Golden Age under the Mahdi (RA) and the Prophet Isa (AS)

[MalikMohsin]

THE GOLDEN AGE THAT WILL BE ENJOYED IN THE TIME OF THE PROPHET JESUS (AS) AND HAZRAT MAHDI (RA)

It is revealed in many of the hadiths reported from our Prophet (saas) that once the Prophet Jesus (as) and Hazrat Mahdi (as) have eradicated the intellectual system of the antichrist, a holy time in which, by Allah’s leave, Qur’anic moral values rule the whole world will be experienced. According to the information contained in the hadiths, this period, known as the Golden Age, will last for more than half a century and will resemble the Age of Bliss experienced during the time of our Prophet (saas). The reason why this age will be known as Golden is that our Prophet (saas) has described it as having similar features to Paradise. By Allah’s leave, it will contain all the conditions necessary for people to be able to live in peace and security. All forms of corruption, disorder and trouble experienced during the first stages of the End Times will come to an end, together with the strings of great disasters, wars and suffering. The degeneration, spiritual emptiness and moral corruption caused by philosophical systems that deny Allah will give way to an age which all believers have longed for over a period of hundreds of years, when Qur’anic moral values rule the world. Our Lord will rescue all mankind from the terrible disorder of the End Times and bestow on them the blessing of plenty, abundance and justice.

The matchless nature of the blessings that will be enjoyed in the time of Hazrat Mahdi (as) during the Golden Age is described in great detail in the hadiths. According to these, the Golden Age will be a time of great plenty and abundance, wealth and well-being. The needy will be given many times more than they require, nothing will be counted out or measured, and there will be not the slightest difficulty, poverty or hunger. All the wealth in the Earth will be brought forth, and more products will be obtained from the soil than ever before.

Some of the hadiths that impart the glad tidings of this plenty and abundance that will be experienced in the Golden Age read as follows:

Hazrat Mahdi (as)will come among my community. His life span will be seven years if short, or eight, or nine years. In his time my community, the good and bad, will be blessed with incomparable blessings, the sky will cause plentiful rain to fall and the earth will hold nothing back. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 9)

Ibn Abi Shayba, says in his book the Musannaf that Abu Sa’id al-Khudri related that the Messenger of Allah (saas) said: Hazrat Mahdi (as)will come from my community. If his life span is extended or shortened, his reign will last for seven, or eight or nine years. And he will fill the world, previously full of oppression, with justice. The sky will send down rain, the earth will bring forth abundance, and the community will prosper in his time as never before. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 9)

The earth will cast forth the treasures inside it.(Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi `Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, p. 45)

... The earth will cast forth all the riches hidden in it in the form of ingots of gold and silver. (Al-Sharani, Mukhtasar Tazkirah al-Qurtubi, p. 464)

People will reap seven hundred measures of wheat when they sow one measure… A man will sow a few handfuls of seed and reap 700… Although much rain falls, not a drop will be wasted. (Al-Barzanji, Al-Isha'ah li-ashrat al-sa'ah, p. 164; Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 24)

In addition, the moral degeneration and injustices present in society will be eliminated in the Golden Age. There will be an end to rampant theft, fraud, cheating, neglect of the needy and injustices such as only a very small part of the community living in a state of plenty. In this period when Qur’anic moral values reign supreme, there will be equality among people from all sections of society, and a climate of peace and security. As a result of this climate of justice, people will have nothing to do with cheating, evil or what is unlawful. This climate so full of justice is described as follows in hadiths:

Hazrat Mahdi (as)... will fill the earth with justice when it was formerly full of oppression. In the time of his succesion the dwellers in the earth and sky, and even the birds in the air, will be delighted with him. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 24)

In the same way that bees gather round the queen, so people will gather round Hazrat Mahdi (as). He will fill the world, once filled with oppression, with justice instead, the sleeping man will not be awakened and no blood will be shed.(Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 11)

... He will fill the world with truth and justice as it is now filled with oppression and torture.(Sunan Abu Dawud, 5/93)

He will fill the world with justice, instead of oppression and torture.(Al-Barzanji, Al-Isha'ah li-ashrat al-sa'ah, p. 163)

... The world will be filled with justice...(Imam Rabbani, Letters of Rabbani, 1/251)

Justice will be so plentiful that everything taken away by force will be restored to its owner, and things will be given back to their owners, even if it is just something caught between someone’s teeth… The earth will be filled with security, and a handful of women will easily be able to go on the hajj even if unaccompanied by any men. (Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi `Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, p. 23)

He will distribute goods fairly. His justice will prevail everywhere. The world, now full of cruelty and evil, will overflow with justice after his coming… In the time of Hazrat Mahdi (as), justice will be so plentiful that everything taken away by force will be restored to its owner, and everything will be given back to its owner, even just something caught between someone’s teeth... The world will be filled with security and even just a few women will easily be able to go on the hajj unaccompanied by any men. (Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Al-Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi `Alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, p. 23)

According to this information supplied in the hadiths, the main distinguishing features of this period will be abundance of products and goods of all kinds, the establishment of security and justice, peace and happiness, all material resources being used for people’s ease, comfort, joy and happiness, nobody being left in need, and those who ask being given many times more than they require. Additionally, it is also revealed in the hadiths that “weapons will fall silent,” which imparts the glad tidings that the Earth will be filled with peace in this age. People who were previously in a state of disagreement with one another will enjoy great brotherhood during the Golden Age, and conflict of all kinds will be replaced by peace, friendship and love.

One of the main reasons for this climate when all mankind enjoys great peace, security and comfort will be Muslims’ proper moral values. The most important feature of the Golden Age will be that it is a period when people have complete devotion to the Qur’an and fully live according to Qur’anic moral values. Since people will fear Allah and be aware that they will be held to account for all their deeds in the Hereafter, they will scrupulously avoid such vices as selfishness, corruption, unjust earnings, lying, harboring evil intentions towards others or taking bribes. Instead of these, virtues such as honesty, helpfulness, self-sacrifice, wanting the best for others, thinking of their health, comfort and security, love, respect, compassion, devotion and loyalty will prevail. This excellent morality that will be experienced in the Golden Age is described as follows in the hadiths of our Prophet (saas):

... In the same way that Almighty Allah began Islam with me, so He will bring it to an end with him. In the same way that they were freed from polytheism and enmity with me and their hearts were filled with friendship and love, so it will be with him. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 20)

... The goodness of good men will grow, and even the bad will be treated well.(Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 17)

In addition to all this, technological advances will reach a peak in this phase of the End Times, and people will be able to make all possible use of these technological blessings. Enormous strides will be made in medicine, agriculture, industrial technology and transportation.

The plenty, wealth, beauty and progress that will dominate all spheres of life in the Golden Age will also be reflected in the field of art. Great artistic advances will be made, and ever lovelier works will be produced in the fields of music, painting and others. The wide horizons and profound thought that faith in Allah bestows will lead the way in all branches of art. In this period people everywhere will be confronted by beauty and, just like their moral values, the homes they live in, their gardens, the decoration of their homes, their clothing, the music they listen, their forms of entertainment, theatres, pictures and conversation will also become ever more delightful.

People will be so pleased with their lives in the Golden Age that, as one hadith puts it they will “be unaware of the passing of time and will ask Allah to prolong their lives so they can take greater advantage of these delights.” In other hadiths it is revealed that everyone will wish to live in the Golden Age:

... The younger ones wish they were grown-ups, while the adults wish they were younger... (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 17)

Nuaym narrates from Tawus: I begged not to die before seeing Hazrat Mahdi (as). Because the goodness of good people will grow in his time, and even the bad will be treated well. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 17)

Nuaim Ibn Hammad narrates from Ibn Abbas that: Hazrat Mahdi (as)is a young one from our Ahl al-Bayt. Our elderly will not reach him whereas the young ones will hope for him… (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 173)

All these good aspects of living in the time of Hazrat Mahdi (as), a most valuable human being who will be a means whereby people attain salvation in this world and in the Hereafter, are indicated by our Prophet (saas), telling people to “follow him, even by crawling over snow:”

... A man from my family appears to fill Earth with justice, just as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever reaches that [time] ought to come to them, even if crawling on the ice/snow, since among them is the successor of Allah al-Mahdi. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 14)

People will enjoy all these delights the tidings of which Allah imparts to His faithful servants in the Qur’an, in this age. Allah reveals in verses that He will give faithful believers delightful lives in this world:

What is with you runs out but what is with Allah goes on forever. Those who were steadfast will be recompensed according to the best of what they did. Anyone who acts rightly, male or female, being a believer, We will give them a good life and We will recompense them according to the best of what they did. (Surat an-Nahl, 96-97)

It is emphasized in the Qur’an that those environments in which people live according to Allah’s commandments will turn into the Abode of Peace. People possessed of such moral values will enjoy great delights in this world and also be rewarded with the endless life of Paradise in the Hereafter:

Allah calls to the Abode of Peace and He guides whom He wills to a straight path. Those who do good will have the best and more! Neither dust nor debasement will darken their faces. They are the Companions of the Garden, remaining in it timelessly, forever. (Surah Yunus, 25-26)



Feel free to access more articles from my blog - http://malikbrother.tumblr.com/post/13858251785/the-golden-age-that-will-be-enjoyed-in-the-time-of-the

[WithLoveFromCanada]

Malik bhai aka Dr Zakir Naik of this forum, welcome back. Kahan they aap? This forum missed you. Can you please tell how will we be able to identify Jesus and Mehdi R.A whenever they make their appearance.

[Junooni]

Malik bhai aka Dr Zakir Naik of this forum, welcome back. Kahan they aap? This forum missed you. Can you please tell how will we be able to identify Jesus and Mehdi R.A whenever they make their appearance.

According to many, myself included, there will be no second coming of Mehdi and the ahadeeth saying so are most likely fabricated

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

^AFAIK, only Ahmedies or hadith rejectors believe that. Are you either of the two?

[Justcrazy]

According to many, myself included, there will be no second coming of Mehdi and the ahadeeth saying so are most likely fabricated

brother are you a Qadiyani ??

[Junooni]

I am a Sunni Muslim

And many renowned scholars believe that, including ALLAMA IQBAL, the ideological founder of Pakistan who was not a Qadiyani

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Can you name some Sunni scholars that believe that? And Allama Iqbal was not a Scholar of the deen.

[ahamedirshad123]

Hadhrat Abdullah bin Mas'ood(RA) reports from the Prophet(SAW), who said:

The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.

(Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207;
also narrated by Ali b. Abi Talib, Abu Sa'id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)


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Hadhrat Ali(RA) narrates that Rasulullah(SAW) said:

Even if only a day remains for Qiyamah to come, yet Allah will surely send a man from my family who will fill this world with such justice and fairness, just as it initially was filled with oppression.
(Abu Dawood)

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Ali b. Abi Talib(RA) has related a tradition from the Prophet(SAW) who informed him:

The promised Mahdi will be among my family. God will make the provisions for his emergence within a single night.
(Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

^Jazakallah for posting these.

[Junooni]

Can you name some Sunni scholars that believe that? And Allama Iqbal was not a Scholar of the deen.

What? Allama Iqbal is one of the greatest Islamic scholars to have lived in last 500 years. !!!!!! Even his critics give him due respect for his contribution and work for Islam. Please read some history

I call myself Sunni mainly because i hail from a Sunni family

I have done independent study and verification of deen irrespective of my sect, and on some issues come to different conclusions than the majority viewpoint in my sect

This issue of Mahdi return is just one of them. I personally believe that all ahadeeth should be read in the light of Quran, and Quran contradicts the popular ahadeeth on Mahdi issue


Allah knows best

JazakAllah

[NJamal]

^ Can you tell us how the holy Quran contradicts the Ahadith on the coming of Mahdi?

I agree with you that Allama Muhammad Iqbal was a great scholar of Islam. But brother please enlighten us where he rejected the coming of Mahdi?

[iZaman]

:facepalm: I love these sulf-sufficient-ulamas in this forum.

[Momo]

Malik bhai aka Dr Zakir Naik of this forum, welcome back. Kahan they aap? This forum missed you. Can you please tell how will we be able to identify Jesus and Mehdi R.A whenever they make their appearance.
I am not sure about Mehdi sahab but we can easily identify Jesus by this portrait:

http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5bb353ef0147e040d615970b-pi

[Gabbar Singh]

I am not sure about Mehdi sahab but we can easily identify Jesus by this portrait:

http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5bb353ef0147e040d615970b-pi

Then he's already here maybe?

http://www.prensa.cl/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/wallpapers-de-gabriel-batistuta-5.jpg

[Cpt. Rishwat]

^

you'd think he'd have a better tan living in the middle east but at least his heart appears to be in the right place.

[Momo]

then he's already here maybe?

http://www.prensa.cl/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/wallpapers-de-gabriel-batistuta-5.jpg
:))) :))) :)))

[Junooni]

Blasphemy!!!

[mithun_minhas]

Perfect Jesus Look alike.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/6/22/37a4fb0d-ba93-4f24-8585-867552c0aab2.jpg

[Tapori]

Quite a major portion of Humanity's existence that period isn't it?

I wonder why the Book for All of Mankind's existence, A Light itself on our very existence as Humans, doesn't mention such a major subject.

have eradicated the intellectual system of the antichrist

No. That "System" is called using Aql and has given you the very ability to post on an Internet forum and kept you Healthy by using such devious "Intellect" to develop cures for Diseases and viruses (Not that I absolve the practice of Big Pharmaceutical companies).

Intellect/Aql is a tool; Use it for good or you can use it for bad.

If you refer to a particular Intellectual System Vs another Intellectual System, then do define the exact "System" your admonishing.

The "AntiChrist" as a concept is very akin to that which many Right-Wing Evangelical Christians harp on about; Hence their disregard for "Intellect" and "Science"... Well only if it suits them!
Again, it was the Catholic Church who have routinely fought against "Intellect".

If Muslims actually used their Aql, as repeatedly mentioned in the Quran, then you wouldn't have the problems as basic as feeding and treating fellow human beings in the largest Muslim Majority countries.

-

It's also incredibly important to note that many "Anti-Intellectual Islamic movements" - a contradiction in of itself, as Islam is synonymous with Intellect, have routinely sought to dismiss the use of "Aql" when it came to Key issues in Islam;

This issue led to Key schools of Islamic thought competing with each other; Incl. in part the Shia Sunni split, but moreso the initial Sunni schools, differing and debating the use of Aql, its limitations and its benefits...

[Masterji]

I am still not sure what the qadyanis believe. It seems that they are confused about Mirza as Mirza was himself? What was he, Esa,Mary or none of them. he seems to have claimed alot of things during his life and people fell for it.

[Warfare]

Good to see MM back.

Al-Mahdi and Isa seem as if they're super humans. Overall, entertaining myth if you ask me. :)

[Free Hit]

People making joke of these facts (Hadith proves it)of coming of these two Personalities :facepalm

get a life...

[WithLoveFromCanada]

People making joke of these facts (Hadith proves it)of coming of these two Personalities :facepalm

get a life...

Mine was a serious question tbh, i really wanna know how you would know they're what they would claim then of being Jesus or Mehdi. Today if somebody says he's mehdi or jesus, people will probably slap him. right?

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

What? Allama Iqbal is one of the greatest Islamic scholars to have lived in last 500 years. !!!!!! Even his critics give him due respect for his contribution and work for Islam. Please read some history

I call myself Sunni mainly because i hail from a Sunni family

I have done independent study and verification of deen irrespective of my sect, and on some issues come to different conclusions than the majority viewpoint in my sect

This issue of Mahdi return is just one of them. I personally believe that all ahadeeth should be read in the light of Quran, and Quran contradicts the popular ahadeeth on Mahdi issue


Allah knows best

JazakAllah


Whatever.. Allama Iqbal was a poet & a philosopher. His formal studies were not in Islamic sciences. He was an independent thinker.

And I'd appreciate if you'd share your findings about Iqbal's rejection of Mehdi or Isa (as).

[Free Hit]

As far as my knowledge is..

They would never claim that they are such but people will notice them...the times will be such and a scenario will be created to make the end of times happen in the given way...

...

[Namak_Halaal]

The legend returns.

Where have you been MalikMohsin bhai?

[KingKhanWC]

I am not sure about Mehdi sahab but we can easily identify Jesus by this portrait:
]

Poor humour.

Al-Mahdi and Isa seem as if they're super humans. Overall, entertaining myth if you ask me.

Well Jesus(pbuh) was given miracles by God which no normal human could ever do. This is mentioned in the Quran, no myth mate.

The return of Jesus(pbuh) and the arrival of The Mehdi is accepted by classical Islam by all renowed scholars of the past and present. People can choose not to believe this but only the ignorant would claim this is not Islamic.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Mine was a serious question tbh, i really wanna know how you would know they're what they would claim then of being Jesus or Mehdi. Today if somebody says he's mehdi or jesus, people will probably slap him. right?

It's a long series but it's extremely very interesting. If you have the time do check it out. It's also the most authentic account and one that I personally trust.

DpN5S4rhMCo

[Namak_Halaal]

^

you'd think he'd have a better tan living in the middle east but at least his heart appears to be in the right place.

Contrary to popular belief, the ‘modern’ image of Jesus is based on the renaissance period – it’s a fake.

The widely accepted image of Jesus proves that history is rewritten by the winners.

[Momo]

Poor humour.
Well there's no accounting for tastes. :inzi

[Momo]

The return of Jesus(pbuh) and the arrival of The Mehdi is accepted by classical Islam by all renowed scholars of the past and present. People can choose not to believe this but only the ignorant would claim this is not Islamic.
I agree. It is kind of "Islamic". But then, by the same token the disappeared 12th Imaam is "Islamic" too.

Something can be "Islamic" and can still be a fairy tale, you see.

[Zeeraq]

Before the Golden Age Dajjal(Toughest Period for Muslims) will come.

[MalikMohsin]

Assalamu - Alaikum, Everyone!

Malik bhai aka Dr Zakir Naik of this forum, welcome back. Kahan they aap? This forum missed you. Can you please tell how will we be able to identify Jesus and Mehdi R.A whenever they make their appearance.

Break from PP, and then, the journey to blog. (LOL) Pata naahin chala, Subhan'Allaah! - I would hardly believe the forum will have missed me, but if it did, then i equally did miss them too.

Good question. However, the comeback of Prophet Isa (PBUH) in Earth will be very unique, and that's something the world will be astounded through an electronic devices such as cell phone video recording...etc.

