Cannot afford to match India militarily: Pak Defence Minister

[ahamedirshad123]

Pakistan cannot afford to match the induction of modern weaponry by India, which possibly has a greater capacity to sustain a war, Pakistani Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmad Mukhtar has said.

“If we only try to match them (India) militarily and buy the sort of armament which they have, we will probably not be able to afford it,” Mr. Mukhtar said.

Explaining his contention, he noted that India’s economy is “six to seven times bigger than” Pakistan’s and its trade volumes were “five to six times greater.”

“The capacity of India and Pakistan to fight was for 20 to 22 days. Now India has inducted a lot of armaments, may be they can last for 45 days, we will not be able to do so,” Mr. Mukhtar said in an interview to BBC Urdu.

He was responding to a question on whether the projection of India as Pakistan’s greatest enemy was the root of the country’s problems.

Mr. Mukhtar noted that the two countries were taking steps to improve relations in the aftermath of the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks.

“Slowly the process of meetings has started. People are going across the border. Nobody had ever thought they could walk suitcase in hand to Amritsar via Wagah but that is the reality now and it is happening,” he said.

This was happening, he said, “in spite of the fact that wars were fought, there were problems on the border and the Mumbai incident”.

Asked why an incident like the Mumbai attacks occurred whenever relations improved between the two countries, Mr. Mukhtar said: “It is very unfortunate that such incidents happen and they should not happen. But there are players who are behind these incidents.”

He did not give details about such elements but said some of them had been arrested and put on trial.

Matters would improve when “we decide that religion and politics should not be mixed together”, he said. “Let them go side by side. There should be no restrictions on religion which is between me and my God.”

Earlier this year, India and Pakistan revived their dialogue process, which was suspended for over two years in the wake of the Mumbai attacks which were carried out by Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba.

[Namak_Halaal]

No need to sustain a war in a nuclear fall out. Pakistan may not be able to afford to match India's military, but hey, Pakistan can afford to build nukes at whim, sell them, and god forbid, use them; would only need a handful anyway.

[SIMBA]

What's the point- we have nukes.

Not saying we should use them!

[Mohsin]

I wont take these people's statement seriously. We have the likes of Rehman Malik who say we cannot shoot down drones...when we can.
When you have a Government imposed on the people, full of the corrupt and Ghaddars what do you expect.

[Toe Crusher]

great, nice of him to admit such a thing

[Liberty]

No need to sustain a war in a nuclear fall out. Pakistan may not be able to afford to match India's military, but hey, Pakistan can afford to build nukes at whim, sell them, and god forbid, use them; would only need a handful anyway.

:asif:asif

[sarmadsl]

he iz f*** he didnt knw any thg.......................................jang weapon se nahe bulke jazbe se lari jati hai

[ahsan88]

It's not a secret.

We are no match if a conventional war lasts for more than 3 weeks.

[insaftak]

It's not a secret.

We are no match if a conventional war lasts for more than 3 weeks.

thank god for :zulfi and nukes. no need to worry about the conventional war.

[ahsan88]

thank god for :zulfi and nukes. no need to worry about the conventional war.

Jiye Bhutto..!!!

On a serious note, why must we spend so much on new fighter jets from China, when nukes guarantee our safety.

[insaftak]

Jiye Bhutto..!!!

On a serious note, why must we spend so much on new fighter jets from China, when nukes guarantee our safety.

need to bomb the crap out of pakistani people in swat and FATA :P

[ace4rmspace]

Well said Sherlock! Must admit, confessing that in public takes some doing.

[Anwar_194]

Jiye Bhutto..!!!

On a serious note, why must we spend so much on new fighter jets from China, when nukes guarantee our safety.

Nuke doesn't guarantee SAFETY!...It guarantee death for both parties.

Go read the consequences of Nuclear Attack on Wiki and you will be amazed. It will send pak back 200 more years in the past.

[ahsan88]

Nuke doesn't guarantee SAFETY!...It guarantee death for both parties.

Go read the consequences of Nuclear Attack on Wiki and you will be amazed. It will send pak back 200 more years in the past.

Oh baba i know. I was laying out what NDU graduates fail to comprehend.

[ahamedirshad123]

I dont want to see another war in during my lifetime. I am living happily down south, miles away from border. Only innocent people who are living in the Indo-Pak border suffer. We should move on.. May Allah protect both India and Pakistan!!

[ahsan88]

need to bomb the crap out of pakistani people in swat and FATA :P

or or or lets spend it on Riaz.

Millions of Riaz fellow countrywo/men want to learn English.

[SIMBA]

Nuke doesn't guarantee SAFETY!...It guarantee death for both parties.

Go read the consequences of Nuclear Attack on Wiki and you will be amazed. It will send pak back 200 more years in the past.

Nukes are a deterrent :ajmal

Tho, both countries need to sort out their differences politically and concentrate on the large mass of poor people.

Aim should be peace- not war.

[Namak_Halaal]

Nuke doesn't guarantee SAFETY!...It guarantee death for both parties.

.

Only if you use it.

PS: Nukes are a deterrent.

[insaftak]

or or or lets spend it on Riaz.

Millions of Riaz fellow countrywo/men want to learn English.

Riaz needs to go to a madrassah and learn how to become a militant so we could use F-16 jets to bomb him.

[Striver]

Only delusional fans will disagree but in this day, full fledge wars won't last whole 20 odd days. May be 1 week the most. All it will take just a push of the switch from both sides and millions of civillians will be dead in no time. All sadly and unfortunately!

Let's hope it never comes to that and nueks serve their purpose of deterrance ONLY!

[ace4rmspace]

Riaz needs to go to a madrassah and learn how to become a militant so we could use F-16 jets to bomb him.

Some comments you come up with are really slappable.

[mithun_minhas]

India is a much bigger economy and can withstand the finances incurred during war much better than Pakistan...

At this point of time, both countries(especially India) cannot afford a war. What ever success India achieved this past decade should not be wasted on a pointless war.. Same goes for China too..

There will never be a clearcut winner in these wars. If this was 12th century, you can defeat your enemy and conquer their land. No country can do that in this day and age.

Its the Govt of both countries that scare people about a potential threat and mint money in the name of buying weapons :facepalm:

People are sheep. A common man in India and Pak does not care whether the country has nukes or some modern fighter jets or some missile that can destroy long range targets. They only care about their next meal.

[insaftak]

Some comments you come up with are really slappable.

That means I am posting something right. if you want a genuine change in pakistan then you have to oppose the defense spending that is holding our country back.

Pakistan can not sustain buying toys that they will never use against india and is ignoring the children of pakistan who desperately need education. since the state of pakistan isn't providing them any education then the only option for these kids is to go to maddrassahs and vast majority of militants have studied in a madrassah at one time in their lives.

I stick with my comments pakistani state wants them to become militants.

[ace4rmspace]

That means I am posting something right. if you want a genuine change in pakistan then you have to oppose the defense spending that is holding our country back.

Pakistan can not sustain buying toys that they will never use against india and is ignoring the children of pakistan who desperately need education. since the state of pakistan isn't providing them any education then the only option for these kids is to go to maddrassahs and vast majority of militants have studied in a madrassah at one time in their lives.

I stick with my comments pakistani state wants them to become militants.

Suggesting a kid should go to a madrasa and be bombed by F-16's is right? You've got a twisted mind my friend, no excuses. As much as you hate the army and the establishment, that comment doesn't show you in a better light either.

[insaftak]

Suggesting a kid should go to a madrasa and be bombed by F-16's is right? You've got a twisted mind my friend, no excuses. As much as you hate the army and the establishment, that comment doesn't show you in a better light either.

you don't understand sarcasam bro.

LOL @ you thinking I want kids to go to maddrassahs and get bombed by F-16s.

I was stating the ground realities. that's how things are in today's pakistan. lots of kids have no option but to go to maddrassahs and some of these kids join militant outfits.

[ace4rmspace]

No I don't understand sarcasm, at all. Really.

I know it was in jest but it was in really bad taste IT. I've got a twisted sense of humour and can appreciate the most morbid of jokes, infact, the morbid the better. I don't know, that one just hit the wrong buttons!

I guess it's because the plight of my nation pains me and to see generation after generation lost to the greed, ignorance and arrogance of a select few degenerates is increasingly annoying me. Madrassahs have a place in our society, they can't be blamed solely for the propogation of militants. kkmix went to a madrassa and he's still in one piece. It may be a contributing factor but there are so many other reasons. How many more generations will we have to lose before we even begin to start realising our dream? I don't know and what really scares me is the day when I say I don't care.

[insaftak]

No I don't understand sarcasm, at all. Really.

I know it was in jest but it was in really bad taste IT. I've got a twisted sense of humour and can appreciate the most morbid of jokes, infact, the morbid the better. I don't know, that one just hit the wrong buttons!

I guess it's because the plight of my nation pains me and to see generation after generation lost to the greed, ignorance and arrogance of a select few degenerates is increasingly annoying me. Madrassahs have a place in our society, they can't be blamed solely for the propogation of militants. kkmix went to a madrassa and he's still in one piece. It may be a contributing factor but there are so many other reasons. How many more generations will we have to lose before we even begin to start realising our dream? I don't know and what really scares me is the day when I say I don't care.

+1

I have no problem with kids going to madrassahs. my problem is with state of pakistan not providing these kids proper schools and education system where they can learn and improve their lives. our defense spending is holding us back from spending money on education and yes that goes for buffoons in India too that have been wasting money on toys instead of educating their masses.

[Cover Drive]

Do you think Defence Minister will tell everyone what we have etc ? They don't want to give away what they have etc.

I bet we have as much as India if not more.

[waqar_ahmad]

The very reason we got nukes, was coz we couldnt last longer than India in a conventional war. Its not a secret.

However, the brilliant minister needs to learn how to phrase things

[DeadlyVenom]

I think Namak_Halal nailed it in his first post.

[suhaib]

since when was it that military might guaranteed success. There is more to war than just having modern weapons, india always had better weapons than us, but we wiped them in 1999, 1965 and even in 1948 when we didn't have an army, all muslim victories in war have come when the enemies had better militaries than us. Its all about planning, like sun tzu said 'a war is won before its fought'

[jheenga]

See . a honest pakistani Mr Mukhtar :)

[Eagle_Eye]

See . a honest pakistani Mr Mukhtar :)

That is a dishonest statement about Mr Mukhtar :)

[ace4rmspace]

Who needs to faff around with guns and tanks and what not when ... Kaboooom! Eh Jheenga Mian? lol

[insaftak]

India's concern shouldn't be pak fauj they should be more concerned about pakistani people who are ready to pick up guns and fight at anytime.

[jheenga]

Who needs to faff around with guns and tanks and what not when ... Kaboooom! Eh Jheenga Mian? lol

lol .its so funny to see all pakistanis strutt around wid da BOMB :butt:malik:kami:danish

[ace4rmspace]

lol .its so funny to see all pakistanis strutt around wid da BOMB :butt:malik:kami:danish

It is isn't it. Better than a kick in the teeth I say.

[jheenga]

It is isn't it. Better than a kick in the teeth I say.

Oh oh check your blood pressure ace . fact is , we are da daddy :70:

[ace4rmspace]

Oh oh check your blood pressure ace . fact is , we are da daddy :70:

I'm afraid it seems as if you took my expression as a threat of violence. You have completely misunderstood my post. As for facts and being "da daddy" is concerned, it is a completely futile and irrelevant discussion, an utter waste of time.

[insaftak]

an advice for all.

Don't feed the troll

[USaqaf]

Stop wasting money on stupid defense, feed/clothe and educate our people you lost of $@!%#@$%#@$%#.

[abdulqadir786]

All Indians posters, immediately report to ur Indian forum and leave the Pak forum for Pak posters. a jk

[jheenga]

I'm afraid it seems as if you took my expression as a threat of violence. You have completely misunderstood my post. As for facts and being "da daddy" is concerned, it is a completely futile and irrelevant discussion, an utter waste of time.

Chalo koi baat nahi :sami:manzoor:amir

[s2k]

since when was it that military might guaranteed success. There is more to war than just having modern weapons, india always had better weapons than us, but we wiped them in 1999, 1965 and even in 1948 when we didn't have an army, all muslim victories in war have come when the enemies had better militaries than us. Its all about planning, like sun tzu said 'a war is won before its fought'

Wiped us in 1999,1965 and 1948?Care to show some proof?

Or just like everytim you will runaway and not post a single neutral credible proof?

[ace4rmspace]

Oh here we go again ...

[KFC_Zinger]

India's concern shouldn't be pak fauj they should be more concerned about pakistani people who are ready to pick up guns and fight at anytime.

True.....

A well fed man does not make a war..........

[s2k]

Well yes,Pakistan has fallen behind in military stakes since 1980s.....Things were preety even in technological terms in 1960s and 70s but since than Pakistan has fallen behind.

Any war between the two has the potential to have a nuclear fall out.Because even if there is a slight hint of Pakistan readying its nuclear armament,India will try to pre empt it with its own nuclear strike.

[jheenga]

Oh here we go again ...

lol. you dont like dis mister billoAce :))

[suhaib]

Wiped us in 1999,1965 and 1948?Care to show some proof?

Or just like everytim you will runaway and not post a single neutral credible proof?

how many times have you been proven wrong on this, yet after running away each time you come back and say i run away :)))

[jheenga]

how many times have you been proven wrong on this, yet after running away each time you come back and say i run away :)))

ok. why did you run away mah bro Su- a -hib :sami

[ace4rmspace]

lol. you dont like dis mister billoAce :))

It doesn't bother me personally but it does seem like an unecessary waste of oxygen. Don't hold back on my account though, knock yourself out I say.

[Eagle_Eye]

s2k and Suhaib are at it again... Time to ..... :runaway:

[Howzat]

I wont take these people's statement seriously. We have the likes of Rehman Malik who say we cannot shoot down drones...when we can.
When you have a Government imposed on the people, full of the corrupt and Ghaddars what do you expect.

Government imposed on people? Is it not a democracy?

[Itachi]

Wiped us in 1999,1965 and 1948?Care to show some proof?

Or just like everytim you will runaway and not post a single neutral credible proof?

cool down bro. No use of asking him. He was sleeping in history class ;).

[Howzat]

There is no use having too many in nukes or soldiers especially when half the people on each side of the border can't even count them because they don't know how to. Better we teach them how to count. The future of our countries will be decided not by who has more men in the army, but by who has more educated people living relatively happily. The hungry people on the roads in your country or mine are not going to eat the nukes you see.

[the Great Khan]

and this is accurate but he has phrased this wrong.

1)pakistan cant win a prolonged conventional conflict with the Indians

2)our nukes have ensured that neither can they

3)our nuclear threshold is very very low.

4) our weapons purchases are a deterrence and are used to defend paksitan from limited cross border actions and cold start.

5) all wars of the future will be total wars

6) 80% of indian weapon purchases have been paksitan centric. They are looking to change their doctrines to combat china but the strategic adn geopolitical situation is so fluid they arent too sure either.

7) our policy is to concentrate on stand off weopons and force multipliers and assymetrical warfare..but this takes time to reorient a conventional lumbering force..

[the Great Khan]

There is no use having too many in nukes or soldiers especially when half the people on each side of the border can't even count them because they don't know how to. Better we teach them how to count. The future of our countries will be decided not by who has more men in the army, but by who has more educated people living relatively happily. The hungry people on the roads in your country or mine are not going to eat the nukes you see.

thats waht they thought in cordoba, baghdad, jerusalem, cairo, aleppo, acre, samarkand, bukhara,

the more spohisticated a society is teh easier it is to tear down!

[s2k]

how many times have you been proven wrong on this, yet after running away each time you come back and say i run away :)))

Here is the man,who runs away everytime after being owned and after his lies are shred to smithreens to come again...

[Itachi]

In today's world, what's the greatest weapon? Nukes? Air crafts? Missiles?.... NONE!

It is Money! In appropriate term.... Economy. If you are a stabilising factor in world's economy, then no one can attack. Cz attacking will be like.... Apne hi paro pe kulhari marna. Long lasting wars always creates depression in economy which affects globally. That's why in modern world, countries try to avoid wars.

And i have seen some good posts here. It is no use of creating nukes when your own people is starving (this goes to both the countries). Thumbs up for those posters.

[the Great Khan]

Well yes,Pakistan has fallen behind in military stakes since 1980s.....Things were preety even in technological terms in 1960s and 70s but since than Pakistan has fallen behind.

Any war between the two has the potential to have a nuclear fall out.Because even if there is a slight hint of Pakistan readying its nuclear armament,India will try to pre empt it with its own nuclear strike.

the hint is indian action en masse across the border via cold start...like I said there is a reason India has not repeated the 65 invasion..pakistan fell behind due to sanctions in the 60's, 70's and then 90's..but within the next decade we will become sanction proof..

[s2k]

and this is accurate but he has phrased this wrong.

1)pakistan cant win a prolonged conventional conflict with the Indians

2)our nukes have ensured that neither can they

3)our nuclear threshold is very very low.

