostle of Allah said: Had he been a Muslim and you had emancipated slaves on his behalf, or given sadaqah on his behalf, or performed the pilgrimage, that would have reached him. (Abu Daud)

Syeda 'A'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) reported Allah's Apostle (peace and blessings be upon him) saying: If a company of Muslims numbering one hundred pray over a dead person, all of them interceding for him, their intercession for him will be accepted. (Muslim)

Reported S. Jaber (Allah be well pleased with him): We came out with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to Saa'd bin Muaz when he expired. When the Holy Prophet performed his funeral prayer, and he was buried in his grave and the earth was levelled upon him, the Holy Prophet read "Tasbeeh" and we also recited "Tasbeeh" for a long time. Then he recited "Takbeer", so we too recited "Takbeer". It was asked ";O the Messenger of Allah! Why have you recited "Tasbeeh" and "Takbeer" He said, "The grave became too narrow for this pious man till Allah made it spacious because of it (the recitation)." (Ahmed, Mishkaat)

Narrated Abu Huraira (Allah be well pleased with him): The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)said while standing near the graves of the martyrs of Uhud, "I bear witness that you are alive in the sight of Allah." Then turning towards those present he said, "So visit them, and greet them - I swear by the One in whose power lies my life, they will answer back to whoever greets them until the Last Day." (Hakim, Baihaqi)

"A woman came to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and said, ' I have given charity on behalf of my dead mother by giving away her female servant.' The Holy Prophet answered, 'You will have its reward [and so will she] but return the female servant so that the inheritance [may be properly divided].' The woman then said, 'She used to owe fasts, can I fast on her behalf' He answered, 'You may fast on her behalf.' The woman then said, 'She did not perform Hajj, can I perform on her behalf' The Holy Prophet answered, 'Yes. You may perform Hajj on her behalf." (Tirmizi)

Syeda A'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) reported that a man said to Allah's Apostle (peace and blessings be upon him): My mother died all of a sudden, and I think if she (could have the opportunity) to speak she would have (made a will) regarding Sadaqah'. Will I be entitled to reward if I give charity on her behalf He (the Holy Prophet) said: "Yes". (Muslim)

Narrated Sa'd ibn Ubadah (Allah be well pleased with him): Sa'd asked: Apostle of Allah, Umm Sa'd has died; what form of sadaqah is best He replied: Water (is best). He dug a well and said: It is for Umm Sa'd. (Abu Daud, Mishkaat)

And here comes the Ahadeeth about reciting the Quran over the dead:

The Holy Prophet said: "Recite Ya Seen [Qur'an 36] over your dead." (Abu Daud, Nasai, Ibn Majah)

Jaber reported: We came out with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to Saa'd bin Muaz when he expired. When the Holy Prophet performed his funeral prayer, and he was buried in his grave and the earth was levelled upon him, the Holy Prophet read "Tasbeeh" and we also recited "Tasbeeh" for a long time. Then he recited "Takbeer", so we too recited "Takbeer". It was asked ";O the Messenger of Allah! Why have you recited "Tasbeeh" and "Takbeer" He said, "The grave became too narrow for this pious man till Allah made it spacious because of it (the recitation)." (Ahmed, Mishkaat)

The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "What is credited to a believer of his action and good deed after his death is any useful knowledge he might have taught or spread, a Allah-fearing child he might have left behind, a copy of the Qur'an he might have left to an heir, a mosque he might have built, a house he might have dedicated for use by travelers, a stream or river he might have caused to run, a donation to charity (i.e. sadaqah) he might have set aside when he was enjoying good health. All that catches up with him after his death." (Ibn Majah).

The underlined words "a copy of the Qur'an he might have left to an heir" are an ample proof that when the heir will read from it, the reward will be passed on to the deceased.!!!

What more proofs do you want?

DeadlyVenom
19th September 2010, 12:23
I think that's quite a cheap way of looking at it.
There is nothing wrong in Quran about these khatams but some people make a huge fuss about it for no reason.

What's wrong with people getting together and making dua after reading Quran??It does sound odd when people say that we have read 100 Qurans for deceased but i see nothing wrong with people making dua for that person after reading Quran.

One side thinks it's the best thing on earth to get together for the deceased and ther side over reacts as if it's the worst sin on planet.

Milad is a similar issue, we had people figting(in NZ) and some even tried to attack people in a mosque just because some people wanted to organise milaad in newly built mosque and others didn't want anything like that to happen.

There is no evidence for it on Quran or Sunnah. It is an innovatory practice with roots in pagan or hindu culture.

Torpedo
19th September 2010, 12:29
Well, many religious scholars do speak out against these practices. But then many religious scholars speak out against things like bribery, vulgarity, and badmaashi too. Why are those things so prevalent in Pakistan?

Being prevalent doesn't make a thing right, does it?

Even though it is widespread, still people know that it is wrong and no one tries to justify it. On the other hand, you said that khatam has no basis in Islam, yet people still practice this act and argue in favour of khatam. Bribery and all that is widespread and wrong too, but no one will argue in favour of it. I hope you understand what I'm trying to put across.

IAJ
19th September 2010, 12:44
There is no evidence for it on Quran or Sunnah. It is an innovatory practice with roots in pagan or hindu culture.

Did you read the post above your last post?

Momo
19th September 2010, 12:44
Even though it is widespread, still people know that it is wrong and no one tries to justify it. On the other hand, you said that khatam has no basis in Islam, yet people still practice this act and argue in favour of khatam. Bribery and all that is widespread and wrong too, but no one will argue in favour of it. I hope you understand what I'm trying to put across.
Is that the criterion then? There are millions of people who will argue in favour of hitting oneself with sharp objects once every year, in the name of religion! What does that prove?

If something comes under the category of ibaadaat, then unless the Rasool Allah did it himself and sanction it for us, we can't just start it. It has nothing to do with whether somebody argues in its favour or not. I hope you understand my point.

infinite786
19th September 2010, 12:48
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

100% true. Couldnt have put it better myself.


If that's the case, then why is it so prevalent in Pakistan? Why don't the religious scholars speak out against these practices?

Usually they get paid to come and make dua, so when u get paid why stop?


because momo is not sunni, and he doesnt believe in it, where as your question about why they do it is because they are sunni.

doing khatam and sending sawab to the dead person is the best thing you can do for them!

Has momo claimed he is not Sunni?


prove it. From Sahih Hadith or Quran,

Exaclty or bring a respected scholars teachings as to why it is done.

Here is a great fatwa:


Fatwa # 15892 from India Date: Tuesday, November 20th 2007
Category

Beliefs and Practices (Aqeedah)
Title
After somebody dead family member did fahatiya khawni and making lunch, for his sawab? Is it true in Islam, please explain.

Question


After somebody dead family member did fahatiya khawni and making lunch, for his sawab? Is it true in Islam, please explain.

Answer


In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Assalaamu `alaykum waRahmatullahi Wabarakatoh

It is an act of reward to send Isale Thawaab to the deceased. There is no specific way in sending Isale Thawaab for the mayyit. Shariah has left it upon the individual that whatever optional act he does, he may pass the reward over to the deceased. Having special gatherings and making Khatam is not established in the authentic works of Shariah. If it is a custom to follow the practice, then that will be an act of Bidah. Furthermore, these gatherings or Khatams turn out to be entertainment gatherings. The men mix freely with strange women and the purpose for gathering (Iesale Thawaab) is not fulfilled at all. Apart from this, there are many other non Shari’e activities that do take place.

In view of the above, it is better if such gatherings are not held nor attended. Every person should be encouraged to make Isale Thawaab individually. There should be no special time or gathering held for this purpose.

And Allah knows best

Wassalam

Muhammed Zakariyya Desai,

Checked and Approved by:

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah

http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=dce4648b10e4930e3021451208eb8d0d

Momo
19th September 2010, 12:49
You seem to be student of Ghamdi?
Brother:

If what I say makes sense, then who cares who my teacher is? And if what I say makes no sense, then who cares who my teacher is? Let's dispense with this ad hominen stuff for good.

Proofs from Quran:...

And those who came after them say, "O our Lord! Forgive us, and our brothers who accepted faith before us, and do not keep any malice in our hearts towards the believers - O our Lord! Indeed You only are the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful." (Hashr 59:10)

"O our Lord! And forgive me, and my parents, and all the Muslims on the day when the account will be established." (Ibrahim 14:41)

Proofs from the Ahadeeth:...

IAJ, before you provide evidence, can you please state clearly what it is that you are trying to prove in the first place?

There are two additional requests:

1. What you are trying to prove should be relevant to the topic of this thread.
2. Show and tell. Your evidence should prove what you claimed you were going to prove, and not something else.

Thank you.

IAJ
19th September 2010, 13:05
Brother:

If what I say makes sense, then who cares who my teacher is? And if what I say makes no sense, then who cares who my teacher is? Let's dispense with this ad hominen stuff for good.

IAJ, before you provide evidence, can you please state clearly what it is that you are trying to prove in the first place?
There are two additional requests:

1. What you are trying to prove should be relevant to the topic of this thread.
2. Show and tell. Your evidence should prove what you claimed you were going to prove, and not something else.

Thank you.

Momo bhai you said following in one of your posts:

"As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid."

If dead person's account is closed why did our beloved Prophet (s.a.w) say the following?:

The Holy Prophet said: "Recite Ya Seen [Qur'an 36] over your dead." (Abu Daud, Nasai, Ibn Majah)

And this hadeeth is also anwser to to other who wants proofs from sunnah reagarding reciting the Quran over the dead ones.

Momo
19th September 2010, 13:27
Momo bhai you said following in one of your posts:

"As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid."

If dead person's account is closed why did our beloved Prophet (s.a.w) say the following?:

The Holy Prophet said: "Recite Ya Seen [Qur'an 36] over your dead." (Abu Daud, Nasai, Ibn Majah)

And this hadeeth is also anwser to to other who wants proofs from sunnah reagarding reciting the Quran over the dead ones.
Yes I said that. And I stand by it.

Let me get it straight, before we go forward. Your long post was not related to the khatam of Qur'an after 40 days of death (the topic of this thread) but you intended to prove the above statement of mine wrong. Have I summed up the situation fairly?

I will comment on your evidence once I get your reply to this, inshaAllah.

IAJ
19th September 2010, 13:37
Yes I said that. And I stand by it.

Let me get it straight, before we go forward. Your long post was not related to the khatam of Qur'an after 40 days of death (the topic of this thread) but you intended to prove the above statement of mine wrong. Have I summed up the situation fairly?

I will comment on your evidence once I get your reply to this, inshaAllah.

The OP's question was about sawwab for the dead people and when I started reading rest of the posts I stopped at yours and replied.

Now, please reply on the hadeeth I typed here.

ShaazE
19th September 2010, 13:44
In Pakistan, there is always a khatam happening for a deceased person either after 3/7/10/40 days where they invite people for a feast and the dead person gets sawaab?

Is this right or wrong?

Because the Brelvi "Mullahs" of the subcontinent who are greatly influenced by Hindu traditions really love that halwa.

infinite786
19th September 2010, 13:48
Because the Brelvi "Mullahs" of the subcontinent who are greatly influenced by Hindu traditions really love that halwa.

:)))

IAJ
19th September 2010, 13:49
Because the Brelvi "Mullahs" of the subcontinent who are greatly influenced by Hindu traditions really love that halwa.

Hey, don't go around and spread lied like that. What hindu traditions are you talking about? and what knowledge have you about what the mullahs there are doing or not?

infinite786
19th September 2010, 13:50
Note if possible when posting an ahadeeth or ayat of the quran plz post a respectable tafsir/commentary of the ayat/ahadeeth instead of posting your own opinion as to what it means. Otherwise these things can be taken out of context.

infinite786
19th September 2010, 13:52
Hey, don't go around and spread lied like that. What hindu traditions are you talking about? and what knowledge have you about what the mullahs there are doing or not?

Believe it or not, there is great truth behind the humurous comment he made.

Free Hit
19th September 2010, 14:08
I love to hate the ignorance of you people! first you ask for quran and hadith support for the topic, when you do get it then you pick up the proofs which are not clear enough and comment on it, and totally ignore the proofs which do make sense and support the khatam khawani in this case:bow:

infinite786
19th September 2010, 14:13
I love to hate the ignorance of you people! first you ask for quran and hadith support for the topic, when you do get it then you pick up the proofs which are not clear enough and comment on it, and totally ignore the proofs which do make sense and support the khatam khawani in this case:bow:

Unfortunately my limited intelligence does not allow me to understand the teachings of the Quran and Ahadeeth by simply reading them. Which is the reason i requested for commentary or fatwas of scholars. In this way there is clarity over the issue and it is simplified in a way which everyone can understand.

If everyone here was to give their opinion on an extract of the quran or ahadeeth as to when and where it applies and what it means it would be wrong, for we do not have the ability to do ijtihad.

And if a point you are making is right, then you should have no trouble in finiding a fatwa by your respected peers regarding the subject.

Momo
19th September 2010, 14:14
"As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid."

If dead person's account is closed why did our beloved Prophet (s.a.w) say the following?:

The Holy Prophet said: "Recite Ya Seen [Qur'an 36] over your dead." (Abu Daud, Nasai, Ibn Majah)

And this hadeeth is also anwser to to other who wants proofs from sunnah reagarding reciting the Quran over the dead ones.
There are at least four things wrong with this post. For starters, Hadees is NOT Sunnah. Therefore your last sentence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If I am excused a technical word, akhbaar-e-ahaad can neither add anything in our deen nor take anything out of it. Our deen is complete in Qur'an and Sunnah.

Secondly, even if for a moment I put that aside, the authenticity of this hadees (along with many other ahadees about the "blessings" of specific surah of the Qur'an) is dubious.

Even putting that aside for the moment, what does it prove anyway? I mean, even if we accept for the sake of argument that we are told to read it at the death of somebody, how does it automatically mean that the dead will get rewarded?

Then, does this hadees not clash with the following hadees that you yourself quoted above (in this very thread):

"Abu Huraira (Allah be well pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: When a man dies, his acts come to an end, but three, recurring charity, or knowledge (by which people) benefit, or a pious son, who prays for him (for the deceased) - Muslim"

as there's no mention of reading Qur'an by somebody else as one of the means by which the dead can still benefit?

Momo
19th September 2010, 14:17
I love to hate the ignorance of you people! first you ask for quran and hadith support for the topic, when you do get it then you pick up the proofs which are not clear enough and comment on it, and totally ignore the proofs which do make sense and support the khatam khawani in this case:bow:
Where's the Qur'an support on this issue? I would love to read it. Please tell me the post number as I seem to have missed it.

Free Hit
19th September 2010, 14:23
Where's the Qur'an support on this issue? I would love to read it. Please tell me the post number as I seem to have missed it.

like you just said, Our deen is complete in Qur'an and Sunnah, then why arent you taking the hadith as it is about reciting yaseen(how can hadith and sunnah of prophet be two different things), offcourse the hadith is quiet clear and in support of sawab for dead person, but i knew that people here find some sort of way to prove it wrong.

Momo
19th September 2010, 14:27
like you just said, Our deen is complete in Qur'an and Sunnah, then why arent you taking the hadith as it is about reciting yaseen(how can hadith and sunnah of prophet be two different things), offcourse the hadith is quiet clear and in support of sawab for dead person, but i knew that people here find some sort of way to prove it wrong.
Yes our deen is complete in Qur'an and Sunnah. Not in Qur'an and Hadees. There's a world of difference between Sunnah and Hadees.

Secondly, no, the Hadees isn't quite clear by any stretch of imagination (see my post above).

Thirdly, where is the Qur'an reference that supposedly proves it (as you claimed above)?

d0gers
19th September 2010, 14:37
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.Momo a couple of thoughts occurred to me after reading through this thread:

1) Shouldn't opportunities to read the Quran be encouraged rather than discouraged? We usually argue that people don't read the Quran enough. So what if it's a gathering for someone who's passed? Can one not pray for the departed?

2) The reason organized Quran khwanis didn't exist during the Prophet's time has probably more to do with the fact that written Qurans weren't freely available back then. Or to put it differently, is there anywhere where something like this (i.e. the topic of discussion) has been expressly forbidden?

Free Hit
19th September 2010, 14:42
Yes our deen is complete in Qur'an and Sunnah. Not in Qur'an and Hadees. There's a world of difference between Sunnah and Hadees.

Secondly, no, the Hadees isn't quite clear by any stretch of imagination (see my post above).

Thirdly, where is the Qur'an reference that supposedly proves it (as you claimed above)?

The Quranic verses in a post above are clear that you do dua for the dead one, then how can reading quran before that be a wrong thing, especially when its the family of the dead one doing the khatam(hadith about three things which benefit the dead one, aulad is one of it)

Quran says pray for the dead one, sunnah says send sawab upon the dead one, our relegion is complete with quran and sunnah, so our this issue is complete with the help of two source's added together.

infinite786
19th September 2010, 14:47
Momo a couple of thoughts occurred to me after reading through this thread:

1) Shouldn't opportunities to read the Quran be encouraged rather than discouraged? We usually argue that people don't read the Quran enough. So what if it's a gathering for someone who's passed? Can one not pray for the departed?


Indeed they should pray for the person whos passed.

(This recitation can be carried out individually and also collectively with maintaining the proper Adab and respect for the book of Allah. However, in the case of collective recitation, it is preferable to recite silently.

It is stated in the famous Hanafi reference book, al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya quoting from al-Qunya:

"It is disliked (makruh) for a group of people to recite the Qur'an loudly, for it entails discarding the command of listening to the recitation with attentiveness and remaining silent (m, due to the fact that all the reciters will be reciting simultaneously)." (al-Fatwa al-Hindiyya, 317)

However, Imam al-Halabi states in his Sharh al-Munya al-Kabir:

It is said that there is nothing wrong in reading loudly and collectively, for listening to the recitation is Fard Kifaya, thus this can be achieved by some or one member of the group remaining silent." (See: Imdad al-Muftiyyin, 1/284)

It is also stated in al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya:

"There is nothing wrong in gathering and reciting Surah al-Ikhlas at the time of completing the Qur'an (Khatm). However, if one member of the congregation recites and the rest listen attentively, then this is better (awla)." (ibid)

Therefore, it is permissible to gather and recite the Qur'an at home or in a Masjid. It is preferable that the recitation is carried out silently. However, to recite loudly is also permissible, and the command of listening to the recitation will be fulfilled by one member of the group remaining silent.

As for the eating of food after the recitation is concerned, there is nothing principally wrong in that. However, care should be taken that the objective of the gathering is not lost, and the intention of attending the gathering is not one of eating food.

Finally, it should be remembered that the recitation should be solely for the pleasure of Allah and gaining reward. It should not be for any worldly motive or for showing off. Many times, such gatherings are no more than a custom where people gather for the sake of it, and more time is spent in other things than actually reciting the Qur'an. If this is avoided, then surely it will be a blessed event.

Taken from darul iftaa website. )

2) The reason organized Quran khwanis didn't exist during the Prophet's time has probably more to do with the fact that written Qurans weren't freely available back then. Or to put it differently, is there anywhere where something like this (i.e. the topic of discussion) has been expressly forbidden?[/QUOTE]

Quran existed at the time of Prophet (PBUH), in tablet form and in the hearts of many huffaz.

6xafridi
19th September 2010, 14:48
Momo is absolutely right and the reason why these khatam's and qur'aan khaani's are so prevalent in Pakistan is because everyone thinks it's part of the Deen. It's shocking really because people in Pakistan inherited many things from the Hindu culture and they try to integrate that into Islam. (Not saying that these two ideas were influenced by the Hindu culture)

We can pray for the departed but to call all our friends and relatives and have a Qur'aan Khaani for a deceased person really has no basis in Islam. Many people back then had much of the Qur'aan memorized so they could have done something like the Qur'aan Khaani too.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Momo
19th September 2010, 14:49
Momo a couple of thoughts occurred to me after reading through this thread:

1) Shouldn't opportunities to read the Quran be encouraged rather than discouraged? We usually argue that people don't read the Quran enough. So what if it's a gathering for someone who's passed? Can one not pray for the departed?
Opportunities to read the Qur'an should definitely be encouraged. But not if it means adding things that don't belong to our deen. Means are as important as goals.

What we really need to encourage though is understanding Qur'an, not just reading it. Had we succeeded in doing that, questions like this wouldn't even have arisen as people would have known then that the Qur'an is a book of guidance and cure for the living, not blessing for the dead.


2) The reason organized Quran khwanis didn't exist during the Prophet's time has probably more to do with the fact that written Qurans weren't freely available back then. Or to put it differently, is there anywhere where something like this (i.e. the topic of discussion) has been expressly forbidden?
Written Qur'ans may not have been available then, but huffaaz were always there from day one. Had something like this happened, the tradition would have continued.

infinite786
19th September 2010, 14:49
The original topic of inviting people for a feast and feeding them for reciting Quran was not practised by the Prophet (PBUH).

If you believe it was then please post Hadith stating the Prophet (PBUH) practiced such and such.

IAJ
19th September 2010, 14:51
There are at least four things wrong with this post. For starters, Hadees is NOT Sunnah. Therefore your last sentence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If I am excused a technical word, akhbaar-e-ahaad can neither add anything in our deen nor take anything out of it. Our deen is complete in Qur'an and Sunnah.

Secondly, even if for a moment I put that aside, the authenticity of this hadees (along with many other ahadees about the "blessings" of specific surah of the Qur'an) is dubious.

Even putting that aside for the moment, what does it prove anyway? I mean, even if we accept for the sake of argument that we are told to read it at the death of somebody, how does it automatically mean that the dead will get rewarded?

Then, does this hadees not clash with the following hadees that you yourself quoted above (in this very thread):

"Abu Huraira (Allah be well pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: When a man dies, his acts come to an end, but three, recurring charity, or knowledge (by which people) benefit, or a pious son, who prays for him (for the deceased) - Muslim"

as there's no mention of reading Qur'an by somebody else as one of the means by which the dead can still benefit?

The general definition of SUNNAH includes the prophet's (s.a.w) sayings, habits, practices and even His silent approvals I believe so how can you say this hadeeth isn't sunnah?

This hadeeth is recorded in three books as you can see and two of them are from siha sitta. Even if a hadeeth is dhaif it doesn't mean it is false, it's only due to discontinuity in the chain of narrators.

Regarding your question about how the mentioned hadeeth automatically means that the dead will get the rewarded.
You, my brother, who put a lot of emhasis on logic factors, just tell me what the logical meaning of this hadeeth would be??

This hadeeth doesn't clash with the earlier posted hadeeth as the earlier posted hadeeth says among others ....or a pious son, who prays for him . This is totally in accordance wiht the hadeeth which says read Ya Sin on your dead..

d0gers
19th September 2010, 14:52
Quran existed at the time of Prophet (PBUH), in tablet form and in the hearts of many huffaz.Yeah but how many huffaz and how many tablets are we talking about? Wouldn't it have been an inconvenience to round up whatever copies/people existed and shuttle them to the latest dead person's house?
We can pray for the departed but to call all our friends and relatives and have a Qur'aan Khaani for a deceased person really has no basis in Islam. Many people back then had much of the Qur'aan memorized so they could have done something like the Qur'aan Khaani too. You say there is no basis for it in Islam. But is there any basis for its opposition in Islam?

infinite786
19th September 2010, 14:54
Momo is absolutely right and the reason why these khatam's and qur'aan khaani's are so prevalent in Pakistan is because everyone thinks it's part of the Deen. It's shocking really because people in Pakistan inherited many things from the Hindu culture and they try to integrate that into Islam. (Not saying that these two ideas were influenced by the Hindu culture)


Your point is very true. It is the sole reason that we have teachers who are not influenced by culture but those who follow Qur'an and Sunnah.

Good Shayookh often have a lineage of teachers that go back direct to Rasulullah SAW. They can tell you who taught them, and who taught them, and who taugh them and the chain leads directly to Propeht (PBUH).

infinite786
19th September 2010, 14:59
Yeah but how many huffaz and how many tablets are we talking about? Wouldn't it have been an inconvenience to round up whatever copies/people existed and shuttle them to the latest dead person's house?

You say there is no basis for it in Islam. But is there any basis for its opposition in Islam?

Please look at my posts above. If it was practised by the Prophet (PBUH) then there would be hadith etc stating such and such but there is not.

As for its basis in islam, please take a look at my excerpt from the darul iftaa above. It provides a much more valuable insight into the topic.

infinite786
19th September 2010, 15:01
This is totally in accordance wiht the hadeeth which says read Ya Sin on your dead..

Yes but it doesnt say invite your fellow community and have a feast.
Which is what the topic starter was asking...no?

Momo
19th September 2010, 15:03
The Quranic verses in a post above are clear that you do dua for the dead one, then how can reading quran before that be a wrong thing, especially when its the family of the dead one doing the khatam(hadith about three things which benefit the dead one, aulad is one of it)
This is preciely how new things are added in deen.

Step 1: A is allowed and B is allowed
Step 2: If A and B both are allowed, how can A not be allowed before B?
Step 3: Let's do A and B together as a ritual when C happens
Step 4: Let's throw in some ahadees (either dubious in terms of authenticity, or some ingeneeous interpretations of the solid ones) in support of it for good measure

I present Exhibit X:

Quran says pray for the dead one, sunnah [sic] says send sawab upon the dead one, our relegion is complete with quran and sunnah, so our this issue is complete with the help of two source's added together.
And the bottom line is, "Chaleeswaan and Qul are valid religious activities which should be done fervently," I guess? Mission accomplished!

d0gers
19th September 2010, 15:03
Opportunities to read the Qur'an should definitely be encouraged. But not if it means adding things that don't belong to our deen. Means are as important as goals.

What we really need to encourage though is understanding Qur'an, not just reading it. Had we succeeded in doing that, questions like this wouldn't even have arisen as people would have known then that the Qur'an is a book of guidance and cure for the living, not blessing for the dead.


Written Qur'ans may not have been available then, but huffaaz were always there from day one. Had something like this happened, the tradition would have continued.Momo just to clarify where I'm coming from, I don't believe in these practices of soyems and quls etc. Personally I can't stand the smell of agarbatti!

But I also don't believe it's okay to forbid it for someone who wants to do it. Unless it has been expressly forbidden in Islam. On that front, I don't buy the reasoning that "it didn't happen during the Prophet's time therefore it is forbidden." Lots of things didn't happen during that time, purely due to circumstances. It doesn't mean that one can't do them.

Free Hit
19th September 2010, 15:05
Yes but it doesnt say invite your fellow community and have a feast.
Which is what the topic starter was asking...no?

so you are arguing on inviting people to the khatam or if the khatam should be done for the dead one?

Free Hit
19th September 2010, 15:08
This is preciely how new things are added in deen.

Step 1: A is allowed and B is allowed
Step 2: If A and B both are allowed, how can A not be allowed before B?Step 3: Let's do A and B together as a ritual when C happens
Step 4: Let's throw in some ahadees (either dubious in terms of authenticity, or some ingeneeous interpretations of the solid ones) in support of it for good measure

I present Exhibit X:

And the bottom line is, "Chaleeswaan and Qul are valid religious activities which should be done fervently," I guess? Mission accomplished!

emotion way of defence!

d0gers
19th September 2010, 15:09
Please look at my posts above. If it was practised by the Prophet (PBUH) then there would be hadith etc stating such and such but there is not. I don't buy this line of reasoning. If it was important enough to forbid then something would have been said. Simply the act of not doing it does not cut it for me.
As for its basis in islam, please take a look at my excerpt from the darul iftaa above. It provides a much more valuable insight into the topic.Reading through the excerpt in post #36 there is no reference to anything in the Quran or Hadeeth saying that something like this is expressly forbidden.

infinite786
19th September 2010, 15:14
so you are arguing on inviting people to the khatam or if the khatam should be done for the dead one?

This topic has gone off topic lol.

The original question was whether khatams are part of islam. Now Khatam just mean finish. If you mean you are finishing the Qur'an with the hope that the blessing goes to your deceased then i have no problem with that. However people also use Khatam to describe an event in which people are invited to recite the quran together and then eat.


Originally Posted by d0gers

You say there is no basis for it in Islam. But is there any basis for its opposition in Islam?

Please read this fatwa:


Quote:
Fatwa # 15892 from India Date: Tuesday, November 20th 2007
Category

Beliefs and Practices (Aqeedah)
Title
After somebody dead family member did fahatiya khawni and making lunch, for his sawab? Is it true in Islam, please explain.

Question


After somebody dead family member did fahatiya khawni and making lunch, for his sawab? Is it true in Islam, please explain.

Answer


In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Assalaamu `alaykum waRahmatullahi Wabarakatoh

It is an act of reward to send Isale Thawaab to the deceased. There is no specific way in sending Isale Thawaab for the mayyit. Shariah has left it upon the individual that whatever optional act he does, he may pass the reward over to the deceased. Having special gatherings and making Khatam is not established in the authentic works of Shariah. If it is a custom to follow the practice, then that will be an act of Bidah. Furthermore, these gatherings or Khatams turn out to be entertainment gatherings. The men mix freely with strange women and the purpose for gathering (Iesale Thawaab) is not fulfilled at all. Apart from this, there are many other non Shari’e activities that do take place.

In view of the above, it is better if such gatherings are not held nor attended. Every person should be encouraged to make Isale Thawaab individually. There should be no special time or gathering held for this purpose.

And Allah knows best

Wassalam

Muhammed Zakariyya Desai,

Checked and Approved by:

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...21451208eb8d0d

Free Hit
19th September 2010, 15:18
This topic has gone off topic lol.

The original question was whether khatams are part of islam. Now Khatam just mean finish. If you mean you are finishing the Qur'an with the hope that the blessing goes to your deceased then i have no problem with that. However people also use Khatam to describe an event in which people are invited to recite the quran together and then eat.