How would we recognize Imam Mahdi (A.S)? After several hadith, and what i have come into the conclusion that Imam Mahdi will be waiting for Khurasan (Afghanistan-Pakistan - not sure, that's why) in Saudi Arabia and during that times, there would be great turmoil in Saudi Arabia during WW3 (Allahu Alim). We would know that whichever nation conquer India (Ghazwah-e-Hind) will go to Saudi Arabia to fight for Imam Mahdi (A.S). And Imam Mahdi (A.S) will announce himself in Saudi Arabia - Hajj, Insha'Allaah!

So, The conqueror of Ghazwah-e-Hind will go to Saudi Arabia for Imam Madhi (A.S) and during the times, Imam Mahdi (A.S) will already announced himself to the world in Saudi Arabia - Makkah. Allaahu Alim (Allaah knows best)

The legend returns.

Where have you been MalikMohsin bhai?

Thank for the compliments, but i am not really Legend. If there is anyone who is Legend, that's you, Alhamdulillah! Love your contribution to PP, and keep it up.

Decided to take break, and then, got involved in promoting my blog to spread the truth through the blogging methods. Insha'Allaah, many people will benefit from my blog.



Before the Golden Age Dajjal(Toughest Period for Muslims) will come.

True. The Golden Age of Dajjal Official won't last that long, but will be one of the biggest test in the history of mankind.

[attock]

Assalamu - Alaikum, Everyone!



Break from PP, and then, the journey to blog. (LOL) Pata naahin chala, Subhan'Allaah! - I would hardly believe the forum will have missed me, but if it did, then i equally did miss them too.

Good question. However, the comeback of Prophet Isa (PBUH) in Earth will be very unique, and that's something the world will be astounded through an electronic devices such as cell phone video recording...etc.

How would we recognize Imam Mahdi (A.S)? After several hadith, and what i have come into the conclusion that Imam Mahdi will be waiting for Khurasan (Afghanistan-Pakistan - not sure, that's why) in Saudi Arabia and during that times, there would be great turmoil in Saudi Arabia during WW3 (Allahu Alim). We would know that whichever nation conquer India (Ghazwah-e-Hind) will go to Saudi Arabia to fight for Imam Mahdi (A.S). And Imam Mahdi (A.S) will announce himself in Saudi Arabia - Hajj, Insha'Allaah!

So, The conqueror of Ghazwah-e-Hind will go to Saudi Arabia for Imam Madhi (A.S) and during the times, Imam Mahdi (A.S) will already announced himself to the world in Saudi Arabia - Makkah. Allaahu Alim (Allaah knows best)



Thank for the compliments, but i am not really Legend. If there is anyone who is Legend, that's you, Alhamdulillah! Love your contribution to PP, and keep it up.

Decided to take break, and then, got involved in promoting my blog to spread the truth through the blogging methods. Insha'Allaah, many people will benefit from my blog.





True. The Golden Age of Dajjal Official won't last that long, but will be one of the biggest test in the history of mankind.

Brilliant post as usual MM bhai......

[KingKhanWC]

Well there's no accounting for tastes. :inzi

True as a Muslim I don't find cheap ridicule of a great Prophet tasteful.

I agree. It is kind of "Islamic". But then, by the same token the disappeared 12th Imaam is "Islamic" too.

Something can be "Islamic" and can still be a fairy tale, you see.

lol. This is a belief held by a minority of Muslims mainly Shias, not classical Islam. Next you'll be telling me the nation of Islam is Islamic.

[SIMBA]

I am not sure about Mehdi sahab but we can easily identify Jesus by this portrait:

http://tallskinnykiwi.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5bb353ef0147e040d615970b-pi

A muslim should know better then that!

[Momo]

True as a Muslim I don't find cheap ridicule of a great Prophet tasteful.
There's no accounting for tastes, and stupidity. :))

lol. This is a belief held by a minority of Muslims mainly Shias, not classical Islam.
So? The 12th Imaam is as "Islamic" as the myth under discussion on this thread.

[DeadlyVenom]

:facepalm: Momo, poor post from a respected poster.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

There's no accounting for tastes, and stupidity. :))


I bet you found really tasty when some people drew pictures of Prophet Muhammad saw too. :)

[Tapori]

^ Yeah because those two situations are exactly the same?

In any case the Christian depiction of Jesus is exactly that; It is not and will never be the Islamic depiction and thus MoMo's post is fine.

[KingKhanWC]

There's no accounting for tastes, and stupidity. :))

I totally agree. :))


So? The 12th Imaam is as "Islamic" as the myth under discussion on this thread.

The coming of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) is an accepted part of Classical Islam. His grave even exists in Medina. For reformists there are many myths but for traditional Muslims there are very little.

Yeah because those two situations are exactly the same?


Can you quote some Islamic sources which suggest it's ok to depict the Prophet Jesus(pbuh) but not the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)?

[Tapori]

Can you quote some Islamic sources which suggest it's ok to depict the Prophet Jesus(pbuh) but not the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)?

I never implied that; Thats also completely missing my point.
All pictorial depictions of the Islamic prophets (PBUT) are prevented; For obvious cultish reasons.

MoMo in his post though, just gave a depiction of the Christian Jesus - Now that might not be funny to you, but surely you can see he isn't mocking the Islamic representation of Isa (PBUH), found in the Quran?

The coming of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) is an accepted part of Classical Islam.

So we stop questioning orthodoxies? Like the putrid filth that passes for "Truth" Amongst many supposed learned scholars?

Define Classical Islam aswell please?

Since when did belief in the return of the Mahdi and Isa (PBUH) become a Prerequisite for being an ardent Muslim?

[Tapori]

His grave even exists in Medina

Well thats settled, on that basis Mohammad PBUH will return too.

*Note the context and use of itallics to denote implied sarcasm in the above; A message for any Blasphemy Police that might be lurking*

[KingKhanWC]

I never implied that; Thats also completely missing my point.
All pictorial depictions of the Islamic prophets (PBUT) are prevented; For obvious cultish reasons.

MoMo in his post though, just gave a depiction of the Christian Jesus - Now that might not be funny to you, but surely you can see he isn't mocking the Islamic representation of Isa (PBUH), found in the Quran?

You you need to be more clear then.


What do you mean 'cultish'?

So we stop questioning orthodoxies? Like the putrid filth that passes for "Truth" Amongst many supposed learned scholars?

Question all you like but bring something to the table.

Define Classical Islam aswell please?

What do you think it means?

Since when did belief in the return of the Mahdi and Isa (PBUH) become a Prerequisite for being an ardent Muslim?

No just a heretic.

[KingKhanWC]

Well thats settled, on that basis Mohammad PBUH will return too.

*Note the context and use of itallics to denote implied sarcasm in the above; A message for any Blasphemy Police that might be lurking*

I understand your 'sarcasm'.

The difference the grave of Prophet(pbuh) is empty because according to Islam he was not killed and did not die but was raised up to heaven. He will return to die a natural death.

[James]

A a raised Protestant who would consider myself agnostic these days, I personally have no problem with depictions of Jesus Christ and never have, although it is interesting above, if true and if I have read it correctly, that Islam forbids depictions of Jesus as much as they do of the Prophet Muhammad. I didn't know that. I'm still making my mind up over whether or not a human being can truly be a prophet, but what is clear from known history is that the two men were certainly exceptional in several ways at least, and I have a lot of respect for both of them.

[Warfare]

Poor humour.



Well Jesus(pbuh) was given miracles by God which no normal human could ever do. This is mentioned in the Quran, no myth mate.

The return of Jesus(pbuh) and the arrival of The Mehdi is accepted by classical Islam by all renowed scholars of the past and present. People can choose not to believe this but only the ignorant would claim this is not Islamic.

I was talking about the Isa and Mahdi saga - not relevant to whether or not Isa performed miracles 2000 odd years ago. :)

[KingKhanWC]

A a raised Protestant who would consider myself agnostic these days, I personally have no problem with depictions of Jesus Christ and never have, although it is interesting above, if true and if I have read it correctly, that Islam forbids depictions of Jesus as much as they do of the Prophet Muhammad. I didn't know that. I'm still making my mind up over whether or not a human being can truly be a prophet, but what is clear from known history is that the two men were certainly exceptional in several ways at least, and I have a lot of respect for both of them.

To put it simply Whippy, it would have made no sense for God to set rules and regulations without a human being able to carry them out or adhere to them. This is why Prophets were sent. Even though they did have miracles they as human beings showed the rest a great example of how to follow God's rules.

[PakPrince]

if he indeed comes i hope it is in my lifetime..

[James]

To put it simply Whippy, it would have made no sense for God to set rules and regulations without a human being able to carry them out or adhere to them. This is why Prophets were sent. Even though they did have miracles they as human beings showed the rest a great example of how to follow God's rules.

Fair comments. My main doubt about the existence of a supreme being concerns the fact I have never felt Him, let alone spoken to Him. I hope this happens one day, as my Westernised mind operates on the presence of observable evidence, and I have yet to see any of a sky god.

[A.M.]

Can you name some Sunni scholars that believe that? And Allama Iqbal was not a Scholar of the deen.

well if he wasnt why are u calling him ALAMA then??

[A.M.]

I am a Sunni Muslim

And many renowned scholars believe that, including ALLAMA IQBAL, the ideological founder of Pakistan who was not a Qadiyani

plz give evidence for what u r saying!!

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

^ Yeah because those two situations are exactly the same?

In any case the Christian depiction of Jesus is exactly that; It is not and will never be the Islamic depiction and thus MoMo's post is fine.

It doesn't matter how the Christians depicts Prophet Isa (as). Allah says in the Quran to not mock the false gods of others lest they mock your true one. There's no need for such humor in our religion.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

well if he wasnt why are u calling him ALAMA then??

just cuz I don't consider him an "Aalim-e-deen" doesn't mean that I don't consider him an Aalim/Allama in other arts.

[KingKhanWC]

Fair comments. My main doubt about the existence of a supreme being concerns the fact I have never felt Him, let alone spoken to Him. I hope this happens one day, as my Westernised mind operates on the presence of observable evidence, and I have yet to see any of a sky god.

Well nobody should believe in anything blindly. Let's be honest though, if you seen God or spoke to him you would believe in him defeating the object. Reminds me of story(not aimed at you).

A teacher asks the children in class...

"Can you see God"?

"Can you hear God"?

"Can you feel God"?

No so there is no God!

A child stands up and asks.

Teacher...

"Can I see your brain?"

"Can I hear your brain?"

"Can I feel your brain?"

No so you don't have a brain!

Feeling God is an interesting subject which I have little knowledge of but one of the verses which I read in the Quran when I first started to look into Islam was this..

13:28 those who believe, and whose hearts find their rest in the remembrance of God - for, verily, in the remembrance of God [men's] hearts do find their rest-:

From my experience and many others when you submit to God in prayer or remembrance you find an amazing feeling of peace. Ive experience most enjoyments but never came close to this feeling.

[James]

But but but you can cut open your head or have an MRI scan. There is a brain there you can see and even feel :P

The theory of enlightenment through prayer is a really cool one. I went to a meditation class once that was areligious as far as I know. It certainly worked and I ended up with a practically post-coital feeling, fell asleep for a few minutes on the floor, and felt pretty high and free of worries for the rest of the day after waking up. Quite amazing. However I question whether this is all physiological and/or imagined rather than spiritual - although I have not yet performed a purely religious submission, which is probably what you were going to say, so I will try that next :)

Incidentally, I had an out-of-body experience in my sleep once and felt like I had genuinely been separated from my shell and gone back in again. Again, it could have been all in me 'ead, but it has opened my mind to the possibility of a cosmic plain. Wouldn't mind this happening again so I can create better memories of the feeling it creates. Hopefully there is some kind of afterlife so we can all reconvene and debate further one day.

Anyway, I've gone completely off topic now, sorry

[KingKhanWC]

But but but you can cut open your head or have an MRI scan. There is a brain there you can see and even feel :P

:))

The theory of enlightenment through prayer is a really cool one. I went to a meditation class once that was areligious as far as I know. It certainly worked and I ended up with a practically post-coital feeling, fell asleep for a few minutes on the floor, and felt pretty high and free of worries for the rest of the day after waking up. Quite amazing. However I question whether this is all physiological and/or imagined rather than spiritual - although I have not yet performed a purely religious submission, which is probably what you were going to say, so I will try that next :)

I think in Islam one has to accept their is one God only then any submission can produce this feeling of peace and enlightenment. Interestingly the Quran says God is closer to the human than his own jugular vein. Once the connection is made (spiritualy) the feeling of peace is something else , difficult to describe. Now do this 5 times a day and you will be in constant peace. I've met some Sufi's and it was amazing seeing them in such a tranquil state.

Incidentally, I had an out-of-body experience in my sleep once and felt like I had genuinely been separated from my shell and gone back in again. Again, it could have been all in me 'ead, but it has opened my mind to the possibility of a cosmic plain. Wouldn't mind this happening again so I can create better memories of the feeling it creates. Hopefully there is some kind of afterlife so we can all reconvene and debate further one day.

Anyway, I've gone completely off topic now, sorry

I've never had one of those but sounds fascinating. Yep going off-topic now. lol

[attock]

The theory of enlightenment through prayer is a really cool one. I went to a meditation class once that was areligious as far as I know. It certainly worked and I ended up with a practically post-coital feeling, fell asleep for a few minutes on the floor, and felt pretty high and free of worries for the rest of the day after waking up. Quite amazing.

In the line of Taswauf/Sufism, we also meditate which we call Muraqba.....Their are several ways of meditation and yes you are correct, it does give you a sense of peace and tranquility......... :)

[SAPakFan]

Slmz, Imam Mahdi will be spotted in tawaaf only by abdaals(chosen,v pious & 40 at all times in the world) a Thursday night before Haj. Also he will come before dajjaal, rule the world peacefully for about 7 years,then dajjaal will come to cause havoc & then Isa (AS) will come & he will kill dajjaal. I had a clip which i once posted a link for,showing thd khurasaan army,their black flag & that Imam Mahdi will be from that army. Allah knows best.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Fair comments. My main doubt about the existence of a supreme being concerns the fact I have never felt Him, let alone spoken to Him. I hope this happens one day, as my Westernised mind operates on the presence of observable evidence, and I have yet to see any of a sky god.

I think that spirituality (or feeling god) comes once the belief in god settles in a person's heart. It comes from the knowledge of God. Who he is and what does he want/expect from us. It develops with time and knowledge, just like any other thing in the world.

The more knowledge you have about a certain thing the more closer you feel to it, learn it better, master it and might even teach it to others.

So, if you're willing to entertain the idea of God and the Islamic concept of the God then I'd recommend this series. It's very long - yes, but this series was one of the first ones that made me revive my own belief in God/Allah.

It's quite long and I understand that you may not necessarily be interested in every single topic covered in the book, but I'd still advise to view at least the first and second lecture in the series.

Part 1) w9xkQZnxkrY

&

Part 2) yIL2GWrNp1I

[Momo]

The coming of the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) is an accepted part of Classical Islam. His grave even exists in Medina.
:))


Like I said, there's no accounting for stupidity.
:moyo

[NJamal]

I agree. It is kind of "Islamic". But then, by the same token the disappeared 12th Imaam is "Islamic" too.

Something can be "Islamic" and can still be a fairy tale, you see.

There are hundreds of Authentic Ahadith on the coming back of Hazrat Isa (PBUH) and Imam Mahdi. In these Ahadith a lot of details are told by our holy Prophet (PBUH) regarding the arrivals of both of these personalities. Can you quote just one authentic Hadith regarding this so called 12th Imam?

Please in the name of humor don't make mockery of Islam and Ahadith by calling these events as fairy tales.

[Eagle_Eye]

There are hundreds of Authentic Ahadith on the coming back of Hazrat Isa (PBUH) and Imam Mahdi. In these Ahadith a lot of details are told by our holy Prophet (PBUH) regarding the arrivals of both of these personalities. Can you quote just one authentic Hadith regarding this so called 12th Imam?

Please in the name of humor don't make mockery of Islam and Ahadith by calling these events as fairy tales.

How come such important events are not mentioned in the Quran?

[Momo]

A big thanks to the blasphemy police and the self-appointed defenders of "classical" Islam (whatever that is) for providing epic lulz with all the faux righteous outrage. :)) :)) :)) x 1,000,000


@AbdulrazzaqFan: You too, although your faux outrage carries half the weight of that carried by the outrage of other soldiers of "classical" Islam (hence half as amusing). :)) :)) :)) X 500,000


:yk

[Namak_Halaal]

How come such important events are not mentioned in the Quran?

May help : http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/s1_3.html

[Itachi]

Well nobody should believe in anything blindly. Let's be honest though, if you seen God or spoke to him you would believe in him defeating the object. Reminds me of story(not aimed at you).

A teacher asks the children in class...

"Can you see God"?

"Can you hear God"?

"Can you feel God"?

No so there is no God!

A child stands up and asks.

Teacher...

"Can I see your brain?"

"Can I hear your brain?"

"Can I feel your brain?"

No so you don't have a brain!



not a good metaphore though. You just need to cut the head and there you see the brain.... I was holding one today....

[Namak_Halaal]

not a good metaphore though. You just need to cut the head and there you see the brain.... I was holding one today....

Perhaps the child should stand up and ask:

"Can I see Natural Selection?"

"Can I hear Natural Selection?"

"Can I feel Natural Selection?"

"Can I taste Natural Selection?"

"Can I smell Natural Selection?"

No, so there's no such thing as Natural Selection.

[NJamal]

A big thanks to the blasphemy police and the self-appointed defenders of "classical" Islam (whatever that is) for providing epic lulz with all the faux righteous outrage. :)) :)) :)) x 1,000,000


@AbdulrazzaqFan: You too, although your faux outrage carries half the weight of that carried by the outrage of other soldiers of "classical" Islam (hence half as amusing). :)) :)) :)) X 500,000


:yk

Not funny at all. I thought you are a mature poster. Immensely disappointed.

[Itachi]

Perhaps the child should stand up and ask:

"Can I see Natural Selection?"

"Can I hear Natural Selection?"

"Can I feel Natural Selection?"

"Can I taste Natural Selection?"

"Can I smell Natural Selection?"

No, so there's no such thing as Natural Selection.

as a matter of fact, i don't support natural selection.

[NJamal]

How come such important events are not mentioned in the Quran?

Can u tell us Why it is not mentioned in the Quran that we had to pray 5 times a day? How we had to pray? There are a lot of things not mentioned in the Quran but are mentioned in the Ahadith. Ahadith are are as important as Quran for Muslims.

