View Full Version : Pakistan 'tamed' Tendulkar?
KingKhanWC
5th July 2011, 22:46
Sachin Tendulkar is recognised by most as the greatest batsmen in the modern era but his test average against Pakistan is his lowest against all nations.
V Bangladesh 136.66
V Zimbabwe 76.50
V England 61.42
V Australia 60.59
V Sri Lanka 60.45
V West Indies 57.43
V New Zealand 49.41
V South Africa 42.46
V Pakistan 42.28
Here are his test scores against Pakistan
National Stadium, Karachi November 1989
Bowled Waqar 15
Iqbal Stadium, Faisalabad November 1989
Lbw Imran 59 off 172 balls
Second innings - run out 8
Gaddafi Stadium, Lahore December 1989
Bowled Abdul Qadir 41 off 90 balls
Jinnah Stadium, Sialkot December 1989
Lbw Wasim 35
Second innings c Nadeem Abbasi b Imran Khan 57 off 134
MA Chidambaram Stadium, Chepauk, Chennai January 1999
C Saleem Malik b Saqlain Mushtaq 0
2nd innings c Akmran b Saqalin Mushtaq 136 off 273 balls.
Feroz Shah Kotla, Delhi February 1999
Lbw Saqlain Mushtaq 6
2nd innings C Wasim b Mushtaq Ahmed 29 off 65
Eden Gardens, Calcutta February 1999
Bowled Shoaib Akhtar 0
2nd innings run out 9
Multan Cricket Stadium March, 1 April 2004
Not out 194 off 348
*note - Sehwag scored 309 off 375
Gaddafi Stadium, Lahore April 2004
Lbw b Umar Gul 2
Second innings Lbw b Mohammed Sami 8
Rawalpindi Cricket Stadium April 2004
C Kamran Akmal b Shoaib Akhtar 1
Punjab Cricket Association Stadium, Mohali, Chandigarh March 2005
C Asim Kamal b Rana Naved 94 off 202
Eden Gardens, Kolkata March 2005
C Kamran Akmal b Shahid Afridi 52 off 102
Second innings C Kamran Akmal b Abdul Razzaq 52 off 91
M Chinnaswamy Stadium, Bangalore March 2005
C Younis Khan b Shahid Afridi 41 off 71
Second innings c Asim Kamal b Shahid Afridi 16 off 98
Iqbal Stadium, Faisalabad January 2006
C Kamran Akmal b Shoaib Akhtar 14 off 33
National Stadium, Karachi January, 1 February 2006
Bowled Abdul Razzaq 23
Second innings Bowled Mohammed Asif 26 off 47
Feroz Shah Kotla, Delhi November 2007
Run out 1
Second innings Not out 56 off 110
Eden Gardens, Kolkat December 2007
B Kaneria 82 off 109
As you can see there have been a few decent scores but with a very low strike rate. His highest of 194 took 348 balls which isn't too bad unless you consider Sehwag in the same match scoring 100+ runs more while only facing 27 more balls more.
Sachin Tendulkar has a slightly better average against South Africa but as we know the conditions there are very different. The conditions in Pakistan are near identical to India so it couldn't have anything to do with this. One could argue the pressure of playing Pakistan is also higher but Sachin has played under pressure all of his career, he is expected to score regardless of the opposition.
Test cricket is the real deal imo but even in ODI cricket his average against Pakistan is the second lowest just beating his average against South Africa?
The question is why is Sachin's lowest average against Pakistan? Did Pakistan really tame the little master? :)
Sherlock
5th July 2011, 22:55
Still a hell of a average. What us Pakistani fans would do for only one of our players to have that average.
in_cutter
5th July 2011, 22:57
Pressure + quality of bowling
asifp
5th July 2011, 22:58
I would not call an average of 42 taming.
How many of our current test batsman average that much? Maybe Misbah, thats it.
So a tame tendulkar > any current Pakistani batsman
rubbish thread
cornered-tigers
5th July 2011, 23:00
he averaged about 37 when Ws and saqi were playi g, recently ge averaged better, same with Africa he was averaging 39,
Sachin Really didn't play a lot of test matches in Pakistan. However, its a decent analysis. I'm sure there is pressure to play in Pakistan and i'm also sure if he played more test matches in Pakistan he could have a higher average as well.
Goes to show the importance of playing on your home surfaces! Pakistan at home was really good, especially in the 2005 test series against England and the 2006 Series against India!
KingKhanWC
5th July 2011, 23:03
I would not call an average of 42 taming.
How many of our current test batsman average that much? Maybe Misbah, thats it.
So a tame tendulkar > any current Pakistani batsman
rubbish thread
I just posted facts, call them what you like.
His lowest average is against Pakistan, why?
Also 42 is a not a very good average these days. Just because Pakistan batting is weak doesn't mean it's a good average, this is a poor argument. It's like saying look at Imran Farhat's average etc
An average of around 50 has been the benchmark for great/top batsmen in recent years. Sachin has this against all other teams expect for South Africa and Pakistan, with Pakistan being his lowest.
akheR
5th July 2011, 23:11
Well, we love getting him out, sometime forgetting Sehwag. :gul
Though its clear that an average of 42 is not 'that great', even if it's compensated (for me at least) by his performances against Australia.
By the way, Younis Khan's average against India is of 88.06. :yk
And Misbah-ul-Haq's 116.00 :don ... but he didn't play a lot against them :misbah
KingKhanWC
5th July 2011, 23:43
Well, we love getting him out, sometime forgetting Sehwag. :gul
Though its clear that an average of 42 is not 'that great', even if it's compensated (for me at least) by his performances against Australia.
By the way, Younis Khan's average against India is of 88.06. :yk
And Misbah-ul-Haq's 116.00 :don ... but he didn't play a lot against them :misbah
Some players excel against certain teams and don't do as well against others.
Tendulkar hasn't really blown Pakistan away in any test match innings. His 136 in Chennai was probably the best when he nearly helped India chase down in the 4th innings. 2 hundreds in 18 matches doesn't show any danger to the opposition which is also the least against any nation.
Being the greatest batsmen of all time it's a good effort by Pakistan over years.
kingusama92
5th July 2011, 23:51
We have always had a great bowling lineup, it's acceptable for him to not do well against us.
Still, an average of 42 is nothing to scoff at.
Playing against the likes of Waqar, Wasim, Akhtar, Saqi isn't an easy task.
jeetu
6th July 2011, 00:12
I wouldn't call it taming since Tendulkar avg was over 50 in 3 series v/s pak.
KingKhanWC
6th July 2011, 00:34
In 2004 he made one big score his highest of 194 when Sewhag hit over 300 and then followed with scores of 2, 8, 1. Apart from one innings Pakistan had the better of him in the series.
In 2005 he made 3 half centuries which is consistent but Pakistan didn't allow him a hundred in the series. Maybe his best series.
In 2007 he made 1, 56 and 82. Consistent again but not dominating innings.
Overall decent knocks in these years but still ends up with his lowest average against Pakistan.
cricketfanfirst
6th July 2011, 00:37
Yes, by overall standards, you can say Sachin does not have an outstanding average against Pakistan, even if you take into account a very good Pakistani bowling attack. He just has respectable average against them, this could be due to two factors, he did not have the chance to play too many tests against them and also not played much during his peak period in 1990s. Also the average does look low, since his debut series itself accounts nearly 22% of his overall matches against Pakistan.
But, at the end of the day stats do not lie, and by stats, you can say he has a respectable average against Pakistan and not outstanding and that's about it.
Hey KKWC, in the number of balls column you made a mistake, you have taken into account the minutes played. For example, Sachin scored 193* in 348 balls but 493 mts, similarly the 136 was scored in 273 balls but 405 mts.
JibranAnsari
6th July 2011, 00:50
sachin can easily increase it to over 50 if pakistan play india next year. Gul , wahab , junain arent going to bother him. Ajmal against sachin would be great to watch.
cricketfanfirst
6th July 2011, 00:54
sachin can easily increase it to over 50 if pakistan play india next year. Gul , wahab , junain arent going to bother him. Ajmal against sachin would be great to watch.
Yes, that would be a teasing battle. Ajmal with all his tricks against Sachin would be a real delight for test match fans.
Lol at this thread being called a rubbish thread.
He's just showing you that by his usual excellent standards, he is below average against Pakistan.
I would wager that the average average of batsmen thesedays would be in the vicinity of 40 to 45. Although Sachin's career has spanned two decades now, so the average of a batsman has been steadily increasing since.
So it is not completely untoward to state what the thread does - is that relatively, Pakistan have bowled better to him than other nations. They have been able to control his strike rate, and hence 'tame' his naturally aggressive batsmanship.
Pretty decent thread imo.
freelance_cricketer
6th July 2011, 01:44
An average of 42 is bad ? :facepalm:
The 5 world cup games you have lost to us, :sachin was MOM in 3 of them.
