Imran Khan and Kallis comparison - Who is the better all-rounder?

[ganeshran]

Sahil had asked this is in one of the other threads but I thought it was more apt for this to have a seperate thread of his own.

Both Imran and Kallis are all rounders. Both have played very well for their respective countries.

Whom do you reckon is the better player amongst them? **edited**

[IAJ]

Kallis is a better batsman, Imran Khan a much better bowler than Kallis. But Imran Khan played with captaincy preassure as well so I would say Imran was a better allround cricketer.

[Zamee]

Kallis all the way!!

[cricketfan2010]

Sahil had asked this is in one of the other threads but I thought it was more apt for this to have a seperate thread of his own.

Both Imran and Kallis are all rounders. Both have played very well for their respective countries.

Whom do you reckon is the better all rounder amongst them?

There is no comparison. Kallis is ahead by a country mile. He may even be classed as greatest cricketer ever lived.. Even better then great Sir Gary Sobers.

Imran probably wasn't even a greatest all rounder in his own era.. he had to compete with Botham, Headley, and Kapil. Headley was a best bowler of the lot. Botham was a best batsman of the lot.

Kallis is also a fantastic slip fielder. Imran was probably one of the worst fielders even in Pakistan team full of lazy fielders. I once saw someone steal 2 runs when ball went straight to Imran. He was fieleding at mid on and ball went straight to him. He was too lazy to bend down and stop with his hand, he stopped the ball with his foot. Before he could bend over and pick up the ball Batsmen stole two runs..

Imran however may have been one of the finest captains ever regardless of his win-loss record. He was a very good captain.

[Robert]

Kallis cannot be considered a test-class all-rounder because he would not be picked in tests purely for his bowling.

Imran was test-class in both batting and bowling disciplines.

Ergo: Imran.

[Pak4Ev3r]

Imran and YES because hes pakistani and ................................ text missing

[Monsee]

Comparing a Tiger with a Hippo :-)

Seriously, the class of bowling Imran faced is way above the class of most bowlers Kallis faced...ditto the batting too because if those batsmen played today, they would probably be averaging in the 60's (people like Viv, Greg Chappel, Gavaskar, Gooch, Greenidge, Haynes, Lloyd, Turner, Ian Chappel, Border just to name a few)

Plus Imran did not have the luxury of playing against Minnows...and Imran even chose not to play a few series against weaker opposition in home conditions.

Finally, Imran lost 2 1/2 years to injury at his peak when he was taking wickets at 30+ SR and bowling averages in the teens...scoring quite a few runs along the way too!

Imran averaged 50+ in the matches he captained (40 odd I think) and that was mostly in the last/latter part of his career...so he probably could have averaged much higher today then his actual average of 37

Not putting Kallis' achievements down but this is not a fair comparison at all IMO

[Jo_Don]

Kallis cannot be considered a test-class all-rounder because he would not be picked in tests purely for his bowling.

Imran was test-class in both batting and bowling disciplines.

Ergo: Imran.

He would be picked for his bowling for India. He'd be the fastest they ever had :D

[inzy_paratha]

kallis is a great batsman, and an average bowler, to be a great allrounder your have to be a matchwinner with both ball and bat, Kallis averages in the late 30s against all the major test playing nations, his bowling average his heavily brough down because of his sub 20 averages against the minnows.
Imran khan was great with both bat and ball, a true great allrounder, and cricketfan he was definitely the best of his generation , no one who knows anything about cricket rate botham, dev, hadlee above imran.
Plus he lost 2 years at his peak due to injury, his stats probably would have been even better had he not missed those years

[hashbb]

It's not fair to compare these two
Kallis is a batting All-rounder, he is not brilliant with the ball, he just does his job, which is too keep it tight
Imran was a bowling All rounder, he is in the top 15 bowlers of all time, he was able to add handy runs in the middle order, plus he had the pressure of captaincy.

[ShehryarK]

Comparing a Tiger with a Hippo :-)

Seriously, the class of bowling Imran faced is way above the class of most bowlers Kallis faced...ditto the batting too because if those batsmen played today, they would probably be averaging in the 60's (people like Viv, Greg Chappel, Gavaskar, Gooch, Greenidge, Haynes, Lloyd, Turner, Ian Chappel, Border just to name a few)

Plus Imran did not have the luxury of playing against Minnows...and Imran even chose not to play a few series against weaker opposition in home conditions.

Finally, Imran lost 2 1/2 years to injury at his peak when he was taking wickets at 30+ SR and bowling averages in the teens...scoring quite a few runs along the way too!

Imran averaged 50+ in the matches he captained (40 odd I think) and that was mostly in the last/latter part of his career...so he probably could have averaged much higher today then his actual average of 37

Not putting Kallis' achievements down but this is not a fair comparison at all IMO

Kallis cannot be considered a test-class all-rounder because he would not be picked in tests purely for his bowling.

Imran was test-class in both batting and bowling disciplines.

Ergo: Imran.

These two posts show quite clearly how silly and idiotic this thread is. Really expected better from some of our Indian friends.

To be considered a proper Test all-rounder, the player should be good enough to play as either batsman or bowler. Kallis does not qualify. He is an all-time great batsman who can bowl a bit. Just like Wasim Akram does not qualify - he is all-time great bowler who could bat a bit. Neither are all-rounders.

Imran on the other hand most certainly was a genuine all-rounder and the finest ever too.

[ganeshran]

These two posts show quite clearly how silly and idiotic this thread is. Really expected better from some of our Indian friends.

To be considered a proper Test all-rounder, the player should be good enough to play as either batsman or bowler. Kallis does not qualify. He is an all-time great batsman who can bowl a bit. Just like Wasim Akram does not qualify - he is all-time great bowler who could bat a bit. Neither are all-rounders.

Imran on the other hand most certainly was a genuine all-rounder and the finest ever too.

Ok lets say as a batsman and bowler then if you dont agree with the original premise of my question

As a batsman - who is better ? Imran or Kallis?

As a bowler - who is better? Imran or Kallis?

As a fielder - who is better? Imran or Kallis?

[ganeshran]

My point is not to start a sledging match here. Want an objective analysis of the point. I dont think this thread is any sillier or more idiotic than the numerous other comparison threads that have popped up

[ShehryarK]

As a batsman - who is better ? Imran or Kallis? Kallis of course - as pointed out earlier, he's an all-time great. Though Imran was a more than decent batsman, and unlike most all-rounders, he actually played many games for Pakistan as a batsman alone, without bowling at all - even when his batting was relatively weak.

As a bowler - who is better? Imran or Kallis?Imran of course - an all-time great bowler, Kallis isn't even in the picture.

As a fielder - who is better? Imran or Kallis?Eh? Who cares about fielding. If that's a criteria, let's bring in Jonty Rhodes and Fawad Alam to this debate too - Fawad is also an "all-rounder", by your previous definitions. :D

Comparing fielding to judge the greatness of an all-time great player is as useful as comparing hair styles or product endorsements or longevity. Any idiot can field well - hence the minnow teams often have good fielding.



Far more useful to compare captaincy as that is (a) a measure of a player's greatness, and (b) of real use to the team and country.

On that measure, Imran is lightyears ahead of Kallis.

[ShehryarK]

I dont think this thread is any sillier or more idiotic than the numerous other comparison threads that have popped up

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Pata nahi kya ajeeb-o-ghareeb comparisons ka season shuroo ho gya hai! :P

[mrk]

Kallis is better batsmenn men Imran Khan can be compared with him since Imran Khan is in his own class. And why do we compare every player ???? Thats from our cultur as our parents like to compare children eduaction etc.... GROW UP PPL

[Jo_Don]

Eh? Who cares about fielding.
It's precisely that sort of attitude why subcontinent teams suck at fielding.

[ShehryarK]

It's precisely that sort of attitude why subcontinent teams suck at fielding.

I was being facetious mate.

A tongue-in-cheek comment.

A moment of jest.

Lighten up. "Its precisely that sort of ultra-serious and humourless attitude why South Africans get a rep for being humourless" :P

[ganeshran]

Far more useful to compare captaincy as that is (a) a measure of a player's greatness, and (b) of real use to the team and country.

On that measure, Imran is lightyears ahead of Kallis.

We cannot compare captaincy because Kallis has only been SA captain for 1-2 test matches

And IMO fielding is as important a point of comparison between any two player. We dont bring in Jonty rhodes with the same logic of not bringing in Muralitharan / Wasim akram for bowling comparison or Sachin / Ponting for batting comparisons

[cricketfan2010]

Kaills all the way. Imran never won a test match or saved a test match with his batting.

Kallis has done both with his bowling and batting.

[Amjid Javed]

One of the worse comparisons ever! Do people even think when they create such threads?

[ganeshran]

One of the worse comparisons ever! Do people even think when they create such threads?

Care to elaborate?

[IAJ]

These two posts show quite clearly how silly and idiotic this thread is. Really expected better from some of our Indian friends.

To be considered a proper Test all-rounder, the player should be good enough to play as either batsman or bowler. Kallis does not qualify. He is an all-time great batsman who can bowl a bit. Just like Wasim Akram does not qualify - he is all-time great bowler who could bat a bit. Neither are all-rounders.
Imran on the other hand most certainly was a genuine all-rounder and the finest ever too.

Calm down a bit paa ji, it's fair enough to say that Imran was a better all-rounder than Kallis, but to eliminate Kallis from the Allrounder-list is just too much isn't it?

[Zain93]

You can't compare the two. One's a Batting All-rounder, while the others a bowling all-rounder. Statistically Kallis is the better cricketer but its really the opinion of any person. I honestly can't pick between the two. That's how much I rate Kallis.

Stop bringing Captaincy into it. This 'comparison' has nothing to do with leadership. Imran was obviously the better Captain, but to say Kallis has not led from the front on occasions is an absurd statement as well. Dhoni isn't a better player than Sachin, just because he's a better Captain. Get real. We're comparing their cricketing ability, not their tactical decisions.

[Sahil.]

Kallis is a far superior asset to the team compared to Imran Khan . Balls to the captaincy , I will choose kallis as a player in my team and let Waugh do the captaincy , than include Imran as an allrounder when Kallis is miles better away

[tanzeel]

There is no comparison. Kallis is ahead by a country mile. He may even be classed as greatest cricketer ever lived.. Even better then great Sir Gary Sobers.

Imran probably wasn't even a greatest all rounder in his own era.. he had to compete with Botham, Headley, and Kapil. Headley was a best bowler of the lot. Botham was a best batsman of the lot.

Kallis is also a fantastic slip fielder. Imran was probably one of the worst fielders even in Pakistan team full of lazy fielders. I once saw someone steal 2 runs when ball went straight to Imran. He was fieleding at mid on and ball went straight to him. He was too lazy to bend down and stop with his hand, he stopped the ball with his foot. Before he could bend over and pick up the ball Batsmen stole two runs..

Imran however may have been one of the finest captains ever regardless of his win-loss record. He was a very good captain.

You really don't know cricket, do you? Imran batted in an era where every team bar India and Sri Lanka had a world class bowling lineup(WI: the quartet, Aus: Lillee/Thomson, NZ: Hadlee, England: Botham, Willis) and he still averaged 38 with the bat(that, in today's averages would be around 44). On top of that, he took over 4 wickets per test at 22.81 against batting lineups consisting of Lloyd, Richards, Gower, Gooch, Border, Steve Waugh, the Crowes among others. Sobers and Kallis on the other hand were/are mainly batsmen who can turn their arm around. Both average less than 3 wickets per match(less than 2 in Kallis' case) at averages of 35 and 32 respectively so they wouldn't really make it into any team based purely on their bowling. Imran on the other hand would walk into any team of his time purely as a batsman or bowler. Now the other three you mentioned, Hadlee and Botham with batting averages in the 20s and low 30s would struggle to make it into most sides purely as batsmen and Kapil Dev wouldn't even make it into most top teams of his time as a bowler, let alone a batsman. Does any one of Kallis/Sobers/Botham/Hadlee/Kapil Dev average almost 40 with the bat and 22 with the ball? All of them(minus Kapil Dev, who wasn't really a specialist at anything) specialized in one department and were decent at the other. Imran was the only one who was world class in both.