[Namak_Halaal]

Can u tell us Why it is not mentioned in the Quran that we had to pray 5 times a day? How we had to pray? There are a lot of things not mentioned in the Quran but are mentioned in the Ahadith. Ahadith are are as important as Quran for Muslims.

Brother,

The Five Times Are Specified in the Qur'an

(1) The Dawn Prayer is mentioned by name in 24:58. Before sunrise.
(2) The Noon Prayer is specified in 17:78. When the sun declines.
(3) The Afternoon Prayer is in 2:238. Midway between noon and sunset.
(4) The Sunset Prayer is mentioned in 11:114. Immediately after sunset.
(5) The Night Prayer is in 11:114, and is mentioned by name in 24:58.



Wudo is also mentioned in the Qur'an

Al-Mâ'idah 5:06

O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salât (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janâba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allâh does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.

How we pray is also mentioned in the Qur'an (Bow, Kneel, Prostrate)


What isn't mentioned, is what we pray, but in my view, it doesn't matter.

[NJamal]

^ The point I was making is that for understanding Islam fully you had to study both the Quran & Ahadith together. Some things are mentioned in Quran but their full details can be found in Ahadith. The sayings of our Prophet (PBUH) are also the sayings of Allah because in the end it was Allah who taught & described to him everything. We can't ignore the Ahadith, they are as important as Quran.

[Eagle_Eye]

Can u tell us Why it is not mentioned in the Quran that we had to pray 5 times a day? How we had to pray? There are a lot of things not mentioned in the Quran but are mentioned in the Ahadith. Ahadith are are as important as Quran for Muslims.

Nothing is as important as the Quran.... you should know better

[NJamal]

Nothing is as important as the Quran.... you should know better

Don't know about you brother but for me both are important.

[Namak_Halaal]

^ The point I was making is that for understanding Islam fully you had to study both the Quran & Ahadith together. Some things are mentioned in Quran but their full details can be found in Ahadith. The sayings of our Prophet (PBUH) are also the sayings of Allah because in the end it was Allah who taught & described to him everything. We can't ignore the Ahadith, they are as important as Quran.

Really? How comes you ignore all Ahadtih but stick with Bukhari then? Do other Hadiths contain errors?

[KingKhanWC]

:))


Like I said, there's no accounting for stupidity.
:moyo

Like i said, I agree. :))

How about you start to act your old age and discuss why you think the return of Isa(as) is not true? I can't wait to read it. :zaka

[KingKhanWC]

not a good metaphore though. You just need to cut the head and there you see the brain.... I was holding one today....

It's just a humorous little story which has a point. You are taking it too seriously. :))

if he indeed comes i hope it is in my lifetime..

It may well happen depending on how long you live.

Anyone who is actually interested to know if we are now living in the end times must watch this lecture by the legendary scholar Imran Hosien. I would especially advise the new age reformists such as Momo.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/a8_DGU4JnOU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[AFG_Brit]

I was speaking to my family back home (Afghanistan) and they told me that apparently someone has come up and said that he is imam mehdi and he has already got followers. The government and taliban have not said anything about it.. Maybe someone here knows more about it?

i personaly don't beleive this is true but would certainly like to know other persons views.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

A big thanks to the blasphemy police and the self-appointed defenders of "classical" Islam (whatever that is) for providing epic lulz with all the faux righteous outrage. :)) :)) :)) x 1,000,000


@AbdulrazzaqFan: You too, although your faux outrage carries half the weight of that carried by the outrage of other soldiers of "classical" Islam (hence half as amusing). :)) :)) :)) X 500,000

:yk

Cool it with hyperbole, I don’t mock other people’s gods like you and I wasn’t “outraged” either. I simply found your post distasteful just like some other posters in this thread did. But wait a minute; perhaps I’m mistaken in thinking I’m conversing with an adult. Maybe you’re just a little girl sitting behind your screen typing away little yellow smilies X 500,000. If that’s the case, I’m sorry I picked on you.

[Eagle_Eye]

I was speaking to my family back home (Afghanistan) and they told me that apparently someone has come up and said that he is imam mehdi and he has already got followers. The government and taliban have not said anything about it.. Maybe someone here knows more about it?

i personaly don't beleive this is true but would certainly like to know other persons views.

Is it this guy? :)

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Swevac0Qink" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[NJamal]

I was speaking to my family back home (Afghanistan) and they told me that apparently someone has come up and said that he is imam mehdi and he has already got followers. The government and taliban have not said anything about it.. Maybe someone here knows more about it?

i personaly don't beleive this is true but would certainly like to know other persons views.

LOL @ Mahdi in Afghanistan. Imam Mahdi will be an Arab not Afghan or from some other race. In the past also a lot of lairs (Kazzabs) had tried to present themselves as Mahdi but failed miserably. There are clear description of him and the circumstances around his time of arrival in ahadith.

[Momo]

Not funny at all. I thought you are a mature poster. Immensely disappointed.
You will be even more disappointed when you will realize these are fairy tales for toddlers. :fawad

[Momo]

Cool it with hyperbole, I don’t mock other people’s gods like you and I wasn’t “outraged” either. I simply found your post distasteful just like some other posters in this thread did. But wait a minute; perhaps I’m mistaken in thinking I’m conversing with an adult. Maybe you’re just a little girl sitting behind your screen typing away little yellow smilies X 500,000. If that’s the case, I’m sorry I picked on you.
Why so serious? :farhat

[KingKhanWC]

^:)))

Momo please just tell us why you think it's all a 'fairytale' or post a link.

[SAPakFan]

Nothing is as important as the Quran.... you should know better

Are you a 'salafi' by any chance???

[Momo]

^ @KKWC

Yaar, been there, done that (multiple times). [When you are on PP for as many years as I have been, the same topics come back again and again with frequency of a few months. Search and I am sure you will find plenty of stuff. I hope you will excuse me from going through the detailed stuff all over again.]

My contribution to this thread will therefore be confined to gently nudging the enthusiastic brigade encouraging them to think for themselves. Thinking independently leads to the truth and the truth liberates! :)

I assure you that any amusement obtained will be purely incidental. :inzi

[KingKhanWC]

Fair enough.

Can copy and paste your quotes on here. :D

I would search but since you were a mod your skills are far more advanced. :afridi

[SAPakFan]

I was speaking to my family back home (Afghanistan) and they told me that apparently someone has come up and said that he is imam mehdi and he has already got followers. The government and taliban have not said anything about it.. Maybe someone here knows more about it?

i personaly don't beleive this is true but would certainly like to know other persons views.

Imam Mahdi won't announce himself imo. He will be spotted by 'abdaals' of which there are 40 at all times in the world, while performing tawaaf before the days of Haj. He will probably come from Khurasaan,i don't think from Saudi, but only abdaals /v pious people will be able to recognise him & he won't be 1 to look for attention/ announce himself imo.

[Momo]

For those of you who are too young to remember these things (effectively the whole of PP):

Reverend Moon was having tax problems and in the court trying him for tax evasion, the prosecuting lawyer asked him why he had done a certain thing. The following dialogue ensued:

Prosecutor: Why did you do it, Reverend.

Reverend: Jesus appeared to me, and told me to do so.

Prosecutor: How did you know it was Jesus?

Reverend: I recognized him.

Prosector: How did you recognise him?

Reverend: From his portrait.
:))

Moral of the story: The issue of how to recognize Jesus (or Mehdi etc) when (if, to be precise) he appears is a tricky one.

[Momo]

Fair enough.

Can copy and paste your quotes on here. :D

I would search but since you were a mod your skills are far more advanced. :afridi
No particular skills are required yaar. There have been many cycles and you will easily find one or two.

[Eagle_Eye]

Are you a 'salafi' by any chance???

No.... I am just one just likes to question what is just taken as "common" knowledge or accepted facts...


Any hadith that has no basis in the Quran, I am not inclined to believe... hope this explains my point.

[KingKhanWC]

Disgusting reverends should not need to pay tax.

The issue of how to recognize Jesus (or Mehdi etc) when (if, to be precise) he appears is a tricky one.

Watch the video I posted.

[Momo]

Disgusting reverends should not need to pay tax.
The problem of recognizing is a real one, for non-reverends too.


Watch the video I posted.
Kindly summarize the argument. These videos are too painful (no disrespect). :adnan

[KingKhanWC]

The Sheikh is very eloquent, nice sounding voice with a West Indian accent. It's not worthy me doing a summary but I'm not here to make any argument which is different to the views held by the vast majority of Muslims in the world from various sects.

[Momo]

I am sure he is. I think I am familiar with the "vast majority of Muslims" view on this issue and what they like to call arguments supporting it. I disagree with it.

Let's agree to disagree. :)

[cricfan4ever]

top post Malik bhai! SubhanAllah I learned new things about the coming Golden Age :D

Inshallah will follow your blog!!!

also this thread has made it crystal clear who truly are the clowns of PP and if only I had read this thread before engaging in recent debates about Khilafah with these clowns... :facepalm:

[mate1]

Mine was a serious question tbh, i really wanna know how you would know they're what they would claim then of being Jesus or Mehdi. Today if somebody says he's mehdi or jesus, people will probably slap him. right?

Imam Mahdi. Would not claim himself to.be Mahdi. THE Spiritual people at the time would recognize him and before that an enemy contingent from.within Muslims would be engulfed by the desert sand. Upon hearing this many beleivers would go.to Mecca to announce allegiance. About Jesus we don't have to.worry because Imam Mahdi himself would be there for him.

[mate1]

Spiritually he is appears and talks with chosen people. The public appearance for.common.men has not happened so.far. I posted a vdo where Sheikh Nazim talked about his appearance on the day before Hank in Arafat. And only saints of the world.being present. He said that common men were excluded as they would have lost their.minds. after seeing Mahdi AS as his tajalli was very powerful this year.

[azhar329]

You will be even more disappointed when you will realize these are fairy tales for toddlers. :fawad

disclaimer: usual


It has been several days since I asked momo to answer questions re: the return of Prophet Eesa (as) etc. He has NOT done so.

Having read this thread and the above comment he has confirmed, (in my view) that he does not believe in the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the coming of the Imam Mahdi.

Momo also claimed that he immensley respects the sunnah and hadeeth (in another thread) and if there are any accusations to the contrary then to bring proof. He then went on to say words to the effect of; Allah's lanat be on the liars:

Well, YOU ARE THE LIAR, and the proofs are:

1. The "wannabe arab" thread.

2. The "PTI Revolution, Long live the king" thread. (momo's comment about people being disappointed in the return of Prophet Eesa (as) etc, )

3. This thread (Golden Age thread). See his posts, picture of Prophet Eesa (as), the above quote and saying in one post in relation to Prophet Eesa (as) and the Mahdi; "if" they appear. So he doesnt believe that they will.

There are other groups who share this point of view and are rightly classified as non-muslims.

Denial of the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the appearance of Imam Mahdi is kufr. Anyone who subscribes to this point of view, should make sincere repentance to Allah and accept what our Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) said regarding this issue.

And Allah knows best.

[Momo]

disclaimer: usual


It has been several days since I asked momo to answer questions re: the return of Prophet Eesa (as) etc. He has NOT done so.

Having read this thread and the above comment he has confirmed, (in my view) that he does not believe in the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the coming of the Imam Mahdi.

Momo also claimed that he immensley respects the sunnah and hadeeth (in another thread) and if there are any accusations to the contrary then to bring proof. He then went on to say words to the effect of; Allah's lanat be on the liars:

Well, YOU ARE THE LIAR, and the proofs are:

1. The "wannabe arab" thread.

2. The "PTI Revolution, Long live the king" thread. (momo's comment about people being disappointed in the return of Prophet Eesa (as) etc, )

3. This thread (Golden Age thread). See his posts, picture of Prophet Eesa (as), the above quote and saying in one post in relation to Prophet Eesa (as) and the Mahdi; "if" they appear. So he doesnt believe that they will.

There are other groups who share this point of view and are rightly classified as non-muslims.

Denial of the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the appearance of Imam Mahdi is kufr. Anyone who subscribes to this point of view, should make sincere repentance to Allah and accept what our Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) said regarding this issue.

And Allah knows best.
Wow. You are outdoing yourself with each passing day.

Keep it up, azhar. We welcome lulz at PP. :razzaq

[azhar329]

Wow. You are outdoing yourself with each passing day.

Keep it up, azhar. We welcome lulz at PP. :razzaq

disclaimer: same one.

In the taseer thread you said you havent mocked Islam.

READ MY LAST POST, IT CLEARLY SHOWS PROOF.

The threads are there, nobody forced you to type what you did. And what you have written is denial of the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the appearance of Imam Mahdi.

This is a trait of the Qadiyanis. By denying the return of Prophet Eesa (as) you have rejected Allah's Words relating to Prophet Eesa (as) and you have rejected authentic, universally accepted ahadeeth on this matter and the Mahdi.

You are a liar and lack shame. Despite compelling, substantial evidence you still falsely claim to have said nothing and have "immense respect". Denying the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the appearance of the Mahdi is not immense respect, it is KUFR.

May Allah save the muslims from your evil and may He give you what you deserve, ameen.

And if come out with " I do believe in the return etc" then make tawbah publically as your jahil, false statements were made in public as well.

And Allah knows best.

[Tapori]

There are other groups who share this point of view and are rightly classified as non-muslims.

Read up on your own Religion's History. Preferably from a variety of objective sources not least those not ordained from your chosen Sheikh/Sect/Mosque/School.

Read the back and forth between Muslim Philosophers from Ghazaali to Avicenna; All debated from different sides but I can't recall them ever stopping discussion based on:

"You're non-muslim. So there" End. Of. Book. End. Of Discussion. End of debate. End of Progression.

In fact didn't Baghdad in the 9th-11th century (A.D.) become home to those non-Muslims such as the Jews and Christians, simply because their intellectual elite were not only highly respected and valued by similar leading Muslims at the time, but were encouraged to debate with other Muslims at the times?

So your own history encourages you to debate even with non-Muslims on points, not on "You're a non-Muslim", and yet you dismiss Momo and others points with this obtuse angle.

Allah knows what lies in our hearts...

[zimmz]

And Allah knows best.

No offense brother but most of your posts should stop right after above quoted line. In couple of discussions I have been part of, I observed the characterisitcs which I summarized yesterday in thread you started as a suggestion. You know what I mean. For once stop acting on behalf of Allah and on behalf of univarsal umma. Stop acting like logic-less lakeer ka faqeer aka bot.
You keep repeating things even if someone gives you a very logical reply but again logic is missing in your dictionary perhaps.


Denying the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the appearance of the Mahdi is not immense respect, it is KUFR.


Folks here we go again....fatwa generating bot maulana azhar.
I would have given you a logical reply here but no use of that.

[shaheen1shaheen2]

@azhar329
Salaamualaykum
Dont let these clowns put you down brother,wallahi you've spoken the haq.keep it up insha allah

[azhar329]

disclaimer: same one

1. Firstly, I didnt call momo a kafir. I said mocking the sunnah etc can lead to kufr; denial of the return of Prophet Eesa (as) is kufr.

2. If anyone wants to defend the beliefs of the Qadiyanis I cant stop them. You can post what you like, I dont control your computer. I am not telling anyone to stop posting. I am advising people to stop mocking the sunnah etc, there is a difference.

Re: momo's beliefs; he says one thing and then denies saying it etc. In my view he is a liar and in fact he was the one who said something like "may Allah's curse be on the liars". (You didnt say anything in relation to that did you ?)

3. Its not a case of "acting on behalf of Allah". In that case who gave you the authority to speak on any religious matter on these forums; who are you ? and what about everybody else ? We have been instructed by Allah to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. The Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) stated to change evil with our hands, if not then with our tongues, if not then hate it in our hearts (which is the weakest of faith).

If I am able to respond with authentic evidence, in the form of the Quran and sunnah, against mocking/insulting the sunnah VIA THIS FORUM, then INSHA'ALLAH I will do so.

4. Instead of cheap, juvenile insults why dont respond to the points I make in light of the Quran and authentic ahadeeth. I dont claim to be a scholar or even a student of knowledge, Im a layman like everyone else on this forum. I try to post evidence from the Quran and Sunnah when it relates to Islamic issues and you should do the same.

5. And its not about thinking that one person is better than another. I've already addressed this point. Only Allah knows who will end up where. Its advice, its up to people to accept or not. That is what my disclaimer was initially about. Also, a non muslim may advise me to leave Islam and become something else etc; well thats his opinion and I reject it for the following reasons etc.

6. I have the right to speak as other members; if certain members have no problem with people mocking the sunnah then they should NOT have any issues with people who are trying to advise them to stop. To a have a problem with that is a hypocritical and ignorant position in my view.

Allah knows best.

[azhar329]

@azhar329
Salaamualaykum
Dont let these clowns put you down brother,wallahi you've spoken the haq.keep it up insha allah

disclaimer: same

jkAllah khair bro, may Allah guide us all, ameen.

[DeadlyVenom]

What is the disclaimer you are posting btw?

[azhar329]

What is the disclaimer you are posting btw?

disclaimer: same


It was initially posted in the "church thread" and I added to it in the "apologist" thread.

Allah knows best

[Momo]

azhar's disclaimer: The author is a wannabe Arab. :)

[azhar329]

azhar's disclaimer: The author is a wannabe Arab. :)

Disclaimer: same


What a sad, pathetic individual you really are.

May Allah give you what you deserve for mocking the sunnah.


Allha knows best

[Momo]

In the taseer thread you said you havent mocked Islam.

READ MY LAST POST, IT CLEARLY SHOWS PROOF.
It doesn't. If you don't know what proof means, that's not my problem.

The threads are there, nobody forced you to type what you did. And what you have written is denial of the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the appearance of Imam Mahdi.

This is a trait of the Qadiyanis. By denying the return of Prophet Eesa (as) you have rejected Allah's Words relating to Prophet Eesa (as) and you have rejected authentic, universally accepted ahadeeth on this matter and the Mahdi.
You are a liar. Allah never said Isa (as) will return.

As for Qadianis, well they also say we should read namaz. I hope you are not against that too. :)


You are a liar and lack shame. Despite compelling, substantial evidence you still falsely claim to have said nothing and have "immense respect". Denying the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the appearance of the Mahdi is not immense respect, it is KUFR.
No it's not. You are the one who doesn't know what he is talking about. La'anatullahi alal kaazibeen.

May Allah save the muslims from your evil and may He give you what you deserve, ameen.

