Harsha Bhogle:"movement not pace that troubles quality batsman.'

[alberto]

Nasser Hussain quoted arguments from a NASA scientist to suggest that swing has nothing to with the atmosphere - cloud cover and the resultant heaviness in the air - and had everything to with the condition of the ball and the seam position. Many in the commentary box weren’t convinced by this theory. But I am convinced with this theory to an extent.

Wasim Akram was once asked about his ability to swing the ball even on dead tracks. He just calmly replied that it all came from the wrist. By observing closely the bowling of Imran Khan, Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis who had been the pioneers of swing bowling on the deadest tracks it can be seen that they tend to rotate their wrist or open up their wrist when needed. Waqar and Wasim also employed the technique of covering the ball with his hands during his run up to hide the grip, an act which made it difficult for the batsmen to realize what is coming towards their away. The utmost use of the wrist helps to generate swing even on dead tracks.

Cloud cover and heavy atmosphere does help the ball to move madly but along with perfect seam position and the condition of the ball a bowler must also master the art of using the wrist while swinging the ball.

On the 29th July 2011 Harsha Bhogle tweeted, “with sreesanth and praveen kumar the tradition of swing bowling is alive. it is movement not pace that troubles quality batsman.”

I slightly disagree here with Harsha. A quality batsman can command over the swing bowler. Yesterday Rahul Dravid and VVS Laxman showed the world how swing bowling can be countered by allowing it coming close to the body and then playing it by soft hands with astute foot-work. Quality batsmen in the history of cricket who has command over his foot-work and can use the bat with soft hands have scripted majestic innings against swing bowling.

But more than the movement of the ball it’s the speed of the ball that hassle even the quality batsmen. In the first morning at Trent Bridge Sreesanth light up the atmosphere not just by pitching the ball up and swinging it but also generating pace which mostly unsettled the English and again yesterday Stuart Broad’s magical spell not only contained just movement but pace also which curtailed India’s innings.

At Nagpur last year Dale Steyn scripted mayhem to bury India not with movement but with horrendous pace which even Tendulkar had no clue. At Karachi in 1982-83, Imran Khan on a dead track put shiver down the Indian batsmen spine not with movement but electric pace, the famous West Indies quadrate’s pace killed even the best batsmen while Wasim and Waqar’s pace along with ‘sweet’ swing unsettled Lara, Waugh, Tendulkar, De Silva and so on.

Ask the most quality batsmen in the history of the game which bowlers used to unsettle them and most of them will answer of those who generated pace. A swinging ball can be mastered if a batsman stays at the crease and plays with the swing or by leaving it allowing the ball to get old but an electric pace is never to be mastered so easily.

[Amoeba]

Well its both and another factor. Accuracy. Pace, movement and accuracy allied together is the toughest combination for even the best batsman. Remove one of those qualities and the better batsman will usually succeed. This is why Actor is not a great because whilst he had pace he never had accuracy.....and not a lot of movement consistently either.

[CORNERED-TIGER]

zIWtyjXrHUo

you decide yourself what troubles the most.

[kkmix]

Well its both and another factor. Accuracy. Pace, movement and accuracy allied together is the toughest combination for even the best batsman. Remove one of those qualities and the better batsman will usually succeed. This is why Actor is not a great because whilst he had pace he never had accuracy.....and not a lot of movement consistently either.

Disagree ... Pace isn't important at all ... Examples are Mcgrath, Asif, Pollock, etc ... they didn't have pace, yet the quality batsmen found them difficult, and by no means succeeded against them ... I agree with you on 'Accuracy' part. Above mentioned players only really excelled at one thing, and that is accuracy.

[AZulfi]

^ Accuracy alone is not enough if you lack serious pace. All the examples you mentioned above were very good swing bowlers too. In McGrath's case height was also a factor. Other good examples are Ambrose and Garner who were both very tall and accurate and could swing the ball as well

[Amoeba]

I guess the point we all agree on is that you need a number of factors not just one. This is why Actor was outbowled by slower bowlers in his era because he didn't have much else.

[LegendsXI]

I guess the point we all agree on is that you need a number of factors not just one. This is why Actor was outbowled by slower bowlers in his era because he didn't have much else.

