Should Women be Allowed to Divorce

[Schiller]

As I understand it, in Islam man can do it with more ease than a woman who has to go thru court and all that jazz. Should women also be allowed the same freedom (when they get it, it becomes insanity) that men have?

you know what I wuld say so I wont say it :-D

[Geordie Ahmed]

Are you trying to create some controversy????

I like it :oD :oD :oD

Re the question, im not too sure. i think divorce is way too common nowadays. with women if its there they will use it (probably more cos of curiosity) so i reckon they should not have that option!
Men are far more sensible so we should make the decions.

[Annie]

do u know how conveniently people cross off whole sections on nikkah nammas depriving a woman of her right to divorce

and many people don't even know about it since it has for ages now been getting crossed off without any attention...

good thing is that with awareness it is being looked into and more people are looking to make sure that on the nikkah namma, that section is properly marked to allow the woman the right to divorce just as Islam intends it...

It is harder for women to get a divorce, but with time I think things are getting easier

it's a man's world and so this isn't surprising that they make it harder for women, but it isn't Islam to deny women of their right to divorce...

[Schiller]

:-D :oD

I agree with your sentiment and it goes deeper than that you see. women are not trustworthy to be given such responsibility

[Officer Barbrady]

:oD

[Geordie Ahmed]

:oD :oD :oD :oD

i await the fireworks :-D

[Schiller]

"do u know how conveniently people cross off whole sections on nikkah nammas depriving a woman of her right to divorce "

and a good thing too, but again before I say anything that might be deemed decent, what do you mean by right to divorce.

"good thing is that with awareness it is being looked into and more people are looking to make sure that on the nikkah namma, that section is properly marked to allow the woman the right to divorce just as Islam intends it... "


In Islam, i believe the woman has to get a 'khula' which i believe means gooing thru court to get it. says a lot about women really and one would be wise to listen to it.

how could you give these impuslive impetuous creatures the right to do anything drastic?

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

divorce under what circumstances?

[Schiller]

you had to complicate issues

men really

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

complicate? who me - am just trying to get a more specific question lol rather than open ended where u could fall into trap - lol

[Schiller]

youll never make a good woman really. learn from amjid and annie a few things

[Officer Barbrady]

Schiller, women reminds me...look after Mona. She has been crying very often lately (if the crying emotion means you are actually crying?)

[Schiller]

women remind you of mona? surely thats love?? ;-D

the crying emotion is very much like their real life tear - simply meant to bewilder us. we always think, maybe she is crying, maybe she did get hurt, the truth though is that later they go onto their female freinds and say, what a delightful fool he is, again thought i was hurt. such a sensitive human really Christine

:-D

[Officer Barbrady]

:oD :oD

[Oxy]

Make divorce easy for woman- and then send them to me!

[Geordie Ahmed]

Make divorce easy for woman- and then send them to me!

Sending them to you would make them return to their Husbands very quickly :-D :-D

[Schiller]

or make same gender preferring out of them altogehter ga :-D

[sajjad]

Women are not capable of making decision as important as marriage and divorce. theyr job is restricted to listening to thiers gaters and husbands and doing what theyr told. its best for them and dont we men know whats best for women. ofcourse we do!

[Officer Barbrady]

Women are not capable of making decision as important as marriage and divorce. theyr job is restricted to listening to thiers gaters and husbands and doing what theyr told. its best for them and dont we men know whats best for women. ofcourse we do!


:oD

[catwoman]

What's the difference between a man divorcing and a woman divorcing in Islam? Don't they just go to court? |-K

I don't see anything wrong with divorces as long as there is a practical reason behind them.

[Schiller]

in Islam

the woman has to go to court to get it, the man I believe can pronounce it and be done with it

[Officer Barbrady]

No the woman has to go to court, the guy says talaak talaak talaak (three times) and I think its over?

At least that's what happens in Urdu plays.

[sajjad]

divorce is the doing of the devil. it shud not happen in society. those who do it, shud be punished.
what do u guys think is the punishment for divorce.

[Schiller]

i believe that is the islamic one, though dispute is there as to how many times the man has to say it. also I think in shias, its different a bit

Sufi, what do you say??

[catwoman]

women remind you of mona? surely thats love?? ;-D

the crying emotion is very much like their real life tear - simply meant to bewilder us. we always think, maybe she is crying, maybe she did get hurt, the truth though is that later they go onto their female freinds and say, what a delightful fool he is, again thought i was hurt. such a sensitive human really Christine

:-D

|-S |-S . You don't even believe me when I'm hurt |-S |-S

[Schiller]

Now heres a good example Marooned,

the first four crying smileys were for us

the last tongue one was for Christine ;-D

[sajjad]

OKAY, seriously speaking
actually in the true essence of islam

a man cannot say it 3 times and it be over
he does have to say it 3 times

but there is supposed to be gaps between the 3 times

6 months i believe between the first time and the second time and then the couple are seperated for 2 years and if they still feel they shud divorce they do so

[Schiller]

I think thats what the dispute is about

[catwoman]

in Islam

the woman has to go to court to get it, the man I believe can pronounce it and be done with it

That's unfair though! :o^

Women should have equal rights when it comes to divorce atleast |-F

[sajjad]

its a man's world...!

[catwoman]

Now heres a good example Marooned,

the first four crying smileys were for us

the last tongue one was for Christine ;-D

Tongue? What tongue? |-S |-S |-S

[Schiller]

hell no and this is not my routine promising sexism speaking. I think this is the way it should be.

the last thing you want is woman having the rt to divorce the way a man does.

[sajjad]

yeah imagine these women

always uncertain, never know what theyr gonna do. if they had the right. itd be chaotic!

[catwoman]

hell no and this is not my routine promising sexism speaking. I think this is the way it should be.

the last thing you want is woman having the rt to divorce the way a man does.

Both should have equal rights when it comes to divorce though. What if the husband just says it 3 divorce times out of anger? Will it be a divorce then? It's best to go to court for a divorce in my opinion.

[Officer Barbrady]

Now heres a good example Marooned,

the first four crying smileys were for us

the last tongue one was for Christine ;-D

:oD :oD

On the divorce thingy, if the woman has the right (at the time of Nikaah) then she doesn't have to go to court?

[Oxy]

A neigbour of mine (Muslim-but messed up in the head) recently divorced his wife.

But he refused to leave the house-eventually he did.

Now he claims he didnt do it (he did), and wants to pretend nothing happened.

For them to get back together, both have to go through 'Halallah' which means they have to remarry, have full marriage life with their new spouses and then only after divocing them, can they remarry.

What a great system- the ultimate deterrant to divorce.

[Officer Barbrady]

Both should have equal rights when it comes to divorce though. What if the husband just says it 3 divorce times out of anger? Will it be a divorce then? It's best to go to court for a divorce in my opinion.


Ah that is exactly what happened in an Urdu Drama I was forced to watch long ago. She needed to remarry someone else before they could get back together from what I remember.

[sajjad]

hell no and this is not my routine promising sexism speaking. I think this is the way it should be.

the last thing you want is woman having the rt to divorce the way a man does.

Both should have equal rights when it comes to divorce though. What if the husband just says it 3 divorce times out of anger? Will it be a divorce then? It's best to go to court for a divorce in my opinion.

he cannot say it out of anger, read my post above. theres supposed to be gaps between the times. if he is angry after 2.5 years of saying it...then i guess theres something wrong...aint it!

[Geordie Ahmed]

hell no and this is not my routine promising sexism speaking. I think this is the way it should be.

the last thing you want is woman having the rt to divorce the way a man does.

Both should have equal rights when it comes to divorce though. What if the husband just says it 3 divorce times out of anger? Will it be a divorce then? It's best to go to court for a divorce in my opinion.

BUT when they go to courts a male (judge) MUST be in charge :-D :-D

[catwoman]

hell no and this is not my routine promising sexism speaking. I think this is the way it should be.

the last thing you want is woman having the rt to divorce the way a man does.

Both should have equal rights when it comes to divorce though. What if the husband just says it 3 divorce times out of anger? Will it be a divorce then? It's best to go to court for a divorce in my opinion.

BUT when they go to courts a male (judge) MUST be in charge :-D :-D

Doesn't matter whether the judge is male or female as long as he accepts bribes :-p

[Officer Barbrady]

A neigbour of mine (Muslim-but messed up in the head) recently divorced his wife.

But he refused to leave the house-eventually he did.

Now he claims he didnt do it (he did), and wants to pretend nothing happened.



:oD :oD

[catwoman]

If women don't have the same divorce rights, they can always walk out ;-p

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

women do get equal rights in Islam - ppl take the obvious stance - oh because they ahve to cover up - they arent given equal rights. Well how about looking at it from a different perspective - they aint judged on their looks but intellect - aint seen as possessions or like a piece of meat - i feel this is a huge equal right for women - judged on by differnt things which i feel is understated in today's society

[sajjad]

women do get equal rights in Islam - ppl take the obvious stance - oh because they ahve to cover up - they arent given equal rights. Well how about looking at it from a different perspective - they aint judged on their looks but intellect - aint seen as possessions or like a piece of meat - i feel this is a huge equal right for women - judged on by differnt things which i feel is understated in today's society

Sajjad. Keep it decent. No more references to beating/burning woman will be tolerated!

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

what are u on about sajjad? - what is wrong with you

[sajjad]

man, i have the power of knowledge now.. seems like u r still in the pit of darkness..

ur comments make that clear....seems like a witch(woman) has cast a speel on u....come out of it boy before its too late

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

knowledge? what are u on about - am trying to gain more at university - am hoping to learn even more about islam after uni and become more knowledgable about it- am glad if u have knowledge - but plz share it - but dont mask truths - am sure women arent treated like that - have u had a bad experience with a woman in past?

[Officer Barbrady]

:oD :oD WIY I don't think he is serious

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

i hope not marooned - coz words like that were beginning to freak me out\!

[Oxy]

Possibly an apt moment to get back onto the topic?

[Officer Barbrady]

boy the iron hand in the velvet glove :oD :oD

I'm not sure what I think. Probably .. YES!

[Oxy]

...more of an iron 'thappar'

[catwoman]

women do get equal rights in Islam - ppl take the obvious stance - oh because they ahve to cover up - they arent given equal rights. Well how about looking at it from a different perspective - they aint judged on their looks but intellect - aint seen as possessions or like a piece of meat - i feel this is a huge equal right for women - judged on by differnt things which i feel is understated in today's society

In many aspects in Islam, women don't have equal rights especially when it comes to clothing.

[sajjad]

knowledge? what are u on about - am trying to gain more at university - am hoping to learn even more about islam after uni and become more knowledgable about it- am glad if u have knowledge - but plz share it - but dont mask truths - am sure women arent treated like that - have u had a bad experience with a woman in past?

the ppl in univ are all liars and infidels. they will guide u astray. u have to learn from the white light i.e. from the truth. dont be lead astray by these infidels. they have to be killed!