And if come out with " I do believe in the return etc" then make tawbah publically as your jahil, false statements were made in public as well.
Why should I make taubah for not believing in fairy tales? I refuse to do so. You may go back to your cave now. :)

[azhar329]

disclaimer: same


See taseer thread, my last post.



Allah knows best

[azhar329]

disclaimer: same


Just to add,

PLS see:

Taseer thread- my posts 67 and 75

Hadith rejectors thread- my post 19


Allah knows best

[zimmz]

To avoid going in circles it's a good practice for new members to first search old threads and read them in detail before advancing the arguments. Just for convenience I list here four threads from the past involving almost all of current members discussing the topic.

Coming of MAHDI A.S
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=95100

The Advent Of 'Isa (pbuh)
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=85484

The Advent Of 'Isa (pbuh) Part 2
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=95820

Return of Christ Jesus
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=117645

[azhar329]

disclaimer: same



@zimmz; appreciate the gesture.


But this whole episode evolved from the "wannabe" thread. He has also made remarks in other threads and I responded. He said that he didnt mock the sunnah, immensely respected the sunnah and hadith and wanted an apology from me.

In any event he has made his position crystal clear ie he believes the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the Mahdi are fairytales (audhubillah). He is a confused individual as he equates the latter false belief with having immense respect for the sunnah and hadith.

May Allah guide us all, ameen.

Allah knows best.

[zimmz]

In any event he has made his position crystal clear ie he believes the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the Mahdi are fairytales (audhubillah). He is a confused individual as he equates the latter false belief with having immense respect for the sunnah and hadith.


I am sure momo bro can clear his stanse for himself. Just want to say you are getting too carried away on the topic of Isa and mahdi. Momo and many others have this stance based on their understanding of Quran and hadith. No need to call them kafir or qadiyani or whatever. (Dis)Believing in possible return of Isa (or mahdi) is not part of basic Iman that make us muslims. Even if it was clearly mentioned in Quran then how does retuirn of Isa affect the Iman for those who will pass away before Isa's coming? Think logically here. Infact being focus too much on potential events in future we tend to be lazy and literally hope for someone to come and fix things. Why not just focus on your life and if in your life Isa return then you'll see the effect.

In most of the history of Islam we muslims just focused on things which are not important for Iman and as a result we are divided and in dire state.

[Momo]

Disclaimer: same


What a sad, pathetic individual you really are.

May Allah give you what you deserve for mocking the sunnah.


Allha knows best
Having contempt for your ignorant self-righteous attitude is different from mocking sunnat, you know. :)

[khan-92]

Momo so do you believe that Isa(as) has died? and what do you make of these verses of the Qu'ran?

Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (Surat an-Nisa’: 158)


He (‘Isa) is a Sign of the Hour. Have no doubt about it. But follow me. This is a straight path. (Surat az-Zukhruf: 61)

We know that ‘Isa (as) lived six centuries before the Qur’an was revealed. Therefore, this verse must refer, not to his first life, but to his coming again during the End Times


There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him ('Isa) before he dies; and on the Day of Rising he will be a witness against them. (Surat an-Nisa’: 159)

We learn clearly from this verse that there are still three unfilled promises concerning ‘Isa (as). First, like every other human being, the Prophet ‘Isa (as) will die. Second, all the People of the Book will see him in bodily form and will obey him while he is alive. There is no doubt that these two predictions will be fulfilled when ‘Isa (as) comes again before the Last Day. The third prediction about ‘Isa (as)'s bearing witness against the People of the Book will be fulfilled on the Last Day.

Peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die and the day I am raised up again alive. (Surah Maryam: 33)

When we compare this verse with the 55th verse of Surah Al ‘Imran, we can recognize a very important fact. The verse in Surah Al ‘Imran speaks about ‘Isa (as)’s being raised to the presence of Allah. In this verse, no information is given as to whether ‘Isa (as) died or not. But in the 33rd verse of Surah Maryam, ‘Isa (as)’s death is referred to. This second death is possible only if ‘Isa (as) came to earth again and died after living here for some time. (Allah surely knows best)

Another verse that alludes to ‘Isa (as)’s return to earth reads:

He will teach him ('Isa) the Book and Wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. (Surah Al ‘Imran: 48)

To understand the reference to the “Book” mentioned in this verse, we must look at other verses in the Qur’an that are relevant to this subject: if the Book is stated in one verse together with the Torah and the Gospel, then it must mean the Qur’an. The third verse of Surah Al ‘Imran serves as such an example:

Allah, there is no god but Him, the Living, the Self-Sustaining. He has sent down the Book to you with truth, confirming what has there before it. And He sent down the Torah and the Gospel, previously, as guidance for mankind, and He has sent down the Furqan (the Criterion of judgement between right and wrong). (Surah Al ‘Imran: 2-4)

In that case, the book referred to in verse 48, that ‘Isa (as) is to learn, can only be the Qur’an. We know that ‘Isa (as) knew the Torah and the Gospel during his lifetime, that is, approximately 2000 years ago. Clearly, it will be the Qur’an that he will learn when he comes to earth again.

What verse 59 of Surah Al ‘Imran offers is very interesting: “The likeness of ‘Isa in Allah’s sight is the same as Adam…” In this verse we can see there must be a number of similarities between the two prophets. As we know, both Adam and ‘Isa (as) had no father, but we may draw a further similarity from the above verse, between Adam’s descending to earth from Paradise and ‘Isa (as)’s descent from Allah’s presence in the End Times.

[Momo]

Taseer thread- my posts 67 and 75

azhar's post #67 in the Salman Taseer thread:
Confirmation from your filthy tongue again! Doesnt believe in the return of Prophet Eesa (as) and the Mahdi! La hawla wa la quwatta illah billah!!!

A trait of the qadiyanis!

Allah tells us in the Quran that Prophet Eesa was not killed. (Therefore, he will return). You denying his return confirms the fact that you do not believe in that part of the Quran

Denying the return is KUFR.

My advice to everyone is not to take your deen from this jahil who doesnt believe in part of the Quran.

May Allah give you what you deserve.
My reply (post #69) same thread:
It's a lie. Shame on you. Stop lying about the contents of the Quran. The Quran never says Easa was not killed. It merely says, "They neither killed him, nor crucified him (they meaning the people who claimed they had killed the Messiah)."
azhar's post #75 (reply to the above post of mine)
What a sly jahil you really are! Post all the Ayat and the next one; You are the cut and paste jahil.

Allah says (as translated) Quran, Surah 4

Verse 157: "And (for) their saying "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but (another) was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."

Verse 158: " Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise."

This proves that Prophet Eesa (as) was not killed and will return.

And the fact that you refer to his return and the Mahdi's return as fairy tales is another confirmation of insulting and mocking the sunnah.

Subhan'Allah, may Allah keep the muslims safe from your filthy tongue, ameen.
The debate will continue here. :)

[Momo]

What a sly jahil you really are! Post all the Ayat and the next one; You are the cut and paste jahil.

Allah says (as translated) Quran, Surah 4

Verse 157: "And (for) their saying "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but (another) was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."

Verse 158: " Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise."

This proves that Prophet Eesa (as) was not killed and will return.

And the fact that you refer to his return and the Mahdi's return as fairy tales is another confirmation of insulting and mocking the sunnah.

Subhan'Allah, may Allah keep the muslims safe from your filthy tongue, ameen.
There we go again. The verses don't say "Easa was not killed." They merely say, "They didn't kill him." (The "they" means people who falsely claimed that they had killed the Rasool of Allah.)

As far as his return is concerned, there is no mention whatsoever in the verses you have quoted (in fact there is no mention in the whole of Quran). So the verses don't prove either of the things you are asserting. Stop lying, and stop presenting Allah's words in a distorted way just to prove your silly points.

Sharam karo!

[Momo]

Hadith rejectors thread- my post 19
Which thread would that be? The silly one that died? :)))

[Momo]

See taseer thread, my last post.
See taseer thread, my second last post. :afridi

[Momo]

Momo so do you believe that Isa(as) has died? and what do you make of these verses of the Qu'ran?

Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (Surat an-Nisa’: 158)


He (‘Isa) is a Sign of the Hour. Have no doubt about it. But follow me. This is a straight path. (Surat az-Zukhruf: 61)

We know that ‘Isa (as) lived six centuries before the Qur’an was revealed. Therefore, this verse must refer, not to his first life, but to his coming again during the End Times


There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him ('Isa) before he dies; and on the Day of Rising he will be a witness against them. (Surat an-Nisa’: 159)

We learn clearly from this verse that there are still three unfilled promises concerning ‘Isa (as). First, like every other human being, the Prophet ‘Isa (as) will die. Second, all the People of the Book will see him in bodily form and will obey him while he is alive. There is no doubt that these two predictions will be fulfilled when ‘Isa (as) comes again before the Last Day. The third prediction about ‘Isa (as)'s bearing witness against the People of the Book will be fulfilled on the Last Day.

Peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die and the day I am raised up again alive. (Surah Maryam: 33)

When we compare this verse with the 55th verse of Surah Al ‘Imran, we can recognize a very important fact. The verse in Surah Al ‘Imran speaks about ‘Isa (as)’s being raised to the presence of Allah. In this verse, no information is given as to whether ‘Isa (as) died or not. But in the 33rd verse of Surah Maryam, ‘Isa (as)’s death is referred to. This second death is possible only if ‘Isa (as) came to earth again and died after living here for some time. (Allah surely knows best)

Another verse that alludes to ‘Isa (as)’s return to earth reads:

He will teach him ('Isa) the Book and Wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. (Surah Al ‘Imran: 48)

To understand the reference to the “Book” mentioned in this verse, we must look at other verses in the Qur’an that are relevant to this subject: if the Book is stated in one verse together with the Torah and the Gospel, then it must mean the Qur’an. The third verse of Surah Al ‘Imran serves as such an example:

Allah, there is no god but Him, the Living, the Self-Sustaining. He has sent down the Book to you with truth, confirming what has there before it. And He sent down the Torah and the Gospel, previously, as guidance for mankind, and He has sent down the Furqan (the Criterion of judgement between right and wrong). (Surah Al ‘Imran: 2-4)

In that case, the book referred to in verse 48, that ‘Isa (as) is to learn, can only be the Qur’an. We know that ‘Isa (as) knew the Torah and the Gospel during his lifetime, that is, approximately 2000 years ago. Clearly, it will be the Qur’an that he will learn when he comes to earth again.

What verse 59 of Surah Al ‘Imran offers is very interesting: “The likeness of ‘Isa in Allah’s sight is the same as Adam…” In this verse we can see there must be a number of similarities between the two prophets. As we know, both Adam and ‘Isa (as) had no father, but we may draw a further similarity from the above verse, between Adam’s descending to earth from Paradise and ‘Isa (as)’s descent from Allah’s presence in the End Times.
Sorry but I will only comment on your posts if you compose them yourself, instead of wholesale copy-paste jobs from sites such as www.endoftimes.net. :talha

[Tapori]

Momo with some standard line and length. :gul

[azhar329]

There we go again. The verses don't say "Easa was not killed." They merely say, "They didn't kill him." (The "they" means people who falsely claimed that they had killed the Rasool of Allah.)

As far as his return is concerned, there is no mention whatsoever in the verses you have quoted (in fact there is no mention in the whole of Quran). So the verses don't prove either of the things you are asserting. Stop lying, and stop presenting Allah's words in a distorted way just to prove your silly points.

Sharam karo!

Disclaimer: same

Why do you selectively read even though the whole evidence in the form of verses from the Quran are present ?

Surah 4, Verse 157 refutes the claims of the jews that they killed Prophet Eesa (as).

Verse 158 (as translated) Allah says " Rather, Allah raised him to Himself, and ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise." Meaning, Prophet Eesa (as) was raised up and not killed by ANYONE!

And the proof from the Noble Quran that Prophet Eesa (as) will return;

Surah 43, Verses 61 (as translated) Allah says;

"And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgement): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way."

These ARE CONCLUSIVE PROOFS FROM THE QURAN that Eesa (as) has not died, been killed etc, he (as) is alive and will return to the earth.

There are several ahadeeth from Imams Bukhari and Muslim (and others) relating to the return of Prophet Eesa (as). The return of Eesa (as) is one of the Greater Signs of the Hour and since you dont believe in his return and the appearance of the Mahdi it may be safe to assume that you deny that he will rule in accordance with the Sharia and kill the dajjal etc

But you do not regard these authentic ahadeeth as proof which shows YOU ARE A LIAR WHEN YOU STATED THAT YOU HAVE "IMMENSE RESPECT FOR SUNNAT AND HADEES" (similiar words).

You lack shame, you reject authentic ahadeeth, you deny the return of Eesa (as) and the appearance of the Mahdi and call them "fairy tales" and its not a "big deal" that you dont believe in it thereby mocking established Islamic beliefs and you mocked the sunnah.


May Allah save the muslims from your filthy tongue, ameen.


Allah knows best

[Momo]

azhar: I will comment on your latest "proof" (Post #125) but first you will have to acknowledge that the "proofs" you presented earlier, i.e. verses 157 and 158 of An-Nisa (see my posts #119 amd #120) weren't good enough.

In fact you tied to twist the words of Allah by concluding that the verses proved that "Eesa (as) was not killed and will return (your words)" while the verses said no such thing. In fact you tried to pass this distortion twice (see my posts #119 and #120).

First you will have to acknowledge your false claims, and then we will move forward, and can make progress, inshallah. Otherwise it's just a useless exercise really.

And remember, La'anatullahi alal kaazibeen.

[azhar329]

azhar: I will comment on your latest "proof" (Post #125) but first you will have to acknowledge that the "proofs" you presented earlier, i.e. verses 157 and 158 of An-Nisa (see my posts #119 amd #120) weren't good enough.

In fact you tied to twist the words of Allah by concluding that the verses proved that "Eesa (as) was not killed and will return (your words)" while the verses said no such thing. In fact you tried to pass this distortion twice (see my posts #119 and #120).

First you will have to acknowledge your false claims, and then we will move forward, and can make progress, inshallah. Otherwise it's just a useless exercise really.

And remember, La'anatullahi alal kaazibeen.

Disclaimer@:same

Surah 4 Verse 157 states that they did not kill Eesa (as) and Verse 158 (which is in reference to 157) states that Eesa (as) was raised by Allah to Himself. This is a CLEAR, CLEAR Ayah stating that Eesa (as) was raised and NOT killed.

This is unversally accepted by all muslims regardless of their school of thought, however, it is a belief of the qadiyanis that Eesa (as) died. There is no proof in the Quran and authentic sunnah thatstates that Eesa (as) died, absolutely no where. Conversely, there are narrations upon narrations in authentic ahadeeth which CATEGORICALLY state that he will return.

I will not accept your premise that in order for the debate to continue I must accept that Verses 157, 158 do not prove that he has not died. Those two Ayat with the following one I posted, and in conjunction with all the ahadeeth are ABSOLUTE PROOF that Eesa (as) was not killed and will return to the earth.

And your rejection of ahadeeth (including those by Imams Bukhari and Muslim) fly in the face of your claim that you have immense respect for the sunnah and hadeeth. The above two Imams are known throughout the muslim world for compiling authentic ahadeeth and for you to reject this indicates your lack of knowledge.

And you're accusing me of twisting the words of Allah in relation to those Ayaat?!!! Astaghfirullah. Almost all the muslim world accepts that Eesa (as) as not being killed and will return; (qadiyanis are an exception). This is not a matter in which there is ijtihad.

There is CRYSTAL, CONCLUSIVE, CLEAR PROOF about the return of Eesa (as) and the fact that he was not KILLED. At the end of the day either you will accept the substantial proofs cited or not. In any event, please refrain from mocking/insulting the sunnah by referring to them as "fairytales" and words of such nature. This does NOT show the immense respect you claim to have for the sunnah and hadeeth.

(By the way@zimmz; just to clarify I didnt call momo a qadiyani I said he had a trait of the qadiyanis which is that they both belive that Eesa (as) is dead (audhubillah). And I didnt say that he is a kafir, but that mocking/insulting Islam is kufr. There is a difference.)

May Allah guide us all, ameen.

Allah knows best

[Momo]

azhar329:

You had stated after presenting verses 157 and 158 that the two verses proved that Isa was not killed and that he will return (see my post #120 above which quotes this post of yours).

I will only move forward when you acknowledge that verses 157 and 158 do NOT prove that Isa was not killed and that he will return. They merely prove that the people who claimed they had killed him were wrong. There's no mention whatsoever of a return here.

Swallow your false pride and be honest while debating with me. If you insist on standing by your lies, I am not interested in debating this issue any further with you. La'anatullahi alal kaazibeen.

If you acknowledge that your claim was false, then I will be happy to discuss the next piece of evidence you provide. If we don't discard useless evidence as we go along, there is no point debating anything.

And if you choose to stand by your twisting of Allah's words, well then shame on you. :butt

[azhar329]

azhar329:

You had stated after presenting verses 157 and 158 that the two verses proved that Isa was not killed and that he will return (see my post #120 above which quotes this post of yours).

I will only move forward when you acknowledge that verses 157 and 158 do NOT prove that Isa was not killed and that he will return. They merely prove that the people who claimed they had killed him were wrong. There's no mention whatsoever of a return here.

Swallow your false pride and be honest while debating with me. If you insist on standing by your lies, I am not interested in debating this issue any further with you. La'anatullahi alal kaazibeen.

If you acknowledge that your claim was false, then I will be happy to discuss the next piece of evidence you provide. If we don't discard useless evidence as we go along, there is no point debating anything.

And if you choose to stand by your lie and your twisting of Allah's words, well then shame on you. :butt

Disclaimer: same

What you are asking me to do is something like this; (hypothetcial example): a non muslim saying to a muslim "first you have to agree that the Quran is not the word of Allah, then we can move on and discuss whether there is a Creator or not ?"

The above makes no sense whatsoever!

ALL 3 VERSES ARE to do with:

4, 157- saving Eesa (as)
4, 158 -raising Eesa (as)
43, 61 -return of Eesa (as)

Its not logical to say "agree you are wrong on the first two and then we can discuss the third"! All three Verses are intertwined and support each other.

What do you think Verse 158 means ?

Where in the Quran and authentic ahadeeth is it mentioned that Eesa (as) died ?

Answer the above two questions please.


By saying Eesa (as) died you are rejecting the above Verses of the Quran. These Verses since the time of the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) have meant one thing: EESA (AS) DID NOT DIE AND WILL RETURN.

