Butt unhappy with ICC selection

[nabeel_1990]

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/190506/butt-unhappy-icc-selection.html


Butt unhappy with ICC selection
London, Sept 12, DHNS:

Pakistan Cricket Board chairman Ijaz Butt questioned the selection of the ICC ODI team of the year that has just one Pakistani player in paceman Umar Gul.

The 12-man squad, led by MS Dhoni, has four Indians, three Sri Lankans, two South Africans and one each from Australia, England and Pakistan. “Clive (Lloyd), I have a question,” said Butt raising his hand when the emcee of the function Mark Nocholas threw the floor open for a media interaction. “I just see one player from Pakistan, (but) some of the boys really did pretty well and they deserve your consideration,” he went on to add.

Lloyd, the head of selection panel, appeared to have been caught off-guard by Butt’s poser. “We had discussions about that,” the West Indian great started. “When you are picking a side you are looking at the balance. We did not want to have an overload of spinners or quicks. I agree with you. There were not a lot of great performances. They were consistent but not tremendously great performances,” he observed.

Asked about the omission of the likes of Sachin Tendulkar and Gautam Gambhir, Lloyd said: “There were a lot of people on the selection panel. Sachin Tendulkar is well and truly what you call a batting god and it is very difficult to leave him but when you look at some of the players (picked ahead of him) they have done reasonably well, they had done better than him.”

‘Let India play us first’

Butt, meanwhile, wanted India to play Pakistan in any of the neutral venues suggested by the PCB. “If they play against us what is due according to the ICC Future Tour Programme, then we will definitely come,” he said referring to Pakistan’s scheduled tour of India next year.

“We have already conveyed them (BCCI) about venues like Malaysia, Sri Lanka or UAE. We have given them a number of options but they are yet to get back to us. Unless they play in a Pakistan-hosted series, we won’t play in India.”

[Sunny786]

I think ijaz was right in saying that India should play Pakistan at a neutral venue or forget about us touring India. They can go play Sri Lanka for all i care.

[akheR]

Ijaz Butt... :facepalm:


the smiley says it all, really. :ibutt

[Sherlock]

Apart from maybe Ajmal, I can't see anyone else who could've been chosen in the XI.

[Down2Earth]

geo ijaz butt :ibutt

[sully3]

Loose Canon on a rampage

[MVP26]

:ibutt is right

[Sledger]

I hope they recorded this for the televised highlights.

You can just imagine this old guy going on a rant with the microphone and see other members of the crowd

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110818110121/glee/images/1/13/FacePalmMercedes.gifing.

[KingKhanWC]

I agree with the old man for once. Afridi and Ajmal could have easily made the selection ahead of some others.

Butt is desperate to sort out an Pak - India series, he needs to stop. When India are ready to place us they will let us know.

[Saqs]

Good to see him stick up for his players.

Although very lolworthy (and praiseworthy the same) platform to raise it.

[chacha kashmiri]

For a moment i thought it was referring to salman butt

Pakistan could always host their own icc awards ceremony, add a bit of glitz to it and invite a comedian to host it.

[Genghis]

Ajmal should have really been in that squad. Clearly the best limitted overs spinner at the moment.

[Buffet]

This guys knows no limit. Do something good for Pakistan cricket rather than wasting time on who gets selected for this non-playing eleven.

Apart from Ajmal no one else wold have come close to getting selected. On other hand Gul got selected ahead of Malinga, so it evens out in my opinion.

[Afridirocks]

Afridi should have been in ODI team of the year

[Buffet]

Afridi should have been in ODI team of the year

If Pakistani team had taken the catches of Afridi bowling against Indian then I think he would have much stronger case.

He bowled very well and got lots of wickets but I think getting majority of wickets against minnows might have gone against him.

[Ryankhan]

Apart from maybe Ajmal, I can't see anyone else who could've been chosen in the XI.

AJMAL n Afridi with ease should have been in the 11.

This year it has been very Biased Awards

How can Ajmal miss out the bowler of the year award?he has more wkts then steyn and he has been consistent.

same goes for Amla?????

then how the hell did Afridi didnt ended up not winning a award?

he took a fallen team and made them somthing to be proud of??????

Bishoo getting the award over Riaz is pure crap??? how many games Bishoo won for his side and how many games he played?
Riaz has done a lot better then bishoo.

[CORNERED-TIGER]

Apart from maybe Ajmal, I can't see anyone else who could've been chosen in the XI.

