Pakistani Air Force v Indian Air Force

[TheHK16]

looking up on it got a very mixed response from what i have read on many different sites

which air force would you say is better

in technology, training mainly

does size count cos india has a much larger airforce

[Levity]

Oh God, no!

[GOAT]

In before talks of missile superiority and India's advanced technology :yk

[shaheen1shaheen2]

pakistan is better in terms of quality they make their own fighter jets (jf17 and soon j10) they also make uav's.India has been trying for the last tnirty years to make their own fighter jet (LCA Tejas) but to no avail

[tahaqureshi]

Pakistan's missile arsenal is far superior to India's however our Air Force leaves much to be desired. They have aircraft that can outmaneuver ours any day. Even the JF-17 Thunder isn't the God of the skies.

[TheHK16]

pak airforce is better trained though

[Gabbar Singh]

PAF = better pilots.
IAF = better hardware.

[shaheen1shaheen2]

Pakistan's missile arsenal is far superior to India's however our Air Force leaves much to be desired. They have aircraft that can outmaneuver ours any day. Even the JF-17 Thunder isn't the God of the skies.
You do know pak air force has F16 block52's right,Which jet have they got that can outmanouevre that?

[ShehryarK]

PAF = better pilots.


Why do you say that, and what is it based on?

Its interesting that you say it, as it is something many Pakistanis would say; generally, not backed up with any evidence though.

Gut-feel is all very well, but I prefer to use mine for digesting food. :inzi

[PakPeace]

Pakistan

[KingKhanWC]

Why do you say that, and what is it based on?

zi

There is plenty of evidence to back this up but these two should be enough.

In 1965 over 100 IAF planes were downed while less than 20 PAF planes.

and this

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/45-of-iaf-air-crashes-due-to-human-error-20259.php

India have more money are one of the highest spenders on military equipment on the planet at present.

However since Nukes have come into the game it doesn't matter anymore.

[cricketloverindia]

I think Pakistan is better than India at everything. :asif

[12cavalry]

I think Pakistan is better that India at everything. :asif

but as we all know its the other way round...isnt it :yk

[Rayaan]

Current PAF Fighter levels are :

1. F-16 US made aircraft
Block A/B years of supply 1984-86 25 year old planes Total = 31
Block A/B years of supply 2006-10 18 year old planes refurbished Total = 18
Block C/D years of supply 2008-10 new Total = 14

2. JF 17 Chinese- Pk made aircraft
Block I year of delivery 2008 to date new Total = 32 ( further continuing deliveries expected )


1. and 2. are relatively modern aircraft which will bear the brunt of any future conflict.

Remainder are obsolete aircraft which may be expected to attack targets of opportunity when the enemy aircraft are away from theatre of operations or to be utilised in defence of airfields, atomic reactors, strategic routes and railways , dams or to be used as ground attack units.

3. PAF F 7 (Chinese made aircraft) aircraft of varying ages from 30 year old planes to 9 year old planes ( last delivery 2002)
approx 150-180 aircraft main drawbacks are short range, inability to carry BVR radars, BVR missiles and lack of datalinking.
main strengths: agile and likely to be used for airbase defence and big city defences

4. Mirages III, V ( French aircraft ) various models and configurations 40 year old design and planes .
approx 150 +
strengths : approx 70 planes have been upgraded to reasonable levels of radars and equippment
drawback : very very old ... prone to crashes due to airframe or engine fatigue. range better than F7 's . Maybe used in offensive role or in maritime role ... defence of Karachi or ship escorts .

[Rayaan]

Pakistan's plan is to induct

Approx 150-250 JF17 which is a fighter bomber which will do alot of the defensive work for Pakistan & replace the older planes in our stock

It will also induct the J10 which I think is on par with the F16 i am not sure in how many numbers

The F16 will be our front line fighter backed by all the rest



There is talk of Pakistani interest in the J20 however Pakistan's policy is to wait and see how the plane developed


The J17 is a great start for Pakistan and fighter plane we can build ourselves to do alot of the heavy work and take pressure off our front line fighters

[C++]

From what I have read, Pakistani pilots, due to limited number of planes, spare parts and limited funds, are more superior skill-wise to their Indian counterparts.

However, Indian air force includes superior jets, many more planes in terms of number, and have much more resources.

[Looney]

Indians will say India's and Pakistanis will say Pakistan's so is that even a question ?

[tahaqureshi]

You do know pak air force has F16 block52's right,Which jet have they got that can outmanouevre that?

Weren't those block 52's stripped of a lot of essential technology? From what I can remember, the 'refurbished' jets we got lost a lot of their maneuvering capabilities.

[tahaqureshi]

Indians will say India's and Pakistanis will say Pakistan's so is that even a question ?