Please read this fatwa:


Quote:
Fatwa # 15892 from India Date: Tuesday, November 20th 2007
Category

Beliefs and Practices (Aqeedah)
Title
After somebody dead family member did fahatiya khawni and making lunch, for his sawab? Is it true in Islam, please explain.

Question


After somebody dead family member did fahatiya khawni and making lunch, for his sawab? Is it true in Islam, please explain.

Answer


In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Assalaamu `alaykum waRahmatullahi Wabarakatoh

It is an act of reward to send Isale Thawaab to the deceased. There is no specific way in sending Isale Thawaab for the mayyit. Shariah has left it upon the individual that whatever optional act he does, he may pass the reward over to the deceased. Having special gatherings and making Khatam is not established in the authentic works of Shariah. If it is a custom to follow the practice, then that will be an act of Bidah. Furthermore, these gatherings or Khatams turn out to be entertainment gatherings. The men mix freely with strange women and the purpose for gathering (Iesale Thawaab) is not fulfilled at all. Apart from this, there are many other non Shari’e activities that do take place.

In view of the above, it is better if such gatherings are not held nor attended. Every person should be encouraged to make Isale Thawaab individually. There should be no special time or gathering held for this purpose.

And Allah knows best

Wassalam

Muhammed Zakariyya Desai,

Checked and Approved by:

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...21451208eb8d0d

end of topic, after all the debates you are ok with khatam.

as to your reservations about calling people / giving food, is fairly basic/general concept, nothing wrong with it, it depends on if you can afford it or not, but relegion comes in if you believe in khatam or not.

Momo
19th September 2010, 15:20
The general definition of SUNNAH includes the prophet's (s.a.w) sayings, habits, practices and even His silent approvals I believe so how can you say this hadeeth isn't sunnah?
Hadees and Sunnah are COMPLETELY different things, but this might not be the best place to go into that debate. For the moment I will put that aside.


This hadeeth is recorded in three books as you can see and two of them are from siha sitta. Even if a hadeeth is dhaif it doesn't mean it is false, it's only due to discontinuity in the chain of narrators.
Yeah, and we know how little these "small" details matter. :inzi

In effect you are saying that there is no problem with a report that reached us by khabar-e-waahid, and which additionally has some missing links in its narrators. Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi raajioon.


Regarding your question about how the mentioned hadeeth automatically means that the dead will get the rewarded.
You, my brother, who put a lot of emhasis on logic factors, just tell me what the logical meaning of this hadeeth would be??
Well one meaning could be, read it so that you get guided. I am not saying it means this; I am not the one who brought this hadees as evidence. All I am saying is, there can be other meanings, and your argument isn't as coherent as you think it is.


This hadeeth doesn't clash with the earlier posted hadeeth as the earlier posted hadeeth says among others ....or a pious son, who prays for him . This is totally in accordance wiht the hadeeth which says read Ya Sin on your dead..
There's a difference between praying and reading Qur'an. You must not mix everything up casually.

d0gers
19th September 2010, 15:22
^Infinite, sorry yaar. You can't on one hand ask me to provide evidence in the Quran and Hadeeth that something is allowed, and on the other quote from some fatwa that it is forbidden. If you're asking me for Quran and Hadeeth then you yourself should be able to provide Quran and Hadeeth. The rules need to be the same for both sides.

Having said that, let's examine this fatwa:
It is an act of reward to send Isale Thawaab to the deceased. There is no specific way in sending Isale Thawaab for the mayyit. Shariah has left it upon the individual that whatever optional act he does, he may pass the reward over to the deceased. Cool. So having "optional acts" is okay. But then:
Having special gatherings and making Khatam is not established in the authentic works of Shariah. If it is a custom to follow the practice, then that will be an act of Bidah. What? You just said optional acts are okay. But then immediately discount an optional act? Where's the logic in that?
Furthermore, these gatherings or Khatams turn out to be entertainment gatherings. The men mix freely with strange women and the purpose for gathering (Iesale Thawaab) is not fulfilled at all. Apart from this, there are many other non Shari’e activities that do take place.:))) What stupidity is this. Men mix with strange women? What if I organize a khatam with separate sections for men and women? I'm sorry, this is very poor reasoning.

infinite786
19th September 2010, 15:23
end of topic, after all the debates you are ok with khatam.

as to your reservations about calling people / giving food, is fairly basic/general concept, nothing wrong with it, it depends on if you can afford it or not, but relegion comes in if you believe in khatam or not.

Lol

In prinicple there is nothing wrong with it, therefore i am okay with it.

But the point im trying to get across is when it becomes custom, like doing it after every 3/7/10/40 days of every deceased person or on the deathday of a person then it has become BID'AH because it is an innovation that was not practiced by the Prophet (PBUH)

Momo
19th September 2010, 15:24
I don't buy this line of reasoning. If it was important enough to forbid then something would have been said. Simply the act of not doing it does not cut it for me.
This is flawed reasoning. Anything that comes under the category of ibaadaat must have a sanction from Allah and his Rasool. This is fundamental stuff. It can be shown why it is so.

Free Hit
19th September 2010, 15:25
Lol

In prinicple there is nothing wrong with it, therefore i am okay with it.

But the point im trying to get across is when it becomes custom, like doing it after every 3/7/10/40 days of every deceased person or on the deathday of a person then it has become BID'AH because it is an innovation that was not practiced by the Prophet (PBUH)

am confused!:yk

DeadlyVenom
19th September 2010, 15:26
Did you read the post above your last post?

Salaam bro I have read that post now and it cannot be used as proof for khatam. Many prominent Islamic personalities died during the lifetime of our Rasool(saw) and these actions did not take place.

The hadith of surah yaseen being recited for the dead is considered weak by the scholars

The ayats of the Quran you posted again dont make any case for Khatam.
Neither do the Hadith. Yes they do prove that you should do good deeds so your parents are rewarded and inshallah we should all aim to do so.

infinite786
19th September 2010, 15:28
I'm sorry, this is very poor reasoning.

Please take note of the language the mufti has used in his fatwa. I thought it got the point across better than i was getting across so i posted it for your benefit.

When it becomes custom, like doing it after every 3/7/10/40 days of every deceased person or on the deathday of a person then it has become BID'AH because it is an innovation that was not practiced by the Prophet (PBUH)

The mufti states : Having special gatherings and making Khatam is not established in the authentic works of Shariah. If it is a custom to follow the practice, then that will be an act of Bidah.

It is not in Shariah. Not in Quran and not in Sunnah.

If it is allowed then bring the proof that it is customary to perform such events.

Momo
19th September 2010, 15:29
But I also don't believe it's okay to forbid it for someone who wants to do it. Unless it has been expressly forbidden in Islam. On that front, I don't buy the reasoning that "it didn't happen during the Prophet's time therefore it is forbidden."
Addressed above.


Lots of things didn't happen during that time, purely due to circumstances. It doesn't mean that one can't do them.
Please list a few.

d0gers
19th September 2010, 15:30
This is flawed reasoning. Anything that comes under the category of ibaadaat must have a sanction from Allah and his Rasool. This is fundamental stuff. It can be shown why it is so.By the same token if something is so absolutely incorrect and forbidden then something to that effect would exist in our instructions.

d0gers
19th September 2010, 15:39
Please list a few.Here's 4 things I think the Prophet didn't do but didn't expressly forbid us from doing either:

1) Ride a bicycle
2) Eat mangoes
3) Dye your hair purple
4) Watch a cricket match

infinite786
19th September 2010, 15:39
By the same token if something is so absolutely incorrect and forbidden then something to that effect would exist in our instructions.

(1) Of those who split up their religion (i.e. who left the true Islamic Monotheism), and became sects, [i.e. they invented new things in the religion (bid\'ah ), and followed their vain desires], each sect rejoicing in that which is with it.

( سورة الروم , Ar-Room, Chapter #30, Verse #32)

Explained that when khatam becomes a customary act it is bid'ah. And Bid'ah is forbidden as it means u leave true islamic monotheism. Refer to Quran Ayat above.

The owness of proof is on you to prove it is not bid'ah.

Momo
19th September 2010, 15:40
By the same token if something is so absolutely incorrect and forbidden then something to that effect would exist in our instructions.
This is absurd reasoning.

Let me give you an example: What if somebody was to say that we should do a somersault between ruku' and the first sajdah during all prayers (nauzubillah)?

Can you bring me something from hadees that says doing that will be wrong? Of course not. There are infinite number of stupid things like this that can be done, and there is no way the Rasool Allah could preempt and identify each and every stupid thing and say that it was wrong.

Therefore, in our religion, if something comes under the category of ibaadaat, the only things that are allowed are those that the Rasool Allah sanctioned. Anything else is not allowed.

And it makes sense in another way as well. To teach ibaadaat to his followers is one of the basic things a prophet does. To add or change ibaadaat after he is gone implies that (nauzubillah) he didn't do his job properly, and we are going to improve on the framework of ibaadaat that he built. That's absurd.

Free Hit
19th September 2010, 15:42
Addressed above.


Please list a few.

whichever things he is going to raise up, you are going to label it as shirk, biddah, pakistani culture! even though they all are going to be for the benefit and pro islamic. even you know the list then why ask!

Momo
19th September 2010, 15:42
Here's 4 things I think the Prophet didn't do but didn't expressly forbid us from doing either:

1) Ride a bicycle
2) Eat mangoes
3) Dye your hair purple
4) Watch a cricket match
Yes, and these things have nothing to do with ibaadaat, have they?

Outside of ibaadaat, the rule is the opposite: Anything that is forbidden explicitly is forbidden, and everything else is okay. The Rasool Allah didn't come to teach us engineering and food technology. Hope it makes sense.

This is pretty elementary stuff.

Free Hit
19th September 2010, 15:44
Here's 4 things I think the Prophet didn't do but didn't expressly forbid us from doing either:

1) Ride a bicycle
2) Eat mangoes
3) Dye your hair purple
4) Watch a cricket match

this is the problem, everything after the prophet PBUH, these people label it as biddah, where as it is proven by many scholars that their are two types of biddah.

Momo
19th September 2010, 15:44
whichever things he is going to raise up, you are going to label it as shirk, biddah, pakistani culture! even though they all are going to be for the benefit and pro islamic. even you know the list then why ask!
No I am not. For once, please read what I am posting instead of guessing in advance what I am going to post.

Let's not behave in a been there, done that way.

Momo
19th September 2010, 15:46
this is the problem, everything after the prophet PBUH, these people label it as biddah, where as it is proven by many scholars that their are two types of biddah.
This is not the problem. The problem is the lack of patience and humility on the part of Muslims - this "I know it all in advance and I don't need to read" attitude.

That's what's the problem.

DeadlyVenom
19th September 2010, 15:47
Here's 4 things I think the Prophet didn't do but didn't expressly forbid us from doing either:

1) Ride a bicycle
2) Eat mangoes
3) Dye your hair purple
4) Watch a cricket match

:))):))):))):))):))):)))

innovation in ISLAM bro not innovation in general!!

chacha_cricket
19th September 2010, 15:48
kisi molwi se poocho forums pe different fiqah ke log hote hein sab ke alag jawab hote hein.

infinite786
19th September 2010, 15:49
This is not the problem. The problem is the lack of patience and humility on the part of Muslims - this "I know it all in advance and I don't need to read" attitude.

That's what's the problem.

Superiority Complexes...and unfortuantely it is especially etched in Pakistani brains.

(Before every1 slates me im pakistani and its a real shame that people cant see the differences between deen and culture. )

Momo
19th September 2010, 15:50
kisi molwi se poocho forums pe different fiqah ke log hote hein sab ke alag jawab hote hein.
:)))

As if molvion ke fiqh aur firqe naheen hote. :moyo

d0gers
19th September 2010, 15:53
This is absurd reasoning.

Let me give you an example: What if somebody was to say that we should do a somersault between ruku' and the first sajdah during all prayers (nauzubillah)?

Can you bring me something from hadees that says doing that will be wrong? Of course not. There are infinite number of stupid things like this that can be done, and there is no way the Rasool Allah could preempt and identify each and every stupid thing and say that it was wrong.Point taken. Except I wouldn't necessarily equate reading the Quran and praying for someone who passed away as stupidity. Whereas common sense would indicate that doing somersaults during the namaz is stupidity.

Momo
19th September 2010, 15:56
Point taken. Except I wouldn't necessarily equate reading the Quran and praying for someone who passed away as stupidity. Whereas common sense would indicate that doing somersaults during the namaz is stupidity.
I didn't equate the two either. Was just making a general point using an analogy.

We are in complete agreement now. :)

Alam_dar
20th September 2010, 06:27
This is flawed reasoning. Anything that comes under the category of ibaadaat must have a sanction from Allah and his Rasool. This is fundamental stuff. It can be shown why it is so.

I am afraid we have to first discuss in details the concept of Bidah in Islam before going to the Topic of Isaal-e-Sawab.

May I invite you in new thread about discussion upon Real Concept of Bidah in Islam and ask you some counter questions?

After that, I will return to this old thread and continue the discussion upon Isaal-e-Sawad here.

Momo
20th September 2010, 06:49
I am afraid we have to first discuss in details the concept of Bidah in Islam before going to the Topic of Isaal-e-Sawab.

May I invite you in new thread about discussion upon Real Concept of Bidah in Islam and ask you some counter questions?

After that, I will return to this old thread and continue the discussion upon Isaal-e-Sawad here.
The topic of isaal-e-sawaab has been discussed in some detail on this thread, and so too the concept of innovation, which is related to it very intimately.

If you think there is something you need to point out, please do so here, while the proverbial iron is still hot.

That said, you are of course free to start any thread you like, although personally I don't think it is useful to have the same discussion on parallel threads.

Alam_dar
20th September 2010, 07:06
Then, does this hadees not clash with the following hadees that you yourself quoted above (in this very thread):

"Abu Huraira (Allah be well pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: When a man dies, his acts come to an end, but three, recurring charity, or knowledge (by which people) benefit, or a pious son, who prays for him (for the deceased) - Muslim"

as there's no mention of reading Qur'an by somebody else as one of the means by which the dead can still benefit?

Momo dear,

Problem is you are becoming very LITERAL in your approach and taking only and only one Tradition to come to a conclusion, while neglecting a lot of other Ahadith on this topic.

If you really want to come to any conclusion, the best way is to first Collect all the Material from Quran and Sunnah, otherwise you would make severe Mistakes.

I would discuss the Topic of BIDAH in separate thread with you, but some more traditions upon Isaal-e-Sawab for you so that you may understand that there are tens of other Traditions too and they are not contradicting each other while they describe additional things for Isaal-e-Sawab.





زندہ لوگوں کی دعا سے مرنے والوں کو نفع کا پہنچنا

سورۃ ابراھیم، آیت ۴۱:
ربنا اغفر لی والوالدی و للمومنین یوم یقوم الحساب
ترجمہ:
اے میرے رب مجھے بخش دے اور میرے ماں باپ کو اور سب مسلمانوں کو جس دن حساب ہو گا۔
پس معلوم ہوا کہ دعا سے نہ صرف گذرے ہوئے مومنین کو فائدہ پہنچتا ہے، بلکہ آنے والوں کو بھی اس کا فائدہ ہوتا ہے۔
سورۃ المومن، آیت ۷:
الذین یحملون العرش و من حولہ بحمد ربھم و یومنین بہ و یستغفرون للذین امنو۔
سورۃ الحشر، آیت ۱۰:
والذین جائو من بعدھم یقولون ربنا اغفرلنا ولا خواننا الذین سبقونا بالایمان۔
ترجمہ:
اور وہ جو اُن کے بعد آئے، عرض کرتے ہیں کے ہمارے رب ہمیں بخش دے اور ہمارے بھائیوں کو جو ہم سے پہلے ایمان لائے۔


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زندہ لوگوں کی جانب سے مرنے والے کے نام پر صدقہ و خیرات کرنا

صحیح بخاری، کتاب الجنائز:
عن عائشہ: ان رجلا قال للنبی: ان امی افتلتت نفسھا، و اظنھا لو تکلمت تصدقت، فھل لھا اجر ان تصدقت عنھا؟
قال: نعم۔
ترجمہ:
حضرت عائشہ سے مروی ہے کہ ایک آدمی رسول ﷺ کی بارگاہ میں حاضر ہو اور عرض کیا: میری والدہ اچانک فوت ہو گئی ہے۔ میرا خیال ہے کہ اگر وہ (بوقت نزع) گفتگو کر سکتی تو صدقہ کرتی۔ اگر میں اس کیطرف سے خیرات کروں تو کیا اسے ثواب پہنچے گا؟ آپ ﷺ نے فرمایا: ہاں۔
صحیح مسلم، کتب الوصیۃ، باب وصول ثواب الصدقات الی میت:
عن ابی ھریرۃ، ان رجلا قال للنبی: ان ابی مات وترک مالا و لم یوص فھل یکفر عنہ ان اتصدق عنہ؟ قال: نعم۔
ترجمہ:
ابو ھریرہ سے روایت ہے کہ رسول ﷺ کی خدمت میں ایک شخص نے عرض کیا: یا رسول اللہ ! میرے والد صاحب فوت ہو گئے ہیں اور انہوں نے مال چھوڑا ہے اور اس نے وصیت بھی نہیں کی اگر میں اس کی طرف سے صدقہ کروں تو کیا اس کے گناہ بخشے جائیں گے؟ رسول ﷺ نے فرمایا: ہاں۔


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مرنے والوں کی طرف سے روزے رکھ کر انہیں نفع پہنچانا

صحیح بخاری، کتاب الصوم :
عن عائشہ: ان رسول اللہ قال: من مات و علیہ صیام صام عنہ ولیہ۔
ترجمہ:
حضرت عائشہ سے مروی ہے کہ رسول ﷺ نے فرمایا: جو فوت ہو جائے اور اس کے ذمہ روزے ہوں تو اس کا ولی اس کی طرف سے وہ روزے رکھے ۔


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مرنے والوں کی طرف سے حج کر کے انہیں نفع پہنچانا

صحیح بخاری، کتاب الاحصار و جزا الصید، باب الحج و النذور عن المیت، و الرجل یحج عن المراۃ:
عن ابن عباس: ان امراۃ من جھینۃ، جاءت الی النبی فقالت: ان امی نذرت ان تحج، فلم تحج حتی ماتت افا حج عنھا؟ قال: نعم حجی عنھا ارایت لو کان علی امک دین اکنت قاضیتہ؟ اقضو اللہ ، فاللہ احق بالوفاء۔
ترجمہ:
حضرت ابن عباس سے روایت ہے کہ (قبیلہ) جہنیہ کی ایک عورت نے رسول ﷺ کی بارگاہ میں حاضر ہو کر عرض کیا: میری والدہ نے حج کی منت مانی تھی لیکن وہ حج نہ کر سکی یہاں تک کہ فوت ہو گئی۔ کیا میں اس کی طرف سے حج کروں؟ فرمایا: ہاں تم اس کی طرف سے حج کرو۔ بھلا بتاؤ تو اگر تمہاری والدہ پر قرض ہوتا تو کیا تم اسے ادا نہیں کرتیں؟ اللہ تعالیٰ اس بات کا زیادہ حقدار ہے کہ اُس کا قرض ادا کیا جائے۔

سنن ترمذی، کتاب الزکاۃ عن رسول اللہ، باب: ما جاہ فی الصدقہ عن المیت:
عن ابن عباس عنھما ان رجل قال: یا رسول اللہ ان امی توفیت افینفعھا ان تصدقت عنھا؟ قال نعم، قال: فان مخرفا فاشھدک انی قد تصدقت بہ عنھا۔
ترجمہ:
حضرت عبد اللہ ابن عباس (رضی اللہ عنہ) سے روایت ہے کہ ایک شخص نے عرض کیا: یا رسول اللہ! میری والدہ فوت ہو چکی ہے ۔ اگر میں اس کی طرف سے صدقہ دوں تو کیا وہ اسے نفع دے گا؟ رسول ﷺ نے فرمایا ہاں۔ اُس نے عرض کیا: میرے پاس ایک باغ ہے ۔ آپ گواہ رہیں کہ میں نے یہ باغ اُس کی طرف سے صدقہ کر دیا۔
مزید حوالہ جات:
سنن ابو داؤد، کتاب الوصایا، باب ما جاء فیمن مات وصیۃ یتصدق عنہ
ؕؕؕ سنن نسائی، کتاب الوصایا، باب فضل الصدقہ عن المیت

سنن نسائی، کتاب الوصایا، باب ذکر اختلاف علی سفیان:
عن سعد بن عبادۃ ان امہ ماتت فقال: یا رسول اللہ ان امی ماتت، افا تصدق عنھا؟ قال: نعم قال: فای الصدقۃ افضل؟ قال: سقی الماء فتلک سقایۃ سعد او آلِ سعد بالمدینۃ۔
ترجمہ:
حضرت سعد بن عبادہ روایت کرتے ہیں کہ ان کی والدہ فوت ہو گئیں۔ انہوں نے عرض کی: یا رسول اللہ ﷺ ! میری والدہ فوت ہو گئی ہیں۔ کیا میں اُن کی طرف سے صدقہ کر سکتا ہوں؟ فرمایا: ہاں! انہوں نے عرض کیا: تو کونسا صدقہ بہتر رہے گا؟ فرمایا: پانی پلانا۔ پس یہ ہے مدینہ منورہ میں سعد یا آلِ سعد کی پانی کی سبیل۔
مزید حوالہ جات:
۔ سنن ابن ماجہ، کتاب الادب، باب فضل صدقہ الماء۔
۔ مسند احمد بن حنبل، جلد ۵، صفحہ 287، حدیث ۲۲۰۱۲

سنن ابو داؤد، کتاب الزکوۃ، باب فی فضل سقی الماء:
عن سعد بن عبادۃ انہ قال: یا رسول اللہ ان ام سعد ماتت فای الصدقۃ افضل؟ قال: الماء، قال: فحفر بئرا و قال: ھذہ الام سعد
ترجمہ:
حضرت سعد سے مروی ہے کہ انہوں نے رسول ﷺ کی خدمت میں عرض کیا: یا رسول اللہ! ام سعد کا انتقال ہو گیا ہے۔ سو کون سا صدقہ افضل ہے۔ فرمایا: پانی ۔ تو انہوں نے ایک کنواں کھدوایا اور کہا: یہ ام سعد کا کنواں ہے۔


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مرنے والوں یا زندہ لوگوں کے لیے نماز پڑھ کر انہیں ایصالِ ثواب کرنا

سنن ابو داؤد، الملاحم ، فی ذکر البصرہ:
‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن المثنى ‏ ‏حدثني ‏ ‏إبراهيم بن صالح بن درهم ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏أبي ‏ ‏يقول ‏‏انطلقنا حاجين فإذا رجل فقال لنا إلى جنبكم قرية يقال لها ‏ ‏الأبلة ‏ ‏قلنا نعم قال من يضمن لي منكم أن يصلي لي في ‏ ‏مسجد العشار ‏ ‏ركعتين أو أربعا ويقول هذه ‏ ‏لأبي هريرة ‏ ‏سمعت خليلي رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏إن الله يبعث من ‏ ‏مسجد العشار ‏ ‏يوم القيامة شهداء لا يقوم مع شهداء ‏ ‏بدر ‏ ‏غيرهم ‏‏قال ‏ ‏أبو داود ‏ ‏هذا المسجد مما ‏ ‏يلي ‏ ‏النهر
ترجمہ
ابراہیم صالح کہتے ہیں کہ میں نے اپنے والد کو کہتے سنا کہ ہ حج کے ارادے سے نکلے تو ایک شخص (یعنی ابو ھریرہ) ملے اور کہنے لگے: تمہاری ایک بستی ہے جس کا نام ابلۃ ہے؟ ہم نے کہا ہاں۔ فرمایا تم مین سے کون مجھے اس بات کی ضمانت دیتا ہے کہ وہ مسجدِ عشار میں دو یا چار رکعتیں نماز ادا کرے اور کہے کہ اس نماز کا ثواب ابو ہریرہ کے لیے ہے؟ میں نے اپنے خلیل ابو القاسم (یعنی رسول ﷺ) سے سنا ہے کہ بیشک مسجد عشار سے قیامت کے دن اللہ ایسے شہیدوں کو اٹھائے گا کہ سوائے شہداء بدر کے اور کوئی ان کا ہم سر نہ ہو گا۔


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دوسروں کے نام پر جانور کی قربانی دینا

صحیح مسلم، کتاب الاضاحی، حدیث 3637 (عربی ورژن)، حدیث 4845 (انگریزی ورژن)
حَدَّثَنَا هَارُونُ بْنُ مَعْرُوفٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ وَهْبٍ، قَالَ قَالَ حَيْوَةُ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبُو صَخْرٍ، عَنْ يَزِيدَ بْنِ قُسَيْطٍ، عَنْ عُرْوَةَ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَمَرَ بِكَبْشٍ أَقْرَنَ يَطَأُ فِي سَوَادٍ وَيَبْرُكُ فِي سَوَادٍ وَيَنْظُرُ فِي سَوَادٍ فَأُتِيَ بِهِ لِيُضَحِّيَ بِهِ فَقَالَ لَهَا ‏"‏ يَا عَائِشَةُ هَلُمِّي الْمُدْيَةَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ اشْحَذِيهَا بِحَجَرٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَفَعَلَتْ ثُمَّ أَخَذَهَا وَأَخَذَ الْكَبْشَ فَأَضْجَعَهُ ثُمَّ ذَبَحَهُ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ بِاسْمِ اللَّهِ اللَّهُمَّ تَقَبَّلْ مِنْ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَمِنْ أُمَّةِ مُحَمَّدٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ ضَحَّى بِهِ ‏.
ترجمہ:
رسول اللہ ﷺ نے حضرت عائشہ کو حکم دی اکہ ایک کالی ٹانگوں والا بھیڑ کا بچہ لایا جائے، جس کا پیٹ بھی کالا ہو اور جس کی آنکھوں کے گرد کالے حلقے ہوں تاکہ وہ اُس کی قربانی کر سکیں۔ پھر رسول ﷺ نے حضرت عائشہ سے فرمایا: مجھے ایک بڑی چھری دو اور ایک پتھر پر اس کی دھار لگاؤ۔ حضرت عائشہ نے یہ کر دیا۔ پھر رسول ﷺ نے چاقو اور بچھڑے کو لیا، اُسے زمین پر لٹایا اور پھر یہ الفاظ ادا کرتے ہوئے اُسے ذبح فرمایا: "بسم اللہ، اللھم تقبل من محمد و آلِ محمد و من امتی محمد" (یعنی اے اللہ! اس قربانی کو قبول فرما محمد کی طرف سے اور آلِ محمد کی طرف سے اور امتِ محمد کی طرف سے)۔


سنن ابو داؤد، حدیث ۲۷۹۰
حنش بیان کرتے ہیں کہ میں نے علی ابن ابی طالب کو دیکھا کہ وہ دو مینڈھے قربان کر رہے ہیں۔ میں نے پوچھا: یہ کیا ہے؟ اس پر علی ابن ابی طالب نے فرمایا: مجھے رسول ﷺ نے وصیت کی تھی کہ میں ان کی طرف سے قربانی کروں۔ چنانچہ میں ان کی طرف سے قربانی کرتا ہوں۔


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مرنے والوں کے اپنے ایسے نیک اعمال جو کہ صدقہ جاریہ کی صورت میں انہیں نفع پہنچاتے رہتے ہیں
صحیح مسلم، کتاب الوصیۃ، باب ما یلحق الانسان من الثواب بعد الوفاتۃ:
عن ابی ھریرۃ: ان رسول اللہ قال: اذا مات الانسان انقطع عنہ عملہ الا من ثلاثۃ: الا من صدقۃ جاریۃ۔ او علم ینتفع بہ۔ او ولد صالح یدعو لہ۔
ترجمہ:
ابو ھریرۃ سے مروی ہے کہ رسول ﷺ نے فرمایا: جب انسان مر جاتا ہے تو اس کے اعمال کا سلسلہ ختم ہو جاتا ہے سوائے تین چیزوں کے (ان کا اجرا سے برابر ملتا رہتا ہے) ایک وہ صدقہ جس کا نفع جاری رہے، دوسرا وہ علم جس سے فائدہ اٹھایا جائے،تیسری وہ نیک اولاد جو اس کے لئے دعا کرے۔


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نمازِ جنازہ ادا کر کے مرنے والوں کو نفع پہنچانا

۔ صحیح مسلم میں نمازِ جنازہ کا مکمل باب اس بات کی گواہی ہے اور اس میں آپ کو نمازِ جنازہ کی دعائیں ملیں گی جس میں لوگ میت کے لئے استغفار کرتے ہیں۔
اور اسی باب میں رسول ﷺ کی احادیث ہیں جس میں آپ نے فرمایا ہے کہ اگر کسی میت پر چالیس مسلمانوں نے نمازِ جنازہ ادا کر دی تو وہ میت بخشی جائے گی (کچھ روایات میں یہ تعداد کم کر بیس یا تیس تک بھی بتائی گئی ہے)۔


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قبر پر سبز ٹہنی کا لگانا

صحیح بخاری، کتاب الوضو اور کتاب الادب:
ابن عباس سے روایت ہے:
ایک دن رسول ﷺ قبرستان سے گذر رہے تھے کہ آپﷺ نے دو آدمیوں کی آوازیں سنی جن پر عذاب ہو رہا تھا۔ رسول ﷺ نے فرمایا: ان دونوں پر عذاب اس لیے ہو رہا ہے کیونکہ یہ گناہانِ کبیرہ سے نہیں بچتے تھے۔ ۔۔۔ پھر رسول ﷺ نے کھجور کے درخت کی اسی سر سبز شاخ منگوائی ، اسے ٹکروں میں تقسیم کیا اور دونوں قبروں پر نصب کر دیا۔ جب رسول ﷺ سے پوچھا گیا کہ انہوں نے ایسا کیوں کیا، تو آپ ﷺ نے فرمایا کہ مجھے امید ہے کہ جبتک یہ شاخیں خشک نہیں ہو جاتیں، اُس وقت تک ان کے عذاب میں کچھ تخفیف رہے گی۔ رسول ﷺ کی وہ روایت جس میں آپ نے ایک قبر پر ایک درخت کی ٹہنی نصب کر دی تھی اور فرمایا تھا کہ جب تک وہ ٹہنی سبز رہے گی، اُس شخص کو عذاب میں تخفیف رہے گی