Can you back that up with stats?

[Amoeba]

Can you back that up with stats?

Yes the only stats that matter in the long run, and India have found to their cost, wickets. How many wickets did he take? The rest is mere noise.

[LegendsXI]

mat wkts avg SR
Tests 46 178 25.69 45.7
ODIs 163 247 24.97 31.4

[Amoeba]

178 test wickets. paltry return. Steyn has more and is only half way through his career.

[PerfectionPersonified]

yet another Akhtar bashing --can we leave him alone?

[LegendsXI]

178 test wickets. paltry return. Steyn has more and is only half way through his career.

Kaneria would end up with more whats ur point?

Cant believe someone like Zaid65 has a personal grudge against Afridi, whos stats would put bangladeshi all rounders too shame and he is ridiculed.

While this guy does the same with one of the best fast bowlers of the era, and its all good.

Hypocrisy at its best.

[Down2Earth]

yeah and harsha of all people would know about pace bowling.

[Amoeba]

This guy? What hypocrisy? Am I or anyone stopping anyone from 'ridiculing' me? Have I ever in the many years I have posted here told someone to shut up or stop posting? No that would be hypocrisy? You are welcome to your opinion....I am welcome to mine....it's a free board.

So stop acting like a big girl's blouse and bring it on if you want to. Quite frankly I'm too tired and the argument was won years ago. Only biased Pakistani fans cling onto Actor as some kind of great bowler. He wasn't....move on!

[LegendsXI]

This guy? What hypocrisy? Am I or anyone stopping anyone from 'ridiculing' me? Have I ever in the many years I have posted here told someone to shut up or stop posting? No that would be hypocrisy? You are welcome to your opinion....I am welcome to mine....it's a free board.

So stop acting like a big girl's blouse and bring it on if you want to. Quite frankly I'm too tired and the argument was won years ago. Only biased Pakistani fans cling onto Actor as some kind of great bowler. He wasn't....move on!

:))) Now if the argument has been won years ago, then theres nothing i can do about it now, can i?

I just posted the stats and thats it. You have anything else to add, then go ahead.

[ShaunMarshRules]

So stop acting like a big girl's blouse and bring it on if you want to. Quite frankly I'm too tired and the argument was won years ago. Only biased Pakistani fans cling onto Actor as some kind of great bowler. He wasn't....move on!

Shane Warne also rates Akhtar very highly. In his list of greatest cricketers, Akhtar is one of his top 8 fast bowlers. ahead of, among others, Kapil Dev, Waqar Younis and Steve Harmison.

That's a purely subjective opinion, of course. I think the best comparison of Shoaib would be to Vinod Kambli. Prodigious talent, and at his peaks, as good or better than any of the greats. He never maintained it for a long enough period to be a "true" great.

But on his form days, he would have pace, swing, accuracy - almost unplayable.

Disagree ... Pace isn't important at all ... Examples are Mcgrath, Asif, Pollock, etc ... they didn't have pace, yet the quality batsmen found them difficult, and by no means succeeded against them ... I agree with you on 'Accuracy' part. Above mentioned players only really excelled at one thing, and that is accuracy.

McGrath was a master. Simply amazing bowler for mine, and even successful on flat Asian pitches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K7TgkV8hQ8


150+ pace is not that important, agreed. But a bare minimum is required. McGrath would regularly be around 127-130 ks, and get the effort ball around 135 even near the end of his career. If he were a yard slower (*cough*Praveen *cough) he wouldn't have been as penetrative on good batting pitches. It needs to be just quick enough that the batsman can't adjust late for the movement.

[Sanchez]

I'd rate Akhtar somewhere between very good and a great. He simply didn't have the longevity & consistency to become a great.

[ninjafirstslip]

absolutley tosh...look at steyn and then say that again

[Liverpool_Faizan]

pace does not matter unless you are bowling 95+ these days.

even batsmen in local club teams can play 85 - 93 mph with ease if it is straight with no movement or seam.

[Itachi]

150+ pace is not that important, agreed. But a bare minimum is required. McGrath would regularly be around 127-130 ks, and get the effort ball around 135 even near the end of his career.

this. though amoeba (or harsha bhogle) haven't mentioned this, i think he already assumed this factor.