I'm sure there are some people on both sides who can be a bit more objective and debate the true merits of each others Air Forces

[kingusama92]

Pakistani pilots are better cause my cousin is one. :P

[Patriot]

Indian air force is superior. They have around 150 SU 30MKI, which is on par with the F15E strike eagle. We on the other hand only have 18 F16 C/D Block 52 (about the same gen as the SU 30MKI).

We do have around 40 JF 17 thunders but that is a 4th gen plane whereas the SU 30 MKI, F15E strike eagle and and the F16 C/D Block 52 are all 4+ gen. Plus India will soon get the Hal Tejas to counter our thunders (same gen as thunder). Although, we really don't know how good that is as yet, and currently they have zero Tejas. India also has around 70 Mig 29 planes which are also 4th gen like the thunder.

The IAF has also asked companies to bid for their MRCA deal for 126 fighters. However this deal will take quite a few years to materialise. The lead aircraft for this deal is the Eurofighter Typhoon (4+ gen). We on the other hand might get the J-10 B (around 36 - Musharraf signed a deal for 36 initially but the figure might increase) from the Chinese (which is also a 4+ gen). J-10 is not as good as the Typhoon (tried and trusted plane, whereas the J-10 is new).

India is also getting a 5th gen plane called the T-50 from the Russians by 2020. We don't have any plans to get a 5th gen because we can't afford one. However the Chinese have recently unveiled their new 5th gen plane, so we might see those in our inventory in the future.

I have only mentioned the 4th gen plus fighters for both countries. Other types of planes like bombers, attack planes, UAV, UCAVs, refuelling, transport etc are not mentioned. India is also superior in these types of planes as well.

Don't be disheartened though, from hearing all this. PAF has a different strategy to IAF. Our aim is purely for defence purposes, whereas IAF's strategy is also for offence. Therefore whatever we procure it is for the defence of Pakistan. Our JF-17 will be the main workhorse (we are planning to build hundreds) whereas the F16 will be the main strike fighters. These planes together with our SAMs and AWACS can neutralise most of what the Indians throw at us, especially considering the fact that due to our defensive strategy we will be fighting at home so we will know more about the area and we will have less problems with re-equipping and refuelling.

Of course I have only explained a hypothetical scenario where both air forces are at war. I sincerely hope that this scenario does not come true because avoiding war is the best policy and also because it will be very bad for the whole region.

[ahsan17]

We'll probably get more F-16s, and in addition our current F-16s will be converted to Block 52 standard.

We're getting J-10s, that too in large numbers, which are said to be comparable to Block 60 F-16s.

On top of that, our JF-17s will have incremental upgrades after each set of 50.

Right now Indian airforce is much superior, but the gap is going to decrease significantly within the next 5-7 years.

[Patriot]

J-10's may be in the same gen as the F16 Block 60 but are not as good. F16 have been around for decades as the main workhorse for the USAF. J-10 are new planes which have not been tested under combat.

[saqlain]

Pakistan's missile arsenal is far superior to India's however our Air Force leaves much to be desired. They have aircraft that can outmaneuver ours any day. Even the JF-17 Thunder isn't the God of the skies.

All India needs is a missile which can travel 100 miles :) And guess what they have plenty of those ;)

[saqlain]

pak airforce is better trained though

Really??? Have you read or study on the training of Pakistani and Indian piolots???

[saqlain]

PAF = better pilots.
IAF = better hardware.

Based on what?

[saqlain]

In terms of training, I think Pakistani and Indian pilots are very much a like. They maybe good but they will never become the "very best" in the world. The reason for that is the cost of keeping the plane war ready is very expensive. It is easy for many of us to talk here but the cost of each sortie is very high. Country like Pakistan, which does not have a huge defense budget is not capable of flying their F-16s due to the huge cost of fuel and spare parts, as those parts can be shut down from the US. On the other hand, Indian pilots, in the last 10 years or so, are making many improvements in their training structure. Also,India's bigger defense budget allow Indians to buy better planes and better training facilities, thus resulting in to having better pilots.

As far hardware is concern, India has a much upper hand. Despite Pakistan having F-16s, the newer Russian planes which India has can compete with any top of the line American fighters. F-16 is an aging or old plane.

[tahaqureshi]

All India needs is a missile which can travel 100 miles :) And guess what they have plenty of those ;)

lol have you seen how many of their missile tests have absolutely failed? :))) :)))

it would take them ages to finally get one across the border.

[Patriot]

In terms of training, I think Pakistani and Indian pilots are very much a like. They maybe good but they will never become the "very best" in the world. The reason for that is the cost of keeping the plane war ready is very expensive. It is easy for many of us to talk here but the cost of each sortie is very high. Country like Pakistan, which does not have a huge defense budget is not capable of flying their F-16s due to the huge cost of fuel and spare parts, as those parts can be shut down from the US. On the other hand, Indian pilots, in the last 10 years or so, are making many improvements in their training structure. Also,India's bigger defense budget allow Indians to buy better planes and better training facilities, thus resulting in to having better pilots.