Only a deviant person would suggest that he died and will not return etc. Anyway, All Praise is for Allah, who has exposed your filthy and unIslamic position in relation to Eesa (as) and the Mahdi. If you do not wish to continue then that is your choice; It clearly indicates that you are unable to support your false position.

ANSWER THE ABOVE TWO QUESTIONS.


My advice to you is to rid yourself of a trait of the qadiyanis, and to make tawbah.


And only Allah knows best

[NJamal]

@ Momo- We all know that it is the basic belief of Qadyanis that Hazrat Isa (AS) will not return to this world. As you had denied to be a Qadyani before on this forum so it makes me confuse that how can your beliefs are so close to that of a Qadyani. To make things easier can you please answer the following question in YES or NO?

Do you consider Mirza Ghulam as a LIAR or not?

Just answer in YES or NO.

[zimmz]

Hope it won't distract the ongoing debate so I can try to break the dead lock (unnecessarly created by Azhar side). [I must mentioned that I am neutral on this issue since I rarely focused on it mainly because I don't consider it important part of Iman. Have heard all sort fo claims from both sides but didn't try to verify them on my own.]

4-157 (death)

1) They didn't not kill Isa. This only proves that those who claimed to kill Isa didn't actually kill Isa at that moment.
2) The above doesn't mean Isa was not died later. We have to look for other (counter)evidences to verify if Isa died or not later on?

4-158 (possible return)

This verse has to be translated carefully (due to different meanings of the arabic words involved). But let's take the common understanding that is Isa was raised (transported up) to heavens. How can one conclude that he will return? Or he is alive or dead up there?

So Azhar you should think about it and accept the argument from Momo that these two verses do not prove that Isa NEVER died and that Isa will return. There is a clear distinction between 'not killed at particular moment' and 'NEVER died', and between 'raised alive/dead' and 'will return'.

On the other hand Azahar you have good questions so let's wait for momo bro to answer them (only if you acknowledge that your claim of the above two verses was wrong).

Your questions:

What do you think Verse 158 means ?

Where in the Quran and authentic ahadeeth is it mentioned that Eesa (as) died ?

I think I have seen verses where Isa himself saying 'when I died' but let's wait for others to explain.

As for 43-61 the debate is ongoing and I have not much to add on it.

[zimmz]

@ Momo- We all know that it is the basic belief of Qadyanis that Hazrat Isa (AS) will not return to this world. As you had denied to be a Qadyani before on this forum so it makes me confuse that how can your beliefs are so close to that of a Qadyani. To make things easier can you please answer the following question in YES or NO?

Do you consider Mirza Ghulam as a LIAR or not?

Just answer in YES or NO.

Why must we based our understanding of Quran always on the interpretation of certain group? For your info there are many non-qadiyanis who have there own understanding of the events related to Isa. Moreover Qadiyanis had their own agenda to disprove the return of Isa and that is to call mirza himself a reincarnation of Isa and mahdi both in one (claimed by Mirza himself in hs books).

[NJamal]

Why must we based our understanding of Quran always on the interpretation of certain group? For your info there are many non-qadiyanis who have there own understanding of the events related to Isa. Moreover Qadiyanis had their own agenda to disprove the return of Isa and that is to call mirza himself a reincarnation of Isa and mahdi both in one (claimed by Mirza himself in hs books).

Can you point out that which Non- Qadyani groups are having different understanding regarding Hazrat Isa (AS) and his return?

[Momo]

azhar:

Nice try but wrong analogy. :butt

Do you believe that verses 157 and 158 of An-Nisa prove that Hazrat Isa was not only not killed, he will also return?

Yes or no? :)

[Momo]

Hope it won't distract the ongoing debate so I can try to break the dead lock (unnecessarly created by Azhar side). [I must mentioned that I am neutral on this issue since I rarely focused on it mainly because I don't consider it important part of Iman. Have heard all sort fo claims from both sides but didn't try to verify them on my own.]

4-157 (death)

1) They didn't not kill Isa. This only proves that those who claimed to kill Isa didn't actually kill Isa at that moment.
2) The above doesn't mean Isa was not died later. We have to look for other (counter)evidences to verify if Isa died or not later on?

4-158 (possible return)

This verse has to be translated carefully (due to different meanings of the arabic words involved). But let's take the common understanding that is Isa was raised (transported up) to heavens. How can one conclude that he will return? Or he is alive or dead up there?

So Azhar you should think about it and accept the argument from Momo that these two verses do not prove that Isa NEVER died and that Isa will return. There is a clear distinction between 'not killed at particular moment' and 'NEVER died', and between 'raised alive/dead' and 'will return'.

On the other hand Azahar you have good questions so let's wait for momo bro to answer them (only if you acknowledge that your claim of the above two verses was wrong).

Your questions:



I think I have seen verses where Isa himself saying 'when I died' but let's wait for others to explain.

As for 43-61 the debate is ongoing and I have not much to add on it.
Very good post, zimmz. :14:

Extremely well summed up!

[NJamal]

Behold! The angel said: “O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a word from Him: His name will be Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter and of the company of those nearest to Allah. He shall speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity of age. He shall be from amongst the righteous”.(Qur’an 3 : 46).

Then Allah will say: “O Jesus, son of Mary! Recount My favour to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit so that you did speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity of age. Behold! I taught you the Book and the Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel.”(Qur’an, Chapter 5:110).

In these two verses the most important statement is that Hazrat Isa (AS) would speak to the people in his maturity and this fact has been referred to in these verses as a miracle of Hazrat Isa (AS) and a special bounty of Allah on him. It may be pointed out that speaking in childhood while one is still in the cradle is undoubtedly a miracle and a great bounty of Allah on Hazrat Isa (AS).

Even some of the so-called apocryphal Gospels described him as preaching the divine message while still an infant. But the second part of the statement that he would speak in the maturity of his age is not even worth mentioning in normal conditions.The fact that it has been repeatedly highlighted in the Quran show that in the context of Hazrat Isa (AS) it is a miracle and is not an ordinary event. We know that the formal prophetic career of Hazrat Isa (AS) lasted only about three years, from 30 to 33 years old. This shows that he could not reach the age of maturity (in Arabic,Kuhulah) which is normally taken to be after mid-forties. This clearly shows that for him the speech in the age of Kuhulah is yet to come and hence its extraordinary nature.

[Momo]

@ Momo- We all know that it is the basic belief of Qadyanis that Hazrat Isa (AS) will not return to this world. As you had denied to be a Qadyani before on this forum so it makes me confuse that how can your beliefs are so close to that of a Qadyani.
And what do you think the beliefs of Qadianis regarding the return of Hazrat Isa are? :)

To make things easier can you please answer the following question in YES or NO?

Do you consider Mirza Ghulam as a LIAR or not?

Just answer in YES or NO.
I cannot confidently say whether he was a liar or had a screw loose somewhere. Allah jaane.

That said, as far as I am concerned his numerous claims about his being the maseeh/prophet/maseel-e-maseeh, etc, make no sense whatsoever. I repudiate and disown those claims.

[Momo]

We know that the formal prophetic career of Hazrat Isa (AS) lasted only about three years, from 30 to 33 years old. This shows that he could not reach the age of maturity (in Arabic,Kuhulah) which is normally taken to be after mid-forties. This clearly shows that for him the speech in the age of Kuhulah is yet to come and hence its extraordinary nature.
Do we?

[Blade]

I like how some deluded posters here think they know more than Imam Muhammad al-Bukhari or Imam Abu Ḥanifa

[NJamal]

I like how some deluded posters here think they know more than Imam Muhammad al-Bukhari or Imam Abu Ḥanifa

Not only these here is the list of Sahabah who had reported the Ahadith on the return of Hazrat Isa (AS):

1. Abu Hurairah
2. Jabir ibn Abdullah
3. Nawwas ibn San’an
4. Abdullah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘As
5. Hudhaifah ibn Asid al-Ghifari
6.Thawban (A freed slave; Personal attendant of the Holy Prophet).
7. Mujammi’ ibn Jariyah
8. Abu Umamah al-Bahili
9. Abdullah ibn Mas’ud, a prominent scholar and jurist among the Companions
10. Uthman ibn Abi’l-‘As
11. Samurah ibn Jundab
12. Abdullah ibn Umar (son of the second Caliph)
13. Anas ibn Malik (a personal attendant of the Holy Prophet)
14. Wathilah ibn Aqsa’
15. Abdullah ibn Salam (a scholar of Jewish scriptures)
16. Abdullah ibn Abbas (a well-known scholar among theCompanions, a cousin of the Holy Prophet).
17. Aws ibn Aws al Thaqafi
18. Imran ibn Hussian
19. ‘Aishah, the Mother of the Faithful, wife of the Holy Prophet
20. Safinah, a freed slave of the Holy Prophet
21. Hudhaifah ibn al-Yaman
22. Abdullah ibn Mughaffal
23. Abd al-Rahman ibn Samurah
24. Abu Sa'id Al Khudri.
25. Ammar ibn Yasir
26. Ka san ibn Tariq
27. Salamah ibn Nufail al-Sakuni
28. Safiyyah, Mother of the Faithful, wife of the Holy Prophet.
29. Nafi’ ibn Kaisan
30. Abu’l-Darda’.
31. Amr ibn Awf al-Muzani
32. Umm Salamah, Mother of the Faithful, wife of the Holy Prophet

[NJamal]

Do we?

Yes I know, don't know about you though. Answer the main subject raised in my post don't create questions out of nothing.

[Momo]

Yes I know, don't know about you though. Answer the main subject raised in my post don't create questions out of nothing.
But this is a very crucial question. Without this, your "main subject" is nothing.

I'll ask again: How do we know Isa (as) lived up to the age of 33?

[azhar329]

Hope it won't distract the ongoing debate so I can try to break the dead lock (unnecessarly created by Azhar side). [I must mentioned that I am neutral on this issue since I rarely focused on it mainly because I don't consider it important part of Iman. Have heard all sort fo claims from both sides but didn't try to verify them on my own.]

4-157 (death)

1) They didn't not kill Isa. This only proves that those who claimed to kill Isa didn't actually kill Isa at that moment.
2) The above doesn't mean Isa was not died later. We have to look for other (counter)evidences to verify if Isa died or not later on?

4-158 (possible return)

This verse has to be translated carefully (due to different meanings of the arabic words involved). But let's take the common understanding that is Isa was raised (transported up) to heavens. How can one conclude that he will return? Or he is alive or dead up there?

So Azhar you should think about it and accept the argument from Momo that these two verses do not prove that Isa NEVER died and that Isa will return. There is a clear distinction between 'not killed at particular moment' and 'NEVER died', and between 'raised alive/dead' and 'will return'.

On the other hand Azahar you have good questions so let's wait for momo bro to answer them (only if you acknowledge that your claim of the above two verses was wrong).

Your questions:



I think I have seen verses where Isa himself saying 'when I died' but let's wait for others to explain.

As for 43-61 the debate is ongoing and I have not much to add on it.

Disclaimer: same.

1. You said that you dont consider it an important part of your Iman. In my view this is incorrect. One of the six Pillars of Iman is belief in Allah's Messengers (peace be on them all). That entails believing in their message, statements etc. You may have an individual who believes in the Messengers and then goes on to say that there is another prophet eg Qadiyanis etc. Therefore, we have to not only believe in the Messengers but ALSO have the correct belief about them, their lives, message, statements etc. In that sense, it does affect your Iman (in my view).

2. Again to be clear Verse 157 clearly states that they did not kill Eesa (as).

Verse 158 states that Allah raised Eesa to Himself. This means that he was not killed AT ALL BUT RAISED UP. (SIMPLE).

3. Surah 43/61 states that Eesa (as) will be a Sign of the Hour. This means he will return. This fact has been supported by numerous ahadeeth. The Hour is in the future and only Allah knows best when it will be. This Verse states that Eesa will be a Sign of the Hour (via his return to the earth).

Please read those two points again.

Also, can you please show your references where Eesa (as) states that he died (audhubillah). No disrespect, you should check whether your copy of the Quran is not a qadiyani version.

And why do you reject the ahadeeth by Imams Bukhari and Muslim in relation to this matter and (maybe) accept others which are attributed to them ? (unless you reject ahadeeth altogether).

And to reinforce what njamal requested: who else apart from the qadiyanis believes that Eesa (as) died ?

This is a serious topic as it invloves:

a) Rejecting Allah's statement that Eesa (as) was raised up.
b) Rejecting the belief that he will return.
c) Rejecting numerous authentic ahadeeth about the return of Eesa (as) and the Signs of the Hour.
d) Rejecting the appearance of Imam Mahdi.
e) Going against the consensus of all the scholars throughout the muslim world only to side with the qadiyanis on this matter. The latter should be enough to be a cause for alarm and serious reflection.

Please answer the above questions. Thank you.

And Allah knows best

[NJamal]

But this is a very crucial question. Without this, your "main subject" is nothing.

I'll ask again: How do we know Isa (as) lived up to the age of 33?

It is a historical fact that Hazrat Isa(AS) spent 33 years in this World. Christians as well as Muslim and all the other historians are of the view that he was allegedly crucified at the age of 33. Make some research yourself as I don't like to give links :momo.

[Momo]

It is a historical fact that Hazrat Isa(AS) spent 33 years in this World. Christians as well as Muslim and all the other historians are of the view that he was allegedly crucified at the age of 33. Make some research yourself as I don't like to give links :momo.
Not true at all. This is by no means a "historical fact."

So your "main subject" means absolutely nothing. :)

[Mohsin]

Is it this guy? :)

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Swevac0Qink" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:))):))) I never get sick of this...the way he starts reciting Surah Fatiha (in a 'see im 'speaking' Arabic' kinda tone) when said Mahdi will be able to speak Arabic :)):))

And the guys reaction behind him LOOOL

[azhar329]

Disclaimer: same.

1. You said that you dont consider it an important part of your Iman. In my view this is incorrect. One of the six Pillars of Iman is belief in Allah's Messengers (peace be on them all). That entails believing in their message, statements etc. You may have an individual who believes in the Messengers and then goes on to say that there is another prophet eg Qadiyanis etc. Therefore, we have to not only believe in the Messengers but ALSO have the correct belief about them, their lives, message, statements etc. In that sense, it does affect your Iman (in my view).

2. Again to be clear Verse 157 clearly states that they did not kill Eesa (as).

Verse 158 states that Allah raised Eesa to Himself. This means that he was not killed AT ALL BUT RAISED UP. (SIMPLE).

3. Surah 43/61 states that Eesa (as) will be a Sign of the Hour. This means he will return. This fact has been supported by numerous ahadeeth. The Hour is in the future and only Allah knows best when it will be. This Verse states that Eesa will be a Sign of the Hour (via his return to the earth).

Please read those two points again.

Also, can you please show your references where Eesa (as) states that he died (audhubillah). No disrespect, you should check whether your copy of the Quran is not a qadiyani version.

And why do you reject the ahadeeth by Imams Bukhari and Muslim in relation to this matter and (maybe) accept others which are attributed to them ? (unless you reject ahadeeth altogether).

And to reinforce what njamal requested: who else apart from the qadiyanis believes that Eesa (as) died ?

This is a serious topic as it invloves:

a) Rejecting Allah's statement that Eesa (as) was raised up.
b) Rejecting the belief that he will return.
c) Rejecting numerous authentic ahadeeth about the return of Eesa (as) and the Signs of the Hour.
d) Rejecting the appearance of Imam Mahdi.
e) Going against the consensus of all the scholars throughout the muslim world only to side with the qadiyanis on this matter. The latter should be enough to be a cause for alarm and serious reflection.

Please answer the above questions. Thank you.

And Allah knows best

momo/zimmz , can you answer the above qs pls.

[Momo]

azhar: (As stated earlier) As far as I am concerned, you and I will move to other issues only when you address the first issue (my post #134). :)

[azhar329]

azhar: (As stated earlier) As far as I am concerned, you and I will move to other issues only when you address the first issue (my post #134). :)

disclaimer: same.

You've just confirmed your answers, that you dont have any. There is no Islamic evidence to support your false position.

It so simple; I say Eesa (as) didnt die, was raised and will return. I have provided evidence for this.

You say; no he's dead and wont return - BUT HAVE NO AUTHENTIC EVIDENCE!!! YOU HAVENT CITED ANYTHING TO SUPPORT YOUR FALSE POSITION. Nothing at all!!!

I hope you're not going to visit your local qadiyani centre and ask them to assist you with some fabricated statements etc!!!

Anyway, if you want to leave it there, then All Praise is for Allah that you will cease to post any more nonsense re: this matter.

May Allah guide all those who have read this thread to the correct position inshaAllah, ameen.

Allah knows best.

[Momo]

azhar: It's obvious you are not man enough to swallow false pride and you will continue insisting on distorting Allah's words. Shame on you.

La'antullahi alal kaazibeen.

[Momo]

I hope you're not going to visit your local qadiyani centre and ask them to assist you with some fabricated statements etc!!!
La'anatullahi alal kaazibeen. :)

Anyway, if you want to leave it there, then All Praise is for Allah that you will cease to post any more nonsense re: this matter.
So you think I will not post on this matter any more? I am afraid you will be very disappointed in this regard. Just as you will be disappointed by the no-show of Mahdi saab.:fawad

[NJamal]

Not true at all. This is by no means a "historical fact."

So your "main subject" means absolutely nothing. :)

So what is the truth then Mulana Momo?

[Momo]

So what is the truth then Mulana Momo?
I just told you, Mullah ji. This is not a historical fact. :)

[NJamal]

I just told you, Mullah ji. This is not a historical fact. :)

I am asking then you tell me how much time Hazrat (AS) spent in this world or are you completely denying the presence of him? Maulana saab.

[Momo]

I am asking then you tell me how much time Hazrat (AS) spent in this world or are you completely denying the presence of him? Maulana saab.
Mullah NJamal, it is not at all clear how much time he spent. Could be anything from thirty to about fifty (even this is a rough range). Allah jaane. The point is, 33 (as his age) is not a historical fact at all.

He is mentioned in the Qur'an. I don't know about you but I don't deny the existence of people mentioned in the Qur'an, Mullah NJamal. :)

[NJamal]

Mullah NJamal, it is not at all clear how much time he spent. Could be anything from thirty to about fifty (even this is a rough range). Allah jaane. The point is, 33 (as his age) is not a historical fact at all.

He is mentioned in the Qur'an. I don't know about you but I don't deny the existence of people mentioned in the Qur'an, Mullah NJamal. :)

Could be? LOL

You genius Momo when you don't have enough knowledge about a particular thing then its better for your health to just keep quiet and don't post your rubbish knowledge. I know it is too difficult for you but try it maybe you would succeed. I pity the students whom you teach.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Disclaimer: same.