Afridi?

world cup joint leading wicket taker

:afridi

[CORNERED-TIGER]

If Pakistani team had taken the catches of Afridi bowling against Indian then I think he would have much stronger case.

He bowled very well and got lots of wickets but I think getting majority of wickets against minnows might have gone against him.

:yk:yk:yk:yk

glen mcgrath took 7/14 vs namabia in 2003 world cup:wahab

sachin tendulkar made 152 vs namabia in 2003

just few examples

zaheer khan took how many cheap wickets in 2011 world cup vs ireland or bangaldesh?

[James]

Ajmal should have really been in that squad. Clearly the best limitted overs spinner at the moment.

'Clearly' to who? You? Last time I checked Graeme Swann was ranked the number one ODI bowler in the world.

[shahrukh619]

Ajmal and Hafeez should had been selected. Hafeez is better then Afridi, Afridi someone who can't bat is a waste.....

[dinakar]

zaheer khan took how many cheap wickets in 2011 world cup vs ireland or bangaldesh?

Answer for you..

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/stats/engine/player/42639.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;op position=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5; opposition=6;opposition=8;orderby=dis_dismissals;s eries=4857;template=results;type=bowling;view=bats man_summary

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30102.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;op position=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5; opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=dis_dismissals;s eries=4857;template=results;type=bowling;view=bats man_summary

[CORNERED-TIGER]

Answer for you..

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/stats/engine/player/42639.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;op position=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5; opposition=6;opposition=8;orderby=dis_dismissals;s eries=4857;template=results;type=bowling;view=bats man_summary

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30102.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;op position=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5; opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=dis_dismissals;s eries=4857;template=results;type=bowling;view=bats man_summary

Thanks

and zaheer performance in three big games he failed i think

q final vs australia
semi final vs pk
final vs lanka

[dinakar]

Thanks

and zaheer performance in three big games he failed i think

q final vs australia
semi final vs pk
final vs lanka
hmm.. not quite. he struck at some crucial points of the match though gone for some runs.

[James]

I heard that Giles Clarke stood up and complained after the announcement of the team which had one Englishman in it. Oops no he didn't because he isn't a moron.

[Amjid Javed]

Butt is spot on here, we should have had more players selected for the ODI series.

[Amjid Javed]

I heard that Giles Clarke stood up and complained after the announcement of the team which had one Englishman in it. Oops no he didn't because he isn't a moron.

Which english men is that? I had most off the nominations were south african ;)

[shahrukh619]

Butt was right here. Ajmal has been doing better then Swan and Hafeez has been a ery goodallrounder, why ignored them?? Ijazz Butt was right to question why many of the top performers from Pakistan were being left out from the ODI team of the year

[malakian]

Does anyone actually care? Everyone knows the ICC don't have a clue.

[malakian]

Ajmal should have really been in that squad. Clearly the best limitted overs spinner at the moment.

No he's not.

[deviously~fading~away]

Apart from maybe Ajmal, I can't see anyone else who could've been chosen in the XI.
How about the leading wicket taker in the world cup? Afridi?

[Derek Randall]

Ajmal should have really been in that squad. Clearly the best limitted overs spinner at the moment.

If they has a choice between Ajmal and Swann I wonder who every o9ther cricketing nation would pick .Taking all biasedness out of it .
Thinking aside I wonder who Pak would pick

[James]

I've yet to see a pundit or writer rate Ajmal above Swann - and for every one there might be, there will be five that prefer Swann. The Ajmal band seems to consist of a few Pakistan fans and Tendulkar obsessives, hardly a credible sample. Thing is there's a difference between having more variations and actually being a better bowler.

[CORNERED-TIGER]

I've yet to see a pundit or writer rate Ajmal above Swann - and for every one there might be, there will be five that prefer Swann. The Ajmal band seems to consist of a few Pakistan fans and Tendulkar obsessives, hardly a credible sample. Thing is there's a difference between having more variations and actually being a better bowler.

When pakistan had imran khan england always use 2 cry that botham is better:asadrauf

when pakistan has the two Ws english media and people use 2 cry as to how these two get reverse swing:razzaq

since wining the ashes in 2005 with massive reverse swing english have stopped talking oh is it coz our own boys are good at it now:junaid

when pakistan had abdul qadir english thugs use cry about lbws:asif

so the end result is the english mind set is..

:raza:raza:raza:raza

pakistanis cant be better then english:junaid

[James]

so the end result is the english mind set is..