As far hardware is concern, India has a much upper hand. Despite Pakistan having F-16s, the newer Russian planes which India has can compete with any top of the line American fighters. F-16 is an aging or old plane.

A lot of Pak pilots get training from Saudi and other ME countries. As for F16, yes I agree that it's an ageing plane but at block 52 it can still compete with the MKI (although MKI is a bit better). At that level where both planes can compete it all comes down to pilot skills.

[khankhan]

Yet another stupid and meaningless thread.

[Patriot]

lol have you seen how many of their missile tests have absolutely failed? :))) :)))

it would take them ages to finally get one across the border.

Are you talking about ICBMs or air-to-ground or are you talking about air-to-air missiles. If its air-to-air then what are you smoking. India has BVR missles and can afford to purchase more.

[batfirst]

All of Pakistans old F16's are getting upgraded in in Turkey to block 50-52. Pak will also purchase J10B Vigorous Dragon which are more advanced than the F16 block 50-52.

[the Great Khan]

who is superior? well depends what they want to do..if fighting on the enemies turf is a requirment then the IAF has the better capability to do so and prolong it. In purely a defensive task then the PAF can holds it own. Our job is simply to deter,counter and inflict damage on a vastly numerically superior adversary. Before the nuke threshhold is reached. The likely chance is we will face massive attrition but will also inflict large damage too..

Pakistans whole defence is based on deterence and nukes..the PF has a role of defence and counter attack...the idea is to use ballistic missiles and cruise missiles to saturate Indian airfields in teh first minutes of a war and then try and even the odds as much as possible before a ceasefire can be agreed! the indians have too many planes..the pilots dont even matter anymore, its numbers that count!!

[s2k]

There is plenty of evidence to back this up but these two should be enough.

In 1965 over 100 IAF planes were downed while less than 20 PAF planes.

and this

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/45-of-iaf-air-crashes-due-to-human-error-20259.php

India have more money are one of the highest spenders on military equipment on the planet at present.

However since Nukes have come into the game it doesn't matter anymore.

Your 1965 stats are wrong......

And you forgot the 1971 war when the IAF had complete air superiority over PAF......

Indian has more superior planes than PAF and also more in nos...

Also IAF pilots have trained and even beaten USAF and RAF pilots in defence exercises.

IAF have mor3 than 170 Su 30 MKIS(a total of 230 to be inducted) that should take care of any F 16s or JF 17s etc....

Also about 50 Mirage 2005 Mk 2 plus Mig 29sSMT

Experts have raise a few doubts abt JF 17s capability as though it has been developed by China the PLAAF have refused to buy even a single JF 17.Anyways by the time Pakistan gets its total of JF 17s India will have 126+ MMRCA.....which will be superior to any JF 17.

Add to that the LCA and the T-50 5th gen air fighter by 2017.

So in forseeable future IAF will have an edge over PAF

[KingKhanWC]

Your 1965 stats are wrong......


According to you.

Either way it's all about nukes now. India isn't stupid enough to go all out war with Pakistan anymore. :)

[s2k]

According to you.

Either way it's all about nukes now. India isn't stupid enough to go all out war with Pakistan anymore. :)

And India doesnt have nukes?India wont use them?What makes you think so?

Post the link of a neutral source which backs ur stat of 1965 war......

[kingusama92]

A lot of Pak pilots get training from Saudi and other ME countries. As for F16, yes I agree that it's an ageing plane but at block 52 it can still compete with the MKI (although MKI is a bit better). At that level where both planes can compete it all comes down to pilot skills.

My cousin is going for a six month training session in the US.

So, the air force is quite well trained.

This is his second such session.

[Patriot]

Your 1965 stats are wrong......

And you forgot the 1971 war when the IAF had complete air superiority over PAF......

Indian has more superior planes than PAF and also more in nos...

Also IAF pilots have trained and even beaten USAF and RAF pilots in defence exercises.

IAF have mor3 than 170 Su 30 MKIS(a total of 230 to be inducted) that should take care of any F 16s or JF 17s etc....

Also about 50 Mirage 2005 Mk 2 plus Mig 29sSMT

Experts have raise a few doubts abt JF 17s capability as though it has been developed by China the PLAAF have refused to buy even a single JF 17.Anyways by the time Pakistan gets its total of JF 17s India will have 126+ MMRCA.....which will be superior to any JF 17.

Add to that the LCA and the T-50 5th gen air fighter by 2017.

So in forseeable future IAF will have an edge over PAF

Lol, you just copied my whole post (except I didn't include the MK2's). BTW 2017 is a bit too early for the T-50, most likely it will be 2020. As for the defence exercises well I wouldn't look into them too much because they are only exercises. If it comes to the real deal, things would be different. China didn't produce any JF-17 because they have the J-11 and J-10's plus they are producing their own 5th gen fighter. No need to compare JF-17 with MKI's or MMRCA because there isn't any comparison really, because they belong to different gens.