1. You said that you dont consider it an important part of your Iman. In my view this is incorrect. One of the six Pillars of Iman is belief in Allah's Messengers (peace be on them all). That entails believing in their message, statements etc. You may have an individual who believes in the Messengers and then goes on to say that there is another prophet eg Qadiyanis etc. Therefore, we have to not only believe in the Messengers but ALSO have the correct belief about them, their lives, message, statements etc. In that sense, it does affect your Iman (in my view).

2. Again to be clear Verse 157 clearly states that they did not kill Eesa (as).

Verse 158 states that Allah raised Eesa to Himself. This means that he was not killed AT ALL BUT RAISED UP. (SIMPLE).

3. Surah 43/61 states that Eesa (as) will be a Sign of the Hour. This means he will return. This fact has been supported by numerous ahadeeth. The Hour is in the future and only Allah knows best when it will be. This Verse states that Eesa will be a Sign of the Hour (via his return to the earth).

Please read those two points again.

Also, can you please show your references where Eesa (as) states that he died (audhubillah). No disrespect, you should check whether your copy of the Quran is not a qadiyani version.

And why do you reject the ahadeeth by Imams Bukhari and Muslim in relation to this matter and (maybe) accept others which are attributed to them ? (unless you reject ahadeeth altogether).

And to reinforce what njamal requested: who else apart from the qadiyanis believes that Eesa (as) died ?

This is a serious topic as it invloves:

a) Rejecting Allah's statement that Eesa (as) was raised up.
b) Rejecting the belief that he will return.
c) Rejecting numerous authentic ahadeeth about the return of Eesa (as) and the Signs of the Hour.
d) Rejecting the appearance of Imam Mahdi.
e) Going against the consensus of all the scholars throughout the muslim world only to side with the qadiyanis on this matter. The latter should be enough to be a cause for alarm and serious reflection.

Please answer the above questions. Thank you.

And Allah knows best

Excellent post bro, barakallahu feek.

However, you can not make the deaf hear or the blind see.

[Momo]

Could be? LOL

You genius Momo when you don't have enough knowledge about a particular thing then its better for your health to just keep quiet and don't post your rubbish knowledge. I know it is too difficult for you but try it maybe you would succeed. I pity the students whom you teach.
Yes, could be. Nobody knows exactly. Hence it's not a historical fact.

You, however, claim to know the age to be 33. Therefore the onus of bringing the proof is on you.

My students do remarkably well, as - unlike you - they know when one needs to present proof. :)

[Blade]

I'd love to see Momo's face if Hazrat Isa (AS) returned in our lifetime :))

[Black Zero]

my snap observation:

- momo isn't bright however he is clever to find a weak link and then do one of the followings:
-- Deny
-- Ask questions

- momo, when asked a question, will try to catch the first available escape route.
- Azhar and Njamal are also not bright and they seem unsettled when brought them out of their comfort argument zone.
- Azhar and Njamal, must stop writing big paragraphs, and start arguing point to point briefly ...with focus not to provide an escape route to momo...otherwise it will remain a dead lock.
... There is no need to take an ahmadi line as even one of AlAzhar's principal had similar views.

P.S. MOMO is right about the historical fact...I'll go further one step, actually there is no historically fact that Easa AS even existed

[Blade]

my snap observation:

- momo isn't bright however he is clever to find a weak link and then do one of the followings:
-- Deny
-- Ask questions

- momo, when asked a question, will try to catch the first available escape route.
- Azhar and Njamal are also not bright and they seem unsettled when brought them out of their comfort argument zone.
- Azhar and Njamal, must stop writing big paragraphs, and start arguing point to point briefly ...with focus not to provide an escape route to momo...otherwise it will remain a dead lock.
... There is no need to take an ahmadi line as even one of AlAzhar's principal had similar views.

P.S. MOMO is right about the historical fact...I'll go further one step, actually there is no historically fact that Easa AS even existed


There's this little book called the Quran, you know..the words of Allah?

[Momo]

I'd love to see Mofos face, sorry I mean Momo's face if Hazrat Isa (AS) returned in our lifetime :))
Blade, Hazrt Isa would be proud of you. And Hazrat Muhammad would also be proud of you as his ummati. Not to mention your mother who raised you.

Only if she saw your glorious behaviour here. :)

Aur Allah kitna khush ho raha hoga! Wo to dekh hi raha hai.

[Blade]

Blade, Hazrt Isa would be proud of you. And Hazrat Muhammad would also be proud of you as his ummati. Not to mention your mother who raised you.

Only if she saw your glorious behaviour here. :)

Aur Allah kitna khush ho raha hoga! Wo to dekh hi raha hai.

It was just a joke chill out, this thread doesn't have be so serious lighten up :D

p.s don't talk about my mother.

[KingKhanWC]

Momo has a very perverted version of Islam.

In Medina there is a space availalbe for the grave of Jesus(pbuh).

It's totally idiotic to take the views of some poster on a forum over what is established Islamic belief. :)

[Momo]

It was just a joke chill out, this thread doesn't have be so serious lighten up :D

p.s don't talk about my mother.
She would be proud of you. Lighten up and take a chill pill, buddy! :P

[Blade]

lol ok Momo no worries. I'm going to pray Isha now, and I will make dua for you that you see the light some day. InshaAllah :)

[Momo]

my snap observation:

- momo isn't bright however he is clever to find a weak link and then do one of the followings:
-- Deny
-- Ask questions

- momo, when asked a question, will try to catch the first available escape route.
- Azhar and Njamal are also not bright and they seem unsettled when brought them out of their comfort argument zone.
- Azhar and Njamal, must stop writing big paragraphs, and start arguing point to point briefly ...with focus not to provide an escape route to momo...otherwise it will remain a dead lock.
... There is no need to take an ahmadi line as even one of AlAzhar's principal had similar views.

P.S. MOMO is right about the historical fact...I'll go further one step, actually there is no historically fact that Easa AS even existed
I would go one step further. The only bright bulb at PP is Black Zero alone. And it's a historical fact. :))

[Momo]

lol ok Momo no worries. I'm going to pray Isha now, and I will make dua for you that you see the light some day. InshaAllah :)
Please do that brother. :)

[zimmz]

Can you point out that which Non- Qadyani groups are having different understanding regarding Hazrat Isa (AS) and his return?

Well I don't know the groups people follow but I nhave met/talk/read several people who do not believe in Isa' return. You'll find some here at PP. Only name I heard is some guy called Ghulam Perwaiz who has lot of following and they are not qadiyanis. You can google further information.


1. One of the six Pillars of Iman is belief in Allah's Messengers (peace be on them all). That entails believing in their message, statements etc.

I don't know how this is relevant to the topic of death and return of a given prophet? Anyway for your info believing what Allah has told us is important not what Allah has not told us.


2. Again to be clear Verse 157 clearly states that they did not kill Eesa (as).

Verse 158 states that Allah raised Eesa to Himself. This means that he was not killed AT ALL BUT RAISED UP. (SIMPLE).


Use LOGIC please.

Yes the verse 157 clearly states that they did not kill him. However a person can be dead for any other reasons at any other time (later in case of Isa) or he/she can be killed by someone who does not belong to certain 'they' group which is proven to be non-killers.

As for 158 even if we take the popular translation how can we be certain of events that followed after 'RAISED UP'? If he is alive or not after that is not clear from 158 but other verses apparently answer that clearly.


3. Surah 43/61 states that Eesa (as) will be a Sign of the Hour. This means he will return. This fact has been supported by numerous ahadeeth. The Hour is in the future and only Allah knows best when it will be. This Verse states that Eesa will be a Sign of the Hour (via his return to the earth).


I can't comment with confident about this verse. There are several translations. The translation you used made assumption that the verse talk about Isa by putting his name in brackets. Here is another translation from Picktall.

43-61 (Picktall) And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.

Besides how does the term 'sign/knowledge of the hour' indicates return of some one?

Also, can you please show your references where Eesa (as) states that he died (audhubillah). No disrespect, you should check whether your copy of the Quran is not a qadiyani version.

See the threads I listed. I can't remember the exact verse but I am sure you'll find one in 'Advent of Isa' thread.


And why do you reject the ahadeeth by Imams Bukhari and Muslim in relation to this matter and (maybe) accept others which are attributed to them ? (unless you reject ahadeeth altogether).


Well as always first we should be clear about Quranic references. hadith comes afterwards.

[NJamal]

my snap observation:

- momo isn't bright however he is clever to find a weak link and then do one of the followings:
-- Deny
-- Ask questions

- momo, when asked a question, will try to catch the first available escape route.
- Azhar and Njamal are also not bright and they seem unsettled when brought them out of their comfort argument zone.
- Azhar and Njamal, must stop writing big paragraphs, and start arguing point to point briefly ...with focus not to provide an escape route to momo...otherwise it will remain a dead lock.
... There is no need to take an ahmadi line as even one of AlAzhar's principal had similar views.

P.S. MOMO is right about the historical fact...I'll go further one step, actually there is no historically fact that Easa AS even existed

I agree with you that Momo just asks question and run when he is asked one. He is like going in circles and making questions out of the answers of others.

Regarding me, I never argue for the sake of winning or proving myself as an intellectual person. I just present the truth according to my beliefs and understanding. The rest is for an individual if he believe it or not.

[zimmz]

Could be? LOL


Can you bring a proof that isa lived for 33 years?

I'd love to see Mofos face, sorry I mean Momo's face if Hazrat Isa (AS) returned in our lifetime :))

Wet dream!

I would go one step further. The only bright bulb at PP is Black Zero alone. And it's a historical fact. :))

:)) Zero-watt bulb.

[azhar329]

Well I don't know the groups people follow but I nhave met/talk/read several people who do not believe in Isa' return. You'll find some here at PP. Only name I heard is some guy called Ghulam Perwaiz who has lot of following and they are not qadiyanis. You can google further information.



I don't know how this is relevant to the topic of death and return of a given prophet? Anyway for your info believing what Allah has told us is important not what Allah has not told us.



Use LOGIC please.

Yes the verse 157 clearly states that they did not kill him. However a person can be dead for any other reasons at any other time (later in case of Isa) or he/she can be killed by someone who does not belong to certain 'they' group which is proven to be non-killers.

As for 158 even if we take the popular translation how can we be certain of events that followed after 'RAISED UP'? If he is alive or not after that is not clear from 158 but other verses apparently answer that clearly.



I can't comment with confident about this verse. There are several translations. The translation you used made assumption that the verse talk about Isa by putting his name in brackets. Here is another translation from Picktall.



Besides how does the term 'sign/knowledge of the hour' indicates return of some one?



See the threads I listed. I can't remember the exact verse but I am sure you'll find one in 'Advent of Isa' thread.



Well as always first we should be clear about Quranic references. hadith comes afterwards.

Disclaimer: same

Its clear that you and momo have issues with the ahadeeth of Imams Bukhari and Muslim otherwise this discussion would not have arisen.

Despite these ahadeeth being universally accepted by Ulema all over world it is a tiny, tiny, minute minority who refuse to acknowledge them. If anyone rejects authentic narrations it does become more difficult to convince them of the proper Islamic position as one of the two sources (Quran and sunnah) is not being utilised at all.

It is also clear that even though the Quranic Verses are clear, you will try to find your own way out of not accepting the correct position. (Verses can be manipulated as well).

At the end of the day the evidence has been presented to you and its up to each individual to accept or not.

To reiterate, Im am not calling you/momo kafirs for disbelieving in the return of Eesa (as) and I said to momo "I HOPE " he doesnt go to the qadiyani centre not you will go!!!! He seems to have a problem with reading people's posts; try responding to what was actually written as opposed to what you wished they wrote.

Are you both Quraniyeen ? As you have displayed a TRAIT of that group by rejecting authentic ahadeeth which almost everyone accepts.


And Allah knows best.

[azhar329]

Disclaimer: same


Just wanted to add that it is easier to debate in my view if the paramiters are known eg muslim, non muslim, qadiyani, shia, ismaeli etc

Pls answer this; are you both ahadeeth rejectors ?

If not, who do accept as having compiled authentic ahadeeth eg Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi etc ?


Allah knows best

[zimmz]

It is also clear that even though the Quranic Verses are clear, you will try to find your own way out of not accepting the correct position. (Verses can be manipulated as well).


Sorry to burst your egoistic bubble but your position != correct position. The verses we discuss doesn't make your position correct.
Seems that you are devoid of logic.


Its clear that you and momo have issues with the ahadeeth of Imams Bukhari and Muslim otherwise this discussion would not have arisen.


How it is clear? When your ego is bloated by logical answers for your post, you start diverting the flow of discussion to different direction. Until now we were discussing Quran verses and now that your logic is failing you, you brought in the argument about hadith.

Despite the fact that you have no shame for accepting your logical mis-understanding, bring on each hadtih one by one, inshAllah we can discuss them. Do not copy paste articles please.


At the end of the day the evidence has been presented to you and its up to each individual to accept or not.


Until now there was no evidence of Isa's return.


Are you both Quraniyeen ? As you have displayed a TRAIT of that group by rejecting authentic ahadeeth which almost everyone accepts.


As said earlier we were discussing three verses and not the hadith. As soon you feel insecurity on your stance you start labeling us. This is very poor way of debate. Never make assumptions about opponents illogicaly. You never know one of hadith could have convince me about Isa's return but well before reaching that part of discusison you started throwing toys out of pram.

Still hoping that you'll realize your mistakes, think about the arguments I or Momo presented in a logical way. Either acknowledge your wrong stance or present a counter logic that may convince us to change our stance. Please make use of the beautiful gift of thinking abilities from Allah otherwise there is no difference in human and rest of animals.


Just wanted to add that it is easier to debate in my view if the paramiters are known eg muslim, non muslim, qadiyani, shia, ismaeli etc

Pls answer this; are you both ahadeeth rejectors ?

If not, who do accept as having compiled authentic ahadeeth eg Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi etc ?


The debate is called debate because of it's content and not because of persons who are debating. Labeling ourself wouldn't change one bit the contents of our discussion. You can call me kafir but my arguments will remain same about the verses we discussed above.

Just to ease your egoistic pain, it doesn't matter who compiled the book of hadith. The only thing what matters is the contents of each hadith individually and the logical relation of it to Quran.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Zimmz,

Allah swt says immediately after ayah 158 of Al Nisa: 159 that:

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

Pickthal's translation of the same ayah:

There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -


This sounds like a prophecy that still hasn't been fulfilled because Jews still do not believe in him.

Also note that this ayah is mentioned immediately after explicit detailing of a) Isa (as) not being killed and 2) being raised up to Allah.

Another thing, in ayah 158 why does Allah swt says he raised him up instead of he caused him death?

Furthermore, in Surah Aal e Imran: 48, Allah swt says about teaching Isa (as): (again Picthal's translation)

And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,


Now, what is this Scripture that Allah swt is speaking of teaching Isa (as)? Note he mentions "The Scripture" separate from Torah & Injeel.

And why would Allah swt teach him this *other* scripture and for what purpose?

[cricfan4ever]

Disclaimer: same.

1. You said that you dont consider it an important part of your Iman. In my view this is incorrect. One of the six Pillars of Iman is belief in Allah's Messengers (peace be on them all). That entails believing in their message, statements etc. You may have an individual who believes in the Messengers and then goes on to say that there is another prophet eg Qadiyanis etc. Therefore, we have to not only believe in the Messengers but ALSO have the correct belief about them, their lives, message, statements etc. In that sense, it does affect your Iman (in my view).

2. Again to be clear Verse 157 clearly states that they did not kill Eesa (as).

Verse 158 states that Allah raised Eesa to Himself. This means that he was not killed AT ALL BUT RAISED UP. (SIMPLE).

3. Surah 43/61 states that Eesa (as) will be a Sign of the Hour. This means he will return. This fact has been supported by numerous ahadeeth. The Hour is in the future and only Allah knows best when it will be. This Verse states that Eesa will be a Sign of the Hour (via his return to the earth).

Please read those two points again.

Also, can you please show your references where Eesa (as) states that he died (audhubillah). No disrespect, you should check whether your copy of the Quran is not a qadiyani version.

And why do you reject the ahadeeth by Imams Bukhari and Muslim in relation to this matter and (maybe) accept others which are attributed to them ? (unless you reject ahadeeth altogether).

And to reinforce what njamal requested: who else apart from the qadiyanis believes that Eesa (as) died ?

This is a serious topic as it invloves:

a) Rejecting Allah's statement that Eesa (as) was raised up.
b) Rejecting the belief that he will return.
c) Rejecting numerous authentic ahadeeth about the return of Eesa (as) and the Signs of the Hour.
d) Rejecting the appearance of Imam Mahdi.
e) Going against the consensus of all the scholars throughout the muslim world only to side with the qadiyanis on this matter. The latter should be enough to be a cause for alarm and serious reflection.

Please answer the above questions. Thank you.

And Allah knows best

zabardast post azhar bhai!!! :14:

unfortunately your post will not penetrate the minds of confused souls in this thread !!!!

may Allah (swt) guide them! Ameen.

[zimmz]

Before I could comment on this verse, I remind you again the part of my earlier post in this thread where I mentioned I am neutral on this issue. Couple of verses we are discussing here are not clear enough for me due to grammer factor. May be some arabic or English grammer/literature expert can clear this verse.



Allah swt says immediately after ayah 158 of Al Nisa: 159 that:

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will[1] surely believe in Jesus before his death[2]. And on the Day of Resurrection he[3] will be against them[4] a witness.

Pickthal's translation of the same ayah:

There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will[1] believe in him before his death[2], and on the Day of Resurrection he[3] will be a witness against them[4]



My questions:

People of the scripture or book technically mean those who already believe in Isa. So in what sense they have to believe Isa according to this verse?

[1] Is it really 'will' in arabic?
[2] Before whom death? The one who believes or Jesus? Explain grammtically.
[3] Again who he? The one who believes or Jesus?
[4] Who them? Those who believe or those who tried to kill Isa (referred in previous verse)?


This sounds like a prophecy that still hasn't been fulfilled because Jews still do not believe in him.

Also note that this ayah is mentioned immediately after explicit detailing of a) Isa (as) not being killed and 2) being raised up to Allah.

Another thing, in ayah 158 why does Allah swt says he raised him up instead of he caused him death?


The verse 157 as I understand say: The people who claimed to kill Isa were not able to kill him. Instead Isa just appeared dead to them (illusion?). Allah assert that 'they certainly did not kill Isa'.