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رسول ﷺ کو کفار اور منافقین کی قبروں پر کھڑے ہو نے کی ممانعت

قران کی وہ آیت جس میں رسول ﷺ کو کفار کی قبروں کے پاس کھڑے ہونے اور اُن کے لیے استغفار کرنے سے منع فرمایا گیا تھا کیونکہ جس جگہ رسول ﷺ کھڑے ہو جاتے تھے، وہاں برکتوں کا نزول شروع ہو جاتا تھا۔
سورۃ توبہ، آیت ۸۴
وَلاَ تُصَلِّ عَلَى أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُم مَّاتَ أَبَدًا وَلاَ تَقُمْ عَلَىَ قَبْرِهِ إِنَّهُمْ كَفَرُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَمَاتُواْ وَهُمْ فَاسِقُونَ
ترجمہ:
ان میں سے کوئی مر جائے تو آپ اس کے جنازے کی ہرگز نماز نہ پڑھیں اور نہ ہی اس کی قبر پر کھڑے ہوں۔
جس طرح نمازِ جنازہ پڑھنے سے مرنے والے کو نفع پہنچتا ہے، اسی طرح رسول ﷺ کا قبور پر کھڑے ہونے کی وجہ سے اُس جگہ برکت برسنا شروع ہو جاتی تھی اور مرنے والے کو اس کا نفع پہنچتا تھا۔ لہذا اس آیتِ مبارکہ میں اللہ نے رسول ﷺ کو کفار و منافقین کے لیے یہ دونوں کام کرنے سے منع فرمایا۔


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رسول اللہ ﷺ کے بال کی برکت سے مرنے کے بعد نفع پہنچانا

کتاب الاصابہ فی تمیز الصحابہ:
71:1 ثابت البنانی بیان کرتے ہیں کہ مجھے حضرت انس نے فرمایا:
یہ اللہ کے پیارے رسول ﷺ کا ایک بال مبارک ہے ۔پس تم اسے میری زبان کے نیچے رکھ دینا۔ وہ کہتے ہی میں نے وہ بال ان کی زبان کے نیچے رکھ دیا اور انہیں اس حال میں دفنایا گیا کہ وہ بال ان کی زبان کے نیچے تھا۔
پس ثابت ہوا کہ اپنے اعمال کے ساتھ ساتھ رسول ﷺ کے تبرکات بھی مرنے کے بعد نفع کا باعث ہوتے ہیں۔


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رسولﷺ کی پہنی ہوئی چادر سے مرنے کے بعد نفع حاصل کرنا

صحیح بخاری، کتاب الجنائز، ترجمہ از اہلحدیث عالم، مولانا وحید الزمان خان صاحب
ہم سے عبد اللہ بن مسلمہ نے بیان کیا کہا ہم سے عبد العزیز بن ابی حازم نے انہوں نے اپنے باپ سے انہوں نے سہل بن سعد ساعدی سے کہ ایک عورت آنحضرتﷺ کے پاس آئی اور ایک بنی ہوئی حاشیہ دار چادر آپﷺ کے لئے تحفہ لائی۔ تم جانتے ہو چادر کیا ہے؟ لوگوں نے کہا شملہ، سہل نے کہا ہاں شملہ۔ خیر وہ کہنے لگی یہ میں نے اپنےہاتھ سے بنی ہے اور میں اس لئے لائی ہوں کہ آپﷺ اس کو پہنیں۔ آنحضرتﷺ کو چادر کی اس وقت احتیاج تھی۔ آپﷺ نے لے لی۔ باہر نکلے تو اسی کی تہ بند باندھے ہوئے ایک شخص (عبدالرحمن بن عوف) کہنے لگے کیا عمدہ چادر ہے۔ یہ مجھ کو عنایت کیجیئے۔ لوگوں نے عبد الرحمن سے کہا تم نے اچھا نہیں کیا۔ تم جانتے ہو کہ آنحضرتﷺ کو چادر کی ضرورت تھی۔ آپﷺ نے اس کو پہن لیا پھر تم نے کیسے مانگی؟ تم یہ بھی جانتے ہو کہ آپﷺ کسی کا سوال رد نہیں کرتے۔ عبدالرحمن نے کہا خدا کی قسم! میں نے پہننے کے لئے نہیں مانگی بلکہ میں (نے اس لئے مانگی کہ) اس کو اپنا کفن کروں گا۔ سہل نے کہا پھر وہ ان کے کفن میں شریک ہوئی#

اسی طرح کی ایک حدیث یہ بھی ہے کہہ:
جب شیرِ خدا مولا علی (علیہ السلام) کی والدہ ماجدہ حضرت فاطمہ بنت اسد کا انتقال ہوا تو رسول ﷺ نے ان کی تجہیز و تکفین کے لیے خصوصی اہتمام فرمایا۔ غسل کے بعد جب انہیں قمیص پہنانے کا موقع آیا تو رسول ﷺ نے اپنا کرتہ مبارک عورتوں کو عطا فرمایا اور حکم دیا کہ یہ کرتہ پہنا کر اوپر کفن لپیٹ دیں۔
حوالہ جات:
1.المعجم لاکیبر للطبرانی 24:2
2.الاستیعاب ابن عبد البر 282:4
3.اسد الغابہ 213:7
4.الاصابہ فہ تمیز الصحابہ 380:4



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حضورﷺ کے پسینہ مبارک سے مرنے کے بعد نفع اٹھانا

صحیح بخاری، کتاب الاستئذان، ترجمہ از اہلحدیث عالم، مولانا وحید الزمان
ہم سے قتیبہ بن سعید نے بیان کیا، کیا ہم سے محمد بن عبداللہ انصاری نےکہا مجھ سے میرے والد نے انہوں نے ثمامہ سے انہوں نے انس سے، کہ ام سلیم (ان کی والدہ) آنحضرتﷺ کے لئے ایک چمڑا بچھاتیں۔ آپﷺ اسی چمڑے پر ان کے پاس دن کو سو رہتے۔ جب آپﷺ سو جاتے تو ام سلیم کیا کرتیں، آپﷺ کے بدن کا پسینہ اور بالوں کو لیکر ایک شیشی میں ڈالتیں اور خوشبو میں ملا لیتیں (برکت کے لئے)۔ آپﷺ سوتے رہتے، ثمامہ کہتے ہیں جب حضرت انس مرنے لگے تو انہوں نے وصیت کی اُن کے کفن پر وہی خوشبو لگائی جائے، آخر وہی خوشبو اُن کے کفن پر لگائی گئی۔



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صحابی کا حضورﷺ کے عصا مبارک کو قبر میں حصولِ برکت کے لیے ساتھ رکھ کر دفن ہونا

مسند احمد بن حنبل، جلد 3
قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ هَارُونَ، قَالَ اَخْبَرَنَا هَمَّامُ بْنُ يَحْيَى، عَنِ الْقَاسِمِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْوَاحِدِ الْمَكِّيِّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَقِيلٍ، اَنَّهُ سَمِعَ جَابِرَ بْنَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، يَقُولُ بَلَغَنِي حَدِيثٌ عَنْ رَجُلٍ، سَمِعَهُ مِنْ، رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّ قَدِمْتُ عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَرَانِي فَقَالَ اَفْلَحَ الْوَجْهُ قَالَ قُلْتُ قَتَلْتُهُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ صَدَقْتَ قَالَ ثُمَّ قَامَ مَعِي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَدَخَلَ فِي بَيْتِهِ فَاَعْطَانِي عَصًا فَقَالَ اَمْسِكْ هَذِهِ عِنْدَكَ يَا عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ اُنَيْسٍ قَالَ فَخَرَجْتُ بِهَا عَلَى النَّاسِ فَقَالُوا مَا هَذِهِ الْعَصَا قَالَ قُلْتُ اَعْطَانِيهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَاَمَرَنِي اَنْ اَمْسِكَهَا قَالُوا اَوَلَا تَرْجِعُ اِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَتَسْاَلَهُ عَنْ ذَلِكَ قَالَ فَرَجَعْتُ اِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ لِمَ اَعْطَيْتَنِي هَذِهِ الْعَصَا قَالَ ايَةٌ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ اِنَّ اَقَلَّ النَّاسِ الْمُتَخَصِّرُونَ يَوْمَئِذٍ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَقَرَنَهَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بِسَيْفِهِ فَلَمْ تَزَلْ مَعَهُ حَتَّى اِذَا مَاتَ اَمَرَ بِهَا فَصُبَّتْ مَعَهُ فِي كَفَنِهِ ثُمَّ دُفِنَا جَمِيعًا
ترجمہ:
عبداللہ بن انیس اپنے والد سے روایت کرتے ہیں کہ انہوں نے کہا:
جب میں نبیﷺ کی بارگاہ میں حاضر ہوا تو نبیﷺ نے مجھے دیکھ کر فرمایا: کامیاب ہونے والا چہرہ۔ کہتے ہیں کہ میں نے عرض کیا: یا رسول اللہ! میں نے اس (خالد بن سفیان) کو قتل کر دیا ہے۔ تو اس پر رسولﷺ نے فرمایا: تو نے سچ کہا۔ پھر رسولﷺ میرے ساتھ کھڑے ہوئے اور اپنے کاشانہ اقدس میں تشریف لے گئے اور مجھے عصا عطا کیا اور فرمایا: اے عبداللہ! اسے اپنے پاس رکھ۔ تو جب میں یہ عصا لیکر لوگوں کے سامنے نکلا تو انہوں نے کہا کہ یہ عصا کیا ہے؟ تو کہتے ہیں کہ میں نے کہا: یہ مجھے رسولﷺ نے عطا کیا ہے اور مجھے حکم دیا ہے کہ اسے اپنے پاس رکھوں۔ تو لوگوں نے مجھے کہا: کہا تم اسے رسولﷺ کو واپس نہیں کرو گے، تم اس کے متعلق رسولﷺ سے پوچھو؟ تو عبداللہ بن انیس کہتے ہیں کہ میں نبیﷺ کی خدمت میں حضر ہوا اور عرض کیا: اے اللہ کے رسولﷺ! یہ عصا مبارک آپ نے مجھے کس لیے عطا کیا ہے؟ آپﷺ نے فرمایا: قیامت کے روز یہ تیرے اور میرے درمیان ایک نشانی ہو گی کہ جس دن بہت کم لوگ کسی کے ساتھ تعاون کرنے والے ہوں گے۔ عبداللہ نے اس عصا کو اپنی تلوار کے ساتھ باندھ لیا اور وہ ہمیشہ ان کے پاس رہتا یہاں تک کہ ان کا وصال ہو گیا۔ انہوں نے عصا کے متعلق وصیت کی تھی کہ اس کو میرے کفن میں رکھ دیا جائے۔ تو جب ان کا انتقال ہوا تو ہم نے ان کو اکھٹے دفن کر دیا۔
انس بن مالک سے ایک اور روایت ہے:
البدایہ وا لنہایہ
حدثنا ابو شيبة ابراهيم بن عبد الله بن محمد، ثنا مخول بن ابراهيم، ثنا اسرائيل عن عاصم، عن محمد بن سيرين، عن انس بن مالك انه كانت عنده عصية لرسول الله صلَّى الله عليه وسلَّم فمات فدفنت معه بين جنبه وبين قميصه‏
ترجمہ:
کہ ان کے پاس رسولﷺ کی ایک چھوٹی سی چھڑی تھی، جب وہ فوت ہوئے تو وہ چھڑی ان کے ساتھ ان کی قمیص اور پہلو کے درمیان دفن کی گئی۔
پس ثابت ہوا کہ اپنے اعمال کے ساتھ ساتھ رسول ﷺ کی تبرکات بھی مرنے کے بعد فائدہ دیتے رہتے ہیں۔
المختصر، یہ تمام احادیث ثابت کرتی ہیں کہ مرنے والوں کو نیک اعمال کا ثواب پہنچتا رہتا ہے اور اُن کے درجات میں اضافہ ہوتا جاتا ہے۔ یہ اعمال چاہے استغفار کی صورت میں ہوں، یا پھر مالی صدقہ یا روزہ اور حج جیسی عبادات، ان تمام چیزوں کی شریعت میں عام اجازت ہے۔

Free Hit
20th September 2010, 07:08
how pity, my urdu is bad! :afridi

Momo
20th September 2010, 07:21
^Alam_dar:

I will first have to ask what I asked IAJ in a post above (#19):


IAJ, before you provide evidence, can you please state clearly what it is that you are trying to prove in the first place?

There are two additional requests:

1. What you are trying to prove should be relevant to the topic of this thread.
2. Show and tell. Your evidence should prove what you claimed you were going to prove, and not something else.

Thank you.

And additionally I will ask you to do away with verbose copy-paste jobs and be to the point (the first two points will help you to be specific when it comes to presenting evidence).

Nobody can read the kind of copy-paste jobs (which are for the most part irrelevant in addition to being gigantic in size) that you post.

Thank you.

PakPassionate
20th September 2010, 08:12
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

U are right..........

Alam_dar
20th September 2010, 09:27
^Alam_dar:

I will first have to ask what I asked IAJ in a post above (#19):



And additionally I will ask you to do away with verbose copy-paste jobs and be to the point (the first two points will help you to be specific when it comes to presenting evidence).

Nobody can read the kind of copy-paste jobs (which are for the most part irrelevant in addition to being gigantic in size) that you post.

Thank you.

Dear Momo, I thought I made it very clear why I am posting these Additional Ahadith on this Subject when I wrote:


Problem is you are becoming very LITERAL in your approach and taking only and only one Tradition to come to a conclusion, while neglecting a lot of other Ahadith on this topic.

If you really want to come to any conclusion, the best way is to first Collect all the Material from Quran and Sunnah, otherwise you would make severe Mistakes.

For example, you wrote:

Momo:As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

Now all the above mentioned Ahadith are contradicting your above statement and proving without any doubt that there are many way of doing Ibadaat and giving alms and feeding the poor etc with the intention of transferring it's Sawab to the dead person.

I am sorry for the big size of Post, but you must understand there is no other way when we are trying to conclude some decision upon an Issue. We could do justice to any Issue if we bring all the PROOFs and Ahadith regarding this Issue. You could see all these Ahadith are related to Isaal-e-Sawab and contrary to approach of sticking to Single Hadith, they are telling there are several other ways too for doing Isaal-e-Sawab to the Dead.

The conclusion of these Ahadith is this that Isaal-e-Sawab is not only related to the three things mentioned in that Hadith, but the BASIC Rule is this that all kind of Good Actions could be done with intention of benefiting others (Dead). Either it is doing Hajj in their name, or Fasting in their name (i.e. Ibadaat), or doing Namaz for them (like in Hadith of Abu Hurayrah), or giving alms or giving away a Well of water in their name.

And Quran is also Zikr (Ibadat), and no where in Sharia it is prohibited to not to do this Ibadat with intention of sending Sawab to the Dead.

If you deny this Basic Rule, then what do you have to say about this Action of Hazrat Abu Hurayra:


مرنے والوں یا زندہ لوگوں کے لیے نماز پڑھ کر انہیں ایصالِ ثواب کرنا

سنن ابو داؤد، الملاحم ، فی ذکر البصرہ:
‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن المثنى ‏ ‏حدثني ‏ ‏إبراهيم بن صالح بن درهم ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏أبي ‏ ‏يقول ‏‏انطلقنا حاجين فإذا رجل فقال لنا إلى جنبكم قرية يقال لها ‏ ‏الأبلة ‏ ‏قلنا نعم قال من يضمن لي منكم أن يصلي لي في ‏ ‏مسجد العشار ‏ ‏ركعتين أو أربعا ويقول هذه ‏ ‏لأبي هريرة ‏ ‏سمعت خليلي رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏إن الله يبعث من ‏ ‏مسجد العشار ‏ ‏يوم القيامة شهداء لا يقوم مع شهداء ‏ ‏بدر ‏ ‏غيرهم ‏‏قال ‏ ‏أبو داود ‏ ‏هذا المسجد مما ‏ ‏يلي ‏ ‏النهر
ترجمہ
ابراہیم صالح کہتے ہیں کہ میں نے اپنے والد کو کہتے سنا کہ ہ حج کے ارادے سے نکلے تو ایک شخص (یعنی ابو ھریرہ) ملے اور کہنے لگے: تمہاری ایک بستی ہے جس کا نام ابلۃ ہے؟ ہم نے کہا ہاں۔ فرمایا تم مین سے کون مجھے اس بات کی ضمانت دیتا ہے کہ وہ مسجدِ عشار میں دو یا چار رکعتیں نماز ادا کرے اور کہے کہ اس نماز کا ثواب ابو ہریرہ کے لیے ہے؟ میں نے اپنے خلیل ابو القاسم (یعنی رسول ﷺ) سے سنا ہے کہ بیشک مسجد عشار سے قیامت کے دن اللہ ایسے شہیدوں کو اٹھائے گا کہ سوائے شہداء بدر کے اور کوئی ان کا ہم سر نہ ہو گا۔


Don't you see the problem in your definition of Bidah that if we have to believe that ever New Action is Bidah, then this Sahabi would also become innovator.

Very necessary thing is to understand the concept of "MUBAH" in Islam. There are things which are made Halal by taking the particular name, but there are things which are made Mubah according to the "Basic Rule".

The concept of Mubah in Islam is this Any Good Action (old or new) is Halal. The only condition is it should not be contrary to any Specific Quran Order of against any Established Sunnah.

For example, established Sunnah is that Fajr Prayer is 2 Rakah. But if any person tries to change this Established Sunnah and say No he will pray 4 Rakah for more Reward, then it is Haram. But if any person says that he want to pray 1000 Rakah NAFL prayer during night, then it is MUBAH (regardless of the fact if Prophet pbuh himself earlier prayed 1000 Rakah or not, or he ordered it or not).

Legal Eye
20th September 2010, 09:30
the basis of the khuttum is cultural, not religious. It was something both muslims and hindus did pre-partition, and it is continued to now.

Alam_dar
20th September 2010, 09:43
the basis of the khuttum is cultural, not religious. It was something both muslims and hindus did pre-partition, and it is continued to now.

I am afraid there is a lot of false propaganda going along. You claim that this practice is taken from Hindus. My question is, do you know the whole History of this Issue? There are hundreds of Fatwas from centuries old Ulama (Arab Ulama who have no contact with Hindus) where they came to the conclusion that this practice is allowed. Do you blame them too for being impressed by Hindus?

Here is one Fatwa by Ibn Taymiyyah (I do hope you know him):


ابن تیمیہ:
قران خوانی اور صدقہ وغیرہ ھما اعمال صالحہ میں سے (اہلِ قبور کو) مالی عبادات کا ثواب پہنچنے میں علماء اہل سنت و الجماعت کے درمیان کوئی اختلاف نہیں ہے جیسے صدقہ اور عتق (غلام کو آزاد کرنا) جس طرح کہ دعا و استغفار (کا ثواب) بھی فوت شدہ کو پہنچتا ہے اور اس نماز یعنی نماز جنازہ کا (ثواب بھی) اور قبر کے نزدیک دعا کرنے کا ثواب بھی (میت کو پہنچتا ہے) اور اختلاف کیا ہے علماء نے اعمال بدنیہ کے پہنچنے میں جیسے روزہ، نماز اور قران خوانی۔ اور حق یہ ہے کہ سب اعمال (کا ثواب مالی ہو یا بدنی)میت کو پہنچتا ہے۔ بخاری و مسلم میں حضور ﷺ سے ثابت ہے کہ آپ نے فرمایا جو شخص فوت ہوا اور اس کے ذمے روزے ہوں تو اس کی طرف فے اس کا ولی روزے رکھے اور یہ بھی رسول سے ثابت ہے کہ ایک عورت جس کی ماں فوت ہو گئی تھی اور اس پر روزہ تھا رسول ﷺ نے اسے حکم دیا کہ وہ اپنی ماں کی طرف سے روزہ رکھے اور رسول ﷺ سے روایت ہے کہ آپ نے حضرت عمر بن عاص کو فرمایا اگر تیرا باپ مسلمان ہوتا اور تو اس کی طرف سے صدقہ کرتا یا روزہ رکھتا یا اس کی طرف سے غلام آزاد کرتا تو اسے ان اعمال سے نفع ہوتا اور یہ مذہب امام احمد اور امام ابو حنیفہ کا اور امام مالک اور امام شافعی کے اصحاب کے ایک گروہ کا ہے (اور آیتِ قران و ان لیس الانسان الا ما سعی) سے جو بعض دلیل پکڑتے ہیں عدم وصولِ ثواب پر تو جوابا ان سے کہا جائے گا کہ تحقیق یہ بات سنتِ متواترہ سے ثابت ہے کہ میت پر نماز جنازہ پڑھی جاتی ہے اس کے لیے دعا کی جاتی ہے اور اس کے لیےمغفرت طلب کی جاتی ہے اور یہ سب کچھ اُس کی غیر سعی ہے۔
(فتاوی ابن تیمیہ، جلد ۲۴، صفحہ ۳۹۷)


There are lot of other fatwas too, but I am not bringing them here while Momo is already criticizing me for long posts.

Eagle_Eye
20th September 2010, 09:43
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

That includes good deeds by your progeny?

Momo
20th September 2010, 09:50
That includes good deeds by your progeny?
Yes. Provided those good deeds have anything to do with your efforts (while you were alive).

Free Hit
20th September 2010, 09:53
Yes. Provided those good deeds have anything to do with your efforts (while you were alive).

so you cant do hajj, keep roazay or any other ibadat for/on a dead one's name

Xohaib
21st September 2010, 09:08
so you cant do hajj, keep roazay or any other ibadat for/on a dead one's name
I am not sure,but you cannot do that.

Alam_dar
21st September 2010, 09:38
I am not sure,but you cannot do that.

Xohaib dear, I request you to please read post 77 (http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2970368&postcount=77)in this thread. There are tens of undeniable Ahadith about performing Hajj and Roza and Namaz in name of the dead person.
If you are unable to read Urdu, then ask some one to read these Ahadith to you once.

These Ahadith are there, and now look how the Ulama are deducing their Fatwa in light of all these combined Proofs. Really we could learn a lot from it.


ابن قیم الجوزیہ لکھتے ہیں:
تحقیق نبی اکرم ﷺ نے بتایا کہ مردے کو روزے کا بھی ثواب ملتا ہے حالانکہ روزہ محض ترک ہے (کھانا پینا اور جماع وغیرہ) اور نیت ہے جس کا تعلق دل سے ہے جس کی اطلاع اللہ تعالی کے علاوہ کسی کو نہیں اور اعضاء کا عمل نہیں ہے اس سے اس بات کی طرف اشارہ ملتا ہے کہ قرات کا بھی ثواب بطریق اولی میت کو پہنچتا ہے جو کہ زبان کا عمل ہے جسے کان سنتے اور آنکھیں دیکھتی ہیں یعنی روزہ محض نیت ہے اور کھانے پینے اور صحبت سے بچنا ہے ۔ جب اللہ تعالی نے مردے کو روزے کا ثواب پہنچا دیا تو قرات کا جو عمل اور نیت دونوں ہے بلکہ اس میں نیت کی بھی ضرورت نہیں ہوتی بدرجہ اولی پہنچا دے گا گویا کہ روزے کے ثواب پہنچنے میں اس بات کی طرف اشارہ ہے کہ تمام اعمال کا ثواب پہنچتا ہے اور عبادت کی دو قسمیں ہیں مالی اور بدنی۔ اور بیشک شارع علیہ السلام نے صدقہ کا ثواب بتا کر اشارہ کیا کہ تمام مالی عبادتوں کا ثواب پہنچتا ہے اور روزے کے ثواب سے اس بات کی طرف اشارہ کیا کہ تمام بدنی عبادتوں کا ثواب مردہ کو پہنچتا ہے اور حج کا ثواب بتا کر اشارہ کیا کہ تمام بدنی و مالی عبادتوں کا ثواب بھی پہنچتا ہے۔ پس تینوں اقسام بدنی۔مالی اور ملی جلی کا ثواب نص اور اعتبار سے ثابت ہے۔
(کتاب الروح صفحہ ۳۰۸)

ابن قیم الجوزیہ مزید فرماتے ہیں:
اور اس پر اجماع امت ہے کہ اگر میت کی طرف سے قرض ادا کر دیا جائے تو وہ ادا ہو جاتا ہے اگرچہ اجنبی کی طرف سے ادا کیا جائے یا اس کے ترکہ کے علاوہ میں سے اور بے شک اس پر حدیث ابو قتادہ دلالت کرتی ہے جیسے وہ ایک میت کی طرف سے دو دیناروں کے ضامن بن گئے تھے [نوٹ: پس اس سے ثابت ہوا کہ مالی صدقہ دینے کے لیے نیابت یا ولی کی بحث اہلحدیث کا قیاسی مذہب ہے]۔ پس جب انہوں نے ان کو ادا کر دیا تو نبی اکرم ﷺ نے ان سے فرمایا کہ اب مرنے والا سکون سے ہے۔ اور اس پر بھی اجماع امت ہے کہ جب کسی زندہ شخص کا مردے پر حق ہو پس وہ اس سے اسے بری کر دے تو معاف کرنا بھی اسے نفع دے گا اور وہ اس سے بری ہو جائے گا جس طرح زندہ کو معاف کرنے سے حق ساقط ہو جاتا ہے۔ پھر نص و اجماع سے زندہ شخص کو معاف کرنے سے حق ساقط ہو جاتا ہے جبکہ اس کی ادائیگی کا امکان بھی باقی ہے تو مردے کی طرف سے بدرجہ اولیٰ معافی سے حق ساقط ہو جائے گا کیونکہ وہ ادا کرنے پر قادر نہیں اور جب مردوں کو زندوں کی معافی کا فائدہ پہنچتا ہے تو ان کے تحفوں اور ہدیوں کا بھی فائدہ پہنچنا چاہیے کیونکہ دونوں صورتوں میں کوئی فرق نہیں کیونکہ عمل کا ثواب ہدیہ دینے والے کا حق ہے۔ جب اس نے یہ ثواب میت کے لیے ہبہ کر دیا تو اس کی طرف سے منتقل ہو گیا جس طرح میت پر حقوق میں سے کوئی حق ہو قرضہ وغیرہ جو کہ محض زندہ کا حق ہے۔ پس جب اس نے اس کو اس سے بری کر دیا تو یہ بری کرنا اسے پہنچ باتا ہے اور اس کا حق ساقط ہو جاتا ہے تو یہ دونوں ہی زندہ کا حق ہیں پس کون سی نص قیاس یا شرعی قانون ہے کہ ایک کا پہنچنا واجب کرے اور دوسرے کاپہنچنا ممنوع قرار دے؟
(کتاب الروح صفحہ ۳۰۶)

Alam_dar
21st September 2010, 09:47
The Final Undeniable Proof that "ZIKR" of Allah does benefit the Dead:

(If you are unable to read Urdu, then ask some one to read all this Urdu Stuff for you)

Takbir and Tasbih and Quran, all these fall under the category of ZIKR. And Allah's Prophet pbuh indeed himself did ZIKR upon the Dead Person.



حضرت جابر بن عبد اللہ انصاری سے روایت ہے کہ ہم رسول کے ساتھ ایک دن نکلے جب سعد بن معاذ فوت ہوئے راوی کہتے ہیں کہ رسول ﷺ نے ان پر نماز پڑھی اور ان کو قبر میں رکھ گیا اور مٹی ڈال دی گئی تو رسول ﷺ نے تسبیحات پڑھیں پھر ہم نے بھی طویل تسبیحات پڑھیں پھر رسول ﷺ نے تکبیرات پڑھیں پھر رسول ﷺ سے پوچھا گیا کہ آپ نے تسبیح اور تکبیر کس لیے پڑھیں۔ فرمایا رسول ﷺ نے کہ اس نیک بنے پر قبر تنگ ہو گئی تھی یہاں تک کہ اللہ نے اس کی قبر کو کشادہ کر دیا۔
(مسند احمد بن حنبل، جلد ۳، صفحہ ۳۶۰، حدیث ۱۴۹۳۴)

And now look what Imam Qurtabi is saying regarding another Hadith where Prophet pbuh planted two green branches upon the graves of Muslims, hoping that would reduce their Azaab.