4) our weapons purchases are a deterrence and are used to defend paksitan from limited cross border actions and cold start.

5) all wars of the future will be total wars

6) 80% of indian weapon purchases have been paksitan centric. They are looking to change their doctrines to combat china but the strategic adn geopolitical situation is so fluid they arent too sure either.

7) our policy is to concentrate on stand off weopons and force multipliers and assymetrical warfare..but this takes time to reorient a conventional lumbering force..

I agree with most of what you say TGK...,,,,just a few things i would like to add......

1.India is aware of Pakistan's low nuclear threshold,so in context of Pakistan,India's Nuclear threshold is very low also.Any hint of Pakistan readying its nuclear arms,will result in India going for a pre emptive nuclear strike or precision bombing to take out nuclear strikes.

2.Neither PAkistan nor India has the diplomatic strength to pull off a nuclear strike.you would agree that having weapons and using them are totally different issues.So more often than not if India or Pakistan have a war in future,International pressure will force a ceasefire.

[s2k]

the hint is indian action en masse across the border via cold start...like I said there is a reason India has not repeated the 65 invasion..pakistan fell behind due to sanctions in the 60's, 70's and then 90's..but within the next decade we will become sanction proof..

India invaded in 1965?I request you read about Operation Grandslam.

India didnt have a cold start doctrine in 70 80 90s it was in 2000s that the doctrine was implemented.

India had a very successful war in 1971.....

[Markhor]

Pakistan can not sustain buying toys that they will never use against india and is ignoring the children of pakistan who desperately need education.


Masood Hasan raised an important point the other day.

Germany, Sweden and France spend 3.3, 4.3 and 5.4 percent of their yearly budget on the military, Canada and UK 6.3 percent each, followed by Japan, Australia, China, India, Russia, United States and Iran at 6.4, 7.1, 18.2, 18.6, 18.7, 19.3 and 21.7 percent respectively.

Our military expenditure at 23.1 percent tops them all!

[Dr. Schaden Freud]

I agree with most of what you say TGK...,,,,just a few things i would like to add......

1.India is aware of Pakistan's low nuclear threshold,so in context of Pakistan,India's Nuclear threshold is very low also.Any hint of Pakistan readying its nuclear arms,will result in India going for a pre emptive nuclear strike or precision bombing to take out nuclear strikes.

2.Neither PAkistan nor India has the diplomatic strength to pull off a nuclear strike.you would agree that having weapons and using them are totally different issues.So more often than not if India or Pakistan have a war in future,International pressure will force a ceasefire.

About 1. Precision bombing will not achieve much because nuclear weapons are distributed. Any nuclear strike by any country would definitely result in a nuclear strike from the other country and millions dying on both sides.

About 2. I completely agree.

[Namak_Halaal]

Or just like everytim you will runaway and not post a single neutral credible proof?

LOL! Says the guy who debates on lies and then claims the proof was erased!


an advice for all.

Don't feed the troll

Spot on. s2k, Jheenga, and Doc SF - were crying a river accusing myself and KKWC of turning Nuclear related threads into an issue of PAK vs IND/Islam vs. Hindu debates when the truth is they are doing the very same thing in this thread - mirror mirror on the wall! Note how this thread changed direction since s2k, a self confessing advocate of Hinduvta, and jheenga, posted their responses.

Got to admire their insecurity.

[KFC_Zinger]

o bhai tum sab log yeh pray karo ki Ind/ Pak.... jang na ho....

Yeh jang main koin nahin jeet pata

[NJamal]

A true Muslim never fights on the superiority of weapons or numbers but the strength of his IMAAN. History is witness to this and if our Imaan is strong and we deep down believe that whatever is being done is done only and only by the will of ALLAH, then no force can match us.

[Anwar_194]

Only if you use it.

PS: Nukes are a deterrent.

Well...thats all we got to be in existance.

[Namak_Halaal]

Well...thats all we got to be in existance.

History reveals that is all you need, a deterrent, in order to survive. I dread to think what Pakistan’s state would be today had we not built the atomic bomb.

Long gone are the days of conventional wars by means of conventional weapons. Today, there is only one weapon, currency.

It's better to spend money on education, welfare, job creation, infrastructure, opposed to investing in a military, which in the event of a nuclear war, would be utterly useless.

[s2k]

LOL! Says the guy who debates on lies and then claims the proof was erased!




Spot on. s2k, Jheenga, and Doc SF - were crying a river accusing myself and KKWC of turning Nuclear related threads into an issue of PAK vs IND/Islam vs. Hindu debates when the truth is they are doing the very same thing in this thread - mirror mirror on the wall! Note how this thread changed direction since s2k, a self confessing advocate of Hinduvta, and jheenga, posted their responses.

Got to admire their insecurity.

Insecurity about what??????LOL your defence minister just admitted it cannot compere with India in military means as it cannot compete with India in economic means....

Well your habit of taking threads down the drain is sich that more often than not threads get deleted.

Muslims can support Islam but a Hindu supporting Hinduism is a crime?May be in your eyes but not by any civilised country.

Still dont know why you havent replied to posters asking you to validate a few claims you made.....

1.You claimed BJP wanted to eliminate Muslims from UP.

2.BJP when in power at the center in India,was anti muslim.When asked to show one law that the Vajpayee government passed which was anti hindu you again failed to answer.

3.Regarding your assertion that Pakistan is going to be a leader of sorts in Muslim,you were asked that How can a country which is economically weak,has a history of commiting henious crimes againsit muslims and which has been serially exploited by western nations lead muslims,when Turkey Malaysia UAE and Iran have better credentials.You again failed to answer.


This thread the OP compares India's and Pakistan's military.Yet you seem to believe it has something to do with Hindus vs Muslims....

I have been serially ignoring your posts but you seem to be in a habit of quoting my answers given to others.

[suhaib]

Here is the man,who runs away everytime after being owned and after his lies are shred to smithreens to come again...

owned? do you even know the meanings of the words you use :)))

clearly you have some problems as your only describing yourself, not only do you get embarrassed with your lies and one line rants then run away, but you go in other threads to say 'i won' :)))

[s2k]

owned? do you even know the meanings of the words you use :)))

clearly you have some problems as your only describing yourself, not only do you get embarrassed with your lies and one line rants then run away, but you go in other threads to say 'i won' :)))

You get OWNED by all and sundry in your claims.....with no proof.

Here here....again on the same ways of posting smilies.....

Why dont you just post proof that you won the 1948,1965 and 1999 wars????

If you cant post proof dont reply to my post......

[suhaib]

India invaded in 1965?I request you read about Operation Grandslam.

India didnt have a cold start doctrine in 70 80 90s it was in 2000s that the doctrine was implemented.

India had a very successful war in 1971.....

:)))

do you even know what you type, or do you go to bharat vermas blog and copy and paste the stuff here.

what does operation grandslam have to do with the 1965 war, all indians are well deluided and blinded by their media on pak-india war.

operation grandslam was launched across a LOC, it was done legaly, india launched the war by crossing an international boundary which is illegal and was sent packing home.

the crushing they got there made them come to their senses and when our army went into kargil you did not repeat the same mistake as in 1965 and instead went running to uncle sam. :)))

[Namak_Halaal]

I have been serially ignoring your posts but you seem to be in a habit of quoting my answers given to others.

You've done a fantastic job in this thread.

s2k, it is so easy of me to booty whip your responses back into the stone ages, but we've all read the story of how the little piggy cried all the way home.

[suhaib]

You get OWNED by all and sundry in your claims.....with no proof.

Here here....again on the same ways of posting smilies.....

Why dont you just post proof that you won the 1948,1965 and 1999 wars????

If you cant post proof dont reply to my post......

i have posted enought proof but you always run away, smilies are used cause your funny, especially the way you get owned, run away and than come back to say in another thread, 'i won' and you ran away. :)))

you talk of proof but not a single indian has provided any, its still funny you live in the fantasy of wining in 1999 which was probably the biggest beating you got.

[s2k]

:)))

do you even know what you type, or do you go to bharat vermas blog and copy and paste the stuff here.

what does operation grandslam have to do with the 1965 war, all indians are well deluided and blinded by their media on pak-india war.

operation grandslam was launched across a LOC, it was done legaly, india launched the war by crossing an international boundary which is illegal and went sent packing home.

the crushing they got there made them come to their senses and when our army went into kargil you did not repeat the same mistake as in 1965 and instead went running to uncle sam. :)))


Launching armies across LOC was legal?So crossing the border in western sector was also legal.When you launch a war in a certain sector you think it will be limited to that sector only?

Pakistan started the war by launching OP grandslam,India retaliated and took into possesion nearly 750sq km of Pakistani territory while Pakistan had only 250 sq km of Indian territory in its possesion(source:The Time)

Crushing???where?When we reached within 30kms of LAhore????

Whose PM ran to Washington and to Bill Clinton?Was it the Pak PM???

Nawaz Sharif has publicly accepted that PAk Army was routed in 1999.

[s2k]

You've done a fantastic job in this thread.

s2k, it is so easy of me to booty whip your responses back into the stone ages, but we've all read the story of how the little piggy cried all the way home.

Well you have the habit of trying to gain my attention by quoting me........

We all know who has been crying from the top of roofs to validate his claim about How India vs PAkistan is a war between Muslims and Hindus.....etc etc etc......with no valid evidence....

[suhaib]

even the general that lead india into the kargil battle has admitted pak won.

-----------------


Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV


A General who led the Indian Army on ground in the Kargil conflict, has broken his 11-year silence to say that he believes India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal, who was then the head of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, says India has failed to consolidate its tactical gains.

Asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later, Gen Pal told NDTV: "Well for 11 years I did not speak at all...I did not speak because I was never convinced about this war, whether we really won it...We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories we lost, we lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily."

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh.

Speaking to NDTV, the then Army chief General VP Mailk refused to get into the debate but said there was little doubt who won that war. (Watch: Kargil war ended on our terms: Gen VP Malik)

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/not-convinced-if-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-28718.php?cp

not all indians are deluided like sK2

[s2k]

i have posted enought proof but you always run away, smilies are used cause your funny, especially the way you get owned, run away and than come back to say in another thread, 'i won' and you ran away. :)))

you talk of proof but not a single indian has provided any, its still funny you live in the fantasy of wining in 1999 which was probably the biggest beating you got.

Proofs doesnt mean your claims and smilies.....read the dictionary and see what Credible neutral evidence means.....that will help.

[suhaib]

Launching armies across LOC was legal?So crossing the border in western sector was also legal.When you launch a war in a certain sector you think it will be limited to that sector only?

Pakistan started the war by launching OP grandslam,India retaliated and took into possesion nearly 750sq km of Pakistani territory while Pakistan had only 250 sq km of Indian territory in its possesion(source:The Time)

Crushing???where?When we reached within 30kms of LAhore????

Whose PM ran to Washington and to Bill Clinton?Was it the Pak PM???

Nawaz Sharif has publicly accepted that PAk Army was routed in 1999.

launching an attack in a disputed territory has always been legal, the funny thing is that indians claim it led to the indians attacking pakistan but wasnt india already attacking pakistan through the LOC before that, pakistan has never crossed or launched an attack across an international border, all wars have been started by india.

you need to learn about disputed territories, LOC and borders first, educating you on the wars can only come after.

it was vajpai that ran to washington, NS was an idiot he pulled out because he was promised support by the americans for the next elections and i havnt heard him claim defeat however he did bash the army for it, thats because of his personal hatred for musharraf and his lies are caught anyway as its proven he was aware of the war but claims not so forget him.

[Namak_Halaal]

Well you have the habit of trying to gain my attention by quoting me........

.

LOL! In your dreams sunshine.

I am quoting you in this thread aren't I? Unlike yourself I am not afraid to face reality. It's dead easy to gain your attention by just using two words - Islamic Bomb.

PS: Learn the difference between evidence and proof.

[s2k]

even the general that lead india into the kargil battle has admitted pak won.

-----------------


Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV


A General who led the Indian Army on ground in the Kargil conflict, has broken his 11-year silence to say that he believes India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal, who was then the head of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, says India has failed to consolidate its tactical gains.

Asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later, Gen Pal told NDTV: "Well for 11 years I did not speak at all...I did not speak because I was never convinced about this war, whether we really won it...We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories we lost, we lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily."

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh.

Speaking to NDTV, the then Army chief General VP Mailk refused to get into the debate but said there was little doubt who won that war. (Watch: Kargil war ended on our terms: Gen VP Malik)

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/not-convinced-if-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-28718.php?cp

not all indians are deluided like sK2

So we gained tactical victories and gained whatever territory Pakistan had captured.Yes the Army wanted to push further across the LOC and capture Pakistani positions across LOC.I am glad the political leadership kept it as a limited war and not full fledged war.

This is where Indian and Pakistani political leaders differ......Indian political will was to keep it as a limited war and regain lost territory which we did.Army wanted to extend the war front which was refused.

Next time read the full article....

[suhaib]

Proofs doesnt mean your claims and smilies.....read the dictionary and see what Credible neutral evidence means.....that will help.

:)))
i would have to keep coming with smilies if you gona keep coming up with hilarious stuff.

infact even in this thread you have just come up with one line rants and lies and can not prove anything.

your own general who led you into the war has claimed defeat :)))

what more proof do you want, what you need is a reality check.

[s2k]

LOL! In your dreams sunshine.

I am quoting you in this thread aren't I? Unlike yourself I am not afraid to face reality. It's dead easy to gain your attention by just using two words - Islamic Bomb.

PS: Learn the difference between evidence and proof.

why are you quoting me at all?When i have been ignoring your drivel......

Reality???well i hope you face the reality back home in your country which is going through a tough time ,rather than thump chest in UK.

Islamic Bomb a coin termed by your own leaders,Bhutto.......well some help it is in present day Pakistan....

[s2k]

:)))
i would have to keep coming with smilies if you gona keep coming up with hilarious stuff.

infact even in this thread you have just come up with one line rants and lies and can not prove anything.

your own general who led you into the war has claimed defeat :)))

what more proof do you want, what you need is a reality check.

Did you read my reply and the whole article.............or just read the headline and started having smiley orgasms....

[suhaib]

here is more proof of the smashing india got in 1999, we still hold six indian peaks :)))


----------------------------

Pakistan occupying six Indian peaks, claims MP
Josy Joseph in New Delhi

Pakistan is occupying at least six strategically located Indian peaks in the Kargil sector along the Line of Control, claimed Rajya Sabha member and senior criminal advocate R K Anand.

Basing his arguments on several documents and "authoritative sources", Anand said on Wednesday that these are strategic peaks from where Pakistani forces have a commanding view of the Srinagar-Leh highway, Drass helipad and several other military installations. There was no immediate reaction from the army headquarters.

Anand named the Pakistan occupied Indian peaks as: Point 5353 (Map reference: 490644), Point Aftab-I (499642), Point Saddle Ridge (525638), Point Bunker Ridge (548639), Shangruti and Dhalunag.

"Point 5353 is very strategic. In 1992-93, the then corps commander (of India) decided to make a shift pocket on this point and sent personnel there by helicopter. The officers posted there successfully cut off the entire supply to the Pakistani pockets along the LoC for nearly two months," he said. The capture was in retaliation of Pakistani attacks on several Indian posts including the national highway from Srinagar to Leh.

He said the Indian Army then claimed that point 5353 is "within our LoC and that we have every right to patrol the area." He said this point offers a 40-kilometre view of the Pakistan side and from the Indian side an attack could be launched on Drass and the Drass-Kargil road.

However, in January-February of 1999, Pakistan troops occupied Point 5353, along with several other strategic posts. These intrusions led to last year's Kargil war.

He said Indian troops had tried to capture Point 5353 on May 18, 1999 when army operations were beginning in Operation Vijay in Kargil last year. But it failed.

He said, the operation was carried out by a team of soldiers led by Major Navneet Mehta.

He gave reporters a copy of the two-page report prepared by the young officer for his seniors on the failed operation. In that report the major has explained the reasons why an attack on Point 5353 was difficult. "It is not possible to carry out an assault from the northwestern, western and south western approaches," the officer pointed out.

Anand also made available a wireless message of May 19, 1999 where it says "attack on 5353 called off due to bad weather" and that "13 OR (other ranks) injured in Maj Navneet's Pl (platoon) due to difficult trn (terrain)".

If the army's argument that Point 5353 was never India's is to be accepted, then "why did they launch the attack?" he asked.

Recent media reports about Pakistan occupying Point 5353 on Indian side of LoC was rubbished by the army headquarters and Defence Minister George Fernandes. Both refused to acknowledge that any Indian post is in Pakistani control.

Anand, who was elected to the Upper House as a member of the Jharkhand Mukti Morcha, said, even Parliament has been told that there are no peaks under Pakistani occupation.


He said Point 5353 is "300 to 500 metres inside our territory".

It looks like our army commanders are wrongly briefing the defence minister," he said when Fernandes' statement was pointed out. "The defence minister mislead Parliament on the basis of the briefing by army officers," Anand said, while demanding action against senior army commanders.