:raza:raza:raza:raza

pakistanis cant be better then english:junaid

A mishap I see on the Internet daily is the usage of the English tabloid media to represent the population. It's insulting to be honest.

The majority of the English fanbase is pretty laid-back - it has a huge respect for Pakistani bowling and will pay to watch it.

There is currently overwhelming evidence to suggest that Swann is the number one spinner in the world and not much in favour of anyone else.

[deviously~fading~away]

Does anyone actually care? Everyone knows the ICC don't have a clue.
But I am for once proud of Butt to stand up & speak his mind. Nothing wrong with the question he asked. Don't know why some PPers have this slave mentality. Their is nothing wrong in standing up & getting your point across. Afridi & Ajmal should have been in the ODI team. Many can disagree with that & it's their right but me voicing that is perfectly alright.

[CORNERED-TIGER]

A mishap I see on the Internet daily is the usage of the English tabloid media to represent the population. It's insulting to be honest.

The majority of the English fanbase is pretty laid-back - it has a huge respect for Pakistani bowling and will pay to watch it.

There is currently overwhelming evidence to suggest that Swann is the number one spinner in the world and not much in favour of anyone else.

right i know but hahahahahahahahahaah

it was fun when wasim n waqar use 2 swing it mile and news papers and some players from england side hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahaahaahahhah ahahahahahha:junaid:junaid:junaid

as for swann he is good but aint that special.. as some are suggesting.

poor old ajmal yet 2 play single test in home then his own record would have looked better :D

[James]

Yeah brilliant...

[Amjid Javed]

I've yet to see a pundit or writer rate Ajmal above Swann - and for every one there might be, there will be five that prefer Swann. The Ajmal band seems to consist of a few Pakistan fans and Tendulkar obsessives, hardly a credible sample. Thing is there's a difference between having more variations and actually being a better bowler.

Strange that alot off the england commentators were raving on about how good ajmal was last summer then when he was bowling.

Will see how good swann is in the subcontinent when england go to play Pakistan and Sri lanka.

[James]

At no point did these pundits say 'this means Ajmal is the best!' because it was only a few performances, and they are not daft enough to toy with that pitfall. Of course Ajmal's good, but has he achieved and proven anything near to what Swann has? The general answer would be no.

[malakian]

But I am for once proud of Butt to stand up & speak his mind. Nothing wrong with the question he asked. Don't know why some PPers have this slave mentality. Their is nothing wrong in standing up & getting your point across. Afridi & Ajmal should have been in the ODI team. Many can disagree with that & it's their right but me voicing that is perfectly alright.

Afridi perhaps. Ajmal no way, Swann is better. Personally i thought Ian Bell being omitted from the test team of the year was a joke, but he was, and that's just the way it is.

I think that certain people are on pakpassion are bitter that England have a better spinner than anyone from the subcontinent. The same kind of stuff is being posted in the recent Steve Finn thread, they don't seem to be able to comprehend that a pom might be able to bowl fast.

This is our time now.

[MR__KHAN__JI]

In tests...

Swann>>>> Ajmal

IN T20 and ODI

Ajmal >> Swann

[James]

In tests...

Swann>>>> Ajmal

IN T20 and ODI

Ajmal >> Swann

Tests is Swann. He has achieved and proven so much more than Ajmal in this format.

T20s seems about equal.

Swann has the better record in ODIs and is ranked as the number one bowler in the world in this format.

Currently an open-and-shut affair to be honest.

The case can be re-examined in six months or so, when we have seen more cricket.

[CORNERED-TIGER]

Home & Away

Home .......

Swann

Away.......

Ajmal

Neutral Venue

Ajmal

[malakian]

In tests...

Swann>>>> Ajmal

IN T20 and ODI

Ajmal >> Swann

The rankings would suggest otherwise.

[Poison]

Boycott the ICC :ibutt

[Amjid Javed]

At no point did these pundits say 'this means Ajmal is the best!' because it was only a few performances, and they are not daft enough to toy with that pitfall. Of course Ajmal's good, but has he achieved and proven anything near to what Swann has? The general answer would be no.

Please enlighten me to as to what Swann has actually achieved?

Averaging 40 against India and Australia and 30 against South Africa. Probably the 3 strongest batting sides in world barring england.

Sorry but swann has proved jack diddly squat! apart from running through poor batting sides. Pakistan will have a full strength batting line up this winter and swann has to go to Sri lanka as well.

