Time for civilians to challenge the military?

[Blistering Barnacle]

With the Osama fiasco, many are arguing that now is the time to challenge the military's dominance over Pakistan's affairs.

The military is responsible for most, if not all, Pak's historical blunders and have brought the nation to its knees.

I'm no Nawaz fan, but at least he is demanding an independent inquiry into the Osama fiasco, instead of asking the military to do it, as the PPP has done.

Here are some good articles on it:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011\05\13\story_13-5-2011_pg1_8

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/13052011/page1.shtml

http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/13/the-right-goal-at-the-wrong-time.html

[ahsan88]

Not gonna happen in the for-see-able future, military's stranglehold over the public is too strong, and some of the top most feudal's, bureaucrats, media-barons are content with the status-quo.

[ahsan88]

Ayub's takeover, 65 war, 71 fiasco (Bhutto is to blame as well), Zia's myopic and inhumane regime, Siachen lost, meddling in politics in the 90’s, Kargil, Musharraf, War on terror, killing and abducting Baloch youth.

Not to mention numerous land, financial scandals the top army officers have been involved in.

If the Army can survive all that and still maintain it's position and the dominant power in the land, tw ab kya badal jayega?

[Blistering Barnacle]

There is a lot of internal and external pressure at the moment on the military.

I don't think there was a major internal public outcry against the army even after Kargil. However, people have not forgotten about Kargil - people like Nawaz Sharif, who was deposed soon after.

It sounds like he's coming after the army and trying to settle once and for all who should be in charge - the civlians or the army. And the public is in a very unsympathetic mood to the army, which is also why the army is so furious with America.

Maybe nothing much will come of it, but in recent years we've seen civilians get rid of Musharraf and re-install the chief justice.

Maybe people will also take inspiration from the "Arab spring" or whatever its called.

[Poison]

No.

[Blistering Barnacle]

The world is also a lot more connected now and Pakistanis have access to a lot more free media.

[howzzat]

in before "people born in army families" start bashing the OP

[Blistering Barnacle]

in before "people born in army families" start bashing the OP

I'm sure a lot of army people would like to see the army stay out of politics as well and just do their job of defending the country and being subordinate to the people of Pakistan - not the other way around.

[howzzat]

The world is also a lot more connected now and Pakistanis have access to a lot more free media.

there are many articles in various pakistani newspapers talking about some jornos/anchors suspected of working for ISI (obviously for money). who are they referring to?

[ahsan88]

there are many articles in various pakistani newspapers talking about some jornos/anchors suspected of working for ISI (obviously for money). who are they referring to?

They are well known, Hamid Mir, Ansar Abbasi, Kamran Khan, Talat Hussain, Javed Chaudhry, Ahmad Quraishi, Shahid Masood & the crackhead Zaid Hamid.

Plus, the whole Nawai-e-Waqt group including The Nation newspaper run by Nizami which acts as miltary's mouth piece.

[ahsan88]

There is a lot of internal and external pressure at the moment on the military.

I don't think there was a major internal public outcry against the army even after Kargil. However, people have not forgotten about Kargil - people like Nawaz Sharif, who was deposed soon after.

It sounds like he's coming after the army and trying to settle once and for all who should be in charge - the civlians or the army. And the public is in a very unsympathetic mood to the army, which is also why the army is so furious with America.

Maybe nothing much will come of it, but in recent years we've seen civilians get rid of Musharraf and re-install the chief justice.

Maybe people will also take inspiration from the "Arab spring" or whatever its called.

Arab uprisings were against dictators, Egypt is still run by the army which was pro-Mubarak.

Besides, Pakistan has a democraticaly elected government, matters not how inept and powerless they are.

[howzzat]

They are well known, Hamid Mir, Ansar Abbasi, Kamran Khan, Talat Hussain, Javed Chaudhry, Ahmad Quraishi, Shahid Masood & the crackhead Zaid Hamid.

Plus, the whole Nawai-e-Waqt group including The Nation newspaper run by Nizami which acts as miltary's mouth piece.

IMO Pakistan will do well to first cut influence of these guys. Propaganda is a very important tool to stay in power these days.

[Blistering Barnacle]

Arab uprisings were against dictators, Egypt is still run by the army which was pro-Mubarak.

Besides, Pakistan has a democraticaly elected government, matters not how inept and powerless they are.

It's a sham democracy when your military calls all the shots. Let's see what happens with Nawaz's threat.