[ganeshran]

I also consider Imran Khan to be the better overall cricketer, but dont think the difference between him and Kallis is as much as you make it out to be.

If Kallis plays for another few years, he will certainly deserve to be called the better of the two.

[Robert]

He would be picked for his bowling for India. He'd be the fastest they ever had :D

:)))

Yeah, I bet Strauss and Cook are pooing themselves at the thought of facing India's 75 mph "pace" attack.

[Sahil.]

Even Afridi has a test batting average of 36 , does that make his batting a great asset to the test team?

Kallis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Imran

[cricketfan2010]

You really don't know cricket, do you? Imran batted in an era where every team bar India and Sri Lanka had a world class bowling lineup(WI: the quartet, Aus: Lillee/Thomson, NZ: Hadlee, England: Botham, Willis) and he still averaged 38 with the bat(that, in today's averages would be around 44). On top of that, he took over 4 wickets per test at 22.81 against batting lineups consisting of Lloyd, Richards, Gower, Gooch, Border, Steve Waugh, the Crowes among others. Sobers and Kallis on the other hand were/are mainly batsmen who can turn their arm around. Both average less than 3 wickets per match(less than 2 in Kallis' case) at averages of 35 and 32 respectively so they wouldn't really make it into any team based purely on their bowling. Imran on the other hand would walk into any team of his time purely as a batsman or bowler. Now the other three you mentioned, Hadlee and Botham with batting averages in the 20s and low 30s would struggle to make it into most sides purely as batsmen and Kapil Dev wouldn't even make it into most top teams of his time as a bowler, let alone a batsman. Does any one of Kallis/Sobers/Botham/Hadlee/Kapil Dev average almost 40 with the bat and 22 with the ball? All of them(minus Kapil Dev, who wasn't really a specialist at anything) specialized in one department and were decent at the other. Imran was the only one who was world class in both.
No. Kallis just too good. . His record shows he is far superior then Imran or for anyone else for that matter.

In any case this comparision is futile. Even Sir Don rated Sobers as greatest cricketer ever. So comparision between Kallis and Sobers will be more apt.

Imran wouldn't have got into any side with his batting alone. He was too weak against quality bowling. Imran wasn't even a greatest all rounder in his own era.

[Amjid Javed]

Care to elaborate?

Kallis is a top quality batsmen who turns his arm over.

Imran khan along with sobers one of greatest genuine all rounders

to play the game.

Name me 1 great bowling performance from Kallis that sticks in your head in a test match?

Please dont uses cricindia statsguru because thats not what am after.

[Amjid Javed]

No. Kallis just too good. . His record shows he is far superior then Imran or for anyone else for that matter.

In any case this comparision is futile. Even Sir Don rated Sobers as greatest cricketer ever. So comparision between Kallis and Sobers will be more apt.

Imran wouldn't have got into any side with his batting alone. He was too weak against quality bowling. Imran wasn't even a greatest all rounder in his own era.

So who was Kapil dev? :)))

[mastermind_quad]

LOlz .....ye comparison mazedar hai ...haha....:D

[Sahil.]

Imran wasn't even a greatest all rounder in his own era.

Thats right he had stiff competition from the likes of Botham and Hadlee , Imran wasnt even selected in the All Time test eleven speaks a lot about his ability . Gary sobers is the most accepted option as the greatest all rounder , but now kallis is giving his a hard fight for the battle . Imran therefore comes nowhere in the scenario of being the greatest all rounder , has to be someone between Sobers and Kallis.

[cricketkhan88]

Kallis is way better than anybody..........There can be many Imran khan like all rounders in future but nobody can do wt kallis has been doing for SA.......

[Robert]

Imran wouldn't have got into any side with his batting alone. He was too weak against quality bowling.

Actually, he played a lot of tests purely as a batsman when recovering from his shin splint problems.

And I can think of at least one test century against the full-power WI attack.

[90MPH]

Funny all the Indians are the only ones saying Kallis is the better all rounder. I am more than sure that most of them are under the age of 25 or were not even born when Imran was at his
peak.
Kallis should be compared to the overrated Kapil Dev - Kallis for me just edges it :odoyo

[Robert]

Hadlee and Botham with batting averages in the 20s and low 30s would struggle to make it into most sides purely as batsmen

On Hadlee I agree, but did you know that Botham had 14 test hundreds - a better record tham his team-mates Gatting and Lamb?

[MRSN]

No. Kallis just too good. . His record shows he is far superior then Imran or for anyone else for that matter.

In any case this comparision is futile. Even Sir Don rated Sobers as greatest cricketer ever. So comparision between Kallis and Sobers will be more apt.

Imran wouldn't have got into any side with his batting alone. He was too weak against quality bowling. Imran wasn't even a greatest all rounder in his own era.

What I know that he was bradman when it came to win the crucial matches(wc semi final,final etc)...your point fails...

[ganeshran]

Kallis is a top quality batsmen who turns his arm over.

Imran khan along with sobers one of greatest genuine all rounders

to play the game.


If you dont call Kallis an all-rounder because he is not a complete bowler, than going by that yardstick Imran Khan couldnt be called an all-rounder as well because his bowling was his primary skill

Almost all all-rounders have been good at one skill more than other.

[MRSN]

Kallis is way better than anybody..........There can be many Imran khan like all rounders in future but nobody can do wt kallis has been doing for SA.......

There will be no Imran khan .....362 wickets at an average of 22.00 in just 88 games and played very crucial inning with the bat to win the matches for us.............THERE WILL BE NONE LIKE HIM.

[90MPH]

What I know that he was bradman when it came to win the crucial matches(wc semi final,final etc)...your point fails...

Its not his fault, he is from the "IPL generation".

[Sahil.]

Oh just checked Ian botham stats


Botham has scored 14 centuries while Imran has only 6

Botham has 383 wickets while Imran stands at 362 .

Even in this comparison , Botham triumphs Imran

Botham seems far more skilled in both batting/bowling compared to Imran
14 centuries are way too many for an allrounder plus closer to 400 wickets

[Zain93]

Thats right he had stiff competition from the likes of Botham and Hadlee , Imran wasnt even selected in the All Time test eleven speaks a lot about his ability .

Imran was better than both. Botham the best batsman of the lot? What did he do against WI? Absolutely nothing. Look at Imran's record against WI and then speak about his ability. Inder Imran we never once lost to WI and even deserved a series win against them in WI, but we were robbed a by a poor umpiring decision. Imran led from the front with his performances.

Botham's best performances came against an average Australian side and when he faced the best side in the World he could do nothing with either the bat or ball. Isn't that the measure of a great player. Their record against the best sides in the world?

Also Imran's record is not a fair assessment. He missed two of his best years (Late 20's which are considered 'Prime') and yet he still took 350+ wickets. To return after two years and still be amazing shows that he would have easily gotten 400+ wickets and possible 450+ if he hadn't got injured for such a long period of time.

Botham is such an overrated cricketer by all accounts. He was an average batsman and once he lost his pace, he was an average bowler. True bowlers re-create themselves when they lose pace. Botham was not able to. Imran Khan did. Botham's best performances came against New Zealand and India who were both less than par during his time. A batting average of 20 and bowling average of 35 against WI just shows that he wasn't the 'Greatest' all-rounder and was from no where the best batsman of the lot. Imran Khan is miles ahead of Botham.

[Mujtaba_Saeed]

Kallis

[MRSN]

If you dont call Kallis an all-rounder because he is not a complete bowler, than going by that yardstick Imran Khan couldnt be called an all-rounder as well because his bowling was his primary skill

Almost all all-rounders have been good at one skill more than other.

Since when Kallis won the crucial matches with the ball?Imran done that many times with the bat and biggest achievement was winning the world cup and he was also leading his side... Facts are facts :afridi

http://officialpakinfo.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/imran-khan2.jpg

[proud_pakistani]

How people are rating Kallis above Imran is beyond me....Kallis is more of a pure batsman rather than an all-rounder.. Kallis might have won loads of games for SA with his batting but I doubt he has ever made a substantial contribution with the ball..whereas Imran won games for Pakistan due to his batting and bowling...

[tanzeel]

On Hadlee I agree, but did you know that Botham had 14 test hundreds - a better record tham his team-mates Gatting and Lamb?

That's a very Indian-esque approach to take, counting the number of centuries. Lets not forget that he did that over 108 tests and still averaged 33 with the bat.

[tanzeel]

If you dont call Kallis an all-rounder because he is not a complete bowler, than going by that yardstick Imran Khan couldnt be called an all-rounder as well because his bowling was his primary skill

Almost all all-rounders have been good at one skill more than other.

There's a difference. Whilst Imran's bowling was his primary skill, he still averaged almost 40 with the bat against the likes of Marshall, Holding, Garner, Lillee, Thomson and Hadlee to complement a bowling average of 22.

[90MPH]

According to IPL fans Sir Ravendra Jadeja is the next best thing since slice bread. Their opinions means zilch.

[ganeshran]

From wikipedia.

Minimisation is a type of deception involving denial coupled with rationalisation in situations where complete denial is implausible. It is the opposite of exaggeration.

Minimization may also take the form of cognitive distortion:

that avoids acknowledging and dealing with negative emotions by reducing the importance and impact of events that give rise to those emotions.

that avoids conscious confrontation with the negative impacts of one's behavior on others by reducing the perception of such impacts.

that avoids interpersonal confrontation by reducing the perception of the impact of others' behavior on oneself.

[90MPH]

Imran had a batting average of 50 in his last 50 test matches as well, he couldn't bowl for 2 years either but played purely as a batsman - This information is for IPL fans only.:waqar

[proud_pakistani]

Oh just checked Ian botham stats


Botham has scored 14 centuries while Imran has only 6

Botham has 383 wickets while Imran stands at 362 .

Even in this comparison , Botham triumphs Imran

Botham seems far more skilled in both batting/bowling compared to Imran
14 centuries are way too many for an allrounder plus closer to 400 wickets

U might have looked at stats but the way u analysed them was clearly inadept.

Imran Khan averaged 37.69 in tests compared to Bothams 33.54

whereas in the bowling department Imran averaged 22.81 while Botham averaged 28...

and if u start looking at ODIs even there Imran owns Botham and Imran is probably one of the few all-rounders that has managed to have the same form in ODIs as tests...

[Romali_rotti]

Imran was better than both. Botham the best batsman of the lot? What did he do against WI? Absolutely nothing. Look at Imran's record against WI and then speak about his ability. Inder Imran we never once lost to WI and even deserved a series win against them in WI, but we were robbed a by a poor umpiring decision. Imran led from the front with his performances.

Botham's best performances came against an average Australian side and when he faced the best side in the World he could do nothing with either the bat or ball. Isn't that the measure of a great player. Their record against the best sides in the world?

Also Imran's record is not a fair assessment. He missed two of his best years (Late 20's which are considered 'Prime') and yet he still took 350+ wickets. To return after two years and still be amazing shows that he would have easily gotten 400+ wickets and possible 450+ if he hadn't got injured for such a long period of time.

Botham is such an overrated cricketer by all accounts. He was an average batsman and once he lost his pace, he was an average bowler. True bowlers re-create themselves when they lose pace. Botham was not able to. Imran Khan did. Botham's best performances came against New Zealand and India who were both less than par during his time. A batting average of 20 and bowling average of 35 against WI just shows that he wasn't the 'Greatest' all-rounder and was from no where the best batsman of the lot. Imran Khan is miles ahead of Botham.

Never lost even 1 test series to the Windies ?

[Romali_rotti]

Imran had a batting average of 50 in his last 50 test matches as well, he couldn't bowl for 2 years either but played purely as a batsman - This information is for IPL fans only.:waqar

WOnder what his avg was if you took out his Not Outs during that period...

[Zain93]

Never lost even 1 test series to the Windies ?

Nope. We always drew.

[Romali_rotti]

Nope. We always drew.

Thats impressive not losing a single test series home or away against the WIs side of those days...

[tanzeel]

WOnder what his avg was if you took out his Not Outs during that period...