I think uve become like Botham and Vaughan. Getting a little ahead off yourselves on some players and the england team.

Dont get me wrong you deserve to be number 1 right now and swanns a good bowler. But england and swann are far from fully proven in regards to being the best in all conditions and against all comers.

[malakian]

Please enlighten me to as to what Swann has actually achieved?

Averaging 40 against India and Australia and 30 against South Africa. Probably the 3 strongest batting sides in world barring england.

Sorry but swann has proved jack diddly squat! apart from running through poor batting sides. Pakistan will have a full strength batting line up this winter and swann has to go to Sri lanka as well.

I think uve become like Botham and Vaughan. Getting a little ahead off yourselves on some players and the england team.

Dont get me wrong you deserve to be number 1 right now and swanns a good bowler. But england and swann are far from fully proven in regards to being the best in all conditions and against all comers.

What's he achieved?

Graeme Swann, ranked the #3 test bowler in the world, ranked the #1 ODI bowler in the world.

You don't attain those rankings by being rubbish. When Ajmal overtakes Swann in either category then we can talk.

[James]

Averaging 30 in South Africa with a big haul of wickets is an achievement in a batsman's era. South Africa is the spinner's graveyard. Why do you think they haven't produced a world-class spinner in 120 years of playing test cricket? You need to broaden your horizons on this subject a little.

His performances against Australia have actually been darn good at times. Taken 4-fers and 5-fers against them in crunch situations and England have won every time. Lord's, the Oval, Adelaide. Swann turns up and England win. Having an impact in home and away test matches against Australia is a very rare achievement for a conventional off-spinner. The 40 average is deceptive.

Even against India he took a big haul in the Oval test match and troubled all of the vaunted players in their lineup at some point, which no spinner since Mendis has done either in a standalone test or on a wider scale.

Swann has earned whatever praise he receives. His statistical record across the three formats is phenomenal when put into context, and the effect he has when on the cricket field is plain to see. He has been ranked amongst the top bowlers in the world in both of the major forms of the game for a long time now, and currently sits at the very top of the ODI league. Clearly, he is not only capable of brilliance but solid and consistent too.

Your repetitive complaints about England and English fans - and when I say repetitive, I refer to the kind of things you've literally been saying for years when any facet of English cricket dares to push a boundary or two - do nothing to discredit the reality of the situation that Swann and England find themselves in, which is a very healthy one.

[Derek Randall]

What's he achieved?

Graeme Swann, ranked the #3 test bowler in the world, ranked the #1 ODI bowler in the world.

You don't attain those rankings by being rubbish. When Ajmal overtakes Swann in either category then we can talk.


.Apart from the fact Swann takes more wickets scores more runs and is a better fielder its clear to everyone that Ajmal is better

I forgot Swann also wins more matches for his team but Ajmal is still better

[malakian]

.Apart from the fact Swann takes more wickets scores more runs and is a better fielder its clear to everyone that Ajmal is better

Yup, he has a doosra, he MUST be better.

[Amjid Javed]

What's he achieved?

Graeme Swann, ranked the #3 test bowler in the world, ranked the #1 ODI bowler in the world.

You don't attain those rankings by being rubbish. When Ajmal overtakes Swann in either category then we can talk.

Rankings, rankings!

India were ranked number 1 side in the world! What was that worth this summer? Jack sqautt!

Also do the ranking show any sort of weighting in regards to oppostion being played against, rank of batsmen being played against? I doubt it!

[James]

I will only say that I have seen reams of convincing arguments as to why Swann is the superior cricketer - I could quite easily construct one myself - and not a single one in favour of Ajmal that came close to convincing me. I would happily be proven wrong if somebody else wants to have a go.

[James]

Rankings, rankings!

India were ranked number 1 side in the world! What was that worth this summer? Jack sqautt!

Also do the ranking show any sort of weighting in regards to oppostion being played against, rank of batsmen being played against? I doubt it!

So being ranked in the top three bowlers in the world in both formats for a long time means absolutely nothing. Right.

There are flaws in the ICC rankings, but disregarding them completely is a foolish move - one which is representational of the half-points you're struggling to push in this thread.

[Derek Randall]

Rankings, rankings!

India were ranked number 1 side in the world! What was that worth this summer? Jack sqautt!

Also do the ranking show any sort of weighting in regards to oppostion being played against, rank of batsmen being played against? I doubt it!