امام قرطبی:
ہمارے بعض علماء نے میت کو ثواب پہنچنے پر حدیثِ عسیب سے استدلال کیا ہے اور وہ یہ کہ رسول ﷺ نے ملاحظہ فرمایا کہ دو قبر والوں پر عذاب ہو رہا ہے تو آپ ﷺ نے ایک تر شاخ منگوائی اور اس کے دو ٹکڑے کیے اور دونوں قبروں پر ایک ایک ٹکڑا گاڑ دیا اور فرمایا کہ جب تک یہ تر رہیں گی قبر والوں سے عذاب میں تخفیف ہو گی۔
خطابی کہتے ہیں کہ اہل علم کے نزدیک یہ اس باپ پر محمول ہے کہ جب تک اشیاء اپنی اصل حالت پر رہتی ہیں سبز یا تر رہتی ہیں تو خدا کی تسبیح کرتی ہیں۔ خطابی کے علاوہ بھی دیگر علماء کہتے ہیں کہ جب اللہ تعالیٰ درختوں وغیرہ کی تسبیح سے عذاب میں تخفیف فرماتا ہے تو مومن اگر قبر کے پاس قران پڑھے گا تو کیا حال ہو گا۔ کہا اور یہ حدیث قبروں کے پاس درخت لگانے کی بھی اصل ہے۔

And finally the conclusion that is drawn by great Imam Nawawi:


امام نووی (شارح صحیح مسلم)
اور اس حدیث کی بناء پر علماء نے قبر پر قران پڑھنے کو مستحب جانا ہے اس لیے کہ جب کھجور کی شاخ کی تسبیح سے تخفیفِ عذاب کی امید ہے تو قران مجید کی تلاوت سے بدرجہ اولی امید ہوئی واللہ اعلم اور بے شک امام بخاری نے اپنی صحیح میں ذکر کیا ہے کہ بریدہ بن حصیب اسلمی صحابی نے وصیت کی کہ اُن کی قبر پر دو کھجور کی شاخیں رکھی جائیں۔ حضرت بریدہ نے نبی اکرم ﷺ کے فعل سے برکت حاصل کی۔
(مسلم مع شرح نووی، جلد ۱، صفحہ ۱۴۱)

Xohaib
21st September 2010, 10:45
I have heard a lot of times,dont know if it is hadees or quran it says that you action will do nothing for dead.and I am sure of that.

Xohaib
21st September 2010, 10:53
"Intercession with Him will be in vain, unless it coincides with His will." 34:23

"It is not up to you; He may redeem them, or He may punish them for their transgressions." 3:128

Moreover, many verses in the Quran make it very clear that on Judgement Day, and in accordance with God"s Absolute Justice, no person shall be credited for anything other than his/her OWN WORK, equally that no soul would carry the burden of another:

"No soul benefits except from its own works, and none bears the burden of another." 6:164

"Every human being is credited only to what he/she (personally) done." 53:39

Alam_dar
21st September 2010, 11:20
I have heard a lot of times,dont know if it is hadees or quran it says that you action will do nothing for dead.and I am sure of that.


"Intercession with Him will be in vain, unless it coincides with His will." 34:23

"It is not up to you; He may redeem them, or He may punish them for their transgressions." 3:128

Moreover, many verses in the Quran make it very clear that on Judgement Day, and in accordance with God"s Absolute Justice, no person shall be credited for anything other than his/her OWN WORK, equally that no soul would carry the burden of another:

"No soul benefits except from its own works, and none bears the burden of another." 6:164

"Every human being is credited only to what he/she (personally) done." 53:39

Xohaib brother, I am afraid you are committing grave mistake of Contradicting Verses of Quran and clear Sunnah of Prophet pbuh by bringing other Verses of Quran. Very dangerous practice indeed. Are you better Interpretor of Quran than Prophet pbuh himself? If not, then you should understand the Quran according to the teachings of Prophet pbuh.
But if you keep on neglecting Prophet's teachings, then there are already people known as QURANISTS who have changed the meanings of Quran according to their own wishes.


سورۃ ابراھیم، آیت ۴۱:
ربنا اغفر لی والوالدی و للمومنین یوم یقوم الحساب
ترجمہ:
اے میرے رب مجھے بخش دے اور میرے ماں باپ کو اور سب مسلمانوں کو جس دن حساب ہو گا۔
پس معلوم ہوا کہ دعا سے نہ صرف گذرے ہوئے مومنین کو فائدہ پہنچتا ہے، بلکہ آنے والوں کو بھی اس کا فائدہ ہوتا ہے۔

سورۃ المومن، آیت ۷:
الذین یحملون العرش و من حولہ بحمد ربھم و یومنین بہ و یستغفرون للذین امنو۔
سورۃ الحشر، آیت ۱۰:
والذین جائو من بعدھم یقولون ربنا اغفرلنا ولا خواننا الذین سبقونا بالایمان۔
ترجمہ:
اور وہ جو اُن کے بعد آئے، عرض کرتے ہیں کے ہمارے رب ہمیں بخش دے اور ہمارے بھائیوں کو جو ہم سے پہلے ایمان لائے۔

Indiafan
21st September 2010, 14:02
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.


Wouldnt this be more a cultural(and not religious) ritual to help the family get over the grief

Xohaib
21st September 2010, 19:12
there is difference in asking GOD to forgive our parents and giving sawab to them from our own deeds.

Xohaib
21st September 2010, 19:25
edit

Xohaib
21st September 2010, 19:27
Wouldnt this be more a cultural(and not religious) ritual to help the family get over the grief

aho,get over the grief by going to poor ones and drinking a whole tank of tea and coke.
This eid in our village there came at least 100 people to the women house to drink pepsi and wouldnt go without it.
If you want to do fateha go to Grave yard.

sarmad1983
21st September 2010, 20:10
Question: In your opinion, what is the Sharee'ah ruling in gathering people to read the Book of Allaah with the intention that the benefit of the recitation returns to the one who initiated the gathering or someone who is deceased?

Response: Certainly, reciting the Qur.aan is amongst the best means of attaining nearness (to Allaah). Allaah (Jalla wa 'Alaa) has commanded the recitation of His Book and acting according to it and contemplating it's meanings. As for adopting a specific manner for the recitation, then this requires (appropriate) evidence.

Similar to what the questioner has mentioned by gathering the people to read the Qur.aan to attain its benefit, gifts or reward to the deceased, (then) there is no evidence for this in this manner, rather, it is an innovation. And from one angle, every innovation is misguidance and from another angle, if the reciters were reciting for money as in the case with many from amongst them, then there is no reward for this as they did not recite the Qur.aan for the Sake of Allaah ('Azza wa Jall), rather, the recitation was for money.

If acts of worship are done for money then there is no reward for that as the intention of the person in doing this act is to seek worldly gain and this is from that which nullifies an act. However, the reciting of the Qur.aan benefits if the intention of the reciter or the listener for doing so is to seek nearness to Allaah and that it is done in an Islaamically legislated manner and not an innovated manner from which the ignorant have devised and innovated. So, similar to this recitation, its manner and gifting its reward to the deceased or the living is an innovation and there is no reward in this.

It is obligatory upon the Muslim to leave such acts and if he wants to benefit the deceased, then certainly he can benefit them with that which is mentioned with evidence from mercy and seeking forgiveness for them, praying for them and giving in charity, and performing the Hajj or the 'Umrah on behalf of the deceased.

These issues are that with which there is evidence for benefitting the deceased and the living Muslims and as for doing an act for which there is no evidence, then this is regarded as an innovation, contrary (to the truth).

Shaykh Ibn al-Fowzaan
al-Bid'u wal-Muhdathaat wa maa laa Asla lahu - Page 311;
Noorun 'alad-Darb Fataawa Fadheelatush-Shaykh Saalih Ibn Fowzaan - Volume 1, Page 92

sarmad1983
21st September 2010, 20:14
Id also like to add on what MOMO was saying earlier. In matters of Worship (ibaadah) there has to be proof to make it halaal. So All is haraam until proven hallaal when it comes to worshipping ALLAH subhanawata'llah.

In matters other than worship it is the other way around so, All is halaal until proven haraam. I hope that this fundamental principle is understood properly. I can provide proof for both if needed, inshallah.

Alam_dar
21st September 2010, 20:54
Id also like to add on what MOMO was saying earlier. In matters of Worship (ibaadah) there has to be proof to make it halaal. So All is haraam until proven hallaal when it comes to worshipping ALLAH subhanawata'llah.

In matters other than worship it is the other way around so, All is halaal until proven haraam. I hope that this fundamental principle is understood properly. I can provide proof for both if needed, inshallah.

You are mixing the things and Denying the Concept of "MUBAH" Actions (Ibadaat) in name of your definition of Bidah.

Once again, I question you what is Mubah Ibadat?

I already explained it before. All the NEW Good Actions, which are not colliding with any Principle of Sharia, then they are MUBAH (allowed) in Islam.

Mubah Ibadaat are not Bidah even if they are are NEW and have not been done by Prophet pbuh. For example, if a person wants to pray 500 Rakah Salah during night, then it is fully MUBAH regardless of the fact that Prophet pbuh did it himself or not.

As far as Dead Person is concerned, then you have come up only with Fatwa (without any Proofs). But above a lot of Ahadith have been presented about the fact that Indeed the Reward of Good Deed is transferred to the Dead person. e.g.

1. Prophet pbuh gave permission for doing Hajj for Dead (it includes all types of Ibadaat like Namaz and other).
2. He pbuh also gave permission for Fasting for the Dead.
3. He pbuh also gave the permission for naming a WELL of water in name of the Dead person. So, if any thirsty person drinks from that well then Reward is transferred to the Dead Person.

4. Now it would be STUPID to say that Prophet pbuh only allowed giving a WELL as charity. While any person feed the POOR in name of the Dead, then he is indulged in Bidah and the reward of this feeding of Poor is not going to the Dead person.

5. You say Ibadat of Allah could not be done in order to benefit the Dead.
But making DUA is itself an act of Ibadat.


6. Now tell me, what would you say about the following Tradition. Is it a Bidah by Hazrat Abu Hurayrah when he is saying to do Namaz for him and gift the reward of that Namaz to him.


مرنے والوں یا زندہ لوگوں کے لیے نماز پڑھ کر انہیں ایصالِ ثواب کرنا

سنن ابو داؤد، الملاحم ، فی ذکر البصرہ:
‏حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن المثنى ‏ ‏حدثني ‏ ‏إبراهيم بن صالح بن درهم ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏أبي ‏ ‏يقول ‏‏انطلقنا حاجين فإذا رجل فقال لنا إلى جنبكم قرية يقال لها ‏ ‏الأبلة ‏ ‏قلنا نعم قال من يضمن لي منكم أن يصلي لي في ‏ ‏مسجد العشار ‏ ‏ركعتين أو أربعا ويقول هذه ‏ ‏لأبي هريرة ‏ ‏سمعت خليلي رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏إن الله يبعث من ‏ ‏مسجد العشار ‏ ‏يوم القيامة شهداء لا يقوم مع شهداء ‏ ‏بدر ‏ ‏غيرهم ‏‏قال ‏ ‏أبو داود ‏ ‏هذا المسجد مما ‏ ‏يلي ‏ ‏النهر
ترجمہ
ابراہیم صالح کہتے ہیں کہ میں نے اپنے والد کو کہتے سنا کہ ہ حج کے ارادے سے نکلے تو ایک شخص (یعنی ابو ھریرہ) ملے اور کہنے لگے: تمہاری ایک بستی ہے جس کا نام ابلۃ ہے؟ ہم نے کہا ہاں۔ فرمایا تم مین سے کون مجھے اس بات کی ضمانت دیتا ہے کہ وہ مسجدِ عشار میں دو یا چار رکعتیں نماز ادا کرے اور کہے کہ اس نماز کا ثواب ابو ہریرہ کے لیے ہے؟ میں نے اپنے خلیل ابو القاسم (یعنی رسول ﷺ) سے سنا ہے کہ بیشک مسجد عشار سے قیامت کے دن اللہ ایسے شہیدوں کو اٹھائے گا کہ سوائے شہداء بدر کے اور کوئی ان کا ہم سر نہ ہو گا۔



In fact there are many Ahadith which were presented in Post 77 (http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2970368&postcount=77) and I don't want to repeat the things again. But problem is this you are neglecting all these Ahadith and Proofs and coming up again with same stuff without touching the material already posted.

Then I posted the whole stuff about ZIKR and benefiting the Dead through this ZIKR of Allah.


The Final Undeniable Proof that "ZIKR" of Allah does benefit the Dead:

(If you are unable to read Urdu, then ask some one to read all this Urdu Stuff for you)

Takbir and Tasbih and Quran, all these fall under the category of ZIKR. And Allah's Prophet pbuh indeed himself did ZIKR upon the Dead Person. That too has been neglected by you.



حضرت جابر بن عبد اللہ انصاری سے روایت ہے کہ ہم رسول کے ساتھ ایک دن نکلے جب سعد بن معاذ فوت ہوئے راوی کہتے ہیں کہ رسول ﷺ نے ان پر نماز پڑھی اور ان کو قبر میں رکھ گیا اور مٹی ڈال دی گئی تو رسول ﷺ نے تسبیحات پڑھیں پھر ہم نے بھی طویل تسبیحات پڑھیں پھر رسول ﷺ نے تکبیرات پڑھیں پھر رسول ﷺ سے پوچھا گیا کہ آپ نے تسبیح اور تکبیر کس لیے پڑھیں۔ فرمایا رسول ﷺ نے کہ اس نیک بنے پر قبر تنگ ہو گئی تھی یہاں تک کہ اللہ نے اس کی قبر کو کشادہ کر دیا۔
(مسند احمد بن حنبل، جلد ۳، صفحہ ۳۶۰، حدیث ۱۴۹۳۴)

And now look what Imam Qurtabi is saying regarding another Hadith where Prophet pbuh planted two green branches upon the graves of Muslims, hoping that would reduce their Azaab.


امام قرطبی:
ہمارے بعض علماء نے میت کو ثواب پہنچنے پر حدیثِ عسیب سے استدلال کیا ہے اور وہ یہ کہ رسول ﷺ نے ملاحظہ فرمایا کہ دو قبر والوں پر عذاب ہو رہا ہے تو آپ ﷺ نے ایک تر شاخ منگوائی اور اس کے دو ٹکڑے کیے اور دونوں قبروں پر ایک ایک ٹکڑا گاڑ دیا اور فرمایا کہ جب تک یہ تر رہیں گی قبر والوں سے عذاب میں تخفیف ہو گی۔
خطابی کہتے ہیں کہ اہل علم کے نزدیک یہ اس باپ پر محمول ہے کہ جب تک اشیاء اپنی اصل حالت پر رہتی ہیں سبز یا تر رہتی ہیں تو خدا کی تسبیح کرتی ہیں۔ خطابی کے علاوہ بھی دیگر علماء کہتے ہیں کہ جب اللہ تعالیٰ درختوں وغیرہ کی تسبیح سے عذاب میں تخفیف فرماتا ہے تو مومن اگر قبر کے پاس قران پڑھے گا تو کیا حال ہو گا۔ کہا اور یہ حدیث قبروں کے پاس درخت لگانے کی بھی اصل ہے۔

And finally the conclusion that is drawn by great Imam Nawawi:


امام نووی (شارح صحیح مسلم)
اور اس حدیث کی بناء پر علماء نے قبر پر قران پڑھنے کو مستحب جانا ہے اس لیے کہ جب کھجور کی شاخ کی تسبیح سے تخفیفِ عذاب کی امید ہے تو قران مجید کی تلاوت سے بدرجہ اولی امید ہوئی واللہ اعلم اور بے شک امام بخاری نے اپنی صحیح میں ذکر کیا ہے کہ بریدہ بن حصیب اسلمی صحابی نے وصیت کی کہ اُن کی قبر پر دو کھجور کی شاخیں رکھی جائیں۔ حضرت بریدہ نے نبی اکرم ﷺ کے فعل سے برکت حاصل کی۔
(مسلم مع شرح نووی، جلد ۱، صفحہ ۱۴۱)



عجیب و غریب منطق: زندہ کو ایصالِ ثواب ممکن، مگر مردہ کے لیے ایصالِ ثواب حرام

سنن ابو داؤد، کتاب الاجارہ، باب فی کسب اللطباء:
حَدَّثَنَا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُعَاذٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ أَبِي السَّفَرِ، عَنِ الشَّعْبِيِّ، عَنْ خَارِجَةَ بْنِ الصَّلْتِ، عَنْ عَمِّهِ، أَنَّهُ مَرَّ بِقَوْمٍ فَأَتَوْهُ فَقَالُوا إِنَّكَ جِئْتَ مِنْ عِنْدِ هَذَا الرَّجُلِ بِخَيْرٍ فَارْقِ لَنَا هَذَا الرَّجُلَ ‏.‏ فَأَتَوْهُ بِرَجُلٍ مَعْتُوهٍ فِي الْقُيُودِ فَرَقَاهُ بِأُمِّ الْقُرْآنِ ثَلاَثَةَ أَيَّامٍ غُدْوَةً وَعَشِيَّةً كُلَّمَا خَتَمَهَا جَمَعَ بُزَاقَهُ ثُمَّ تَفَلَ فَكَأَنَّمَا أُنْشِطَ مِنْ عِقَالٍ فَأَعْطُوهُ شَيْئًا فَأَتَى النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَذَكَرَهُ لَهُ فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ كُلْ فَلَعَمْرِي لَمَنْ أَكَلَ بِرُقْيَةٍ بَاطِلٍ لَقَدْ أَكَلْتَ بِرُقْيَةٍ حَقٍّ ‏"‏ ‏.
ترجمہ:
عبید اللہ ابن معاذ، ان کے والد، عبداللہ، شعبی، خارجہ جبن ابی الصلت سے مروی ہے کہ انہوں نے اپنے چچا سے سنا کہ ان کا ایک قوم کے پاس سے گزر ہوا تو اس قوم کے لوگ ان کے پاس آئے اور انہوں نے کہا کہ تم اس آدمی (رسول ﷺ) کے پاس سے خیر و برکت لائے ہو۔ تو تم ہمارے اس آدمہ پر عمل پڑھو۔ پھر وہ لوگ ایسے شخص کو لائے جو کہ مجنون تھا، رسیوں میں بندھا ہوا تھا۔ تو انہوں نے تین دن تک اس شخص پر صبح و شام سورۃ فاتحہ پڑھی۔ جب وہ سورہ فاتح (کا عمل) ختم کرتے تو منہ میں تھوک اکھٹا کر کے اس پر پھونک دیتے۔ پھر وہ شخص ایسا ہو گیا کہ گویا وہ قید سے رہا ہو گیا یعنی تندرست ہو گیا۔ ان لوگون نے انکو (یعنی میرے چچا کو) کچھ پیش کیا۔ وہ خدمتِ نبوی میں حاضر ہوئے اور آپ ﷺ سے پورا واقعہ بیان کیا۔ آپ ﷺ نے فرمایا اس میں سے کھا لو۔ میرے عمر کی قسم لوگ تو جھوٹے عمل (منتر) کر کے کھا لیتے ہیں۔ تم نے تو سچا دم کیا ہے ۔

سنن ابو داؤد کے اسی باب میں یہی حدیث ابو سعید خدری سے مروی ہے جس میں ایک شخص کو سانپ یا بچھو نے ڈس لیا۔ اُس شخص کے قبیلے کے لوگ صحابہ کرام کے پاس آئے (جو کہ اُس علاقے میں ٹہرے ہوئے تھے) اور درخواست کی کہ اگر اُن کے پاس کوئی تعویز ہے تو وہ اُس بیمار پر دم کر دیں۔ اس پر ایک صحابی نے کہا:
فَقَالَ رَجُلٌ مِنَ الْقَوْمِ إِنِّي لأَرْقِي وَلَكِنِ اسْتَضَفْنَاكُمْ فَأَبَيْتُمْ أَنْ تُضَيِّفُونَا مَا أَنَا بِرَاقٍ حَتَّى تَجْعَلُوا لِي جُعْلاً ‏.‏ فَجَعَلُوا لَهُ قَطِيعًا مِنَ الشَّاءِ فَأَتَاهُ فَقَرَأَ عَلَيْهِ بِأُمِّ الْكِتَابِ وَيَتْفُلُ حَتَّى بَرِئَ كَأَنَّمَا أُنْشِطَ مِنْ عِقَالٍ فَأَوْفَاهُمْ جُعْلَهُمُ الَّذِي صَالَحُوهُ عَلَيْهِ ‏.‏ فَقَالُوا اقْتَسِمُوا فَقَالَ الَّذِي رَقَى لاَ تَفْعَلُوا حَتَّى نَأْتِيَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَنَسْتَأْمِرَهُ ‏.‏ فَغَدَوْا عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَذَكَرُوا لَهُ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ مِنْ أَيْنَ عَلِمْتُمْ أَنَّهَا رُقْيَةٌ أَحْسَنْتُمْ وَاضْرِبُوا لِي مَعَكُمْ بِسَهْمٍ ‏"
(سنن ابو داؤد، کتاب الاجارۃ، باب فِي كَسْبِ الأَطِبَّاءِ )
ترجمہ:
۔۔۔ اُن میں سے ایک صحابی نے کہا ہاں میرے پاس تعویز اور دم ہے۔ لیکن ہم لوگوں نے تم سے مہمان نوازی کا مطالبہ کیا مگر تم نے انکار کر دیا۔ میں اب دم نہیں کروں گا جب تک تم معاوضہ نہ ادا کر دو۔ ان لوگوں نے بکریوں کا ایک ریوڑ دینا مقرر کیا۔ پھر وہ شخص (صحابی) آیا اور اس نے الحمد شریف پڑھ کر تھوکنا شروع کیا یہاں تک کہ وہ شخص چنگا بھلا ہو گیا گویا کہ وہ شخص رہا ہو گیا تھا۔ پھر ان لوگوں نے جو معاوضہ متعین کیا تھا وہ ادا کر دیا۔ صحابہ کرام نے عرض کیا لاؤ اس کو تقسیم کر لیں۔ مگر جس شخص نے دم کیا تھا اس نے کہا نہیں تم لوگ ٹہر جاؤ جب تک کہ ہم رسول کریم ﷺ کی خدمت میں حاضر ہوں اور رسول ﷺ سے دریافت نہ کر لیں۔ پھر صبح کو آپ کی خدمت اقدس میں حاضر ہوئے اور آپ ﷺ سے تذکرہ کیا۔ آپ ﷺ نے فرمایا کہ تم کو یہ بات کہاں سے معلوم ہوئی کہ سورہ فاتحہ عمل (دم) ہے؟ خیر چلو، تم نے اچھا کیا۔اب میرا بھی ایک حصہ اپنے ساتھ مقرر کر لو۔

یہی حدیث کئی طریقوں سے صحیح مسلم اور بخاری میں بھی موجود ہے۔

پس اس حدیث سے ذیل کی باتیں ثابت ہوئیں:

فاتحہ پڑھ کر اُس کا نفع دوسروں کو ایصال کیا جا سکتا ہے۔ اور فاتحہ ایک عبادت ہے۔ پس عبادت کا ثواب/نفع/ برکت دوسروں کو ایصال کرنا بالکل جائز ہے۔

صحابی نے فاتحہ پڑھنے کا یہ عمل اپنی ذاتی اجتہاد کی بنیاد پر کیا (جبکہ رسول ﷺ کی طرف سے پہلے کوئی ایسا حکم موجود نہیں تھا)۔ اس کی وجہ یہ ہے کہ اُنہیں پتا تھا کہ پورے قران میں برکت ہے اور اس سے شفا حاصل کرنا شریعت میں بالکل جائز ہے چاہے اس کے لیے کوئی خاص حکم شریعت میں ہو یا نہ ہو (یعنی یہ مباح فعل ہے اور عمومی اجازت کافی ہے کہ انسان اپنے ذاتی رائے و اجتہاد سے کوئی بھی ایسا نیا کام کرے جو شریعت کے اصولوں کے مطابق ہو)۔

۔ اسی قسم کی حدیث حضرت عائشہ سے بھی مروی ہے کہ جب رسول ﷺ بہت سخت بیمار ہوئے تو وہ قران سے معوذتین پڑھ پڑھ کر رسول ﷺ کے ہاتھوں پر پھونکتیں اور پھر اُن ہاتھوں کو رسول ﷺ کے جسم پر پھیرتیں۔ (صحیح بخاری، کتاب فضائل القران، حدیث 535 انگریزی ورژن)
اسی طرح کی حدیث ہے کہ مرتے ہوئے شخص کے سرہانے کوئی دوسرا شخص سورہ یسین پڑھے تو اس کی برکت اور اثر اُس مرنے والے کو ایصال ہو کر موت میں آسانی پیدا کرتی ہے

Indiafan
21st September 2010, 21:15
aho,get over the grief by going to poor ones and drinking a whole tank of tea and coke.
This eid in our village there came at least 100 people to the women house to drink pepsi and wouldnt go without it.
If you want to do fateha go to Grave yard.


Sorry, I dont know what exactly the 'khatam' consists of. But most culture around the world has some kind of ritual over a few days which is meant to allow people to grieve in a community and come to terms with their loss. this prevents family members of the deceased from going into sever depression or killing themselves as they are always in company of other people who look after them. There are many rituals like 'Wake', 'Shraddh', etc from all over the world.

Momo
22nd September 2010, 20:31
Sorry, I dont know what exactly the 'khatam' consists of. But most culture around the world has some kind of ritual over a few days which is meant to allow people to grieve in a community and come to terms with their loss. this prevents family members of the deceased from going into sever depression or killing themselves as they are always in company of other people who look after them. There are many rituals like 'Wake', 'Shraddh', etc from all over the world.
Indiafan: There can be good and bad ways of coping with the loss as far as the survivors are concerned, but this thread is about the (erronious) belief of some people that things done at that time by the people gathered helps the dead in some way.

Momo
22nd September 2010, 20:32
so you cant do hajj, keep roazay or any other ibadat for/on a dead one's name
You can do whatever you like, I guess. But the question is, does it benefit the dead or not.

Momo
22nd September 2010, 20:49
Xohaib brother, I am afraid you are committing grave mistake of Contradicting Verses of Quran and clear Sunnah of Prophet pbuh by bringing other Verses of Quran. Very dangerous practice indeed.
What a silly argument! So because you happened to first present a few Qur'anic verses (which were completely irrelevant by the way), somebody bringing in other verses is dangerous? It means if he had brought those verses before you, then your "confronting" them with your verses would have been dangerous, right?

Pehle aayiye pehle paayiye. What a way to argue!

And I am sorry you don't have any idea of what Sunnah is.


Are you better Interpretor of Quran than Prophet pbuh himself? If not, then you should understand the Quran according to the teachings of Prophet pbuh.
But if you keep on neglecting Prophet's teachings, then there are already people known as QURANISTS who have changed the meanings of Quran according to their own wishes.
Well there are even more people who have changed the meaning of the Qur'an by overruling it by some pretty dubious ahadees also. Where does it take us then?

The only solution is to use one's head, and do away with these "Are you a better interpreter of the Qur'an than the Prophet" emotional lines.

First of all, Qur'an is clear in its meaning. There isn't any "interpretation" involved. It's not a secret code for there to be any need of interpretation. It needs to be understood, yes, but no interpretation is required.

And if you think you can understand it with your mind closed, then you are mistaken.

And while we are on the subject of using one's mind, tell me this: If you didn't have the intention of doing a certain good deed, but the circumstances were such that you did that, do you think, Islamically, you will get any benefit for that?





سورۃ ابراھیم، آیت ۴۱:
ربنا اغفر لی والوالدی و للمومنین یوم یقوم الحساب
ترجمہ:
اے میرے رب مجھے بخش دے اور میرے ماں باپ کو اور سب مسلمانوں کو جس دن حساب ہو گا۔
پس معلوم ہوا کہ دعا سے نہ صرف گذرے ہوئے مومنین کو فائدہ پہنچتا ہے، بلکہ آنے والوں کو بھی اس کا فائدہ ہوتا ہے۔

سورۃ المومن، آیت ۷:
الذین یحملون العرش و من حولہ بحمد ربھم و یومنین بہ و یستغفرون للذین امنو۔
سورۃ الحشر، آیت ۱۰:
والذین جائو من بعدھم یقولون ربنا اغفرلنا ولا خواننا الذین سبقونا بالایمان۔
ترجمہ:
اور وہ جو اُن کے بعد آئے، عرض کرتے ہیں کے ہمارے رب ہمیں بخش دے اور ہمارے بھائیوں کو جو ہم سے پہلے ایمان لائے۔

And what does this prove?

Momo
22nd September 2010, 20:57
Wouldnt this be more a cultural(and not religious) ritual to help the family get over the grief
The topic of this thread is, and many people do believe so too, that doing such and such things on certain days after the death benefit the dead man. That is not true at all. And the people who do it do it thinking it is some sort of a religious thing.

As for the way of coping with the the tragedy, there can be good ways and bad ways, but that is a topic for another thread.

Momo
22nd September 2010, 21:11
If you deny this Basic Rule, then what do you have to say about this Action of Hazrat Abu Hurayra:


مرنے والوں یا زندہ لوگوں کے لیے نماز پڑھ کر انہیں ایصالِ ثواب کرنا

سنن ابو داؤد، الملاحم ، فی ذکر
ترجمہ
ابراہیم صالح کہتے ہیں کہ میں نے اپنے والد کو کہتے سنا کہ ہ حج کے ارادے سے نکلے تو ایک شخص (یعنی ابو ھریرہ) ملے اور کہنے لگے: تمہاری ایک بستی ہے جس کا نام ابلۃ ہے؟ ہم نے کہا ہاں۔ فرمایا تم مین سے کون مجھے اس بات کی ضمانت دیتا ہے کہ وہ مسجدِ عشار میں دو یا چار رکعتیں نماز ادا کرے اور کہے کہ اس نماز کا ثواب ابو ہریرہ کے لیے ہے؟ میں نے اپنے خلیل ابو القاسم (یعنی رسول ﷺ) سے سنا ہے کہ بیشک مسجد عشار سے قیامت کے دن اللہ ایسے شہیدوں کو اٹھائے گا کہ سوائے شہداء بدر کے اور کوئی ان کا ہم سر نہ ہو گا۔


Don't you see the problem in your definition of Bidah that if we have to believe that ever New Action is Bidah, then this Sahabi would also become innovator.

First of all, there is no such rule. You just made it up!

As for this tradition (of Abu Huraira), for starters, I doubt this ever happened. For the sake of argument though, let's say it did happen. What does it prove anyway? Show and tell, Alam_dar, show and tell!