Wonder what x would be if you take y out? I've never seen anyone take out Michael Bevan or Dhoni's NOs out, why the selective bias here?

[90MPH]

WOnder what his avg was if you took out his Not Outs during that period...

He played for the team, not records unlike some who just wanted to get the highest wicket record :kapil

[ganeshran]

There's a difference. Whilst Imran's bowling was his primary skill, he still averaged almost 40 with the bat against the likes of Marshall, Holding, Garner, Lillee, Thomson and Hadlee to complement a bowling average of 22.

If we go by statistics, then Kallis will be way ahead of Imran, except in bowling average which Imran was better at by a long range.

My whole point of this was just to show when our cricketing hereos are compared with any other team's brilliant star we do tend to discount their performances and exaggerate our icons' performances.

We Indians do that with Sachin and Kapil Dev and you guys do it with Imran Khan or Akram (no comparisons between these now please). The reason its not done for all players, is that though many cricketers are popular, very few actually reach that pinnacle of admiration. They are our role models and to even agree that another cricketer (no matter how talented) even comes close to them seems like betrayal to us. We are ready to dig every statistic on earth to discredit the mortal being compared to our STAR.

Its not objective or rational, but thats how cricket is in the subcontinent.

[Sahil.]

Nope. We always drew.


No amount of lies can help you project an ordinary All-Rounder like Imran along with the likes of Sobers/Kallis. He will be only as less or more great than all-rounders of his time such Hadlee or Botham.

Your Impressive Imran never helped your team win a single series against the windies . Talking about Greatness , you sure you never lost a test series against windies with Imran in the side?

No mate , you did lose two series against the windies and never won

Pakistan in West Indies Test Series 1976/77

West Indies in Pakistan Test Series 1980/81

[ganeshran]

No amount of lies can help you project an ordinary All-Rounder like Imran along with the likes of Sobers/Kallis. He will be only as less or more great than all-rounders of his time such Hadlee or Botham.

Your Impressive Imran never helped your team win a single series against the windies . Talking about Greatness , you sure you never lost a test series against windies with Imran in the side?

No mate , you did lose two series against the windies and never won

Pakistan in West Indies Test Series 1976/77

West Indies in Pakistan Test Series 1980/81

Did Imran actually play that long time back? I doubt it

EDIT: CI says that he debuted in 70-71. My bad

Career statistics
Test debut England v Pakistan at Birmingham, Jun 3-8, 1971 scorecard
Last Test Pakistan v Sri Lanka at Faisalabad, Jan 2-7, 1992 scorecard

[Sahil.]

Thats impressive not losing a single test series home or away against the WIs side of those days...

Bacho se records kyu pooch rahe ho.. they will even say Pakistan has won every match where Afridi has stood on the crease for 5 or more minutes and call it a record.

Pakistan have lost two series against the Windies and never won a single series . Really great display by All Rounder Imran Khan , isnt it?

Check 76 and 80 series

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/team/series_results.html?class=1;id=4;id=7;type=headtoh ead

[Sahil.]

Did Imran actually play that long time back? I doubt it

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/team/series_results.html?class=1;id=4;id=7;type=headtoh ead

Check on the years figure of the series and check for the blatant lies some of these people are spreading about Imran . Lost two series against Windies with him playing and never won a single .

what a great all-rounder.

Hyped so much for Drawing series against the Windies , without a single win.

Atleast Botham led England to a convincing win against Australia .

[Abidi110]

no amount of lies can help you project an ordinary all-rounder like imran along with the likes of sobers/kallis.

l:))l

[ganeshran]

Bacho se records kyu pooch rahe ho.. they will even say Pakistan has won every match where Afridi has stood on the crease for 5 or more minutes and call it a record.

Pakistan have lost two series against the Windies and never won a single series . Really great display by All Rounder Imran Khan , isnt it?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/series/60381.html

edit. now it points to the right link

[Zain93]

No amount of lies can help you project an ordinary All-Rounder like Imran along with the likes of Sobers/Kallis. He will be only as less or more great than all-rounders of his time such Hadlee or Botham.

Your Impressive Imran never helped your team win a single series against the windies . Talking about Greatness , you sure you never lost a test series against windies with Imran in the side?

No mate , you did lose two series against the windies and never won

Pakistan in West Indies Test Series 1976/77

West Indies in Pakistan Test Series 1980/81

I'm talking about when he was Captain. It's clearly stated in my post that "Under Imran Khan we never lost to the WI".

Learn to read and then come back to me or don't waste my time.

[90MPH]

I'm talking about when he was Captain. It's clearly stated in my post that "Under Imran Khan we never lost to the WI".

Learn to read and then come back to me or don't waste my time.

Come on be a little easy on IPL fans. They are still learning about cricket history.

[Abidi110]

I'm talking about when he was Captain. It's clearly stated in my post that "Under Imran Khan we never lost to the WI".

Learn to read and then come back to me or don't waste my time.

Just have a look as to where he hails from, no point arguing with such a person really.

[ganeshran]

Ok to settle the WI-Pak test series stats - There 6 series during Imran's career. West Indies won 2, and the rest 4 were drawn.

[Zain93]

Come on be a little easy on IPL fans. They are still learning about cricket history.

I love how he didn't reply to any other part of my post and tried to find a non-existent hole in it to 'defraud' everything I said. It clearly shows how much of an idiot he is. He probably though he was being smooth, but he ended up looking even more incompetent.

[ethan hunt]

kallis because he is all round :D

[Alif anaar]

Tests.

sobers
Imran
kallis

ODIs.

Afridi
kallis
Imran

[Zain93]

Ok to settle the WI-Pak test series stats - There 6 series during Imran's career. West Indies won 2, and the rest 4 were drawn.

That's fine, but that's not what I said. All the drawn series's came under his Captaincy which was my point, which is cleary stated in my post.

[90MPH]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/team/series_results.html?class=1;id=4;id=7;type=headtoh ead

Check on the years figure of the series and check for the blatant lies some of these people are spreading about Imran . Lost two series against Windies with him playing and never won a single .

what a great all-rounder.

Hyped so much for Drawing series against the Windies , without a single win.

Atleast Botham led England to a convincing win against Australia .

Imran did one better, he lead a Test series win against our bitter "big brother" neighbors.
Also lead to us to World Cup win, unlike the big choker :sachin

[Sahil.]

If we go by statistics, then Kallis will be way ahead of Imran, except in bowling average which Imran was better at by a long range.



We Indians do that with Sachin and Kapil Dev
There is nothing to boost about Sachin . He is great and finds his place in every Best Eleven of world on his performance and needs no praising .

[Zain93]

There is nothing to boost about Sachin . He is great and finds his place in every Best Eleven of world on his performance and needs no praising .

No one's disputing this.

Your ability(Or lack of) to read and analyze posts amazes me.

[Sahil.]

Tests.



ODIs.

Afridi
kallis
Imran

Perfect lol

[Abidi110]

Its not objective or rational, but thats how cricket is in the subcontinent.

Indeed, some aren't, your fellow brother here is a perfect example of that!

[Alif anaar]

Perfect lol

shukran ya habibi, merhaban next time

[MO]

The question is...Who would you pick if you are looking for an allrounder in your team...? Who is more likely to win a test match for you......My money is on Imran....People may disagree.....Additionally I would also make him captain of any side.....:)

[Alif anaar]

The question is...Who would you pick if you are looking for an allrounder in your team...? Who is more likely to win a test match for you......My money is on Imran....People may disagree.....Additionally I would also make him captain of any side.....:)

even kenya?

[ethan hunt]

kallis is an average bowler he sprays it arnd like a goat in heat

[ganeshran]

That's fine, but that's not what I said. All the drawn series's came under his Captaincy which was my point, which is cleary stated in my post.

But statistics cannot be plucked out of context to compare. You cannot say for e.g. cricketer A led us to a memorable victory on 21st May 2009 in one overseas series. He may have been excellent or poor the rest of his career.

Statistics are effective only when you use them over a larger period of time and ignore isolated series/ incidents.

Also captaincy is not in question here, since Kallis hasnt even been the captain a lot for his side.

[Zain93]

kallis is an average bowler he sprays it arnd like a goat in heat

Ridiculous statement. Kallis is one of the smartest bowlers in the game.

Yes he's average if you compare him to the likes of Steyn and Morkel but that would be unfair on him in every way!

[inzy_paratha]

sahil even after apologizing you are continuing with your trolling.
Im very disappointed :inzi

indian and pakistani posters will do everything they can to degrade the achievments of the greats from across the border, very sad that we cant just celebrate the achievments of the many great players both countries

[Monsee]

U might have looked at stats but the way u analysed them was clearly inadept.

Imran Khan averaged 37.69 in tests compared to Bothams 33.54

whereas in the bowling department Imran averaged 22.81 while Botham averaged 28...

and if u start looking at ODIs even there Imran owns Botham and Imran is probably one of the few all-rounders that has managed to have the same form in ODIs as tests...


And he conveniently ignored the number of tests both played while looking at total wickets and centuries

88 vs 102...

[Zain93]

But statistics cannot be plucked out of context to compare. You cannot say for e.g. cricketer A led us to a memorable victory on 21st May 2009 in one overseas series. He may have been excellent or poor the rest of his career.

Statistics are effective only when you use them over a larger period of time and ignore isolated series/ incidents.

Also captaincy is not in question here, since Kallis hasnt even been the captain a lot for his side.

Again that wasn't the point. My point was that he played superbly against WI and when he was Captain we never lost.

What I was stating was that Botham always struggled against WI. He was a mediocre batsman and a less than average bowler against them. Imran Khan has a brilliant record against them and it is because of his record that Pakistan were able to be on level with them. (during his Captaincy)

And I was comparing him with Botham on this, not Kallis. I did that in another post in the thread. This was a reply to him, when he pretty much called Imran Khan average, which I obviously was not going to let by me without any reply.

[ethan hunt]

Ridiculous statement. Kallis is one of the smartest bowlers in the game.

Yes he's average if you compare him to the likes of Steyn and Morkel but that would be unfair on him in every way!

i know but im a lil biased towards king khan :wasim..... kallis is great i know

[ganeshran]

sahil even after apologizing you are continuing with your trolling.
Im very disappointed :inzi

indian and pakistani posters will do everything they can to degrade the achievments of the greats from across the border, very sad that we cant just celebrate the achievments of the many great players both countries

Thats true. Same happens for Sachin also and now IK

[purplehaze]

The question is...Who would you pick if you are looking for an allrounder in your team...? Who is more likely to win a test match for you......My money is on Imran....People may disagree.....Additionally I would also make him captain of any side.....:)

If you are from Pakistan, wouldn't you want a Kallis type allrounder - with a guarantee of 57 runs per inninigs avg. and over 40 centuries than someone like Imran who was more of a bowler? I thought a batting allrounder would serve more purpose than a batting allrounder considering Pakistan faced no dearth in fast bowling department...

[ethan hunt]

sahil even after apologizing you are continuing with your trolling.
Im very disappointed :inzi

indian and pakistani posters will do everything they can to degrade the achievments of the greats from across the border, very sad that we cant just celebrate the achievments of the many great players both countries

thats not true we have always maintained that kapil dev was the pioneer of the googly and he took the dying art of legspin to another level.... he inspired a whole generation of indian trundlers :rana

[cricketfan2010]

The question is...Who would you pick if you are looking for an allrounder in your team...? Who is more likely to win a test match for you......My money is on Imran....People may disagree.....Additionally I would also make him captain of any side.....:)

Kallis again. Has done it over and over.

[Monsee]

Sahil is a troll and even at that a pretty poor one...no point wasting time arguing with him

Sahil also rhymes with Jahil...LOL:yk

[ganeshran]

The truth is that both Indians and Pakistanis would kill to have someone of the calibre of Kallis in our teams. But how dare can he can be compared with our icons :P

We will troll others heroes and defend our own till death!

[cricketfan2010]

Tests.

sobers
Imran
kallis

ODIs.

Afridi
kallis
Imran

Afridi is an all rounder?