You are right Swann has never played against a decent team whereas Ajmal does nothing but play against the best

[James]

Didn't Saeed Ajmal get to number four in the ODI rankings by not playing in most of the World Cup games, and taking wickets against West Indies and Zimbabwe? Is that the level of credibility which is supposed to dwarf Graeme Swann? Starting to worry for my own sanity a little at this stage.

[malakian]

Rankings, rankings!

India were ranked number 1 side in the world! What was that worth this summer? Jack sqautt!

Also do the ranking show any sort of weighting in regards to oppostion being played against, rank of batsmen being played against? I doubt it!

India were and still are a decent team, and are still probably second or third best in the world. It just happens that this England side has moved on to another level & the rankings now reflect that.

[Amjid Javed]

Averaging 30 in South Africa with a big haul of wickets is an achievement in a batsman's era. South Africa is the spinner's graveyard. Why do you think they haven't produced a world-class spinner in 120 years of playing test cricket? You need to broaden your horizons on this subject a little.

His performances against Australia have actually been darn good at times. Taken 4-fers and 5-fers against them in crunch situations and England have won every time. Lord's, the Oval, Adelaide. Swann turns up and England win. Having an impact in home and away test matches against Australia is a very rare achievement for a conventional off-spinner. The 40 average is deceptive.

Even against India he took a big haul in the Oval test match and troubled all of the vaunted players in their lineup at some point, which no spinner since Mendis has done either in a standalone test or on a wider scale.

Swann has earned whatever praise he receives. His statistical record across the three formats is phenomenal when put into context, and the effect he has when on the cricket field is plain to see. He has been ranked amongst the top bowlers in the world in both of the major forms of the game for a long time now, and currently sits at the very top of the ODI league. Clearly, he is not only capable of brilliance but solid and consistent too.

Your repetitive complaints about England and English fans - and when I say repetitive, I refer to the kind of things you've literally been saying for years when any facet of English cricket dares to push a boundary or two - do nothing to discredit the reality of the situation that Swann and England find themselves in, which is a very healthy one.

1) Yes i am aware South Africa is a difficult place for spinners to bowl, but doesnt mean spinners cant win tests for their team there. Mushy, Warne and even Harbi manage to do that as a feat.

2) Swann steps up to the mark when conditions allow. No shock Oval and adelaide are on the list. Both are pretty much spin friendly surfaces these days.

3) Swann stats are there to see, Yes but when you look at them further they give you a different picture. Yes a very good cricketer but dont harp on about him likes hes warne/Murali.

4) Discredit England? I did the same to India! Am sorry but being ranked number 1 basically due to hammering everyone at home is good, but what abaout proving urself on the road.

India were found wanting when they leave India and Englands record outside off england aint exactly something to harp on about.

Series defeats on recent last visits to W.I, Pak, India and Sri lanka.

Look at great Aussies/W.I sides and they did the buisness home and away. When england prove themselves in Asia able to compete and possibly able to win a test match il give some credit.

You can happily bump this thread up after englands tour to Pakistan/Sri lanka if u win and swann is the star!

Il give credits where its due. Until then il keep my opinion on poor batting team bashing spinners and Home Track bullies.

[malakian]

The thing is though, no English fans on here are claiming that Swann is the next Warne/Murali. We're just saying that at the moment Swann is the best spinner around. When/if Ajmal overtakes him, I'm sure Whippy et all will give him the credit.

[Amjid Javed]

I will only say that I have seen reams of convincing arguments as to why Swann is the superior cricketer - I could quite easily construct one myself - and not a single one in favour of Ajmal that came close to convincing me. I would happily be proven wrong if somebody else wants to have a go.

The choice of team of year is based on that! This year? or you not able to grasp that!

Ajmals performances in ODIs have been alot more meaningful this year then swanns. Thats the point any pakistan is make! Try and comprehend. Rather then getting upset. No is taking about long term etc...

[Amjid Javed]

The thing is though, no English fans on here are claiming that Swann is the next Warne/Murali. We're just saying that at the moment Swann is the best spinner around. When/if Ajmal overtakes him, I'm sure Whippy et all will give him the credit.

The discussion isnt about who the best spinner around is overall. Its about selection based on a team over last year!

If it was an ICC best ever team right now am sure likes of sachin, kallis etc.. would have been picked.

I think some fans need to get some context about what is being discussed here.

[Amjid Javed]

India were and still are a decent team, and are still probably second or third best in the world. It just happens that this England side has moved on to another level & the rankings now reflect that.