You must provide evidence for what you claimed, and not something else. That's why, as a rule, I don't respond to wholesale copy-paste jobs. That's becasue the copy-paster himself doesn't normally read it, and it's just a wastage of time.

From now on, I will only respond to your posts if you type them yourself. I am hoping that that way they will be more relevant to the discussion. I hope you understand.


Very necessary thing is to understand the concept of "MUBAH" in Islam. There are things which are made Halal by taking the particular name, but there are things which are made Mubah according to the "Basic Rule".

The concept of Mubah in Islam is this Any Good Action (old or new) is Halal. The only condition is it should not be contrary to any Specific Quran Order of against any Established Sunnah.

For example, established Sunnah is that Fajr Prayer is 2 Rakah. But if any person tries to change this Established Sunnah and say No he will pray 4 Rakah for more Reward, then it is Haram. But if any person says that he want to pray 1000 Rakah NAFL prayer during night, then it is MUBAH (regardless of the fact if Prophet pbuh himself earlier prayed 1000 Rakah or not, or he ordered it or not).
Since the Rasool Allah taught us how to say prayers and he himself offered nafl prayers and sanctioned them for us; therefore praying nafl the way he taught us is okay (not any other way). If the sanction wasn't there, it wouldn't have been right because it is an ibaadat.

Number has nothing to do with it.

Indiafan
22nd September 2010, 21:14
The topic of this thread is, and many people do believe so too, that doing such and such things on certain days after the death benefit the dead man. That is not true at all. And the people who do it do it thinking it is some sort of a religious thing.

As for the way of coping with the the tragedy, there can be good ways and bad ways, but that is a topic for another thread.

Thanks for the explanation Momo

khan-92
22nd September 2010, 21:21
Q: Is there a narration, which documents that Rasulullah Sallallaahu Alayhi wasallam ever performed an Ibadat like reciting Qur'an, and asking Allah to forward the reward to any of his deceased relatives?




A: Isaal-e-Sawaab (to perform a virtuous act and grant the reward to any person, alive or deceased) is permissible and in fact (Mustahabb) meritorious.

There are basically 2 forms of Isaal-e-Sawaab:

The conveying of the reward of charitable deeds.
The conveying of the reward of physical deeds that do not entail wealth, e.g. Salaat, fasting, Dhikr, recitation of the holy Qur'an, Tawaaf of the Ka'abah, etc.


The first form is unanimously acceptable by the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah.

The second form is correct according to the Hanafi and Hanbali Madhab and several Shaafi'ee and Maaliki scholars as well.




As for the reward of Du'aa (which is separate from the above), there is also unanimity of the scholars in its reward reaching and benefiting the deceased. (refer al-Azkaar of [b]Imaam Nawawi)

Hafiz ibnul Qayyim (RA) states that if one accepts the charitable form of Isaal-e-Sawaab and refutes the physical form, it would be said to him: 'What is the proof to show that the recitation of the holy Qur'aan does not reach the deceased?'


And Allamah Qurtubi states, 'Just as the reward of charitable deeds benefit the deceased, similarly, the recitation of the holy Qur'aan, Du'aa and Isghtifaar also do the same, because all of these are regarded as Sadaqah (charity) in Shari'ah.' (al-Tazkirah pg.71)

He, thereafter, mentioned 2 narrations recorded in Sahih Muslim which prove that even Salaat and Dhikr of Allah (Tasbeeh, Takbeer and Tahleel) were all classified as Sadaqah by Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam).


Hence, there remains no dispute in whether the reward of Qur'aanic recital benefits and deceased or not.



Besides the above, we will now for academic reasons, mention some proofs that substantiate both forms of Isaal-e-Sawaab.




1. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) slaughtered sheep during his farewell Hajj and made intention for himself and all those (alive, deceased and to come) who bring faith on his prophethood.

(Sahih Bukhari)


Imaam Bukhari has reported on the authority of Sayyiduna Abdullah ibn Abbaas (Radhiallaahu Anhu) that Sayyiduna Sa'ad ibn Ubaadah (Radhiallaahu Anhu) was away when his mother passed away. When he returned, he asked Rasulullah, 'Will it be of any benefit if I give charity on her behalf?' Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) replied in the affirmative.

(Sahih Bukhari Hadith2762)


Hafiz ibn Hajar al-Asqalaani (RA) states in his monumental commentary of Sahih Bukhari entitled, 'Fath al-Bari',

'This Hadith proves the permissibility of charity on behalf of the deceased and that the reward will reach him.'

(Fath al-Baari vol.5 pg.477 Hadith2761)



Sayyiduna Abdullah ibn Abbaas (Radhiallaahu Anhu) reports a man once asked Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), 'O Prophet of Allah! My father has passed away and he did not perform Hajj, can I perform Hajj on his behalf?' Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) enquired of him, 'If your father had any debt, would you have paid it.?' The man replied, 'Yes.' Upon this, Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, 'In that case, the Deen of Allah has more right.'

(Sunan Nasaaie Hadith26331)



A separate incident of a similar nature has been recorded by Imaam Bukhari in his Sahih (Hadith6698). Hafiz ibn Qayyim (RA), the famous student of Hafiz ibn Taymiyah (RA), after quoting the above Ahaadith, states: 'These quotations all concur with the fact that when the living carry out any deed on behalf of the deceased, the reward will reach him (benefit him).'

(Kitaab Ruh pg.161)



Sayyiduna al-Lajlaaj (Radhiallaahu Anhu), a companion of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), had bequested his son that after he leaves this world, he should recite the beginning and end of Surah al-Baqarah at the head side of his grave. Sayyiduna al-Lajlaaj (Radhiallaahu Anhu) then mentioned that he heard this from Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam). (al-Mu'jamul Kabeer of Imaam Tabrani; Hafiz Haythami has regarded the narrators of this tradition as reliable - refer Majmauz-zawaaid vol.3 pg.44)
Such has also been recorded to be the practice of Sayyiduna Abdullah ibn Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu).

(Sunan al-Kubra of Imaam Bayhaqi vol.4 pg.56). This narration has been classified as Hasan (sound) by Imaam Nawawiy and Hafiz ibn Hajar (RA). (al-Azkaar pg.212 Hadith493; al-Futuhaat al-Rabbaaniyya vol.3 pg.194)




Allaamah al-Qurtubi [ra] states that, 'Some of our Ulama have based the permissibility of Isaal-e-Sawaab of the recitation of the Qur'aan on the Hadith of Sahih Bukhari (Hadith216, 1361) and Sahih Muslim wherein there is mention of Rasulullah [Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam] placing fresh branches on 2 graves and He [Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam] said, 'Perhaps their punishment will be lightened through it as long as the branches do not dry up.' (The Ulama explain the reason for this to be the Tasbeeh that those fresh branches will recite).

Allaamah al-Qurtubi further states, 'If the Tasbeeh of trees can benefit the deceased, then why not the recitation of the Qur'aan by a believer in Allah?' (Al-Tazkirah pg.70)



Hafiz ibn Hajar (RA) has mentioned in a reply to a query of whether the
reward of recitation of the Qur'aan reaches the deceased, that; it is Mustahabb (meritorious) for one to do this form of (Isaal-e-Sawaab) abundantly. (refer Tawdehul Bayaan li wusooli thawaabil Qur'aan of Shaykh Abdullah Siddique al-Ghumariy pg.2) Besides these there are numerous other narrations of this nature.



It thus becomes abundantly clear through the abovementioned Ahaadith that Isaal-e-Sawaab is totally permissible in all it's forms and is in fact a very virtuous deed. This is the view of the overwhelming majority of the classical scholars (Muhadditheen and Fuqahaa) of Islam. (refer Kitaab al-Rooh of ibn Qayyim pg.153; Fathul Baari vol.5 pg.477 Hadith2761; Sharhus-Sudoor of Allamah Suyuti pgs.402, 403 Dar ibn Kathir; al-Hidaaya vol.1 pg.296-297; Fathul Qadeer vol.3 pg.65-66; Shaami vol.2 pg.243 - HM Saeed)




If after understanding the above, one still denies the validity of the physical form of Isaal-e-Sawab, then the following method can in no circumstance be refuted. And that is that after one carries out a physical form of worship (i.e. Salat, fasting, recitation of the holy Qur'aan, etc.), he should make a Du'aa to Almighty Allah that Allah, firstly, accepts this noble deed and he should thereafter ask Allah to grant the reward to so and so person. In this way, if Allah accepts the Du'aa, the reward will automatically be conveyed to that specific person alive or deceased.

This method has been prescribed by great scholars like Imaam Nawawi and Hafiz ibn Hajar so as to remove all differences of opinion. We have already mentioned that there is no doubt in the deceased benefiting from the Du'aas of the living. In a narration of Sahih Muslim, Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) has mentioned that one the three things that will benefit the deceased is the Du'aa of his pious children. (Sahih Muslim pg.4199)

Lastly, we would like to mention that this Mas-alah (issue) is not something connect to beliefs, instead it is a Faraaidh (secondary) issue which entails a difference of opinion as well. (Fatawa ibnus salaah vol.1 pg.149). Hence, no one can claim that either part is guilty of perpetrating an act of Bid'ah (innovation), bearing in mind that the majority of the scholars accept all forms of Isaal-e-Sawaab. (refer Kitaab al-Ruh)

The incident of Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal has been recorded by Imaam Abu Bakr al-Khallaal in his Kitaabul Jaami as well as in his booklet entitled, 'Amr bil Ma'roof Wa Nahy anil Munkar, and according to this, Imaam Ahmad had approved of the recitation of the beginning and end of Surah al-Baqarah (refer Atharul Hadith of al-Muhaddith Shaykh Muhammad Awwaamah pgs.162-163)

As for your specific query of the validity of reciting the Qur'aan from the homes, it will suffice to say that there is no difference - in this instance - between recital in the graveyard and in the homes, just as there is no difference in making Du'aa for the deceased in the graveyard or from the home. And allow us to ask the question, what is the proof for the act of reciting from home and dedicating its reward to the deceased being void and incorrect?

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Moulana Muhammad ibn Moulana Haroon Abassommar
FACULTY OF SPECIALTY IN HADITH
CHECKED AND APPROVED: Mufti Ebrahim Desai

Momo
22nd September 2010, 21:29
The copy paste merchants have completely taken over this thread. They can't put together a decent argument themselves, but will that stop them from pasting pages upon pages of copied data (which they have themselves not read and understood), hell no!

This thread is about to become completely unreadable. Actually it already has.

khan-92
22nd September 2010, 21:35
The copy paste merchants have completely taken over this thread. They can't put together a decent argument together themselves, but will that stop them from pasting pages upon pages of copied data, hell no!

This thread is about to become completely unreadable.

I rather copy & paste then give opinion ao something which I am not qualified to do.I do not consider myself to be expert on Quran & Hadeeth thats why I follow the experts of Quran & hadeeth which are ulema not any tom dick & harry who thinks he is expert on Quran & Hadeeth.

Momo
23rd September 2010, 02:08
I rather copy & paste then give opinion ao something which I am not qualified to do.I do not consider myself to be expert on Quran & Hadeeth thats why I follow the experts of Quran & hadeeth which are ulema not any tom dick & harry who thinks he is expert on Quran & Hadeeth.
Very touching.

The problem though is, if you have no idea about the contents of the Qur'an yourself, how will you know if the "scholar" is giving you the right answer?

And how does one become "qualified" and an "expert"? What must a person have before you consider him an expert and not a Tom, Dick, or Harry? Please enlighten us.

And was the Qur'an sent for the "scholars" only?

Xohaib
23rd September 2010, 11:07
Sorry, I dont know what exactly the 'khatam' consists of. But most culture around the world has some kind of ritual over a few days which is meant to allow people to grieve in a community and come to terms with their loss. this prevents family members of the deceased from going into sever depression or killing themselves as they are always in company of other people who look after them. There are many rituals like 'Wake', 'Shraddh', etc from all over the world.

No body kills himself if someone dies.What if some one is Poor,in our village whole village goes to the poor ones on eid not after the man dies.
This is the most ridiculous ritual.
As for khatam it has nothing to do with islam.

Alam_dar
23rd September 2010, 13:36
Very touching.

The problem though is, if you have no idea about the contents of the Qur'an yourself, how will you know if the "scholar" is giving you the right answer?

And how does one become "qualified" and an "expert"? What must a person have before you consider him an expert and not a Tom, Dick, or Harry? Please enlighten us.

And was the Qur'an sent for the "scholars" only?

Momo dear, every one has his own opinion. We are not here to impose our opinions upon others.
I respect your opinion, but I differ with it. For me, it is wrong to blame us for following "Scholar". No, at least in above mentioned case, we are not following Scholars, but the Proofs that Scholar gave from Quran and Hadith.
I believe my posts were full of Ahadith and Proofs. And also the post above be Khan is excellent while it is not simple Fatwa (as has been pasted here by Salafi Scholars) but it is full of Ahadith and Proofs.

Off course, you are free to your opinion and what ever you believe. If you still have any Quranic Verse, Hadith or Proof in support of your argument, then surely I say welcome to this.


Xohaib:
As for khatam it has nothing to do with islam.

Brother, you must learn few things.
First of all you people should stop blaming that Isaal-e-Sawab is a Hindu Practice. It is entirely wrong and centuries old Arab Fuqaha and Imams (who never interacted with Hindus) do believe in Isaal-e-Sawab. Secondly, you must understand the concept of "Mubah" in Islam which states any good Action (either Zikr of Allah or Zikr of Rasool, or charity etc.) could be done at ANY TIME. If you are making any Mubah Practice Haram in name of Bidah, then it is in itself a big Innovation.

khan-92
23rd September 2010, 14:00
Very touching.

The problem though is, if you have no idea about the contents of the Qur'an yourself, how will you know if the "scholar" is giving you the right answer?

And how does one become "qualified" and an "expert"? What must a person have before you consider him an expert and not a Tom, Dick, or Harry? Please enlighten us.

And was the Qur'an sent for the "scholars" only?

I am not saying the Quran is for only scholars only but to take laws and give fatwa is only done by people who are qualified to do so not by common man.

To become expert and give fatwa you have to learn Quranic arabic & Tafseer study Islamic sharia, study the hadeeth study fiqh and many more sciences relating to these under a teacher who is qualified and who has sanad in all these sciences then gives you ijaza to give fatwa.

If you do not have time to study all this then stick to opinions of ulema who are qualified to do so.

As for my post I was not saying the custom of khatams after 40 days is ok but to do esaale sawab is ok and has been proven from classical Islamic scholars and hadeeth.

Waq
23rd September 2010, 14:21
The copy paste merchants have completely taken over this thread. They can't put together a decent argument themselves, but will that stop them from pasting pages upon pages of copied data (which they have themselves not read and understood), hell no!

This thread is about to become completely unreadable. Actually it already has.

I agree. The thread was good but it has now done my head in. Islam is meant to be simple.

Anyway, Momo and crew, I will not argue with you as I agree with your logic and how you have evidenced it.

I am a practical guy and what interests me is not the debate because, "you had me at hello"!

What does interest me is what your family beliefs are. All four of my grandparents are dead. I love my both my parents and they both believe in Khatams with the food etc. My father would not only be horrified but also furious if I stopped these traditions. He would also feel let down.

Yes we all go to our own graves and I am fully aware of that but it is one thing having a debate and one thing implementing it within your family, especially with elders.

I know what you have evidenced is correct but how have people gone onto change the mindset or culture of their families?

I am a married guy with children and have no such issues implementing this to them but what about my parents. If you think Afridi is tough then you aint met my father!

Free Hit
23rd September 2010, 16:52
Waq, i hope you aren't just relying on what momo and co's views are, best solution is to search yourself on this issue, if a hadith is given to you relating this issue dont just ignore it by saying this is sunnah and hadith and sunnah are two different things, and if quran verse is provided to you, don't just ignore it by saying its not clear enough.

Learn Quran and its meaning(arabic), read the hadiths, any Prophet's saying is always valid, not authentic etc....

6xafridi
23rd September 2010, 19:05
It's very simple.. find proof that the Prophet told us to do this ritual and/or that the Sahaba used to do such a thing.

DeadlyVenom
23rd September 2010, 19:25
It's very simple.. find proof that the Prophet told us to do this ritual and/or that the Sahaba used to do such a thing.

you cant.

aashiqmizaaj
23rd September 2010, 19:34
you cant.

You won't find any example of Taraveeh prayers the same way either - yet people don't seem to have any issue with it. The current method of Taraveeh prayers are what Hazrat Umar instituted.

Sufi Malang
23rd September 2010, 20:46
These WAHABIS/KHARJIS will never get this point and will always keep on harping about these issues. There is just no limit of their denial. Everything is labelled as either Biddat or Shirk. They will not accept any Hadith, reference which doesn't suit their argument and will discard it by calling it as ZAIF Hadith...These people don't even understand the meaning of Biddat. There is also something called Bidat-e-Hasna. A poster above has given an example of Traveeh prayers how it was institued by Hazrat UMAR (R.A) and there many other things like that. But as i said, they will never get it as wahabism is not only a sect, its also a mindset of living in denial and rejecting everything so its not gonna change i guess for some people :)

IAJ
23rd September 2010, 21:03
These WAHABIS/KHARJIS will never get this point and will always keep on harping about these issues. There is just no limit of their denial. Everything is labelled as either Biddat or Shirk. They will not accept any Hadith, reference which doesn't suit their argument and will discard it by calling it as ZAIF Hadith...These people don't even understand the meaning of Biddat. There is also something called Bidat-e-Hasna. A poster above has given an example of Traveeh prayers how it was institued by Hazrat UMAR (R.A) and there many other things like that. But as i said, they will never get it as wahabism is not only a sect, its also a mindset of living in denial and rejecting everything so its not gonna change i guess for some people :)

Good post brother :)

Xohaib
23rd September 2010, 21:42
Good post brother :)

Good post because he called me wahabis?
These things,like khatam,peeri faqeeri,marriage rituals have all come from hindus.
why would you do essale sawab for your father,making dua for him will have more benefit.
Just make a dua that God forgive him(dont go to the peer or ameer).he may listen to you and firgives you father.
(my Grand father was also into peeri faqeeri)

Free Hit
23rd September 2010, 21:55
Good post because he called me wahabis?
These things,like khatam,peeri faqeeri,marriage rituals have all come from hindus.
why would you do essale sawab for your father,making dua for him will have more benefit.
Just make a dua that God forgive him(dont go to the peer or ameer).he may listen to you and firgives you father.
(my Grand father was also into peeri faqeeri)

you are totally brain washed as to what peeri faqeeri really is, you are mentioning the peer which do dua etc for money, but this is like non believer blaming the whole Muslims for the wrong doing of few people. i agree their are bad people in our society but not all the peers are like what you think. if someone keeps on worshipping every night of his life(day of course too), someone who doesnt miss his namaz with jamaat for 40 years, and someone just calls him his peer and ask him to pray for him and dua for his family, would you put that peer in the same category as well.

really you people need to wake up, in this very thread you have been provided with some hadiths but you are denying them, why? it really becomes shirk for you people to deny a hadith then us people doing a biddat.

Xohaib
23rd September 2010, 22:27
you are totally brain washed as to what peeri faqeeri really is, you are mentioning the peer which do dua etc for money, but this is like non believer blaming the whole Muslims for the wrong doing of few people. i agree their are bad people in our society but not all the peers are like what you think. if someone keeps on worshipping every night of his life(day of course too), someone who doesnt miss his namaz with jamaat for 40 years, and someone just calls him his peer and ask him to pray for him and dua for his family, would you put that peer in the same category as well.

really you people need to wake up, in this very thread you have been provided with some hadiths but you are denying them, why? it really becomes shirk for you people to deny a hadith then us people doing a biddat.

Firstly do you even know what shirk is?Or for you every argument is shirk?

I havent seen a good peer in my life,1 I know keeps on singing qawwalis,other one takes money for doing someones work,and everybody knows of per allowdin

Even if there is a peer,how you know ALLAH has accepted all his IBADAT?
And why would you ask him for Dua,I have no problem in it,but doing baet,than calling him peer and than yourself mureed is nothing related to religion.
ALLah wants you to bow to him,and ask for dua,not bowing to peer.

Free Hit
23rd September 2010, 22:39
Firstly do you even know what shirk is?Or for you every argument is shirk?

I havent seen a good peer in my life,1 I know keeps on singing qawwalis,other one takes money for doing someones work.
Even if there is a peer,how you know ALLAh has accepted all his IBADAT?and everybody knows of per allowdin

And why would you ask him for Dua,I have no problem in it,but doing baet,than calling him peer and than yourself mureed is nothing related to religion.
ALLah wants you to bow to him,and ask for dua,not bowing to peer.

brother you are talking like kid or being emotional for no reasons, i mean you havent seen a good peer doesnt mean that their isnt one anywhere else too, i havent seen a terrorist but that doesnt mean their isnt any terrorist.

anyone who does sajda to anyone else than Allah SWT is kafir, where do you get this impression that we bow down to a peer.

I personally don't have a peer, because i believe Allah SWT and his Prophet Muhammad PBUH are enough for me, but at the same time i have beliefs that having a peer, who can guide you to a better and straight is doing no harm to you, and its for your betterment. i believe in that taveez can make difference but i have never wore one in my life neither did my family. but i have never disrespect anything in my life. Islam is a full way of life for us, its us who are making it harder for ourselves, all the misguided people need is someone's guidance, and a step by step guide by a peer is not doing any harm to your beliefs.

Xohaib
23rd September 2010, 22:43
brother you are talking like kid or being emotional for no reasons, i mean you havent seen a good peer doesnt mean that their isnt one anywhere else too, i havent seen a terrorist but that doesnt mean their isnt any terrorist.

anyone who does sajda to anyone else than Allah SWT is kafir, where do you get this impression that we bow down to a peer.

I personally don't have a peer, because i believe Allah SWT and his Prophet Muhammad PBUH are enough for me, but at the same time i have beliefs that having a peer, who can guide you to a better and straight is doing no harm to you, and its for your betterment. i believe in that taveez can make difference but i have never wore one in my life neither did my family. but i have never disrespect anything in my life. Islam is a full way of life for us, its us who are making it harder for ourselves, all the misguided people need is someone's guidance, and a step by step guide by a peer is not doing any harm to your beliefs.

You call the guider teacher,you dont have to be his mureed and dont even have to do baet.

Xohaib
23rd September 2010, 22:46
You guider doesnt have to do ibadat all day long.
teaching and learning is better.

Free Hit
23rd September 2010, 22:49
You call the guider teacher,you dont have to be his mureed and dont even have to do baet.

Thats a topic for different thread about bait and mureedeens, so is it the name peer which you don't like, and you are OK if the guider is called a teacher.

its misguided people who whenever they hear the word peer, the negativity comes into their mind, it is been ruined by those people, and am not defending the fake peers here too. Allah will surely judge everyone equal on the day of judgement, so we can leave the fake peeri's case in Allah SWT court

Free Hit
23rd September 2010, 22:54
You guider doesnt have to do ibadat all day long.
teaching and learning is better.

but if he does do it thats a plus really.

i can put 1000 of examples down about the pious people of past, sheikh abdul qadir jilani of baghdad, use to sleep 2 hours a day after zuhar, and that was about it, he use to teach from morning to zohar, then after he got up untill isha, he use to learn and teach, at night time he use to pray to ALlah SWT.

A good peer of today doesnt just do ibadat all day along, teaching their mureedens and other people be their first aim, and any extra time they use it to worship the Almighty Allah SWT.

Alam_dar
24th September 2010, 06:22
Dear Xohaib & party, I have two Questions for you:

Question 1: Prophet pbuh prayed the Night Prayer of Tarawih for only 3 nights (alternative nights?). Please tell us from where came the order of praying Tarawih for complete 30 nights of Ramazan?

Question 2: Prophet pbuh didn't complete whole Quran during those 3 nights of Tarawih prayer. Now tell us from why you then complete the whole Quran during Tarawih?

For us the answer is very simple that all these are MUBAH Actions and not against any Established Sunnah/Principle of Islam and thus fully allowed. For us Mubah Actions mean you are allowed to choose yourself the timings of doing any Good Action.
It is just like we say Darood before Azaan as it is Mubah to recite Darood at any time in Islam. Similarly praying Tarawih for 30 nights is fully allowed regardless of the fact that Prophet pbuh specifically told it to us or not while it falls under Mubah Ibadat where we are allowed to choose any time which is not forbidden by Islam.It is sad that reciting Darood before Azaan is considered Bidah by them, but praying Tarawih for complete 30 days not. Remember, the Sharia came only and only upon Prophet pbuh through revelation which was brought by Jibrael (as). And Sahaba and Rashid Caliphs followed only and only that Sharia of Muhammad and they have never ever introduced any practice in it at their own. Therefore Hazrat Umar (rz) was not introducing a NEW Bidah when he let the Tarawih to go for 30 complete nights of Ramazan or to complete whole Quran during those 30 nights. He (rz) did it while it is a Mubah Act of Ibadaat and fully allowed despite it being a new thing.

Same is the case with celebrating Eid Milad-un-Nabi, where it is Mubah (completely allowed) to sit in circles and do the ZIKR of Prophet pbuh (despite the fact that Prophet pbuh did it himself or not).

Here is the Hadith where Sahaba are sitting in circles at their own (without any prior orders of Prophet pbuh) and doing Zikr of Allah at their own:


Sahih Muslim, Book 035, Number 6521: (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/035.smt.html#035.6521)

Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Mu'awiya went to a circle in the mosque and said: What makes you sit here? They said: We are sitting here in order to re- member Allah. He said: I adjure you by Allah (to tell me whether you are sitting here for this very purpose)? They said: By Allah, we are sitting here for this very purpose. Thereupon, he said: I have not demanded you to take an oath, because of any allegation against you and none of my rank in the eye of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is the narrator of so few ahadith as I am. The fact is that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) went out to the circle of his Companions and said: What makes you sit? They said: We are sitting here in order to remember Allah and to praise Him for He guided us to the path of Islam and He conferred favours upgn us. Thereupon he adjured by Allah and asked if that only was the purpose of their sitting there. They said: By Allah, we are not sitting here but for this very purpose, whereupon he (the Messenger) said: I am not asking you to take an oath because of any allegation against you but for the fact that Gabriel came to me and he informed me that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, was talking to the angels about your magnificence.

You see that this NEW Act by Sahabah Karam didn't become misguided Bidah while it was a NEW Act. Look at hadith that Prophet pbuh is not angry upon Sahaba and not telling them that they are indulged in Misguidance and innovation by doing this new act of ZIKR while sitting in circles. No, but Prophet pbuh is telling them that Allah the Exalted Himself was talking to to the angels about their magnificence for doing this NEW Act of Zikr (Ibadaat) at their own.

Now look at another incident where a Sahabi is choosing to do a MUBAH Action according to his own Ijtehaad and Opinion and at time which was never told before by Prophet pbuh.


Bukhari and Muslim relate from Abu Hurayra (rz) that at the dawn prayer the Prophet pbuh said to Bilal, "Bilal, tell me which of your acts in Islam you are most hopeful about, for I have heard the footfall of your sandals in paradise", and he replied, "I have done nothing I am more hopeful about than the fact that I do not perform ablution at any time of the night or day without praying with that ablution whatever has been destined for me to pray."

Ibn Hajar Asqalani says in Fath al-Bari that the hadith shows it is permissible to use personal reasoning (ijtihad) in choosing times for acts of worship, for Bilal reached the conclusions he mentioned by his own inference, and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) confirmed him therein.

And now look at the following Hadith about ZIKR where a Sahabi is choosing the Mubah action of ZIKR and Prophet pbuh confirming his action.


Bukhari and Muslim relate that Rifa'a ibn Rafi said, "When we were praying behind the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and he raised his head from bowing and said, "Allah hears whoever praises Him", a man behind him said, "Our Lord, Yours is the praise, abundantly, wholesomely, and blessedly therein." When he rose to leave, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) asked, "who said it", and when the man replied that it was he, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "I saw thirty-odd angels each striving to be the one to write it." Ibn Hajar says in Fath al-Bari that the hadith indicates the permissibility of initiating new expressions of dhikr in the prayer other than the ones related through hadith texts, as long as they do not contradict those conveyed by the hadith [since the above words were a mere enhancement and addendum to the known, Sunna dhikr].

There are tens of Ahadith regarding these NEW MUBAH Acts which I will present next time. Let us wait for dear members Xohaib & co. to give us their response about these Proofs.

Alam_dar
24th September 2010, 06:44
Good post because he called me wahabis?
These things,like khatam,peeri faqeeri,marriage rituals have all come from hindus.
why would you do essale sawab for your father,making dua for him will have more benefit.
Just make a dua that God forgive him(dont go to the peer or ameer).he may listen to you and firgives you father.
(my Grand father was also into peeri faqeeri)


Firstly do you even know what shirk is?Or for you every argument is shirk?

I havent seen a good peer in my life,1 I know keeps on singing qawwalis,other one takes money for doing someones work,and everybody knows of per allowdin

Even if there is a peer,how you know ALLAH has accepted all his IBADAT?
And why would you ask him for Dua,I have no problem in it,but doing baet,than calling him peer and than yourself mureed is nothing related to religion.
ALLah wants you to bow to him,and ask for dua,not bowing to peer.

Xohaib dear, I am afraid your Ulama are not telling the full truth to you. It is agreed that present day Peeri Faqeeri is perhaps 90% corrupt. But still this thing should not make us blind that we start refusing all the Halals of Allah and blame them for being Harams at our own.

You blamed people for "Taking Money" and you also denied that such people exist. In the following Hadith, you will see that such people indeed exist and Prophet pbuh himself took the share in money.