[s2k]

Lol, you just copied my whole post (except I didn't include the MK2's). BTW 2017 is a bit too early for the T-50, most likely it will be 2020. As for the defence exercises well I wouldn't look into them too much because they are only exercises. If it comes to the real deal, things would be different. China didn't produce any JF-17 because they have the J-11 and J-10's plus they are producing their own 5th gen fighter. No need to compare JF-17 with MKI's or MMRCA because there isn't any comparison really, because they belong to different gens.

Well i didnt read your post.....Sorry read it now....

Actually as thing stands PAkistan dont have any 4.5 generation or 4+ generation Aircrafts....

I have serious doubts that China will be able to produce a 5th gen fighter before Russia,China hasnt still developed its own figter aircraft engine.They wont get any Russian 5th gen engine because the Russian engine development is 50% funded by India and wont be given to China.So unless they develop a 5th gen engine the fighter programme wont take off.The recent flight of the 5th gen fighter was with a WS-10 engine.A upgraded version of RD-93 which was to be used in J10 but hasnt still been developed enough for use.So its a long time.

JF 17 s at $15+ million is a waste for Pakistan because at the end of the day they wont stand againist MKI MMRCA and may just about match the MK2 Mirage and the Mig 29s.Pakistan should have gone for a better aircraft.

[saqlain]

lol have you seen how many of their missile tests have absolutely failed? :))) :)))

it would take them ages to finally get one across the border.

If it failed so what??? It only tells them where the problem is and it is the job of the scientist and engineers to fix the problem.

Would it fair to say that the only reason Pakistani missiles do not failed because they are already tested by Chinese and North Koreans??

[Patriot]

The F16 52 block is a 4+ gen aircraft, just like the MKI (although MKI is better). China has managed to produce the WS-10, so I'm sure that they will be able to make a better engine for their 5th gen fighter. However we aren't really talking about China in this thread, and I really don't see Pak getting a 5th gen untill 2030.

The Thunder isn't really a waste because it's supposed to be the workhorse of the PAF and it's a start towards our own independence in producing future fighters (I understand that it was made by China with joint Pak funding but we get TOT - you have to start from somewhere right). Also with our AWACS and SAM'S our strategy is purely defence and we are capable of that in case of a fight. But I sincerely hope that doesn't happen because it would be bad for the whole region.

I also believe that Pak shouldn't spend so much on these toys because too much money is going to the military (that's India as well). We should think of our long term and divert the money towards health, education, infrastructure, economy, industry, etc. That is why I hate the top brass of the Pakistani military because they have created this illusion that India is forever our enemy and that we need to spend as much on weapons as possible. They have done this in order to steal money from the Pakistani people. I'm sure you would agree that the arms race in that region is crazy (India, Pak and China).

[saqlain]

A lot of Pak pilots get training from Saudi and other ME countries. As for F16, yes I agree that it's an ageing plane but at block 52 it can still compete with the MKI (although MKI is a bit better). At that level where both planes can compete it all comes down to pilot skills.

I am absolutely sure and Pakistanis should get training in the US because part of their fleet has US made planes. You can not go to Russia or China to get trained on F-16s.

Those who are comparing the Air Force of both countries during the 1965 War or 1971 are simply not fair. A lot has changed in both countries and around the world during this time. There is no question India has superior Airforce and Navy and Pakistanis know this very well. Pakistan's Airforce only mission is to keep the Indian planes within their territory and thats it. For that purpose Pakistan has enough firepower. I dont think Pakistan has plans to send its planes to other countries or do exercises with ally countries.

[Patriot]

I am absolutely sure and Pakistanis should get training in the US because part of their fleet has US made planes. You can not go to Russia or China to get trained on F-16s.

Those who are comparing the Air Force of both countries during the 1965 War or 1971 are simply not fair. A lot has changed in both countries and around the world during this time. There is no question India has superior Airforce and Navy and Pakistanis know this very well. Pakistan's Airforce only mission is to keep the Indian planes within their territory and thats it. For that purpose Pakistan has enough firepower. I dont think Pakistan has plans to send its planes to other countries or do exercises with ally countries.

Agree with your post except the part about exercises. Pakistan takes full advantage of the exercises with other countries. With regards to the Indian navy you have to realise that India has a much larger coast and therefore it is necessary for them to have a better navy. Although in the past our submarines have been of good quality.

BTW are you Indian or Pakistani

[s2k]

The F16 52 block is a 4+ gen aircraft, just like the MKI (although MKI is better). China has managed to produce the WS-10, so I'm sure that they will be able to make a better engine for their 5th gen fighter. However we aren't really talking about China in this thread, and I really don't see Pak getting a 5th gen untill 2030.