[Oxy]

Looks like A.bu H'am.za is posting tonight!

[sajjad]

Looks like A.bu H'am.za is posting tonight!


who?

[Officer Barbrady]

Looks like A.bu H'am.za is posting tonight!

:oD

[Oxy]

Ab.bu H'am.za...the dude with the ho.ok who calls everything that moves an 'infidel'!

Looks like A.bu H'am.za is posting tonight!

:oD:oD:oD:oD

[catwoman]

Huh? |-K

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

dude - all im doing is learning about anatomy and physiology etc - so i can help ppl when i qualify - dont tell me it is haram to help ppl.


Mona but what about that point it stems from that point of view?

[sajjad]

learning about anatomy.....the infidels have gotten to u!

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[catwoman]

dude - all im doing is learning about anatomy and physiology etc - so i can help ppl when i qualify - dont tell me it is haram to help ppl.


Mona but what about that point it stems from that point of view?

Which point of view? |-K

[Officer Barbrady]

:oD :oD

this is one retarded thread

[catwoman]

:oD :oD

this is one retarded thread

The thread starter is to be blamed! :-p

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

LOL

[Fessal]

divorce is the doing of the devil. it shud not happen in society. those who do it, shud be punished.
what do u guys think is the punishment for divorce.

True, but if a lady asks dosent live with husband of her own will, with no fault of husband because she wants to marry elsewhere etc. And, if the lady asks husband directly or through family for divorce then husband should give it. The reason being that in Islam no man should tie a woman down in Nikkah forcefully. The man should free the woman.

[sajjad]

that is wrong....women can never leave
she shud stay married or die...kitchen stove is ideal i have obseved from newspaper reports

[Fessal]

Women are not capable of making decision as important as marriage and divorce. theyr job is restricted to listening to thiers gaters and husbands and doing what theyr told. its best for them and dont we men know whats best for women. ofcourse we do!

I hope you are joking as woman are just as capable as men. Islam give woman their rights but sadly society dosent always. Fair enougn there are limits because men and women are not the same and physically differents o cant be completley equal.

What i find bemusing is some women asking for equal rights in everything yet if some man does a traditional woman thing they will jump on him and say this is for woman. ALso an example is a woman hitting a man is given less importance and notice if any to say the other way round: i.e man hitting woman.

[catwoman]

The man should free the woman? Is she a bird trapped in a cage?

[sajjad]

Women are not capable of making decision as important as marriage and divorce. theyr job is restricted to listening to thiers gaters and husbands and doing what theyr told. its best for them and dont we men know whats best for women. ofcourse we do!

I hope you are joking as woman are just as capable as men. Islam give woman their rights but sadly society dosent always. Fair enougn there are limits because men and women are not the same and physically differents o cant be completley equal.

What i find bemusing is some women asking for equal rights in everything yet if some man does a traditional woman thing they will jump on him and say this is for woman. ALso an example is a woman hitting a man is given less importance and notice if any to say the other way round: i.e man hitting woman.

Yes, women shud not ask for equal rights n be jumping on men for it. although if they jump on my schlong...i will not mind...i can spank her and that is fine. woman spanking man....well only when im in the mood

[Fessal]

LOL. I dont mean free literally but yes free her from the 'burden' of Nikkah so she can marry where she wants again under Islamic law. As you know woman cant marry 2 two people at the same time under Islamic law.

Even men can't just like that although there is a misconception that they can. Men can be married to more than than one woman at a the sam time (i think upto 3 ) BUT not just like that. They can ONLY under ceartain conditions and necessities which they must strictly meet and keep to.They cant have 3 wifes at once just for their own pleasure. Although I wish we could..lol.

[sajjad]

she has to take the BURDEN OF NIKKAH on her shoulders forever. she cannout put it down. unless she dies. then its okay probably.

we can have 4 wives at one time not 3
and if we divroce one we can marry another.....

[Fessal]

You must be joking.
I cant joke like that about women because not only are wifes women so are mothers, daughters and sisters. Women deserve a lot of respect and in some regards more than men. Islam gives woman high status in the sense that 'heavan can be found in a mothers feet'.

[Fessal]

You must be joking.
I cant joke like that about women because not only are wifes women so are mothers, daughters and sisters. Women deserve a lot of respect and in some regards more than men. Islam gives woman high status in the sense that 'Jannat can be found in a person's mothers feet'.

[sajjad]

heaven is under mothers feet..not wives..
wives shud be kept under the control all the time...otherwise discarded!

[catwoman]

Sajjad, I hope you're joking :-^

[sajjad]

this is serious stuff..
very important relationship...why would i joke about it

[catwoman]

this is serious stuff..
very important relationship...why would i joke about it

Wives should be kept under control? They're human, not dogs! :-*

[sajjad]

dogs r kept on leashes....
women are not

the diff is so obviously clear!

[catwoman]

dogs r kept on leashes....
women are not

the diff is so obviously clear!

You make it sound as if women should be kept on leashes too |-D

[sajjad]

arrghh, im tired now..!

i was just kidding about this crap, first with WIY then with Fessal, cant believe ya thought i was serious.

[catwoman]

arrghh, im tired now..!

i was just kidding about this crap, first with WIY then with Fessal, cant believe ya thought i was serious.

Your better be kidding or else http://pegasus.posluh.hr/sm/fighting/fighting45.gif

[sajjad]

nice emoticon...its the first time i've seen it....cool!

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

the prophet(pbuh) said, " paradise lies at the feet of your mother."


Another interesting story a man went up to the prophet(pbuh) and asked who deserves best care from me? the prophet(pbuh) replied, " your mother", the man asked once again, was told again, "your mother", the man asked who then, he was told, " your mother," the man asked one final time and was then told, "your father"!!!!!!!!!!!

[catwoman]

the prophet(pbuh) said, " paradise lies at the feet of your mother."


Another interesting story a man went up to the prophet(pbuh) and asked who deserves best care from me? the prophet(pbuh) replied, " your mother", the man asked once again, was told again, "your mother", the man asked who then, he was told, " your mother," the man asked one final time and was then told, "your father"!!!!!!!!!!!

What about the wife? |-S

[Officer Barbrady]

:oD the madness continues...

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

will dig up some quotes about the wife from scriptures !!!!

[sajjad]

hehehehe.....poor ol wife...lol!

[Annie]

umar I'd feel very very sorry for the poor girl that marries u...for after all u are a true bred pakistani guy :-D ...hence my backward label hit the spot earlier and u haven't disappointed... :-D

a wife is some1's daughter, the mother of a person's kids (if that person can give her some that is)...

considering men need a woman in their lives to guide them because they have trouble getting the little things done in life, says a lot for men's abilities ;-)

I wudn't make Islam's ruling on women and divorce a joke as people are on this thread...this is serious business and in NO way has Islam undermined women by having them take a khula while a man can utter those 3 ugly words (but as pointed out...it doesn't work that way if that man is under the influence of his uncontrollable anger..the few things he can manage to do on his own...)

A wife is the compromiser and more marriages only exist because of the wife, not because the husband makes much attempt to keep it together...because in the case of divorce the often irrationality and power-hunger lie the man's way as his quest to prove he is man and can get away with divorcing (the most hated thing) and find himself another

and still the woman is put through hell if the man out of irrationality divorces the wife and then after his fried brain cools off and he decides he wants her back all of a sudden, then a hallala is in order as u see in Pakistani society...a good example of what this pathetic situation really means for both the parties is greatly portrayed in the drama phir yun love huwa...in other words, marriage ain't no game and neither is divorce...but sadly, men have problems realizing late that they make mistakes that not only affect them, but a whole family...

if u want to know a wife's status in Islam, look alone at the Prophet's last sermon and if that doesn't knock some sense into u, then nothing will...

men don't realize how much they will be held accountable for their treatment towards their wives and they go around treating them like doormats or replacable objects

for those that think that they can have 4 wives...read what the Quran has to say regarding this, instead of just wat suits u...it's interesting how men just manage to focus on what seems to go their way...find out what 'hidayath' the Quran has laid out regarding this...

here's an interesting article, worth a read...some of the terms esp. in the latter part of the article are foreign to me, so if some1 has heard em b4, let us know...but the 'jist' is there...

Divorce: Some Misconceptions

"Either you live together legally and happily, or else you separate by divorce in a dignified and decent way."
by Muhammad Azam

Lack of proper Islamic knowledge about divorce has led to some misconceptions in society. A comprehensive review of various aspects of divorce can help people understand what divorce actually is.

Islam has taken all possible measures to make marriage a happy and lasting relationship. Marriage in Islam is a civil contract (nikah) between a man and a woman to live together as husband and wife. It automatically confers mutual rights and duties upon the parties which both must remain mindful of.

The Quran and the holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) have stressed that both partners should act kindly and fairly with each other. However, for all married couples to have disagreements now and then is quite natural. In case a serious disagreement occurs a procedure is recommended in Islam to help reconcile the situation before a divorce. This arbitration procedure and the steps before the actual termination of marriage are described below.

(I) The two parties must try to settle their differences on their own. (II) If they fail, two arbitrators, one from the husband’s relatives, and one from the wife’s relatives, must be appointed to try to make peace and to settle their differences. (III) If this attempt also fails, then the husband or the wife may seek a divorce. (IV) In case divorce is served, a reconciliation time of three months is available (except if the parties have divorced each other for the third time). The two parties can reconsider their views and reunite in this waiting time. (V) However, if the above time limit expires and no reconciliation occurs, then the divorce becomes effective and marriage is terminated.

Islam encourages reunion of the two disputing parties and considers it meritorious to cancel divorce during the reconciliation time. From the given procedure, it is clear that Islam permits divorce only when it has become impossible for the parties to live together in harmony and also all attempts to make peace have failed. If both parties are willing to live together happily, in spite of the defects or drawbacks in the other, no power on earth can impose a divorce.

A Muslim is permitted to have recourse to divorce, provided there is ample justification for such an extreme measure. Islam does not believe in unlimited opportunities for divorce on trivial reasons. To curtail reckless use without reason, a tradition of the holy Prophet says that among all permitted things, God dislikes divorce the most. God has condemned the Muslims who use their legal rights of divorce except on legitimate grounds and in unbearable condition. In the absence of a genuine reason, no Muslim can justify a divorce in the eyes of either religion or law.

Islam assumes that a normal Muslim will act responsibly and conscientiously while exercising the option of divorce. A substantial dower (mahr) at the marriage settlement will check any rashness on the husband for divorce (talaq). In addition, any lawful condition can be agreed to on the eve of marriage as a safeguard against a rash decision; for example, that the marriage can be dissolved only by mutual consent of both parties. In Pakistan, this question in the marriage contract (nikah nama) is usually crossed out or deliberately ignored.