And that has what to do with the thread?
Pathetic argument really. Bring everything back to World Cup losses. How about you look at overall win/loss ratio? Or does that give you too much of a fright? Can't sleep at night?
Nobody is saying his average of 42 is bad.
But the contention of the thread still remains true - against Pakistan, his career average of 56.94 drops a staggering 12 (over quite a long period so nobody can argue sample size error).
To anybody who reads that - this should be a fair contention.
Speak on that - not on WC MoM awards lol.
Cricketismylife
6th July 2011, 02:23
42 is good average considering the great bowling attack (Wasim, Waqar, akhtar) in the past.
If India be playing Pak lot more in the recent years it might have been better.
Riaz, gul are good but they are no Waqar....
Please dont bring invalid arguments like the "conspiracy" of BCCI to get rid of Asi, Amir etc.
Ashraful_Rox
6th July 2011, 02:24
If India plays Pakistan now, his average will go up by 10 or more, no :akhtar or wasim akram, he can score a double. An average of 42 is pretty good against a Pakistan attack.
Cricketismylife
6th July 2011, 02:26
sachin can easily increase it to over 50 if pakistan play india next year. Gul , wahab , junain arent going to bother him.
Exactly right. sorry, missed ur post before replying earlier....
Ajmal against sachin would be great to watch.
Look forward to it. should be a great contest.
Ajmal has a lot of variety and Sachin has always improved his game against every new bowler he has come up against. Once he puts his mind to a bowler he has always changed his shots etc to be on the offensive against them in the future.....
If India plays Pakistan now, his average will go up by 10 or more, no :akhtar or wasim akram, he can score a double. An average of 42 is pretty good against a Pakistan attack.
I doubt it.
It will take more than just a few games or series in the next year or two to boost his career average againt Pak, considering the number of matches he has played against us.
Even then, there is Saeed Ajmal - who had him in all sorts at Mohali.
Hope to see them go head to head again.
Watching Sachin vs good quality spin is second only to watching Lara vs good quality spin.
Ashraful_Rox
6th July 2011, 02:35
I doubt it.
It will take more than just a few games or series in the next year or two to boost his career average againt Pak, considering the number of matches he has played against us.
Even then, there is Saeed Ajmal - who had him in all sorts at Mohali.
Hope to see them go head to head again.
Watching Sachin vs good quality spin is second only to watching Lara vs good quality spin.
I almost forgot about Ajmal, the battle will be epic, but before if Saqlain didn't get him then there were the pacers Waqar, Wasim, :akhtar now it is only going to be Ajmal. Don't think Gul will be any threat. The battle in the 90s were Eipc brother.
cornered-tigers
6th July 2011, 02:38
I almost forgot about Ajmal, the battle will be epic, but before if Saqlain didn't get him then there were the pacers Waqar, Wasim, :akhtar now it is only going to be Ajmal. Don't think Gul will be any threat. The battle in the 90s were Eipc brother.
Amer would have been difficult for teenda, in first battle Amer got better of him, and Asif wud have been icing on the cake with big cuts on the ball!
Inzy's Aloo
6th July 2011, 02:42
And that has what to do with the thread?
Pathetic argument really. Bring everything back to World Cup losses. How about you look at overall win/loss ratio? Or does that give you too much of a fright? Can't sleep at night?
:)) funny how everything is based on the '5' world cup matches!
Sir_Afridi
6th July 2011, 02:43
Playing against arch rivals Pakistan is added pressure for any indian player. Sachin was never a great player in pressure situations as proven by his successive failures in WC finals. average of 42 is pretty poor for so called best batsman despite playing all those matches on flat tracks. Pakistan & SA always have the best pace attack and sachin have poor record against these teams proving he is not a good player of fast bowling.
Ironcat
6th July 2011, 02:52
What's the point of taming Tendulkar if you make a superman out of Munaf 'McGrath' Patel?
cricketfanfirst
6th July 2011, 02:53
Playing against arch rivals Pakistan is added pressure for any indian player. Sachin was never a great player in pressure situations as proven by his successive failures in WC finals. average of 42 is pretty poor for so called best batsman despite playing all those matches on flat tracks. Pakistan & SA always have the best pace attack and sachin have poor record against these teams proving he is not a good player of fast bowling.
Your argument against South Africa does not hold much value. He averages a respectable 46.44 in South Africa with over 1100 runs and 5 test centuries. I think this record against SA may be one of the best by any player, who played so many test matches in SA. Coming to pace, he scored a brilliant century at 19 on one of the fastest pitches in the world that is at the WACA in Australia. That innings wass rated by many Australian veteran commentators as one of the best knocks ever played in Australia. Also, scored a superb 111 and 169 in SA against Donald and company and recently against fiery pace of Styen and Morkel at the age of 38. We all have our favourite players which is nothing wrong but let's not diminish the greatness of such an outstanding batsman.
Let's not derail this thread, instead focus on what OP has said about Sachin's performance against Pakistan.
W63L35
6th July 2011, 02:53
I wouldn't call it taming since Tendulkar avg was over 50 in 3 series v/s pak.
Everything is relative..... average of 42.00 used to be a great average in 1970s but now Samraweera has an average of 54.08.
From 1989 to 2007 (when Sachin played vs Pakistan), these batsmen scored 1000+ runs vs Pakistan...sorted by average;
W63L35 brings the heat once again!
Nice dig-up.
Check out Sehwag and Ponting!
Sehwag averaging a lazy 91.14 at a strike rate of 80.20.
Lols delivered.
:)) funny how everything is based on the '5' world cup matches!
And his most recent MoM award was incorrectly awarded.
How do you give it to someone who scored a very very scratchy 80-odd (i forget what he scored exactly) - when a bowler took a 5-er on a flat-track.
Rahi80
6th July 2011, 03:56
I just posted facts, call them what you like.
His lowest average is against Pakistan, why?
Also 42 is a not a very good average these days. Just because Pakistan batting is weak doesn't mean it's a good average, this is a poor argument. It's like saying look at Imran Farhat's average etc
An average of around 50 has been the benchmark for great/top batsmen in recent years. Sachin has this against all other teams expect for South Africa and Pakistan, with Pakistan being his lowest.
Dude do you even know what you are posting.... firstly if his lowest average is 42 that means otherwise he's an exceptional player nad not that he is poor against pakistan. Secondly, your point about an average of 50 these days being the benchmark, i guess u'd realise hs average (n the innings u've posted) are from 1989 onwards so comparing it with the averages today doesnt make any sense....
just my 2 cents
aanand
6th July 2011, 03:57
And his most recent MoM award was incorrectly awarded.
How do you give it to someone who scored a very very scratchy 80-odd (i forget what he scored exactly) - when a bowler took a 5-er on a flat-track.
Pls come out of your world cup loss, its history now :))
Rahi80
6th July 2011, 04:03
And his most recent MoM award was incorrectly awarded.
How do you give it to someone who scored a very very scratchy 80-odd (i forget what he scored exactly) - when a bowler took a 5-er on a flat-track.
Yeah flat-track.... where 1 team had a stop-start inning and made 260 and the other one stuttered to 230.... nice flat track that mate...
:yk:yk
SameerP
6th July 2011, 04:19
Yeah flat-track.... where 1 team had a stop-start inning and made 260 and the other one stuttered to 230.... nice flat track that mate...
:yk:yk
If India didn't barely get 260 then I would say it was a flat track, Pakistan's batting is so great they could get all out for under 100 on the roads of Lord's
what ho
6th July 2011, 05:57
Well, it certainly does seem that he was 'tamed' by Pakistan in tests, though an average of 42 isn't too shabby! I had no idea that he scored a couple of 50s against Pakistan's superb attack as a 17 year old. Hats off!
Thanks for the list of innings, OP.
Pls come out of your world cup loss, its history now :))
I think you should be telling this to your Indian mates who repeatedly bring the WC matches into the equation for no apparent reason. Nobody had mentioned it before he/she came along.
And to the other dude saying it wasn't a flat-track - the fact both sets of batsmen didn't capitalise on it doesn't make it less so.
There were no demons in that pitch.
Wahab just bowled brilliantly.
CoolSERAZ
6th July 2011, 06:06
Well, it certainly does seem that he was 'tamed' by Pakistan in tests, though an average of 42 isn't too shabby! I had no idea that he scored a couple of 50s against Pakistan's superb attack as a 17 year old. Hats off!
Thanks for the list of innings, OP.
one 50 was with a nosebleed. waqar bouncer broke his nose and he started to bleed like mad. shirt went red and all.
he was to be taken off but seeing india's propensity to collapse in those days he refused medical attention kept batting and saved the game.
all this as a 16-year old.
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 06:25
That 52 off 91 balls in second innings at Eden Gardens (2005) was a good inning.
anshu1
6th July 2011, 06:36
And that has what to do with the thread?