Accuracy, swing and minimum pace (a safe range will be 125+) is a great combo. Take out 1 of the factor out and you won't able to survive in international level in a long run.

[ninjafirstslip]

this. though amoeba (or harsha bhogle) haven't mentioned this, i think he already assumed this factor.

Accuracy, swing and minimum pace (a safe range will be 125+) is a great combo. Take out 1 of the factor out and you won't able to survive in international level in a long run.

totally agreed....if you get PK to speed up more consistently then you will have razzaq circa 2008 bowling- which was pretty good

[Monsee]

If Indians are so convinced about the argument i.e. swing and not pace is what is required to take wickets then:

- Why don't they play PK against a good batting team on Indian roads erm pitches and they will find out the truth?]

- Why was Kapil not so successful in later part of his career when he became a 120-125 KMH bowler; they are not really saying Kapil couldn't swing the ball?

- Why do they keep playing Lamboo who bowls around 135 KMH...why not drop him and play another PK like bowler?

- Why do they keep dreaming of finding a genuinely Phaast bowler?

- Why was Asif tured in to Canon fodder against SA in Pakistan when he was making a come back ad his speeds were consistently between 120-125 KMH?

When pitches are not swing friendly, you need that extra pace for sure

[James]

England fans, including me, tend to rate Akhtar highly. Even last year a lot of our players were a bit scared of facing him, and these are good players. We still took him for runs, but he is an X-factor player - that much is clear.

There have been better bowlers and we have a better one now in Steyn, who has bowled match-winning spells and taken 7-fers, 10-fers and such in pretty much every country including India - pretty much unheard of. However, in spite of the injury and attitude problems (which are genuine and plentiful), Akhtar's pace and occasional brilliance has given him some sort of legacy, and I can see why Pakistan fans get excited and consider him a great. He is of course not a great.

[1137moiz]

Love how Harsha Bhogle assumes that lack of pace automatically means you can swing it. Ishant rarely swings it--he very occasionally jags it in off the seam, but that's maybe once a game and surrounded by wholesale rubbish. Sreesanth is even worse, though he does swing it he mixes so much rubbish and is slow enough to dispatch. Praveen and Zaheer are the only competent swing bowlers and they're too slow anyway.

[Sledger]

Harsha should stick to writing overall summaries about Indian cricket's direction and/or the personalities of individual players. Has very little credibility when it comes to technical aspects of the game at the top level.

[1137moiz]

Harsha should stick to writing overall summaries about Indian cricket's direction and/or the personalities of individual players. Has very little credibility when it comes to technical aspects of the game at the top level.
Yep, a very limited and repetetive windbag. I've noticed most India commentators have a tendency to wax lyrical about the New India and the careers of their superstars but minimal technical knowledge

[KingKhanWC]

Pace obviously helps since the quicker the ball is coming at you the less time you have to see the line and length, it's foolish to argue otherwise. If McGrath and Asif could do what they did at 95mph they would have been ever more lethal.

Overhead conditions do matter, one thing Nasser is very wrong about.

[alberto]

amoeba has 1 valid point that akhtar was definently not a great bowler as many pakistani fans think.

[1137moiz]

Alberto no Akhtar wasn't a great bowler but he was a very good one and largely responsible for wrecking his own career

[Blitz]

Harsha Bhogle.

What in the world would you know about fast bowling?


Let me tell you about a correlation.


India has never had a fast bowler.

India has never had a bowler with average of under 28.


Theres a clue. You need pace :facepalm:

[alberto]

but if pace was everything then sami and tait are the world's best bowlers

[Random Aussie]

Generally need 2 of, pace, swing, seam, bounce, accurancy.

Ridiculous assertion by the way, express pace bothers every batsman, they don't like facing it, nobody does. Look at some of the footage of Tait bowling at top speed and you tell me the batsmen were enjoying it.

But it is a very rare express bowler who can maintain enough accuracy to not go for heaps against world class batsmen. And in general, if you had to have either pace or movement movement is more likely to cause trouble.

Incidentally, it also needs to be late movement against good batters. Hilfenhaus can move every delivery away from the right hander but too early to bother them.