[ganeshran]

Sahil is a troll and even at that a pretty poor one...no point wasting time arguing with him

Sahil also rhymes with Jahil...LOL:yk

Same kind of trolling happens at the numerous Sachin bashing threads and I havent seen anyone complaining. I could quote many jahil-er responses there.

[cricketfan2010]

Oh just checked Ian botham stats


Botham has scored 14 centuries while Imran has only 6

Botham has 383 wickets while Imran stands at 362 .

Even in this comparison , Botham triumphs Imran

Botham seems far more skilled in both batting/bowling compared to Imran
14 centuries are way too many for an allrounder plus closer to 400 wickets

We don't even need to look at stats. Botham was a match winner. True lionheart..

[cricketfan2010]

Even the commentrators are saying Kallis is probably the greatest all rounder ever.

[ethan hunt]

We don't even need to look at stats. Botham was a match winner. True lionheart..

exactly the reason inzimam will always b greater than sachin a true lionheart and a match winner..... stats r overrated:danish

[Abidi110]

The truth is that both Indians and Pakistanis would kill to have someone of the calibre of Kallis in our teams. But how dare can he can be compared with our icons :P

We will troll others heroes and defend our own till death!


Thats not true, i would certainly would like to see someone like Kallis in Pakistan team, and i certainly do recognize him as one of the game's great, however i would like to see someone like Imran Khan in my team over Kallis, any day and time.While i do recognize Imran as a better AR than Kallis, however that doesn't stop me from admiring Kallis too.

[Zain93]

Even the commentrators are saying Kallis is probably the greatest all rounder ever.

In my opinion they're right.

[cricketfan2010]

Sahil is a troll and even at that a pretty poor one...no point wasting time arguing with him

Sahil also rhymes with Jahil...LOL:yk

Mods should ban you for attacking another poster like that. Sahil has made some very good point here. You have nothing to say other then use derogatory language.

[Zain93]

Mods should ban you for attacking another poster like that. Sahil has made some very good point here. You have nothing to say other then use derogatory language.

Please post some of his 'good' points.

[Savak]

Seeing Sahil has directly compared Kallis to Imran without even first comparing Kallis to the likes of Hadlee, Botham, Kapil Dev is a clear indication he regards Imran above Botham, Hadlee, Kapil Dev. So thanks on that front.

As far as Kallis vs Imran is concerned. We could go on and on regarding this but logic states Kallis is the better batsman while Imran is the better bowler. Overall 2 very different cricketers but i value Imran more because he accepted the captaincy responsibility for 10 long years. Kallis in contrast runs away from captaincy responsibilities and he has refused the captaincy of the side a long term basis.

Things which work in Imran's favor

1) He bowled on the flatest graveyard of pitches for most of his life and still has a better bowling average than Kallis. What's Kallis bowling average in the subcontinent?

2) Even though Kallis is ofcourse the better batsman but how would he have fared having to face the bowling attacks of the 70's, 80's and early 90's with the unlimited no of bouncers allowed? An average of 38 from Imran is remarkable in this context and you could easily inflate that by 7-8 points if Imran was playing in today's era. Anyways Kallis would still beat Imran as a batsman. Whats Imran's batting and bowling avg vs West Indies? Whats Kallis batting and bowling average vs Australia?

To the OP, why not compare Kallis to the likes of Hadlee, Botham, Kapil Dev, Sobers? or Imran to them?

[Abidi110]

Please post some of his 'good' points.

Imran being an "ordinary AR" and you and others being habitual liars!

[Stewie]

thats like comparing bradman and tendulkar again...


imran was a bowling all rounder.. kallis is a batting all rounder.. they played in different eras.. one was also a captain... the other is not.. too many different factors to consider... as a batting all rounder NOBODY WILL COME CLOSE TO KALLIS..

asa bowling all rounder Imran was better of course.

[ganeshran]

Thats not true, i would certainly would like to see someone like Kallis in Pakistan team, and i certainly do recognize him as one of the game's great, however i would like to see someone like Imran Khan in my team over Kallis, any day and time.While i do recognize Imran as a better AR than Kallis, however that doesn't stop me from admiring Kallis too.

Thats what my post implied too..

[Savak]

Mods should ban you for attacking another poster like that. Sahil has made some very good point here. You have nothing to say other then use derogatory language.

Plz summarize his points which make his argument compelling

[cricketfan2010]

exactly the reason inzimam will always b greater than sachin a true lionheart and a match winner..... stats r overrated:danish

So you are effectively saying that Botham was better then Imran. :asif:razzaq Which mean Imran wasn't a best all round even in his own era. Headley was a better bowler then him and Botham was a better all rounder then him.

you may want to start another thread for Inzy Vs. Sachin as there currently only 99 threads comparing the two.

[Sahil.]

Mods should ban you for attacking another poster like that. Sahil has made some very good point here. You have nothing to say other then use derogatory language.

Thats irrelevant yaar . Every point made that goes against overhyped Pakistani self-made greats like Inzamam and Imran automatically falls under the " Troll" category .

[cricketfan2010]

Plz summarize his points which make his argument compelling

Are you endorsing behaviour of another poster who is using offensive language towards someone simply because he is not able to win an arguement?

[cricfan967]

let's not only look at stats
imran won the team a world cup

nevertheless both are very closely matched all rounders.

[Monsee]

Same kind of trolling happens at the numerous Sachin bashing threads and I havent seen anyone complaining. I could quote many jahil-er responses there.




What you haven't conceded (at least I did not read yet)...that is a poor comparison to begin with, something I pointed out in my first post in this thread!

Who cares what you have seen and who did what stupid comparisons before...your comparison is not valid, end of discussion!

[ethan hunt]

So you are effectively saying that Botham was better then Imran. :asif:razzaq Which mean Imran wasn't a best all round even in his own era. Headley was a better bowler then him and Botham was a better all rounder then him.

you may want to start another thread for Inzy Vs. Sachin as there currently only 99 threads comparing the two.

ur disregard for stats lead me to the conclusion that :malik is a better all rounder than kapil ever was .... but on second thought malik really is better than dev sahab

[Abidi110]

ur disregard for stats lead me to the conclusion that :malik is a better all rounder than kapil ever was .... but on second thought malik really is better than dev sahab

He took your sarcasm seriously..LOL

[Sahil.]

exactly the reason inzimam will always b greater than sachin a true lionheart and a match winner..... stats r overrated:danish

sure we can compare both of them if Inzamam comes back from retirement and scores some decent runs against the top bowling attacks in the world ( SA and AUS) , against whom he has a pretty lame average . Such a one dimensional player , real flat track bully of the subcontinent.

[Savak]

Are you endorsing behaviour of another poster who is using offensive language towards someone simply because he is not able to win an arguement?

I dont endorse such behavior but winning/losing certain arguments are subjective.

But i dont think the OP has a case here, i have yet to see a compelling point from him and he is just blindly making wholistic judgements based on statistics without digging deeper into them. So far the OP has won this argument either.

[Abidi110]

Thats irrelevant yaar . Every point made that goes against overhyped Pakistani self-made greats like Inzamam and Imran automatically falls under the " Troll" category .

Every famed Pakistan cricket are just overhyped self-made great, its not possible for a Pakistani cricketer to be an actual great of the game, as only Indians have the divine right to be regarded so highly.

[Zain93]

2) Even though Kallis is ofcourse the better batsman but how would he have fared having to face the bowling attacks of the 70's, 80's and early 90's with the unlimited no of bouncers allowed? An average of 38 from Imran is remarkable in this context and you could easily inflate that by 7-8 points if Imran was playing in today's era. Anyways Kallis would still beat Imran as a batsman. Whats Imran's batting and bowling avg vs West Indies? Whats Kallis batting and bowling average vs Australia?

Kallis is probably the most proper batsman I have seen. He would have probably averaged around the mid to late 40's, which for that Era is still superb. His technique and class would have propelled him to great achievements in that Era as well. Let's not forget his amazing temperament as well. Seriously, I don't have enough things to say about him. He's just that good.


Imran being an "ordinary AR" and you and others being habitual liars!

Please quote me as to where I have lied. Key word being I. My posts only. Go and find them and I'm certain you will find nothing. Tasteless post this. You clearly have not been reading anything that I have stated.

[Sahil.]

Every famed Pakistan cricket are just overhyped self-made great, its not possible for a Pakistani cricketer to be an actual great of the game, as only Indians have the divine right to be regarded so highly.

Wasim / Waqar = Greatest and Incomparable

[Savak]

Thats irrelevant yaar . Every point made that goes against overhyped Pakistani self-made greats like Inzamam and Imran automatically falls under the " Troll" category .

Why do u think Imran is over rated?

[UmarAkmals-fan]

Bacho se records kyu pooch rahe ho
they will even say Pakistan has won every match where Afridi has stood on the crease for 5 or more minutes and call it a record.

Pakistan have lost two series against the Windies and never won a single series . Really great display by All Rounder Imran Khan , isnt it?

Check 76 and 80 series

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/team/series_results.html?class=1;id=4;id=7;type=headtoh ead
learn to read the post u want to answer clearly before u leave ur retarded comments :facepalm:

I'm talking about when he was Captain. It's clearly stated in my post that "Under Imran Khan we never lost to the WI".

Learn to read and then come back to me or don't waste my time.

another IPL"er owned :))) :yk

[Savak]

Kallis is probably the most proper batsman I have seen. He would have probably averaged around the mid to late 40's, which for that Era is still superb. His technique and class would have propelled him to great achievements in that Era as well. Let's not forget his amazing temperament as well. Seriously, I don't have enough things to say about him. He's just that good.

Kallis in my view is the best batsman in the world right now. But i would still refrain from giving him the benefit of the doubt if he played in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. Great players should also be judged by seeing how they perform in pressure situations and most importantly against quality teams with powerful/ruthless bowling attacks and only Australia fits the description in the era Kallis played.

[duostyle]

I'd actually have them both in my team. Kallis for batting and some useful overs (a bit like Collingwood) and Imran as the strike bowler and someone who could come in at 5/6 down to add a few runs.

If I had to choose between the two: I'd look at my team, if I've got a good batting side, I'd choose Imran. If the bowling is good enough, I'd choose Kallis.

[Abidi110]

Please quote me as to where I have lied. Key word being I. My posts only. Go and find them and I'm certain you will find nothing. Tasteless post this. You clearly have not been reading anything that I have stated.

Array bhai, when did i say you ever lied, i was only trying to point out what stupid things that troll has been saying which someone was regarding a valid argument.

[purplehaze]

Comparison on who won more matches for his team

No of test matches SA won when Kallis scored 50 or more runs : 50% (40 out of 80)

No of test matches PA won when Imran scored 50 or more runs : 21% (5 out of 23)

Kallis wins batting contest. Let's see the bowling now -

No. of test matches SA won when Kallis took 4 or more wickets/ innings : 92% (11 out of 12)

No. of test matches PAK won when Imran took 4 or more wickets/ innings : 43% (14 out of 32)

Kallis wins bowling contest too.

So, from batting/ bowling perspective - can we safely conclude Kallis is better than Imran since he won more for his team? :sachin

[ethan hunt]

Comparison on who won more matches for his team

No of test matches SA won when Kallis scored 50 or more runs : 50% (40 out of 80)

No of test matches PA won when Imran scored 50 or more runs : 21% (5 out of 23)

Kallis wins batting contest. Let's see the bowling now -

No. of test matches SA won when Kallis took 4 or more wickets/ innings : 92% (11 out of 12)

No. of test matches PAK won when Imran took 4 or more wickets/ innings : 43% (14 out of 32)

Kallis wins bowling contest too.

So, can we safely conclude Kallis is better than Imran since he won more for his team? :sachin

why just 4 wickets why not 5 or even 10 in the match ????? why 50 runs why not 10 or more :farhat

[Abidi110]

Why do u think Imran is over rated?

Coz he was a Pakistani, someone who gave India nightmare for ages, something which they can't deny.

[Zain93]

Array bhai, when did i say you ever lied, i was only trying to point out what stupid things that troll has been saying which someone was regarding a valid argument.

Haha my bad. I read your post in the wrong sense.