Nobody is saying his average of 42 is bad.
But the contention of the thread still remains true - against Pakistan, his career average of 56.94 drops a staggering 12 (over quite a long period so nobody can argue sample size error).
To anybody who reads that - this should be a fair contention.
Please check the title of the thread " Tamed ". If you call an average of 42 being " Tamed " , it speaks volume of the respect of the bowlers you have or you have had.
Sachin hasnt played that many tests in Pakistan that you can start judging. His very first series was in Pakistan and at 16 he faced Imran , Wasim and Waqar, against whom a 26 yr old would pee in his pants...
That too, he got injured in his very first innings and still came back to bat and hit a 50 in the 2nd innings. Thats guts, against the kind of pace he had never faced ! His average will always be affected by the scores he made in his very first series, and if you guys want to pick on it , well you can go on. Doesnt change a thing !
driver26
6th July 2011, 06:40
I think you should be telling this to your Indian mates who repeatedly bring the WC matches into the equation for no apparent reason. Nobody had mentioned it before he/she came along.
And to the other dude saying it wasn't a flat-track - the fact both sets of batsmen didn't capitalise on it doesn't make it less so.
There were no demons in that pitch.
Wahab just bowled brilliantly.
So as someone already mentioned are you so naive to think that a pitch where the great Indian batting line up struggles to make even 260 is a flat one ?
Sachin scored 85 on a pitch where any of the other players hardly came closer to 50 runs , its his 85 runs which made the difference at end of the day , Riaz would have won the MOM had Pakistan won the match but such was the pitch that even our Indian phaasht bowlers bowled like champions , Indian bowlers can never defend such a low score on a flat pitch .
But anyways the bottomline is Tendulkar's brilliance always kicked out Pakistan from the world cup . Never forget 2003 and 2011 , Tendulkar won and Pakistan were at the receiving end .
what ho
6th July 2011, 06:57
Please check the title of the thread " Tamed ". If you call an average of 42 being " Tamed " , it speaks volume of the respect of the bowlers you have or you have had.
Sachin hasnt played that many tests in Pakistan that you can start judging. His very first series was in Pakistan and at 16 he faced Imran , Wasim and Waqar, against whom a 26 yr old would pee in his pants...
That too, he got injured in his very first innings and still came back to bat and hit a 50 in the 2nd innings. Thats guts, against the kind of pace he had never faced ! His average will always be affected by the scores he made in his very first series, and if you guys want to pick on it , well you can go on. Doesnt change a thing !
10 or so tests is a decent enough sized sample to judge his performances in Pakistan. Are you quite sure he was injured in his very first innings?
No_Username
6th July 2011, 07:11
A lowest average of 42 really shows how good he is, very.
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 07:28
10 or so tests is a decent enough sized sample to judge his performances in Pakistan. Are you quite sure he was injured in his very first innings?
Tendulkar played his first Test match against Pakistan in Karachi in 1989 aged just 16. He made just 15 runs, being bowled by Waqar Younis, who also made his debut in that match, but was noted for how he handled numerous blows to his body at the hands of the Pakistani pace attack.
Cricinfo has an article about 11 quirky debuts.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/columns/content/story/239768.html
The Pakistani pace attack at the turn of the 1990s was one of the most formidable of all time. It comprised the established pairing of Imran Khan and Wasim Akram and, when India arrived for their tour of the country in November 1989, Waqar Younis was straining at the leash to get stuck in as well. India's response was unconventional, to say the least. Into the fray they threw a baby-faced 16-year-old with one season of first-class cricket to his name, and hoped for the best. Sachin Tendulkar's debut produced just 15 runs but bucketfuls of bravery as he stayed in line and copped his blows, as mothers the length and breadth of the subcontinent winced at each delivery and prayed for an end to this cruelty.
An exhibition match was played in that series. 16 year Tendulkar hit Abdul Qadir for 3 sixes in an over.
Eighteen deliveries changed everything. In that time he made 53 (unbeaten), hitting Mushtaq Ahmed for two huge sixes, and then Abdul Qadir for 27 runs in a single over, with three sixes in a row. There was no wild slogging. When Qadir dropped one short as Tendulkar stepped out, the batsman had the arrogance to go through with his shot anyway. The bat made a lovely arc, and for all we know the ball is still travelling - no one could find it.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/399162.html
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5Z9KzQEpMZ0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
KFC_Zinger
6th July 2011, 07:32
Everything is relative..... average of 42.00 used to be a great average in 1970s but now Samraweera has an average of 54.08.
From 1989 to 2007 (when Sachin played vs Pakistan), these batsmen scored 1000+ runs vs Pakistan...sorted by average;
Whooshhhhhhh Does Sehwag avg > 90 at a strike rate of > 80 .....
What incredible stats......:14::14::14::14:
i think we can safely say Pakistan tamed Sachin and Sehwag tamed Pakistan
Amjid Javed
6th July 2011, 07:37
Yes, by overall standards, you can say Sachin does not have an outstanding average against Pakistan, even if you take into account a very good Pakistani bowling attack. He just has respectable average against them, this could be due to two factors, he did not have the chance to play too many tests against them and also not played much during his peak period in 1990s. Also the average does look low, since his debut series itself accounts nearly 22% of his overall matches against Pakistan.
But, at the end of the day stats do not lie, and by stats, you can say he has a respectable average against Pakistan and not outstanding and that's about it.
Hey KKWC, in the number of balls column you made a mistake, you have taken into account the minutes played. For example, Sachin scored 193* in 348 balls but 493 mts, similarly the 136 was scored in 273 balls but 405 mts.
The reason he didnt get much exposure during the 90s was India and BCCI cowardly refusal not to play Pakistan due to fear of getting one hell of a hammering. Yes it maybe presumptions but i recon if Pakistan played India regularly in tests in the 90s Sachins would have probably been averaging in the High 30s in terms off an average.
what ho
6th July 2011, 07:39
Nice post, Alizeefan. Very interesting.
By injury, I was referring to the much cited hit on the face one.
what ho
6th July 2011, 07:44
The reason he didnt get much exposure during the 90s was India and BCCI cowardly refusal not to play Pakistan due to fear of getting one hell of a hammering. Yes it maybe presumptions but i recon if Pakistan played India regularly in tests in the 90s Sachins would have probably been averaging in the High 30s in terms off an average.
Perhaps. But, given that in the 90s he was at his peak as a batsman, his recent rennaissance notwithstanding, it could have gone the other way too. The pity is the cricketworld was denied a classic match up.
Of course, another argument about his less than stellar statistics against Pakistan could be the fact that 2 of his tours there in the mid nougties coincided with his injury years.
All hypotheses, of course.....
Sometimes I do wish there were no politics in sports.
JibranAnsari
6th July 2011, 07:46
I almost forgot about Ajmal, the battle will be epic, but before if Saqlain didn't get him then there were the pacers Waqar, Wasim, :akhtar now it is only going to be Ajmal. Don't think Gul will be any threat. The battle in the 90s were Eipc brother.
saqlain eventually got him when he scored 136 with a doosra.
BCCI cowardly refusal not to play Pakistan due to fear of getting one hell of a hammering.
lol at ignorant souls. Always living in the past.
Why do you think then why BCCI isn't allowing current Indian team to face Pak in bilateral contests for more than 3 years now? Is it again due to fear of being hammered by almighty Pak team?
And FYI, it was PCB who refused to send its team to India first in '90s. BCCI simply followed suit.
driver26
6th July 2011, 07:49
The reason he didnt get much exposure during the 90s was India and BCCI cowardly refusal not to play Pakistan due to fear of getting one hell of a hammering. Yes it maybe presumptions but i recon if Pakistan played India regularly in tests in the 90s Sachins would have probably been averaging in the High 30s in terms off an average.
Tendulkar was by far the best Batsman in the 90s and played against bowlers of better ability and conditions throughout the world so make some sense before saying Tendulkar would have been averaging 30odd in the 90s against Pakistan.
Btw you can blame BCCI for not arranging series against Pakistan to avoid heavy defeats but then why are they still going on the same campaign even when Pakistan as Test team is just notch above Bangladesh and below West Indies? or You believe that your Alis , Chota Akmal , Ahmads , Gul , Shahhzad , Farhat , Rehman can give a huge phainty to current Indian team and hence BCCI are avoiding the tour .
cricketfanfirst
6th July 2011, 07:51
The reason he didnt get much exposure during the 90s was India and BCCI cowardly refusal not to play Pakistan due to fear of getting one hell of a hammering. Yes it maybe presumptions but i recon if Pakistan played India regularly in tests in the 90s Sachins would have probably been averaging in the High 30s in terms off an average.
Not sure about the BCCI and India's cowardly attitude but I guess there were political reasons for not playing Pakistan during that time, similar to the ones existing since 2008.