The Thunder isn't really a waste because it's supposed to be the workhorse of the PAF and it's a start towards our own independence in producing future fighters (I understand that it was made by China with joint Pak funding but we get TOT - you have to start from somewhere right). Also with our AWACS and SAM'S our strategy is purely defence and we are capable of that in case of a fight. But I sincerely hope that doesn't happen because it would be bad for the whole region.

I also believe that Pak shouldn't spend so much on these toys because too much money is going to the military (that's India as well). We should think of our long term and divert the money towards health, education, infrastructure, economy, industry, etc. That is why I hate the top brass of the Pakistani military because they have created this illusion that India is forever our enemy and that we need to spend as much on weapons as possible. They have done this in order to steal money from the Pakistani people. I'm sure you would agree that the arms race in that region is crazy (India, Pak and China).

Well the MKI as you youself said is better than F 16 block 52 also
the MMRCA is going to be superior to any F16.

WS 10 has some serious reliability issues i guess you know that.Also any 5th gen Plane will cost at least in the region of 100million per plane.....so financially it may be too much for Pakistan.

Regarding the JF 17 you may have got TOT on many issues but the main issue is that you still cant produce the engine.Only 4-5 countries have the requisite technology for making a jet engine,USA France Russia UK and China to an extent.

Well the Army in Pakistan has for long played the India card and enjoyed a lavish lifestyle and an image of being above the law.

[GOAT]

Guys, no point in replying to Saqlain. He's just an Indian trying to wind you guys up - don't fall for it.

[Patriot]

Yeah there is no argument that the MMRCA will be better, I mean the Typhoon (most likely bet) against F16 lol.

Yeah the engine does have problems but it's their first one, so I'm confident that they can improve. No one expected China to produce a prototype 5th gen this quickly did they, but they proved everyone wrong (we have to realise that China is still 50 years behind the US in terms of tech). Also the cost will be very expensive for PAK, that is why I'm saying 2030. Hopefully by then it would be cheaper and our economy will be better, plus i want both countries to improve relations so that a scenario that we our discussing won't happen.

[saqlain]

Agree with your post except the part about exercises. Pakistan takes full advantage of the exercises with other countries. With regards to the Indian navy you have to realise that India has a much larger coast and therefore it is necessary for them to have a better navy. Although in the past our submarines have been of good quality.

BTW are you Indian or Pakistani

I am glad that you agree with me on some point, Thank you :)

I agree that India has no choice but to spend and invest heavily on its Airforce and Navy because of their size. The only time one can know about the quality and performance when certain hardware or military is tested. There is only one country in the world who is testing its troops and its superority all over the world. They are good because they go everywhere and in all sorts of environment. I think they are setting the benchmarks. Now you can compare both Pakistan and India with that country and you will know exactly how good these two are? Or if they are.

As far who I am, I think I have given you a clue ;)

[saqlain]

Guys, no point in replying to Saqlain. He's just an Indian trying to wind you guys up - don't fall for it.

Thats a great comeback :)

[Patriot]

I am glad that you agree with me on some point, Thank you :)

I agree that India has no choice but to spend and invest heavily on its Airforce and Navy because of their size. The only time one can know about the quality and performance when certain hardware or military is tested. There is only one country in the world who is testing its troops and its superority all over the world. They are good because they go everywhere and in all sorts of environment. I think they are setting the benchmarks. Now you can compare both Pakistan and India with that country and you will know exactly how good these two are? Or if they are.

As far who I am, I think I have given you a clue ;)

Well that country has a military budget of a trillion lol so no comparisons with the rest of the world really.

[Patriot]

Saqlain and S2K are either military professionals or engineer students. So which one is it guys, fess up.

[saqlain]

Well that country has a military budget of a trillion lol so no comparisons with the rest of the world really.

BTW it is not a trillion $ but yes it is huge.

That is precisely what my point is that it takes a lot of bucks to maintain a superior force whether its Army, Airforce or Navy. Having planes or just the hardware does not mean alot. Because at the end of the day you need someone to fly or use that hardware. India is buying alot of hardware, thanks to their booming economy, but I am not sure if they are putting alot in the training and infrastructure. Same goes for Pakistan, simply having F-16s does not make Pakistan a formidable force but the coordination between the signals or intelligence and the ground is important. So you need a very smart command and control system which knows how to use all different ingredients tactfully.

For example, what would you do if you have planes? If the purpose is to just shoot the enemy planes but then it will only happen if the enemy's plane is in sight or is spotted. What if the enemy's planes are not airbore then what? So there is whole lot more than just having planes.

[saqlain]

Saqlain and S2K are either military professionals or engineer students. So which one is it guys, fess up.

How about someone who is doing research and knows what they are talking as oppose to just typing anything out of pure excitement????