Islam does not favor to endanger marriage by allowing divorce. On the contrary, it insures it by the very same option, for the wrong person would know that the other person can free himself or herself from injustice and harm by divorce. By realizing that marriage is binding only as long as it is functional and successful, both parties would do their utmost to make their marriage fulfilling before doing anything that might affect the continuance of marriage. Divorce makes each party careful in choosing the other partner before marriage and also in treating that partner later.

The Holy Quran refers to some causes when divorce may become necessary, but it does not restrict them to a fixed list. The grounds to seek divorce are entrusted to the individuals’ conscience. The general cause of divorce in Quran is the hopeless failure of one or both parties to discharge their marital duties and to live together with kindness, peace and compassion. There may be a reason for aversion between both the spouses which may not seem important to an arbitrator but which may be sufficient to spoil the marital relations between them.

For example, the Holy Prophet allowed a woman to get divorce from her husband on the ground that she intensely disliked the husband’s ugliness, although the husband had not wronged the wife in any way. It is apparent that for divorce to be allowed, the genuineness and magnitude of the aversion is more important than the actual reason as perceptions of contentment and marital happiness vary between individuals of different temperaments, backgrounds, cultures and social status. In Islam, the husband has an absolute right of divorce and no consent is required from the wife. In a similar sense, Islam also allows the wife to seek divorce. However, the grounds to seek divorce by a wife vary from the Hanafi school to the more liberal Maliki school. To avoid these variations and assure that justice is done to both parties, each time, legislative reform has taken place slowly in different Muslim countries.

Therefore, the divorce cases go before a judge for a decision. In the Family Courts in Pakistan, reconciliation by arbitration is attempted during the court proceedings. The wife is entitled to seek divorce from her side with eventual consent of the husband (khula) or by dissolution of the marriage through a judicial order (faskh). The parties may also divorce each other by mutual aversion and consent (mubarat).

Through reform laws like the Dissolution of Muslim Marriages Act of 1939 the courts have established some suitable grounds (like mistreatment, desertion, serious illness, etc) and guidelines (like time limits, medical opinion, etc.) to judge whether to allow the wife a divorce. The wife or any third person (like the wife’s father) can also be delegated the right of divorce by the husband (tafwid), at the time of marriage or later, on conditions which are not against Islamic principles. For instance, if the husband fails to provide maintenance (nafaqa) for the wife for a certain period without good cause.

It should be noticed that a prolonged “separation” (tafriq) of the couple without a divorce is not acceptable or endorsed in Islam. In this state, the parties can neither enjoy the benefits of marriage nor are they free to marry anyone as unmarried persons. Continuous separation often leads to vices like illegal relationships in society. God protects people against such immorality and indignity. Islam gives a simple message to the married Muslims: Either you live together legally and happily, or else you separate by divorce in a dignified and decent way. In spite of this, some Muslim couples continue to live apart as ‘separated only’ without any divorce.

The concept of alimony at divorce as seen in the western society is not applicable in Islam. The Holy Quran repeatedly speaks of the post-divorce settlement in terms of fairness and kindness. If the husband initiates divorce then he pays the wife dower compensation and if the wife seeks the divorce then she pays the husband compensation but the actual amount is based upon the circumstances found by the court.

Apart from the well known talaq and khula, three other types of repudiation are referred to in Quran, namely the vow of abstention (ila), maternal comparison (zihar) and mutual oath swearing (lian). These three types of dissolution of marriage were mostly relevant to the norms prevailing in society at the Holy Prophets time. Today, ila and zihar are virtually extinct. However, lian was revived in Pakistan in 1979 by Ordinance VIII (Enforcement of Hadd).

In the absence of legal evidence, lian means in simplified sense that the husband takes oath about his wife’s unfaithfulness, while the wife takes oath about her innocence in a court. After both complete their oaths, the marriage is ended either by divorce from the husband or dissolved by the court. Under the special circumstances in which this marriage has ended, re-marriage to one another is prohibited. There are a few factors that are important in Islam that should be mentioned here: (1) The teachings of Islam have to be taken into account in “totality” to understand the circumstances. For example, ‘Islam permits polygamy’ but with an additional instruction that ‘justice be done to all the wives’. Hence, an instruction (which suits a person) cannot be selective and implemented without taking into account other “modifiers.” In the same way, divorce also has to be looked at in totality. (2) Many things in Islam change with the elements of the situation. For example, eating during normal days and during fasting. Divorce also changes in Islam based on the situation, from highly undesirable or nearly forbidden (without good reason) changing to highly recommended or nearly obligatory (in situations like when the wife is unfaithful).

Every attempt should be made to maintain a marriage, but sometimes in real life the husband and wife are unable to settle their differences even after family arbitration. What is the best course of action thereafter? Should divorce be taken or not? In Pakistan, it is often believed that no matter what happens, the couple must not divorce even when the marriage has failed beyond repair. This is sometimes due to the fear that divorce will bring disgrace to the family prestige or due to the idea that children will be harmed by divorce. The truth is that Islam recommends opposite to that course as the Quran and Sunnah and texts by Islamic scholars testify.

Source: Pakistan Today www.paktoday.com/index.html

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

thanks for that annie!!!!! a lot of misconceptions dealth with there!!

[catwoman]

In Islam, the husband has an absolute right of divorce and no consent is required from the wife.

***? Both partners should have an equal say in the divorce. :-*

[Annie]

to my understanding, like the man, the woman can divorce her husband without resorting to the court, if the nuptial contract allows that...some1 can verify, but I think that's the whole point of the 'crossing' off that men do to deny this 'right'.

from a hadith:
"the most perfect believers are the best in conduct and the best of you are those that are best to their wives."


regarding polygamy:

Qur'an is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says 'marry only one'. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur'an:

"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one." [Al-Qur'an 4:3]

Before the Qur'an was revealed, there was no upper limit for Polygamy and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them.

In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:

"Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women...." [Al-Qur'an 4:129]

Therefore Polygamy is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.

[catwoman]

Polygamy is not justifiable :-^

[Annie]

well see some dumb men think it's smart and okay to do...in a man's world..yes...but then it doesn't matter what they think...uper ja kay patha chalay ga kya khoya kya paya...

[catwoman]

well see some dumb men think it's smart and okay to do...in a man's world..yes...but then it doesn't matter what they think...uper ja kay patha chalay ga kya khoya kya paya...

I don't think a lot of Pakistani men would agree with polygamy though. And thankfully it's not easily accepted in our culture either.

Polygamy is immoral in my opinion. Men don't need 2 wives to fulfil their desires and fantasies. :-^

[Annie]

it's unfortunately becoming more and more common nowadays...a sad statement on the part of Muslims...

u'll be surprised to hear from 'men' regarding polygamy...to justify their 'need' for more than one woman in their life...and the moment their wife even so much as compliments another man, they go wild...hypocrites wud be right word to use here i think... :-D

[Annie]

and why I say sad is because it's often for little reason, as if they just need any excuse watsoever to marry another...with little consideration of what impact this wud have on another human being's life, but a wife is not a human now is she??

nextly, it's more often WITHOUT the consent of the previous wife (s) as men (esp. the backward men in our country) think it's their 'right' even though it is NOT permissible unless the wife AGREES to him doing so, he has to take her permission to do so... and if she doesn't...the man wud divorce to fulfill his wish to marry another...

[catwoman]

it's unfortunately becoming more and more common nowadays...a sad statement on the part of Muslims...

u'll be surprised to hear from 'men' regarding polygamy...to justify their 'need' for more than one woman in their life...and the moment their wife even so much as compliments another man, they go wild...hypocrites wud be right word to use here i think... :-D

You are generalizing with that statement about men going wild when their wives compliment on other men. Part of hypocrisy is also judging others, which I have seen you do.

I don't think most men on PP would agree with polygamy though because it's a form of cheating and taboo in our culture.

[Toony™®]

yes.. they should be allowed to divorce - thats my two cents!!

[catwoman]

and why I say sad is because it's often for little reason, as if they just need any excuse watsoever to marry another...with little consideration of what impact this wud have on another human being's life, but a wife is not a human now is she??

nextly, it's more often WITHOUT the consent of the previous wife (s) as men (esp. the backward men in our country) think it's their 'right' even though it is NOT permissible unless the wife AGREES to him doing so, he has to take her permission to do so... and if she doesn't...the man wud divorce to fulfill his wish to marry another...

Marrying another without consent is cheating and betrayal. If the man is so desperate for a second wife, then he should divorce the first one because I don't believe you can love 2 women equally at the same time. I would never be able to "share" a husband.

[Annie]

You are generalizing with that statement about men going wild when their wives compliment on other men. Part of hypocrisy is also judging others, which I have seen you do.

oh excuse me for judging others...and even more sorry that u feel I'm generalizing...though I don't see ALL written anywhere...

maybe I shall stop judging altogether then, so that u don't get offended or any1 else for that matter...I knew there was little point of all this...oh well, at least I tried and I've proved to myself why I was correct with the decision I had made earlier about...well forget it...

lets just say, u or any1 else won't have to worry about me 'generalizing' or judging others again...

cheers.

[catwoman]

oh excuse me for judging others...and even more sorry that u feel I'm generalizing...though I don't see ALL written anywhere...

You wrote "men". What does that imply?

maybe I shall stop judging altogether then, so that u don't get offended or any1 else for that matter...I knew there was little point of all this...oh well, at least I tried and I've proved to myself why I was correct with the decision I had made earlier about...well forget it...

I'm not offended, it seems you're the one who has been offended by my statement. Apologies if I have offended you though. I have seen you judge in the past especially in the Jemima thread, and I'm sure many others would agree with that.

[Annie]

don't worry, I've put an end to your concern....

as for ALL, I meant where I have written ALL men I don't see, but maybe you can read ALL men somewhere or maybe you feel I've implied it...

as I said, u or any1 else won't have to worry about reading any judgemental and generalizing comments from me anymore...it seems that has always been the problem...and there's no point in continuing what others find problematic...

[catwoman]

You didn't write "few", "some" men either so by saying "men", it would imply all, I would think.

[MIG]

"People" should divorce when its impossible to continue - but pls pls , spare a thought for the children involved in this - they get traumatised for life and you get these strange maladjusted individuals as a result.....

[sajjad]

well see some dumb men think it's smart and okay to do...in a man's world..yes...but then it doesn't matter what they think...uper ja kay patha chalay ga kya khoya kya paya...

I don't think a lot of Pakistani men would agree with polygamy though. And thankfully it's not easily accepted in our culture either.

Polygamy is immoral in my opinion. Men don't need 2 wives to fulfil their desires and fantasies. :-^

The reason it was allowed in Islam because back in those days, their used to be plenty of wars and many men died. These were husbands and they left behind hundreds of widows. In those medieval times there was no one to take care of these women, hence ppl married more than once. not for desires and fantasies but more to better the situation.

[catwoman]

The children would be traumatized even if they lived with parents who constantly fought and argued.

[sajjad]

oh excuse me for judging others...and even more sorry that u feel I'm generalizing...though I don't see ALL written anywhere...