As you reckon that Sachin's average would have been in 30s in 1990s when he was at his best, the exactly opposite view I have of that. Since, these are just our best guesses/perceptions based on hypothetical scenarios, we both have chances of being correct.
I just wonder at sheer hypocrisy of some here. Yep, India were really afraid of facing Pak in '90s. If that makes you guys sleep better.
Tendulkar was by far the best Batsman in the 90s and played against bowlers of better ability and conditions throughout the world so make some sense before saying Tendulkar would have been averaging 30odd in the 90s against Pakistan.
And to think this guy has clocked 80K-odd posts on this forum. Some would expect a bit better from him, but hell no.... When it comes to India, logic and common sense takes backseat.
Itachi
6th July 2011, 07:54
I am missing the point of this thread. If a player plays against 7 or 8 countries, there obviously will be 1 team against which, he'll score less.... Its logical. If you think its taming then yeah its taming.
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 07:54
Nice post, Alizeefan. Very interesting.
By injury, I was referring to the much cited hit on the face one.
That was his second innings and not the first one.
On the last day of the last Test of his first Test series, in Sialkot, gets hit on the nose by Waqar Younis - also in his first series. Falls down, gets up, and wipes away the gushing blood. Medical assistance is declined. Is eventually out for 57.
what ho
6th July 2011, 07:56
Ah, I see. Thanks. His last innings of the series.
cricaddict
6th July 2011, 08:08
The reason he didnt get much exposure during the 90s was India and BCCI cowardly refusal not to play Pakistan due to fear of getting one hell of a hammering. Yes it maybe presumptions but i recon if Pakistan played India regularly in tests in the 90s Sachins would have probably been averaging in the High 30s in terms off an average.
This is one of those idiotic lies that I cant quite possibly understand why all you guys seem to fall for ... there was only one Test tour in the 1990s that was cancelled and the decision was taken by PCB to not tour India ( and not the other way round ). This happened in 1993 and the reason : Shiv Sena :D:))) ( in b4 you claim Shiv Sena to be in hand with Congress + RAW to protect the Cricket team lol )
BTW Do you think India is scared of your phashht bowlers as of today .. considering how there has been no test matches for nearly 4 yrs ? Your team would get owned if they played today .... be thankfull for the Talibanis for having brought this situation where there is no cricket lolz
dinakar
6th July 2011, 08:11
The reason he didnt get much exposure during the 90s was India and BCCI cowardly refusal not to play Pakistan due to fear of getting one hell of a hammering.
but the actual fact, it was PCB who always chickened out in 90s. "strangely" they were ready to play only in Sharjah!
Howzat
6th July 2011, 08:16
Tamed? I think that average is higher than any current Pakistani batsman's current average.
Justcrazy
6th July 2011, 08:23
Tendulkar is no doubt the best batsman of this era. There is no question of taming him. Average of 42 plus is pretty decent.
Justcrazy
6th July 2011, 08:24
yes if it was under 30, you could have said that Tendu has been tamed but not with that average
shark11
6th July 2011, 10:24
what a childish thread.......42 avg is not avg by any means.....
Tera Gawaandi
6th July 2011, 10:53
Sachin played 27 innings against Pakistan, 6 in debut series at age of 16. 15 in period when his form was very bad not just against Pakistan but all teams (2003-2007). 6 in 1999 series, only 1 century. Still a hell of a average. Very small sample to give any verdict.
Romali_rotti
6th July 2011, 10:55
Everything is relative..... average of 42.00 used to be a great average in 1970s but now Samraweera has an average of 54.08.
From 1989 to 2007 (when Sachin played vs Pakistan), these batsmen scored 1000+ runs vs Pakistan...sorted by average;
Lara has 4 100's against Pak ?? thats interesting I was under the impression he didnt have even 1...
umerz
6th July 2011, 11:38
Lara has 4 100's against Pak ?? thats interesting I was under the impression he didnt have even 1...
Lara was only able to score those hundreds when Pakistan bowling attack was TAMED :sami :rana :sohail
aanand
6th July 2011, 11:49
I think you should be telling this to your Indian mates who repeatedly bring the WC matches into the equation for no apparent reason. Nobody had mentioned it before he/she came along.
And to the other dude saying it wasn't a flat-track - the fact both sets of batsmen didn't capitalise on it doesn't make it less so.
There were no demons in that pitch.
Wahab just bowled brilliantly.
Pls dont cry, try your luck in the next world cup:))
Probably wouldn't have been more than 35 if he had played the 2 Ws in their prime.
Equinox
6th July 2011, 12:15
Oh wow Habibul Bashar has a better average against Pakistan lol.
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 12:19
Probably wouldn't have been more than 35 if he had played the 2 Ws in their prime.
Probably would have been more than 50 even if their two Ws played him in his prime. ;-)
One W was ok against India and other W was just poor performer.
:waqar never played enough against India, a bowler of his class and devastating ability would have not had any problems.
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 12:30
Superb thread KKWC.
Clearly Pakistan owned Teenda and had Teenda faced the legandary Ws then his average would've been in the low 30s against Pakistan. Pakistan = Pioneering + legendary bowling team.
PS: Laughing at the Indians, you guys love to use stats to boost Teenda rain, sleet or shine, but now that this thread uses the same medicine you all cry 'rubbish thread'.
:)
Sir john
6th July 2011, 12:32
questioning over :sachin is like banging your head on wall.
Sir john
6th July 2011, 12:33
:waqar never played enough against India, a bowler of his class and devastating ability would have not had any problems.
jooh hoo nahi saaka uske baare maain baat karke kya fayda :13:
:kapil
akheR
6th July 2011, 12:33
An average of 42 is bad ? :facepalm:
The 5 world cup games you have lost to us, :sachin was MOM in 3 of them.
World Cup games have nothing to do with the Test average. :raza
They're ODI games, falling into the 69-47 record bracket I guess. Pakistan having the 69 wins. :afridi
In fact, the point of the OP was that averaging 42 is not what you expect from the God of Cricket, the greatest bat to ever grace the cosmic creation, let alone the cricket ground.
Without being a 'bad' average, of course.
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 12:35
:waqar never played enough against India, a bowler of his class and devastating ability would have not had any problems.
Batsman of Sachin's class would also have managed him. Though it might have been an epic battle. Good quality bowling, class batsman, one can only imagine.
P.S. Why didn't Waqar play against India in some series?
This thread has potential to last longer:sachin
Romali_rotti
6th July 2011, 12:42
Pls dont cry, try your luck in the next world cup:))
Come on man, SS didnt bring up WC in this thread, stick with the topic..
aanand
6th July 2011, 12:44
Superb thread KKWC.
Clearly Pakistan owned Teenda and had Teenda faced the legandary Ws then his average would've been in the low 30s against Pakistan. Pakistan = Pioneering + legendary bowling team.
PS: Laughing at the Indians, you guys love to use stats to boost Teenda rain, sleet or shine, but now that this thread uses the same medicine you all cry 'rubbish thread'.
:)
Whatever, your thread is based on assumptions and in cricket there is no place for Ifs and buts, had Ws played against him, Tendulkar would had destroyed their careeer bowling figures,the way he did it in 2003 world cup.
W63L35
6th July 2011, 12:46
As I said, everything is relative...... if you look at Sachin's ODI record vs Pakistan and compare to other batsmen who have scored 1000 or more ODI runs..... you'll see he is in the middle of the pack and has done pretty decent.
Now if you look at the 2nd list.... compare his performance against Pakistan with his performances against other countries.... he pretty much "failed" against Pakistan by his own standards;
Howzat
6th July 2011, 12:49
Batsman of Sachin's class would also have managed him. Though it might have been an epic battle. Good quality bowling, class batsman, one can only imagine.
P.S. Why didn't Waqar play against India in some series?
May be he chickened out. Just mentioning a possibility.
driver26
6th July 2011, 13:05
No matter what happens the phainty that Sultans of swing got in the 2003 World Cup match will continue to haunt them forever since it put a full stop to there careers forever and Akhtar Bhai, well his worst nightmare would be a nobody like Ross Taylor .
Wasim came and Gone
Waqar came and Gone
Akhtar came and Gone
Tendulkar still standing Victorious .
Has a World Cup trophy naw and also on the verge of creating history by scoring 100 tons .
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 13:07
Whatever, your thread is based on assumptions and in cricket there is no place for Ifs and buts, had Ws played against him, Tendulkar would had destroyed their careeer bowling figures,the way he did it in 2003 world cup.
On one hand you say no Ifs no Buts, then you suggest 'had' Teenda played against the 2Ws he'd have destroyed their career. Superb! Assuming too much?
It's simple, this thread is based on recorded stats, though stats are not everything. and more importantly, stats are not a measure of greatness.
PS: It's not my thread.