[Patriot]

BTW it is not a trillion $ but yes it is huge.

That is precisely what my point is that it takes a lot of bucks to maintain a superior force whether its Army, Airforce or Navy. Having planes or just the hardware does not mean alot. Because at the end of the day you need someone to fly or use that hardware. India is buying alot of hardware, thanks to their booming economy, but I am not sure if they are putting alot in the training and infrastructure. Same goes for Pakistan, simply having F-16s does not make Pakistan a formidable force but the coordination between the signals or intelligence and the ground is important. So you need a very smart command and control system which knows how to use all different ingredients tactfully.

For example, what would you do if you have planes? If the purpose is to just shoot the enemy planes but then it will only happen if the enemy's plane is in sight or is spotted. What if the enemy's planes are not airbore then what? So there is whole lot more than just having planes.

Nobody is denying the point that having planes on their own isn't enough. But I also don't agree with the point some people here are making that the Pakistani pilots are more skilled than other pilots. Have they seen the training of Pakistani and Indian pilots to say this? Or are they just spreading something that others have told them? BTW Pakistani pilots do get training on other platforms like the F15 because countries like Saudi contracts them. So you can't just say that training is poor. Plus these are professional military bodies. I'm sure they have as sophisticated command system which relies on real time intelligence data.

How about someone who is doing research and knows what they are talking as oppose to just typing anything out of pure excitement????

No need to have a heart attack. I was just trying to lighten the mood.

[Patriot]

Guys, no point in replying to Saqlain. He's just an Indian trying to wind you guys up - don't fall for it.

He seems like a Pakistani to me. And so what if he is an Indian. His posts on this thread are a lot better and more knowledgeable than others who are just constantly saying that Pakistani pilots are better without any evidence.

[s2k]

Saqlain and S2K are either military professionals or engineer students. So which one is it guys, fess up.


Sir i am neither....i am a mechanic.....i repair human beings....Kabhi kabhi log hamein pyaar se DOCTOR kehte hai...

[riasat]

Specially to Pakistan, my request would be to stop spending money on these toys. You are only denying education to the poor with these weapons. Correct me if I am wrong, the aim of the Nuclear bomb was to ensure India never attacks pakistan. Why do u need these fighters anyways

[C++]

Specially to Pakistan, my request would be to stop spending money on these toys. You are only denying education to the poor with these weapons. Correct me if I am wrong, the aim of the Nuclear bomb was to ensure India never attacks pakistan. Why do u need these fighters anyways

Every nation on Earth - from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe need to stop purchasing weapons.

Weapons are meant to do one thing only - kill people.

[the Great Khan]

Well the MKI as you youself said is better than F 16 block 52 also
the MMRCA is going to be superior to any F16.

WS 10 has some serious reliability issues i guess you know that.Also any 5th gen Plane will cost at least in the region of 100million per plane.....so financially it may be too much for Pakistan.

Regarding the JF 17 you may have got TOT on many issues but the main issue is that you still cant produce the engine.Only 4-5 countries have the requisite technology for making a jet engine,USA France Russia UK and China to an extent.

Well the Army in Pakistan has for long played the India card and enjoyed a lavish lifestyle and an image of being above the law.


The MKI has a massive radar signature and has its weaknesses that the block 52 can exploit..remember the likely chance is they will not go up against each other...

no the 5th gen aircraft namely the J20 will be cheaper..however we will be modifying the JF17 to block 2 configuration and this will contain many of the advantages of a 4.5 gen aircraft at a cheap cost..

we will also be purchasing a modified version of the J10 which will have many class a s 4.5 gen fighter..it can also hold its own agains the sukhois..

we are holding air excercises against Chine as we speak called Shaheen 1.

we also participated in red flag and have also participated in excercises in the middle east with the US,Jordan and others..this particular excercise included the raptor..

we are out numbered and perhaps outgunned but wars are not won on paper and the objective is to deter,counter attack and hold off the enemy..both the F16 block 52's and the J10 will allow deep strike of required but this will mostly be done by our large missile force..the PAF is fully capable of doing so..

Pakistani pilots are also deputised to the Turkish airforce and have flown against the Typhoon and have been very successful against these airforces in these excercises..


as for the two wars, the kill ratios were closer in 71 than in 65 but the IAF did not have full air superiority but did gave a better account of themselves than in 65...in both instances our "friends" turned the other cheek and we fought alone with extreme gallantry against a numerically superior foe who had modern weapons!

[Romali_rotti]

pakistan is better in terms of quality they make their own fighter jets (jf17 and soon j10) they also make uav's.India has been trying for the last tnirty years to make their own fighter jet (LCA Tejas) but to no avail

COme out of Lala land, Your Ching Chong friends across the border own copyrights for that........