How have england moved another level? By hammering everyone at home?

Isnt that what India do?

Why dont you show me both teams home records v Away records (Last series played) i think you will find both teams are proven strong at home and decent at best on the road.

Another level for england would be going to Asia and dominating like they did in the Ashes in Australia.

Just like steve waughs might aussies, they werent full proven till they showed there worth in Asia!

Why should england be any different. India are mocked for been Home tracj bullies, so why should england be looked at any different?

[malakian]

How have england moved another level? By hammering everyone at home?

Isnt that what India do?

Why dont you show me both teams home records v Away records (Last series played) i think you will find both teams are proven strong at home and decent at best on the road.

Another level for england would be going to Asia and dominating like they did in the Ashes in Australia.

Just like steve waughs might aussies, they werent full proven till they showed there worth in Asia!

Why should england be any different. India are mocked for been Home tracj bullies, so why should england be looked at any different?

Reasonable points & i agree that until we tour Asia then questions will be asked. But it seems like you're happy to dismiss England's achievements purely because we haven't done well in Asia in the past. If we get hammered, the rankings will reflect that & I'll be eating some humble pie.

However in the past year or so, England have looked the premier side in test cricket. People on here mocked me when i predicted a clean sweep by England this summer.

[James]

1) Yes i am aware South Africa is a difficult place for spinners to bowl, but doesnt mean spinners cant win tests for their team there. Mushy, Warne and even Harbi manage to do that as a feat.

2) Swann steps up to the mark when conditions allow. No shock Oval and adelaide are on the list. Both are pretty much spin friendly surfaces these days.

3) Swann stats are there to see, Yes but when you look at them further they give you a different picture. Yes a very good cricketer but dont harp on about him likes hes warne/Murali.

4) Discredit England? I did the same to India! Am sorry but being ranked number 1 basically due to hammering everyone at home is good, but what abaout proving urself on the road.

India were found wanting when they leave India and Englands record outside off england aint exactly something to harp on about.

Series defeats on recent last visits to W.I, Pak, India and Sri lanka.

Look at great Aussies/W.I sides and they did the buisness home and away. When england prove themselves in Asia able to compete and possibly able to win a test match il give some credit.

You can happily bump this thread up after englands tour to Pakistan/Sri lanka if u win and swann is the star!

Il give credits where its due. Until then il keep my opinion on poor batting team bashing spinners and Home Track bullies.

Did you watch the test in Durban that we won by an innings? Swann was a big part of one of England's greatest recent overseas test wins, and had a significant hand in the series overall. You simply cannot use that series in SA to discredit him as you tried to above.

What spinner or indeed bowler doesn't step up to the plate more than usual when conditions are in his favour? A top bowler does a job when conditions are not in his favour, and lets rip when they are. That's what being a test match bowler is. That's what Swann has been doing for three years.

When did I put him in the same bracket as Warne and Murali?

Why shouldn't fans get excited about their teams and players being ranked highly? Besides, home success is underrated. The reason South African cannot top the rankings at the moment is because of their inconsistent home record.

If you want my opinion on your opinion, the lack of credit you give to England's consistent success is pretty classless to be honest. And your trumpeting about how rubbish we'll do next season against your own team is simply perpetuating the so-called arrogant Englishness you're always going on about.

I'm not much of a thread bumper. We can only discuss the current moment and the evidence available. It doesn't make me or you better or worse if the climate has changed in a year's time.

[James]

The selection of the team goes back further than this calendar year - Swann featured heavily in a certain ODI series this time last year, didn't he?

[James]

How have england moved another level? By hammering everyone at home?

Isnt that what India do?

Why dont you show me both teams home records v Away records (Last series played) i think you will find both teams are proven strong at home and decent at best on the road.

Another level for england would be going to Asia and dominating like they did in the Ashes in Australia.

Just like steve waughs might aussies, they werent full proven till they showed there worth in Asia!

Why should england be any different. India are mocked for been Home tracj bullies, so why should england be looked at any different?

I don't actually think that England '11 have moved onto another level in comparison to India '08-'10. What England are is the number one ranked team because they have beaten pretty much everyone at some point. Since Flower was appointed officially, they've won eight and tied one test series. Most of their victories in the last year have also come by an innings. They're clearly deserving of their rank and it's about time you stopped sounding so embittered.