:)
cricketfanfirst
6th July 2011, 13:10
As I said, everything is relative...... if you look at Sachin's ODI record vs Pakistan and compare to other batsmen who have scored 1000 or more ODI runs..... you'll see he is in the middle of the pack and has done pretty decent.
Now if you look at the 2nd list.... compare his performance against Pakistan with his performances against other countries.... he pretty much "failed" against Pakistan by his own standards;
Agree with your statement on relative performance, his stats do not reflect the same against Pakistan. An average of around 39-40 for anyone in ODI is very good but for Sachin it is still below his normal standards, so as you nailed it is all about his relative performances against Pakistan. I guess it is very difficult to find any player in the history of the game which has similar average against all oppositions at home and away during all times, so is Sachin and this thread should be taken in that spirit by all including Sachin's fans.
May be, we can say Sachin has under-performed against Pakistan as compared to his ability instead of saying he has failed.
(P.s : Also, just off topic Viv Richards has a mediocre ODI average against Pakistan compared to his overall ODI average but that does not mean he could not play fast bowling/quality bowling, similar to the others who were suggesting with regards to Sachin earlier)
aanand
6th July 2011, 13:17
[QUOTE=Namak_Halaal;3975280]On one hand you say no Ifs no Buts, then you suggest 'had' Teenda played against the 2Ws he'd have destroyed their career. Superb! Assuming too much?
It's simple, this thread is based on recorded stats, though stats are not everything. and more importantly, stats are not a measure of greatness.
PS: It's not my thread.
:)[/QUOTE
Buddy, i mentioned about the point abt Tendulkar destroying their figures in 2003 WC.
P.S- Its not my thread also :)
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 13:23
Buddy, i mentioned about the point abt Tendulkar destroying their figures in 2003 WC.
Irrelevant.
W63L35
6th July 2011, 13:26
May be, we can say Sachin has under-performed against Pakistan as compared to his ability instead of saying he has failed.
OK...
Sachin has failed to perform against Pakistan as compared to his ability.
Happy? :P
aanand
6th July 2011, 13:28
Irrelevant.
Yes , just the way this thread is irrelevant
cricketindiafan
6th July 2011, 13:32
Slightly irrelevant but had there been more series in the 90s between us, the deadly duo of Srinath and Venky Prasad would have ended with a much better bowling average. Their best career stats are against Pakistan (3 tests, 17 wickets@21 for Srinath and 3 tests, 11 wickets@19 for Venky) :)
cricketfanfirst
6th July 2011, 13:38
OK...
Sachin has failed to perform against Pakistan as compared to his ability.
Happy? :P
:)
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 13:39
Yes , just the way this thread is irrelevant
No it's not. This thread is relevant to cricket, where as your point of WC2003 is irrelevant to the OP.
Again, even though you said this is my thread [post #79], once again, I should remind you, it is not.
:)
Itachi
6th July 2011, 13:49
On one hand you say no Ifs no Buts, then you suggest 'had' Teenda played against the 2Ws he'd have destroyed their career. Superb! Assuming too much?
It's simple, this thread is based on recorded stats, though stats are not everything. and more importantly, stats are not a measure of greatness.
PS: It's not my thread.
:)
i have to say, i like your posts.;-)
greatness isn't measured by stats. I also believe that. It needs an x factor. Tendu has it or not, it is upto own judgement. But i think majority believes he has.
Wasim, lara, warne.... All the legends always had something.... (talent.... +....)
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 13:59
i have to say, i like your posts.;-)
greatness isn't measured by stats. I also believe that. It needs an x factor. Tendu has it or not, it is upto own judgement. But i think majority believes he has.
Wasim, lara, warne.... All the legends always had something.... (talent.... +....)
Spot on.
There is a famous WC thread on PP discussing this very point, in that, how does one measure greatness in the absence of stats? My intro to PP - what a rush that was! :D
KingKhanWC
6th July 2011, 14:46
lol@ Indian fans getting upset by simple facts.
Tendulkar has his lowest test average against Pakistan. His second lowest ODI average is also against Pakistan.
Regardless of whether one thinks the averages are good, bad or ugly, the point is Mr Sachin Tendulkar's hardest opposition has been the mighty Pakistan. Since India are not likely to play Pakistan again before he retires, history will show this. :)
cricketloverindia
6th July 2011, 14:54
Someone enlighten me what's the end result of this thread. Has Sachin being tamed? I think Pakistan deserves to be #1 in cricket in all forms just for taming Sachin :)
Blitz
6th July 2011, 14:56
Someone enlighten me what's the end result of this thread. Has Sachin being tamed? I think Pakistan deserves to be #1 in cricket in all forms just for taming Sachin :)
Hey hey, its a fun thread :yk
I think the point of the thread is, Pakistan have found a weakness. If only a small weakness, its still one.
Now heres where things get interesting.
Every Cricket Board now needs to study how we bowled to Sachin, and replicate it!
If done correctly, Mr Tendulker should bow out as Mr 99 :)
W63L35
6th July 2011, 14:58
lol@ Indian fans getting upset by simple facts.
Where is RA ...when you need him? :P
As he would say..... Sachin-fans phir ro rahay hain! :)
...but I think, it is time to switch to....
Sachin-fans har waqat rotay hi rehtay hain! ;-)
The reason he didnt get much exposure during the 90s was India and BCCI cowardly refusal not to play Pakistan due to fear of getting one hell of a hammering. Yes it maybe presumptions but i recon if Pakistan played India regularly in tests in the 90s Sachins would have probably been averaging in the High 30s in terms off an average.
Wrong Information
Pakistan refused to tour India 1st.
In 1990 they refused to come to India to play the Asia cup.
1991-92:They refused to tour India for a bilateral series.SA toured India instead
1993.Pakistan again Refused to tour India and SL toured in its place.
India retaliated by not touring Pakistan in 1995.
Pakistan will arrive in India on January 21. Pakistan last toured India 12 years ago but pulled out of a one-day series with their near neighbours in 1991 and also cancelled two more in 1993 and 1994 because of security fears.
I quote this from an article by cricinfo,then known as cricket.org in 1999.This was just before the Pakistan team toured India in 1999 and shiv sena was up to its idiocy.
http://web.archive.org/web/19991103022023/www.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/1999/JAN/VIOLENCE_THREATENED_07JAN1999.html
Get your facts right.
Sachin avgd 38 againist the Pak team in ODIs in 1990s,which was very good in those days.So i dont know why you think he would have failed.
Wasim's Avg againist India 29
Waqar's 45
Akhtar's 35
It seems Indian batting tamed Paksitan bowling....
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 15:57
Wasim's Avg againist India 29
Waqar's 45
Akhtar's 35
It seems Indian batting tamed Paksitan bowling....
Please stick to topic. This thread is in reference to Teenda's average against Pakistan.
The logic is simple, if Teenda is considered the greatest living batsman of our time, then his average against Pakistan is a testament to Pakistan's superior bowling.
I would not call an average of 42 taming.
How many of our current test batsman average that much? Maybe Misbah, thats it.
So a tame tendulkar > any current Pakistani batsman
rubbish thread
this
jeetu
6th July 2011, 16:00
When it comes to Sachin facts don't matter for most guys here. Avg of 40+ is considered "tamed" is pretty hilarious.
Sachin haters continue to make fool of themselves with these threads.
Indiafan
6th July 2011, 16:03
Please stick to topic. This thread is in reference to Teenda's average against Pakistan.
The logic is simple, if Teenda is considered the greatest living batsman of our time, then his average against Pakistan is a testament to Pakistan's superior bowling.
If you consider an average of 42 as taming, you must have really low expectation from your bowler. Now Ponting, he was tamed by indian bowlers in india which prove that our bowelrs are one of the most superior in the world
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 16:03
When it comes to Sachin facts don't matter for most guys here. Avg of 40+ is considered "tamed" is pretty hilarious.
Sachin haters continue to make fool of themselves with these threads.
You are missing the point. Teenda was tamed by Pakistan with respect to his average against other nations. Lowest against Pakistan?
I do not understand why Indians simply fess up to the fact that Teenda found Pakistani bowling too hot to handle.
It's not the average figure that is in question, but rather why his average was lowest against Pakistan.
Indiafan
6th July 2011, 16:08
You are missing the point. Teenda was tamed by Pakistan with respect to his average against other nations. Lowest against Pakistan?
I do not understand why Indians simply fess up to the fact Pakistani bowling was too hot to handle for Teenda.
Again there is a sea difference between too hot to handle and average coming down to a respectable 42. When the sample size is 18 matches, some of which he played when he was 18 and some when he was going trough the worst phase of his career. I dont think thats too bad personally, but hey if the maximum you want from your bowlers is to keep the batsmen ona 42 average, then it might seem earth-shaking for you
Indiafan
6th July 2011, 16:10
It's not the average figure that is in question, but rather why his average was lowest against Pakistan.