In verse 158 Allah raised Isa up unto himself. Now what exactly it means 'to be raised'? Really transported Isa to heavens forever? We can't be sure. Could it be that Allah just saved Isa from being crucified and brought him to some other place far from the reach of his enemies? How can we be sure that whereever Allah took him, he is there until now?

Considering all these questions could it be that verse 159 meant People will believe in Isa before his death which might have occured later after that event of crucification?


Furthermore, in Surah Aal e Imran: 48, Allah swt says about teaching Isa (as): (again Picthal's translation)

And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,


Now, what is this Scripture that Allah swt is speaking of teaching Isa (as)? Note he mentions "The Scripture" separate from Torah & Injeel.


How can you be certain that the scripture is Quran?

If you read 4-46 and 4-47, Allah is talking to Maryam(as) and telling her what Isa will do after birth (for example talking while being infant, learning scripture when he grows up) so I would only say good try at associating this verse to Isa's return.

[azhar329]

Sorry to burst your egoistic bubble but your position != correct position. The verses we discuss doesn't make your position correct.
Seems that you are devoid of logic.



How it is clear? When your ego is bloated by logical answers for your post, you start diverting the flow of discussion to different direction. Until now we were discussing Quran verses and now that your logic is failing you, you brought in the argument about hadith.

Despite the fact that you have no shame for accepting your logical mis-understanding, bring on each hadtih one by one, inshAllah we can discuss them. Do not copy paste articles please.



Until now there was no evidence of Isa's return.



As said earlier we were discussing three verses and not the hadith. As soon you feel insecurity on your stance you start labeling us. This is very poor way of debate. Never make assumptions about opponents illogicaly. You never know one of hadith could have convince me about Isa's return but well before reaching that part of discusison you started throwing toys out of pram.

Still hoping that you'll realize your mistakes, think about the arguments I or Momo presented in a logical way. Either acknowledge your wrong stance or present a counter logic that may convince us to change our stance. Please make use of the beautiful gift of thinking abilities from Allah otherwise there is no difference in human and rest of animals.



The debate is called debate because of it's content and not because of persons who are debating. Labeling ourself wouldn't change one bit the contents of our discussion. You can call me kafir but my arguments will remain same about the verses we discussed above.

Just to ease your egoistic pain, it doesn't matter who compiled the book of hadith. The only thing what matters is the contents of each hadith individually and the logical relation of it to Quran.

Disclaimer: same.

1. Re: egos; you need to lose yours for a start. It is not my personal position which I have just made up! This is the consensus of the WHOLE MUSLIM WORLD. The likes of you and momo are a tiny, tiny minority. Stop trying to make it personal, I am quoting from Quran and ahadeeth and from the same schools of thought of the Hanafis, Shafi'is, Malikis and Hanbalis. I am stating my position in line with the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam), the sahaaba, etc etc etc

2. I am not diverting the discussion. It seems that no matter Ayaat are placed in front of you, you will continue to misinterpret them.

3. The Ayaahs that were presented all referred to Eesa (as). Ayah 157 states he was not killed, then 158 goes on to say that he was raised. NO WHERE IS IT MENTIONED THAT HE DIED.

Surah 43- 57-60 all relate to Eesa (as) then Verse 61 states that he (Jesus ) will be a Sign of the Hour.

The link is that they all apply to Eesa (as).

I also had a brief look at the links you posted (The Advent...) and which you stated contained proof of Verses in the Quran stating that Eesa had died (audhubillah).

Briefly, the sister mentioned Surahs 5/117 and 3/55 and both times she said that the Ayaahs mentioned the word die. THIS IS INCORRECT. THE CORRECT TRANSLATION states something like "when you took me up" and "will take you and raise you"; there is NO mention of death.

And with all due respect to the sister (I acknowledge the fact that she's studying arabic etc) however, she doesnt even come close in terms of knowledge of the Arabic language and Islamic Scholarship to the likes of Imam Ahmad, Imam Bukhari, Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah Imam Malik and so on and so on.

So with all respect if that is your point of reference then it is difficult to take your position seriously. Again, this is not my view against yours; its the consensus of the knowledgable ulema worldwide against yours.

4. Again you state "you can call me kafir". How manytimes do I have to repeat I am NOT calling anyone a kafir. Do you understand that last sentence ?

I have repeatedly said that insulting/mocking Islam is kufr; I didnt say you are a kafir. It seems that you and momo are experiencing the same problem; delusion!

And in terms of Prophet Eesa (as) dying/not returning: I have read that to PURPOSELY give the Quran a deviant interpretation is kufr.

So to cover myself I am NOT going to say you and momo have committed kufr; only Allah knows best. InshaAllah I will try to find out what the ruling is on a person who denies the return etc (inshaAllah I will try).

I also appreciate the links you posted; it seems that this discussion took place for more than two years ago! And mashaAllah there were brothers who posted ahadeeth etc which talked about the return of Eesa (as). I dont think anything I say will change your mind (I wasnt aware that the subject had been debated to the extent that it was)

Therefore, just to reiterate:

1. Verses 157,158, 61 are sufficient proof.
2. The Ayaahs you/Jadz refer to are not proof. It does relate to death AT ALL.
3. Please refer to authentice ahadeeth which relate to the return as well.
4. I am not making takfir on anyone.
5. This is not personal. InshaAllah we should all refer to knowledgable scholars, sources etc as opposed to not doing so and having the "in my opinion" attitude.
6. If I have made any mistakes I ask all to forgive me.


And only Allah knows best.

[azhar329]

Disclaimer: same


Just want to state that I take back the point about Imaan in my post 143 (point number 1 I think (although there are 6 Pillars of Iman etc)) and also when I think that I stated it was kufr;

instead please see my post 178 Paragraphs starting "In terms of" and "So to cover myself" which relate to the kufr point.

n.b. no takfir has been made although I believe it to be a deviant, incorrect position which is not in accordance with the Quran or sunnah. I also believe that mocking the correct position is mocking the sunnah and therefore kufr (not calling anyone a kafir). So people shouldnt say its "fairytales" etc. And its an established ruling that mocking Allah,the sunnah, Islam is kufr which can take you out the fold of Islam.


And Allah knows best.

[zimmz]

It is not my personal position which I have just made up! This is the consensus of the WHOLE MUSLIM WORLD.


Once again you lump the discussion about two verses in isolation to 'consensus on belief derived from several verses and hadtihs plus history books'. Instead of refuting the logical arguments about verses under discussion you are hiding behind 'consensus'. Well done!

Btw I am sure majority of this WHOLE MUSLIM WORLD reach to consensus just by saying "This is the consensus of the WHOLE MUSLIM WORLD" rather than thinking on their own.


2. I am not diverting the discussion. It seems that no matter Ayaat are placed in front of you, you will continue to misinterpret them.


Point out the misinterpreted part backed by REASON or logic.


Ayah 157 states he was not killed. then 158 goes on to say that he was raised. NO WHERE IS IT MENTIONED THAT HE DIED.


Killed at that moment by 'they'. There is a difference between being killed by someone and being dead naturally. How can you be sure Isa never died later on after being 'raised'?


Surah 43- 57-60 all relate to Eesa (as) then Verse 61 states that he (Jesus ) will be a Sign of the Hour.

The link is that they all apply to Eesa (as).


Read my previous post again. I commented on this verse (infact on all of verses) so can't be repeatitive.

[KingKhanWC]

There is a difference between being killed by someone and being dead naturally. How can you be sure Isa never died later on after being 'raised'?


Raised means raised to heaven or God. The Quran clearly says he wasn't crucified or killed so there is no need to be raised back to life.

[zimmz]

Briefly, the sister mentioned Surahs 5/117 and 3/55 and both times she said that the Ayaahs mentioned the word die. THIS IS INCORRECT. THE CORRECT TRANSLATION states something like "when you took me up" and "will take you and raise you"; there is NO mention of death.


I can not comment with confident on this verse since once again the translations differ due to multi-meaning words and grammer.
M. Asad's translation used the word die. Furthermore I remember the discussion that the same word is used for death in other places in Quran. I hope some one with more knoweldge can provide the references.

Anyway lets try to look at the different translations logically (for 3-55):

1) Picktall: I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me
2) Yusuf Ali: I will take thee and raise thee to Myself
3) M. Asad: I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me

First of all why this verse mentioned two separate actions? Taking and raising? In verse 4-158 for the same event only the word 'raised' is used. Since in 4-158 we all took 'raised' as transporting Isa to heavens then what could be the meaning behind 'take/gathering thee' in 3-55?

[azhar329]

disclaimer

[zimmz]

The Quran clearly says he wasn't crucified or killed so there is no need to be raised back to life.

??? I didn't understand.

[zimmz]

M. Asad's translation used the word die. Furthermore I remember the discussion that the same word is used for death in other places in Quran. I hope some one with more knoweldge can provide the references.


I just had a quick look into threads I listed earlier. Those threads discuss the verses word by word so Azhar and others I suggest to read those threads completely before continuing our discussion. Even I have to read those very good discussions completely, time permitting. Out of four the 'Advent of Isa' threads should be top priority for reading.



The Advent Of 'Isa (pbuh)
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=85484

The Advent Of 'Isa (pbuh) Part 2
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=95820

Coming of MAHDI A.S
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=95100

Return of Christ Jesus
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=117645

[KingKhanWC]

??? I didn't understand.

How hard is this to understand?

And (on account of) their saying, "We killed the Messiah, ‘Isa son of Maryam, Messenger of Allah." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (Surat an-Nisa': 157-158)

One verse says he wasn't killed.

Therefore he is alive.

The next verse says Allah(swt) raised him to Himself.

Conclusion, he was raised alive to God and did not die as humans do.

Here is a question for you.

There is a grave laid out for Jesus(pbuh) in Medina. Why?

[zimmz]

How hard is this to read other posts before posting yours?
Gone through this verse several time in this very thread.


One verse says he wasn't killed.

Therefore he is alive.


Wrong logic! If he wasn't killed at that moment then this doesn't mean he never died later on.


The next verse says Allah(swt) raised him to Himself.

Conclusion, he was raised alive to God and did not die as humans do.


That's only one conclusion. Just from the wordings of verse (and assuming the popular meaning of raised as transported) we can't be sure if it is raised alive or dead. No where this verse said 'Isa didn't die as human'. Also how you can be certain that Isa was not brought back to the earth from where ever he was raised?

See we are going in circles. Better follow the already on going discussion.


Here is a question for you.

There is a grave laid out for Jesus(pbuh) in Medina. Why?


Ask those who laid that. If indeed exists, it's certainly not laid by Allah.

[Tapori]

Good debate all round.

Shout out to Azhar and Zimmz for keeping it civil. Momo for the Unorthodox deliveries too.

[azhar329]

disclaimer: same



@zimmz- you said we cant be sure if he was raised alive or dead.

The preceding verses talk about him being saved, therefore, he was alive.

Then in the VERY NEXT verse which is STILL CONNECTED to the LAST verse, Allah states that Eesa (as) was rasied to Himself.

So he was raised in a state of being alive. It does not mention death at all.


Allah knows best.

[azhar329]

Good debate all round.

Shout out to Azhar and Zimmz for keeping it civil. Momo for the Unorthodox deliveries too.

Disclaimer:same

Thank you tapori;

I dont wish to be insulted and I dont want to insult either as I dont want it to get personal. We should all be advising each other for the sake of Allah, for Allah's Pleasure (nothing personal).

And if Ive made personal remarks ON ANY THREAD then I ask all of you to forgive me inshaAllah, ameen


Allah knows best

[KingKhanWC]

How hard is this to read other posts before posting yours?
Gone through this verse several time in this very thread.

So what if you have gone throught it? You obviously don't understand it.

Wrong logic! If he wasn't killed at that moment then this doesn't mean he never died later on.



That's only one conclusion. Just from the wordings of verse (and assuming the popular meaning of raised as transported) we can't be sure if it is raised alive or dead. No where this verse said 'Isa didn't die as human'. Also how you can be certain that Isa was not brought back to the earth from where ever he was raised?

See we are going in circles. Better follow the already on going discussion.

I don't need to because for me the verses are very clear. They follow each other and clearly say he wasn't killed and raised to God.

The Quran doesn't mention he has died a natual death so it's only your speculation.

Ask those who laid that. If indeed exists, it's certainly not laid by Allah.

lol. You are ignorant of this. It does exist. The reason it exists is because this is a common accepted belief in Islam.

You are welcome to your own opinion but that's all it is.

[azhar329]

disclaimer:same


@KKWC- bro Surah 43, 61 - states that Eesa will be a sign for knowledge of the Hour, meaning his return to earth. Therefore, it does mention him coming back to earth.

Maybe Ive misunderstood your point?



Allah knows best

[KingKhanWC]

disclaimer:same


@KKWC- bro Surah 43, 61 - states that Eesa will be a sign for knowledge of the Hour, meaning his return to earth. Therefore, it does mention him coming back to earth.

Maybe Ive misunderstood your point?



Allah knows best

Yes, it's my fault. I have edited my post to clarify. The Quran doesn't mention Jesus(pbuh) having alreadly died a natural death.

[zimmz]

The preceding verses talk about him being saved, therefore, he was alive.


Yes up until that moment he was alive. What happened later to him is not mentioned in verses 4-157 and 4-158. We can discuss further the verses referred in other threads where it is suggested he died based on the meaning of the certain word.


Then in the VERY NEXT verse which is STILL CONNECTED to the LAST verse, Allah states that Eesa (as) was rasied to Himself.

So he was raised in a state of being alive. It does not mention death at all.


raised to himself for how long? That too if we go by the popular meaning of this verse i.e. transported to heavens. But can we be sure of that? Could it be that he was just moved to other place on earth?

OR if we follow the discussion in other threadsd, raised could very well meant to say raised in status. See the the explanation given by Jadz or Momo in other threads where it is mentioned that the word is used in other places in Quran for 'raised in status'.


The Quran doesn't mention he has died a natual death so it's only your speculation.


Please follow the thread 'Advent of isa' and there some verses are referred where the debate is on the meaning of word that is used for death so one can conclude that Isa died later.


lol. You are ignorant of this. It does exist. The reason it exists is because this is a common accepted belief in Islam.


We are discussing verses and you bring the man made grave as proof of Isa's return. That's some logic.

[KingKhanWC]

We are discussing verses and you bring the man made grave as proof of Isa's return. That's some logic.

It's in Medina near the resting place of the Prophet(pbuh). What this indicates to anyone with some common sense is the return of Jesus(pbuh) is an accepted belief in Islam.

If you Momo, Jadz and anyone else think you know better than 1400 years of Islamic theoligy then you are entitled to your views.

As far as I am concerned it's plainly obvious what the conclusion is here and there isn't even a need for debate.

New age reformists aren't getting anywhere, they have failed miserably. :)

[azhar329]

disclaimer: same


@zimmz= Verse 158 states that Allah raised him to Himself.

That negates any place on earth as Allah is above the seven Heavens.

It also negates "raised in status" because:

1. It states raised him to Himself (nothing about status mentioned)

2. Surely you're not stating that his status was raised to the level of Allah, audhubillah; no creation, nothing is comparable to Allah, Allah is beyond all imperfection.. This is something the Christians have done, worship him as a creator.


Allah knows best

[zimmz]

accepted belief in Islam.

...there isn't even a need for debate.


So you don't want to understand/verify why and how the 'commonly accepted' belief is worked out? I suppose you never tired to understand why 2+2=4, you rather accepted as it is. [Example courtesy: by Momo from Advent of Isa thread]

We can put aside all the literature, Quran and other sources, since we don't need them in the presence of commonly accepted beliefs reached us through classical scholars and our parents.


That negates any place on earth as Allah is above the seven Heavens.


Has Allah told us his home address? I missed it please refer me the verses. Whatever happend to 'Allah is present every where'?


It also negates "raised in status" because:

1. It states raised him to Himself (nothing about status mentioned)


Good point. Let's see if we can find some explanation in related threads or some one with more knowledge can address this point here. From my side it could be 'raised Isa in His eys'.


2. Surely you're not stating that his status was raised to the level of Allah, audhubillah;


No I didn't mean that.

[zimmz]

Azhar looking back at all the posts between you and me, I see why Momo bro demanded that you acknowledge the opponent's argument if you can't refute it. To not make the discussion vague for others it is important that we accept each other points that we can not argue any more, before moving on to next points (verses, hadith etc).

I see on your last post you moved on to the point if Isa is dead or alive after being 'raised' (irrespective of the meaning of that word).

If you look back at your original stance that was 4-157 and 4-158 prove Isa will return. So can you please acknowledge at least that these two verses in isolation do not prove 'return of Isa'? We move on then step by step.

P.S. off to sleep now. InshAllah will continue time permitting.

[azhar329]

disclaimer:same


Re: Where is Allah ? (question was different but this answers your question) Pls read it.

Praise be to Allaah.

It is proven in the Qur’aan and Sunnah and by the consensus (ijmaa’) of the salaf (early generations) of this ummah that Allaah is above His heavens on His Throne, and that He is the Exalted, Most High. He is Above all things, and there is nothing that is above Him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six Days. Then He rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). You (mankind) have none, besides Him, as a Wali (protector or helper) or an intercessor. Will you not then remember (or receive admonition)?”

[al-Sajdah 32,4]

“Surely, your Lord is Allaah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things [Yoonus 10:3]

“To Him ascend (all) the goodly words, and the righteous deeds exalt it (i.e. the goodly words are not accepted by Allaah unless and until they are followed by good deeds) [Faatir 35:10]

“He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him) [al-Hadeed 57:3]

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “You are the Most High and there is nothing above You…”

There are many similar ayaat and ahaadeeth. But at the same time, Allaah tells us that He is with His slaves wherever they are:

“Have you not seen that Allaah knows whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is on the earth? There is no Najwa (secret counsel) of three but He is their fourth (with His Knowledge, while He Himself is over the Throne, over the seventh heaven), — nor of five but He is their sixth (with His Knowledge), — nor of less than that or more but He is with them (with His Knowledge) wheresoever they may be” [al-Mujaadilah 58:7]

Allaah has combined mention of His being above His Throne with mention of His being with His slaves in one aayah, where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, and what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be [al-Hadeed 57,4]

Saying that Allaah is with us does not mean that He is mixed with (or dwells in) His creation; rather He is with His slaves by His knowledge. He is above His Throne and nothing is hidden from Him of what they do. With regard to the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge)” [Qaaf 50:16]

- most of the mufassireen said that what is meant is that He is near by means of His angels whose task it is to record people’s deeds. And those who said that it means that He is near explained it as meaning that He is near by His knowledge, as is said concerning how He is with us.