You wrote "men". What does that imply?

maybe I shall stop judging altogether then, so that u don't get offended or any1 else for that matter...I knew there was little point of all this...oh well, at least I tried and I've proved to myself why I was correct with the decision I had made earlier about...well forget it...

I'm not offended, it seems you're the one who has been offended by my statement. Apologies if I have offended you though. I have seen you judge in the past especially in the Jemima thread, and I'm sure many others would agree with that.

chill out girls
this aint a boxing match |-O

[MIG]

The children would be traumatized even if they lived with parents who constantly fought and argued.

Parents always argue but divorce is such a sad end to marriage - in Islam its the most unlikable option - but ofcourse, marriage is NO prison.

If a compromise can be reached - why not spare everyone the heartbreak and trauma ?

[Annie]

I'm not offended, it seems you're the one who has been offended by my statement. Apologies if I have offended you though. I have seen you judge in the past especially in the Jemima thread, and I'm sure many others would agree with that.

to add one last thing...of course u wudn't call labeling people e-mullahs "generalizing" or "being judgemental", and is okay to conveniently do so repeatedly...

if a person themselves doesn't 'generalize' or 'judge' others then a statement like the conveniently mentioned jemima one above, is easier to swallow...

btw your sig is not judgmental at all...and definitely not sickening...and then you know better than so many, so i'll leave it upto you to bash others, so long as no one else does...cuz then it'd be judgemental u see..

and "many of us" are of course not offended by your at times blasphemous comments regarding Islam either...they are quite swell..i'm definitely sure many others would agree with me on that as well...

adios!

[Sid]

Hopefully, this should shed some light on the SUBJECT: (Source: http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=6733)


"Elaborating on this issue, we'd like to cite for you the words of Sheik Yusuf Al-Qaradawi in his well-known book, The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam. He writes:

"The woman who cannot bear to live with her husband has the right to free herself from the marriage bond by returning to her husband the mahr (required marriage gift) and gifts he has given her, or more or less than that according to their mutual agreement. It is, however, preferable that he should not ask for more than he has given her. Allah Almighty says: "...And if you (the judges) fear that the two may not be able to keep to the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she redeems herself (from the marriage tie by returning all or part of the mahr)..." (Al-Baqarah: 229)

[sajjad]

I'm not offended, it seems you're the one who has been offended by my statement. Apologies if I have offended you though. I have seen you judge in the past especially in the Jemima thread, and I'm sure many others would agree with that.

to add one last thing...of course u wudn't call labeling people e-mullahs "generalizing" or "being judgemental", and is okay to conveniently do so repeatedly...

if a person themselves doesn't 'generalize' or 'judge' others then a statement like the conveniently mentioned jemima one above, is easier to swallow...

btw your sig is not judgmental at all...and definitely not sickening...and then you know better than so many, so i'll leave it upto you to bash others, so long as no one else does...cuz then it'd be judgemental u see..

and "many of us" are of course not offended by your at times blasphemous comments regarding Islam either...they are quite swell..i'm definitely sure many others would agree with me on that as well...

adios!

Annie, ur comments are a delight to read. i do hope we will see more of them soon. Mona, listen to the girl....she does make sense!

[Officer Barbrady]

"People" should divorce when its impossible to continue - but pls pls , spare a thought for the children involved in this - they get traumatised for life and you get these strange maladjusted individuals as a result.....


Why? Every person must look after himself. No need to 'think' about anyone including children!

[sajjad]

marooned, ur a ******* :-)

let the threasd settle already....its gone long enuf already!

[entralinks]

annie save your energies to make me some soup and feed me grapes. I remember Mona sultan saying something like this on old PP ...
I believe in one God, and his prophets, and I think it is enough to believe in, for a religion.
After the discussions progress a bit ...
I'm not even sure there is a God.
I mean ***?

Again save your energies and ignore her childish and self-contradictory remarks REGARDING ISLAM ONLY. Its not she speaking, its people around her who have made up pathetic excuses for not having to act on Islamic principles, and she seems to be trying to grab their tail, no matter which direction they head.

Well good to see you ending this, but if you had continued, a point would have come where if Mona could not justify her justifications, she would simply put, 'The existence of God is doubtful' or 'The Qur'an is outdated and was meant for that period only', maybe more horrible than this.


No offence Mona, but a little bit was due. If you can say "I don't give a damn what other people think.", then I guess my post is a mere reflection. Happy reading.

[Schiller]

As I was reading this thread, I felt like I was a spectator in the chamber of my beloved Marquis de Sade where the principals of the court of Caligula had gathered but thats another story :-D


Annie:

"umar I'd feel very very sorry for the poor girl that marries u...for after all u are a true bred pakistani guy ...hence my backward label hit the spot earlier and u haven't disappointed...:-D "


Madame, pleasure is my business ;-)

Besides had I disappointed you in any way by not coming across as a a true third world country bred guy, would just have been such a citizen-of-the-first-world thing to do, actually I err, such an immigrant-from-third-world-in-first-world-thing to do ;-)

(besides isnt that one of thing people accuse Islam of? outdated and out of sync)

and now to business, if my understanding is right then Islam doesnt allow the woman to divorce in the same manner as man. However upon further investigation into extraneous conditions laid down in marriage contract then the following might hold true (The Shafi school believes that no extranoues conditions are allowed in a marriage),


"In this regard, The European Council for Fatwa and Research, issued the following Fatwa:

- Woman has the right to execute divorce if this is a condition stipulated in the marriage contract or the husband gives her this right later on.

- A woman can also ask for Khul` in front of a judge who should exhaust all means of reconciliation before sentencing Khul`.

- A woman may agree with her husband on divorce according to legal conditions."

-> Source (www.islamonline.net)

To sum it up, you can have extraneous conditions but traditionally Islam doesnt allow the woman to utter divorce, she has to get a Khula.

[Schiller]

As for second wife and consent, that is not in Islam. The man is not required to seek the consent of his first wife to marry another. That is something that is part of Pakistani law and I might be wrong but I think Asma Jahangir came up with that nonsense. If she didnt, then I apologise to her in principle. Nonsense it remains though. Islam has no such stipulations.

Also the thinggy about polygamy is not about pleasure and all that jazz per se as Sajjad (I think) mentioned it. Lets not distort the fundamentals of Islam to give women more power than they have and vice versa .

[sajjad]

"The man is not required to seek the consent of his first wife to marry another"

I shall research further and give u quranic or ahadis as prove of this if i can

"Also the thinggy about polygamy is not about pleasure and all that jazz per se as Sajjad (I think) mentioned it. Lets not distort the fundamentals of Islam to give women more power than they have and vice versa ."


So are u negating what i said about polygamy. or r u accepting the reason i gave for why polygamy was allowed

[Schiller]

I agree about your pt re polygamy Sajjad

for the consent thinggy, I believe I am right and the same is said in the source I quoted earlier:

“If a man is able to take a second wife, physically and financially, and he can treat both wives in a just manner, and he wants to, then he is allowed to do so according to Islam. Allah says, “Then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four.” (An-Nisa’: 3) "

LIke I said, the consent thing is part of pakistani law not shariah. THis issue was vehemently debated a long time ago when I, a true pakistani bred guy as opposed to some others;-), was still in Pakistan.

As I said if I remember right Asma Jahangir is one of the main principals behind it, if not in making it happen then surely in making such nonsense survive. THe prophet didnt seek any wife's consent and theres nothing in QUran that says that too. I despise this feminist movement in muslim women generally because they tend to go overboard.

[sajjad]

hmmm interesting... i would take ur word for it, but i feel like researching it a bit more when i get home. will let u know if and when i find something diff.

[Schiller]

I would indeed be interested to know if there are things to the contrary. Wonder what Sufi (mecnunk) has to say to this.

[Schiller]

From Surah-Talaq:

[65.1] O Prophet! when you divorce women, divorce them for~ their prescribed time, and calculate the number of the days prescribed, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, your Lord. Do not drive them out of their houses, nor should they themselves go forth, unless they commit an open indecency; and these are the limits of Allah, and whoever goes beyond the limits of Allah, he indeed does injustice to his own soul. You do not know that Allah may after that bring about reunion.

[65.2] So when they have reached their prescribed time, then retain them with kindness or separate them with kindness, and call to witness two men of justice from among you, and give upright testimony for Allah

[Geordie Ahmed]

A very interesting subject!

It seems as if Polygamy is gaining popularity of late (atleast from what i have heard) In the past year or so the amount of men (usually in their 50's) getting married to women that are younger than some of their children is becoming kinda common!

Islam says that the husband has to treat each qife equally BUT i cant see how that is possible by men of today!

[Schiller]

yar I am not sure where polygamy is gaining popularity. if anything I think its gone down due to economic conditions and wht not

besides its very difficult to treat them equally as it happens even with equalmoney. besides that doesnt mean that he has to love them all equally, just treat them equally

[Geordie Ahmed]

yar I am not sure where polygamy is gaining popularity. if anything I think its gone down due to economic conditions and wht not

besides its very difficult to treat them equally as it happens even with equalmoney. besides that doesnt mean that he has to love them all equally, just treat them equally

even treating them i would think its nigh on impossible

[Schiller]

yar basically, you give them same matieral thinggies (the biggest pain consdiering theyre women) and then i think night for a night or some reasonable ratio, ofcourse the old hag loses to the new bombshell :-D

[Geordie Ahmed]

yar basically, you give them same matieral thinggies (the biggest pain consdiering theyre women) and then i think night for a night or some reasonable ratio, ofcourse the old hag loses to the new bombshell :-D

Thats my point, im sure when the new bombshell arrives he would dread going to the older woman (il refrain from using the word you used :-D :-D )

[Schiller]

:oD :oD chickened out eh? afraid of annie and mona :oD

the other thing is everyone takes the first wife's perspective. what about the sweet soul the second one is? doesnt she deserve a few mths/yrs of undivided orgasmic bliss? ofcourse she does :-D

[entralinks]

:oD :oD


Well the best possible thing to do is follow what the Prophet s.a. did with his wives, how he treated them all etc.

I agree, husband doesn't need the consent, only if it hadn't been mentioned in the nikah declaration by the bride that her husband must ask for permission first. Annie is right, nikah naama is crucial, and thats only if women are educated about it, its amazing how much power they have. If it is mentioned in there that if the husband farts too much, I can get a divorce ... she can, even for this reason.

My thinking is, the reason women haven't been given the ability to divorce her husband by tongue is their haste in making decisions and then thinking after they have made them. They really act and react irrationally when under pressure or in danger or in anger or in sorrow. No offence but thats their nature, or maybe I don't like them? http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons6/39.gif

[Geordie Ahmed]

:oD :oD chickened out eh? afraid of annie and mona :oD

the other thing is everyone takes the first wife's perspective. what about the sweet soul the second one is? doesnt she deserve a few mths/yrs of undivided orgasmic bliss? ofcourse she does :-D

Me Scared??? Never |-D :o^ :o^

Id be worried if they double teamed BUT based on the posts above they have some issues between them!