Apart from the obvious fact that he missed playing Pakistan in his prime and played them during the worst phase of his career and still ended up averaging 42? If that doesnt answer your why, I am sure it will answer to most sane people
jheenga
6th July 2011, 16:15
Still a hell of a average. What us Pakistani fans would do for only one of our players to have that average.
lol. sherlock killed it :))
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 16:19
Apart from the obvious fact that he missed playing Pakistan in his prime and played them during the worst phase of his career and still ended up averaging 42? If that doesnt answer your why, I am sure it will answer to most sane people
Sorry, you cannot play the time card. Will you accept Trott is a better batsman than Teenda based on Trott's current Test average which is based on a comparatively smaller time period?
Of course you will not.
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 16:22
Again there is a sea difference between too hot to handle and average coming down to a respectable 42. When the sample size is 18 matches, some of which he played when he was 18 and some when he was going trough the worst phase of his career. I dont think thats too bad personally, but hey if the maximum you want from your bowlers is to keep the batsmen ona 42 average, then it might seem earth-shaking for you
I just think you are making excuses now to be honest.
Teenda played 18 matches vs Pak. Do you ever stop to consider how many matches Teenda has played in his carrer to attain his total number of runs in his career? It is all relative.
W63L35
6th July 2011, 16:43
Sachin haters continue to make fool of themselves with these threads.
Add one more to the list.... and he is not even from Pakistan! ;-)
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=132196
driver26
6th July 2011, 16:51
Hatred for Sachin is directly proportional to Hatred for India & Indians :afridi
what ho
6th July 2011, 17:10
Hatred for Sachin is directly proportional to Hatred for India & Indians :afridi
That's an asinine statement, if there ever was one.
mastermind_quad
6th July 2011, 17:24
perhaps BCCI is currently taking revenge from PCB for this ...:P
W63L35
6th July 2011, 17:30
Hatred for Sachin is directly proportional to Hatred for India & Indians :afridi
Just found out that Dravid also hates India and Indians.
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=132196
Itachi
6th July 2011, 17:40
You are missing the point. Teenda was tamed by Pakistan with respect to his average against other nations. Lowest against Pakistan?
I do not understand why Indians simply fess up to the fact that Teenda found Pakistani bowling too hot to handle.
It's not the average figure that is in question, but rather why his average was lowest against Pakistan.
i will also agree with the bolded part. Why it is so hard to accept? Tendulkar has the lowest average against pakistan? So what? Does it makes him any low?
As i have already said, when you play against various nations, there bound to be one nation against which you'll score low. Generally against a nation who has good bowling attack. Pakistan was one of those and so he has the least average. Can't be call tamed but yup, he was in backfoot.
driver26
6th July 2011, 17:41
Just found out that Dravid also hates India and Indians.
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=132196
Having an opinion between Tendulkar and Lara doesnt decide the hate factor .
But to undermine him as a useless selfish player with no evidence to back it up certainly does .
Dravid said Lara is his favourite player not that Lara is better than Tendulkar...........some people and their aasumptions.....
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 17:47
I do not understand why Indians simply fess up to the fact that Teenda found Pakistani bowling too hot to handle.
Why it is so hard to accept? Tendulkar has the lowest average against pakistan?
Because that honour was given to Hansie Cronje. ;-) Not sure which bowling line-up he found most difficult to play.
cornered-tigers
6th July 2011, 17:49
[QUOTE=driver26;3975933]Having an opinion between Tendulkar and Lara doesnt decide the hate factor .
cornered-tigers
6th July 2011, 17:51
Dravid said Lara is his favourite player not that Lara is better than Tendulkar...........some people and their aasumptions.....
so if someone is my favorite then that means he is not the best for me? what a lame statement you made here,
what ho
6th July 2011, 18:06
so if someone is my favorite then that means he is not the best for me? what a lame statement you made here,
Actually, it doesn't and it isn't. For instance, Derek Randall is one of my favourite players. But I will certainly not say he is the best player in my book. Or, for a more topical example, Afridi is many posters' favourite player on here but I would bet that most of them wouldn't argue that he is the best player!
KFC_Zinger
6th July 2011, 18:20
You are missing the point. Teenda was tamed by Pakistan with respect to his average against other nations. Lowest against Pakistan?
I do not understand why Indians simply fess up to the fact that Teenda found Pakistani bowling too hot to handle.
If someone has a batting avg of 42 which incidentally is higher than most of the local Pak batsmen, then its not called TAMING... :facepalm:
Taming is Sehwag Vs Pak averaging > 90 at a strike rate of > 80.... Now dude thats what i call TOO HOT TO HANDLE..... :)))
Any batsman who averages 42 against any team obviously does not feel its bowling too hot to handle coz guess what, everytime he walks out he scores an avg of 42... it aint bad.... go ask all ur batsmen... :)
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 18:28
Actually, it doesn't and it isn't. For instance, Derek Randall is one of my favourite players. But I will certainly not say he is the best player in my book. Or, for a more topical example, Afridi is many posters' favourite player on here but I would bet that most of them wouldn't argue that he is the best player!
You never know. By CT's logic, they might think Afridi is best batsman in the world.
MoYo is my favorite Pakistani batsman. Should I think that he was best Pakistani batsman? :13:
Itachi
6th July 2011, 18:30
Because that honour was given to Hansie Cronje. ;-) Not sure which bowling line-up he found most difficult to play.
ow.... Couldn't found the stat. How much his avg against pakistan?
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 18:35
ow.... Couldn't found the stat. How much his avg against pakistan?
Nah, that was a reply to comment "Sachin found Pakistan bowling attack too hot to handle", while Sachin said that Cronje was the toughest bowler he faced.
questioning over :sachin is like banging your head on wall.
Very well said
Itachi
6th July 2011, 18:47
Nah, that was a reply to comment "Sachin found Pakistan bowling attack too hot to handle", while Sachin said that Cronje was the toughest bowler he faced.
oopsy, i took the wrong context.... My mistake. ;-)
so if someone is my favorite then that means he is not the best for me? what a lame statement you made here,
Brett Lee is my favourite bowler.....But Wasim Akram is the best bowler according to me..
KingKhanWC
6th July 2011, 19:21
Nobody has given a detailed answer to this question.
Why has Sachin got his lowest test average and his second lowest ODI average V Pakistan?
Speaks for itself.
That's what, ten points below his career average?
Tamed. :wasim
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 19:39
Nobody has given a detailed answer to this question.
Why has Sachin got his lowest test average and his second lowest ODI average V Pakistan?
Mere bhai the answer is dead simple, Pakistani bowling is don. :)
Mere bhai the answer is dead simple, Pakistani bowling is don. :)
why does Pakistani bowlers
Wasim avgs 29
Waqar avgs 48
Shoaib avgs 35
Indian batting is DON....
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 19:46
If someone has a batting avg of 42 which incidentally is higher than most of the local Pak batsmen, then its not called TAMING... :facepalm:
Taming is Sehwag Vs Pak averaging > 90 at a strike rate of > 80.... Now dude thats what i call TOO HOT TO HANDLE..... :)))
Any batsman who averages 42 against any team obviously does not feel its bowling too hot to handle coz guess what, everytime he walks out he scores an avg of 42... it aint bad.... go ask all ur batsmen... :)
You are missing the point. You are defending a figure of 42 by comparing the average against other batsmen. I might as well compare Teenda's overall test average against Trott and claim Teend'a is pants over Trott.
This doesn't answer the question of why Teenda achieved his lowest average against Pakistan. Again, just in case you haven’t figured it out, we are comparing Teenda's average against all nations he has played against so making the comparison between other batsmen is an irrelevant point.
Hence, comparing Teenda's average against all nations he has played against, Pakistan tamed Teenda and the result was Teenda's average against Pakistan was his lowest.
There's no need to get all defensive, just accept the cold hard facts.
KingKhanWC
6th July 2011, 19:46
Mere bhai the answer is dead simple, Pakistani bowling is don. :)
You win NH. :19:
s2k, start a thread on it and we can discuss it. You do realise bowling and batting are different trades? Sachin had the best battting conditions in Pakistan and India, did the bowlers have the best bowling conditions?
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 19:47
why does Pakistani bowlers
Wasim avgs 29
Waqar avgs 48
Shoaib avgs 35
Indian batting is DON....
Unfortunately we are not discussing India's batting here, just Teenda vs. Pakistan.
When you start touting irrelevant stats then it's pretty obvious you concede to the OP.
Sledger
6th July 2011, 19:49
Some idiotic (though not unexpected) posts in this thread. As usual, as this thread isn't highlighting how Tendulkar's farts smell of strawberries and cream, a lot of emotional posters have jumped on it and labelled the OP a hater.