He said the Director General of Military Operations had no idea what was happening along the LoC. Similarly the corps commander during Operation Vijay too had no idea of the dimensions of the Pakistani gameplan. The army chief too is unaware of the situation, he said.

"Instead of holding them responsible, you promote them and give them awards," he said.

Whe asked why the army and government was allowing Pakistan to occupy the peaks, and did not regain it last year, Anand said there were various reasons. "They wanted to finish the war as early as possible as elections were coming. And they thought nobody will come to know," he said.

On the army's reluctance, he said if they launch operations to take back these peaks, there will be a full-fledged war with Pakistan.

However, he said Indian forces should take immediate steps to protect national integrity. Besides, a fact-finding team of five Parliamentarians should be constituted to go to the LoC to verify the facts.

Anand has repeatedly served notices for calling attention motions, special mentions in the Rajya Sabha on these intrusions by Pakistan. But despite repeated attempts the matter was not taken up for discussion, he said.

Anand said he also wrote to Fernandes calling his attention to the matter. But he did not get any reply.

The army too has been struggling to convince the media that Pakistan does not occupy even a single post on the Indian side of the LoC.In fact senior army officers have been holding special briefings for select groups of journalists after reports appeared that Point 5353 of India is with Pakistan.

Officials at army headquarters said they were studying Anand's statement.


http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/aug/30josy.htm

[suhaib]

Did you read my reply and the whole article.............or just read the headline and started having smiley orgasms....

your reply is always full of one line rants and lies. on such posts smilies make the perfect reply.

again, like always its me coming with the proof and you havnt come up with a single piece, i have given you indian sources that claim how you lost in 1999.

[suhaib]

now you will probably run away like usual :)))

[Namak_Halaal]

why are you quoting me at all?When i have been ignoring your drivel......


This makes no sense, how can you be ignoring me then claim I am acting in a certain way, but only to respond to me again, only to jump at the discussion of India vs Pakistan in reference to the Islamic Bomb?

For the record, I ignore everything you post when it comes to the topic of Pakistan or India since you lie about almost everything, including that thread which you claimed the mods deleted.

why are you quoting me at all?


Simply because you are so easy to wind up and the sight of you losing it brings tears to me eyes, through laughter.

[suhaib]

So we gained tactical victories and gained whatever territory Pakistan had captured.Yes the Army wanted to push further across the LOC and capture Pakistani positions across LOC.I am glad the political leadership kept it as a limited war and not full fledged war.

This is where Indian and Pakistani political leaders differ......Indian political will was to keep it as a limited war and regain lost territory which we did.Army wanted to extend the war front which was refused.

Next time read the full article....

nope, proved wrong as accordind to the source above (indian) we still hold six peaks.
WE DESTROYED YOU IN 1999, its time to open your eyes.

if you won anything it was only in diplomacy and thats because we had a lousy and corrupt leader as our PM,

militarily you probably got the biggest bashing of your entire lifetime.,
infact we would not have lost any lives had ganja not pulled us out, you took a cheap shot and attacked us after the ceasefire.

[s2k]

here is more proof of the smashing india got in 1999, we still hold six indian peaks :)))


----------------------------

Pakistan occupying six Indian peaks, claims MP
Josy Joseph in New Delhi

Pakistan is occupying at least six strategically located Indian peaks in the Kargil sector along the Line of Control, claimed Rajya Sabha member and senior criminal advocate R K Anand.

Basing his arguments on several documents and "authoritative sources", Anand said on Wednesday that these are strategic peaks from where Pakistani forces have a commanding view of the Srinagar-Leh highway, Drass helipad and several other military installations. There was no immediate reaction from the army headquarters.

Anand named the Pakistan occupied Indian peaks as: Point 5353 (Map reference: 490644), Point Aftab-I (499642), Point Saddle Ridge (525638), Point Bunker Ridge (548639), Shangruti and Dhalunag.

"Point 5353 is very strategic. In 1992-93, the then corps commander (of India) decided to make a shift pocket on this point and sent personnel there by helicopter. The officers posted there successfully cut off the entire supply to the Pakistani pockets along the LoC for nearly two months," he said. The capture was in retaliation of Pakistani attacks on several Indian posts including the national highway from Srinagar to Leh.

He said the Indian Army then claimed that point 5353 is "within our LoC and that we have every right to patrol the area." He said this point offers a 40-kilometre view of the Pakistan side and from the Indian side an attack could be launched on Drass and the Drass-Kargil road.

However, in January-February of 1999, Pakistan troops occupied Point 5353, along with several other strategic posts. These intrusions led to last year's Kargil war.

He said Indian troops had tried to capture Point 5353 on May 18, 1999 when army operations were beginning in Operation Vijay in Kargil last year. But it failed.

He said, the operation was carried out by a team of soldiers led by Major Navneet Mehta.

He gave reporters a copy of the two-page report prepared by the young officer for his seniors on the failed operation. In that report the major has explained the reasons why an attack on Point 5353 was difficult. "It is not possible to carry out an assault from the northwestern, western and south western approaches," the officer pointed out.

Anand also made available a wireless message of May 19, 1999 where it says "attack on 5353 called off due to bad weather" and that "13 OR (other ranks) injured in Maj Navneet's Pl (platoon) due to difficult trn (terrain)".

If the army's argument that Point 5353 was never India's is to be accepted, then "why did they launch the attack?" he asked.

Recent media reports about Pakistan occupying Point 5353 on Indian side of LoC was rubbished by the army headquarters and Defence Minister George Fernandes. Both refused to acknowledge that any Indian post is in Pakistani control.

Anand, who was elected to the Upper House as a member of the Jharkhand Mukti Morcha, said, even Parliament has been told that there are no peaks under Pakistani occupation.


He said Point 5353 is "300 to 500 metres inside our territory".

It looks like our army commanders are wrongly briefing the defence minister," he said when Fernandes' statement was pointed out. "The defence minister mislead Parliament on the basis of the briefing by army officers," Anand said, while demanding action against senior army commanders.

He said the Director General of Military Operations had no idea what was happening along the LoC. Similarly the corps commander during Operation Vijay too had no idea of the dimensions of the Pakistani gameplan. The army chief too is unaware of the situation, he said.

"Instead of holding them responsible, you promote them and give them awards," he said.

Whe asked why the army and government was allowing Pakistan to occupy the peaks, and did not regain it last year, Anand said there were various reasons. "They wanted to finish the war as early as possible as elections were coming. And they thought nobody will come to know," he said.

On the army's reluctance, he said if they launch operations to take back these peaks, there will be a full-fledged war with Pakistan.

However, he said Indian forces should take immediate steps to protect national integrity. Besides, a fact-finding team of five Parliamentarians should be constituted to go to the LoC to verify the facts.

Anand has repeatedly served notices for calling attention motions, special mentions in the Rajya Sabha on these intrusions by Pakistan. But despite repeated attempts the matter was not taken up for discussion, he said.

Anand said he also wrote to Fernandes calling his attention to the matter. But he did not get any reply.

The army too has been struggling to convince the media that Pakistan does not occupy even a single post on the Indian side of the LoC.In fact senior army officers have been holding special briefings for select groups of journalists after reports appeared that Point 5353 of India is with Pakistan.

Officials at army headquarters said they were studying Anand's statement.


http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/aug/30josy.htm

claims by a MP who was being probed by government for trying to bribe judges to get a case in his favour.....and then he came out with this claims of his with no documents to support it.


I have already said the Indian General said we could have consolidated the war further and gained some Pakistani terrotorise which the then leadership refused.


Here is what i call a credible proof

Pakistan lost 2,700 troops during Kargil conflict: Nawaz Sharif

He wrote this in his memoirs.So the then PM of Pakistan accepted that PAkistan lost the war in terms of men and territory.

Indian general said we won the battles and got back lost territory but we didnt go further.I agree with that.

[s2k]

nope, proved wrong as accordind to the source above (indian) we still hold six peaks.
WE DESTROYED YOU IN 1999, its time to open your eyes.

if you won anything it was only in diplomacy and thats because we had a lousy and corrupt leader as our PM,

militarily you probably got the biggest bashing of your entire lifetime.,
infact we would not have lost any lives had ganja not pulled us out, you took a cheap shot and attacked us after the ceasefire.

Its a claim by a lawyer in the upper house.with no source of backing it up............such claims by little known politicians is pretty common in South east asia.


I would agree if any official source claims the same.


Here is what our defence minister said regarding the issue

http://hindu.com/thehindu/2001/01/02/stories/01020008.htm

[Sachin85]

nope, proved wrong as accordind to the source above (indian) we still hold six peaks.
WE DESTROYED YOU IN 1999, its time to open your eyes.

if you won anything it was only in diplomacy and thats because we had a lousy and corrupt leader as our PM,

militarily you probably got the biggest bashing of your entire lifetime.,
infact we would not have lost any lives had ganja not pulled us out, you took a cheap shot and attacked us after the ceasefire.

Who taught you history?

Six peaks = DESTRUCTION

Then what does 90,000 POWs and losing half your country mean?

Its hard being cocky and proud in a thread where your own defence minister is saying Pakistan is no match for India!!

[Prince_Pathan]

why is this such a big surprise to so many people

[s2k]

Who taught you history?

Six peaks = DESTRUCTION

Then what does 90,000 POWs and losing half your country mean?

Its hard being cocky and proud in a thread where your own defence minister is saying Pakistan is no match for India!!

Arey not 6 peaks

it is regarding one peak point 5353.Which is very controversial.Some sources namely one MP and one particular journalist,who writes for one paper and one magazine have been trying to raise the issue......they quote un names sources generals officers never any one by name or anything......

[suhaib]

claims by a MP who was being probed by government for trying to bribe judges to get a case in his favour.....and then he came out with this claims of his with no documents to support it.


I have already said the Indian General said we could have consolidated the war further and gained some Pakistani terrotorise which the then leadership refused.


Here is what i call a credible proof

Pakistan lost 2,700 troops during Kargil conflict: Nawaz Sharif

He wrote this in his memoirs.So the then PM of Pakistan accepted that PAkistan lost the war in terms of men and territory.

Indian general said we won the battles and got back lost territory but we didnt go further.I agree with that.

sorry but these claims are not only made by the MP, pakistan still claims indian peaks from kargil which is a fact. there is more evidence of this which i will post later.

as for the indian general, what he shows is the lies the indians have been fed by their media. coming from your general he will obviously say we got some victories, however what he has said is 'HE IS NOT CONVINCED YOU WON' as its coming from the man who led you into the war, its obvious you were defeated and he did not say you could have consolidated the war further or the leadership refused, dont make stuff up if you cant prove anything.

as for your so called credible proof, please provide neutral sources rather than bolding out text.

NS is a lost cause, and even though we did have alot of soliders killed it was only after a cheap shot after the war ended and pak withdrew and was going back you attacked from behind, so much for indian leaders wanting limited war. during the war we didnt lose many, your army was getting thrashed.

[suhaib]

Who taught you history?

Six peaks = DESTRUCTION

Then what does 90,000 POWs and losing half your country mean?

Its hard being cocky and proud in a thread where your own defence minister is saying Pakistan is no match for India!!

teach that to your own general who claims pak victory.

and forget about history, please learn english first, the minister has said pak doesnt have the latest modern equipment india does and no one claimed it, cause we have always kicked your butts with inferior equipment.

[Looney]

in education and economy sector , we cannot match them

military is only sector we spend more than 50% of our budget and still cannot match them . then why are we doing that ?


zindagi ka hamare maqsad hai na India se barabari :facepalm: bhooke maro lekin barabari dikhao

[s2k]

teach that to your own general who claims pak victory.

and forget about history, please learn english first, the minister has said pak doesnt have the latest modern equipment india does and no one claimed it, cause we have always kicked your butts with inferior equipment.

When did our general said Pakistan won?????You have comprehension problems.....

He said we could have consolidate the victory further and not that we lost.........He also said we won tactical victories and got back all territory......may be you failed to read that.

[suhaib]

When did our general said Pakistan won?????You have comprehension problems.....

He said we could have consolidate the victory further and not that we lost.........He also said we won tactical victories and got back all territory......may be you failed to read that.

comprehension problems? please buy yourself an oxford dictionary, if you cant afford one then atleast use google.

indian loss means pak won, thats exactly what he has said.

and no where has he said you could have consolidated the victory and an indian general from the kargil war saying hes not convinced you won, quite obviously means you lost, like he said he kept himself quite for 11 years, i wonder how many more of these generals of yours are keeping quite.

[suhaib]

comprehension problems :)))

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV


A General who led the Indian Army on ground in the Kargil conflict, has broken his 11-year silence to say that he believes India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal, who was then the head of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, says India has failed to consolidate its tactical gains.

Asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later, Gen Pal told NDTV: "Well for 11 years I did not speak at all...I did not speak because I was never convinced about this war, whether we really won it...We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories we lost, we lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily."

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh.

Speaking to NDTV, the then Army chief General VP Mailk refused to get into the debate but said there was little doubt who won that war. (Watch: Kargil war ended on our terms: Gen VP Malik)

[Arcturus]

S2k why feed the trolls? We know who started the wars and who ended them. Nothing you say or quote will convince these guys.

To buttress your argument, you can provide references from 3 sources viz. Indian, Neutral and Pakistani.

The following would be the response:

1. Indian sources - forget it. Media is completely biased.

2. Neutral sources - Western media has had it against muslims for so long. How can we trust these westerners? Western countries are desperately trying to undermine Pak's efforts to emerge as the messiah of Islamic countries.

3. Pakistani sources - Whatever sources you quote will be swiftly denounced as Indian moles and any Pakistani who corroborates your view will be deemed traitor.

See there is no way you can ever convince these guys.

[Looney]

the fascination with each other of Pakistanis and Indians can be very unhealthy

[s2k]

comprehension problems :)))

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV


A General who led the Indian Army on ground in the Kargil conflict, has broken his 11-year silence to say that he believes India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal, who was then the head of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, says India has failed to consolidate its tactical gains.

Asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later, Gen Pal told NDTV: "Well for 11 years I did not speak at all...I did not speak because I was never convinced about this war, whether we really won it...We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories we lost, we lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily."

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh.

Speaking to NDTV, the then Army chief General VP Mailk refused to get into the debate but said there was little doubt who won that war. (Watch: Kargil war ended on our terms: Gen VP Malik)

May be you failed to read the article.....here read the bold part carefully....Now read,he talks about further consolidation of military gains,which were not allowed by the Indian leadership.For any further consolidation would have meant a bigger war.Kargil operation was launched to get back all the Indian territory which Pak forces had occupied,we achieved that.Whether further military consolidation was needed or not was a political decision,which was taken wisely.


Now take the dictionary and read word by word with their meanings will help.

Also read Nawaz Sharif's memoirs on this issue...

[s2k]

S2k why feed the trolls? We know who started the wars and who ended them. Nothing you say or quote will convince these guys.

To buttress your argument, you can provide references from 3 sources viz. Indian, Neutral and Pakistani.

The following would be the response:

1. Indian sources - forget it. Media is completely biased.

2. Neutral sources - Western media has had it against muslims for so long. How can we trust these westerners? Western countries are desperately trying to undermine Pak's efforts to emerge as the messiah of Islamic countries.

3. Pakistani sources - Whatever sources you quote will be swiftly denounced as Indian moles and any Pakistani who corroborates your view will be deemed traitor.

See there is no way you can ever convince these guys.

Its good timepass having fun with a few delusional ones.........

[suhaib]

S2k why feed the trolls? We know who started the wars and who ended them. Nothing you say or quote will convince these guys.

To buttress your argument, you can provide references from 3 sources viz. Indian, Neutral and Pakistani.

The following would be the response:

1. Indian sources - forget it. Media is completely biased.

2. Neutral sources - Western media has had it against muslims for so long. How can we trust these westerners? Western countries are desperately trying to undermine Pak's efforts to emerge as the messiah of Islamic countries.

3. Pakistani sources - Whatever sources you quote will be swiftly denounced as Indian moles and any Pakistani who corroborates your view will be deemed traitor.

See there is no way you can ever convince these guys.

not even a single piece of source has been given throught the tread and to defend yourselfs your coming out with rubbish like 'they wont belive it' :)))

other than one line rants and lies you indians cant do anything, you get taken to the sword in all discussions, cant come up with proof and than run away. so ye we know who the trolls are.

[suhaib]

May be you failed to read the article.....here read the bold part carefully....Now read,he talks about further consolidation of military gains,which were not allowed by the Indian leadership.For any further consolidation would have meant a bigger war.Kargil operation was launched to get back all the Indian territory which Pak forces had occupied,we achieved that.Whether further military consolidation was needed or not was a political decision,which was taken wisely.


Now take the dictionary and read word by word with their meanings will help.