[ahsan88]

IMO Pakistan will do well to first cut influence of these guys. Propaganda is a very important tool to stay in power these days.

The problem with print media in Pakistan is that most sensible columnists/journalists work for English language newspapers and they do not boast of a readership as large as urdu daily's.

At the end of the day, the majority of Pakistani's subscribe to urdu newspapers like jang, nawai-e-waqt & express where the likes of Hamid Mir, Orya Maqbool Jaan, Saleem Safi & Javed Chaudhry propogate the establishments agenda.

TV channel's are a whole different story, where loud mouth, hyper-nationalist anchors are good for TRP's.

[ahsan88]

It's a sham democracy when your military calls all the shots. Let's see what happens with Nawaz's threat.

Agreed with the bolded part.

It's not going to make much of a difference as the CJ is openly anti-PPP and pro-Army.

NS is trying to pressurize the government through the judiciary with this latest stunt. The leader of the opposition in NA, Chaudhry Nisar from PML(N) has already blamed the civils. A parlimentary committe would have been a much better choice IMHO.

[Blistering Barnacle]

Since writing her book in 2007, Siddiqa has noticed that the military now asserts intellectual control over Pakistan by influencing the media and keeping its ideological options open.

"If there are some segments of the ISI who are sympathetic to bin Laden, or to militancy, then effectively it keeps them relevant to the radicals, the militant right-wing community," she said.

"The liberals think the military is secular, therefore they remain relevant to them too. Whatever way you look at them they continue to be and they will always remain in fashion."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42996834/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

[ahsan88]

Military Inc. is a brilliant book, totally exposing the Pakistan Army's financial foothold on the state, have you read?

[Blistering Barnacle]

Military Inc. is a brilliant book, totally exposing the Pakistan Army's financial foothold on the state, have you read?

No, but I've been meaning to for quite a while and will look for a copy on ebay.

[SAF]

Hell no.

[1137moiz]

Military Inc. is a brilliant book, totally exposing the Pakistan Army's financial foothold on the state, have you read?
I thought it was pretty crap, playing to the anti-army gallery. Well written with the ole chip on the shoulder. Though the army has been as puppety as politicians in recent times

To answer the OP, no

[Blistering Barnacle]

For those who say no, any explanation? Is it because you prefer the army running Pakistan despite all its blunders and where it has brought Pakistan? Or is it because it isn't the right timing itself?

[Blistering Barnacle]

Pakistanis cannot agree what is more shocking, that bin Laden had skulked in a military town so close to the capital, Islamabad, or that Americans nipped in to kill him without meeting the least resistance. Either way, they know to blame the humiliated men in uniform. Columnists and bloggers even call for army bosses to fall on their swagger sticks.

Ashfaq Kayani, the now sullen-faced head of the armed forces, and his more exposed underling, Ahmad Shuja Pasha, who runs the main military spy outfit, the Inter-Services Intelligence directorate (ISI), are unused to such cheek. Their spokesmen have fumbled to come up with a consistent line.


http://www.economist.com/node/18682829

[ahsan88]

I thought it was pretty crap, playing to the anti-army gallery. Well written with the ole chip on the shoulder. Though the army has been as puppety as politicians in recent times

To answer the OP, no

Yeah the few hundred who make up the anti-army gallery. Do tell how it was crap?

Army has been a puppet since Ayub Khan's time and civilians haven't been any better, except for Bhutto who showed glimpses of potentials at times.

[SAF]

For those who say no, any explanation? Is it because you prefer the army running Pakistan despite all its blunders and where it has brought Pakistan? Or is it because it isn't the right timing itself?

C) None of the above

[Blistering Barnacle]

C) None of the above

How about A) - explanation.

Or should we assume you come from an army family instead?

[SAF]

How about A) - explanation.

Or should we assume you come from an army family instead?

I thought it was multiple choice :afridi

And it cant be A since A and B were different reasons...:)

[Poison]

Since writing her book in 2007, Siddiqa has noticed that the military now asserts intellectual control over Pakistan by influencing the media and keeping its ideological options open.

"If there are some segments of the ISI who are sympathetic to bin Laden, or to militancy, then effectively it keeps them relevant to the radicals, the militant right-wing community," she said.

"The liberals think the military is secular, therefore they remain relevant to them too. Whatever way you look at them they continue to be and they will always remain in fashion."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42996834/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

lol :poodle