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 632:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Some of the companions of the Prophet came across a tribe amongst the tribes of the Arabs, and that tribe did not entertain them. While they were in that state, the chief of that tribe was bitten by a snake (or stung by a scorpion). They said, (to the companions of the Prophet ), "Have you got any medicine with you or anybody who can treat with Ruqya?" The Prophet's companions said, "You refuse to entertain us, so we will not treat (your chief) unless you pay us for it." So they agreed to pay them a flock of sheep. One of them (the Prophet's companions) started reciting Surat-al-Fatiha and gathering his saliva and spitting it (at the snake-bite). The patient got cured and his people presented the sheep to them, but they said, "We will not take it unless we ask the Prophet (whether it is lawful)." When they asked him, he smiled and said, "How do you know that Surat-al-Fatiha is a Ruqya? Take it (flock of sheep) and assign a share for me."

This tradition is repeatedly recorded in many hadith books.

More from this Hadith is conclusion that DHIKR from Other person could even benefit the LIVING Person (contrary to your claim that DHIKR of other person could not benefit others, neither Dead nor the Living ones).

This hadith also proves that Sahabi did this NEW MUBAH Act of Ruqya at his own while he knew there is Shifa and Barakah in the ZIKR of Allah. And when Prophet pbuh came to know about this NEW Mubah Act, then he didn't blamed it to be misguided Innovation, but watch that Allah had already cured that person due to the Barakah of that NEW MUBAH Act of reciting Fatiha.

Xohaib
24th September 2010, 09:33
I said taking money for Sifarish.

Xohaib
24th September 2010, 09:35
but if he does do it thats a plus really.

i can put 1000 of examples down about the pious people of past, sheikh abdul qadir jilani of baghdad, use to sleep 2 hours a day after zuhar, and that was about it, he use to teach from morning to zohar, then after he got up untill isha, he use to learn and teach, at night time he use to pray to ALlah SWT.

A good peer of today doesnt just do ibadat all day along, teaching their mureedens and other people be their first aim, and any extra time they use it to worship the Almighty Allah SWT.

Shaikh abdul qadir jilani was a good.pious man and a very good teacher,No need to be his mureed and do baet.

Xohaib
24th September 2010, 09:46
Dear Xohaib & party, I have two Questions for you:

Question 1: Prophet pbuh prayed the Night Prayer of Tarawih for only 3 nights (alternative nights?). Please tell us from where came the order of praying Tarawih for complete 30 nights of Ramazan?

Question 2: Prophet pbuh didn't complete whole Quran during those 3 nights of Tarawih prayer. Now tell us from why you then complete the whole Quran during Tarawih?

For us the answer is very simple that all these are MUBAH Actions and not against any Established Sunnah/Principle of Islam and thus fully allowed. For us Mubah Actions mean you are allowed to choose yourself the timings of doing any Good Action.
It is just like we say Darood before Azaan as it is Mubah to recite Darood at any time in Islam. Similarly praying Tarawih for 30 nights is fully allowed regardless of the fact that Prophet pbuh specifically told it to us or not while it falls under Mubah Ibadat where we are allowed to choose any time which is not forbidden by Islam.It is sad that reciting Darood before Azaan is considered Bidah by them, but praying Tarawih for complete 30 days not. Remember, the Sharia came only and only upon Prophet pbuh through revelation which was brought by Jibrael (as). And Sahaba and Rashid Caliphs followed only and only that Sharia of Muhammad and they have never ever introduced any practice in it at their own. Therefore Hazrat Umar (rz) was not introducing a NEW Bidah when he let the Tarawih to go for 30 complete nights of Ramazan or to complete whole Quran during those 30 nights. He (rz) did it while it is a Mubah Act of Ibadaat and fully allowed despite it being a new thing.

Same is the case with celebrating Eid Milad-un-Nabi, where it is Mubah (completely allowed) to sit in circles and do the ZIKR of Prophet pbuh (despite the fact that Prophet pbuh did it himself or not).

Here is the Hadith where Sahaba are sitting in circles at their own (without any prior orders of Prophet pbuh) and doing Zikr of Allah at their own:


Sahih Muslim, Book 035, Number 6521: (http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/035.smt.html#035.6521)

Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Mu'awiya went to a circle in the mosque and said: What makes you sit here? They said: We are sitting here in order to re- member Allah. He said: I adjure you by Allah (to tell me whether you are sitting here for this very purpose)? They said: By Allah, we are sitting here for this very purpose. Thereupon, he said: I have not demanded you to take an oath, because of any allegation against you and none of my rank in the eye of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is the narrator of so few ahadith as I am. The fact is that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) went out to the circle of his Companions and said: What makes you sit? They said: We are sitting here in order to remember Allah and to praise Him for He guided us to the path of Islam and He conferred favours upgn us. Thereupon he adjured by Allah and asked if that only was the purpose of their sitting there. They said: By Allah, we are not sitting here but for this very purpose, whereupon he (the Messenger) said: I am not asking you to take an oath because of any allegation against you but for the fact that Gabriel came to me and he informed me that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, was talking to the angels about your magnificence.

You see that this NEW Act by Sahabah Karam didn't become misguided Bidah while it was a NEW Act. Look at hadith that Prophet pbuh is not angry upon Sahaba and not telling them that they are indulged in Misguidance and innovation by doing this new act of ZIKR while sitting in circles. No, but Prophet pbuh is telling them that Allah the Exalted Himself was talking to to the angels about their magnificence for doing this NEW Act of Zikr (Ibadaat) at their own.

Now look at another incident where a Sahabi is choosing to do a MUBAH Action according to his own Ijtehaad and Opinion and at time which was never told before by Prophet pbuh.


Bukhari and Muslim relate from Abu Hurayra (rz) that at the dawn prayer the Prophet pbuh said to Bilal, "Bilal, tell me which of your acts in Islam you are most hopeful about, for I have heard the footfall of your sandals in paradise", and he replied, "I have done nothing I am more hopeful about than the fact that I do not perform ablution at any time of the night or day without praying with that ablution whatever has been destined for me to pray."

Ibn Hajar Asqalani says in Fath al-Bari that the hadith shows it is permissible to use personal reasoning (ijtihad) in choosing times for acts of worship, for Bilal reached the conclusions he mentioned by his own inference, and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) confirmed him therein.

And now look at the following Hadith about ZIKR where a Sahabi is choosing the Mubah action of ZIKR and Prophet pbuh confirming his action.


Bukhari and Muslim relate that Rifa'a ibn Rafi said, "When we were praying behind the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and he raised his head from bowing and said, "Allah hears whoever praises Him", a man behind him said, "Our Lord, Yours is the praise, abundantly, wholesomely, and blessedly therein." When he rose to leave, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) asked, "who said it", and when the man replied that it was he, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "I saw thirty-odd angels each striving to be the one to write it." Ibn Hajar says in Fath al-Bari that the hadith indicates the permissibility of initiating new expressions of dhikr in the prayer other than the ones related through hadith texts, as long as they do not contradict those conveyed by the hadith [since the above words were a mere enhancement and addendum to the known, Sunna dhikr].

There are tens of Ahadith regarding these NEW MUBAH Acts which I will present next time. Let us wait for dear members Xohaib & co. to give us their response about these Proofs.
I DIDnt pray one traweeh this ramzan,If you dont want to do it than dont,MUhammad PBUH didnt pray traweeh everyday because he thought it will become a farz and very difficult one,so it is just a sunnah as is Completeing quran.
Praying durood before Izan is not bidah if you dont make it part of the religion.
You can recite durood in youre heart.
how do you celebrate eid milad un nabi?
By throwing money to put light on the street?It is just a waste of money,If you want to celebrate it,do it in a mosque,pray a namaz.
Stop copy paste so much,I cannot read so much.

IAJ
24th September 2010, 10:02
I DIDnt pray one traweeh this ramzan,If you dont want to do it than dont,MUhammad PBUH didnt pray traweeh everyday because he thought it will become a farz and very difficult one,so it is just a sunnah as is Completeing quran.Praying durood before Izan is not bidah if you dont make it part of the religion.
You can recite durood in youre heart.
how do you celebrate eid milad un nabi?
By throwing money to put light on the street?It is just a waste of money,If you want to celebrate it,do it in a mosque,pray a namaz.
Stop copy paste so much,I cannot read so much.

Performaing Tarawih is Sunnah mu'aqqadh, a confirmed sunnah. To make it a habit to leave a confirmed sunnah is sinful. Sayyiduna Umar (RA) called it "an excellent bid'a".

And do also remember that the beloved Prophet (s.a.w) said " follow my sunnah and follow my sahaba's sunna".

Whenever one of your children has birthday, you decorate your house with ballons and other party articles and when people put up light on the street to celebrate the mawlid of the Best of the the creation you guys start complaining. Really studid!

Alam_dar
24th September 2010, 11:02
I DIDnt pray one traweeh this ramzan,If you dont want to do it than dont,MUhammad PBUH didnt pray traweeh everyday because he thought it will become a farz and very difficult one,so it is just a sunnah as is Completeing quran.
Praying durood before Izan is not bidah if you dont make it part of the religion.
You can recite durood in youre heart.
how do you celebrate eid milad un nabi?
By throwing money to put light on the street?It is just a waste of money,If you want to celebrate it,do it in a mosque,pray a namaz.
Stop copy paste so much,I cannot read so much.

Dear Xohaib, we are talking here about the Definition of Bidah and if this NEW Practice of praying Tarawih for 30 nights & secondly this NEW practice of completing whole Quran during these Tarawih prayer becomes under your Definition of Bidah or not?
If not, then you have to accept the Principle that NOT every NEW Act is misguided Bidah.
We are not concerned either you have offered Tarawih during Ramadhan or not, we are talking here about the Practice of MUSLIMS for the last 14 centuries if they are committing misguided Bidah by offering Tarawih for 30 nights and completing whole Quran or not.
For surely the people who are performing Tarawih for the last 14 Centuries, they have never taken it as obligatory part of the Deen. And nor did the Muslims have taken it the obligatory part of Deen to recite Darood before Azaan. How strange that you people have been continuously blaming Darood before Azaan to be misguided Bidah, but have never blamed Tarawih for this (while your masses yourself practice this Tarawih). And why the CONDITION of reciting it in hearts? Is it written in Quran? Or has Prophet pbuh told you? Show us where has it been written that reciting Darood loudly before Azaan is misguided Bidah?
Regarding Eid Miladun Nabi, you have to make it clear that is it misguided Bidah, or is it Israaf that you are criticizing? You only wrote lightening the houses and streets, which does not fall under misguided Bidah, but under Israaf. But your Ulama have been claiming Eid Miladun Nabi to be misguided Bidah, and we have proved that it is not. It is simply a MUBAH act which has lot of rewards as has been proved in the Hadith above from Sahih Muslim where Sahaba used to sit in circles and do ZIKR at their own. And when Prophet pbuh came to know about this New Mubah Act, he did not blamed it to be misguided bidah, but deemed it to be very very praiseworthy act.

I see you are still on the path of blaming us for the HINDU practices, while we have proved beyond any doubts that either it is Isaale Sawab or doing Ruqa (reciting Surah Fatiha and other Surahs) upon others and then taking money for it, we have not taken these practices from Hindus but from the Sunnah of Prophet pbuh.

Sufi Malang
24th September 2010, 12:15
You guys are banging your head against a wall here. Just look at the way they are responding. Firstly, they require you to give reference from Quran & Hadith books and when people posted that, this is what they have to say.


The copy paste merchants have completely taken over this thread. They can't put together a decent argument themselves, but will that stop them from pasting pages upon pages of copied data (which they have themselves not read and understood), hell no!


Stop copy paste so much,I cannot read so much.


Now what does that imply? Is that a way of running away from the argument that when presented with facts and references, they ask you not to do so, i am really amazed :)



Because the Brelvi "Mullahs" of the subcontinent who are greatly influenced by Hindu traditions really love that halwa.

Yes our Mullahs are blessed and they love eating Halwa unlike your Mullahs who are crow eaters :)

Momo
25th September 2010, 10:18
I am not saying the Quran is for only scholars only but to take laws and give fatwa is only done by people who are qualified to do so not by common man.

To become expert and give fatwa you have to learn Quranic arabic & Tafseer study Islamic sharia, study the hadeeth study fiqh and many more sciences relating to these under a teacher who is qualified and who has sanad in all these sciences then gives you ijaza to give fatwa.
What kind of a logic is this?

Let me ask you this: Say a person has studied all these things, and has got a permission too from some other "qualified" scholar. Will you then accept his fatwas blindly?

Will you accept his fatwa if he is say a Shia? Please don't skip this question; I will be looking forward to its answer.


If you do not have time to study all this then stick to opinions of ulema who are qualified to do so.
How do you know I have or have not studied these things?

Let me put essentially the same question in a slightly different form: Say there are two "qualified" scholars both equipped with the necessary "ijaazah", and they give you conflicting fatwas on a certain problem of yours. How will you ascertain whose opinion is correct/better?

Momo
25th September 2010, 10:28
You guys are banging your head against a wall here. Just look at the way they are responding. Firstly, they require you to give reference from Quran & Hadith books and when people posted that, this is what they have to say.
They say this because they want RELEVANT references, not just any random references from the Qur'an.

And the people who post the "references" don't know they are irreleveant because they have not read them themselves (copy-paste zindabaad).

The request to put together an argument and then supply a reference was in the hope that when they will type themselves, they will at least know what they are talking about. Gauging by the intelligence levels on display though, even that was a futile hope. :inzi


Now what does that imply? Is that a way of running away from the argument that when presented with facts and references, they ask you not to do so, i am really amazed :)
That implies that neither the people who posted those "references", nor you, sir, have ANY idea what they are talking about. Hope this clears away your amazement. :)


Yes our Mullahs are blessed and they love eating Halwa unlike your Mullahs who are crow eaters :)
Ah, the "my mullah is better than your mullah" slogan! I was worried because it had been two days without it. I was kinda missing it. :))

A word of caution: Your respective mullahs will go into their own graves and you in yours and myself in mine. Make sure you don't do silly things in life because your mullahs are not going to help you one bit in the Hereafter. Everybody is on his own.

Momo
25th September 2010, 10:52
I agree. The thread was good but it has now done my head in. Islam is meant to be simple.

Anyway, Momo and crew, I will not argue with you as I agree with your logic and how you have evidenced it.

I am a practical guy and what interests me is not the debate because, "you had me at hello"!

What does interest me is what your family beliefs are. All four of my grandparents are dead. I love my both my parents and they both believe in Khatams with the food etc. My father would not only be horrified but also furious if I stopped these traditions. He would also feel let down.

Yes we all go to our own graves and I am fully aware of that but it is one thing having a debate and one thing implementing it within your family, especially with elders.

I know what you have evidenced is correct but how have people gone onto change the mindset or culture of their families?

I am a married guy with children and have no such issues implementing this to them but what about my parents. If you think Afridi is tough then you aint met my father!
This is a tough one, Waq. I understand your situation, and it is not an easy one to be in. It's sometimes impossible to change somebody's views after a certain age.

There's only one thing to be done. That is, to talk in the best of ways possible, step by step, stopping at any sign of trouble.

If one can't change one's elders, the next best thing then is not to participate in these activities oneself. These things are difficult but they can be done. The key is to be patient and steadfast and gentle at the same time.

I won't go into too many details but I was born in a very devout Barelvi khaandaan myself (Qur'an "bakhshna", chaaleeswan, qul, saum, jumeraat, ....), But ever since I started thinking for myself, I have abhored these rituals. Then I did my own research and it was clear that these things were incompatible with the very fundamentals of Islam.

To be honest though, my father is a very understanding type (who himself is a very "bad" Barelvi), and in our household every person has a right to do whatever he thinks is right.

khan-92
25th September 2010, 15:01
What kind of a logic is this?

Let me ask you this: Say a person has studied all these things, and has got a permission too from some other "qualified" scholar. Will you then accept his fatwas blindly?

Will you accept his fatwa if he is say a Shia? Please don't skip this question; I will be looking forward to its answer.

How do you know I have or have not studied these things?

Let me put essentially the same question in a slightly different form: Say there are two "qualified" scholars both equipped with the necessary "ijaazah", and they give you conflicting fatwas on a certain problem of yours. How will you ascertain whose opinion is correct/better?

No I will not take a fatwa from shia because they are not honest and good of character because a muslim does not go around abusing other muslims let alone the Sahabah(ra) and considers lying to be virtous act ie:taqiyaa.

As for 2 scholors who are sound and honest and they have 2 diffrent opinions then for me as a laymen I can follow anyone of them with prooof and without proof it will be no sin on me as long as both opinions are within sharia.
Muslims follow Quran, Hadeeth & Fiqh these 3 are the foundations of Islamic law.
You say you have studied then give me your sanad in the sciences you have studied and the teacher you studied under?

sal2010
25th September 2010, 15:05
read this with great interest as this a topic I have often spoken to my mum about and the use of khatham as it is a waste of money why not just give that money to charity.

it seems sub continental muslims are always in a quandry are we doing things that are fore fathers did before they muslims or is it "true Islam".
i use to think all this peer stuff was purely a sub continental thing but i went to morrocco and found out how much they belived in them and they weren' influenced by hindus.

Islam is a faith for people all over the world and as long any practices are not haraam why say that it is haraam. last time i checked ibadat of any of sort is not haraam as you are remembering Allah (SWT) .

The biggest problem is muslims cannot cope with the differences within them and as stated there will be 70 sects (cannot quote verse/chapter) so why do we all thing that the Arab Islam is what we should all aspire too.

Xohaib
25th September 2010, 16:48
Dear Xohaib, we are talking here about the Definition of Bidah and if this NEW Practice of praying Tarawih for 30 nights & secondly this NEW practice of completing whole Quran during these Tarawih prayer becomes under your Definition of Bidah or not?
If not, then you have to accept the Principle that NOT every NEW Act is misguided Bidah.
We are not concerned either you have offered Tarawih during Ramadhan or not, we are talking here about the Practice of MUSLIMS for the last 14 centuries if they are committing misguided Bidah by offering Tarawih for 30 nights and completing whole Quran or not.
For surely the people who are performing Tarawih for the last 14 Centuries, they have never taken it as obligatory part of the Deen. And nor did the Muslims have taken it the obligatory part of Deen to recite Darood before Azaan. How strange that you people have been continuously blaming Darood before Azaan to be misguided Bidah, but have never blamed Tarawih for this (while your masses yourself practice this Tarawih). And why the CONDITION of reciting it in hearts? Is it written in Quran? Or has Prophet pbuh told you? Show us where has it been written that reciting Darood loudly before Azaan is misguided Bidah?
Regarding Eid Miladun Nabi, you have to make it clear that is it misguided Bidah, or is it Israaf that you are criticizing? You only wrote lightening the houses and streets, which does not fall under misguided Bidah, but under Israaf. But your Ulama have been claiming Eid Miladun Nabi to be misguided Bidah, and we have proved that it is not. It is simply a MUBAH act which has lot of rewards as has been proved in the Hadith above from Sahih Muslim where Sahaba used to sit in circles and do ZIKR at their own. And when Prophet pbuh came to know about this New Mubah Act, he did not blamed it to be misguided bidah, but deemed it to be very very praiseworthy act.

I see you are still on the path of blaming us for the HINDU practices, while we have proved beyond any doubts that either it is Isaale Sawab or doing Ruqa (reciting Surah Fatiha and other Surahs) upon others and then taking money for it, we have not taken these practices from Hindus but from the Sunnah of Prophet pbuh.

traweeh is no argument,it is a sunnah not a bidat,you can do sunnat everyday or not a single day.
But making new innovations,than sects out of it,and if someone doesnt follow it call him a kafir is not good.

IAJ
25th September 2010, 16:55
traweeh is no argument,it is a sunnah not a bidat,you can do sunnat everyday or not a single day.
But making new innovations,than sects out of it,and if someone doesnt follow it call him a kafir is not good.

You really should read a book on bid'a or contact a reliable scholar because I am afraid you haven't a clue about this topic :)

Xohaib
25th September 2010, 17:01
Performaing Tarawih is Sunnah mu'aqqadh, a confirmed sunnah. To make it a habit to leave a confirmed sunnah is sinful. Sayyiduna Umar (RA) called it "an excellent bid'a".

And do also remember that the beloved Prophet (s.a.w) said " follow my sunnah and follow my sahaba's sunna".

Whenever one of your children has birthday, you decorate your house with ballons and other party articles and when people put up light on the street to celebrate the mawlid of the Best of the the creation you guys start complaining. Really studid!

It may be excellent Bidah but it is not Sunnate mouqda,Can you post a refrence,what I know is that it is voluntary.

O bhai jan Celebrating Birthday and specialy wasting money on it is haram,we dont do it maybe you.Two wrong doesnt make it right.
Both are waste of money and haram.
These light are just for advertisements nothing else.
Donate you money to poor,you will get more sawab

Xohaib
25th September 2010, 17:03
You really should read a book on bid'a or contact a reliable scholar because I am afraid you haven't a clue about this topic :)

I know,but you are just making assumptions,

Alam_dar
25th September 2010, 17:22
traweeh is no argument,it is a sunnah not a bidat,you can do sunnat everyday or not a single day.

Xohaib dear, we are not talking here about Tarawih, but the NEW Action of prolonging it to the 30 nights of Ramazan and then NEW Action of Completing Quran during these 30 nights.

And if praying Tarawih is Sunnah, then please tell us if Reciting Darood is not a Sunnah? Actually reciting Darood is the Sunnah of Allah himself:

Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
Al-Qur'an Surah 33, Ayah 56

Why then you declare it a Bidah when we perform this Sunnah of Allah every day and five times a day?

Xohaib dear, I don't want to impose any thing upon any one. But my job was only to bring the Proofs from Quran and Sunnah in the best possible way. I request you to pay attention to the fact that Mubah Ibadaat are Allowed in Islam. Don't make them Haram at your own.

Free Hit
25th September 2010, 17:24
traweeh is no argument,it is a sunnah not a bidat,you can do sunnat everyday or not a single day.
But making new innovations,than sects out of it,and if someone doesnt follow it call him a kafir is not good.

:facepalm: then why do you people call us kafir, if someone doesnt follow a book written by abdul wahab in which he compare prophet Muhammad PBUH with donkey(na'uzubillah), does that mean that he has a different sect, a sect which was innovated by some random person.

we do milad you people call it a shirk, meaning calling us kafir, we read quran for asale sawab for the dead one's in families, you people call it shirk, meaning calling us kafir, we say Ya Muhammad, you people call it shirk, meaning calling us kafir.

yet the blame is on sunni's for creating a new sect!

Xohaib
25th September 2010, 18:21
Xohaib dear, we are not talking here about Tarawih, but the NEW Action of prolonging it to the 30 nights of Ramazan and then NEW Action of Completing Quran during these 30 nights.

And if praying Tarawih is Sunnah, then please tell us if Reciting Darood is not a Sunnah? Actually reciting Darood is the Sunnah of Allah himself:

Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
Al-Qur'an Surah 33, Ayah 56

Why then you declare it a Bidah when we perform this Sunnah of Allah every day and five times a day?

Xohaib dear, I don't want to impose any thing upon any one. But my job was only to bring the Proofs from Quran and Sunnah in the best possible way. I request you to pay attention to the fact that Mubah Ibadaat are Allowed in Islam. Don't make them Haram at your own.

Firstly there is nothing as Allahs Sunnah,you dont do things because ALAAH does them
Once I asked My teacher why do you light up roads and waste money,he said because ALLAH lightened up the sky when MUHAMMAD PBUH was born,even if sky was lightened it doesnt mean we should also do it,ALLAH kills his people,It doesnt mean we should also kill people.
So with you argument we should go round kaaba 50 times.why not'7 times gives us so much sawab than why not 50 times.
recite durood whenever you want where ever,but why on mike every time,it is like you are showing off that you are bralevi and you cannot do azan with out.
And If I dont recite it I am not bralevi.

Xohaib
25th September 2010, 18:29
:facepalm: then why do you people call us kafir, if someone doesnt follow a book written by abdul wahab in which he compare prophet Muhammad PBUH with donkey(na'uzubillah), does that mean that he has a different sect, a sect which was innovated by some random person.

we do milad you people call it a shirk, meaning calling us kafir, we read quran for asale sawab for the dead one's in families, you people call it shirk, meaning calling us kafir, we say Ya Muhammad, you people call it shirk, meaning calling us kafir.

yet the blame is on sunni's for creating a new sect!

who is Abdul wahab I dont know anything about it,I havent called myself anything,not wahabi not bralevi.
I have no sect.
If you say Ya Ali when in need of help you are doing shirk similarly it is with Ya Mohammed.

Free Hit
25th September 2010, 18:44
who is Abdul wahab I dont know anything about it,I havent called myself anything,not wahabi not bralevi.
I have no sect.
If you say Ya Ali when in need of help you are doing shirk similarly it is with Ya Mohammed.

Yeh tau kabhi ho hi nahi sakta!

in first half of your post you have no sect, in second half of the post you do have a sect:yk

but thats your beliefs, fair enough, you people believe Muhammad PBUH was a normal person like us, who came and untill the age of 40 he didnt knew he was Allah Prophet, then he got The wahi and the naboowat at the age of 40, he didnt know what was happening on the other side of the wall even when he was alive, you people believe Muhammad PBUH is dead now and his chapter is closed like all the other human beings.

yet still we do the shirk! :98:

Hail-Akram
25th September 2010, 18:47
About title: it is because when someone dies, wo khatam ho jata hai !

ok, apologies for the lame attempt at a joke ... I know its not funny :P

Xohaib
25th September 2010, 18:50
Yeh tau kabhi ho hi nahi sakta!

in first half of your post you have no sect, in second half of the post you do have a sect:yk

but thats your beliefs, fair enough, you people believe Muhammad PBUH was a normal person like us, who came and untill the age of 40 he didnt knew he was Allah Prophet, then he got The wahi and the naboowat at the age of 40, he didnt know what was happening on the other side of the wall even when he was alive, you people believe Muhammad PBUH is dead now and his chapter is closed like all the other human beings.

yet still we do the shirk! :98:

I say I have no sect these are my own feelings,I say Muhammad PBUH was a human being and anything he knew was from ALLAH as wahi.
Ya Muhammad is Shirk I dont know if you do it or not.

6xafridi
25th September 2010, 19:04
The problem is, you have been brought up with these values. If someone objects, you automatically get so offended.. free hit is a prime example. I was brought up around 'Barelvis' but I chose to think for myself.

Celebrating the Prophet's birthday did not exist back in the day - Bid'ah
Praying Taraweeh did exist - NOT Bid'ah
Having a Qur'an Khaani for a special occasion - Bid'ah
etc etc.

It's very simple.. If something related to the deen did not exist at the time of the Prophet, it is an innovation. I hope we can agree.

Free Hit
25th September 2010, 19:08
I say I have no sect these are my own feelings,I say Muhammad PBUH was a human being and anything he knew was from ALLAH as wahi.
Ya Muhammad is Shirk I dont know if you do it or not.

Thats may be because Allah has said it In the Quran do not call Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon Him when he's alive, its disrespect to the prophet PBUH. so people started saying Ya nabi, Ya RasoolAllah.

2. Prophet PBUH said, Prophets never die, it is haram for the earth to eat their flesh.

3.Ya in quran means O, i.e. Aay Muhammad PBUH, O Allah, so then if you believe Prophet PBUH is dead then who do you say Ayyuhan-nabiyyu when you read namaz, which means Peace be Upon You O Prophet.

IAJ
25th September 2010, 20:39
who is Abdul wahab I dont know anything about it,I havent called myself anything,not wahabi not bralevi.
I have no sect.
If you say Ya Ali when in need of help you are doing shirk similarly it is with Ya Mohammed.

I really don't know what to say to you, and I can't believe you are from mirpur too :110:

This is what you said in another post:

And I am proud to be wahabi.

#6 http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=106764

Free Hit
25th September 2010, 20:44
I really don't know what to say to you, and I can't believe you are from mirpur too :110:

This is what you said in another post:

And I am proud to be wahabi.

#6 http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=106764

IAJ there might be some other meaning to this, the post is not quiet clear enough, have you got some other evidences, and no copy and paste please!:yk

IAJ
25th September 2010, 20:53
IAJ there might be some other meaning to this, the post is not quiet clear enough, have you got some other evidences, and no copy and paste please!:yk

Didn't get you.

In one of his posts here he said he hasn't called himself wahabi or brelvi but I remembered he said that he was wahabi.

Of course there can be other meaning but Zahiran he stated he was wahabi.

Sufi Malang
25th September 2010, 21:03
They say this because they want RELEVANT references, not just any random references from the Qur'an.

And who is going to decide whether the reference they gave is relevant or not? You and your wahabi brigade?


And the people who post the "references" don't know they are irreleveant because they have not read them themselves (copy-paste zindabaad).


Thats your assumption that they have not read it themselves. How do you know that they haven't studied it before posting???



The request to put together an argument and then supply a reference was in the hope that when they will type themselves, they will at least know what they are talking about. Gauging by the intelligence levels on display though, even that was a futile hope. :inzi


Again mere assumption that they dont know what they are talking about? My friend, references from Quran and Hadith are always copy pasted from Authentic sources and not typed by someone in order to avoid any errors. Is that a wrong practice? I don't think so...



That implies that neither the people who posted those "references", nor you, sir, have ANY idea what they are talking about. Hope this clears away your amazement. :)


No this doesn't clear my amazement. You still fail to come up with a logical answer and only thing you have to say is that we don't know what we are saying and that the references posted are irrelevant. Well done! nice try but come up with some substance next time if you want to clear my amazement rather than ignoring what others are posting.



Ah, the "my mullah is better than your mullah" slogan! I was worried because it had been two days without it. I was kinda missing it. :))

A word of caution: Your respective mullahs will go into their own graves and you in yours and myself in mine. Make sure you don't do silly things in life because your mullahs are not going to help you one bit in the Hereafter. Everybody is on his own.