Also read Nawaz Sharif's memoirs on this issue...

please stop making stuff up, where does he say it was not allowed by indian leadership, HE HAS CLEARLY SAID YOU LOST, accept the fact and swallow it.
india was allready defeated and was trying to only stop the war as it would have lost more and more territory, we all saw the intentions of your leadership and how big a war you wanted when you attacked us from the back after the war ended.

try and provide proof other than one line rants and lies, i know you have a problem with english but its not that hard to understand how you were thrashed.

as for NS i have allready answered about him, he is a lost cause as he has hatred against musharraf, his lies were caught when he said he wasnt aware of the war and you want to believe his memoirs.

[s2k]

please stop making stuff up, where does he say it was not allowed by indian leadership, HE HAS CLEARLY SAID YOU LOST, accept the fact and swallow it.
india was allready defeated and was trying to only stop the war as it would have lost more and more territory, we all saw the intentions of your leadership and how big a war you wanted when you attacked us from the back after the war ended.

try and provide proof other than one line rants and lies, i know you have a problem with english but its not that hard to understand how you were thrashed.

as for NS i have allready answered about him, he is a lost cause as he has hatred against musharraf, his lies were caught when he said he wasnt aware of the war and you want to believe his memoirs.

He didnt say and you selectively quoting his sayings doesnt prove anything.
He clearly said that further consolidation was not done which he termed as a loss.


Go read the whole line again and not just 1st few words....
Tell me how we lost?We gained all our territory lost lesser men than Pakistan in the war.So how did we lose?

I know english isnt your forte so you wont understand what i am trying to say.

Wasnt NS your PM,and isnt Musharaff has been declared a criminal of sorts for his ways in 1999.

Whose PM went running to US to demand a ceasefire???

you know what is a thrashing???Losing half your country and surrendering 90000 POWs....that is thrashing andnot taking back your entire territory and killing more soldiers of your enemy than you lost.

[s2k]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kargil-99.htm

Here read more.......from a neutral perspective....

[Namak_Halaal]

in education and economy sector , we cannot match them



Agreed.

Pakistan cannot match the 750 Million illiterate poor folk living below the bread line, in India.

[LethalSami]

hold on......is he pakistan or indian defense minister???

guys open ur eyes........we got Ghaddars within the gov't.....majority of em.....Gardari, malik and this guy......actually all of PPPP.....

tell this traitor to stick to his shoe making/leather factory and STHU ******

listen to Hamid Gul's response to this.........PWNs this turd

[Stylish Executive]

If the defence minister said that, he's right, this is not some hidden story. Pakistan cannot match India Militarily, in future, maybe, but not as yet.

I see some discussion about Traitor Nawaz Sharif going on. Members here should know that he tried his best to stop the nuclear test in 1998 to the point that the whole nuclear scientist board threatened to resign. 2 days before the nuclear test, PAF guys intercepted an encoded message which signalled that Israel primarily, together with India will attack Pakistan in the next 48 hours. Quickly, C-130 airplane, loaded with nuclear devices, took off from the Peshawar air base to Chagi, Balouchistan. 4 F-16s, fully equipped with Air to Air missile took off with it - with the order to shoot at any remotest sign of danger. Radio communication of F16s were cut off, so that orders cannot be revoked midway.

In addition, flight group "Griffin" took oath of a martyrdom operation and were ready to stage a nuclear attack deep into the Israeli territory.

Irrelevant to this topic, but it is important people know the truth about him and what happened in 1998.

[suhaib]

He didnt say and you selectively quoting his sayings doesnt prove anything.
He clearly said that further consolidation was not done which he termed as a loss.


Go read the whole line again and not just 1st few words....
Tell me how we lost?We gained all our territory lost lesser men than Pakistan in the war.So how did we lose?

I know english isnt your forte so you wont understand what i am trying to say.

Wasnt NS your PM,and isnt Musharaff has been declared a criminal of sorts for his ways in 1999.

Whose PM went running to US to demand a ceasefire???

you know what is a thrashing???Losing half your country and surrendering 90000 POWs....that is thrashing andnot taking back your entire territory and killing more soldiers of your enemy than you lost.

now if you dont know what loss of war means than what can i do, ask an elder to help you read the article if you dont understand english.

no where does he say you lost because of no further consolidation, again get an elder to help you understand it.

6 peaks are still with pakistan, so you didn't regain all territories and during the war india lost more soliders not us, stop counting those killed after the war, during the war your army was getting butchered by us.

musharraf being declared by NS, (his enemy) for 1999 doesnt mean anything, NS personal hatred is obvious.

as for 1971 you again are oblivious of the facts after being fed lies by your country, its funny how you still live in the fantasy of wining kargil, even when proved wrong by your own indian sources and generals. how delusional can you get.

[suhaib]

here is another indian source which shows pakistan still occpies peaks in kargil

--------------------------

Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied


Standing tall and dominating the famous Tiger Hill on the Line of Control (LoC) is a grim reminder of the Kargil war. Point 5353, the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D, remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.
While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.

The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war, has since given up the post as “untenable” given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.
What makes Point 5353 so valuable for the two armies is that it has a clear view of the national highway that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil. The main reason the Army retaliated hard to the Pakistani intrusion in 1999 was that disruption of traffic on the road would cut off supplies to Ladakh and the Siachen glacier.
While officers say that Point 5353 is surrounded by three Indian posts, including Point 5240 and any action from there would be neutralised, the fact remains that artillery observers from the post can easily direct fire on a 25 km stretch of the national highway.
Besides, the most dominating feature in the region has a clear view of the Tiger Hill and surrounding areas.

Sources say Pakistan has constructed concrete bunkers at the location and have a special supply base on their side of the LoC that has substantial reinforcements.
Several attempts to dislodge Pakistani troops from the posts with the help of artillery fire remained unsuccessful till action became impossible after the 2003 ceasefire. The Army has since given up the option of retaking the post in the larger interest of peace in the area.
Even a decade after the war and several revelations by Pakistani officers that the main aim of the intrusion was to cut off the strategic Drass-Kargil highway so that supplies to Siachen would dry up, the road remains under the threat of enemy fire. Besides Drass and Point 5353, several other stretches of the road at places like Kaksar are under Pakistani observation.

While a lot of papers were moved after the Army said that an alternative all-weather road to Leh and Siachen is urgently required, work on the ground remains extremely slow. Efforts are on to make the Manali-Leh highway into an all-weather road but even the most positive estimates say the strategic tunnel at Rohtang pass will take at least seven more years to complete.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/near-tiger-hill-point-5353-still-pakoccupied/488505/

[s2k]

now if you dont know what loss of war means than what can i do, ask an elder to help you read the article if you dont understand english.

no where does he say you lost because of no further consolidation, again get an elder to help you understand it.

6 peaks are still with pakistan, so you didn't regain all territories and during the war india lost more soliders not us, stop counting those killed after the war, during the war your army was getting butchered by us.

musharraf being declared by NS, (his enemy) for 1999 doesnt mean anything, NS personal hatred is obvious.

as for 1971 you again are oblivious of the facts after being fed lies by your country, its funny how you still live in the fantasy of wining kargil, even when proved wrong by your own indian sources and generals. how delusional can you get.

It seems you just close your eyes after the three words......Loss of war in terms of further consolidation diplomatically,politically and militarily and not as loss of war to Pakistan.....

Yes your PM lies about a person who has fled his country as courts are pursuing his criminal activities.....

[s2k]

here is another indian source which shows pakistan still occpies peaks in kargil

--------------------------

Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied


Standing tall and dominating the famous Tiger Hill on the Line of Control (LoC) is a grim reminder of the Kargil war. Point 5353, the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D, remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.
While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.

The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war, has since given up the post as “untenable” given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.
What makes Point 5353 so valuable for the two armies is that it has a clear view of the national highway that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil. The main reason the Army retaliated hard to the Pakistani intrusion in 1999 was that disruption of traffic on the road would cut off supplies to Ladakh and the Siachen glacier.
While officers say that Point 5353 is surrounded by three Indian posts, including Point 5240 and any action from there would be neutralised, the fact remains that artillery observers from the post can easily direct fire on a 25 km stretch of the national highway.
Besides, the most dominating feature in the region has a clear view of the Tiger Hill and surrounding areas.

Sources say Pakistan has constructed concrete bunkers at the location and have a special supply base on their side of the LoC that has substantial reinforcements.
Several attempts to dislodge Pakistani troops from the posts with the help of artillery fire remained unsuccessful till action became impossible after the 2003 ceasefire. The Army has since given up the option of retaking the post in the larger interest of peace in the area.
Even a decade after the war and several revelations by Pakistani officers that the main aim of the intrusion was to cut off the strategic Drass-Kargil highway so that supplies to Siachen would dry up, the road remains under the threat of enemy fire. Besides Drass and Point 5353, several other stretches of the road at places like Kaksar are under Pakistani observation.

While a lot of papers were moved after the Army said that an alternative all-weather road to Leh and Siachen is urgently required, work on the ground remains extremely slow. Efforts are on to make the Manali-Leh highway into an all-weather road but even the most positive estimates say the strategic tunnel at Rohtang pass will take at least seven more years to complete.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/near-tiger-hill-point-5353-still-pakoccupied/488505/

Our defence Minister has already clarified that point 5353 lies with India and not Pakistan........

'Point 5353 held by India'

By Atul Aneja

NEW DELHI, JAN. 1. The Defence Minister, Mr. George Fernandes, indicated that Indian forces were now holding Point 5353, a 17,561-feet high feature which is important for the defence of a key sector on the Line of Control (LoC) in Kashmir. During his latest visit to the border areas, he stood on this peak and got himself photographed.

The issue of control over the point triggered a major controversy last year. Highly-placed Government forces said Pakistan had occupied the feature, located on the LoC, during the Kargil war.

It is not clear whether the Pakistani forces vacated the feature at the end of the Kargil war and subsequently re-occupied it or never left this high ground in the first place. By occupying the point, it kept a strict vigil on Marpo La, a key pass on the LoC which India dominates. Occupation had also supplemented Pakistan's observation of the national Highway 1A.

It is not clear from Mr. Fernandes' statement whether Pakistan vacated this area on its own or whether the height had been recaptured by Indian forces. Nevertheless, by controlling this height, India - in a military sense - had consolidated its hold over the LoC, analysts here said. The Pakistani occupation of the point and its subsequent control by India raises a key question. Is it a violation of a confidence-building agreement concluded by both sides?

According to Mr. Fernandes, Pakistan, according to a report of the United Nations, ``re-deployed'' a division of its troops from the border in the wake of the Prime Minister, Mr. Atal Behari Vajpayee's peace initiative in Kashmir. But ``taking in view the long borders, redeployment of one division cannot be termed as adequate'', he observed. A conventional division comprises of around 10,000 troops.

[suhaib]

It seems you just close your eyes after the three words......Loss of war in terms of further consolidation diplomatically,politically and militarily and not as loss of war to Pakistan.....

Yes your PM lies about a person who has fled his country as courts are pursuing his criminal activities.....

please read the article again, this time with some help from someone who understand english.

there could be no further consolidation when you were defeated and crushed,

do you even know how important peak 5353 is, which is under pak control after the kargil war, just losing that is a huge loss for you, its the highest peak in kargil and your major highway is on the rader of our guns right now.

[suhaib]

Our defence Minister has already clarified that point 5353 lies with India and not Pakistan........

'Point 5353 held by India'

By Atul Aneja

NEW DELHI, JAN. 1. The Defence Minister, Mr. George Fernandes, indicated that Indian forces were now holding Point 5353, a 17,561-feet high feature which is important for the defence of a key sector on the Line of Control (LoC) in Kashmir. During his latest visit to the border areas, he stood on this peak and got himself photographed.

The issue of control over the point triggered a major controversy last year. Highly-placed Government forces said Pakistan had occupied the feature, located on the LoC, during the Kargil war.

It is not clear whether the Pakistani forces vacated the feature at the end of the Kargil war and subsequently re-occupied it or never left this high ground in the first place. By occupying the point, it kept a strict vigil on Marpo La, a key pass on the LoC which India dominates. Occupation had also supplemented Pakistan's observation of the national Highway 1A.

It is not clear from Mr. Fernandes' statement whether Pakistan vacated this area on its own or whether the height had been recaptured by Indian forces. Nevertheless, by controlling this height, India - in a military sense - had consolidated its hold over the LoC, analysts here said. The Pakistani occupation of the point and its subsequent control by India raises a key question. Is it a violation of a confidence-building agreement concluded by both sides?

According to Mr. Fernandes, Pakistan, according to a report of the United Nations, ``re-deployed'' a division of its troops from the border in the wake of the Prime Minister, Mr. Atal Behari Vajpayee's peace initiative in Kashmir. But ``taking in view the long borders, redeployment of one division cannot be termed as adequate'', he observed. A conventional division comprises of around 10,000 troops.

its been debunked allready, Here is an Indian writer blasting the Indian govt for lying about peak 5353.



Fact and fiction on Point 5353

The defence establishment's response to the controversy over Point 5353 plumbs new depths.

PRAVEEN SWAMI

IN August, news broke that Pakistan holds one of the most important mountain features in the Drass Sector, Point 5353-metres. Since then, there has been a welter of fresh revelations, the most important of them being lawyer and Rajya Sabha MP R.K. Anand' s disclosure that five other positions on the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC) are held by Pakistan. Anand also made public Army's internal correspondence on the causes of the debacle over Point 5353. The revelations did not lead to a considered rebuttal, but generated a wave of hostile official polemic, often through pro-establishment journalists. One so-called security affairs expert charged that the revelations were part of a Pakistani intelligence plot to generate a "divisive debate" in Indi a.

Addressing an audience of businessmen in Mumbai in early August, Union Defence Minister George Fernandes put forward the sole cogent official response to the revelations about Point 5353. "5353," he said, "is the point over which the LoC goes. The fact i s, our troops had never occupied that. The normal practice among them has been that where the line goes over a peak, then nobody occupies it." The Minister then proceeded to assault what he perceived to be irresponsible media organisations, much to the d elight of the assembled Mumbai businesspersons, many of whom have had their own skirmishes with reporters. But an analysis of Fernandes' statement shows not only little concern for fact, but an alarming willingness to use falsehood to ensure that his cho sen team in the defence establishment can continue to be incompetent with impunity.

"5353 is the point over which the LoC goes"

Assertions that the LoC is imprecisely defined on the ground, and that the territorial status of Point 5353 is therefore unclear, have formed the central component of official discourse on the controversy. A few hours spent poring over old newspapers are all that it takes to set the record straight. Sadly, few of the many commentators who have engaged with the revelations made in Frontline and other publications on the status of Point 5353 have seen it fit to make the effort.

During the Kargil war, Pakistan had put forward claims that the LoC was undefined on the ground, and that its territorial contours were imprecise. An irate spokesman of the Union Ministry of External Affairs responded on June 19, 1999. "The LoC is well d efined and delineated," he said, "and is the very cornerstone of Indo-Pakistan relations." Pointing out that detailed co-ordinates of the LoC were given in 19 annexures to the agreement of December 11, 1972, arrived at between Lieutenant-General Abdul Ha mid Khan and Lieutenant-General P.S. Bhagat, the spokesman added that "so far as the de jure position is concerned, there are no doubts."

Speaking in New Delhi on June 23, 1999, his first press conference after military operations began in Kargil, Chief of the Army Staff V.P. Malik was even more explicit. "In today's display," he said after a formal presentation, "we have also given you de tails of the LoC; its delineation; how it was delineated." "With marked maps, a military man without a GPS (Global Positioning System) can make an error of a few hundred metres on the ground, but an error of 8 to 9 kilometres is unimaginable."

No one appeared to be in any doubt about just where Point 5353 was during the Kargil war itself. The Press Trust of India (PTI) put out official responses to Pakistan claims that Point 5353 was on its side of the LoC on July 28, 1999. "The maps signed by the Indian and Pakistani DGMOs (Directors General of Military Operations) in 1972 clearly indicate that it belongs to India," the PTI despatch noted. On July 30, a PTI depatch repeated the assertion in a report on fighting around Point 5353: "In this se ctor, Pakistan claims some mountains to be a part of this territory whereas the maps signed between the Directors General of Military Operations in December 1972, are contrary to this claim."

Maps published in Frontline, and also separate documents made available to the press by Anand, both make clear that Point 5353 is at an aerial distance of almost a kilometre from the LoC on the Indian side. On the ground, that would mean a trek of several kilometres, given the terrain's savage contours. How what was "well defined" and "well delineated" only a year ago has now become so confused is a question only the defence establishment's apologists can answer.

"Where the line goes over a peak, nobody occupies it"

Leaving aside the so far undenied fact that Pakistan is indeed in occupation of Point 5353, this second element of Fernandes' argument raises more than a few interesting issues. Right through the Kargil war, Indian officials made clear that the fight for Point 5353 had been joined. But that fight would have served little purpose had the strategically located peak not fallen inside Indian territory.

Northern Command chief H.M. Khanna announced in Srinagar on July 21, 1999 that while the bulk of the Pakistan intrusion had been vacated, "some 50 to 70 intruders still held three positions along the LoC in Kargil". Two days later, The Tribune, ci ting official reports, noted that "fierce fighting was on in Batalik and Kaksar sub-sectors as the Indian troops launched operations to evict the intruders from the three pockets they were holding." "Fighting," the report noted, "was under way at Point 5 353 in Drass, Muntho Dhalo and Shangruti Ridge in Batalik, and also at a position in Kaksar." These are much the same areas as Anand referred to in his press conference.