I think this thread was an attempt by you to divide and conquer :-D :-D :-D

[Schiller]

"I agree, husband doesn't need the consent, only if it hadn't been mentioned in the nikah declaration by the bride that her husband must ask for permission first."

Againt eh q is wouldnt that be against the rules laid down in Islam (this is where the Shaafi school comes into play)

I agree with your decision and its folly to dispute that a whole lot, no woman either would say that women arent prone to exaggerations and hysteria and so would you want it all jeopardised? ofcourse not

[Schiller]

"I think this thread was an attempt by you to divide and conquer "

:oD :oD :oD :oD

if you ntoice im lenient on both sides :oD

that the good old cabbie insight coming into play :oD

[entralinks]

Against which rule laid down in Islam? Thats what I stated, a rule.

I believe all these schools present 'opinions' and not 'mandatory' or 'fards', thats common in all these schools. Or perhaps I'm wrong.

[Schiller]

yar if you go by what Quran said, then you dont need permission and i believe that sipulating conditions to that effect is not strictly islamic.

im merely playing the devils advocate here.

[catwoman]

annie save your energies to make me some soup and feed me grapes. I remember Mona sultan saying something like this on old PP ...
I believe in one God, and his prophets, and I think it is enough to believe in, for a religion.
After the discussions progress a bit ...
I'm not even sure there is a God.
I mean ***?

Again save your energies and ignore her childish and self-contradictory remarks REGARDING ISLAM ONLY. Its not she speaking, its people around her who have made up pathetic excuses for not having to act on Islamic principles, and she seems to be trying to grab their tail, no matter which direction they head.

Well good to see you ending this, but if you had continued, a point would have come where if Mona could not justify her justifications, she would simply put, 'The existence of God is doubtful' or 'The Qur'an is outdated and was meant for that period only', maybe more horrible than this.


No offence Mona, but a little bit was due. If you can say "I don't give a damn what other people think.", then I guess my post is a mere reflection. Happy reading.

Wow, you even have the time to memorize my posts. Memorizing the Quran instead of my posts would have been a better idea though. ;-)

Those are my PERSONAL thoughts and beliefs and no one has the right to question them except God. At times my curious little mind does have doubts about the existence of God, which is quite normal because none of us have seen him... I have the right to think and do whatever I choose to because it's my personal life and no one is being affected by these thoughts and actions of mine. I'd rather you don't bring this up because it's none of your business and I'm entitled to say and do whatever I want. End of story. :-*

[sajjad]

hmmmm quite interesting to learn that the Quran does in fact NOT regulate the husband in terms of asking the first wife if he wants to remarry. Im quite surprised at this, but if you read the quranic verses with a logical and sensible mind, you will come to the conclusion that in today's day and edge polygamy is dissallowed.

Thats the beauty of the quran, that is whereas the Bible and Torah have been completely modified for current situations, the quran's contains clauses regarding each topic which make it subject to change over time.

In my mind, a man living in the modern era. With all the tasks and tribulations and the fast paced modern life cannot treat equally 2 women and cannot give them thier due. and vice versa... im reading some material online. I encourage you all to read and learn rather than forming rigid mindsets and not adhering to common logical thought!

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

hose are my PERSONAL thoughts and beliefs and no one has the right to question them except God. At times my curious little mind does have doubts about the existence of God, which is quite normal because none of us have seen him..



u r entitled to your view of course but questioning coz u havent seen god? has anyone seen electricity? but we know it is there and helps us. Also darwin's theory has flaws in it - No way that the world could have been so intricate if it was down to evolution - i mean the intricate details that tie in so well point to a higher power(God).

[entralinks]

Wow, you even have the time to memorize my posts. Memorizing the Quran instead of my posts would have been a better idea though. ;-)
I agree with you, that would have been more useful and sensible. Coz that makes more sense.

Those are my PERSONAL thoughts and beliefs and no one has the right to question them except God.
I never asked you to stop expressing your ''PERSONAL thoughts and beliefs", and the thing about not having the right to question them, who gave YOU the right to question ALLAH's commandements and Islamic rules?

At times my curious little mind does have doubts about the existence of God, which is quite normal because none of us have seen him...
Well most definitely you haven't seen your great great grandfather, so that means he never existed as well?

And little it is.

I have the right to think and do whatever I choose to because it's my personal life and no one is being affected by these thoughts and actions of mine. I'd rather you don't bring this up because it's none of your business and I'm entitled to say and do whatever I want. End of story. :-*
Well surprinsingly enough, I have those rights as well, its another matter I utilize them less. And why shouldn't I bring this up, its like if you said that and now regret it, or just are not able to defend your views, which apparently are quite undefendable. Waking up all night, eating nails on men who marry two women is none of your business as well, to be frankly harsh.

Just like my one post 'affected' you this much, keep in mind your remarks also 'affect' others who are sensitive about anything said against their religion and its principles. Be constructive and less instructive.

[Geordie Ahmed]

Vah Entra, kya kamaal ka post thah (im being serious as well0

[sajjad]

GA in raw mood today.

[Geordie Ahmed]

GA in raw mood today.

what do you mean?

[Waqar's inswinging yorker]

valid points entra - good argument about great great grandfather.

Also naturally a lot of us cant remember life as a baby? now is that all some sort of conspiracy we are only told about when we become parents?

Ah einstein didnt exist - i never saw him, his efforts have not gone unrecognised though.

[sajjad]

raw mood as in making just the perfect wiseass cracks at everyone and ya know hitting the skillet with the bone...(i really dont know what that means...it just felt right :-D )

[Geordie Ahmed]

raw mood as in making just the perfect wiseass cracks at everyone and ya know hitting the skillet with the bone...(i really dont know what that means...it just felt right :-D )

:oD :oD :oD @ skillet with the bone!

I realise the only way to deal with the PP'ers are with wisecracks, you cant get too serious, otherwise you will end up like Amjid Javed (Angry 24/7 |-n |-n |-n )

BTW a couple of questions if you dont mind?
When did you join PP?
Where are you from (pakistan as well)?
are you studying or working?

Its just that your bit of a mystery to PP and you seem like a funny geezer!

[sajjad]

"Its just that your bit of a mystery to PP and you seem like a funny geezer!"

oh ill take that as a compliment!
man of mystery with a sense of humor. :-)
(wish the pretty girls wud think of me like that) lol

ive been here since the start of the aus pak series.
obv from pak
and am currently working in amreeka but will be returning soon the homeland..to help my country be the tarakee-yafta mulk!

[entralinks]

valid points entra - good argument about great great grandfather.

Also naturally a lot of us cant remember life as a baby? now is that all some sort of conspiracy we are only told about when we become parents?

Ah einstein didnt exist - i never saw him, his efforts have not gone unrecognised though.


Well, I've stated in my earlier post, its not her who actually 'thinks' this, its those who she listens to, who have these pathetic childish excuses for not having to act on something religious for a start. And then we have this 'Submit' button to click on.

[Geordie Ahmed]

Ah rite Sajjad, so your a Manggy!

[sajjad]

a manggy?
is that a virus

[catwoman]

Well most definitely you haven't seen your great great grandfather, so that means he never existed as well?

And little it is.


What if I have seen my great great grandfather? |-D

I never asked you to stop expressing your ''PERSONAL thoughts and beliefs", and the thing about not having the right to question them, who gave YOU the right to question ALLAH's commandements and Islamic rules?

I question Allah's commandments and rules because I want to know the reasoning behind some of them. I won't follow anything if I don't see reasoning and practicality in it. I am not a blind follower of Islam.



Well surprinsingly enough, I have those rights as well, its another matter I utilize them less. And why shouldn't I bring this up, its like if you said that and now regret it, or just are not able to defend your views, which apparently are quite undefendable. Waking up all night, eating nails on men who marry two women is none of your business as well, to be frankly harsh.

What is your problem? Are you Allah's assistant or something? I am not the only person talking about polygamy here, what about the others? It's not their business either.

Just like my one post 'affected' you this much, keep in mind your remarks also 'affect' others who are sensitive about anything said against their religion and its principles. Be constructive and less instructive.

It's not my fault if people are too narrow-minded and incapable of tolerating others and differences in opinions.

Anyways, I am out of this topic because I don't want to discuss religion and nor do I give a rat's ass about it! :-*

[sajjad]

well said!

[Geordie Ahmed]

a manggy?
is that a virus

Yes, in a way!
its short for MANGAYTAR but it means ppl who have came from abroad

[sajjad]

naah i was born n raised in pakiland....been adventuring in foreignlands for the past few years.

[catwoman]

Well, I've stated in my earlier post, its not her who actually 'thinks' this, its those who she listens to, who have these pathetic childish excuses for not having to act on something religious for a start. And then we have this 'Submit' button to click on.

What the **** are you trying to say? :-*

[Fessal]

heaven is under mothers feet..not wives..
wives shud be kept under the control all the time...otherwise discarded!

ermm.. bhai when did i say heaven is under wives feet |-K

[sajjad]

forget that one fessal bhai jee....its an old old post now...we're way off topic now

[Fessal]

forget that one fessal bhai jee....its an old old post now...we're way off topic now

Lol its ok man. i know u were joking. I just find it a very serious topic and didnt realise u were joking before. :-) Anyway, I can't keep up with pp these days..lol

[sajjad]

i understand...though im addicted to the net nowadays...well i always was i guess

[Annie]

I guess my point earlier was that a man cannot marry another woman without letting his wife know (as the following answer also states) and if the wife is informed about this decision, she can choose to either accept it or reject it...in the event she rejects it, she can seek a divorce. So, while a man does not have to get permission 'per se' to marry again, his wife has the right to accept or reject this decision (in a way her consenting is an issue here) and in this case, the husband must divorce her if she asks for it.

in any case, here's a thorough answer

Legally speaking, a husband is not required to seek permission from his first wife before getting married to a second one. Had that been a condition, no second marriage would ever have taken place, because no woman would permit her husband to get married to another, unless if she is an extraordinary person or the circumstances are exceptional. However, it is highly recommended that, given the nature of the decision, the husband should do so or else he will have an extremely difficult time ahead, and would be in many cases guilty of being unfair as well. However, informing the new wife that he is already married is a legal requirement, otherwise he will be held guilty of deceiving her.

About plural marriages, one should always bear in mind that it is not something that is obligatory on Muslim men, nor is it highly recommended. It is only allowed. There is a huge difference between the two. Moreover, despite this permission, the vast majority of Muslim men have all along Islamic history married only once. Therefore, ladies need not worry about the prospects of living with another 'fellow wife'. One of the reasons that have acted as a deterrant against plural marriages has been the strict Qur'anic principle that in case of plural marriages, a husband must remain absolutely fair in providing all his wives exactly the same attention and facilities.