[ethan hunt]

inzi and imran overrated ?????????? werent most indians saying that atul " tyre flipping " sharma was the best thing since Roghni Naan

[90MPH]

thats not true we have always maintained that kapil dev was the pioneer of the googly and he took the dying art of legspin to another level.... he inspired a whole generation of indian trundlers :rana

LOL. I take my word back - kapil is a legend for inspiring a battery of Indian Medium millitary trundlers.

[TigerJat]

Imran's bowling was as good as Kallis's batting. But his batting was much better than Kallis' bowling.

Secondly, Imran was a great captain. That in itself is a great accomplishment, he led his team to win the world cup.

South Africa with Kallis have always chocked in big tournaments.

As such Imran wins it over Kallis quite easily.

[Abidi110]

inzi and imran overrated ?????????? werent most indians saying that atul " tyre flipping " sharma was the best thing since Roghni Naan

I know some Pakistanis do rates some cricketers highly like Afridi and Fawad who shouldn't even be rated in the first place, but labeling true greats of the game as "over-hyped" coz of blind hatred for neighbors is pure insanity.

[UmarAkmals-fan]

Kallis again. Has done it over and over.
so did imran ...its not his fault u were not born in his era or u were too small
Even the commentrators are saying Kallis is probably the greatest all rounder ever.
toay i heard 1 of the commetators say the battle between sehwag and steyn has been won by steyn ..so is that true
Why do u think Imran is over rated?

because he is a pakistani

[purplehaze]

why just 4 wickets why not 5 or even 10 in the match ????? why 50 runs why not 10 or more :farhat

What's your point? :asadrauf

[UmarAkmals-fan]

I know some Pakistanis do rates some cricketers highly like Afridi and Fawad who shouldn't even be rated in the first place, but labeling true greats of the game as "over-hyped" coz of blind hatred for neighbors is pure insanity.

let them say our legends r ovverated bla bla ..the facts is our oveerated owned them for most of there cricketing history ..so we should be happy with our overrated usless players :akhtar :malik

[proud_pakistani]

Wasim / Waqar = Greatest and Incomparable

u have labelled Wasim / Waqar the greatest and incomparable...but one thing u are missing out is Imran averaged less than these greats...Imran bowled at 22 whereas Wasim and Waqar both have averages of 23+...so he is greater than ur labelled greats...and he has done exceptionally well with the bat...calling Imran over rated is the worst possible thing you can say...hes the one who taught Wasim and Waqar tricks of the trade...

[purplehaze]

Imran's bowling was as good as Kallis's batting. But his batting was much better than Kallis' bowling.

Secondly, Imran was a great captain. That in itself is a great accomplishment, he led his team to win the world cup.

South Africa with Kallis have always chocked in big tournaments.

As such Imran wins it over Kallis quite easily.

How can Imran be better when he won lesser test matches for his country? Imran maybe a better performer but all those performances didn't help Pakistan win after all...

[Amjid Javed]

I'm talking about when he was Captain. It's clearly stated in my post that "Under Imran Khan we never lost to the WI".

Learn to read and then come back to me or don't waste my time.

:))) Great response!

[Abidi110]

How can Imran be better when he won lesser test matches for his country? Imran maybe a better performer but all those performances didn't help Pakistan win after all...

Sounds like Imran was a player of individual sports like tennis, rather than a team's sport like cricket.

[Cricrazy]

Can someone do a comparison b/w Khan and Dev...

now it'll be interesting to see the comments on that thread..

[purplehaze]

Sounds like Imran was a player of individual sports like tennis, rather than a team's sport like cricket.

be prepared - all of a sudden winning matches for country won't be important anymore :)

[purplehaze]

Can someone do a comparison b/w Khan and Dev...

now it'll be interesting to see the comments on that thread..

how can a comparison thread between Dev and Khan can help decide who's better between Imran and Kallis? :facepalm:

[Abidi110]

be prepared - all of a sudden winning matches for country won't be important anymore :)

It is important, however it can NEVER be a deciding factor especially when you are comparing two different team of completely different ages.

[Abidi110]

how can a comparison thread between Dev and Khan can help decide who's better between Imran and Kallis? :facepalm:

Why facepalm? the emphasis on his posts were on posters comments on such threads.A thread on Imran/Kapil will certainly have some interesting posts.

[duostyle]

If we go by statistics, then Kallis will be way ahead of Imran, except in bowling average which Imran was better at by a long range.

My whole point of this was just to show when our cricketing hereos are compared with any other team's brilliant star we do tend to discount their performances and exaggerate our icons' performances.

We Indians do that with Sachin and Kapil Dev and you guys do it with Imran Khan or Akram (no comparisons between these now please). The reason its not done for all players, is that though many cricketers are popular, very few actually reach that pinnacle of admiration. They are our role models and to even agree that another cricketer (no matter how talented) even comes close to them seems like betrayal to us. We are ready to dig every statistic on earth to discredit the mortal being compared to our STAR.

Its not objective or rational, but thats how cricket is in the subcontinent.

Anyhow, OP was this supposed to be a valid comparison or did you just choose Imran because recently some people have been comparing Kallis and Sachin?

[tanzeel]

u have labelled Wasim / Waqar the greatest and incomparable...but one thing u are missing out is Imran averaged less than these greats...Imran bowled at 22 whereas Wasim and Waqar both have averages of 23+...so he is greater than ur labelled greats...and he has done exceptionally well with the bat...calling Imran over rated is the worst possible thing you can say...hes the one who taught Wasim and Waqar tricks of the trade...

Seriously, you're gonna argue facts with an obvious troll?

[Sahil.]

Can someone do a comparison b/w Khan and Dev...

now it'll be interesting to see the comments on that thread..



Kapil V/s Khan : Khan wins by a mile


Kallis v/s Khan : Kallis wins by a good margin

[Fawad]

Kapil V/s Khan : Khan wins by a mile


Kallis v/s Khan : Kallis wins by a good margin

So if Imran is 'ordinary' then Kapil paa jee must be third class :yk

[Prince_Pathan]

imran khan

great bowler

faced a good bowling attack all the time

won us the world cup as a captain

all i can say is...all round is defined as pretty much the above

so imran khan by a long shot...

the day kallis wins his team a world cup is the day you compare :)

but kallis is a great batsman

[purplehaze]

It is important, however it can NEVER be a deciding factor especially when you are comparing two different team of completely different ages.

either you haven't been to those Sachin Vs. threads OR would have forgotten the comparison merit. All stats are useless if they don't result in team's win - it's accepted yardstick by majority here ;-)

[Sahil.]

So if Imran is 'ordinary' then Kapil paa jee must be third class :yk

Sure if thats what you gonna call him , I agree . Anyways Imran remains ordinary , has been fighting for the All rounders slot Title with Botham and Hadlee in his generation . Sobers and Kallis way ahead of Khan in that context.
Kapil is more of an Indian Legend considering the fact we never had good All-rounders and he was the best among the available ones and played pretty good contribution in WC.

[purplehaze]

Why facepalm? the emphasis on his posts were on posters comments on such threads.A thread on Imran/Kapil will certainly have some interesting posts.

I still don't understand how can that thread help decide who's better between Kallis and Imran?

[purplehaze]

Sure if thats what you gonna call him , I agree . Anyways Imran remains ordinary , has been fighting for the All rounders slot Title with Botham and Hadlee in his generation . Sobers and Kallis way ahead of Khan in that context.
Kapil is more of an Indian Legend considering the fact we never had good All-rounders and he was the best among the available ones and played pretty good contribution in WC.

In terms of winnings test matches for team - Sobers should be head and shoulders above the rest two. Imran would be last on that criterion.

[Cricrazy]

how can a comparison thread between Dev and Khan can help decide who's better between Imran and Kallis? :facepalm:

N where/when did I say it'll help.. ??

[Cricrazy]

how can a comparison thread between Dev and Khan can help decide who's better between Imran and Kallis? :facepalm:

N where/when did I say it'll help.. ??

Just something that would be a interesting read... (don't forget, funny)

[philhunter]

Imran Khan as batsmen cant even hold a jock compared to Kallis as batsmen, as fielder Imran Khan was the worst, as catcher he was below average Kaillis is world class in both.

Bowling Imran Khan is lot better but overall value Imran Khan is nothing compared to Kallis.

Kallis may be the best cricketer ever to play this game and you are comparing him with Imran Khan.

[Justcrazy]

Imran played much superior bowlers during his time.
Moreover in about 15 - 20 Imran played purely as a batsman, showing how much was his presence valued in the Team.

[ganeshran]

Anyhow, OP was this supposed to be a valid comparison or did you just choose Imran because recently some people have been comparing Kallis and Sachin?

Yes that was the exact reason why I chose Imran, to show to what extents we would go to ridicule the other country's hereos and defend our own icons.

There were two threads comparing Kallis and Sachin where PP users said Indians do not appreciate someone criticizing or comparing their Hero. There were praises heaped on Kallis (something which he totally deserves IMO) but the minute the comparison turned into one of your own hereos it became very difficult to be objective and Kallis got called a choker and an ordinary bowler

My point is, the reality of Kallis's abilities never changed regardless of whom he was being compared to, but our perceptions changed nonetheless.

[cricketfan2010]

Imran played much superior bowlers during his time.
Moreover in about 15 - 20 Imran played purely as a batsman, showing how much was his presence valued in the Team.

Or just showed how poor pakistan batting unit was at that time.

[cricketfan2010]

Imran Khan as batsmen cant even hold a jock compared to Kallis as batsmen, as fielder Imran Khan was the worst, as catcher he was below average Kaillis is world class in both.

Bowling Imran Khan is lot better but overall value Imran Khan is nothing compared to Kallis.

Kallis may be the best cricketer ever to play this game and you are comparing him with Imran Khan.

Totally agree.Kallis possibly a greatest cricketer ever..

[Riff]

Oh just checked Ian botham stats


Botham has scored 14 centuries while Imran has only 6

Botham has 383 wickets while Imran stands at 362 .

Even in this comparison , Botham triumphs Imran

Botham seems far more skilled in both batting/bowling compared to Imran
14 centuries are way too many for an allrounder plus closer to 400 wickets

How old are you kid? Everyone knows a better comparison between players is through averages.

The only reason Botham has more wickets is because he has played longer. And the who the hell compares centuries anyways :))

In Test matches:

Imran averaged 37 with the bat and 22 with the bowl
Botham averaged 33 with the bat and 28 with the bowl

In ODIs


Imran averaged 33 with the bat and 26 with the bowl
Botham averaged 23 with the bat and 28 with the bowl

Just checked the 'Lost and Found' box of PP, found your credibility there :rondu

[ganeshran]

But this thread was a comparison between Kallis and Imran,...

[Riff]

The comparison between Kallis and Imran is stupid

Imran could get into the team easily as a bowler, not as a batsman alone (although he did for Pakistan, but thats probably because the batting werent strong enough back then)

Kallis could easily get into the team as a batsman alone, but noooooo wayyyyyyy as a bowler. Not good enough.

For one of them to be considered better, they have to be in the team for both batting and bowling, which they dont.

[Mobashir]

A lot of you are comparing them wrongly.
Kallis is a batting all rounder and Imran a bowling all rounder so the comparisons should be as following :
-Kallis batting vs Imran bowling
-Kallis bowling vs Imran Batting.

Kallis's batting is superb, exellent, one of the best ever as is Imran's bowling... I think Imran bowling is closer tho be the best ever bowler than Kallis is to be the best ever batsmen(post world war II). But that is a very close call.

Same i rate Imran's batting a litle better than Kallis's bowling.

So for me it's Imran Khan better than Kallis.

[Mobashir]

Totally agree.Kallis possibly a greatest cricketer ever..

1. Imran Khan
2. Sir Garfield Sobers
3. Jacques Kallis.

[philhunter]

The comparison between Kallis and Imran is stupid

Imran could get into the team easily as a bowler, not as a batsman alone (although he did for Pakistan, but thats probably because the batting werent strong enough back then)

Kallis could easily get into the team as a batsman alone, but noooooo wayyyyyyy as a bowler. Not good enough.