Nothing much changed over the next few days. On July 24, The Tribune again reported that "Pakistani intruders continued to hold their position in the small pockets of intrusion". The same day, the Asian Age's special correspondents in New D elhi and Srinagar quoted Union Defence Minister George Fernandes as saying that "a very few Pakistani soldiers are occupying one point each in Drass. Batalik and Mushkoh." "These points," he insisted, "will be cleared at any time." Officials did their be st to prove their Minister right, announcing both on July 25 and July 26, 1999 that the last of the intrusions had been cleared.

Fernandes and Lieutenant-General Nirmal Vij, the Director-General of Military Operations (DGMO), were, in fact, being economical with the truth. On July 28, PTI reported that fighting continued in several areas. One soldier was killed in shelling in the Batalik area while another died in the Muntho Dalo area. The Pakistan Army, PTI recorded, "also launched a counter-attack on Sando Top and Zulu Spur." The Zulu Spur forms the junction of ridges from the Mushkoh Valley and the Marpo La area. Most importan t of all, PTI noted that "in Mushkoh sub-sector of Drass both sides exchanged small arms fire around Point 5353". What Indian troops were doing there if the peak is not on the Indian side of the LoC remains a mystery - particularly if, as the Army's publ ic relations staff insist, the peak is of little strategic significance and poses no real threat to National Highway 1A.

Pakistan, which now denies that it holds any territory on the Indian side of the LoC, clearly understood the gains it had made. On July 26, even as officials in New Delhi announced that the last Pakistani intruder had been evicted from the Indian side of the LoC, the Pakistan Army's Brigadier Rashid Qureshi made a significant, but little noticed, statement. The Pakistani newspaper Dawn reported that "contrary to Indian claims, the Pakistan Army is still holding some strategic heights along the Li ne of Control and can effectively tackle any Indian attack." "We are in a position to target Indian vehicles on the Kargil-Drass road," it quoted Qureshi as saying.

But in the triumphal glow provoked by the end of Operation Vijay, news regarding Point 5353 disappeared from the press. No reportage on the fighting in the area appeared after the PTI report of July 28. A similar fate befell operations in the Batalik are a. On July 9, Army spokesperson Bikram Singh announced that "valiant Gorkha Rifles soldiers, who had recaptured Khalobar and Point 5287, regained point 4821 and Kukerthang". "The gallant Bihar regiment," he continued, "took control of the Tharu hills in an overnight operation." "Now," he concluded, "only one or two pockets where the intruders are giving resistance are left to be recaptured." Nothing about those pockets, which included the Shangruti feature on the LoC, was heard of again.

"Fact is, our troops had never occupied that"

The argument that Point 5353 was never held by India has been regularly used by the Army public relations apparatus to rebut the charge that operational incompetence and strategic errors led to its occupation by Pakistan during the Kargil war. The claim is, in fact, true. India did not hold Point 5353 before the war broke out. What has not been reported widely is that this statement of fact rebuts nothing, for no one ever claimed that the peak was physically held by India before the war. Indeed, reports that appeared in Frontline and Business Line made quite clear that the peak was not held by either side in the build-up to the conflict.

Point 5353, along with the features around it, was occupied by the Pakistani troops at the start of the Kargil war. When the hostilities ended, the Indian troops had succeeded only in taking back Charlie 6 and Charlier 7, two secondary positions on the M arpo La ridgeline. The Indian troops had also been unable to evict Pakistani soldiers from Point 5240, some 1,200 metres from Point 5353 as the crow flies. Amar Aul, the 56 Brigade Commander in charge of the operations to secure Point 5353, responded by occupying two heights on the Pakistani side of the LoC, 4875 and 4251, just before the ceasefire came into force.

Aul later tried to use these two heights to bring about a territorial exchange. In mid-August 1999, his efforts bore fruit, and both sides committed themselves to leave Points 5353, 5240, 4251 and 4875 unoccupied. Indian and Pakistani troops pulled back to their pre-Kargil position as part of a larger agreement between their respective DGMOs. In October that year, however, the deal broke down. Aul tasked the 16 Grenadiers to take Point 5240 and the 1/3 Gorkha Rifles to occupy Point 5353, choosing to vio late the August agreement rather than risk a Pakistani reoccupation of these positions. The operation was mishandled, and when the Pakistani troops detected the Indian presence on 5240, they promptly launched a counter-assault on Point 5353.

Pakistan rapidly consolidated its position on 5353 after the abortive Indian offensive. Concrete bunkers came up on the peak, and a road was constructed to the base of the peak of Benazir Post. And with Point 5353 and its adjoining area now linked by roa d to Pakistan's rear headquarters at Gultari, any attack will lead to a full-blown resumption of hostilities. No official from the Army or the Defence Ministry has, until the third week of September, denied this sequence of events.

Nor has a denial been made of significant new revelations made by Anand. Anand made available the correspondence between Captain Navneet Mehta, who led an unsuccessful attack on Peak 5353 in May 1999. The correspondence outlines the errors that led to th is debacle. Aul has not been called to account for his actions. Nor has the Army denied or accepted this highly decorated solider's part in the debacle. Neither have his superiors seen it fit to explain why Pakistan was left in possession of the peak, an d why the subsequent exchange-deal was terminated to India's evident disadvantage. Most significant, Anand's claim that Point 5353 was indeed held by India in 1992-1993, successfully cutting off Pakistani supply routes, has not been rebutted.

In the wake of Anand's intervention on the 5353 debate, General Malik has chosen to distance himself from the entire controversy. At an August 31 press conference, held to inaugurate the Army Wives Welfare Association's website, Malik said the issue had now entered the "political domain." "We are going through his statement," Malik said. "We have the answer, but let the government react." Coming from an Army chief who allowed his officers to brief the Bharatiya Janata Party on the conduct of the Kargil war, and permitted his soldiers to host a Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh-organised religious function in Leh, the new disdain for politics is interesting.

The worrying lack of answers about Point 5353 is not the only problematical aspect of the affair. Many of the Army's responses to Point 5353 stories were put out not through attributable statements, for which officials could later be held accountable, bu t through off-the-record briefings held behind closed doors. In effect, a section of the media allowed itself to be used as the public relations wing of an incompetent defence apparatus. One Calcutta-based daily even apologised for the unpardonable sin o f having failed to censor Anand's press conference on behalf of the defence establishment.

India's defence establishment and much of the press have chosen to hide from uncomfortable truth. But the silence does no one any favours, least of all the soldiers who could one day have to pay again with their lives for the failures of the Kargil war.

[suhaib]

there is also video evidence of it, which i will post later, however from the article above you can see how important point 5353 is which is under pak control after kargil war.

[s2k]

please read the article again, this time with some help from someone who understand english.

there could be no further consolidation when you were defeated and crushed,

do you even know how important peak 5353 is, which is under pak control after the kargil war, just losing that is a huge loss for you, its the highest peak in kargil and your major highway is on the rader of our guns right now.

I guess you need some serious help regarding English....

By what way we were crushed???

The General you quote himself says that we regained all lost territories and won tactical victories.....how it is crushed and defeated?

The defence Minister of India has already said that point 5353 is occupied by India.

If Pakistan has won the war,how come we still are in possesion of every bit of territory that Pak forces occupied?

If the major highway is on the radar of your guns how came its still in use by Army and Pakistan forces have not fired a single shell on it??

How come suddenly from the claim of occupying 6 peaks come down to one point 5353?

How come the same Praveen Swami wrote the article for Frontline and also works for the Indian express???Is he the only one priviledged to the information?

[s2k]

there is also video evidence of it, which i will post later, however from the article above you can see how important point 5353 is which is under pak control after kargil war.

I am waiting for you to post some India Tv or NewsX channel masala video..

[s2k]

its been debunked allready, Here is an Indian writer blasting the Indian govt for lying about peak 5353.

LOL a single Journalist debunking the statement of India's Defence Minister......

Thats laughable.....

[suhaib]

I guess you need some serious help regarding English....

By what way we were crushed???

The General you quote himself says that we regained all lost territories and won tactical victories.....how it is crushed and defeated?

The defence Minister of India has already said that point 5353 is occupied by India.

If Pakistan has won the war,how come we still are in possesion of every bit of territory that Pak forces occupied?

If the major highway is on the radar of your guns how came its still in use by Army and Pakistan forces have not fired a single shell on it??

How come suddenly from the claim of occupying 6 peaks come down to one point 5353?

How come the same Praveen Swami wrote the article for Frontline and also works for the Indian express???Is he the only one priviledged to the information?

when you dont understand english you will obviously start blaming others for it when you cant even understand articles by your own media.

please post a neutral source to defend your rubbish on your peaks which we occupied after kargil war.

you seem to only like ranting without providing any proof and sprout lies after lies, i have given you facts straight from your own media and generals, now if you want to stay blind its up to you.

[suhaib]

I am waiting for you to post some India Tv or NewsX channel masala video..

so you have even lost your faith in indian media :)))

[suhaib]

LOL a single Journalist debunking the statement of India's Defence Minister......

Thats laughable.....

there are many sources and enought evidence that proves pakistan still has the peaks, as for defence minister his job is to defend your country, he will be just blind as you. try and prove it from a neutral source

[s2k]

so you have even lost your faith in indian media :)))

Well India Tv and Newsx are masala news channels....nothing wrong in saying that.....

[s2k]

there are many sources and enought evidence that proves pakistan still has the peaks, as for defence minister his job is to defend your country, he will be just blind as you. try and prove it from a neutral source

Your PM lies

Our Defence Minsiter lies

So who says the truth Praveen Swami and RK Anand????

Here is your neutral source....

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kargil-99.htm

[suhaib]

Well India Tv and Newsx are masala news channels....nothing wrong in saying that.....

you mean anything that exposes your lies is a masala news channel. :)))

[suhaib]

Your PM lies

Our Defence Minsiter lies

So who says the truth Praveen Swami and RK Anand????

Here is your neutral source....

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kargil-99.htm

they are indians arnt they, they are indian journalists?

you will just go on and on with your one liner rants and not believe anyone who doesnt agree with you, indians saying how pak still occupies the peaks and you loss says alot itself.

as for your neutral source can you please quote me where it says these peaks are still under your control.

[s2k]

you mean anything that exposes your lies is a masala news channel. :)))

LOL I said you will post videos from some masala news channel like NewsX or India Tv.I am sure such an important news like this where Pakistan Crushed India in a war and holds such an important strategic advantage will be covered by lots of channels across the world. :)))

[suhaib]

LOL I said you will post videos from some masala news channel like NewsX or India Tv.I am sure such an important news like this where Pakistan Crushed India in a war and holds such an important strategic advantage will be covered by lots of channels across the world. :)))

like i said, you will just go blind with the facts that you call your own media masala who exposes you :)))

[s2k]

they are indians arnt they, they are indian journalists?

you will just go on and on with your one liner rants and not believe anyone who doesnt agree with you, indians saying how pak still occupies the peaks and you loss says alot itself.



You mean 2 Indian people........

Isnt your PM a PAkistani?His saying what happened in Kargil says a lot doesnt it....

[s2k]

like i said, you will just go blind with the facts that you call your own media masala who exposes you :)))


Are you saying after Pakistan so called crushed India and still holds a strategic point only NewsX and IndiaTv covered it?????

No Pakistani media channel no western Media channel?No one covered it?

[Namak_Halaal]

Suhaib, there's a saying, to hide one lie you must speak another 1000. I'm sure you realise this when chatting with s2K.

[s2k]

Haha delusional people landing in by heaps........

when your lies get caught call other liars.....

[cornered-tigers]

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So then what are you doing at your post? what is army doing with all the budget eaten up?

[KingKhanWC]

We have gone past conventional warfare because of nuclear weapons and are now in a new phase of asymmetric warfare this is why India after all it's blabbering did not strike any so called 'terrorist bases' in Pakistan after the Mumbai attacks. India instead has used asymmetric warfare by supporting terrorists to attack Pakistan with it's zionist/neocon allies. This is a desperate move to destabilise Pakistan as much as they can while the Americans are in Afghanistan.

A lot of India's military spending is done to keep others happy. For them to receive foreign policy support they must buy military hardware from them. David Cameron was in India not long ago with only one goal to sell India weapons.

The only issue is India is a nation along with Israel who will have extremist fascist ideologies coming into government. With such ideologies it's always a risk they might want to use their weapons, however foolish it may be to do so.

[AtifUk]

To be honest Pakistan shouldnt worry about a having a war with India as it isn't in both countries interests.

Lockheed Martin needing a sales boost? That's a problem for a lot of countries.. just ask Iraq and Afghanistan. That's the reason i'm happy Pak politicians keep on building a military to match India.

[suhaib]

You mean 2 Indian people........

Isnt your PM a PAkistani?His saying what happened in Kargil says a lot doesnt it....

i am talking about independant journalists, there are many indians who have acknowledged the facts yet most remain deluded and blind.

ns is just letting out his personal hatred for mush, it proves nothing cause he has been caught lieing on kargil that he was unaware, yet you want to listen to him :)))

[suhaib]

Are you saying after Pakistan so called crushed India and still holds a strategic point only NewsX and IndiaTv covered it?????

No Pakistani media channel no western Media channel?No one covered it?

so you want pakistani sources now,

does your excuses stop, if i posted a pakistani source you would call it crap, now that i posted so many indian sources you want a pakistani one :))) get real kid.

[suhaib]

Suhaib, there's a saying, to hide one lie you must speak another 1000. I'm sure you realise this when chatting with s2K.

what is funny is that he gets pawned in every debate about our wars, posts one line rants and than runs away. then he will come back in another thread claiming he won and we never had proof and it was us that ran away. :)))

there deluded and blinded posts are only making themselves look like fools

[pullshot]

One Indian is bravely fighting against 5 pakistani... now thats something new to me... India is changed

[LethalSami]

usually its Pakistan fighting against India thats 5x its size...........

[shortbread]

Its strange how the measure of military might is where 'pro Pakistan/India posters' find comfort in these days and enables them to ignore the political and social failures around them.

What Mukhtar sahib has stated is a truth that all Pakistanis know, although it pains many to admit the same. In a state where almost all hope is lost and failures are slowly becoming the norm the last shred of pride are by default the Intelligence and Defense forces. This unfortunately means there is very little reasoning as to whether there is any sense in beefing up an ineffective tool for repairing the countries many problems like Education, Economy, Poverty, Healthcare, Infrastructure, Debt, Global apathy and hypocrisy etc....etc.... Today the burden of these forces is growing to an extent that the country is struggling to maintain it, let alone feed its growth.

I pity the Indian posters even more, for the fact that they rely on a reflection from Pakistan to have any self respect for themselves. Perhaps all of you know yourself that bloating your so called achievements on the forum of any other half decent country would simply be ignored or end up being the butt of jokes. Anyways you guys are always welcome to post your misplaced sense of national pride on Pakistani forums, helps us aim for the higher bar with whatever little we have.

I hope India's defense expenditure is helping in the fight against Naxalism, where a band of poverty stricken people who have been grossly ignored by the urban and more fortunate, have decided to stand up for themselves. A failed agricultural supply chain that is far far worser than Pakistan's means that Indian farmers are still struggling with poverty while rest of the country is struggling to afford a normal diet leading to an ever rising Inflation. Perhaps you guys can include this into the criterias for defense vendors to fulfill when India decides to call for another military tender to help with its never dying insecurity.

I hope that Pakistani and Indian establishments grow out of their juvenile thought process since none of their countrymen ever will!!!

[123]

maybe one of you guys (suhaib or S2k) visit the concerned peak and camp there for a week to confirm who controls it.

It doesn't matter who does, what matters is that 1000s of people died and neither country achieved anything out of it. Both countries lost and that's the reality.

Its a shame that we humans term victory and defeat based on the number of humans killed by each side.

[Garuda]

maybe one of you guys (suhaib or S2k) visit the concerned peak and camp there for a week to confirm who controls it.

It doesn't matter who does, what matters is that 1000s of people died and neither country achieved anything out of it. Both countries lost and that's the reality.

Its a shame that we humans term victory and defeat based on the number of humans killed by each side.

My brother was around there just 2 weeks back. Had a nice journey on NH 1 too. So I am sure who controls it :)

People can argue here and provide us some timepass material.

[Waseem]

I don't really see an issue here, he is just saying the obvious thing that we cannot match Indian military as India is 8 times bigger than us and it would be stupid if we try to spend millions of Dollars just to match India.
We do need to spend a lot on weapons (unfortunately) but no need to go crazy with this as we have nukes.

[Sachin85]

teach that to your own general who claims pak victory.

and forget about history, please learn english first, the minister has said pak doesnt have the latest modern equipment india does and no one claimed it, cause we have always kicked your butts with inferior equipment.

Hahahah, your army surrendered!! Here you are trying to act tough!