The reason why several marriages have been allowed to men is that sometimes the conditions of a society are such that allowing men to marry more than one wife is an absolute necessity or else, great harm is likely to be caused. In case of wars, for instance, more men are killed than women, thus causing great harm to the man-woman balance in the society, as was the case in Germany after the Second World War. If polygamy were to be banned in such situations, then there would be many women who will have to lead husband-less lives. Moreover, the chances of moral degeneration are greatly enhanced in such situations. Also, even in normal situations, if the first wife has developed some medical problems, for instance, which prevents her from performing the normal functions of a wife, a ban on polygamy would leave the husband who is not prepared to make a life-long sacrifice with only one choice: He would divorce his first wife to marry another. How very unfair! Even if we were to imagine that a husband isn't quite as careful in his conduct as Muslim men should be while dealing with the members of the opposite sex and as a consequence he gets interested in another lady to the extent that he wants to marry her, why should the first wife not be given the option to either live with her husband, adjusting to the new reality, or leaving him? Similarly, in such a situation, if plural marriages are banned, a husband is left with the choice of either divorcing his first wife or maintaining illicit relations with the other lady. The contemporary Western society, as a consequence of adopting a stubborn stance against polygamy, have settled for the latter choice.

If polygamy is allowed why is polyandry (allowing women to have several husbands) not allowed as well? The reason is simple: It is important that in case of every child parents should be clearly identified so that both parents and children could attend to the respective obligations they owe to each other. In case a woman has several husbands, that identifiaction would become impossible.

The Qur'an has mentioned clearly that the reason why prophet Muhammad, (PBUH), married several women was that he had a special mission to achieve for which it was necessary that he should be given that privilege. Otherwise, as a scholar has rightly pointed out, the ideal Muslim household under normal circumstances is comprised of one husband and one wife. Had that not been the case, God Almighty wouldn't have arranged only Eve to accompany Adam, Alaihissalaam. There should have been several wives with him at the beginning of man's arrival in this world.

[entralinks]

What if I have seen my great great grandfather? |-D
A six year old would have said something more funny. But sensible and acceptable at the same time.

I question Allah's commandments and rules because I want to know the reasoning behind some of them. I won't follow anything if I don't see reasoning and practicality in it.
No, you always deny and disavow His commandements and rules, tell me one thing Islamic you didn't believe or acted upon earlier and now you do with reasoning and undertanding? None. All you see, or in fact want to see, is the negatives, which are supposed, and don't exist, in Islam and then keep muttering till your interenet connection goes down. To follow something you need thrill and motivation, just like the ones during Pak matches, that show Shoaib's hanging hairs of babylon. I don't know whats practical about watching a match at 2:00 AM, with school the next morning.

I am not a blind follower of Islam.
You shouldn't be.

But pity, instead you're a blind denier of Islam.

What is your problem? Are you Allah's assistant or something? I am not the only person talking about polygamy here, what about the others? It's not their business either.
You. Are you satan's assistant or something? Yes you aren't the only person, but you are the only one who has a keera hoping around whenever something regarding Islam comes up, with ludircous remarks and sunay-sunaye excuses, so you are the one who needs tuning.

It's not my fault if people are too narrow-minded and incapable of tolerating others and differences in opinions.
To be honest they are more open-minded than you. They actually do accept and act on what they 'think' and 'see' to be true, after seeing enough proofs, and do not keep denying arrogantly. You seem to have a problem with Islam, so that makes me a problem for you. And getting this from you, 'It's not my fault if you are too narrow-minded and incapable of tolerating me and differences in opinions.'

Anyways, I am out of this topic because I don't want to discuss religion and nor do I give a rat's ass about it! :-*
Would have come in earlier, if that sets a tag on you. Plus about that rat's ass, yes, you should keep it, it suits you.



And if you don't care about religion then save the tender elastics, and actually do mean what you just said in the coming discussions on this topic.

[Annie]

another article worth a read...

Multiple wives in Islam
7/1/2004

Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one spouse.

Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny (up till four wives) is permitted; whereas polyandry is completely prohibited.

Qur’an is the only religion on the face of the earth that allows men having up till four wives, Allah says in the Holy Qur'an:

"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one." Al-Qur’an (4:3)

Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had many wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them.

So, Islam came to control having an infinite number of wives, like it was during the Pre-Islamic era.

In the same chapter Allah says in Surah Nisa verse 129, Allah says:

"You will never be able to be fair and just among women (wives)...." Qur’an (4:129)

Hence, Islam does allow having more than one wife, yet it has set conditions for that, which is that the husband should be fair with all his wives, and treat them equally, which is very difficult.

Multiple marriages lay a heavy responsibility on men, which is why Allah allowed having more than one wife only if the husband treats his wives equally. If a man has more than one wife, he must treat them all in an equal manner, emotionally and financially. For example, he has to provide separate living accommodation for each of his wives.

Since it is very difficult to be just with all wives, in practice, most of the Muslim men do not have more than one wife.

Therefore polygyny is not a rule or an order but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.

The reason for multiple wives in Islam was not to satisfy men’s desire and that's it, but for the welfare of the widows and the orphans of the wars. During war times, many women are unable to find husbands, and they might prefer to be a co-wife than no wife.

Also allowing multiple marriages is useful in case a man's wife is sterilized and can't give him the chance of being a father; here he has the right to marry another wife, and leaving the choice to her whether she wants to continue being his wife if he marries another woman or not

However men are prohibited from cheating on their wives, meaning a man can't marry another woman without the knowledge of his wife. He should tell her, for she might refuse such situation, and in this case it's totally her right if she asked for divorce.

In the pre-Islamic period, men used to have many wives.

One person had 11 wives and when he converted to Islam, he asked Prophet Mohammad (pbuh): "What should I do with my wives?"

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) replied:

"Divorce the all except four."

When non-Muslims hear about Prophet Mohammad’s multiple wives, they might conclude without much thought that he was a sensuous man. But the truth is that Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) was married to only one woman, Khadijah. He remained devoted to her from age 24 to 50. Only after her death, did the Prophet marry other women. The reason behind the Prophet (PBUH) marrying more than one wife was to spread Islam, and help the Islamic message to reach out to the world.

It is obvious that if he was after physical pleasure, he didn’t have to wait until he was more than fifty years old to start marrying other wives. His later marriages were for various reasons, some marriages were with the view to help widows whose husbands had been killed for the sake of Islam, others were to cement relationships with devoted followers like Abu Bakr Al-Sadeeq, may Allah be pleased with him. Some of his marriages were to build strong relations with various tribes that were at war with Muslims. In brief, Prophet Mohammad’s marriages always had Islamic motives.

Some of the non-Muslims misunderstand polygyny and claim that it is one of the negative aspects of Islam, but in fact Islam sought to control and regulate the number of wives rather than give free license. And the permission given to men to have more than one wife is controlled with the conditions Allah has set before marrying another wife.

[Geordie Ahmed]

thanks for the article annie, it was a very interesting read!

[Annie]

from the source you mentioned umar:

On the other hand, Islam does not oblige a wife to accept sharing her husband with another woman. In case she cannot, she has the liberty to seek divorce.

Madame, pleasure is my business

not surprised umar... |-v

Besides had I disappointed you in any way by not coming across as a a true third world country bred guy, would just have been such a citizen-of-the-first-world thing to do, actually I err, such an immigrant-from-third-world-in-first-world-thing to do

(besides isnt that one of thing people accuse Islam of? outdated and out of sync)

those people are idiots (pardon me), because Islam is progressive, beyond time, is for all time, has predicted things people are only NOW finding out...it has solutions for all problems, not just from the time of the Prophet (PBUH) but problems we face even today...

now if some "smart" people argue on the basis of the fact that it was revealed ages ago so how cud it apply today, they fail to also realize or comprehend that this is the word of the eternal, all-powerful God, the creator of this world, the one that will remain when all shall end one day...need I say more...Quran is for all times, for all people for all aspects of life...and if we stay away from it because we think it's 'outdated' well then nothing cud be more stupider...

[sajjad]

an enlightening viewpoint. im glad u took the time and gave us something good to read annie. Dr. Naik is also a helpful source for many islamic questions. would u like to name some more for me to read and learn from.

[entralinks]

Umar now stop tentalising, we have no hope, she's way ahead of us in all forms of the game, instead you'll get us killed. http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons6/23.gif


... and annie, we're sorry. http://members.aol.com/browrob549/sf/nerves.gif

[Annie]

i'm glad you guys found the stuff a good read

entra u have surprised me i must say...didn't think u took stuff like this seriously...

[entralinks]

To be honest, just wanted to take at least her off you, so that you could continue with learning or contributing and stop retaliating to her, which in fact would have been of no use. And yes, Islam is one of the things, that makes me serious, when its due. :?d

And I hope you don't take my ridiculous jokes seriously, its this keera I have. :-D

[catwoman]

No, you always deny and disavow His commandements and rules, tell me one thing Islamic you didn't believe or acted upon earlier and now you do with reasoning and undertanding? None. All you see, or in fact want to see, is the negatives, which are supposed, and don't exist, in Islam and then keep muttering till your interenet connection goes down. To follow something you need thrill and motivation, just like the ones during Pak matches, that show Shoaib's hanging hairs of babylon. I don't know whats practical about watching a match at 2:00 AM, with school the next morning.

I don't follow somethings because they are impractical and illogical to me and don't suit my lifestyle at all. Living my life the way I choose to is my basic right and Islam allows that. None of your business.


But pity, instead you're a blind denier of Islam.

Blind denier? I only deny some things I find impractical for myself and I have reasons to justify them too.

You. Are you satan's assistant or something? Yes you aren't the only person, but you are the only one who has a keera hoping around whenever something regarding Islam comes up, with ludircous remarks and sunay-sunaye excuses, so you are the one who needs tuning.

I can say whatever I want about Islam. You have no right to judge my remarks, Allah exists for that purpose, not you.

To be honest they are more open-minded than you. They actually do accept and act on what they 'think' and 'see' to be true, after seeing enough proofs, and do not keep denying arrogantly. You seem to have a problem with Islam, so that makes me a problem for you. And getting this from you, 'It's not my fault if you are too narrow-minded and incapable of tolerating me and differences in opinions.'

Atleast I'm not the one telling others they are wrong and telling them they will go to hell, like some ****ed up e-mullahs have told me in the past. Talk about open-mindedness.

This is my last post on this goddamn topic. Preach someone else now because I am not interested.[/quote]

[razzler]

Atleast I'm not the one telling others they are wrong and telling them they will go to hell, like some ***** up e-mullahs have told me in the past. Talk about open-mindedness.

I demand to see proof to where I have said that you are going to go to hell? If not then put a comment there saying "excluding Razzler."

[catwoman]

Atleast I'm not the one telling others they are wrong and telling them they will go to hell, like some ***** up e-mullahs have told me in the past. Talk about open-mindedness.