[the Great Khan]

COme out of Lala land, Your Ching Chong friends across the border own copyrights for that........

actually 80% of the JF17 is being manufactured in Pakistan and is an excellent acheivement for a country like ours( crap uni's, rubbish education system, corrupt politicians, constant war etc etc)..

but I believe the Indians also produce the SU30 via licence..where there is a difference is that we have had input in the design process like the tejas..our industrial base is nothing compared to yours hence the reliance on our Chinese friends..ignore the children above they dont really know what their talking about!

[Romali_rotti]

actually 80% of the JF17 is being manufactured in Pakistan and is an excellent acheivement for a country like ours( crap uni's, rubbish education system, corrupt politicians, constant war etc etc)..

but I believe the Indians also produce the SU30 via licence..where there is a difference is that we have had input in the design process like the tejas..our industrial base is nothing compared to yours hence the reliance on our Chinese friends..ignore the children above they dont really know what their talking about!

GK

Tejas has been an embarassing venture for Indian military they have been at it for over 20 years and still cant get it right...... I have heard Indians brag about their Engineering & Science backgrounds so surely it shouldnt take this long ?? Best thing for India is to buy Russian made planes; the Sukhoi PAK FA 5th generation fighter jet which is a joint Russia/India project will be a game changer in the Asian region make no mistake China will feel its influence when we get it from the Russians.. These babys apparently cost about 60-70 Mil per plane and would be in the same league as the F 35....

[Eagle_Eye]

What are the chances that the airbases will be taken out by missiles by the respective countries if war on the scale of 65 or 71 broke out? Both would look silly wasting so much money

[the Great Khan]

GK

Tejas has been an embarassing venture for Indian military they have been at it for over 20 years and still cant get it right...... I have heard Indians brag about their Engineering & Science backgrounds so surely it shouldnt take this long ?? Best thing for India is to buy Russian made planes; the Sukhoi PAK FA 5th generation fighter jet which is a joint Russia/India project will be a game changer in the Asian region make no mistake China will feel its influence when we get it from the Russians.. These babys apparently cost about 60-70 Mil per plane and would be in the same league as the F 35....



well yes and no..you have to understand that india in he late 80's and 90's was suffering from a closed economy..some say this also helped with the boom years currently..the tejas is a product of those years..but yes you are right..you should be miles ahead of us in this area..Im not really sure why not..

the PAK FA is an interesting concept and more will be revealed soon but the Chinese have also revealed the J20 which is a stealth aircraft like the raptor..they will also be developing a lightweight version which will esssentially be a jf17 with some bells and whistles to coutner the f35..we will have access to all of this technology too...also your country has recently realised that we are not their major threat but China is a much bigger threat and have begun reorganising its armed forces to also keep an eye on teh northern borders not just the west...

personally i think peace is long overdue and India should really chill out when it comes to pakistan centric weapons..there is no more need..economics and wealth creation will bring peace..thats what both sides should concentrate on!

[the Great Khan]

What are the chances that the airbases will be taken out by missiles by the respective countries if war on the scale of 65 or 71 broke out? Both would look silly wasting so much money

we can take out some airbases but not all of them..many of indias bases will escape a barrage and we must be prepared to coutner their aircraft in our skies..they also have an aircraft carrier and are getting anotehr one..they have also been offered the eurofighter typhoon navy version!

[ahsan17]

J-10's may be in the same gen as the F16 Block 60 but are not as good. F16 have been around for decades as the main workhorse for the USAF. J-10 are new planes which have not been tested under combat.

True, but neither have been most of India's planes. In fact, I believe of all their modern planes, only MIG-29s have been through combat (by other countries who have MIG-29s).

[s2k]

The MKI has a massive radar signature and has its weaknesses that the block 52 can exploit..remember the likely chance is they will not go up against each other...


MKI is India's premier fighter so f 16 will be pitted againist it.MKI has a better radar and also better BVR capabilities.Remember the USAF F 16s were outmanouvered by MKIs and those F 16s were a lot more advanced.


no the 5th gen aircraft namely the J20 will be cheaper..however we will be modifying the JF17 to block 2 configuration and this will contain many of the advantages of a 4.5 gen aircraft at a cheap cost..

we will also be purchasing a modified version of the J10 which will have many class a s 4.5 gen fighter..it can also hold its own agains the sukhois..

The J20 will not be much cheaper,remember the F22 costs 250mil plus and the T 50 will cost 100mill so any 5th gen aircraft will cost smwer near 70 to 100 mill.Whether PAF can afford that is another question..

The Chinese dont hv a functional 4th gen engine let alone a 5th gen one.Neither do they have a working AESA on par with what europeans have or USAF have or Russians have.

The JF17 block 2 will feature a IFR probe and a WS 10 engine if China can make that engine work.No AESA radar.

All of India's MMRCA and the Upgraded MKIs will be better than the PAF's present fighters.