He said you do not have the money to buy the equipment India has!

You cant wish away history! Surrendering with 90,000 POWs is not going to be forgotten. Remember that.

Your army of lions surrendered!

[Master Blaster]

I think since the over hyped nuke bomb was made, a large portion of the defense budget is being spent for the luxuries of the top military men and left over small portion is used to buy equipment.

This claim from the Pak defense minister is not surprising since India seems to be spending most of its defense budget for its military while, Pak seems to be spending for its military men.

[123]

I think since the over hyped nuke bomb was made, a large portion of the defense budget is being spent for the luxuries of the top military men and left over small portion is used to buy equipment.

This claim from the Pak defense minister is not surprising since India seems to be spending most of its defense budget for its military while, Pak seems to be spending for its military men.

if Indian ministers can steal millions of dollars in the telecom scam, I am sure they are stealing billions buying military equipment. Corruption wise both countries are trying to out-do each other but we know who is the sikandar :zardari

[howzzat]

^ hey but lets stop being critical of army or else a certain Stylish Executive will start 10 threads praising army and other one-eyed ppers will say you just want to get rid of army completely.

If you post a single comment critical of Army, in pp that means you want to get rid of the whole godamm army. Mothers, sisters getting pulled out of houses will be logical argument after that

[ahamedirshad123]

Pak defense minister is Ijaj Butt's relative? :P

[Romali_rotti]

Def Minister only stated the obvious...

[Romali_rotti]

and this is accurate but he has phrased this wrong.

1)pakistan cant win a prolonged conventional conflict with the Indians

2)our nukes have ensured that neither can they

3)our nuclear threshold is very very low.

4) our weapons purchases are a deterrence and are used to defend paksitan from limited cross border actions and cold start.

5) all wars of the future will be total wars

6) 80% of indian weapon purchases have been paksitan centric. They are looking to change their doctrines to combat china but the strategic adn geopolitical situation is so fluid they arent too sure either.

7) our policy is to concentrate on stand off weopons and force multipliers and assymetrical warfare..but this takes time to reorient a conventional lumbering force..


Agree with all except for the highlighted bit, the days when Pakistan mainly revolved around India's plans are long gone. It is all about China now.......

[NJamal]

We were never superior to India in terms of Military equipment or sheer number of forces through out our history and never will be, but we can stand and fight against them in any conflict regardless of our inferiority.

[Abdullah22]

He is right why would we want to match them:
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xb5JTmMPN_c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

We should look forward and not backward.

[Namak_Halaal]

Gotta laugh at the claims the Indian Military is predominately for China. Yeah I can see those F35 next generation jets and troops crossing the Himalayas in a jiffy and attacking the heart of China mainland, let alone the borders.

[jheenga]

in education and economy sector , we cannot match them

military is only sector we spend more than 50% of our budget and still cannot match them . then why are we doing that ?


zindagi ka hamare maqsad hai na India se barabari :facepalm: bhooke maro lekin barabari dikhao

:asif


too good Mr Looney :sami

[jheenga]

LOL! Says the guy who debates on lies and then claims the proof was erased!




Spot on. s2k, Jheenga, and Doc SF - were crying a river accusing myself and KKWC of turning Nuclear related threads into an issue of PAK vs IND/Islam vs. Hindu debates when the truth is they are doing the very same thing in this thread - mirror mirror on the wall! Note how this thread changed direction since s2k, a self confessing advocate of Hinduvta, and jheenga, posted their responses.

Got to admire their insecurity.

Whats wrong wid you . mene kaha kara ? & i got no doubt you are da official bomb & bjp spokesman :sami

[ace4rmspace]

You see what I mean now Jheengey?

[jheenga]

You see what I mean now Jheengey?

Kia ace ? If you mean dese guys,lol they will be forever talking & ranting without getting anywhere :facepalm:




i like dis facepalm smiley :asif

[Keith]

and in the meantime whilst we all bolster our defences by spending millions and millions of dollars our people are dying of starvation and children continue to be illiterate and uneducated ....

[ace4rmspace]

Well aslong as we have The Bomb, we have nothing to worry about Keith.

[Romali_rotti]

Gotta laugh at the claims the Indian Military is predominately for China. Yeah I can see those F35 next generation jets and troops crossing the Himalayas in a jiffy and attacking the heart of China mainland, let alone the borders.

It is all about China, we dont need to do anything to you, Pakistan is in self destruction mode oh whoops I mean safe hands, say hi to my boi Zadari.. When it comes to Pakistan all we have to do is sit and watch but China on the other hand..

[Namak_Halaal]

It is all about China, we dont need to do anything to you, Pakistan is in self destruction mode oh whoops I mean safe hands, say hi to my boi Zadari.. When it comes to Pakistan all we have to do is sit and watch but China on the other hand..

Sure it is. India snapping up F35 which are useless against China (educate yourself on the range and specs), in the same way as AGNI series.

The rest of your post is gibberish emotive rhetoric.

Islamic Bomb has India in it's place. :)

[Stylish Executive]

Islamic Bomb has India in it's place.

Very, very very true. Most people don't realize the strategic balance exerted by Pakistan in the global geopolitical scenario due to its "Islamic bomb"

[Romali_rotti]

Sure it is. India snapping up F35 which are useless against China (educate yourself on the range and specs), in the same way as AGNI series.

The rest of your post is gibberish emotive rhetoric.

Islamic Bomb has India in it's place. :)

First of all we already turned down the F-35s, 2nd of all China has each and every Indian state covered with a more potent nuclear warhead than what either Pakistan or India have in their arsenal... If India and China go on a collision course it will pretty much be all over for India and while India ofcourse will hurt China at the end of the day they will survive and we WONT......Now you keep living in your lala land with your Islamic bomb,, oh yeah and make sure its a good little girl and prays 5 times a day as well...

[Stylish Executive]

First of all we already turned down the F-35s, 2nd of all China has each and every Indian state covered with a more potent nuclear warhead than what either Pakistan or India have in their arsenal... If India and China go on a collision course it will pretty much be all over for India and while India ofcourse will hurt China at the end of the day they will survive and we WONT......Now you keep living in your lala land with your Islamic bomb,, oh yeah and make sure its a good little girl and prays 5 times a day as well...

Admit it or not... it is the "Islamic bomb" which keeps you in check. ;)

You can deny of course (which I'm sure you will at the next post). :)

[Namak_Halaal]

First of all we already turned down the F-35s, 2nd of all China has each and every Indian state covered with a more potent nuclear warhead than what either Pakistan or India have in their arsenal... If India and China go on a collision course it will pretty much be all over for India and while India ofcourse will hurt China at the end of the day they will survive and we WONT......

LOL! Here I was think China and India are working towards a better military relationship..


Now you keep living in your lala land with your Islamic bomb,, oh yeah and make sure its a good little girl and prays 5 times a day as well...

Touchy touchy aren’t we.

I could retort by making sure our bomb drinks cow urine etc, but I won’t. Your reaction sums up India's fear of the Islamic Bomb.

:)

[Garuda]

Admit it or not... it is the "Islamic bomb" which keeps you in check. ;)

You can deny of course (which I'm sure you will at the next post). :)
Before the Islamic bomb India attacked Pakistan every alternate day?

India waited for 40 years or so for the bomb to come under check. I wonder why they didn't attack before the bomb ?

[Romali_rotti]

Admit it or not... it is the "Islamic bomb" which keeps you in check. ;)

You can deny of course (which I'm sure you will at the next post). :)

I am not denying Pakistan's nuclear bomb is not a threat to India. India would never attack Pakistan and vice Versa but the Chinese Agression towards India is on the rise and it will only get worse as they assert their dominance more and more.. To put it Blunty China is our biggest worry...

[Namak_Halaal]

Before the Islamic bomb India attacked Pakistan every alternate day?

India waited for 40 years or so for the bomb to come under check. I wonder why they didn't attack before the bomb ?

It's hard to believe you have a majored in Physics when common sense fails to prevail.

[Romali_rotti]

LOL! Here I was think China and India are working towards a better military relationship..

Well thats the way you think when you live in LALA Land...


Touchy touchy aren’t we.

I could retort by making sure our bomb drinks cow urine etc, but I won’t. Your reaction sums up India's fear of the Islamic Bomb.

A bit touchy ??? look who is talking here the lala land wonder who gave the nuke a religion in the thread, "Islamic bomb"....


:)


Bold

[Namak_Halaal]

Well that didn't last too long.

Clearly RR hasn't been reading up on the news.

He must be ashamed of India, I know I would be.

[Romali_rotti]

when common sense fails to prevail.

Thats really weird because its the same way we feel about you..:)

[Eagle_Eye]

Thats really weird because its the same way we feel about you..:)

Is this a royal "We" or the one from the beautiful mind? :)

[Romali_rotti]

Well that didn't last too long.

Clearly RR hasn't been reading up on the news.

He must be ashamed of India, I know I would be.

lol This chap is getting better by the post...From giving his knod of approval for the Americans to kill Pak civilians on another thread to newspapers...

[Romali_rotti]

Is this a royal "We" or the one from the beautiful mind? :)

Wow the little Namak soldiers have started marching lol..

[Eagle_Eye]

Wow the little Namak soldiers have started marching lol..

Definitely from the beautiful mind... :)

[Stylish Executive]

Before the Islamic bomb India attacked Pakistan every alternate day?

India waited for 40 years or so for the bomb to come under check. I wonder why they didn't attack before the bomb ?

Yes, India did. 1948, 1965 was initiated by India, as well as 1971 towards the end.

After "Islamic Bomb", India so far didn't try any misadventure. Of course, they were threatening in 2008, but backed off as soon as Pakistan army took positions near the border (again, in the fear of "Islamic bomb").

"Islamic bomb" has indeed put India back in place.

I am not denying Pakistan's nuclear bomb is not a threat to India. India would never attack Pakistan and vice Versa but the Chinese Agression towards India is on the rise and it will only get worse as they assert their dominance more and more.. To put it Blunty China is our biggest worry...

India is already training arming TTP terrorists and waging a 4th Generation war on Pakistan. Don't tell me they aren't because there are photos of Indian army rifle, advanced navigation equipment recovered from TTP terrorists.

As far as China is concerned, they didn't do anything to you. India-china trade ties are strong. Why are you being paranoid about China?

[Namak_Halaal]

Thats really weird because its the same way we feel about you..:)

Aww bless, defending your toy soilders.

:)

[Romali_rotti]

As far as China is concerned, they didn't do anything to you. India-china trade ties are strong. Why are you being paranoid about China?

They already defeated us in a war before, they are not building naval ports in Pakistan because they LOVE YOU or in Bangladesh & Sri Lanka. They are encircling India they want to suffocate us, there is no room for 2 lions in the same jungle.. I suggest you read up on India's concerns on China........

[Romali_rotti]

Aww bless, defending your toy soilders.

:)

Bless you to my lala land warrior..

[Namak_Halaal]

Yes, India did. 1948, 1965 was initiated by India, as well as 1971 towards the end.

After "Islamic Bomb", India so far didn't try any misadventure. Of course, they were threatening in 2008, but backed off as soon as Pakistan army took positions near the border (again, in the fear of "Islamic bomb").

"Islamic bomb" has indeed put India back in place.



Common sense is painfully obvious.

[Stylish Executive]

They already defeated us in a war before, they are not building naval ports in Pakistan because they LOVE YOU or in Bangladesh & Sri Lanka. They are encircling India they want to suffocate us, there is no room for 2 lions in the same jungle.. I suggest you read up on India's concerns on China........

Yes, they're building Naval port in Pakistan. You have to understand that it is NOT a chinese military base that you should be scared of. India has the whole Indian ocean to build Naval ports anywhere it wants - so, where does the idea of suffocation come from?

Stop thinking based on media hype and come to your sense. China is not a threat to you if you don't provoke them. Simple.

[Garuda]

Yes, India did. 1948, 1965 was initiated by India, as well as 1971 towards the end.

After "Islamic Bomb", India so far didn't try any misadventure. Of course, they were threatening in 2008, but backed off as soon as Pakistan army took positions near the border (again, in the fear of "Islamic bomb").

"Islamic bomb" has indeed put India back in place.



India is already training arming TTP terrorists and waging a 4th Generation war on Pakistan. Don't tell me they aren't because there are photos of Indian army rifle, advanced navigation equipment recovered from TTP terrorists.

As far as China is concerned, they didn't do anything to you. India-china trade ties are strong. Why are you being paranoid about China?

No, check history.

1971, India did towards end ??? how can one start a war towards end? The war has already been started.

[Namak_Halaal]

Bless you to my lala land warrior..

Please save your blessings for your MooMoo land countrymen; they need it more than I.

:)

[Namak_Halaal]

No, check history.

1971, India did towards end ??? how can one start a war towards end? The war has already been started.

:facepalm:

The history of WW2 falsifies every word you post above - check the history.

It's painful just to read this stuff.

[Romali_rotti]

Yes, they're building Naval port in Pakistan. You have to understand that it is NOT a chinese military base that you should be scared of. India has the whole Indian ocean to build Naval ports anywhere it wants - so, where does the idea of suffocation come from?

Stop thinking based on media hype and come to your sense. China is not a threat to you if you don't provoke them. Simple.

You dont get it, we are not stupid enought to provoke the Chinese they are the ones showing agression towards us........ As I said before read up on India China issues, they are Pakistan's best friend for a reason (INDIA) same way they are building that naval port in Pakistan which will help them stabalise their navy with minimal time..

[KingKhanWC]

They already defeated us in a war before, they are not building naval ports in Pakistan because they LOVE YOU or in Bangladesh & Sri Lanka. They are encircling India they want to suffocate us, there is no room for 2 lions in the same jungle.. I suggest you read up on India's concerns on China........

:)))

[Romali_rotti]

Please save your blessings for your MooMoo land countrymen; they need it more than I.

:)

Oh trust me your lot need it more especially when you have :zardari running the show lol.... And yes my Blessings will always be with you

[Namak_Halaal]

Oh trust me your lot need it more especially when you have :zardari running the show lol.... And yes my Blessings will always be with you

KLF - Justified Ancients Of Moo Moo.

[Namak_Halaal]

:)))

I cracked up in tears myself. Herbivores considered lions!? It’s beyond hilarious.

[Romali_rotti]

KLF - Justified Ancients Of Moo Moo.

As always my blessings and well wishes for you...

[Stylish Executive]

You dont get it, we are not stupid enought to provoke the Chinese they are the ones showing agression towards us........ As I said before read up on India China issues, they are Pakistan's best friend for a reason (INDIA) same way they are building that naval port in Pakistan which will help them stabalise their navy with minimal time..

I follow the news regularly. I did not notice any aggressive statement from any Chinese spokesperson regarding India. Only indian news that "China may be the real threat, not Pakistan".

[Romali_rotti]

I follow the news regularly. I did not notice any aggressive statement from any Chinese spokesperson regarding India. Only indian news that "China may be the real threat, not Pakistan".

Its pretty obvious the news hasnt informed you of much, read up on Indo/China issues .........

[USaqaf]

The fact on the ground is Pakistan cannot defeat India without strategic help from China or Bangladesh or possibly even Sri Lanka.
To defeat (completely) India a 2 frontal war is critical, as they can just keep retreating until the Pak Army is deep enough to outflank them and destroy them. That being said there is a high chance China will aid Pakistan but with American and Russian opposition they may do so under the radar. India on the other hand can thrust and bifurcate Pakistan into 2 and then try to gobble southward and northward. By this time im sure a nuke would have been dropped in their territory.
In terms of training and technology dont kid yourselves both armies are pretty even.The best of Pakistan are as good as the best from India. Theres far more corruption at the higher level in India that in Pakistan especially in the military and defence. Our generals are more honest than theirs.

[Namak_Halaal]

RR's responses remind of a broken record I own (Routemaster 1)

I wonder if the following piece of news ever reached RR.

http://makesplash.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/aq-khan.jpg

Cue RR.....

[Namak_Halaal]

The fact on the ground is Pakistan cannot defeat India without strategic help from China or Bangladesh or possibly even Sri Lanka.
.

Add Iran to the list.

http://thepolicytensor.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/aipac-iran-map.jpg?w=500&h=365

[Garuda]

:facepalm:

The history of WW2 falsifies every word you post above - check the history.

It's painful just to read this stuff.
For you history doesn't exists my friend. Its what you believe.

So no point.

[Namak_Halaal]

For you history doesn't exists my friend. Its what you believe.

So no point.

Pants, that's right, you come from the same school of thought that believes 2+2 doesn't equal 4.

My bad, what was I thinking!

[Garuda]

Pants, that's right, you come from the same school of thought that believes 2+2 doesn't equal 4.

My bad, what was I thinking!

Exactly !!!