For one of them to be considered better, they have to be in the team for both batting and bowling, which they dont.

Imran khan is one of the most overrated cricketers where as Kallis is one of most underrated cricketers.

[Riff]

1. Imran Khan
2. Sir Garfield Sobers
3. Jacques Kallis.

Mine would be:

1) Sobers
2) Imran
3) Kallis (didnt have the burden of captaincy to deal with)

















Kapil comes down here somewhere :bumble

[philhunter]

mine would be

Kallis,
Sobers,
Botham,
Miller,
and Imran Imran was just useless with bat all he did was pad his stats at the end of his career .

[Riff]

Imran khan is one of the most overrated cricketers where as Kallis is one of most underrated cricketers.

lol at overrated. You didnt check the comparison between Imran and Botham? .

Lets continue

Kapil averaged an embarrasing 31 with the bat and and 29 with the bowl :akhtar (test matches)

Kapil averaged 23 :))) with the bat and and 27 with the bowl (ODIs)

Hadlee averaged 27 with the bat and and 22 with the bowl in tests (same bowling average as Imran)

Hadlee averaged an embarrasing 21 with the bat and and 21 with the bowl (ODIs)

So he's already better than all the other all-rounders from his era by a mile, and it seems like Kapil Paaji is the worst one :yk

Now present your case :ajmal

[s2k]

Imran by a country mile.

Imran is a bowling all rounder and Kallis a Batting all rounder.Meaning Bowling is Imrans strength with Batting an addition.Similarly Batting is Kallis's strength with Bowling an Addition.

Imrans Bowling avg againist the top 4 teams of his era is under 25.Infact his bowling avgs is 21 againist WI the best team of his era.



Kallis avgs 29 vs England 33 vs Sl and 43 vs AUS so againist the 3 of Top 5 teams of his Era his batting has flopped.

Now lets come to the add ons

Imran avgs 38 with the bat,In fact he avgs above 35 againist all teams except WI.In fact he has a century againist all top 4 teams of his era.

How many 5fers have Kallis againist a top4-5 team?

To my fellow Indians,Give the due where it is due.some of you,and i guess you know that i am addressing you guys,stop trying to bring down the achievement of one of the top 3 all rounders ever.Kallis is not even in the same league.

[Prince_Pathan]

:14: great unbiased post s2k...the rest should probably learn to acquire humble grace like yourself...

:19:

[philhunter]

lol at overrated. You didnt check the comparison between Imran and Botham? .

Lets continue

Kapil averaged an embarrasing 31 with the bat and and 29 with the bowl :akhtar (test matches)

Kapil averaged an 23 :))) with the bat and and 27 with the bowl (ODIs)

Hadlee averaged an 27 with the bat and and 22 with the bowl in tests (same bowling average as Imran)

Hadlee averaged an embarrasing 21 with the bat and and 21 with the bowl (ODIs)

So he's already better than all the other all-rounders from a mile, and it seems Kapil Paaji is the worst one :yk

Present your case :ajmal

Btw, whats your name on ICF :ajmal


what great innings has imran ever played in his life except pads his stats as bowling all rounder which he was when he was great bowler he not even was decent batsmen who could bail his team out if it was in trouble once in his career.

and you guys are comparing him to the greatest cricketer possibly ever to have played this game.



He is most overrated cricketer in my book who never was as good as is image is, well what more can expect from people who think Afridi is greatest .

[Romali_rotti]

Wonder what x would be if you take y out? I've never seen anyone take out Michael Bevan or Dhoni's NOs out, why the selective bias here?

You may not have seen anyone take not outs of Bevan or Dhoni maybe because no one has asked for it maybe? Here I am asking how much would Imran's batting avg be during his last 50 tests if you took out his not outs since a poster was boasting about his 50 avg over that period...Dont drift just ans the question...

[MO]

I think Kallis vs Sobers is a better comparison since both are batting allrounders...I believe Sobers may have a better bowling average....not sure though....

How can you compare some one who had to captain a group of volatile individuals, take extra pressure of captaincy, be the lead bowler for most of his career and bat at number six (as opposed to number 3-4)......I firmly believe if Imran had batted up the order he would have a better average than 37 and more centuries....

Kallis is a great player but at times I have felt that he plays for himself.....One such occasion sticks in mind.... ICC Champions trophy semifinal in Srilanka in 2002.....SA had plenty of wickets in hand while chasing with Kallis on the crease....He never upped the scoring rate and SA lost with wickets to spare......I was amazed to see his approach....If Pakistan had lost a match like that everyone would have suspected Match fixing.....

Other than that he is a modern day great....SA best ever ....

[ganeshran]

Kallis and Imran comparison (not as all-rounders but in batting/bowling and fielding)

Batting

Imran averages 37 , Kallis averages 57.3

Bowling

Imran averages 22.81, Kallis averages 32.1

Fielding

Imran averages 0.31 catches per match, Kallis averages 1.14 catches per match


Kallis is certainly a better batsman than Imran, while Imran is certainly a better bowler than Kallis. When fielding is considered, Kallis is a far better catcher and even in grounds fielding Kallis (and South Africans) in general are great fielders and have set the standards.

[Riff]

what great innings has imran ever played in his life except pads his stats as bowling all rounder which he was when he was great bowler he not even was decent batsmen who could bail his team out if it was in trouble once in his career.

and you guys are comparing him to the greatest cricketer possibly ever to have played this game.



He is most overrated cricketer in my book who never was as good as is image is, well what more can expect from people who think Afridi is greatest .

So we're determining whether or not someone's a good batsman based on how many times they have bailed the side out? :rao

You got any evidence for the point youre making?

I wasnt around when Imran played, so I cant comment, but I tell you who I have seen play :kallis

No hate, but Kallis is one of the most selfish players I have ever seen. Someone who plays for the records.

Overall, you have presented a weak case

[Riff]

mine would be

Kallis,
Sobers,
Botham,
Miller,
and Imran Imran was just useless with bat all he did was pad his stats at the end of his career .

And how on earth is Botham better than Imran? :)))

I have already proven that statistically: Imran>>>Botham

[Rana]

Statistics aside, if a comparison is t be made, it needs to be made on influence.

Imran was a better bowler no doubt, Kallis is one of the greatest Batsmen of all time.

But the question is, can Kallis inspire his team to win something meaningful? If he does so, he will have a claim to be the greatest all rounder. Imran lifted his team, Kallis has a chance this wc, his last.

Kallis has the awe with the bat, But Imran controlled the field, unlike Kallis when he bowls. Imran's presence was inspiring to his team members.

[ganeshran]

Statistics aside, if a comparison is t be made, it needs to be made on influence.

Imran was a better bowler no doubt, Kallis is one of the greatest Batsmen of all time.

But the question is, can Kallis inspire his team to win something meaningful? If he does so, he will have a claim to be the greatest all rounder. Imran lifted his team, Kallis has a chance this wc, his last.

Kallis has the awe with the bat, But Imran controlled the field, unlike Kallis when he bowls. Imran's presence was inspiring to his team members.

But my question was not about leadership qualities. There Imran scored over Kallis certainly. My question was as a player - not as a captain. Batting, bowling, fielding

[philhunter]

So we're determining whether or not someone's a good batsman based on how many times they have bailed the side out? :rao

You got any evidence for the point youre making?

I wasnt around when Imran played, so I cant comment, but I tell you who I have seen play :kallis

No hate, but Kallis is one of the most selfish players I have ever seen. Someone who plays for the records.

Overall, you have presented a weak case

Have you seen the two innings he played in this test alone , If he was not there India was winnings this match comfortably,This guy is as good batsmen as they come right up there with Tendulkar lara, Ponting..

[Rana]

But my question was not about leadership qualities. There Imran scored over Kallis certainly. My question was as a player - not as a captain. Batting, bowling, fielding

I am sure that Imran Khan was restricted to focus too much on his batting, he looked for a balance between the two.

Batting= Kallis
Bowling= Imran
Fielding= cant say, both have 'bucket hands'.

[philhunter]

And how on earth is Botham better than Imran? :)))

I have already proven that statistically: Imran>>>Botham

Imran never was as good batsman as Botham and in their prime Imran was better bowler but botham could walk into any team as batsman where Imran never could he just was lousy batsman.

[ganeshran]

I am sure that Imran Khan was restricted to focus too much on his batting, he looked for a balance between the two.

Batting= Kallis
Bowling= Imran
Fielding= cant say, both have 'bucket hands'.

Below is exact stats post for test matches


Kallis and Imran comparison (not as all-rounders but in batting/bowling and fielding)

Batting

Imran averages 37 , Kallis averages 57.3

Bowling

Imran averages 22.81, Kallis averages 32.1

Fielding

Imran averages 0.31 catches per match, Kallis averages 1.14 catches per match


Kallis is certainly a better batsman than Imran, while Imran is certainly a better bowler than Kallis. When fielding is considered, Kallis is a far better catcher and even in grounds fielding Kallis (and South Africans) in general are great fielders and have set the standards.

[s2k]

:14: great unbiased post s2k...the rest should probably learn to acquire humble grace like yourself...

:19:

Sharminda naa karo yaar

[MRSN]

Imran by a country mile.

Imran is a bowling all rounder and Kallis a Batting all rounder.Meaning Bowling is Imrans strength with Batting an addition.Similarly Batting is Kallis's strength with Bowling an Addition.

Imrans Bowling avg againist the top 4 teams of his era is under 25.Infact his bowling avgs is 21 againist WI the best team of his era.



Kallis avgs 29 vs England 33 vs Sl and 43 vs AUS so againist the 3 of Top 5 teams of his Era his batting has flopped.

Now lets come to the add ons

Imran avgs 38 with the bat,In fact he avgs above 35 againist all teams except WI.In fact he has a century againist all top 4 teams of his era.

How many 5fers have Kallis againist a top4-5 team?

To my fellow Indians,Give the due where it is due.some of you,and i guess you know that i am addressing you guys,stop trying to bring down the achievement of one of the top 3 all rounders ever.Kallis is not even in the same league.

good post :)

[Riff]

For those cricket knowledge deficients who still think Botham was better than Imran (even though I have proven that statistically Imran was the better all-rounder overall :11:)

Lets look at how the two were playing near the end of their careers. Lets say the last 5 years.

While Botham was averaging 21 with the bat and 43 with the bowl, and was clearly a shadow of his former self

Imran was averaging 62 with the bat (I can prove it, if you want :rondu) and averaged 27 with the bowl :11:

In ODIs, Botham averaged 27 with the bat and 34 with the bowl
While Imran averaged 47 with the bat and 35 with the bowl (1 win for Botham.lol)

The point is when people like Botham and Kapil (especially Kapil) were hoggin a place in the team near the end of their careers, Imran was still an important player for Pakistan and his batting in fact became alot of stronger.

[Riff]

Have you seen the two innings he played in this test alone , If he was not there India was winnings this match comfortably,This guy is as good batsmen as they come right up there with Tendulkar lara, Ponting..

You have not proven me wrong at all. How can you say that he scored back to back centuries not for himself, but for the team?

And I never said that he was not up there with Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting. In fact, he's easily better than Tendulkar :asif

[Mobashir]

Sharminda naa karo yaar

Congratulations for the first one!
Hope we will not have to wait another 2.500 post for the next one lool!

[ganeshran]

To my fellow Indians,Give the due where it is due.some of you,and i guess you know that i am addressing you guys,stop trying to bring down the achievement of one of the top 3 all rounders ever.Kallis is not even in the same league.

My point was not about comparisons at all, even though I have given statistical evidence in some posts. Imran Khan is one of the greatest all rounders of the subcontinent and I am proud of him too. Statistically Kallis did better than Imran, but that doesnt prove any point

But reverse this thread and compare Kallis and Tendulkar or maybe Kallis and Aravinda De Silva, and you will have fans baying at the throat of OP and Kallis supporters. Then many here who supported Kallis would be dissing him and many detractors would be singing his praise.

I just wanted to show how emotional we are about cricket and why Indian fans react like that when there are comparison threads about Sachin.