[Amjid Javed]

If you want my opinion on your opinion, the lack of credit you give to England's consistent success is pretty classless to be honest. And your trumpeting about how rubbish we'll do next season against your own team is simply perpetuating the so-called arrogant Englishness you're always going on about.


Ive applauded england for the series wins, just like India. However why should i offer more then that? Just like shastri, manjrekar etc.. were harping on about how special this Indian team is after they reached number 1 in rankings, we get the same from botham, vaughan etc.. as well.

Based on what? am sorry but yapping on like these experts do like there teams the dogs ******** when they havent proven themselves fully doesnt wash with me! Like ive said If you win in UAE and SL you will get the credit you deserve and more acknowledgement. Until then il be honest i dont not rate this england team 100% just like i did with India. So please dont think am singling out England here.

Just like 10 years ago i continously said Aussies had to prove themselves in Asia to be an all conquering great! so why should criteria be any different for england or India!

Like you am a frank yorkshiremen who tells it like i see it! regardless of whose feathers i ruffle!

[James]

Ive applauded england for the series wins, just like India. However why should i offer more then that? Just like shastri, manjrekar etc.. were harping on about how special this Indian team is after they reached number 1 in rankings, we get the same from botham, vaughan etc.. as well.

Based on what? am sorry but yapping on like these experts do like there teams the dogs ******** when they havent proven themselves fully doesnt wash with me! Like ive said If you win in UAE and SL you will get the credit you deserve and more acknowledgement. Until then il be honest i dont not rate this england team 100% just like i did with India. So please dont think am singling out England here.

Just like 10 years ago i continously said Aussies had to prove themselves in Asia to be an all conquering great! so why should criteria be any different for england or India!

Like you am a frank yorkshiremen who tells it like i see it! regardless of whose feathers i ruffle!

I actually wouldn't mind your opinion of the English cricket setup if you didn't behave in a manner that you would criticise the English for.

'You lot are arrogant and have proven nothing in the UAE - and despite Pakistan's equally nothing record in the UAE, we will smash you because we are great'

Isn't that a bit hypocritical? (something us Yorkshire dwellers are also prone to being ;-) )

[Amjid Javed]

I don't actually think that England '11 have moved onto another level in comparison to India '08-'10. What England are is the number one ranked team because they have beaten pretty much everyone at some point. Since Flower was appointed officially, they've won eight and tied one test series. Most of their victories in the last year have also come by an innings. They're clearly deserving of their rank and it's about time you stopped sounding so embittered.

Yes you have beaten everyone at some point? Mainly at home you mean?

No series win in SL (Last two visits), No win in Pak (Last visit) and lost to South Africa (At home in UK in last series)

Shock horror! these are next three series england play! So they can prove themselves in Asia and possibly rectify their ownly blemish at home over last 4/5 years!

Then and only then will i take this england team serious!

[James]

Like I said above, home success is underrated. Winning a test series anywhere is tough.

SA and Oz are not number one because they have recently not been meeting expectations at home.

India and then England have been number one teams because they developed fortresses at home and went against the grain by looking to improve their results abroad.

[Amjid Javed]

I actually wouldn't mind your opinion of the English cricket setup if you didn't behave in a manner that you would criticise the English for.

'You lot are arrogant and have proven nothing in the UAE - and despite Pakistan's equally nothing record in the UAE, we will smash you because we are great'

Isn't that a bit hypocritical? (something us Yorkshire dwellers are also prone to being ;-) )

Last time i looked on PP i didnt see any Pakistan fans proclaiming our team as world beaters or fully proven. We are a team transitioning and slowly improving. Just like you find my comments a little hurtful. I find botham, vaughans comments hurtful and disrespectful where they make out england just need to turn up anywhere and will hammer anyone!

Yeah pakistan havent proven anything, but we aint going to roll over and die when england turn up! Conditions will be just like they were at Oval last year and conditions to suit us so that levels the playing field against a superior side!

[James]

So your cheerleading is a reaction to Botham and Vaughan, who most people pay minimal attention to anyway?

It's going to be a tough season for England and could go either way. Most England fans on PP have said this, haven't they?

Be fair.

[Legal Eye]

Sometimes my fellow Pakistanis (Butt and PPers) can be an embarrassment.

I'd like to ask Butt to name the players who our players should take the place of?

and some on here suggesting Ajmal is better than Swann? Please. I like Ajmal's feisty character, his variations and his guts. And I am glad he is in our side. But Swann is a better bowler (in all formats), is a better batter and superb fielder. I'd say every single test side would take him given the chance. Having said that, all bar England would take Ajmal, but that is besides the point. Swann is one of the best all round cricketers in the world right now, so let's no embarrass ourselves by pretending he isn't.