Take it easy my friend. It was a sarcastic reply (look the smiley i made at the end) to someone who was trying to have a go at some Brelvi Mullahs. It seems you took it quite seriously, relax :ajmal

Free Hit
25th September 2010, 21:19
Didn't get you.

In one of his posts here he said he hasn't called himself wahabi or brelvi but I remembered he said that he was wahabi.

Of course there can be other meaning but Zahiran he stated he was wahabi.

am surprised you didnt get me, did you get these people when whenever you post something about quran and sunnah evidence these people come out with these random excuses about not clear enough, dont copy and paste.

thats why i said, who knows to xoaib there might be some other meaning to his comments.

IAJ
25th September 2010, 21:37
am surprised you didnt get me, did you get these people when whenever you post something about quran and sunnah evidence these people come out with these random excuses about not clear enough, dont copy and paste.

thats why i said, who knows to xoaib there might be some other meaning to his comments.

Hehe, lolz, sorry, my bad that I didn't pick your point :)

Momo
26th September 2010, 01:39
And who is going to decide whether the reference they gave is relevant or not? You and your wahabi brigade?
There comes the Wahabi card! You people are masters of ad hominem aren't you?

Wahabi or Barelvi friends won't decide the matter. Each party will provide its evidence and discuss the matter and reason will decide who is right and wrong. But your side doesn't believe in reason and independent thinking in the first place ('you have to be "qualified" unless you have a to follow "scholars" who know') so I am afraid there is no way these things can be resolved.


Thats your assumption that they have not read it themselves. How do you know that they haven't studied it before posting???
By the way what is your statement that I am a Wahabi if not an assumption?

As for they having not read them, well that is not an assumption. I have read a few of Alam_dar's copy-paste jobs and pointed out the problems with that but he hasn't come back with a response (posts 103, posts 105 are unanswered). That's because some of the stuff he posted was indefensible (it was so irrelevant).

If you think it was not, you are free to reply to posts 103 and 105. :)



Again mere assumption that they dont know what they are talking about? My friend, references from Quran and Hadith are always copy pasted from Authentic sources and not typed by someone in order to avoid any errors. Is that a wrong practice? I don't think so...
Bold part already addressed: they are not mere assumptions.

I am not necessarily asking you to type the Qur'an references themselves. I am asking you guys to construct the argument yourself and then you are free to copy paste the reference. What you people do is copy paste the entire thing from some dubious web-page (arguments and all - and I can tell you most of those arguments are pathetic).

Start using your brains because you will be asked how you used your brain. Stop relying on ignorant mullahs with their own agendas to reinforce your preconceived notions of Islam inherited from your forefathers.


No this doesn't clear my amazement. You still fail to come up with a logical answer and only thing you have to say is that we don't know what we are saying and that the references posted are irrelevant. Well done! nice try but come up with some substance next time if you want to clear my amazement rather than ignoring what others are posting.
That's because you haven't read the thread. :) A good point to start will be to reply to posts 103 and 105 (as the one who came up with the copy-paste stuff is not replying).

I will be waiting. :)

Momo
26th September 2010, 01:56
No I will not take a fatwa from shia because they are not honest and good of character because a muslim does not go around abusing other muslims let alone the Sahabah(ra) and considers lying to be virtous act ie:taqiyaa.
Thank you. So you have agreed with me that being "qualified" isn't enough. Actually it can be meaningless whether a person has certain degrees or not.

[I am not commenting on Shia's being dishonest and of bad character here though.]


As for 2 scholors who are sound and honest and they have 2 diffrent opinions then for me as a laymen I can follow anyone of them with prooof and without proof it will be no sin on me as long as both opinions are within sharia.

Muslims follow Quran, Hadeeth & Fiqh these 3 are the foundations of Islamic law.
There we go again. Another example of circular thinking. Mere bhai, how will you decide if a certain thing is within sharia or not?

And what do you mean by with proof and without proof?


You say you have studied then give me your sanad in the sciences you have studied and the teacher you studied under?
So you will only take me seriously depending on my teacher, and not depending on what I am actually saying, right?

That is a sure shot recipe for follwing a certain sect for centuries without ever considering other opinions. For all your know, your sect may be wrong on many issues, but because you don't even listen to anybody who doesn't have a certificate from your favourite scholars, you will never learn whether or not you were wrong on certain issues.

This kind of thinking ("But my forefathers and buzurgs did this, and how could they be wrong!") is one of the things the Rasool Allah came to demolish. Unfortunately, it is still going strong amongst Muslims (of all people).

Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi raajioon.

khan-92
26th September 2010, 02:43
Thank you. So you have agreed with me that being "qualified" isn't enough. Actually it can be meaningless whether a person has certain degrees or not.


Just being qualified is not the only criteria being of sound aqeedah honesty, truthfullness and taqwa are also very important in Islam.



And what do you mean by with proof and without proof?

For example the classical scholars Imam Abu Hanaeefah(rah) and the other 3 great mujtahid Imams if a common man ask them for a fatwa they told him halal, haraam or makruh etc but if a scholar went to them they gave proofs from Quran and Haddeth and there scholary ijthihaad in reaching that opinion.
So for common person following a opinion of a sound scholar is valid without proof.


So you will only take me seriously depending on my teacher, and not depending on what I am actually saying, right?

It is not just your teacher it is your scholary knowledge and your character how do I know what kind of a person you are the ulema are known amongst there communities you can not take opinion of someone behind a computer screen.
you need to see this in what I mean who are the true scholars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2psZeN2ZcV4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm_6LroGn3Y&feature=related


hat is a sure shot recipe for follwing a certain sect for centuries without ever considering other opinions. For all your know, your sect may be wrong on many issues, but because you don't even listen to anybody who doesn't have a certificate from your favourite scholars, you will never learn whether or not you were wrong on certain issues.

This kind of thinking ("But my forefathers and buzurgs did this, and how could they be wrong!") is one of the things the Rasool Allah came to demolish. Unfortunately, it is still going strong amongst Muslims (of all people).

Difference of opinion in fiqhi masails has existed for centuries and me following a valid opinion has nothing to do with my sect or my qualified scholars as long it has its basis in Quran, Hadeeth and Fiqh there is nothing wrong in following that opinion and respecting Different opinions then what you follow.

But unfortunely what I see from you is nothing but arrogance you think you are right you know better then these scholars you have a translation of Quran and hadeeth and you can take your own masails. I rather follow the people of knowledge then people of information who think there Opinions is correct and other's are wrong just because they do not have same opinion as them.

Alam_dar
26th September 2010, 06:00
Firstly there is nothing as Allahs Sunnah,you dont do things because ALAAH does them

Momo, just look here and you would find why brother Khan is correct when he stresses we have to look into the opinions of Scholars first before ourselves starting interpreting Quran and Sunnah (while we are most of the part Jahils and don't know the other parts of Quran and Sunnah).

Allah Himself says in Surah Fatir:

فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا

ترجمہ:

سو آپ اﷲ کی سنت میں ہرگز کوئی تبدیلی نہیں پائیں گے، اور نہ ہی اﷲ کی سنت میں ہرگز کوئی پھرنا پائیں گے

ٰIt proves that Sunnah word is not only related to Prophet pbuh, but it is used in sense of Practice in Quran for Allah.

And it is very strange when Xohaib claims that we don't do things while Allah does.

Allah does Justice and we are also asked to do the justice. And regarding reciting Darood, the verse was very very clear where Allah is saying he sends Darood upon Prophet pbuh, and then in next part of Ayah Allah is demanding the Momineen to do the same.

Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
Al-Qur'an Surah 33, Ayah 56

Are you still unable to see these 2 parts of Ayah?


Once I asked My teacher why do you light up roads and waste money,he said because ALLAH lightened up the sky when MUHAMMAD PBUH was born,even if sky was lightened it doesnt mean we should also do it,ALLAH kills his people,It doesnt mean we should also kill people.

It is strange you are still coming up with such type of excuses even after we have presented you the clear Ayah of Quran where Allah Himself saying He and Angles sends Darood upon Prophet pbuh, and then Allah is asking the Momineen to do the same.


So with you argument we should go round kaaba 50 times.why not'7 times gives us so much sawab than why not 50 times.

You don't considering the rule of Mubah Ibadaat in Islam, which says every Nafl Ibadaat is allowed till the time is doesn't contradict any Established rule of Sharia. And rule of Sharia is to do the Sai (7 times). You are allowed to do as many Umras and as many Sais as you like.

About the Mubah Ibadaat, I posted many clear Ahadith of Prophet pbuh before, but you are not ready to ponder upon them.


recite durood whenever you want where ever,but why on mike every time,it is like you are showing off that you are bralevi and you cannot do azan with out.

Xohaib, you are very hard upon me and on the topic. I constantly asked you to forget what brailvi do or the other people do. How would you feel if some one says that you people never recite Darood while you have to show you are Wahabies? Does it hurt you?

Again and again we are attacked we are following Hindu customs, while sending Darood upon Prophet pbuh is not what Barailvies do, but it is centuries old tradition now and is practices all over the Sunni Arab world.

Xohaib, I asked you to prove us that Prophet pbuh has made it Haram to send Darood upon him loudly. If you have no proofs, then you could not simply declare it Haram by attacking the Barailvi crap.

And here is one Tradition which shows doing NEW Mubah Zikr loudly is fully allowed in Islam:


Bukhari and Muslim relate that Rifa'a ibn Rafi said, "When we were praying behind the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and he raised his head from bowing and said, "Allah hears whoever praises Him", a man behind him said (loudly), "Our Lord, Yours is the praise, abundantly, wholesomely, and blessedly therein." When he rose to leave, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) asked, "who said it", and when the man replied that it was he, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "I saw thirty-odd angels each striving to be the one to write it." Ibn Hajar says in Fath al-Bari that the hadith indicates the permissibility of initiating new expressions of dhikr in the prayer other than the ones related through hadith texts, as long as they do not contradict those conveyed by the hadith [since the above words were a mere enhancement and addendum to the known, Sunna dhikr].

And here once again saying the Zikr in loud voice is not Haram.


Fadalah bin ‘Ubayd reported: Allah’s Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was sitting amongst us, there entered a person and he prayed as saying (loudly), "O Allah! Forgive me, have mercy upon me." Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said, "O worshipper! You have made haste in praying. When you pray and sit (at the end) laud Allah of what He is worthy of and send blessings upon me and then supplicate Him." The narrator said: Then another man prayed after him and he lauded Allah and invoked blessings of Allah upon the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to him, "O worshipper! Make a supplication and it would be responded."

Reference

►Tirmidhi related in al-Jai‘-us-saheeh, b. of da‘awat (supplications) ch.65 (5: 516 # 3476) and graded it hasan (fair)

Geordie Ahmed
26th September 2010, 06:57
No I will not take a fatwa from shia because they are not honest and good of character because a muslim does not go around abusing other muslims let alone the Sahabah(ra) and considers lying to be virtous act ie:taqiyaa.

As for 2 scholors who are sound and honest and they have 2 diffrent opinions then for me as a laymen I can follow anyone of them with prooof and without proof it will be no sin on me as long as both opinions are within sharia.
Muslims follow Quran, Hadeeth & Fiqh these 3 are the foundations of Islamic law.
You say you have studied then give me your sanad in the sciences you have studied and the teacher you studied under?

Without wanting to get into the other part of the discussion, I want to ask you about the bit I have bolded

What if 2 scholars give you differing opinions on a subject, how would you know which one is "within sharia"?

Alam_dar
26th September 2010, 08:13
Without wanting to get into the other part of the discussion, I want to ask you about the bit I have bolded

What if 2 scholars give you differing opinions on a subject, how would you know which one is "within sharia"?

This Difference of Opinion is not only limited to Fuqaha, but there occurred a lot of difference of Opinions about Fiqh among the Sahaba too.
And we are taught to accept this Difference of Opinion between two Fuqaha, without starting to use all kind of bad language against them like Shirk, Bidah, Kufr, followers of Hindu traditions etc.
There is no other way to deal this difference of Opinion.

Nevertheless, here are we talking about difference of Opinion among two Fuqaha and not among two laymen who even don't know all the RELATED Quranic Verses and Ahadith on that Topic and start giving Fatwas by using only one hadith that they have heard.

Geordie Ahmed
26th September 2010, 08:34
This Difference of Opinion is not only limited to Fuqaha, but there occurred a lot of difference of Opinions about Fiqh among the Sahaba too.
And we are taught to accept this Difference of Opinion between two Fuqaha, without starting to use all kind of bad language against them like Shirk, Bidah, Kufr, followers of Hindu traditions etc.
There is no other way to deal this difference of Opinion.

Nevertheless, here are we talking about difference of Opinion among two Fuqaha and not among two laymen who even don't know all the RELATED Quranic Verses and Ahadith on that Topic and start giving Fatwas by using only one hadith that they have heard.

That doesn't really answer my question - respecting the opinions is fine BUT still leaves you in a situation of what to do?

A very basic example:

I want to know what to do when X occurs?

Scholar 1: you do Y

Scholar 2: you do Z

Now what?

Though note my question also stating how would you know something is "within shariah"?

Noork85
26th September 2010, 09:56
has this turned into a full blown debate?

You guys have to take into account the interpretations of the Hadeeths as well.
'sadqaa-e-khairyat' can mean and be alot of different things.

And didn't the Prophet (PBUH) encourage, when possible, getting together to pray and do ibadaat. Why would getting together to read the Quran be frowned upon?

Perhaps the negative spin on the word of the word Khatum has something to do with it. It immediately reminds one of an occassion to eat/socialize, because believe you me, it does happen.

lastly what is meant by the son can pray for the deceased? surely it does mean that one can pray for the bakshish of the deceased, and if u recite the Quran when you do that, all the better, no?

Oh and i dont think there's any concept of of a khatum for the deceased after 40 days, thats made up stuff, no two ways about that. I believe, it might be a hadeeth, not too sure, that you're not to mourn the person for more than 3 days.

pak4life
26th September 2010, 10:11
The third day, seventh day, forty day [chaliswa] and annual [bursi] remembrance are all esaale sawaab. On the third day after the prescribed period of mourning, flow of sympathizers and recitations a dua is read for the acceptance of our recitations within this three day period and to present the rewards to the deceased.

The seventh day proof is found recorded in Imam Jalalluddin Suyuti's (may Allah be well pleased with him) Sharrus Sudoor that the companions [sahaaba] used to give gifts [sadaqa] to serve as esaale sawaab for seven days after the funeral.

On the seventh day, the dua for acceptance is read.

The fortieth day! Let me explain the significance of forty. Hazrath Musa (may Allah bless him with peace) waited at Mount Tur [Sinai] for the revelation of the Torah for forty days and nights. Adam's (may Allah bless him with peace) constitution was fashioned in forty days. Most Prophets proclaimed prophethood at the age of forty. A foetus within the womb develops in periods of forty days. A mother that gives birth waits for forty days for her body to readapt to a non-pregnancy mode. Maturity is said to set in at the age of forty. If somebody reads salaah for forty days with congregation he becomes a consistent worshipper. To read forty salaah, is the Sunnah in Masjidun Nabawi. The Sufis practice retreat of forty days and some of forty years.

So forty has significance in Islamic practices. According to the hadith in Baihaqi, the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) said that when the dead is buried, for forty days the deceaseds attention is towards his or her home. The soul comes to the houses and goes. After forty days the attention is diverted from the home to the prevalent situation so we read and present a parting gift to the soul.

However this reading on the third day, seventh day and forty day [chaliswa] is neither farz nor waajib but highly recommended [mustahab]. If we do it is beneficial and if we don't there is no sin. However those that declare these practices as innovation [bidah] should refrain from branding those that do perform it!! Allah knows best

Free Hit
26th September 2010, 10:19
pak4life believe me you isn't going to succeed persuading these people to the truth.

i mean their should be a limit, the proofs are quiet clear for them to see yet, they still come up with these phrases of shirk, bidah, hindu traditions etc....

MR__KHAN__JI
26th September 2010, 10:23
Live and let live.

1) The Quran is Number 1 - It has been protected.
2) Everything else has not been protected.

The hadith collections are great! But they are open to everything we say the Bible is open to IE they are the words of men.

It is open to interpretation based on what your political beliefs are now (or what they were when they were written!).

The only things we know as ABSOLUTE FACT are what is in the Quran.
The other things are open to debate.

The fact that they are OPEN TO DEBATE means that whichever conclusion you come to is REASONABLE. God will judge us on HOW we came to our conclusion and how RIGHTEOUSLY we lived our lives.

There is NO WAY of PROVING one or the other right or wrong now.

Read Quran, read hadith (Sunni, Shia and Wahabi interpretations), read history. Take a view. Then live your life RIGHTEOUSLY.

Agree to disagree on matters we dispute - in the acceptance that one OR the other might be right - WE JUST DONT KNOW - We can judge and make an assessment based on the evidence we see - BUT WE JUST DONT KNOW!

I commend the Wahabi's for wanting to take fresh look at how we interpret history and Islam.

It just so happens that its like when an unqualified person tries to do something complicated - the result is just weird!

I am happy for Wahabi's to continue interpreting Islam as they please - however please DON'T FORCE your ways on other people.

pak4life
26th September 2010, 10:48
pak4life believe me you isn't going to succeed persuading these people to the truth.

i mean their should be a limit, the proofs are quiet clear for them to see yet, they still come up with these phrases of shirk, bidah, hindu traditions etc....

It is not about what is the truth only Allah knows the truth some actions can be neither farz nor waajib but highly recommended mustahab but should be never called shirk or bidah.

Xohaib
26th September 2010, 10:51
Momo, just look here and you would find why brother Khan is correct when he stresses we have to look into the opinions of Scholars first before ourselves starting interpreting Quran and Sunnah (while we are most of the part Jahils and don't know the other parts of Quran and Sunnah).

Allah Himself says in Surah Fatir:

فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلًا وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّهِ تَحْوِيلًا

ترجمہ:

سو آپ اﷲ کی سنت میں ہرگز کوئی تبدیلی نہیں پائیں گے، اور نہ ہی اﷲ کی سنت میں ہرگز کوئی پھرنا پائیں گے

ٰIt proves that Sunnah word is not only related to Prophet pbuh, but it is used in sense of Practice in Quran for Allah.

And it is very strange when Xohaib claims that we don't do things while Allah does.

Allah does Justice and we are also asked to do the justice. And regarding reciting Darood, the verse was very very clear where Allah is saying he sends Darood upon Prophet pbuh, and then in next part of Ayah Allah is demanding the Momineen to do the same.

Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
Al-Qur'an Surah 33, Ayah 56

Are you still unable to see these 2 parts of Ayah?



It is strange you are still coming up with such type of excuses even after we have presented you the clear Ayah of Quran where Allah Himself saying He and Angles sends Darood upon Prophet pbuh, and then Allah is asking the Momineen to do the same.



You don't considering the rule of Mubah Ibadaat in Islam, which says every Nafl Ibadaat is allowed till the time is doesn't contradict any Established rule of Sharia. And rule of Sharia is to do the Sai (7 times). You are allowed to do as many Umras and as many Sais as you like.

About the Mubah Ibadaat, I posted many clear Ahadith of Prophet pbuh before, but you are not ready to ponder upon them.



Xohaib, you are very hard upon me and on the topic. I constantly asked you to forget what brailvi do or the other people do. How would you feel if some one says that you people never recite Darood while you have to show you are Wahabies? Does it hurt you?

Again and again we are attacked we are following Hindu customs, while sending Darood upon Prophet pbuh is not what Barailvies do, but it is centuries old tradition now and is practices all over the Sunni Arab world.

Xohaib, I asked you to prove us that Prophet pbuh has made it Haram to send Darood upon him loudly. If you have no proofs, then you could not simply declare it Haram by attacking the Barailvi crap.

And here is one Tradition which shows doing NEW Mubah Zikr loudly is fully allowed in Islam:


Bukhari and Muslim relate that Rifa'a ibn Rafi said, "When we were praying behind the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and he raised his head from bowing and said, "Allah hears whoever praises Him", a man behind him said (loudly), "Our Lord, Yours is the praise, abundantly, wholesomely, and blessedly therein." When he rose to leave, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) asked, "who said it", and when the man replied that it was he, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, "I saw thirty-odd angels each striving to be the one to write it." Ibn Hajar says in Fath al-Bari that the hadith indicates the permissibility of initiating new expressions of dhikr in the prayer other than the ones related through hadith texts, as long as they do not contradict those conveyed by the hadith [since the above words were a mere enhancement and addendum to the known, Sunna dhikr].

And here once again saying the Zikr in loud voice is not Haram.


Fadalah bin ‘Ubayd reported: Allah’s Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was sitting amongst us, there entered a person and he prayed as saying (loudly), "O Allah! Forgive me, have mercy upon me." Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said, "O worshipper! You have made haste in praying. When you pray and sit (at the end) laud Allah of what He is worthy of and send blessings upon me and then supplicate Him." The narrator said: Then another man prayed after him and he lauded Allah and invoked blessings of Allah upon the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to him, "O worshipper! Make a supplication and it would be responded."

Reference

►Tirmidhi related in al-Jai‘-us-saheeh, b. of da‘awat (supplications) ch.65 (5: 516 # 3476) and graded it hasan (fair)

If ALLAH says do justice than do it,Allah says recite , duroof do it,I was just talking about you saying ALLAH sunnah,If it is the case why dont you do everything which ALLAH does?
We are asked to do justice so we do it,Not because ALLAH does it.
I havent said dont send durood.have I?

Free Hit
26th September 2010, 11:04
Firstly there is nothing as Allahs Sunnah,you dont do things because ALAAH does them
Once I asked My teacher why do you light up roads and waste money,he said because ALLAH lightened up the sky when MUHAMMAD PBUH was born,even if sky was lightened it doesnt mean we should also do it,ALLAH kills his people,It doesnt mean we should also kill people.
So with you argument we should go round kaaba 50 times.why not'7 times gives us so much sawab than why not 50 times.
recite durood whenever you want where ever,but why on mike every time,it is like you are showing off that you are bralevi and you cannot do azan with out.
And If I dont recite it I am not bralevi.

so your argument is on whether we should recite it on mike or not? really your this post is childish and emotional.

Energy
26th September 2010, 14:11
The third day, seventh day, forty day [chaliswa] and annual [bursi] remembrance are all esaale sawaab. On the third day after the prescribed period of mourning, flow of sympathizers and recitations a dua is read for the acceptance of our recitations within this three day period and to present the rewards to the deceased.

The seventh day proof is found recorded in Imam Jalalluddin Suyuti's (may Allah be well pleased with him) Sharrus Sudoor that the companions [sahaaba] used to give gifts [sadaqa] to serve as esaale sawaab for seven days after the funeral.

On the seventh day, the dua for acceptance is read.

The fortieth day! Let me explain the significance of forty. Hazrath Musa (may Allah bless him with peace) waited at Mount Tur [Sinai] for the revelation of the Torah for forty days and nights. Adam's (may Allah bless him with peace) constitution was fashioned in forty days. Most Prophets proclaimed prophethood at the age of forty. A foetus within the womb develops in periods of forty days. A mother that gives birth waits for forty days for her body to readapt to a non-pregnancy mode. Maturity is said to set in at the age of forty. If somebody reads salaah for forty days with congregation he becomes a consistent worshipper. To read forty salaah, is the Sunnah in Masjidun Nabawi. The Sufis practice retreat of forty days and some of forty years.

So forty has significance in Islamic practices. According to the hadith in Baihaqi, the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) said that when the dead is buried, for forty days the deceaseds attention is towards his or her home. The soul comes to the houses and goes. After forty days the attention is diverted from the home to the prevalent situation so we read and present a parting gift to the soul.

However this reading on the third day, seventh day and forty day [chaliswa] is neither farz nor waajib but highly recommended [mustahab]. If we do it is beneficial and if we don't there is no sin. However those that declare these practices as innovation [bidah] should refrain from branding those that do perform it!! Allah knows best

With due respect, can you provide any verse from the Holy Quran or a Sahih Hadith regarding the practice of mourning specifically on the days you mentioned? Because as far as I have read, I have never come across anything that says to hold a gathering on the 40th day etc.

I was in Pakistan last winter and went to my cousin's place in Lahore where the society was lit up nicely and there were tents in place etc. I asked my cousin what is it, to which he replied "yaar yaha se haleem buhat achi mile gi aaj" I thought it was a wedding party or something, to which I later came to know that it was a religious gathering for a deceased.

There is nothing wrong with sincerely praying for the deceased but I do not understand the meaning of having a gathering in order to pray (where you are never sure what the intentions of people are in attending it). No disrespect to anyone, but would highly appreciate if you can quote a verse from the Quran or Sunnah to clear my doubts. Thanks!

khan-92
26th September 2010, 14:23
What if 2 scholars give you differing opinions on a subject, how would you know which one is "within sharia"?

As a layman if a find a scholar that is sound in aqeedah and qualifications and has good character then I trust that the answers he gives will be according to Sharia and not he's personal opinion.

If I am student of knowledge then I can ask for the proofs and can decide if this according to sharia or not otherwise as a layman to follow a scholar opinion is valid and is encouraged in Islam because not everyone has grasp of Islamic Knowledge.

MR__KHAN__JI
26th September 2010, 15:10
With due respect, can you provide any verse from the Holy Quran or a Sahih Hadith regarding the practice of mourning specifically on the days you mentioned? Because as far as I have read, I have never come across anything that says to hold a gathering on the 40th day etc.

I was in Pakistan last winter and went to my cousin's place in Lahore where the society was lit up nicely and there were tents in place etc. I asked my cousin what is it, to which he replied "yaar yaha se haleem buhat achi mile gi aaj" I thought it was a wedding party or something, to which I later came to know that it was a religious gathering for a deceased.

There is nothing wrong with sincerely praying for the deceased but I do not understand the meaning of having a gathering in order to pray (where you are never sure what the intentions of people are in attending it). No disrespect to anyone, but would highly appreciate if you can quote a verse from the Quran or Sunnah to clear my doubts. Thanks!

Can you name one that says you cant? - preferably from the Quran.

Energy
26th September 2010, 15:29
Can you name one that says you cant? - preferably from the Quran.

There are various Ayats in the Quran that tell us to pray for the deceased such as:


And those who came after them say: ‘Our Lord! Forgive us and our brethren who have preceded us in Faith’”
[al-Hashr:10]

If the deceased were your parent(s), then:


..and say: ‘My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was young’
[al-Isra’:24]

And to be more precise, Allah says in the Quran that:


O ye who believe! Obey Allah and his Apostle and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak). [al-Anfal:20]

Now, the life of the Prophet (PBUH) is indeed the best example for us to follow. During the time of the Prophet (PBUH) many of his family members, his wives, daughters, uncles and his illustrious companions left the world whilst engaged in the most noble work and effort of uplifting the religion of Islam. Despite the Prophet's deep love for them, he did not (on any single occasion) commemorate the innovative custom of 7 days, 40 days, 100 days, etc since I cannot find any Hadith in which it is mentioned to mourn on specific days.

I might be wrong (or have missed out something), that is why I hope you can clear this doubt of mine. Thanks!

MR__KHAN__JI
26th September 2010, 15:32
There are various Ayats in the Quran that tell us to pray for the deceased such as:



If the deceased were your parent(s), then:



And to be more precise, Allah says in the Quran that:



Now, the life of the Prophet (PBUH) is indeed the best example for us to follow. During the time of the Prophet (PBUH) many of his family members, his wives, daughters, uncles and his illustrious companions left the world whilst engaged in the most noble work and effort of uplifting the religion of Islam. Despite the Prophet's deep love for them, he did not (on any single occasion) commemorate the innovative custom of 7 days, 40 days, 100 days, etc since I cannot find any Hadith in which it is mentioned to mourn on specific days.

I might be wrong (or have missed out something), that is why I hope you can clear this doubt of mine. Thanks!

My apologies, but you didnt answer my question.

Alam_dar
26th September 2010, 15:42
With due respect, can you provide any verse from the Holy Quran or a Sahih Hadith regarding the practice of mourning specifically on the days you mentioned? Because as far as I have read, I have never come across anything that says to hold a gathering on the 40th day etc.

I was in Pakistan last winter and went to my cousin's place in Lahore where the society was lit up nicely and there were tents in place etc. I asked my cousin what is it, to which he replied "yaar yaha se haleem buhat achi mile gi aaj" I thought it was a wedding party or something, to which I later came to know that it was a religious gathering for a deceased.

There is nothing wrong with sincerely praying for the deceased but I do not understand the meaning of having a gathering in order to pray (where you are never sure what the intentions of people are in attending it). No disrespect to anyone, but would highly appreciate if you can quote a verse from the Quran or Sunnah to clear my doubts. Thanks!


Can you name one that says you cant? - preferably from the Quran.

Hassam brother, the things are like this:

People of Indian Sub Continent has forgotten what happens on the 40th day. They see only Food, but unable to see that main thing is the Recitation of Quran for the Deceased on this 40th day and this food comes afterwards.

I do agree with you it seems little odd today. But I assure you no where is it HARAM in Islamic Sharia to not to do Quran Khawani for the deceased on 40th day, or any other day, and to distribute the food after that. I have already posted the Hadith of Prophet pbuh, which is found multiple times in Hadith books that after Reciting Surah Fatiha for the ill person, the Sahaba (companions) of Prophet pbuh asked for the good food and also money for doing Ruqya (reciting Fatiha upon the ill person). And when Prophet pbuh came to know about it, he told them it is totally ok to demand money and food for the services they provided to that ill person.

Problem is it seems perhaps little odd, but on other hand if any one declare it Haram today, then it is equal to making another Sharia. No one is allowed to make Halal of Allah Haram at his own.

I once again ask you to read the whole thread. I have given a lot of Ahadith there about the MUBAH Acts which could be done at any time.