For a start, it would help if people actually look at the first post and see how the stats are simply put in the context of the rest of his career. Nobody here has denied that post, because there is nothing there that isn't fact. People have taken exception to the word 'tamed' and therefore seen that as some sort of reason to go down the Indian/Pakistani route. For all those who are indeed posting stats reagrding Pakistani players averages against certain teams, then yes, well done you have understood how to use cricinfo and see what this thread is showing. Now try to address the topic in hand. When people try to counter this by bringing in some sort of unrelated point like India's WC record against Pakistan it's just embarrassing.
On topic, I would say that it's probably a combination of a few things. Pakistan's bowling has usually been of decent standard despite the wickets they play on and obviously there's always pressure in these games. Also, it could be argued that Tendulkar was miles ahead of his peers in a lot of those early series so that adds an additional pressure in itself, and he would have also been targetted by Pakistan's bowlers moreso. Secondly, it could just be that some players have poorer records against certain teams, in this case it could just be a coincidence as his 40 average is certainly nothing to be scoffed at.
cricketindiafan
6th July 2011, 19:53
Mere bhai the answer is dead simple, Pakistani bowling is don. :)
Agreed on that.
Now look at the averages of the another great Lara vs India
Test avg- 35, 17 points below his career avg
ODI avg- 32, 8 points below his career avg.
Can we use your logic to conclude something about the Indian bowling similar to what you said in the quoted post :)
KingKhanWC
6th July 2011, 19:59
On topic, I would say that it's probably a combination of a few things. Pakistan's bowling has usually been of decent standard despite the wickets they play on and obviously there's always pressure in these games. Also, it could be argued that Tendulkar was miles ahead of his peers in a lot of those early series so that adds an additional pressure in itself, and he would have also been targetted by Pakistan's bowlers moreso. Secondly, it could just be that some players have poorer records against certain teams, in this case it could just be a coincidence as his 40 average is certainly nothing to be scoffed at.
There you go. Simple and straight forward reaons.
The targetting is a great point. Even the young bolwers always want to get Sachin, his wicket is their biggest goal. Amir stated this himself and got his man in the CT trophy. I think the Pakistan team has always realised getting Sachin out cheaply or not letting him get away puts pressure on the rest of the team. This is the same resaon why teams target the skipper which also has the same affect on the team.
Unfortunately we are not discussing India's batting here, just Teenda vs. Pakistan.
When you start touting irrelevant stats then it's pretty obvious you concede to the OP.
Concede what?That 42 is a pathetic avg????
It is a very respectable avg......
Let me ask you a question
Sobers avgs less than 20 againist NZ so does Viv so they were tamed or was the NZ bowling Don?
cricketindiafan
6th July 2011, 20:13
There you go. Simple and straight forward reaons.
The targetting is a great point. Even the young bolwers always want to get Sachin, his wicket is their biggest goal. Amir stated this himself and got his man in the CT trophy. I think the Pakistan team has always realised getting Sachin out cheaply or not letting him get away puts pressure on the rest of the team. This is the same resaon why teams target the skipper which also has the same affect on the team.
Quite similar to the issues Warne has had against us. Bad form at times, injuries sometimes and good batting by our batsmen on other occasions , all combined together meant he had a bad average against us.
All those three reason hold true for Sachin's avergae performance against Pakistan. Bad form (2005-06), injuries ( back injury in1999 and tennis elbow in 2006)) and obviously great bowling by your bowlers ..all put together show up in that average of 42.
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 20:17
Concede what?That 42 is a pathetic avg????
Don't get tensed, man. Concede that Sachin was good against Pakistan and very good against others. That's all. Is that very difficult to accept for you?
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 20:17
Concede what?That 42 is a pathetic avg????
It is a very respectable avg......
Concede to the fact that Teenda's batting average is lowest against Pakistan. Come on mate, there's no need to repeat myself here. You are not denying the stats in the OP. Respectable doesn't explain why Teenda's average was lowest against Pakistan.
KingKhanWC
6th July 2011, 20:18
Concede what?That 42 is a pathetic avg????
It is a very respectable avg......
Let me ask you a question
Sobers avgs less than 20 againist NZ so does Viv so they were tamed or was the NZ bowling Don?
Why not? If NZ managed to keep Sobers down to an average less than 20 then they did something right?
It's really not about average but why Sachin's lowest average is against Pakistan? Any bright ideas?
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 20:22
Agreed on that.
Now look at the averages of the another great Lara vs India
Test avg- 35, 17 points below his career avg
ODI avg- 32, 8 points below his career avg.
Can we use your logic to conclude something about the Indian bowling similar to what you said in the quoted post :)
This is all irrelevant. Again you are defending his average when this is not the point. It was a simple question, why is Teenda’s average the lowest against Pakistan compared with other nations? Just because Teenda’s average is the lowest against Pakistan doesn’t mean you have to compare his average with other batsmen in order to justify he is a top player.
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 20:22
Concede to the fact that Teenda's batting average is lowest against Pakistan.
It's a fact.
Respectable doesn't explain why Teenda's average was lowest against Pakistan.
Not sure about the exact reasons. If you come up with any, do tell us.
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 20:23
Not sure about the exact reasons. If you come up with any, do tell us.
Pak bowling tamed Teenda. Simples. :)
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 20:31
Pak bowling tamed Teenda. Simples. :)
Nah, the sentence is still not proper to explain it. Come up with more suitable word. ;-)
Till then another happy SachinPassion day for all Pakistani fans.
cricketindiafan
6th July 2011, 20:36
This is all irrelevant. Again you are defending his average when this is not the point. It was a simple question, why is Teenda’s average the lowest against Pakistan compared with other nations? Just because Teenda’s average is the lowest against Pakistan doesn’t mean you have to compare his average with other batsmen in order to justify he is a top player.
I have already given my reason on why his average is lesser compared to his career average.
Now instead of avoiding my question, can you please respond to it, thanks :)
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 20:45
I have already given my reason on why his average is lesser compared to his career average.
We are not talking about lesser, we are talking about lowest!
Now instead of avoiding my question, can you please respond to it, thanks :)
I'm not avoiding your question, it's just that it is irrelvant.
Was Lara's average against India his lowest against all nations? If not, then no, we cannot use my logic to conclude something about the Indian bowling similar to what I said.
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 20:49
Was Lara's average against India his lowest against all nations? If not, then no, we cannot use my logic to conclude something about the Indian bowling similar to what I said.
Yes, his avg of 34.55 in 17 matches against India was lowest among all opposition team he played.
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 20:52
Yes, his avg of 34.55 in 17 matches against India was lowest among all opposition team he played.
In that case India tamed Lara. Agreed?
cricketindiafan
6th July 2011, 20:58
In that case India tamed Lara. Agreed?
Yes and that Indian bowling is don :P
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 21:06
In that case India tamed Lara. Agreed?
No comments. :afridi
Namak_Halaal
6th July 2011, 21:14
Yes and that Indian bowling is don :P
Against Lara, perhaps.
But atleast we've proved that Teenda fans have no issues with the word 'tamed' as long as India can share the accolade too! :)
AlizeeFan
6th July 2011, 21:19
Against Lara, perhaps.
But atleast we've proved that Teenda fan (http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/member.php?u=45053) have no issues with the word 'tamed' as long as India can share the accolade too! :)
Corrected. I guess both of you have mutually agreed that Sachin was tamed by Pakistan, Lara was tamed by India and Waqar was tamed by India.
Itachi
6th July 2011, 22:44
Oh.... So.... Both the party win today? toh phir chalo.... Boriya bistar baandho aur ghar chalo.... ;)
skittles
6th July 2011, 23:16
sachinpassion.net
Wow.
So many Indians on here completely missing the point of the thread.
Nobody is contending that an average of 42 is mediocre or bad. Nobody is denying Sachin's greatness (God forbid).
All the thread is saying is there is a staggering drop in his average against Pakistan.
Perhaps the use of the term 'tamed' is a bit strong, but argue that, or leave the thread.
The fact that World Cup matches and MoM awards were even mentioned shows how people have completely misunderstood the thread.
cornered-tigers
7th July 2011, 00:18
Corrected. I guess both of you have mutually agreed that Sachin was tamed by Pakistan, Lara was tamed by India and Waqar was tamed by India.
Waqar was tamed by India only when he was not at his best. Your Governemnt did not allow your team to play with Pakistan for 12 freaking years after you lost in 1987 to Imran's tigers. In those twelve years, Waqar had already passed his peak in the early three or four years. If you Indian batsmen would have faced him during that time, they would have met the same fate of England, Aussie, WIndies and NZ batsmen,
adit_sh
7th July 2011, 00:48
Waqar was tamed by India only when he was not at his best. Your Governemnt did not allow your team to play with Pakistan for 12 freaking years after you lost in 1987 to Imran's tigers. In those twelve years, Waqar had already passed his peak in the early three or four years. If you Indian batsmen would have faced him during that time, they would have met the same fate of England, Aussie, WIndies and NZ batsmen,
I thought India played pak in 89 too...isnt it? An someone mentioned above that Pak did not do a return tour to India due to security fears....was that S2K?