[Legal Eye]

I find botham, vaughans comments hurtful and disrespectful where they make out england just need to turn up anywhere and will hammer anyone!


You find that hurtful? Seriously?

[Amjid Javed]

Sometimes my fellow Pakistanis (Butt and PPers) can be an embarrassment.

I'd like to ask Butt to name the players who our players should take the place of?

and some on here suggesting Ajmal is better than Swann? Please. I like Ajmal's feisty character, his variations and his guts. And I am glad he is in our side. But Swann is a better bowler (in all formats), is a better batter and superb fielder. I'd say every single test side would take him given the chance. Having said that, all bar England would take Ajmal, but that is besides the point. Swann is one of the best all round cricketers in the world right now, so let's no embarrass ourselves by pretending he isn't.

I find your post an embarrassment. The selection was based on team off the year for ODIs?

So whats test, fielding, batting go tot do with it? So only one fooling themselves is you.

Ajmals been a pivitol perform for pakistan under the criteria which was set so for the Year! in ODIs yes Ajmal is better!

If it was a purely whose the best ODI team dont you think sachin and few others would have been selected! The fact we got to semi-finals off world cup and have done decently in ODIs otherwise suggests we merit more then 1 selection in ODIs!

[Legal Eye]

It's based on an entire year, why are people focussing so much on one competition?

Ajmal is good, very very good. But Swann is better, I am not sure there is really more to debate. the stats prove it. The match winning performances prove it.

Someone once said Newcastle United are a big club only in Newcastle. Saeed Ajmal is only better than Swann in the head of some Pakistanis.

Green tinted glasses gone mad.

[Cricket_MN]

Some one should tell this piece of garbage (Butt) that first he should start selecting deserving player into the Pakistani side and then if those deserving players are not selected then ask ICC question.

[velu]

:facepalm: For serious Ajaml vs Swann discussion move to, :Gotham Cronie

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=135550
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=103676

i dont want to get into who is a better spinner.
But as a package Swann is miles ahead.
Swann is more than a decent batsmen and he is English so he will field better .

[CORNERED-TIGER]

It's based on an entire year, why are people focussing so much on one competition?

Ajmal is good, very very good. But Swann is better, I am not sure there is really more to debate. the stats prove it. The match winning performances prove it.

Someone once said Newcastle United are a big club only in Newcastle. Saeed Ajmal is only better than Swann in the head of some Pakistanis.

Green tinted glasses gone mad.

there are many who got selected on one series in the past and this time around aswel

examples ashes players or few who had decent world cup:junaid

first check it big fella

[Ruri]

Swann and Ajmal both had low averages. Ajmal 20, Swann 22. Swan had 3 more wickets in the same number of matches. ICC claims they look at opposition. 16/29 of Ahmal's wickets were from minnows in the ODI game, Ireland, Windies, Canada. 7/32 against WI, Ireland Bangla for Swann. Close call, but on top of that, Swann fields and he bats. Swann better overall? Simple.

To the poster above asking: He did not win a bowler of the year award because there is none. for either tests or ODIs, and would not have qualified for the tests anyways.

[PakFan2010]

Swann got smashed vs India.

Ajmal owns India all the time

[Sledger]

I would have picked Swann but interestingly, Ajmal has averaged 24 against non-minnows (all away games). Swann has played far fewer such games but averaged 81 in away games against non-minnows.

[praveen]

Both Swann and Ajmal are excellent ODI bowlers. I would pick Ajmal because ODI requires variety as batsmen tend to be innovative most of the times. Stock deliveries may not always work.

In tests, i would not even consider this a contest. Swann is miles ahead of Ajmal.

[Pk-zindabaad]

BUTTI is right for once !

[rhussain33]

Amla, Watson, Kallis, Tendulkar, Dhoni, Hussey, Afridi, Steyn, Gul, Malinga, Ajmal

[chacha kashmiri]

Ajmal needs to play a few more years with worcestershire and become an england coach before he's truly rated

[Buffet]

India were and still are a decent team, and are still probably second or third best in the world. It just happens that this England side has moved on to another level & the rankings now reflect that.

I am not so sure about that. Another level example would be Australia bowling out Pakistan in desert for 50 odd runs in both innings in same test. Let's see what England does there?