Here is one hadith once again, where Sahaba are doing the ZIKR gathering at their own, at their own chosen time. And when Prophet pbuh came to know about this NEW Act of Worship, he didn't get angry and blamed them for Misguided Bidah. No, he assured them that they have done a praiseworthy act and Allah is proud of them.

Here is the Hadith where Sahaba are sitting in circles at their own (without any prior orders of Prophet pbuh) and doing Zikr of Allah at their own:


Sahih Muslim, Book 035, Number 6521:

Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Mu'awiya went to a circle in the mosque and said: What makes you sit here? They said: We are sitting here in order to re- member Allah. He said: I adjure you by Allah (to tell me whether you are sitting here for this very purpose)? They said: By Allah, we are sitting here for this very purpose. Thereupon, he said: I have not demanded you to take an oath, because of any allegation against you and none of my rank in the eye of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is the narrator of so few ahadith as I am. The fact is that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) went out to the circle of his Companions and said: What makes you sit? They said: We are sitting here in order to remember Allah and to praise Him for He guided us to the path of Islam and He conferred favours upgn us. Thereupon he adjured by Allah and asked if that only was the purpose of their sitting there. They said: By Allah, we are not sitting here but for this very purpose, whereupon he (the Messenger) said: I am not asking you to take an oath because of any allegation against you but for the fact that Gabriel came to me and he informed me that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, was talking to the angels about your magnificence.


The other side has constantly tried to RUN Away from confronting this Hadith. Either it is in name of "Copy Paste" or whatever. Rule is very simple, if they are true then they have to prove why this NEW Act of Worship didn't become Misguided Bidah, but when we do the gathering for ZIKR of Allah and His Prophet pbuh on Eid Miladun Nabi, then it becomes misguided Bidah while it is a new act for them.

Allah himself said in Quran that Zikr is not only for Allah, but HE (Allah) has also exalted the Zikr of Prophet pbuh when Allah said for Prophet (pbuh) و رفعنا لک ذکرک

Today these people want to end this Zikr of Prophet pbuh in name of Bidah. Again they are unable to see the Zikr of Prophet pbuh on Eid Miladun Nabi and see only the lighting. I assure you, even if there is NOT a single light, even then they will not do the gathering for Zikr of Prophet pbuh and keep on saying it misguided Bidah while for them there is NO Mubah Ibadat and all falls under New Acts of Bidah.

pak4life
26th September 2010, 15:55
With due respect, can you provide any verse from the Holy Quran or a Sahih Hadith regarding the practice of mourning specifically on the days you mentioned? Because as far as I have read, I have never come across anything that says to hold a gathering on the 40th day etc.

I was in Pakistan last winter and went to my cousin's place in Lahore where the society was lit up nicely and there were tents in place etc. I asked my cousin what is it, to which he replied "yaar yaha se haleem buhat achi mile gi aaj" I thought it was a wedding party or something, to which I later came to know that it was a religious gathering for a deceased.

There is nothing wrong with sincerely praying for the deceased but I do not understand the meaning of having a gathering in order to pray (where you are never sure what the intentions of people are in attending it). No disrespect to anyone, but would highly appreciate if you can quote a verse from the Quran or Sunnah to clear my doubts. Thanks!

I suggest you read what I wrote again and hopefully you wil get your answer I did say it was neither farz or wajib.

Hazrath Bilaal (may Allah be well pleased with him) used consistently practice the performance of the two cycles of prayer after wudhu called Tahayyatul wudhu which is a highly recommended [mustahab] action. On account of this the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) had heard the footsteps of Hazrath Bilaal ahead of him in paradise. In Mishkaat there is a hadith in which the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) says,

The most loved act by Allah is that which is performed consistently.

If this practise is not something you accept there is no obligation for you to perform but please do not insult the people who do.

khan-92
26th September 2010, 16:44
Also we have to agree that some people who practice these 40 days khatam and Milaad look down up and consider those who do not do them as a wahabi.

Energy
26th September 2010, 17:02
Hassam brother, the things are like this:

People of Indian Sub Continent has forgotten what happens on the 40th day. They see only Food, but unable to see that main thing is the Recitation of Quran for the Deceased on this 40th day and this food comes afterwards.

I do agree with you it seems little odd today. But I assure you no where is it HARAM in Islamic Sharia to not to do Quran Khawani for the deceased on 40th day, or any other day, and to distribute the food after that. I have already posted the Hadith of Prophet pbuh, which is found multiple times in Hadith books that after Reciting Surah Fatiha for the ill person, the Sahaba (companions) of Prophet pbuh asked for the good food and also money for doing Ruqya (reciting Fatiha upon the ill person). And when Prophet pbuh came to know about it, he told them it is totally ok to demand money and food for the services they provided to that ill person.

Problem is it seems perhaps little odd, but on other hand if any one declare it Haram today, then it is equal to making another Sharia. No one is allowed to make Halal of Allah Haram at his own.

I once again ask you to read the whole thread. I have given a lot of Ahadith there about the MUBAH Acts which could be done at any time.

Here is one hadith once again, where Sahaba are doing the ZIKR gathering at their own, at their own chosen time. And when Prophet pbuh came to know about this NEW Act of Worship, he didn't get angry and blamed them for Misguided Bidah. No, he assured them that they have done a praiseworthy act and Allah is proud of them.

Here is the Hadith where Sahaba are sitting in circles at their own (without any prior orders of Prophet pbuh) and doing Zikr of Allah at their own:


Sahih Muslim, Book 035, Number 6521:

Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Mu'awiya went to a circle in the mosque and said: What makes you sit here? They said: We are sitting here in order to re- member Allah. He said: I adjure you by Allah (to tell me whether you are sitting here for this very purpose)? They said: By Allah, we are sitting here for this very purpose. Thereupon, he said: I have not demanded you to take an oath, because of any allegation against you and none of my rank in the eye of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is the narrator of so few ahadith as I am. The fact is that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) went out to the circle of his Companions and said: What makes you sit? They said: We are sitting here in order to remember Allah and to praise Him for He guided us to the path of Islam and He conferred favours upgn us. Thereupon he adjured by Allah and asked if that only was the purpose of their sitting there. They said: By Allah, we are not sitting here but for this very purpose, whereupon he (the Messenger) said: I am not asking you to take an oath because of any allegation against you but for the fact that Gabriel came to me and he informed me that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, was talking to the angels about your magnificence.


The other side has constantly tried to RUN Away from confronting this Hadith. Either it is in name of "Copy Paste" or whatever. Rule is very simple, if they are true then they have to prove why this NEW Act of Worship didn't become Misguided Bidah, but when we do the gathering for ZIKR of Allah and His Prophet pbuh on Eid Miladun Nabi, then it becomes misguided Bidah while it is a new act for them.

Allah himself said in Quran that Zikr is not only for Allah, but HE (Allah) has also exalted the Zikr of Prophet pbuh when Allah said for Prophet (pbuh) و رفعنا لک ذکرک

Today these people want to end this Zikr of Prophet pbuh in name of Bidah. Again they are unable to see the Zikr of Prophet pbuh on Eid Miladun Nabi and see only the lighting. I assure you, even if there is NOT a single light, even then they will not do the gathering for Zikr of Prophet pbuh and keep on saying it misguided Bidah while for them there is NO Mubah Ibadat and all falls under New Acts of Bidah.


I suggest you read what I wrote again and hopefully you wil get your answer I did say it was neither farz or wajib.

Hazrath Bilaal (may Allah be well pleased with him) used consistently practice the performance of the two cycles of prayer after wudhu called Tahayyatul wudhu which is a highly recommended [mustahab] action. On account of this the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) had heard the footsteps of Hazrath Bilaal ahead of him in paradise. In Mishkaat there is a hadith in which the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) says,

The most loved act by Allah is that which is performed consistently.

If this practise is not something you accept there is no obligation for you to perform but please do not insult the people who do.

There is no need to get emotional Pak4life. This practice happens in my own family and I have failed to understand why and whenever I question, the answer is more or less similar to yours i.e. going around the question but failing to answer the question.

Brothers, it is common sense that praying and making Dua'a to Allah along with reciting Durood at anytime can never be a false act. I think you have misunderstood me; I am not asking why do you pray for the deceased, rather I am asking why is it done on specific days from the time of death? In other words, from where did this practice originate and who were the first people who practiced this?

Again, no offence to any practice and with due respect, I hope I have made the question clear enough.

RehanG
26th September 2010, 17:09
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

agree;)

these khatam's are own made by these mullAh's

MR__KHAN__JI
26th September 2010, 17:17
RehanG.

Hassam's post #178 disagrees with you.

Can you name me one passage (prefereably from the Quran) that says you cannot read from the Quran on the 5th 6th 7th 10th 20th or 40th days?

Xohaib
26th September 2010, 17:50
so your argument is on whether we should recite it on mike or not? really your this post is childish and emotional.

who says it is not allowed but it is not farz,No problem in doing it or not.

Energy
26th September 2010, 17:51
RehanG.

Hassam's post #178 disagrees with you.

Can you name me one passage (prefereably from the Quran) that says you cannot read from the Quran on the 5th 6th 7th 10th 20th or 40th days?

Brother, please do not create hatred between two people. If you use your brains you can see in post 178 that I stated that there is no basis for khatams etc from the practice of the Prophet (PBUH). Hence, I agree with RehanG!

I know you are trying your best to divert from my main question, let me again bring to your notice that Quran can be read any time of any day. Which means that there can be Quran khani everyday from the time of death of the deceased. So why is it not everyday and only on the 7th, 40th, 365th etc.

As you stated, there is no Ayat that tells us to recite Quran on a particular day, which means Quran can be recited at any time of the day, more importantly everyday. Since there is no particular Ayat regarding khatam after the deceased, so why is not everyday? Why is not done on the 50th day? Or the 75th day? Or the 100th day?

Do not get emotional, since you will only make the argument difficult for yourself. With respect, I am not against any practice or customs, but it would be appreciated if those practicing it can let me know as to why is it done. Thanks.

Alam_dar
26th September 2010, 17:52
There is no need to get emotional Pak4life. This practice happens in my own family and I have failed to understand why and whenever I question, the answer is more or less similar to yours i.e. going around the question but failing to answer the question.

Brothers, it is common sense that praying and making Dua'a to Allah along with reciting Durood at anytime can never be a false act. I think you have misunderstood me; I am not asking why do you pray for the deceased, rather I am asking why is it done on specific days from the time of death? In other words, from where did this practice originate and who were the first people who practiced this?

Again, no offence to any practice and with due respect, I hope I have made the question clear enough.

Dear, there is nothing in the Dates, but it is to remember the deceased and praying for him and reciting Quran for him and feeding the poor for him, and all these things could be done on any day and Shariah allows it completely to do any Mubah Action for benefiting the deceased on any day.

Now the society has made it a Custom to do it on specific days, but none of them have said that it is obligatory in Sharia to do it, or to do it on specific day. All what has been done by the society is completely allowed Mubah Actions according to Islamic Sharia.

Therefore, if you don't want to do it, it is totally fine. Or you want to do it on another day, again it is completely fine and all these are Mubah Actions and not obligatory actions. Sharia has left it upon us to do these good Mubah Actions on any day at any time.

The problem arises when one party goes to extreme and if some one is not doing it then say you are Wahabi, and on other extreme there is a party who start making the Halal Mubah Practices of Sharia Haram at their own and thus making their own Sharia.

Energy
26th September 2010, 17:56
Dear, there is nothing in the Dates, but it is to remember the deceased and praying for him and reciting Quran for him and feeding the poor for him, and all these things could be done on any day and Shariah allows it completely to do any Mubah Action for benefiting the deceased on any day.

Now the society has made it a Custom to do it on specific days, but none of them have said that it is obligatory in Sharia to do it, or to do it on specific day. All what has been done by the society is completely allowed Mubah Actions according to Islamic Sharia.

Therefore, if you don't want to do it, it is totally fine. Or you want to do it on another day, again it is completely fine and all these are Mubah Actions and not obligatory actions. Sharia has left it upon us to do these good Mubah Actions on any day at any time.

The problem arises when one party goes to extreme and if some one is not doing it then say you are Wahabi, and on other extreme there is a party who start making the Halal Mubah Practices of Sharia Haram at their own and thus making their own Sharia.

Thankyou for your reply brother. I understand your point of praying for the deceased and participating in the gatherings with the intention of the respective. However, the debate of the dates might continue for life, so it is best to try and understand each other and live with it without trying to get into the extremes.

Allah is our creator and he knows what is inside the hearts of the people. So as long as the intention is clean, Inshallah the person will succeed in life.

MR__KHAN__JI
26th September 2010, 17:59
Brother, please do not create hatred between two people. If you use your brains you can see in post 178 that I stated that there is no basis for khatams etc from the practice of the Prophet (PBUH). Hence, I agree with RehanG!

I know you are trying your best to divert from my main question, let me again bring to your notice that Quran can be read any time of any day. Which means that there can be Quran khani everyday from the time of death of the deceased. So why is it not everyday and only on the 7th, 40th, 365th etc.

As you stated, there is no Ayat that tells us to recite Quran on a particular day, which means Quran can be recited at any time of the day, more importantly everyday. Since there is no particular Ayat regarding khatam after the deceased, so why is not everyday? Why is not done on the 50th day? Or the 75th day? Or the 100th day?

Do not get emotional, since you will only make the argument difficult for yourself. With respect, I am not against any practice or customs, but it would be appreciated if those practicing it can let me know as to why is it done. Thanks.

I genuinely do not wish to create hatred - quite the opposite actually. :39:

Your post stated that it was ok to give blessings to people that had been deceased in certain instances.

It sounds like we are agreed that you can read the Quran whenever you want.

If you choose to do it on the 40th - whats wrong with that? - where does it say you CANNOT do it on the 40th?

Energy
26th September 2010, 18:06
I genuinely do not wish to create hatred - quite the opposite actually. :39:

Your post stated that it was ok to give blessings to people that had been deceased in certain instances.

It sounds like we are agreed that you can read the Quran whenever you want.

If you choose to do it on the 40th - whats wrong with that? - where does it say you CANNOT do it on the 40th?

Like I said to Alam-Dar, end of the day it depends on the person's niyat behind any gathering or participation. The debate will go on and on and might reach to no conclusion. Allah will judge everyone with justice in the end and that is the reality.

There is no point going into the extremes and its better to understand each other's perspective behind every statement.

Ma'salaam!

6xafridi
26th September 2010, 18:12
Like I said to Alam-Dar, end of the day it depends on the person's niyat behind any gathering or participation. The debate will go on and on and might reach to no conclusion. Allah will judge everyone with justice in the end and that is the reality.

There is no point going into the extremes and its better to understand each other's perspective behind every statement.

Ma'salaam!
You're right, but sometimes intentions do NOT cut it. There is a tareeqa to do everything, and if a person makes his own way to do things in our COMPLETED Deen regardless of his intentions, it is still a sin. Islam is very simple, just follow the Prophet and his companions and that's all you need to do to be a good Muslim. No need for celebrating the Prophet's birthday, asking for help from the dead (sifarish), having a khatam after 40 days, having a Qur'aan khaani for an occassion etc etc.

Energy
26th September 2010, 18:20
You're right, but sometimes intentions do NOT cut it. There is a tareeqa to do everything, and if a person makes his own way to do things in our COMPLETED Deen regardless of his intentions, it is still a sin. Islam is very simple, just follow the Prophet and his companions and that's all you need to do to be a good Muslim. No need for celebrating the Prophet's birthday, asking for help from the dead (sifarish), having a khatam after 40 days, having a Qur'aan khaani for an occassion etc etc.

I know what you are feeling brother and we both have agreed on many previous topics as well, but this argument needs to end somewhere.

I personally do not practice any of such customs, but I do not want to hurt the people who practice it (since some of them might be doing with very clean intentions). The best what everyone can do is discuss and try to come to a conclusion, but that looks unlikely here.

I hope Allah guides everyone to the straight path and gives everyone taufeeq to adhere to the Quran and the Sunnah.

MR__KHAN__JI
26th September 2010, 18:36
Like I said to Alam-Dar, end of the day it depends on the person's niyat behind any gathering or participation. The debate will go on and on and might reach to no conclusion. Allah will judge everyone with justice in the end and that is the reality.

There is no point going into the extremes and its better to understand each other's perspective behind every statement.

Ma'salaam!

I agree - it comes down to niyat.

Ma salam.

MR__KHAN__JI
26th September 2010, 18:46
You're right, but sometimes intentions do NOT cut it. There is a tareeqa to do everything, and if a person makes his own way to do things in our COMPLETED Deen regardless of his intentions, it is still a sin. Islam is very simple, just follow the Prophet and his companions and that's all you need to do to be a good Muslim. No need for celebrating the Prophet's birthday, asking for help from the dead (sifarish), having a khatam after 40 days, having a Qur'aan khaani for an occassion etc etc.


Islam is simpler - Follow the Quran and his messenger. You are make it complicated with rules that dont exist.

You should be free to do anything that increases you worship of ALLAH. (Unless it is specifically banned!)

If I want to pray 100 Raka's one day - I should be free to.

If I want to remember the Prophet on his birthday, the day after his birthday, or the day after that, I should be free to.

If I want to celebrate the blessing of the messenger that ALLAH has bestowed to us today, tomorrow, everyday - I should be free to.

I just need to ensure that I complete what is Fard upon me first!!!!!!!!

khan-92
26th September 2010, 22:01
This practice of khatams after certain number of days is custom and is not part of Islam.
if you want to do esaale sawab then you can do that everyday you do not need to wait for 40 days to do it.
And people think if they do not do it they are sinners and thier family members will think ill of them why they did not do khatam.
For me personally I think it is best that the money we spend on food should be given to poor or sponsor few students in madrassah to become hafiz that will benefit the dead more then having this custom.

ShaazE
27th September 2010, 00:48
One can only imagine what the Brelvi "Mullah' waiting for his halwa might be going through as this debate goes on and on.

6xafridi
27th September 2010, 02:59
Islam is simpler - Follow the Quran and his messenger. You are make it complicated with rules that dont exist.

You should be free to do anything that increases you worship of ALLAH. (Unless it is specifically banned!)

If I want to pray 100 Raka's one day - I should be free to.

If I want to remember the Prophet on his birthday, the day after his birthday, or the day after that, I should be free to.

If I want to celebrate the blessing of the messenger that ALLAH has bestowed to us today, tomorrow, everyday - I should be free to.

I just need to ensure that I complete what is Fard upon me first!!!!!!!!
Alright buddy, you are free to do all that but do not make it into a custom. Why single out the birthday of the Prophet PBUH to remember him?

MR__KHAN__JI
27th September 2010, 04:58
Alright buddy, you are free to do all that but do not make it into a custom. Why single out the birthday of the Prophet PBUH to remember him?

Why not?

Alam_dar
27th September 2010, 06:29
You're right, but sometimes intentions do NOT cut it. There is a tareeqa to do everything, and if a person makes his own way to do things in our COMPLETED Deen regardless of his intentions, it is still a sin. Islam is very simple, just follow the Prophet and his companions and that's all you need to do to be a good Muslim. No need for celebrating the Prophet's birthday, asking for help from the dead (sifarish), having a khatam after 40 days, having a Qur'aan khaani for an occassion etc etc.

Afridi dear, what do you mean here by following Prophet pbuh and companions?
You must understand first what SHARIA is. Making Sharia is only and only the RIGHT of Allah and even Prophet pbuh is not allowed to add any thing in Sharia at his own.
Don't you remember the Incident of Tehrim when Prophet made Honey HARAM upon him. Upon that Allah became enraged and told the Prophet pbuh who is he (saw) to make that things HARAM which have been made HALAL by Allah?
We follow basically only and only Allah. And Sunnah of Prophet pbuh is added while it is also directly from Allah and Prophet pbuh says nothing at his own except what has been revealed to him.
While Rashid Caliphs and Sahaba are only the safe-guardians of SHARIA and no Angels descend upon them with revelations from Allah.

Still it is very strange that people allow companions the NEW Mubah Acts of Worship (although No Angel descended upon them), but in our case they start saying Bidah Bidah.

The Deen was completed before Prophet pbuh died.

Prophet prayed Tarawih Namaz only and only 3 nights (alternative nights?) at maximum. He didn't order to pray 30 complete nights of Ramadhan Tarawih after him. He didn't order to complete whole Quran while offering Tarawih Prayers after his death.

All these NEW Acts of Tarawih have been introduced by Companions themselves and HAVE BEEN TAKEN AS CUSTOM by whole Muslim Ummah. . Why? While in Islam it is totally allowed to do the New MUBAH Acts of worship at any time, take them as CUSTOM, do them at every day, or make custom to do them at specific days..... It is a HALAL of Allah and His Shariah.

It is the biggest mistake by those People who today making these HALAL and MUBAH Acts of Worship in Islamic Shariah Haram at their own. They have not Proof for it. They are themselves indulged in misguided Bidah if they declare that doing Mubah Acts of Ibadaat is Haram in Islamic Sharia.

Same is the case with this Hadith where Companions are gathering in circles and then doing Zikr of Allah at their own without any prior orders of Prophet pbuh.



Sahih Muslim, Book 035, Number 6521:

Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Mu'awiya went to a circle in the mosque and said: What makes you sit here? They said: We are sitting here in order to re- member Allah. He said: I adjure you by Allah (to tell me whether you are sitting here for this very purpose)? They said: By Allah, we are sitting here for this very purpose. Thereupon, he said: I have not demanded you to take an oath, because of any allegation against you and none of my rank in the eye of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) is the narrator of so few ahadith as I am. The fact is that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) went out to the circle of his Companions and said: What makes you sit? They said: We are sitting here in order to remember Allah and to praise Him for He guided us to the path of Islam and He conferred favours upgn us. Thereupon he adjured by Allah and asked if that only was the purpose of their sitting there. They said: By Allah, we are not sitting here but for this very purpose, whereupon he (the Messenger) said: I am not asking you to take an oath because of any allegation against you but for the fact that Gabriel came to me and he informed me that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, was talking to the angels about your magnificence.

There are many many Authentic Ahadith which show that doing such NEW Mubah Acts of Ibadaat are fully allowed in Islam. In my previous posts, I mentioned some of these Ahadith, but this part of Shariah has been totally neglected by our brothers and it is a sad thing.
Let me quote few more Ahadith for those who really want to learn the lesson and don't start neglecting Ahadith while it does not suit to their Aqaeed.


Narrated IsraiI:
Uthman bin 'Abdullah bin Mauhab said, "My people sent me with a bowl of water to Um Salama." Isra'il approximated three fingers ('indicating the small size of the container in which there was some hair of the Prophet. 'Uthman added, "If any person suffered from evil eye or some other disease, he would send a vessel (containing water) to Um Salama. I looked into the container (that held the hair of the Prophet) and saw a few red hairs in it,"
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 784

Prophet pbuh never asked the people to drink from cup containing his hairs against diseases and evil eye in his [saw] life time. It was only Ummul Momineen Umm Salama who introduced this new Action according to her own opinion while she know that there is Barakah in the hairs of Prophet pbuh.

Did Umm Salama really innovate, when she did it? If yes, then where is the Salafi Fatwa (from 1st century to this 14th century) on her misguidance (naudobillah)?


Narrated by Ibn Hajar in al-Isaba fi tamyiz al-sahaba (Calcutta, 1853) 1:72 under "Anas Ibn Malik."

Ibn al-Sakan narrated through Safwan ibn Hubayra from the latter's father: Thabit al-Bunani said: Anas ibn Malik said to me (on his death-bed): "This is one of the hairs of Allah's Messenger, Allah's blessings and peace upon him. I want you to place it under my tongue. "Thabit continued: I placed it under his tongue, and he was buried with it under his tongue."

Prophet pbuh never asked anyone to put his hair under his tongue while getting buried. Ans bin Malik introduced this new Action according to his own opinion, while he knew that there is a Barakah in the hairs of Prophet pbuh and it could benefit him in his grave. (The rejecters of Isaal-e-Sawab must look at this tradition and should learn a lesson).


Narrated Thumama:
Anas said, "Um Sulaim used to spread a leather sheet for the Prophet and he used to take a midday nap on that leather sheet at her home." Anas added, "When the Prophet had slept, she would take some of his sweat and hair and collect it (the sweat) in a bottle and then mix it with Suk (a kind of perfume) while he was still sleeping. "When the death of Anas bin Malik approached, he advised that some of that Suk be mixed with his Hanut (perfume for embalming the dead body), and it was mixed with his Hanut.
Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 74, Number 298

Prophet pbuh never asked someone to collect his sweat and Umm Sulaim did it according to her own opinion. Similarly, Prophet pbuh never asked his sweat and hair mixed with Suk to be used on a dead body as Hanut. It was Anas bin Malik himself who did this NEW Act according to his own opinion, while they knew that there is Barakah in sweat and hairs of Prophet pbuh. And it was not prohibited by the Sharia to Hanut a dead body with Suk of Prophet pbuh in order to seek barakah.
Once again, those who deny Isaal-e-Sawab to the deceased, they should learn lesson from this tradition.


Abdullah. the freed slave of Asma' (the daughter of Abu Bakr). the maternal uncle of the son of 'Ata, reported:

Asma' sent me to 'Abdullah b. 'Umar saying: The news has reached me that you prohibit the use of three things: the striped robe. saddle cloth made of red silk. and the fasting in the holy month of Rajab. 'Abdullah said to me: So far as what you say about fasting in the month of Rajab, how about one who observes continuous fasting? -and so far as what you say about the striped garment, I heard Umar b. Khatab say that he had heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him): He who wears silk garment has no share for him (in the Hereafter), and I am afraid it may not be that striped garment; and so far as the red saddle cloth is concerned that is the saddle cloth of Abdullah and it is red. I went back to Asma' and informed her. whereupon she said: Here is the cloak of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). and she brought out to me that cloak made of Persian cloth with a hem of brocade, and its sleeves bordered with brocade and said: This was Allah's Messenger's cloak with 'A'isha until she died, and when she died. I got possession of it. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) used to wear that, and we washed it for the sick and sought cure thereby.
Sahih Muslim, Book 024, Number 5149

Prophet pbuh never asked to wash his cloak and drink that water in order to get cure. All of these Sahaba did this NEW Act only according to their own opinion while all of them knew that there was Barakah in Tabarukkat of Prophet pbuh.
Why do the Salafi not deem Umm Momineen Hazrat Aisha and her sister Isma bint Abi Bakr to be misguided innovators? (Salafies must also declare both of them Mushrik, having sought help from the cloak of Prophet pbuh against disease, instead of seeking help from Allah directly)

There is a long list of Ahadith where all these NEW Mubah Acts of Ibadaat have been done by Sahaba Karam while none of them follow that Definition of Bidah which Ahlehadith do today. Sahaba Karam had never made the Mubah acts of Worship Haram at their own like the present day Salafies do.

Torpedo
28th September 2010, 12:03
I was only after a yes/no with a few reasons listed down. But looks like the sh!t really did hit the fan.

sarmad1983
28th September 2010, 17:12
That doesn't really answer my question - respecting the opinions is fine BUT still leaves you in a situation of what to do?

A very basic example:

I want to know what to do when X occurs?

Scholar 1: you do Y

Scholar 2: you do Z

Now what?

Though note my question also stating how would you know something is "within shariah"?

i believe if that was the case, which happens often to me, i wud look at the proof provided for their opinions and then i wud follow one of them based on what proof seemed more valid to me.

Having said that, i would remember that when a scholar makes an ijtihaad on a topic he is rewarded 2 hasanaats for if he is right and he is given one hasanaat for even when he is wrong.

chacha kashmiri
28th September 2010, 17:51
One can only imagine what the Brelvi "Mullah' waiting for his halwa might be going through as this debate goes on and on.


lol

Free Hit
28th September 2010, 18:08
One can only imagine what the Brelvi "Mullah' waiting for his halwa might be going through as this debate goes on and on.

Allah ka dia khatay hain koi maang kay nahi khatay saudi's say.

Koi saleeqa hai aarzo ka
na bandagi meri bandagi haii
yeh sab tumhara karam hau Aqa
kay baat ab tak bani hui hai

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UmarAkmals-fan
28th September 2010, 18:52
These khatams have absolutely no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. The Prophet never did any such thing, neither did his companions. It's an innovation.

As for 'sawaab', the dead person's account is closed as soon as he dies (except sadqa-e-jaariya) so that is that, I am afraid.

also his PP account :(

Xohaib
28th September 2010, 19:05
Peeri mureedi has destroyed whole pakistan and India.
Being a peer is just to make money.
A Good pious man will call himself teacher and his follower student,after he is equal to our fathers and so much sawab.

Xohaib
28th September 2010, 19:06
Ok tell me the main difference between salafi and brelvi?

Free Hit
28th September 2010, 19:10
Peeri mureedi has destroyed whole pakistan and India.
Being a peer is just to make money.
A Good pious man will call himself teacher and his follower student,after he is equal to our fathers and so much sawab.

Xohaib.

i in particular to your post like this have replied before, a reply which surely should be enough for.

a peer and mureed name given to the teacher and student before use to be used to seperate the difference and respect level between the two.

yet now because of amount of fitna going around(including fake peers) has ruined this name.

it becomes really laughable now when after even agreeing with someone on the same topic, you come back to hurt someone with same comments.

Xohaib
28th September 2010, 19:31
I havent agreed with you,You havent provided anything on this peer mureedi and baet thingy.
I agree on reciting durood sharif,If niyat is for sawab and not for showing your sect.
I dont agree anything on Tombs and kissing them.
On khatam i agree half,Khatam should be called dawat.
Or only people invited should be poor ones.

Xohaib
28th September 2010, 19:33
You can go to Any pious man and call him peer and yourself muureed,but it has nothing to do with islam.