[Robert]

That's a very Indian-esque approach to take, counting the number of centuries. Lets not forget that he did that over 108 tests and still averaged 33 with the bat.

Actually 102, and he shouldn't have played the last 25 of those because he was no longer up to it. They kept picking Sir Ian after numerous injuries had worn him down.

My point is that purely as a batter, he compared very favourably with two England middle-order team-mates who had long careers.

Sir Ian frustrated because he was quite capable of turning himself into a Kallis-type player over the last third of his career - a reliable #5 batter averaging over 40, superlative catcher and fourth seamer. He had all the tools - lavish batting talent, excellent technique against pace and spin - but he wouldn't put the effort into making it work.

[Riff]

Imran never was as good batsman as Botham and in their prime Imran was better bowler but botham could walk into any team as batsman where Imran never could he just was lousy batsman.

lol at Botham walking into any team as a batsman alone. I think WI would have a thing to say about that. And whats with this prime concept, we're gonna act like comparing players overall in their careers isnt a more efficient way? :94:

[Robert]

FWIW, here's my all-rounder table:

1. Sobers
2. Imran
3. Miller
4. Botham
5. Kapil Dev
6. Kallis

[s2k]

Congratulations for the first one!
Hope we will not have to wait another 2.500 post for the next one lool!

i have had a few of those bhai......

[s2k]

FWIW, here's my all-rounder table:

1. Sobers
2. Imran
3. Miller
4. Botham
5. Kapil Dev
6. Kallis

Botham and Kapil are pretty much equal.Rest i agree with your list.

[Mobashir]

i have had a few of those bhai......

That was a joke!

[s2k]

That was a joke!

:afridi

[Jo_Don]

A lot of you are comparing them wrongly.
Kallis is a batting all rounder and Imran a bowling all rounder so the comparisons should be as following :
-Kallis batting vs Imran bowling
-Kallis bowling vs Imran Batting.

Kallis's batting is superb, exellent, one of the best ever as is Imran's bowling... I think Imran bowling is closer tho be the best ever bowler than Kallis is to be the best ever batsmen(post world war II). But that is a very close call.

Same i rate Imran's batting a litle better than Kallis's bowling.

So for me it's Imran Khan better than Kallis.
And if you had a field full of Imran Khans fielding, would his bowling still be so great against Kallis? Likewise if you had a team full of Kallis' fielding, would his bowling be so poor against Imran?

Fielding is just as important as batting or bowling :) Kallis beats Imran in 2 out of the 3 disciplines, and as such I'd have to say Kallis.

[Mobashir]

And if you had a field full of Imran Khans fielding, would his bowling still be so great against Kallis? Likewise if you had a team full of Kallis' fielding, would his bowling be so poor against Imran?

Fielding is just as important as batting or bowling :) Kallis beats Imran in 2 out of the 3 disciplines, and as such I'd have to say Kallis.

I disagree with your logic.
For example Shahid Afridi, Bravo, Andrew Flintoff etc... beat Sachin Tendulkar in 2 out of 3 disciplines, but that doesn't make them better circketer than Sachin.

[Jo_Don]

I disagree with your logic.
For example Shahid Afridi, Bravo, Andrew Flintoff etc... beat Sachin Tendulkar in 2 out of 3 disciplines, but that doesn't make them better circketer than Sachin.

Well we're comparing 2 proper all rounders against each other here - not an all rounder against a great batsman who can turn the arm a bit.

[Riff]

I disagree with your logic.
For example Shahid Afridi, Bravo, Andrew Flintoff etc... beat Sachin Tendulkar in 2 out of 3 disciplines, but that doesn't make them better circketer than Sachin.

Good point :asif

[Desi]

Troll thread IMO. Look at Kallis' stats vs the top 4-5 teams and call him a bowler (dare ya). You can't compare an all rounder with a batsman who has inflated bowling statistics.

[ganeshran]

Troll thread IMO. Look at Kallis' stats vs the top 4-5 teams and call him a bowler (dare ya). You can't compare an all rounder with a batsman who has inflated bowling statistics.

Not troll thread. My reasons are below


My point was not about comparisons at all, even though I have given statistical evidence in some posts. Imran Khan is one of the greatest all rounders of the subcontinent and I am proud of him too. Statistically Kallis did better than Imran, but that doesnt prove any point

But reverse this thread and compare Kallis and Tendulkar or maybe Kallis and Aravinda De Silva, and you will have fans baying at the throat of OP and Kallis supporters. Then many here who supported Kallis would be dissing him and many detractors would be singing his praise.

I just wanted to show how emotional we are about cricket and why Indian fans react like that when there are comparison threads about Sachin.

[Riff]

Troll thread IMO. Look at Kallis' stats vs the top 4-5 teams and call him a bowler (dare ya). You can't compare an all rounder with a batsman who has inflated bowling statistics.

This.

So to summarize this thread. We can say

Imran's batting>>>Kallis's bowling

[jeetu]

Its difficult to compare Kallis and Imran because they are different kinds of alrounders.

By stats
Imran/Keith Miller - best bowling allrounder.
Sobers/Kallis - best batting allrounders.

For test i'll always go for Batting alrounder as 5th bowler bowls far less than top 4.

[UmarAkmals-fan]

Imran by a country mile.

Imran is a bowling all rounder and Kallis a Batting all rounder.Meaning Bowling is Imrans strength with Batting an addition.Similarly Batting is Kallis's strength with Bowling an Addition.

Imrans Bowling avg againist the top 4 teams of his era is under 25.Infact his bowling avgs is 21 againist WI the best team of his era.



Kallis avgs 29 vs England 33 vs Sl and 43 vs AUS so againist the 3 of Top 5 teams of his Era his batting has flopped.

Now lets come to the add ons

Imran avgs 38 with the bat,In fact he avgs above 35 againist all teams except WI.In fact he has a century againist all top 4 teams of his era.

How many 5fers have Kallis againist a top4-5 team?

To my fellow Indians,Give the due where it is due.some of you,and i guess you know that i am addressing you guys,stop trying to bring down the achievement of one of the top 3 all rounders ever.Kallis is not even in the same league.
+1 POTW very unbiased great post
Imran never was as good batsman as Botham and in their prime Imran was better bowler but botham could walk into any team as batsman where Imran never could he just was lousy batsman.

about 10 ppl have posted imran vs botham stats yet u rely on ur hatred for imran coz he is a pakistani ..

imran khan beats botham both in batting and bowling department ..plz read the stats

Imran averaged 37 with the bat and 22 with the bowl
Botham averaged 33 with the bat and 28 with the bowl

In ODIs


Imran averaged 33 with the bat and 26 with the bowl
Botham averaged 23 with the bat and 28 with the bowl

and as for imran being a lousy batsmen ..do u know in those times every team had world class bowlers which are aliean today except steyn ..average of 37 equals at least average of 50 in now a days cricket


learn to appreciate and acknowledge talent from where ever it might be instend of being biased coz of hatred ...

[ganeshran]

This.

So to summarize this thread. We can say

Imran's batting>>>Kallis's bowling

Nope that would be like a comparison done between apples and oranges.

A more acceptable answer could be that they are both greats for their own teams and its not possible to compare the two.

[ganeshran]

learn to appreciate and acknowledge talent from where ever it might be instend of being biased coz of hatred ...

My message is exactly same for some others on these forums.

[Riff]

+1 POTW very unbiased great post


about 10 ppl have posted imran vs botham stats yet u rely on ur hatred for imran coz he is a pakistani ..

imran khan beats botham both in batting and bowling department ..plz read the stats



and as for imran being a lousy batsmen ..do u know in those times every team had world class bowlers which are aliean today except steyn ..average of 37 equals at least average of 50 in now a days cricket


learn to appreciate and acknowledge talent from where ever it might be instend of being biased coz of hatred ...

I think he's angry because people had made a thread comparing Kallis and Tendulkar :asif

But dont worry, I bodied him with the stats :11:

[soton]

Nope that would be like a comparison done between apples and oranges.

A more acceptable answer could be that they are both greats for their own teams and its not possible to compare the two.

you dont need to be partial to imran just because you are on pakistani forum just say the truth which is kallis is 10 times better allrounder than imran but imran had great cricketing brain who inspired below average team to world cup glory.

[Savak]

Imran beats Kallis in personality and charisma. Imran is well known around the world, Kallis not too sure outside the cricket playing nations.

But Kallis only beats Imran as a batsman and that's it. Fielding shouldnt be considered because Imran never fielded in the slips unlike Kallis and hence didnt have the same catching opportunities that Kallis had.

Imran had to deal with the captaincy unlike Kallis who ran away from the captaincy whenver it was offered to him.

Heck Imran was comfortably the best allrounder in the Botham, Hadlee, Kapil Dev category. I wouldnt read too much into Hadlee's bowling average because a vast vast majority of his wickets came in England, New Zealand, Australia and he has not performed in the subcontinent enough. Same is the case for Ian Botham. Kapil Dev was not blessed with Imran's pace and hence his bowling average suffered as a result. So Imran's points are higher as a bowler.

As a batsman, Imran was the most responsible of the lot, he always put a huge price on his wicket and unlike the other 3 always had a stomach for a fight. Finally as a captain Imran beats them by a century.

[ganeshran]

you dont need to be partial to imran just because you are on pakistani forum just say the truth which is kallis is 10 times better allrounder than imran but imran had great cricketing brain who inspired below average team to world cup glory.

I am not being partial to him. I would say the same thing on any other cricketing forum or orkut community. He is truly a great player.

I would say the same thing for Kallis and Tendulkar too. They are greats in their own rights. you can pick many statistical holes in all three of their careers (made records against minnows, FTB, low batting average, bad fielding etc), but that doesnt decrease their contributions to the game.

[Savak]

kallis is 10 times better allrounder than imran

:)) no he is not, in fact he is not even fit enough to shine Imran's shoes. He cannot reach Imran's stature, period.

imran had great cricketing brain who inspired below average team to world cup glory.

:37::37:

Naturally, tell us something we dont know

[ganeshran]

Imran beats Kallis in personality and charisma. Imran is well known around the world, Kallis not too sure outside the cricket playing nations.

But Kallis only beats Imran as a batsman and that's it. Fielding shouldnt be considered because Imran never fielded in the slips unlike Kallis and hence didnt have the same catching opportunities that Kallis had.

Imran had to deal with the captaincy unlike Kallis who ran away from the captaincy whenver it was offered to him.

Heck Imran was comfortably the best allrounder in the Botham, Hadlee, Kapil Dev category. I wouldnt read too much into Hadlee's bowling average because a vast vast majority of his wickets came in England, New Zealand, Australia and he has not performed in the subcontinent enough. Same is the case for Ian Botham. Kapil Dev was not blessed with Imran's pace and hence his bowling average suffered as a result. So Imran's points are higher as a bowler.

As a batsman, Imran was the most responsible of the lot, he always put a huge price on his wicket and unlike the other 3 always had a stomach for a fight. Finally as a captain Imran beats them by a century.

You cannot selectively ignore statistics which dont suit the argument you are making.

[Savak]

You cannot selectively ignore statistics which dont suit the argument you are making.

Stats do not tell and cover everything. There are some things u can only guage by just watching the players in question and observing the context, environment in which they played.

Why watch the game if we are going to base every judgement just on Statistics alone

[UmarAkmals-fan]

My message is exactly same for some others on these forums.
true ..i as a hard core pak fan apna hosho awaz ma manta hu ka sachin is the best batsmen ever :))
I think he's angry because people had made a thread comparing Kallis and Tendulkar :asif

But dont worry, I bodied him with the stats :11:

that thread is a mismatch ...kallis is not were the class of sachin

[ganeshran]

Stats do not tell and cover everything. There are some things u can only guage by just watching the players in question and observing the context, environment in which they played.

Why watch the game if we are going to base every judgement just on Statistics alone

That is what I think too, But I am against selective use of statistics or facts to make a point.

I am not being partial to him. I would say the same thing on any other cricketing forum or orkut community. He is truly a great player.