I demand to see proof to where I have said that you are going to go to hell? If not then put a comment there saying "excluding Razzler."

You weren't the one who said that though. There are many other e-mullahs around. It was on the SN board.

[entralinks]

I don't follow somethings because they are impractical and illogical to me and don't suit my lifestyle at all. Living my life the way I choose to is my basic right and Islam allows that. None of your business.
Well if you are so quick to state this same ******** everytime, why not consider this when you yourself are telling others of supposed flaws in Islamic rules and its impraticalities? Islam suits our life style pretty well, and do leave us with it, and the men who marry more than one woman, its none of your business. And don't forget to provide some proofs as to where Islam states you can live your life the way you want.

Blind denier? I only deny somethings I find impractical for myself.
And who decides whats practical and impractical for you? You. So what if you're deciding wrong there? Again it comes to your will. You're just not bothered to do it, and frankly someone who isn't able to lift his butt up for prayers, can't really convince others that easy.

I can say whatever I want about Islam. You have no right to judge my remarks, Allah exists for that purpose, not you.
I'm sorry, if you consider yourself to be a muslim, you cannot say 'whatever' you want about Islam. Of course I have no right to judge your remarks, but have the right to point out weirdiculousnesses. It still is ALLAH who will judge polygamists, e-mullahs, and me, so you better watch yourself as well.

Atleast I'm not the one telling others they are wrong and telling them they will go to hell, like some ***** up e-mullahs have told me in the past. Talk about open-mindedness.
Really? Didn't you just mention in this thread that polygamists are wrong, e-mullahs are wrong, and I should mind my business, which makes me wrong as well? And what makes you believe that every single bit that e-mullahs utter is false and worth ignoring. Do you counter them with reason and logic, which you yell about alot, when they preach to you? Thats enough for your invisible-mindedness.

This is my last post on this goddamn topic. Preach someone else now because I am not interested.
I'm always here to help sisters like yourself.

[catwoman]

Well if you are so quick to state this same ******** everytime, why not consider this when you yourself are telling others of supposed flaws in Islamic rules and its impraticalities? Islam suits our life style pretty well, and do leave us with it, and the men who marry more than one woman, its none of your business. And don't forget to provide some proofs as to where Islam states you can live your life the way you want.

Good for you if Islam suits your lifestyle. Apparently it doesn't suit mine in many aspects. If I followed every aspect, I wouldn't have been able to eat non-halal meat, dress the way I want, listen to music, enjoy my life because of the burden of praying 5 times a day, etc.

And who decides whats practical and impractical for you? You. So what if you're deciding wrong there? Again it comes to your will. You're just not bothered to do it, and frankly someone who isn't able to lift his butt up for prayers, can't really convince others that easy.

I am quite capable of deciding what is practical and impractical for me because thankfully God has gifted me with common sense.



I'm sorry, if you consider yourself to be a muslim, you cannot say 'whatever' you want about Islam. Of course I have no right to judge your remarks, but have the right to point out weirdiculousnesses. It still is ALLAH who will judge polygamists, e-mullahs, and me, so you better watch yourself as well.


Fine then I won't call myself Muslim - happy?.

I just merely expressed my opinion towards polygamy, like many others in this thread. If you are not a polygamist, why has it offended you so much?

[entralinks]

Good for you if Islam suits your lifestyle. Apparently it doesn't suit mine in many aspects. If I followed every aspect, I wouldn't have been able to eat non-halal meat, dress the way I want, listen to music, enjoy my life because of the burden of praying 5 times a day, etc.
So I would advise just as you would say 'None of your business' as soon as someone points out a finger at your life-style, you better not point fingers at their life-style as well, be it polygamists, e-mullahs, PPers or dwellers like me, coz again thats none of your business as well.

I am quite capable of deciding what is practical and impractical for me because thankfully God has gifted me with common sense.
I just don't know how to make sense of you. If now I say something what God has said about this, you'll gonna declare His existence as doubtful. But then you're quick to mention him every now and then.

Fine then I won't call myself Muslim - happy?
Putting words in my mouth already? Better if you put them in your head.

I just merely expressed my opinion towards polygamy, like many others in this thread. If you are not a polygamist, why has it offended you so much?
Mona you know why I'm doing this, you say one thing just to prove you are mature enough to out-think ALLAH in your bid to live a healthy life and then if by some chance the thingy about paradise/hell is true, then you will get the best place as well. Why say things like, 'I can live in whatever way I want, and Islam allows that.' Now the part 'I can live in whatever way I want' is true, of course you can, but why involve Islam in this? Where on earth does Islam say you can live in whatever way you want, if that was so, why in the name of God would a thousand pages long Qur'an come down, why would millions of prophets be sent, its ridiculous really, seriously a muslim has to live according to the principles laid out by Islam. Its another matter you act on them or not, but at least don't try to manipulate and confuse Islam with your desires.

Everyone is expressing their opinions, but not as blindly as you. Earlier you mentioned 'Polygamy has no justification.' ... now please tell me as to what justification a normal marriage has? Don't try to be what you aren't, you have no idea what Islam is, and you can't prove to us and dictate us what bit of it to follow and what bit to kick out.

I am not a polygamist, but come the circumstances, I could be one day, who knows. And even if I'm not, Islam allows that, and thats enough worth clashing for.

[catwoman]

So I would advise just as you would say 'None of your business' as soon as someone points out a finger at your life-style, you better not point fingers at their life-style as well, be it polygamists, e-mullahs, PPers or dwellers like me, coz again thats none of your business as well.

I was just stating my opinion on polygamy, like everyone else. Is opining against Islam? |-D

I just don't know how to make sense of you. If now I say something what God has said about this, you'll gonna declare His existence as doubtful. But then you're quick to mention him every now and then.

I do believe in God because I'm a Muslim but at times I do have thoughts about whether he exists or not...it's just called curiosity.

Mona you know why I'm doing this, you say one thing just to prove you are mature enough to out-think ALLAH in your bid to live a healthy life and then if by some chance the thingy about paradise/hell is true, then you will get the best place as well. Why say things like, 'I can live in whatever way I want, and Islam allows that.' Now the part 'I can live in whatever way I want' is true, of course you can, but why involve Islam in this? Where on earth does Islam say you can live in whatever way you want, if that was so, why in the name of God would a thousand pages long Qur'an come down, why would millions of prophets be sent, its ridiculous really, seriously a muslim has to live according to the principles laid out by Islam. Its another matter you act on them or not, but at least don't try to manipulate and confuse Islam with your desires.

Everyone is expressing their opinions, but not as blindly as you. Earlier you mentioned 'Polygamy has no justification.' ... now please tell me as to what justification a normal marriage has? Don't try to be what you aren't, you have no idea what Islam is, and you can't prove to us and dictate us what bit of it to follow and what bit to kick out.

Other can choose to follow Islam entirely in each and every aspect however I am unable to do so. I have been gifted with a brain and common sense to figure out what is right and what isn't. As long as I'm not harming myself or others, it's okay. :-)

Polygamy in my opinion is a form of cheating especially without consent. You should be committed to one person for your life and s/he should be the one and only. No need for any second, third spouses in this day and age.

I am not trying to dictate anyone, just expressing my opinions. I know I have very limited knowledge on Islam because I frankly am not very religious or spiritual.

[MIG]

Mona - thanks for changing the sig.

Regards

[Annie]

an enlightening viewpoint. im glad u took the time and gave us something good to read annie. Dr. Naik is also a helpful source for many islamic questions. would u like to name some more for me to read and learn from.

I have to say that I don't read up a lot outside the Quran. So I wouldn't know who the good writers of today are on topics concerning Islam. I do try to make use of the books I have at home on topics such as this one when I need to look something up. The stuff I've posted up earlier was from Jamal Badawi's book on the status of women in Islam. I wouldn't be able to name scholar's off the top of my head. One of the most inspirational speakers though for me without a doubt has been Dawud Wharsnsby. I heard him at a conference regarding "proving the existence of God" where he along with a Jewish and Christian speaker talked on this topic. He was without a doubt the most clear and most impressive of the 3, not surprisingly, but the other two had no clue what they were saying and some of my Christian friends didn't agree with a lot of the stuff the Christian guy was saying. Half the stuff the Jewish guy was saying went over the top of people's heads. But Dawud held his ground and was enjoyable to listen to. He is a convert (or reverted as some people prefer calling it) as is his sister (both are *****) MashAllah. If you get a chance to go to a conference where he is a speaker, I can say that it wud be well worth it, esp. since he seems to be able to get through to the young generation of today, which I believe is so important, and not something every1 is capable of.

[Annie]

I'm gonna go slightly off topic here and post an article on rising divorce rate in Muslims living in the West...It's not a wonderfully written article, but touches on many important points regarding family...

Thinking About Our Family
Samana Siddiqui
If you want to get a glimpse of the future of Islam in America, take a good look at the state of the Muslim family here today.

For Muslims living in non-Muslim countries, the family is where Islam’s first seeds are planted and nurtured, not the mosque or other societal institutions. It is by watching family members pray, fast, tell the truth, and respect each other that children learn Islamic values; it is by watching parents and siblings decorate the house for Eid, exchange gifts and attend congregational prayers on a regular basis that an Islamic identity is built.

What this means in the long-term is that if the Muslim family suffers, then the state of Islam in this country will too.

The Muslim family is not immune to currents affecting all families in America. Divorce, the rise of single-parent families, the challenges of dual-earner families, the need to care for aging parents and the dramatic overhaul of the nuclear family system in general in the last 45 years are issues that affect all families.

According to New-York based Muslim sociologist Professor Ilyas Ba-Yunus, Muslims in America have a divorce rate of slightly over 30 percent, which is much smaller than the combined rate of North America of 48.6 percent. However, it is very close to the United Kingdom’s divorce rate of 33.2 percent, which is the second highest in the world.

Other statistics relating to the American family include the following:

Statistics From the US Census Bureau

Nearly half of all marriages end in divorce.
27.8 percent of families in America are one-parent families
The number of unmarried partner households has increased by 72 percent in the last decade from three million in 1990 to more than five million in 2000. These figures include both same-sex and different-sex couples.
More and more young children are being left alone. Nearly 1 out of five children between the ages of 5 and 14 regularly cared for themselves
Statistics From Other Sources
More than one million children have parents who separate or divorce each year. The National Commission on Children
More than half of Americans today have been, are or will be in one or more stepfamily situations. Stepfamily Association of America
One in two children will live in a single-parent family at some point in childhood. State of America’s Children Yearbook 2000, Children’s Defense Fund
One in three children is born to unmarried parents. State of America’s Children Yearbook 2000, Children’s Defense Fund
1 out of 5 children have a learning, emotional, or behavioral problem due to the family system changing. (National Center for Health Statistics)
More than one half of all youths incarcerated for criminal acts lived in one-parent families when they were children. (Children's Defense Fund)
Successful families don’t happen by accident. They are the result of choosing the right spouse, carefully establishing a solid partnership in the first two years of marriage, and couples seeing each other as a team, not as competitors.