The PAF fighters will be on par with the Mirage 2000 mark 2.

J 10 is not the premier fighter of PLAAF.It is is the SU 30 MKK,the MKK is just about on par with MKI.Though the MKI has better avionics.So J 10 will never match the MKK let alone the MKI.


we are holding air excercises against Chine as we speak called Shaheen 1.

With all due respect to the chinese,their Airforce has no experience in a real war.Anyways its always good to hold those exercises.

we also participated in red flag and have also participated in excercises in the middle east with the US,Jordan and others..this particular excercise included the raptor..

I have read about it ,but i am yet to find a review of the PAF in that exercise.Will be thankful if you can provide one.

we are out numbered and perhaps outgunned but wars are not won on paper and the objective is to deter,counter attack and hold off the enemy..both the F16 block 52's and the J10 will allow deep strike of required but this will mostly be done by our large missile force..the PAF is fully capable of doing so..


Indias strategy will be to cripple the Pakistani missiles.Any attack by long range ballastic missiles will open PAkistan to a retaliation by India with nuclear weapons.PAF will not be able to hold off the IAF in long war and IAF may be able to cripple PAkistan's missiles.Anyways i hope it never comes to a war between the 2 countries.



Pakistani pilots are also deputised to the Turkish airforce and have flown against the Typhoon and have been very successful against these airforces in these excercises..


as for the two wars, the kill ratios were closer in 71 than in 65 but the IAF did not have full air superiority but did gave a better account of themselves than in 65...in both instances our "friends" turned the other cheek and we fought alone with extreme gallantry against a numerically superior foe who had modern weapons!


In 1965 war PAF was the superior force with better fighters,IAF manged to hold PAF on a defensive line allowing our ground forces to make advance.

1971 the IAF had complete air superiority over PAF.

[ahsan17]

J-10A is not touted to be one of China's premier fighter, however J-10B is being said to be such. When you consider the fact that J-10B will be comparable to F-16 Block 60 (which is superior to MKI), and then add to that the fact that FC-20 will be a further upgrade of J-10B, then it doesn't sound so bad for Pakistan. Especially considering that Pakistan will probably get about 150 FC-20s.

[s2k]

J-10A is not touted to be one of China's premier fighter, however J-10B is being said to be such. When you consider the fact that J-10B will be comparable to F-16 Block 60 (which is superior to MKI), and then add to that the fact that FC-20 will be a further upgrade of J-10B, then it doesn't sound so bad for Pakistan. Especially considering that Pakistan will probably get about 150 FC-20s.

J-10b wont be superior to F 16 block 60.IAF has flown a more advanced version of the F16 which was offered for MMRCA and they dont think it is superior to the MKI.

FC 20 is the name of the J10b that PAF will get.The PLAAF is still to get a J10 b so it will be some time

[Eagle_Eye]

Missiles on Andaman Islands and the eastern bases on one side and on Sargodha on the other..... Up in smoke the billions of dollars.... and we are all back to square one!

[SAF]

Pak's military tech(including Nukes) as a whole is much better than India's atm because we are spending so much $$$ on it.

[s2k]

Pak's military tech(including Nukes) as a whole is much better than India's atm because we are spending so much $$$ on it.

Source?

[saqlain]

Source?

You will never get that answer or source because it does not exist :)

[the Great Khan]

To S2k: sorry can't answer all your points coz I'm on an iPhone, but the Chinese have tested and integrated heir ws10 on both the j10 and j11..we are waiting for it to be given the all clear for the j10b..

we don't need the j10 to be overtly superior to the su30..it just needs to hold it's own which it can..our doctrine fits around this..also we have mig 29's and mirages to worry about too..a combination of thunders, blk52's and j10b's with air defence will be more than enough to hold off strategic strikes..

As yu mentioned you'll have to take out our widely dispersed missile sites and airfields in a blitz like first strike..any failure will allow a counter attack..also the pag's aim is to reduce your bvr threat hence why wvr will be very important in a pak India battle..

Finally to my fellow Pakistani above who made that statement..lol..Bacha hay..ignore..

[the Great Khan]

To S2k: sorry can't answer all your points coz I'm on an iPhone, but the Chinese have tested and integrated heir ws10 on both the j10 and j11..we are waiting for it to be given the all clear for the j10b..

we don't need the j10 to be overtly superior to the su30..it just needs to hold it's own which it can..our doctrine fits around this..also we have mig 29's and mirages to worry about too..a combination of thunders, blk52's and j10b's with air defence will be more than enough to hold off strategic strikes..

As yu mentioned you'll have to take out our widely dispersed missile sites and airfields in a blitz like first strike..any failure will allow a counter attack..also the pag's aim is to reduce your bvr threat hence why wvr will be very important in a pak India battle..

Finally to my fellow Pakistani above who made that statement..lol..Bacha hay..ignore..