I would say the same thing for Kallis and Tendulkar too. They are greats in their own rights. you can pick many statistical holes in all three of their careers (made records against minnows, FTB, low batting average, bad fielding etc), but that doesnt decrease their contributions to the game.

[soton]

:)) no he is not, in fact he is not even fit enough to shine Imran's shoes. He cannot reach Imran's stature, period.



Imran might be best cricketer for Pakistani fan but that doesn't change the fact that kallis is far better all-rounder than him.

[philhunter]

If Imran was so great name one great innings Imran Khan has played in his life answer is none, so how does he become a great all allrounder.

This batting stats all are throwing 37 avg or 30 doesnt make any difference, what you expect from a no7 batsmen is impact innings , he has none.

[Savak]

Imran might be best cricketer for Pakistani fan but that doesn't change the fact that likes of kallis are far better all-rounder than him.

Well this was an Indian thread, u guys had the platform to prove it (which nobody has). All i have seen are rants and repititions but nothing compelling to prove Kallis's superiority over Imran.

s2k's response was the most honest and unbiased response by an Indian poster here.

[Savak]

If Imran was so great name one great innings Imran Khan has played in his life answer is none, so how does he become a great all allrounder.

This batting stats all are throwing 37 avg or 30 doesnt make any difference, what you expect from a no7 batsmen is impact innings , he has none.

136 vs Australia 1989 Addelaide oval, saved the match for Pakistan. A century against a powerful West Indies team in 1980.

Has Kallis ever taken 88 test wickets in a single calendar year like Imran has? Has Kallis ever demolished a team consistently on a flat/graveyard of pitches, has kallis ever been responsible for spearheading the bowling attack of his team for a vast majority of his career?

Has Kallis ever led his team for ten long years thus risking his own personal performances and averages? Has Kallis ever groomed players in his side so that they could in future serve the country for generations to come?

No, so how does he become a great allrounder let alone be mentioned alongside Imran?

[s2k]

true ..i as a hard core pak fan apna hosho awaz ma manta hu ka sachin is the best batsmen ever :))


that thread is a mismatch ...kallis is not were the class of sachin

Biriyani khaoge ya gulabjamun?

[ganeshran]

Well this was an Indian thread, u guys had the platform to prove it (which nobody has). All i have seen are rants and repititions but nothing compelling to prove Kallis's superiority over Imran.

Agreed that many posts were provocative and repetitive responses, but go to any other comparison threads and you will see the same thing

Case in point :-

:)) no he is not, in fact he is not even fit enough to shine Imran's shoes. He cannot reach Imran's stature, period.



s2k's response was the most honest and unbiased response by an Indian poster here.

Thats because it suited what you have believed to be true all along. Not saying that s2k's post wasnt honest, but it only seemed honest and unbiased because it was what you believed all along

[Savak]

Anyways, we could go on forever. Time to move on.

[soton]

Well this was an Indian thread, u guys had the platform to prove it (which nobody has). All i have seen are rants and repititions but nothing compelling to prove Kallis's superiority over Imran.

s2k's response was the most honest and unbiased response by an Indian poster here.

you are having a laugh kallis who has scored over 10k in both forms and taken 250 + wickets in both forms is somehow not better than imran just because he was not born pakistan explains your bigotry .

[s2k]

Well this was an Indian thread, u guys had the platform to prove it (which nobody has). All i have seen are rants and repititions but nothing compelling to prove Kallis's superiority over Imran.

s2k's response was the most honest and unbiased response by an Indian poster here.

Agreed that many posts were provocative and repetitive responses, but go to any other comparison threads and you will see the same thing

Case in point :-






Thats because it suited what you have believed to be true all along. Not saying that s2k's post wasnt honest, but it only seemed honest and unbiased because it was what you believed all along

My post was what i believed.

[Prince_Pathan]

Sharminda naa karo yaar

being honest man...the other posts arent worth replying to because they are blatantly biased lol...

[Robert]

If Imran was so great name one great innings Imran Khan has played in his life answer is none, so how does he become a great all allrounder.

This batting stats all are throwing 37 avg or 30 doesnt make any difference, what you expect from a no7 batsmen is impact innings , he has none.

Here is 123 out of 369 against Croft-Clarke-Marshall-Garner....

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63272.html

[ganeshran]

Here is 123 out of 369 against Croft-Clarke-Marshall-Garner....

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63272.html

+1. solid contribution in that match

[gangstathe13th]

Imran - Because of his better bowling in test matches and his leadership.

[UmarAkmals-fan]

Biriyani khaoge ya gulabjamun?

chai will do :)) :ajmal

[Abidi110]

you dont need to be partial to imran just because you are on pakistani forum just say the truth which is kallis is 10 times better allrounder than imran but imran had great cricketing brain who inspired below average team to world cup glory.


You need to be partial to Kallis coz Imran is a Pakistani!

Sounds more like a Sauten really.

[Abidi110]

you are having a laugh kallis who has scored over 10k in both forms and taken 250 + wickets in both forms is somehow not better than imran just because he was not born pakistan explains your bigotry .


Going by same logic,Kapil Dev was ten time greater AR than Sobers coz kapil took far greater wkts and scored far greater runs than Sobers ever did.

[purplehaze]

Imran by a country mile.

Imran is a bowling all rounder and Kallis a Batting all rounder.Meaning Bowling is Imrans strength with Batting an addition.Similarly Batting is Kallis's strength with Bowling an Addition.

Imrans Bowling avg againist the top 4 teams of his era is under 25.Infact his bowling avgs is 21 againist WI the best team of his era.



Kallis avgs 29 vs England 33 vs Sl and 43 vs AUS so againist the 3 of Top 5 teams of his Era his batting has flopped.

Now lets come to the add ons

Imran avgs 38 with the bat,In fact he avgs above 35 againist all teams except WI.In fact he has a century againist all top 4 teams of his era.

How many 5fers have Kallis againist a top4-5 team?

To my fellow Indians,Give the due where it is due.some of you,and i guess you know that i am addressing you guys,stop trying to bring down the achievement of one of the top 3 all rounders ever.Kallis is not even in the same league.

...and who has won more matches for his country? As I already mentioned, Imran is nowhere even CLOSE to Kallis. Yes, Imran has impressive statistics but that only makes him looks like selfish someone :sachin who plays only for Individual records.

[Robert]

...and what who has won more matches for his country?

Imran. Look at all his 10fer and 5fer hauls and the effect those had on the matches he played.

[purplehaze]

Imran. Look at all his 10fer and 5fer hauls and the effect those had on the matches he played.

But the stats in post # 127 in this thread says something else.

[yahyah86]

This is ridiculous...to compare Imran khan to Khallis is like comparing apples and oranges. The two played in different era's Imran played when there was only 5 or 6 very good teams, where as khallis has played in an era of 1-2 really good teams 1 of them being his own and 1 other really good team. The quality of bowling in the last 10 years cannot be compared to the 90's or the 80's or even the 70's. those who have seen Imran play in his peak will tell you that Sachin is not in his class. Imran was a winner Khallis hasn't proven to be one yet nor has sachin. and at the end of the day its about how your team performs rather than the individual. Imran was not only great, he made everyone around him better. not sure you can say that about too many players these days. Imran Khan was the Don Bradman of the modern era, the greatest test match bowler of all time (this includes Wasim) and most importantly a winner

[ganeshran]

You need to be partial to Kallis coz Imran is a Pakistani!

Sounds more like a Sauten really.

Go to the Kallis vs Sachin thread (not the statistical comparison thread) and read some of the responses there.

Everyone there is being partial to Kallis just because Sachin is an Indian.

[Robert]

But the stats in post # 127 in this thread says something else.

Those stats are misleading.

Firstly, Kallis the bowler didn't win matches against good sides: Donald and Pollock and Steyn and Ntini won them.

Secondly, Kallis is a minnowbasher with the ball. Imran didn't bowl against minnows, he only faced good teams.

[1137moiz]

Sobers averaged 34 with the ball in a bowler's era. Nuff said there. Kallis is a very good support bowler, occasionally crap but generally dependable

[purplehaze]

Those stats are misleading.

Firstly, Kallis the bowler didn't win matches against good sides: Donald and Pollock and Steyn and Ntini won them.

Secondly, Kallis is a minnowbasher with the ball. Imran didn't bowl against minnows, he only faced good teams.

If you find those stats misleading and want to takeoff half from Kallis' credit - Kallis is still a winner. I'm not sure in how much detail you saw those stats there's a daylight difference between the numbers. Forget Kallis, just look at win percentage of Imran alone 20-some% with bat and 40-some% with bowl - is that what you call a world class standard?

[Abidi110]

Win percentage...LOL Hadlee was a world class AR , but i'm sure the win percentage of his matches would have been extremely poor as he played for a weak team, but i have never ever seen any cricket pundit discredit Hadlee for his team's under achievements.

[Abidi110]

Go to the Kallis vs Sachin thread (not the statistical comparison thread) and read some of the responses there.

Everyone there is being partial to Kallis just because Sachin is an Indian.

I don't need to, if i had posted something offensive there then you can point out that to me.

There is no justification for acting like troll, coz some other members happen to have been doing such in thing in other threads.

[ganeshran]

I don't need to, if i had posted something offensive there then you can point out that to me.

There is no justification for acting like troll, coz some other members happen to have been doing such in thing in other threads.

I am not acting like a troll, you can read my posts on this or any other thread, and see if I have posted any subjective comments biased against Imran Khan or Kallis

[Robert]

If you find those stats misleading and want to takeoff half from Kallis' credit - Kallis is still a winner. I'm not sure in how much detail you saw those stats there's a daylight difference between the numbers. Forget Kallis, just look at win percentage of Imran alone 20-some% with bat and 40-some% with bowl - is that what you call a world class standard?

You seem to be suggesting that Kallis and Imran was individually responsible for winning test matches. But cricket is a team sport. One support bowler such as Kallis is not going to win matches by himself, but two very good opening bowlers such as Donald and Pollock supported by Kallis will.

[sahmad]

Ok I feel this comparison is unfair to both Kallis and Imran. If I had to pick one over the other I would pick Imran only because to win test matches you need wickets more than you need runs. Imran scored ten runs less than Kallis? But he got people out at 20runs per wicket, doesn't that make up for everything!!!! Imran had the ability to lead, to inspire, the belief and ability to win from jaws of defeat. Further Kallis is a pretty OK bowler, he can spearhead of the Indian pace attack, but he just ain't as good a baller to be in the Australian, Pakistani, English, or the West Indian team. Imran in his last decade, even after being out for two years with a shin injury at the peak of his career came back to average 50+ with the bat and under 20 with the ball. How many ballers you know of that can do that? He gave Pakistani cricket the aggression which it had previously lacked, won us the world cup, and gave the world of cricket bowlers like Waqar and Wasim. There are somethings that you can not put into numbers, and Imran's greatness is one such thing.

Having said all that Kallis probably won't make it to the all time world XI as an all rounder but on pure batting abilities he should replace Tendulkar in the all time world XI. And here is why..

Kallis and Tendulkar's average since 1999: 62.44 and 58 respectively.
Kallis and Tendulkar's average w/o Zimbabwe and Bangladesh: 59.47 and 52.8 respectively.
Kallis and Tendulkar's average in second innings: 60.5 and Tendulkar not even in top ten.

[purplehaze]

You seem to be suggesting that Kallis and Imran was individually responsible for winning test matches. But cricket is a team sport. One support bowler such as Kallis is not going to win matches by himself, but two very good opening bowlers such as Donald and Pollock supported by Kallis will.

Well, my post is more for people out here who believe unless an individual win matches for his team stats are useless - an argument consistently thrown over certain players. My post is more for them not for someone who understands cricket is team game and so the results. :19:

[Abidi110]

I am not acting like a troll, you can read my posts on this or any other thread, and see if I have posted any subjective comments biased against Imran Khan or Kallis

I never said you ever did, i was referring to some of ur countrymen.

Cheers mate!

[Abidi110]

This has become a useless thread, some Indian trolls are bashing Imran coz they are upset at some Pakistanis who probably bashed Sachin in some other threads. Comments like "my comments are for those ppl, and not for those who understand cricket" are hilarious.