Solid families engage in open communication in all aspects of life, from mundane issues like establishing a budget to big ones like how to pass the beauty of Islam on to their children.

Successful families also require a tremendous amount of patience. In practical terms, this means trying our utmost to work out conflicts through mechanisms like consultation, mediation and arbitration before deciding to divorce.

Committing to build a successful family also means rooting out all kinds of abuse ranging from domestic violence to sexual abuse.

Giving our families the proper time, care and attention will yield far greater results for Islam on this continent than anything else we do. If our children and grandchildren see Islam as an exotic cultural import to be displayed twice a year on Eid days, the mosques and schools we are racing to build today will be empty tomorrow.

One Muslim sister who married almost a decade ago sought advice from family and friends about the secret to a successful marriage. She noted that all of those she spoke to who had successful marriages identified one common denominator: good communication. Not looks, money, fame or even chemistry.

But what is good communication? We may have grown up witnessing our parents and other couples talking to each other, but were they really communicating effectively? Good communication that builds strong families occurs when family members consult each other to run their affairs. But listening is just as critical to consultation, if not more so.

Solid Muslim families are also built on a commitment to Allah that is nurtured by a connection to the Quran. In this regard, establishing a weekly family study circle in which everyone read, reflect and discuss themes of the Quran together is an invaluable tool in strengthening everyone’s commitment to God and to the family unit as a whole.

We need to evaluate our family lives and plan this month. Hold a couple of meetings with the family. Do it today, even if you have never done it before. Discuss what new skills to develop individually as well as a family. Talk about where you'd like to go on vacation; discuss how to spend your money this year and which causes to donate to. You can develop your own outline or use the one we've provided as a template to start with.

Whatever you choose to do, take the step today. Every day we lose to become stronger as Muslims and as families will be one that we will sorely regret tomorrow. Will our future generations look back in time and merely say, "I remember my grandparents used to talk about something called Islam"or will they develop into stronger Muslims than we are today? The answer lies in the steps we take now to revive our families.

[razzler]

Successful families don’t happen by accident. They are the result of choosing the right spouse, carefully establishing a solid partnership in the first two years of marriage, and couples seeing each other as a team, not as competitors.

Solid families engage in open communication in all aspects of life, from mundane issues like establishing a budget to big ones like how to pass the beauty of Islam on to their children.

Successful families also require a tremendous amount of patience. In practical terms, this means trying our utmost to work out conflicts through mechanisms like consultation, mediation and arbitration before deciding to divorce.

Committing to build a successful family also means rooting out all kinds of abuse ranging from domestic violence to sexual abuse.

Giving our families the proper time, care and attention will yield far greater results for Islam on this continent than anything else we do. If our children and grandchildren see Islam as an exotic cultural import to be displayed twice a year on Eid days, the mosques and schools we are racing to build today will be empty tomorrow.

One Muslim sister who married almost a decade ago sought advice from family and friends about the secret to a successful marriage. She noted that all of those she spoke to who had successful marriages identified one common denominator: good communication. Not looks, money, fame or even chemistry.

But what is good communication? We may have grown up witnessing our parents and other couples talking to each other, but were they really communicating effectively? Good communication that builds strong families occurs when family members consult each other to run their affairs. But listening is just as critical to consultation, if not more so.

Solid Muslim families are also built on a commitment to Allah that is nurtured by a connection to the Quran. In this regard, establishing a weekly family study circle in which everyone read, reflect and discuss themes of the Quran together is an invaluable tool in strengthening everyone’s commitment to God and to the family unit as a whole.

We need to evaluate our family lives and plan this month. Hold a couple of meetings with the family. Do it today, even if you have never done it before. Discuss what new skills to develop individually as well as a family. Talk about where you'd like to go on vacation; discuss how to spend your money this year and which causes to donate to. You can develop your own outline or use the one we've provided as a template to start with.

Whatever you choose to do, take the step today. Every day we lose to become stronger as Muslims and as families will be one that we will sorely regret tomorrow. Will our future generations look back in time and merely say, "I remember my grandparents used to talk about something called Islam"or will they develop into stronger Muslims than we are today? The answer lies in the steps we take now to revive our families.



Totally agree with these points. It is important to give time to the family and Islam more than anything else. Sadly by every passing day I see a decreasing number of Muslims. Shame and Sad to see. We here in Ottawa have formed a committee where we have lectures and discussions relating to Islam. The main idea is to attract the youth and it has been successful thus far but lots of work still to be done.

[MecnunK]

Umar

I finally read the thread *LOL*..hilarious stuff..

Anyhow I guess you know my view from the loony thread for what it is worth.

One point though I noticed and that is the theme of polygamy in this thread.. People, Polygamy is not allowed in Islam..*** is wrong with you people..

ohh and dont think I didnt notice the remark "pleasure is my business"..well I give it for free *G* ;)

Entra the E-Mullah *g* *lol*

Bottom line women and men in Islam have different rights and it is not the right of a woman to divorce husband like a husband divorces a wife.. It's the difference between an a la carte meal at a classy resturant vs Fillet'O'fish meal at macs ;)

[entralinks]

I was just stating my opinion on polygamy, like everyone else. Is opining against Islam? |-D
No it isn't. But you always have this sense of arrogance and superiority complex over people who follow or support Islam. Your comments always tend to give out this notion that they are inferior and to be accurate, dumb and stupid for what they follow.

I do believe in God because I'm a Muslim but at times I do have thoughts about whether he exists or not...it's just called curiosity.
No it isn't called curiosity. Its called weak imaan. Just can't imagine how do you switch between, first believing he's there, then the next minute, is he? And I bet the beliefs would only be getting stronger when you're in need of something, and when you've got it, again the 'curiosity' takes over. Maybe I'm wrong but to say this, have you ever doubted the existence of the person who manufactured the computer you're using? Have you seen him? No. Have you met him? No. Then how do you know he is there or has been there sometime? Its this computer thats telling you silently that yes he was there. Its the result, the effect of his actions and work that makes you believe his existence. In the same way, this universe and you yourself are the proofs of God's existence, believe in Him being there just as you believe in that manufacturer.

Other can choose to follow Islam entirely in each and every aspect however I am unable to do so. I have been gifted with a brain and common sense to figure out what is right and what isn't. As long as I'm not harming myself or others, it's okay. :-)
Of course you have both these, but are these superior to ALLAH s.w.t's wisdom, vision and knowledge? Most definitely we should use these both but only where Islam allows that, exactly which you mentioned yourself. But where the Qur'an is concerned, coming right from ALLAH, there's nothing left to think, ponder or brainache about. If its in there, thats it. It is because thats the place where the greatest of brain and the greatest of commonsense has been used, and no question breaths of a human then using his/her brain to decide.

Again surely you are gifted with both these but everyone else is as well, who knows maybe polygamists and e-mullahs are using them more than you and in the right way? The rights are not fragmented all over the place so that you have to find them one by one, we're lucky ALLAH has sent Islam as a guide, as a package, the best of gifts. Believing in Him, which you do, is enough to believe Islam is true and is worth following in life. The rights are all in there, don't try to be smarter than God in whom you place your faith, picking and choosing what 'you' deem right and wrong. If even one of His rules can be taken as wrong, it shows all of them wrong as you can then doubt any of them's validity.

Polygamy in my opinion is a form of cheating especially without consent. You should be committed to one person for your life and s/he should be the one and only. No need for any second, third spouses in this day and age.
Thats the way to go. You should have said something like this earlier in the thread without pulling in polygamists, e-mullahs, and attacking other PPers like annie etc. Your opinions are priceless indeed and thats what drives PP forward.

I am not trying to dictate anyone, just expressing my opinions. I know I have very limited knowledge on Islam because I frankly am not very religious or spiritual.
Its the same case here. :-D

But if thats so then we both should actually admit our rookieness in this regard and try and learn from people who have more knowledge than us. Its already proven to us that many things that our parents told us in our childhood which we thought as wrong, using our own brain and commonsense, and didn't obey, actually turned out to be right. It might be the same thing happening, we may believe something to be false or nonsense for now but it actually be quite true and valid.

[sajjad]

is this thing drawing to a close now...
im tired of searching for a good read here.

stop squabbling and make out now!!! yeah. thats an order and videotape it too for our viewing pleasure!

ok, im sick! u guys r probably underage but i couldnt resist saying it neways

okay time for isha now, later

[Schiller]

"ohh and dont think I didnt notice the remark "pleasure is my business"..well I give it for free *G* ;) "

:oD :oD and I thought it had gone unnoticed ;-)

[sajjad]

whats that g thang

[entralinks]

Don't know what 'g' is.


I'm working on a picture story, will unveil soon. So watch out. ;-) :-D

[Schiller]

probably giggle

or ga.... ;-)

[MecnunK]

Its' a G thang baby!!

[entralinks]

:oD :oD :oD

Mecnunk how come you never, and I mean never, use a smiley? Don't tell me they remind you of your childhood. Coz I know they do. Anyway, why never use them?

I demand to use one right now, here, Live. And if you don't, don't forget I have access to modification chamber of smiley codes on PP, and the thing you post alot ' ;) ' ... I may make it a code for a smiley, and then sadly but excitingly whenever you'll write this, a smiley may appear, and your long lasting promise of not posting a smiley, in other words, *********, ends. :?d

[MecnunK]

:oD :oD :oD

Mecnunk how come you never, and I mean never, use a smiley? Don't tell me they remind you of your childhood. Coz I know they do. Anyway, why never use them?

I demand to use one right now, here, Live. And if you don't, don't forget I have access to modification chamber of smiley codes on PP, and the thing you post alot ' ;) ' ... I may make it a code for a smiley, and then sadly but excitingly whenever you'll write this, a smiley may appear, and your long lasting promise of not posting a smiley, in other words, *********, ends. :?d

*LOL* hahahaha

Come'on that's not fair!!!! I do like smileys...in other people's posts. I do'nt have any promises as such never to use a smiley, I dunno why but I never feel the need to use one..the one i use is a wink.. ;) and on some wbsites it does have a code to convert it and boy does that pee me off..*lol* you used to have some cool ones on the last forum..

[entralinks]

I'm changing the code. http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons6/22.gif

[MecnunK]

Noooooooooo!!!

[entralinks]

:-D

Just kidding. Everyone has their own style of posting, and believe me this ' ;) ' really suits you. ;-)

However the first time I saw you, it came to my mind 'What's this punk up to?' ... anyway, where was I? http://members.aol.com/browrob549/sf/coffee.gif

[Schiller]

when i first came across mec's posts I also thought aloneg the lines of another joker here
ha ha :oD

maybe that should be a thread, your first impressions

[entralinks]

Great Idea ... you start it.

[Schiller]

just did :-D