For the bold part , SRT has the least avg against Pak ( tamed -42) when he was not at his best and hit by injury.
Anyway I concede for sure that he played other countries better than Pak....possibly due to lot of pressure of playing Pak in 90's. and he was the only saving grace to then pathetic Indian team.
Fireworks11
7th July 2011, 01:11
Yes , just the way this thread is irrelevant
Simple facts presented by the OP. Accept it. :wasim :akhtar
Anyway I concede for sure that he played other countries better than Pak....possibly due to lot of pressure of playing Pak in 90's. and he was the only saving grace to then pathetic Indian team.
....and sanity has prevailed.
Howzat
7th July 2011, 04:17
Tamed? At 42 average? Some people are going mad over Sachin. They probably wake up in the middle of the night screaming Sachin's name. :))
Fireworks11
7th July 2011, 15:03
Tamed? At 42 average? Some people are going mad over Sachin. They probably wake up in the middle of the night screaming Sachin's name. :))
Read the OP carefully, compared to his averages against the other teams, it's safe to say didn't perform to his full potential against Pakistan.
Definition: Tame
1. Brought from wildness into a domesticatedb or tractable state.
2. to tone down, soften, or mitigate
A career average dropping by 12 from 54 to 42 i.e. a 22% drop in a batting average could reasonably be considered to be 'toned down' and 'softened', no?
To go as far as to say he was 'mitigated' is a bit far-fetched, but I would generally agree with the contention of the OP otherwise. His 'wild' average of 54 is brought down to a 'tractable state' of 42.
Nobody is saying he is bad against us. We are just saying he is not as good against us as he is against the rest of the world. And that is completely logical.
Pakistan is known to have had some brilliant bowling attacks. Add to that the pressure of an Indo-Pak match and you have the right ingredients to create some sort of dent in Sachin's average.
The fact that people are getting offended at the contention of the OP goes to show how disillusioned some people can be and how much of a pedestal they've put this man on.
cricketindiafan
8th July 2011, 06:50
Definition: Tame
1. Brought from wildness into a domesticatedb or tractable state.
2. to tone down, soften, or mitigate
A career average dropping by 12 from 54 to 42 i.e. a 22% drop in a batting average could reasonably be considered to be 'toned down' and 'softened', no?
How illogical would it sound if someone says Akram was 'tamed' by India? Bowling average of 29 vs us compared to career avg of 24, i.e, a jump of exactly 22%? Or for that matter Shoaib Akhtar, avg of 35 against us vs a career avg of 26, a jump of 30%?
what ho
8th July 2011, 06:59
Using tame in a relative sense, it has be admitted that an average of 42 (as compared to a career one of 57) can only be termed taming. In an absolute sense, it depends on what the threshold is.
How illogical would it sound if someone says Akram was 'tamed' by India? Bowling average of 29 vs us compared to career avg of 24, i.e, a jump of exactly 22%? Or for that matter Shoaib Akhtar, avg of 35 against us vs a career avg of 26, a jump of 30%?
What are you talking about?! How could Akram (greatest left armer ever) and Akhtar (fastest bowler ever) be tamed by Indians?! Preposterous!
[/feigned indignation]
Well if the definition of 'tamed' was used in the same manner, then that wouldn't be illogical at all (esp in the case of Shoaib's jump to a 35 avg).
Not illogical at all.
Just as Sachin's average takes a dent against one of the stronger bowling lineups in past years, Akram's and Shoaib's bowling averages take a dent against arguably one of the strongest batting lineups over the past decade (this is especially true in Shoaib's case where his career has spanned across an era when India's batting has been its strongest in India's history perhaps).
I don't see why that is illogical. The push and pull of strong batting vs strong bowling attacks obviously work both ways.
Using tame in a relative sense, it has be admitted that an average of 42 (as compared to a career one of 57) can only be termed taming. In an absolute sense, it depends on what the threshold is.
Exactly.
We didn't mitigate him or his threat.
Hell, if he scored 42 against us each game on average, where's the mitigation?
But according to his own lofty standards, he has been brought back down to a level where he is considered 'mortal'.
Would be interesting to see which batsman had the highest batting average against Pakistan.
AlizeeFan
8th July 2011, 07:08
Would be interesting to see which batsman had the highest batting average against Pakistan.
Without checking, I think it's Sehwag. He averages over 90 against Pakistan. Someone can verify whether it's right or not.
cricketindiafan
8th July 2011, 07:09
What are you talking about?! How could Akram (greatest left armer ever) and Akhtar (fastest bowler ever) be tamed by Indians?! Preposterous!
[/feigned indignation]
Well if the definition of 'tamed' was used in the same manner, then that wouldn't be illogical at all (esp in the case of Shoaib's jump to a 35 avg).
Not illogical at all.
Just as Sachin's average takes a dent against one of the stronger bowling lineups in past years, Akram's and Shoaib's bowling averages take a dent against arguably one of the strongest batting lineups over the past decade (this is especially true in Shoaib's case where his career has spanned across an era when India's batting has been its strongest in India's history perhaps).
I don't see why that is illogical. The push and pull of strong batting vs strong bowling attacks obviously work both ways.
I understand what you are saying. But I am sure, if there was to be a thread titled "India tamed Wasim or Shoaib", you would see similar reaction to what we have in this thread.
Quite possibly. You can only try and see lol. Let it be your little social PP experiment.
cricketindiafan
8th July 2011, 07:14
Quite possibly. You can only try and see lol. Let it be your little social PP experiment.
Naah, I don't believe in this entire funda of "getting tamed".
Without checking, I think it's Sehwag. He averages over 90 against Pakistan. Someone can verify whether it's right or not.
Yeap it is. Sehwag and Ponting immediately came to mind.
Not surprising to see them both top the list. I guess Ponting's and Taylors averages are bolstered by not-outs.
Courtesty of W65L35:
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15338&stc=1&d=1309920770
what ho
8th July 2011, 07:15
Quite possibly. You can only try and see lol. Let it be your little social PP experiment.
That would be fun! I wouldn't mind doing something like that but it just wouldn't have the same cachet if there is an English player in the comparison, more's the pity.
Interesting though that Sehwag's career has only really spanned after the Wasim/Waqar/Saqlain/Mushtaq era of our bowling.
Lara and Sanath really pop out from that list as they played against what could be arguably construed as Pakistan's strongest bowling attack during the 1990's (Lara with no not-out and Sanath with only one).
That would be fun! I wouldn't mind doing something like that but it just wouldn't have the same cachet if there is an English player in the comparison, more's the pity.
Hehe, give it a go still.
I'll be the first one in there attacking you for it ;)
what ho
8th July 2011, 07:23
Let me think up a suitable player.
AlizeeFan
8th July 2011, 07:28
Yeap it is. Sehwag and Ponting immediately came to mind.
Not surprising to see them both top the list. I guess Ponting's and Taylors averages are bolstered by not-outs.
Courtesty of W65L35:
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15338&stc=1&d=1309920770
Strike rate of Sehwag :O
Even in ODIs, there are only 9 players (among 25 players overall) who have scored more than 1000 runs and SR better than Sehwag's test strike rate against Pakistan.
Let me think up a suitable player.
Inzi is quite topical lol, although that has probably been debated to death already.
Shoaib would provide for a polarised debate, or better yet, Imran ;)
cricketindiafan
8th July 2011, 07:29
Interesting though that Sehwag's career has only really spanned after the Wasim/Waqar/Saqlain/Mushtaq era of our bowling.
Lara and Sanath really pop out from that list as they played against what could be arguably construed as Pakistan's strongest bowling attack during the 1990's (Lara with no not-out and Sanath with only one).
Lara's record would surely be boosted by that majestic series he had in Pakistan in 2005 when he ws hitting 100s at will!
A look at his scores suggests, he did not score a 100 when the 2 Ws played for Pakistan. In fact till 2003, he was averaging 30 vs Pakistan!
lol saying you tamed Tendulkar, he still avg's 42 in tests
Feroz Rawther
11th July 2011, 20:52
A lowest avg: of 42 is not by any means bad. In fact very good, but not great. Every great batsman has definitely a lowest avg: against 1 team or the other. In Sachin's case it is Pakistan though.I feel it is because of a combination of factors.Playing Pakistan in relatively infrequent time intervals,the added pressure of the hype created by media and people expectations of Ind-Pak matches,quality of bowling, playing Pak at teen age, the bowling of Saqlain perfectly suiting to Indian pitches more than even all time great spinners etc combined might be the reason for this. But any way a low avg: of 42 only indicates what a legend he is.
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