[suhaib]

The fact on the ground is Pakistan cannot defeat India without strategic help from China or Bangladesh or possibly even Sri Lanka.
To defeat (completely) India a 2 frontal war is critical, as they can just keep retreating until the Pak Army is deep enough to outflank them and destroy them. That being said there is a high chance China will aid Pakistan but with American and Russian opposition they may do so under the radar. India on the other hand can thrust and bifurcate Pakistan into 2 and then try to gobble southward and northward. By this time im sure a nuke would have been dropped in their territory.
In terms of training and technology dont kid yourselves both armies are pretty even.The best of Pakistan are as good as the best from India. Theres far more corruption at the higher level in India that in Pakistan especially in the military and defence. Our generals are more honest than theirs.

we have defeated indian many times already without any strategic help before, they were absolutely crushed in 1948,1965,1999, wat support did we have then. we even had inferior weapons to them, infact they were supported by israel still they got crushed.

secondly times have changed, russia will never support india to destablize pakistan, they have made a strategic alliance with china in the SCO and if pakistan join, which it will russia will be on our sides, this is not the soviet union, there enemies are now america and dont have wet dreams of conquering muslim lands.

as far as war is concerncered, there is more to it then state of the art weapons, otherwise muslims would be long gone. The fact is that if there is a war between india and pakistan it wouldnt be indian army vs pakistan army, it would be indian army vs the whole pakistan population, we have atleast 50 million people who will volunteer to go into india, what can they do then?
if we spread out our people in india there army cant do anything and then we have support from the sikhs, naxalites, dalits and others who hate india.

[Nics]

we have defeated indian many times already without any strategic help before, they were absolutely crushed in 1948,1965,1999, wat support did we have then. we even had inferior weapons to them, infact they were supported by israel still they got crushed.

secondly times have changed, russia will never support india to destablize pakistan, they have made a strategic alliance with china in the SCO and if pakistan join, which it will russia will be on our sides, this is not the soviet union, there enemies are now america and dont have wet dreams of conquering muslim lands.

as far as war is concerncered, there is more to it then state of the art weapons, otherwise muslims would be long gone. The fact is that if there is a war between india and pakistan it wouldnt be indian army vs pakistan army, it would be indian army vs the whole pakistan population, we have atleast 50 million people who will volunteer to go into india, what can they do then?
if we spread out our people in india there army cant do anything and then we have support from the sikhs, naxalites, dalits and others who hate india.

bahahahahahahaha:))):))):)))

Its so easy to beat and crush India, are you listening Mr Chaudhry
Ahmad Mukhtar.

[AlizeeFan]

if we spread out our people in india there army cant do anything and then we have support from the sikhs, naxalites, dalits and others who hate india.

wow! Even though I have lived here only whole life, but I never knew that. Congrats!

[Sachin85]

we have defeated indian many times already without any strategic help before, they were absolutely crushed in 1948,1965,1999, wat support did we have then. we even had inferior weapons to them, infact they were supported by israel still they got crushed.

secondly times have changed, russia will never support india to destablize pakistan, they have made a strategic alliance with china in the SCO and if pakistan join, which it will russia will be on our sides, this is not the soviet union, there enemies are now america and dont have wet dreams of conquering muslim lands.

as far as war is concerncered, there is more to it then state of the art weapons, otherwise muslims would be long gone. The fact is that if there is a war between india and pakistan it wouldnt be indian army vs pakistan army, it would be indian army vs the whole pakistan population, we have atleast 50 million people who will volunteer to go into india, what can they do then?
if we spread out our people in india there army cant do anything and then we have support from the sikhs, naxalites, dalits and others who hate india.

Why didn't these 50 million join the previous wars??
Why didn't these 50 million come to rescue 90,000 POWs and stop the Pakistani army of lions from surrendering like cowards??

You are just hilarious. Can't wait for your next post. Just hilarious!!

[Sachin85]

Yes, India did. 1948, 1965 was initiated by India, as well as 1971 towards the end.

After "Islamic Bomb", India so far didn't try any misadventure. Of course, they were threatening in 2008, but backed off as soon as Pakistan army took positions near the border (again, in the fear of "Islamic bomb").

"Islamic bomb" has indeed put India back in place.



India is already training arming TTP terrorists and waging a 4th Generation war on Pakistan. Don't tell me they aren't because there are photos of Indian army rifle, advanced navigation equipment recovered from TTP terrorists.

As far as China is concerned, they didn't do anything to you. India-china trade ties are strong. Why are you being paranoid about China?

1948: The objective of the tribal invasion was to capture control of the Kashmir valley including its principal city, Srinagar, the summer capital of the state (Jammu being the winter capital). The entire undertaking was codenamed Operation Gulmarg. Maj Gen Akbar Khan of the Pakistan Army, codename "Jebel Tariq", was made the commander.[4]:18

1965: On August 5, 1965 between 26,000 and 33,000 Pakistani soldiers crossed the Line of Control dressed as Kashmiri locals headed for various areas within Kashmir. Indian forces, tipped off by the local populace, crossed the cease fire line on August 15

1971: Look up operation searchlight. If you think India started the 1971 war then you need professional help.

look up the sources on wikipedia. They are several credible sources.

Please post one credible source for your asinine claims about India supporting TTP or other terrorists in Pakistan. Just same crap again and again with no evidence to back it up.

The people who hold the "islamic" bomb have killed the most Muslims. How ironic.

[Stylish Executive]

1948: The objective of the tribal invasion was to capture control of the Kashmir valley including its principal city, Srinagar, the summer capital of the state (Jammu being the winter capital). The entire undertaking was codenamed Operation Gulmarg. Maj Gen Akbar Khan of the Pakistan Army, codename "Jebel Tariq", was made the commander.[4]:18

1965: On August 5, 1965 between 26,000 and 33,000 Pakistani soldiers crossed the Line of Control dressed as Kashmiri locals headed for various areas within Kashmir. Indian forces, tipped off by the local populace, crossed the cease fire line on August 15

1971: Look up operation searchlight. If you think India started the 1971 war then you need professional help.

look up the sources on wikipedia. They are several credible sources.

Please post one credible source for your asinine claims about India supporting TTP or other terrorists in Pakistan. Just same crap again and again with no evidence to back it up.

The people who hold the "islamic" bomb have killed the most Muslims. How ironic.

Wikipedia.

Look at the bottom of each wikipedia pages. The sources of the info are from books and articles written by Hindu Indian writers. Of course they will say "Pakistan attacked us" and "We crushed Pakistan".

[Bengaluru]

No, check history.

1971, India did towards end ??? how can one start a war towards end? The war has already been started.

:facepalm:

The history of WW2 falsifies every word you post above - check the history.

It's painful just to read this stuff.

Would you kindly elaborate how the history of WW2 falsify a simple statement "An already ongoing war cannot be 'started' again at the end"?

[Sachin85]

Wikipedia.

Look at the bottom of each wikipedia pages. The sources of the info are from books and articles written by Hindu Indian writers. Of course they will say "Pakistan attacked us" and "We crushed Pakistan".

Hahahahah, as usual. Did you look at the sources? yes or no?

There are several international newspapers and news agencies as well as books written by Pakistani army men. What a pathetic excuse!!
Just pathetic!!

[NJamal]

They already defeated us in a war before, they are not building naval ports in Pakistan because they LOVE YOU or in Bangladesh & Sri Lanka. They are encircling India they want to suffocate us, there is no room for 2 lions in the same jungle.. I suggest you read up on India's concerns on China........

Lions, now you are joking RR.

[Stylish Executive]

Hahahahah, as usual. Did you look at the sources? yes or no?

There are several international newspapers and news agencies as well as books written by Pakistani army men. What a pathetic excuse!!
Just pathetic!!

Blind person spitting rubbish. :)

Anyway, get back to the topic.

[Sachin85]

Would you kindly elaborate how the history of WW2 falsify a simple statement "An already ongoing war cannot be 'started' again at the end"?

Forget it. He is yet to elaborate on quite a few things

BJPs plan to eradicate muslims from UP

How religion is very important in geo politics eventhough Muslim pakistanis raped and murdered hundreds of thousands of Muslim bangladeshis.

How and why Pakistan is a kingmaker in global politics but can't stop US from bombing their citizens on a daily basis.

Why the muslims worldwide are going to let Pakistan lead them when Pakistan has killed the most muslims?

Why pakistan has terrible relations with other muslim nations

etc etc.

He just talks trash and runs away.

[NJamal]

Forget it. He is yet to elaborate on quite a few things

BJPs plan to eradicate muslims from UP

How religion is very important in geo politics eventhough Muslim pakistanis raped and murdered hundreds of thousands of Muslim bangladeshis.

How and why Pakistan is a kingmaker in global politics but can't stop US from bombing their citizens on a daily basis.

Why the muslims worldwide are going to let Pakistan lead them when Pakistan has killed the most muslims?

Why pakistan has terrible relations with other muslim nations

etc etc.

He just talks trash and runs away.

Don't make false allegations you genius.

[Sachin85]

Blind person spitting rubbish. :)

Anyway, get back to the topic.

Don't run away now!! Go look at the sources!! What a shameless way to try and run away!

Post some sources for your outlandish claims atleast!!

Who do you think you are going to fool with this nonsense??

[Sachin85]

Don't make false allegations you genius.

Look it up. Mr Namak_halal claimed all of the above and ran away when asked for evidence. Still no clue how he and he alone knows about BJPs secret plan to eradicate Muslims from UP.

[suhaib]

how useless is it arguing with indians, i don't think you will find more delusional fools anywhere on the planet. You can give them all the proofs in the world even written by indians themselves that expose them yet they come out with the worse one line rants invented :)))

[Stylish Executive]

Forget it. He is yet to elaborate on quite a few things

BJPs plan to eradicate muslims from UP

How religion is very important in geo politics eventhough Muslim pakistanis raped and murdered hundreds of thousands of Muslim bangladeshis.

How and why Pakistan is a kingmaker in global politics but can't stop US from bombing their citizens on a daily basis.

Why the muslims worldwide are going to let Pakistan lead them when Pakistan has killed the most muslims?

Why pakistan has terrible relations with other muslim nations

etc etc.

He just talks trash and runs away.

Please do not prove your illiteracy by saying what you are saying above. State assertions with authentic proofs.

It is clearly evident from your post that you are scared of Pakistan leading the Muslim ummah. :) Otherwise, being a Hindu Indian, why would you burn over the speculation that Pakistan will lead the Muslim ummah? What pr*cks you, dear? :)

Don't be scared, boy. Pakistan is not a fan of your Hindutva ideology.

[suhaib]

Don't run away now!! Go look at the sources!! What a shameless way to try and run away!

Post some sources for your outlandish claims atleast!!

Who do you think you are going to fool with this nonsense??

sources? an indian talking about sources :))) and running away :)))

dont get yourself embarrased like sk2 did yestoday, is that all you indians can do in debates, give one line rant and lies, run away and then ask others for sources and proofs :)))

[Sachin85]

how useless is it arguing with indians, i don't think you will find more delusional fools anywhere on the planet. You can give them all the proofs in the world even written by indians themselves that expose them yet they come out with the worse one line rants invented :)))

Hahahha, again and again. Running away like a coward. Where were your 50 million volunteers in 1971?? Please tell me. I really want to know.

[suhaib]

wow! Even though I have lived here only whole life, but I never knew that. Congrats!

its amazing how ignorant and deluded indians can be aint it.

well atleast you have proved it.

[Sachin85]

Please do not prove your illiteracy by saying what you are saying above. State assertions with authentic proofs.

It is clearly evident from your post that you are scared of Pakistan leading the Muslim ummah. :) Otherwise, being a Hindu Indian, why would you burn over the speculation that Pakistan will lead the Muslim ummah? What pr*cks you, dear? :)

Don't be scared, boy. Pakistan is not a fan of your Hindutva ideology.

Please look up operation searchlight for proof on the raping and killing of Muslims in Bangladesh.

Drone attacks killing pakistani civilians regularly. What proof do you want for that?? Why hasn't the kingmaker been able to stop these attacks??

Does pakistan have good relations with Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Iran etc etc?

You are a joke!

[suhaib]

Hahahha, again and again. Running away like a coward. Where were your 50 million volunteers in 1971?? Please tell me. I really want to know.

running away? isnt that what you indians do in every debate, just look past the pages not a single indian could come up with any evidence or proof and had to even make a laught out of themselves by bashing your own indians and generals who expose you :)))

one line rants and lies wouldnt prove anything, no wonder you lie and than run away.

[Sachin85]

running away? isnt that what you indians do in every debate, just look past the pages not a single indian could come up with any evidence or proof and had to even make a laught out of themselves by bashing your own indians and generals who expose you :)))

one line rants and lies wouldnt prove anything, no wonder you lie and than run away.

You said 50 million pakistanis will volunteer to fight India in the case of a war.

I asked you why the 50 million did not volunteer for the earlier wars, especially one in which your army had to surrender.

Then you replied with some irrelevant trash! Please answer my question or have the decency to admit that you were wrong. Just answer the question, it will be more fun to read!

[jheenga]

Sure it is. India snapping up F35 which are useless against China (educate yourself on the range and specs), in the same way as AGNI series.

The rest of your post is gibberish emotive rhetoric.

Islamic Bomb has India in it's place. :)

Silly is as silly says . I-BOMB :sami:moyo:asif:amir

so threatening & wake-up . f35 was rejected intelligence_halal . :malik

[suhaib]

You said 50 million pakistanis will volunteer to fight India in the case of a war.

I asked you why the 50 million did not volunteer for the earlier wars, especially one in which your army had to surrender.

Then you replied with some irrelevant trash! Please answer my question or have the decency to admit that you were wrong. Just answer the question, it will be more fun to read!

if you could read english i said 50 million would fight now, there are reasons why it didnt happen before, firstly due to indians terroism inside pakistan, the people are more angry, poverty is at an all time time, everyone in the tribal and northern areas have been fighting for the last few years and after mumbai drama they all volenteered to fight india, which didnt happen before, there are many issues and reasons why the people will fight, the case would be like 1948 where we didnt have an army and our mujahideens took your army apart.

now instead of coming out with a one line rant and sprouting childish rubbish try and post something relevant.

[jheenga]

if you could read english i said 50 million would fight now, there are reasons why it didnt happen before, firstly due to indians terroism inside pakistan, the people are more angry, poverty is at an all time time, everyone in the tribal and northern areas have been fighting for the last few years and after mumbai drama they all volenteered to fight india, which didnt happen before, there are many issues and reasons why the people will fight, the case would be like 1948 where we didnt have an army and our mujahideens took your army apart.

now instead of coming out with a one line rant and sprouting childish rubbish try and post something relevant.

Mah dear deluded Suehaib . last pertinent score is 4-0 . try again at your own cost & consequences . posting rubbish on net aint winning you anything : not even east pakistan . :asif

[Bengaluru]

if you could read english i said 50 million would fight now, there are reasons why it didnt happen before, firstly due to indians terroism inside pakistan, the people are more angry, poverty is at an all time time, everyone in the tribal and northern areas have been fighting for the last few years and after mumbai drama they all volenteered to fight india, which didnt happen before, there are many issues and reasons why the people will fight, the case would be like 1948 where we didnt have an army and our mujahideens took your army apart.

now instead of coming out with a one line rant and sprouting childish rubbish try and post something relevant.

Wait a minute, why will 50 million Pakistanis fight against India for what happened in Mumbai?!

[suhaib]

Mah dear deluded Suehaib . last pertinent score is 4-0 . try again at your own cost & consequences . posting rubbish on net aint winning you anything : not even east pakistan . :asif

you dont win with one liner rants and laughable lies, ofcourse to you guys evidence and proof is rubbish, even by your own media :)))

you just proved how deluded you are by backing the one line ranters and liers :))) but ofcourse thats the problem with your nation.

[suhaib]

Wait a minute, why will 50 million Pakistanis fight against India for what happened in Mumbai?!

learn to read, they were going to fight the war when india was planning to attack pakistan after the mumbai drama, not for mumbai.

[s2k]

The usual suspects have again taken the debate down the drain

1.India lost to Pakistan in 1965.Well India held 750sqkm of Pakistani territory and PAkistan 250 sqkm of Indian territory.we were 30km from Lahore when ceasefire was called.yet we lost.

2.1948:Pakistani Army wanted to capture Srinagar and Jammu but was pushed back to the North when cease fire was called.

Russia India's lifelong friend and biggest defense supplier will join Pakistan againist India in a war.LOL,Thats a big LOL.They are each others biggest defence partners.Infact Russian leader recently changed Russia's no first use policy as it was being threatened by China.Infact China and Russia have fought wars.
its with India that Russia is building 5th gen planes,hypersonic missiles and nuclear Subs.

Iran:India is Iran's 2nd biggest trade partner.Its building roads,ports in Iran.It is the 2nd biggest investor in Iranian oil fields.India has much better relations with Shia Iran than Sunni Pakistan has with it.

But the delusional ones will sit on their assumptions of united ummah and the whole world going againist India Israel and USA.

[jheenga]

you dont win with one liner rants and laughable lies, ofcourse to you guys evidence and proof is rubbish, even by your own media :)))

you just proved how deluded you are by backing the one line ranters and liers :))) but ofcourse thats the problem with your nation.

Just saying 1 thing : aao . dikhao dum he touh . posting on net aint getting you anything . :moyo

[Bengaluru]

if you could read english i said 50 million would fight now, there are reasons why it didnt happen before, firstly due to indians terroism inside pakistan, the people are more angry, poverty is at an all time time, everyone in the tribal and northern areas have been fighting for the last few years and after mumbai drama they all volenteered to fight india, which didnt happen before, there are many issues and reasons why the people will fight, the case would be like 1948 where we didnt have an army and our mujahideens took your army apart.

now instead of coming out with a one line rant and sprouting childish rubbish try and post something relevant.

learn to read, they were going to fight the war when india was planning to attack pakistan after the mumbai drama, not for mumbai.

Thank you for contradicting yourself.

Also, you learn to read first. I said against India. Not for Mumbai.

[suhaib]

Thank you for contradicting yourself.

Also, you learn to read first. I said against India. Not for Mumbai.

please go and learn english, there is a different between saying tribal people and saying 50 million people,

not only are indians deluded on wars but they have massive comprehension problems is well :))

[jheenga]

please go and learn english, there is a different between saying tribal people and saying 50 million people,

not only are indians deluded on wars but they have massive comprehension problems is well :))

Ok you are da best losers . happy :sami

[suhaib]

The usual suspects have again taken the debate down the drain

1.India lost to Pakistan in 1965.Well India held 750sqkm of Pakistani territory and PAkistan 250 sqkm of Indian territory.we were 30km from Lahore when ceasefire was called.yet we lost.

2.1948:Pakistani Army wanted to capture Srinagar and Jammu but was pushed back to the North when cease fire was called.

Russia India's lifelong friend and biggest defense supplier will join Pakistan againist India in a war.LOL,Thats a big LOL.They are each others biggest defence partners.Infact Russian leader recently changed Russia's no first use policy as it was being threatened by China.Infact China and Russia have fought wars.
its with India that Russia is building 5th gen planes,hypersonic missiles and nuclear Subs.

Iran:India is Iran's 2nd biggest trade partner.Its building roads,ports in Iran.It is the 2nd biggest investor in Iranian oil fields.India has much better relations with Shia Iran than Sunni Pakistan has with it.

But the delusional ones will sit on their assumptions of united ummah and the whole world going againist India Israel and USA.

so you came back after the whipping yestoday :)))

are you gona continue giving rants, lies or are you ever gona come up with sources to back your rubbish up.

your rants dont prove anything, 1965, 48 and 1999 were huge crushing defeats for india, keep deluded if you want to.

as for russia she has more problems with america, it will destory relations with india soon for its alliance in the SCO block,

and as for iran, ahmedijad has just released a statement saying india has joined usa and is spreading terroism in pakistan, you must be living in dreamworld if you think iran is gona be on your side because of a few road projects but then you are a delusional tool.

[the Great Khan]

Agree with all except for the highlighted bit, the days when Pakistan mainly revolved around India's plans are long gone. It is all about China now.......


emphasis on the word have been up untill today..the majority of your airforce is on the western border, your strike formationsalso are pakistan centric..ten excercises in 6 years is honing your military doctrine towards the dismemberment of pakistan..thats just a fact..

as for the rest of the fasaad on here , id rather not get into it!!

[Bengaluru]

please go and learn english, there is a different between saying tribal people and saying 50 million people,

not only are indians deluded on wars but they have massive comprehension problems is well :))

Above quoted sentence marked in red corrected as follows:

1) P in please must be uppercase.
2) It is is not different, it is difference.
3) Comma used instead of a full stop.
4) N for not must be uppercase.
5) Not only must be followed by but also (Parallelism)
6) It is not is well. It is as well.

Your two paragraphs had 6 mistakes so please don't comment about my lack of English knowledge.

Besides, are tribal people not people according to you?

[jheenga]

so you came back after the whipping yestoday :)))

are you gona continue giving rants, lies or are you ever gona come up with sources to back your rubbish up.

your rants dont prove anything, 1965, 48 and 1999 were huge crushing defeats for india, keep deluded if you want to.

as for russia she has more problems with america, it will destory relations with india soon for its alliance in the SCO block,

and as for iran, ahmedijad has just released a statement saying india has joined usa and is spreading terroism in pakistan, you must be living in dreamworld if you think iran is gona be on your side because of a few road projects but then you are a delusional tool.

Oh yes we lost everything suehaib . lol . kabi apney ostrich wale mode se bahar to aao victorious padosi :amir:asif:sami

[suhaib]

Above quoted sentence marked in red corrected as follows:

1) P in please must be uppercase.
2) It is is not different, it is difference.
3) Comma used instead of a full stop.
4) N for not must be uppercase.
5) Not only must be followed by but also (Parallelism)
6) It is not is well. It is as well.

Your two paragraph sentence has 6 mistakes so please don't comment about my lack of English knowledge.

Besides, are tribal people not people according to you?

clearly im not writting an essay here, little spelling mistakes and capital letters are normal on internet forums, but how stupid must one be to not know the difference between saying 50 million + people will fight india in a war and saying tribal people said we will fight indian after mumbai drama, if you dont understand that and think thats contradiction you obviously need english lessons you cant even understand basic english yet talk about capital letters :)))

as for tribal people no one said there not people, again you cant read english or are totaly deluded like other indians.

[suhaib]

Oh yes we lost everything suehaib . lol . kabi apney ostrich wale mode se bahar to aao victorious padosi :amir:asif:sami

have you ever tried posting anything other than a one line rant,

[jheenga]

have you ever tried posting anything other than a one line rant,

ok . same thing in two lines only at your request .
You won everything my victorious ostrich neighbour but den ,why are you so immodest in victory ? :afridi

[s2k]

so you came back after the whipping yestoday :)))

are you gona continue giving rants, lies or are you ever gona come up with sources to back your rubbish up.

your rants dont prove anything, 1965, 48 and 1999 were huge crushing defeats for india, keep deluded if you want to.

as for russia she has more problems with america, it will destory relations with india soon for its alliance in the SCO block,

and as for iran, ahmedijad has just released a statement saying india has joined usa and is spreading terroism in pakistan, you must be living in dreamworld if you think iran is gona be on your side because of a few road projects but then you are a delusional tool.

Seems your delusions continue

You still havent been able to prove how 1948 1965 or 1999 wre defeat for India?except your smilies and rants.

Please provide the source of your above statement in which you mentioned Ahmednijad.

[Bengaluru]

clearly im not writting an essay here, little spelling mistakes and capital letters are normal on internet forums, but how stupid must one be to not know the difference between saying 50 million + people will fight india in a war and saying tribal said we will fight indian after mumbai drama, if you dont understand that and think thats contradiction you obviously need english lessons you cant even understand basic english yet talk about capital letters :)))

as for tribal people no one said there not people, again you cant read english or are totaly deluded like other indians.


Ah! I get it now. I couldn't comprehend what you were saying all along because it actually does not make any sense! Stop embarrassing yourself by posting further!

[suhaib]

Ah! I get it now. I couldn't comprehend what you were saying all along because it actually does not make any sense! Stop embarrassing yourself by posting further!

you are taking delusion to another level. :))) not only do you not make any sense but cant even read.

funny how your trying to divert the attention of the subject away from your war loses :)))

[suhaib]

Seems your delusions continue

You still havent been able to prove how 1948 1965 or 1999 wre defeat for India?except your smilies and rants.

Please provide the source of your above statement in which you mentioned Ahmednijad.

delusions are only what you good at, you still seem to be suffering from the bashing yesterday. :)))

you still havnt provided a single source on your lies and one liner rants yet come up with more and more lies and one line rants :)))
atleast try and prove one lie instead of coming up with 100 more.

[s2k]

Regarding SCO keep reading this post

As the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), a grouping involving Eurasian countries, begins its 10th annual summit in Tashkent, Russian ambassador Alexander M. Kadakin says India "has a right to be the permanent member" of the regional intergovernmental grouping but Pakistan does not.

"Our (Russian) position has all along been that we want India as a full-fledged member of the SCO," Kadakin told IANS in an interview a day ahead of the two-day SCO summit beginning Thursday.

The Tashkent summit is likely to clear the rules for expanding the grouping formed in Shanghai June 15, 2001,which has Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan as its

members.

The Russian envoy said the criteria, as of now, "has not been worked out. But we believe India meets all the requirements to be the member."

Minister of External Affairs S.M. Krishna will represent India at the Tashkent summit. India, Pakistan, Iran and Mongolia currently have observer status at the SCO. But in recent times, New Delhi has shown interest in joining the SCO.

Asked if Pakistan's membership request would also be considered alongside India, the Russian envoy said the two countries could

not be compared for the purpose.

"India and Pakistan are different in this regard. There is a certain limited criteria for the membership. If you ask me

about India, I would say it falls in the 'yes' category," said Kadakin.

He said he was not sure of the criteria for the permanent membership to the bloc: "Let them (the bloc members) sit

and work it out. As and when India's membership issue comes up, we will welcome India into the bloc."

The foreign ministers of the SCO countries met last week and finalised procedures for admitting new members. The draft is likely to be adopted in the two-day summit.

India warmed up to the grouping last year when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh attended the summit in Russia on an

invitation.

Anti-terrorism being an important focus of the SCO, India says its participation in the grouping would enable it to counter the rise of extremist groups by cooperating with like-minded countries in the Central Asian region.

The SCO has a Regional Counter Terrorism Center in Tashkent and India is also keen that Afghanistan too joins the

bloc.

Kadakin said situation in Afghanistan will be "the focus" of the Tashkent summit. He said the grouping was keen to have

a more stable Afghanistan, which is important to regional security.


This is what the Russians had to say about SCO and India's status in it.Russia and India are each others biggest defence partners and are treaty bound to even militarily help each other in case of a war,if the other country asks for help.This is why Russia is developing theri next gen weapons with India.



With its first base in Central Asia at Ayni, Tajikistan, ready to begin operations soon, India's power projection into the region is poised for a leap forward.

Refurbishment of the Ayni base, which is about 10 kilometers northeast of the Tajik capital Dushanbe, has reportedly been completed, and India's Chiefs of Staff Committee has given its go-ahead. The Defense Ministry is now awaiting the green signal from the Cabinet Committee on Security to begin operations. India has become the fourth country - after Russia, the United States



and Germany - to have a base in Central Asia.

Ayni was used by the Soviets in the 1980s to support their military operations in Afghanistan. After the Soviet pullout, the base fell into disuse and was in a dilapidated condition right through the 1990s.

Then in 2002, India undertook to refurbish the base at a cost of about US$10 million. But reports indicated that India's role will not be confined just to renovating it. India had reached an agreement with the Tajiks to set up a base there. Officially, however, India and Tajikistan have maintained that India's role was limited to renovating it.

The Ayni base will apparently be under the command and control of India, Tajikistan and Russia by rotation. The base will be jointly maintained by the Indians and the Russians. It is believed that New Delhi agreed to India-Russia joint maintenance under pressure from Moscow.

The economic factor too would have weighed in favor of the decision on joint maintenance. Besides, there were logistical considerations as well. With India's access by land or air to Tajikistan depending on the whims of Pakistan, India would have realized that it would have to look to the Russians for logistical support anyway.

A base will take India's close ties with Tajikistan to a new level. The two countries were on the same side in the Afghan civil war in the 1990s; both opposed the Pakistan-backed Taliban regime in Afghanistan.

Tajikistan has been India's entry point for influence in Afghanistan and Central Asia. It was at Farkhor near Tajikistan's border with Afghanistan that India set up a hospital in the late 1990s to treat injured Northern Alliance fighters. India supplied the Northern Alliance with high-altitude military equipment and helped repair its attack helicopters.

Indian military advisers provided input on strategy. All this support for the Northern Alliance was quietly channeled through Tajikistan. It was on Tajik soil that India's relationship with the anti-Taliban alliance blossomed.

With the fall of the Taliban at the end of 2001, India moved swiftly not only to consolidate its influence in Kabul but also to ensure that its long-standing relationship with the Tajiks was taken to a higher level. Besides defense cooperation, the two countries are working closely to tackle terrorism, build infrastructure and so on.

Tajikistan is Central Asia's poorest country. Unlike the other former Soviet republics in the region, it does not have oil or natural gas. But it does have another asset that makes it attractive to such countries as India - its geographic location. Noted Indian strategic analyst Raja Mohan has observed that Tajikistan's location makes it "the fulcrum of regional geopolitics".

Tajikistan shares borders with China, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. Pakistan is only about 30km away. A narrow strip of Afghan territory separates Tajikistan from Pakistan's North West Frontier Province (NWFP) and the Northern Areas.

A base at Ayni allows India rapid response to any emerging threat from the volatile Afghanistan-Pakistan arc, including a terrorist hijacking such as that of Indian Airlines Flight IC814 in December 1999. It also gives New Delhi a limited but significant capability to inject special forces into a hostile theater as and when the situation demands.

And should the base at Ayni grow in the coming years, it would enhance India's options in the event of military confrontation with Pakistan. India would be able to strike Pakistan's rear from Tajik soil.

The base goes beyond India's concerns vis-a-vis Pakistan and Pakistan-backed religious extremism in the region. Ayni has to do with India's growing interests in Central Asia as well. India is eyeing Central Asia's vast oil and gas reserves as well as its hydropower to boost its energy security. Its growing interest in Central Asian energy is accompanied by increasing involvement in the region's security. Ayni also has to do with India's big-power ambitions.

While India is keen to back its ambitions with muscle, it appears to be opting for a low profile for its air base in the region. It was initially planning to deploy MiG-29 fighters there. It is now going to deploy only a squadron of Mi-17 V1 helicopters. While the reason for the downsizing is not clear, it is possible that the lowering of India's profile has to do with Chinese objections. China's ties with the Tajiks have been growing, and it is possible that Beijing would have leaned on Dushanbe to keep Indian presence at the base low-key.

Unlike China, India does not share borders with the Central Asian countries. That is a disadvantage. But it has a long-standing ally in Russia, and its relations with Central Asian countries have been warm.

However, the foreign policies of the Central Asian countries have been far from stable. "India, therefore, cannot count on Central Asia totally on key political and security issues," writes P Stobdan in an article "Central Asia and India's security" in Strategic Analyses:

Even in the case of Afghanistan, the positions of Central Asian states vacillated several times in the past. Even Uzbekistan, at one point, took a U-turn in support of dealing with the Taliban. Similarly, on several occasions, Kazakhstan too favored engaging the Taliban in a dialogue and even established a modus vivendi with the Afghan militia.

Turkmenistan's position always remained favorable to the Taliban. In the future too, though India's security interests may converge with those of the Central Asian states, the methods and nature of approaching those problems may differ.

In 2005, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which includes Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, China and Russia, issued a statement calling on the US-led coalition to agree to a deadline for ending the temporary use of bases and air space in member countries, saying the active military phase of the Afghan operation was coming to an end.

The demand for a US exit had its roots in Washington's alleged involvement in the wave of regime changes that swept through the former Soviet republics of Georgia, Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan, and the mass uprising in Uzbekistan.

Uzbekistan, which was Washington's closest ally in the initial stages of "war on terrorism" - it was the top recipient of US security assistance in Central Asia - was the most vociferous in its demand for a US exit from the bases in the region.

While India's presence in Central Asia cannot be compared to that of the US - not only is it small in comparison but Delhi does not meddle in the domestic politics in the countries there - it is clear that India is adopting a cautious approach. It does not want to ruffle feathers in the region. Hence the low-profile presence at Ayni.


http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav062606a.shtml

Seems India has a great rapport with another SCO country where it may soon operate an airbase.

[Namak_Halaal]

Amazing, two simple words - Islamic Bomb - cause so much grief to those who live in MooMoo land.

Got to admire the optimism though, fighter jets against China. What gutter tripe.

[jheenga]

lol . i love these guys taking out their non-performence specific frustration by spinning great tales . Would be nice to see dese guys shut their lappy & step out to a definitely more aware world & talk about their tremendous warring achievements .
I today read a remark by AZ saying that some people should not JUST post vidz of pakistani's doing foolish things because unfortunately,da world thinks thats da way pakistani society is & i just got this thought : if a neutral read dese ridiculous posts about I-BOMB & pakistani's ranting about their war achievements & their dreams of attacking India & behaving as if they are next hope [ no pun ] of islamic world with their current state being what it is , how would they react ?

[suhaib]

Regarding SCO keep reading this post




This is what the Russians had to say about SCO and India's status in it.Russia and India are each others biggest defence partners and are treaty bound to even militarily help each other in case of a war,if the other country asks for help.This is why Russia is developing theri next gen weapons with India.





http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav062606a.shtml

Seems India has a great rapport with another SCO country where it may soon operate an airbase.

if india is not going to be part of the sco then there rapport with russia will break down.

things are not the same as the past, soviet union were pakistans enemies which india used, today the scenario is quite different, if russia and us relations turn sour which they are than russias relations with india will break down as india is heavily supported by us and israel, and there war with china will further strain there ties with russia.

also pakistan has just started to develop its relations with russia and it was because of russia that the relations started building, they are eager to join us.