This is the view of Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, who affirm that Allaah is above His creation and that He is also with His slaves, and they state that He is far above dwelling in His created beings. With regard to the denial of all Divine attributes as voiced by the Jahamiyyah and their followers, they deny that His Essence is above His creatures and that He rose above His Throne, and they say that He is present in His Essence everywhere. We ask Allaah to guide the Muslims.



Shaykh Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak


Re: you think the verse means raised Eesa in His Eyes;

again that is YOUR interpretation; what does the Ayaah ACTUALLY say; Allah raise him to Himself. No mention of eyes, status or death.


Allah knows best

[KingKhanWC]

edit, double post.

[KingKhanWC]

So you don't want to understand/verify why and how the 'commonly accepted' belief is worked out? I suppose you never tired to understand why 2+2=4, you rather accepted as it is. [Example courtesy: by Momo from Advent of Isa thread]

We can put aside all the literature, Quran and other sources, since we don't need them in the presence of commonly accepted beliefs reached us through classical scholars and our parents.

I've already stated the verses are clear enough for me. There are also numerous hadiths which confirm this. I don't need to check anything else.

Perhaps you should consult the authorities who are in charge of Medina and demand the resting place of Jesus(pbuh) be removed because you and Momo believe they along with past Islamic theologians are mistaken?

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Before I could comment on this verse, I remind you again the part of my earlier post in this thread where I mentioned I am neutral on this issue. Couple of verses we are discussing here are not clear enough for me due to grammer factor. May be some arabic or English grammer/literature expert can clear this verse.



My questions:

People of the scripture or book technically mean those who already believe in Isa. So in what sense they have to believe Isa according to this verse?

Lol. People of the Scripture/book or in Arabic (Ahlul Kitab) refers to people that have been given the scriptures/books; hence both Christians and Jews, and in this context the Jews in general.

[1] Is it really 'will' in arabic?

I have posted two different translations and both say "will". I have no reason to doubt these translators. Furthermore, I have also read the translations of Abdullah Yusuf Ali, who is an Ahmedi & Shakir, who's a Shia and I do not take my religion from either.

[2] Before whom death? The one who believes or Jesus? Explain grammtically.

LOL. How about read the preceding ayaat along with this to understand the context and also read the part “believe in HIM” in this ayah as well. Believe in who? Isa (as). And while we’re at it notice that Isa (as) is referred to as a singular entity whilst the People of the Scripture as plural such as “people” and “them”.

[3] Again who he? The one who believes or Jesus?

Obviously Isa (as). Read the ayah again, it's really not as difficult as you're imagining it to be.

[4] Who them? Those who believe or those who tried to kill Isa (referred in previous verse)?

The people of the scripture as mentioned in the beginning of the ayah, those that didn't believe in him.

The verse 157 as I understand say: The people who claimed to kill Isa were not able to kill him. Instead Isa just appeared dead to them (illusion?). Allah assert that 'they certainly did not kill Isa'.

Hence, still alive.

In verse 158 Allah raised Isa up unto himself. Now what exactly it means 'to be raised'? Really transported Isa to heavens forever? We can't be sure. Could it be that Allah just saved Isa from being crucified and brought him to some other place far from the reach of his enemies? How can we be sure that whereever Allah took him, he is there until now?

That’s just conjecture. Tafsir Ibn Kathir explains where and how the ascension took place.

Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised `Isa to the heavens, `Isa went to his companions, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping water and he said, `There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.' He then asked, `Who volunteers that his image appear as mine, and be killed in my place. He will be with me (in Paradise)' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered and `Isa asked him to sit down. `Isa again asked for a volunteer, and the young man kept volunteering and `Isa asking him to sit down. Then the young man volunteered again and `Isa said, `You will be that man,' and the resemblance of `Isa was cast over that man while `Isa ascended to heaven from a hole in the house. When the Jews came looking for `Isa, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of `Isa's followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, Al-Ya`qubiyyah (Jacobites), said, `Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to heaven.' Another group, An-Nasturiyyah (Nestorians), said, `The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to heaven.' Another group, Muslims, said, `The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad .'' This statement has an authentic chain of narration leading to Ibn `Abbas, and An-Nasa'i narrated it through Abu Kurayb who reported it from Abu Mu`awiyah. Many among the Salaf stated that `Isa asked if someone would volunteer for his appearance to be cast over him, and that he will be killed instead of `Isa, for which he would be his companion in Paradise.

I’d much rather take the explanation of Imam Ibn Kathir over some nobody’s guess work.

Considering all these questions could it be that verse 159 meant People will believe in Isa before his death which might have occured later after that event of crucification?

Nope. Since the cousin and the companion of the Prophet saw Ibn Abbas (ra) says as noted by Ibn Jarir and mentioned once again in Tafsir Ibn Kathir “: (but must believe in him, before his death.) " This occurs after `Isa returns and before he dies, as then, all of the People of the Scriptures will believe in him.''

How can you be certain that the scripture is Quran?

It’s a logical deduction based on the fact that there’s no prophet in between Prophet Muhammad saw & Prophet Isa (as) and so there wasn't another scripture that needed to be taught to him. Moreover, Isa (as) has to descend near the end of time. Hence, it makes logical sense that he knows Quran & Sunnah (wisdom) since he has to rule by it once he descends as per the authentic ahadith of the Prophet saw.

If you read 4-46 and 4-47, Allah is talking to Maryam(as) and telling her what Isa will do after birth (for example talking while being infant, learning scripture when he grows up) so I would only say good try at associating this verse to Isa's return.

LOL, when did I deny that Allah’s not speaking to Maryam (as)? The ayah I quoted speaks of what Allah will teach Isa (as) and one of the things that he swt will teach him is *another scripture* along with Torah & Gospel.

The reason once again for teaching this *other* scripture is because Isa (as) is going to rule by this *other* scripture once he descends down as per the authentic ahadith.

Lastly, what is your reason & proof (if you can provide one) to believe that this *other* scripture that Allah swt has taught Isa (as) is not Quran?

[azhar329]

disclaimer: same


The problem is that zimmz is referring us to the advent thread for further evidence to support his position.

At the same time, are we now to ignore thousands of years worth of scholarship in favour of a piece by sister jadz and false opinions from momo (no disrespect intended) ?

The choice is so obvious.


Allah knows best

[zimmz]

@Azhar Re: Concept of Allah's position and power.

Interesting interpretation of the words 'throne', 'above all' and 'high'. So according to you Allah sits on some throne high above all the heavens keeping an eye on us from up there. Really don't want to derail this thread but I am further curious to know your understandinf of our universe, heavens etc. In which direction of the earth this throne could be? Above north pole, south pole or equator?

[Momo]

Perhaps you should consult the authorities who are in charge of Medina and demand the resting place of Jesus(pbuh) be removed because you and Momo believe they along with past Islamic theologians are mistaken?
Well the authorities in charge of Madinah and Makkah also don't let women drive. So much for the appeal to authority fallacy!

Past as well as present and future theologians can of course be wrong. They are neither Allah nor directly guided by Allah to be infallible.

Only Allah and His Messenger cannot be challenged. The opinion of the rest (however unanimous) is open to question.

:)

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

@ Momo, I hate your avatar. Feel like slapping that guy

[Momo]

zimmz: Thank you and well done for your logical replies to the mob equipped with "winning" arguments such as, "Since there is a grave with his name on it, he must be alive." :))

And hats off to you for simply saying "I don't know" about things you are not sure about. This is gunaah-e-kabeera as far as the mob we are dealing with is concerned. They know everything (just can't explain how)! :butt

Some time later, I will go through the new posts in detail and address the points you have not addressed (if any). :)

[Momo]

@ Momo, I hate your avatar. Feel like slapping that guy
Koi kambakht dekh ke jal gaya
Kisi nein dua di

Feel free to drown in your own vomit. :asif

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

Koi kambakht dekh ke jal gaya
Kisi nein dua di

Feel free to drown in your own vomit. :asif

Is that the translation?

You sicken me Momo :kapil

[Momo]

You sicken me Momo :kapil
I usually have that effect on rotters. :)

[zimmz]

Lol. People of the Scripture/book or in Arabic (Ahlul Kitab) refers to people that have been given the scriptures/books; hence both Christians and Jews, and in this context the Jews in general.


I see. Must be Jews and earlier people of book, since technically christians believe in Jesus.


I have posted two different translations and both say "will". I have no reason to doubt these translators. Furthermore, I have also read the translations of Abdullah Yusuf Ali, who is an Ahmedi & Shakir, who's a Shia and I do not take my religion from either.


We should not take our religion from any of translator doesn't matter who he/she is, until we can verify the correct meaning on our own. Hence I asked all these questions to some one who have better knowledge of arabic.


LOL. How about read the preceding ayaat along with this to understand the context and also read the part “believe in HIM” in this ayah as well. Believe in who? Isa (as). And while we’re at it notice that Isa (as) is referred to as a singular entity whilst the People of the Scripture as plural such as “people” and “them”.


The verse say 'None(not one) of people of book' which is singular.
So how can you be certain that in 'before his death' his refer to the one of people of book or Jesus himself?


Obviously Isa (as). Read the ayah again, it's really not as difficult as you're imagining it to be.



The people of the scripture as mentioned in the beginning of the ayah, those that didn't believe in him.


I am also inclined to believe here he refers to isa and them to people of book. Still I would like to read opinions of others.


Hence, still alive.


Why still alive? The verse only tells that at that time 'they' were not able to kill Isa. If later on Isa died naturally or for some other reason is not clear. According to some verses with debate on particular word for death, some suggest he died later.


That’s just conjecture. Tafsir Ibn Kathir explains where and how the ascension took place.

I’d much rather take the explanation of Imam Ibn Kathir over some nobody’s guess work.


Nice story but it's not verifiable (or verified) using Quran.


It’s a logical deduction based on the fact that there’s no prophet in between Prophet Muhammad saw & Prophet Isa (as) and so there wasn't another scripture that needed to be taught to him. Moreover, Isa (as) has to descend near the end of time. Hence, it makes logical sense that he knows Quran & Sunnah (wisdom) since he has to rule by it once he descends as per the authentic ahadith of the Prophet saw.

LOL, when did I deny that Allah’s not speaking to Maryam (as)? The ayah I quoted speaks of what Allah will teach Isa (as) and one of the things that he swt will teach him is *another scripture* along with Torah & Gospel.


You assume the scripture to be Quran based on assumption that Isa will return. I still am not convinced about the later and have open questions about the verses.


Lastly, what is your reason & proof (if you can provide one) to believe that this *other* scripture that Allah swt has taught Isa (as) is not Quran?

Could be anything. Why can't it be Zabur since taurah the book of Musa is mentioned? Anyway I won't make any assumptions here. Alla I am saying is that we can't be certain if this scripture meant Quran. Your deduction above doesn't hold for me.

[zimmz]

Well the authorities in charge of Madinah and Makkah also don't let women drive. So much for the appeal to authority fallacy!


That's classical Islam for you - unchallengeable. :)


And hats off to you for simply saying "I don't know" about things you are not sure about. This is gunaah-e-kabeera as far as the mob we are dealing with is concerned. They know everything (just can't explain how)! :butt


Thanks bhai. I joined this discussion only to clarify bit more the clear logic (which I could easily understand) in verses to Azhar and fellows. Unlike them I don't claim to know every thing or hide behind 'commonly accepted' belief.


Some time later, I will go through the new posts in detail and address the points you have not addressed (if any). :)

Thanks. There'll definitly be open questions.

[Inziquicksingle]

We should not take our religion from any of translator doesn't matter who he/she is, until we can verify the correct meaning on our own. Hence I asked all these questions to some one who have better knowledge of arabic.

zimmz, just read what you wrote. Youre saying we shouldnt trust some translator but you did trust someone to help you with the Arabic! Wallahi no offense, that what youve written is completely nonsensical.

[zimmz]

^ You might have got me wrong. What I meant is that we should not take our religion from the person based on his affiliations. We should verify and think on our own when reading translations. If I asked the questions about meanings of arabic words, that doesn't mean I'll blindly accept the answers. Only if the answers make sense then they are accepted.

[Inziquicksingle]

^ You might have got me wrong. What I meant is that we should not take our religion from the person based on his affiliations. We should verify and think on our own when reading translations. If I asked the questions about meanings of arabic words, that doesn't mean I'll blindly accept the answers. Only if the answers make sense then they are accepted.

So umm if it doesnt make sense to you or what you deem as making sense you will not accept it? Then the only way to seek the truth is to learn/master arabic yourself. That too will require a teacher or an instructor.

[zimmz]

On the contrary you'll notice that another fellow said he accepted the translation which deemed fit to him based on affiliations of translators.

I on the other hand seek as much info as possible and then try to use my brain instead of blindly following the 'commonly accepted' or 'most popular' or 'my favorite' translations or opinions.

Yes learning arabic is one of wishes so inshAllah will keep trying. Having teachers/instructors doesn't mean that you can't use your own brain in parrallel.

[KingKhanWC]

Well the authorities in charge of Madinah and Makkah also don't let women drive. So much for the appeal to authority fallacy!

What idiocy. :yk


Past as well as present and future theologians can of course be wrong. They are neither Allah nor directly guided by Allah to be infallible.

Only Allah and His Messenger cannot be challenged. The opinion of the rest (however unanimous) is open to question.

:)

Sure over a thousand years of Islamic study by people who spend their whole lives dedicated to Islamic theoligy are wrong and some bloke who idolises a Hindu singer has been enlightened with the truth of Islam :zoni

Keep the comedy coming.

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

:)))

[azhar329]

:)))

impala bro; you're hitting 3 threads at once!!!is it a record ??!!!!

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

Im a youngster :afridi

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

We should not take our religion from any of translator doesn't matter who he/she is, until we can verify the correct meaning on our own. Hence I asked all these questions to some one who have better knowledge of arabic.

I understand however what I was meaning to say is that often times people do translate ayaat in a certain way based on their affiliations with a particular sect they follow.

The verse say 'None(not one) of people of book' which is singular.
So how can you be certain that in 'before his death' his refer to the one of people of book or Jesus himself?

The verse is pretty self explanatory; I really don’t see why you have to resort to breaking it down word by word. I’ll post it again along with the preceding ayaat.

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.


So you see, it’s pretty clear from these ayaat. At first, Allah reveals with emphasis that Jesus has neither been crucified nor killed, and talks about raising him unto himself instead of causing natural death. And lastly, in the last ayah is the prophecy that every one of the people of the book will surely believe in Jesus but as we know this prophecy hasn't been fulfilled. The death that's being discussed in this ayah is of Isa (as) and not a person of scripture as per obvious reading. Why would it be about a Jew or Christian’s death? It makes no sense. And why would a Jew be a witness against Isa (as)? Lol

Why still alive? The verse only tells that at that time 'they' were not able to kill Isa. If later on Isa died naturally or for some other reason is not clear. According to some verses with debate on particular word for death, some suggest he died later

Sorry, but there's no verse in the Quran that suggests that Isa (as) has died a natural death. On the flip, there's a clear cut ayah which says Allah raised him up unto himself which precedes the ayah that explicitly states him being not killed.

Additionally, the overwhelming majority of the Ullama of past and present that have dedicated their lives studying Arabic, and Quranic sciences beg to differ as well.

Nice story but it's not verifiable (or verified) using Quran.

How is your conjecture verified from Quran about him dying a natural death “elsewhere”?

Furthermore, how is this story not verifiable from Quran? It’s expounding on ayah 157 and it’s been transmitted authentically through Prophet’s cousin.

You assume the scripture to be Quran based on assumption that Isa will return. I still am not convinced about the later and have open questions about the verses.

Yes because I read Quran with proper understanding using ahadith instead of baking my own interpretations.

Could be anything. Why can't it be Zabur since taurah the book of Musa is mentioned? Anyway I won't make any assumptions here. Alla I am saying is that we can't be certain if this scripture meant Quran. Your deduction above doesn't hold for me.

See, Allah taught him Torah because he was sent to people of Bani Israel.

Allah taught him Injeel because that book was revealed to him (with laws being eased up from Torah).

Now for Allah to teach him Zabur makes no sense since Bani Israel were already on the religion of Musa (as).

Moreover, another proof from the Quran is that in arabic the words used for the scripture and wisdom are Kitab & Hikmah. This is similar to what Allah swt says to Prophet Muhammad saw about revealing Quran in Surah Al Nisa : 113. Allah says:

“…….And Allah has revealed to you the Book and wisdom and has taught you that which you did not know. And ever has the favor of Allah upon you been great.”

Therefore, Allah uses the exact same words i.e. Kitab & Hikmah to describe Quran that he has revealed about Prophet Isa (as). Hence, the reason to believe that this kitab and hikmah is the same as what Prophet Muhammad is been given is pretty strong in my view.

And if it isn’t to you, and you wish to wonderfool in your conjecture then so be it.

[Tapori]

actually there is no historically fact that Easa AS even existed

Woah.

There are enough Primary, Secondary sources from that Historical period from Roman, Christian, Jewish and other groups not affiliated with Christians, that show such a man existed. You can debate his significance, but he did exist, as the countless eyewitness statements of that time suggest.

Just as there are many non-Muslim sources that cite that a man called Mohammad existed in the context of the Prophet. (The delegations sent to non-Muslim countries and the responses back)

[Tapori]

And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

Man, that is so simple to understand.

People of Scripture are those that received revelation in the time of Isa (PBUH) or before through other Prophets, like Musa (PBUH)

The clue is in the second line; He will be witness against those people of the Scripture that didn't believe in him! on the day of Judgment. As Ahmed Deedat remarks he will say to the CHristians that you mistakenly worshipped me as a part of the holy trinity.

Nothing about "They all Will believe in him and thus he has to return for this prophecy to be fulfilled"
That's a rather far-fetched interpretation no?

Verses 21:8 and 21:34 clealry state that Prophets were human and were governed by Allah's Law. Not some Superman style super-being or immortal being. Just incredibly pious special Humans who had an exhalted status, but were none-the-less Human.

Such a belief in Isa (PBUH) returning, should stay with Christian belief.

In any case, such a belief Philosophically is at odds with the Quran making it abundantly clear:

Last Book, Last Prophet. No more Messengers (Don't even try the "No More NEW messengers) line" No more Scriptural revelation.

It is what it is. The last book, the last Prophet. End of.

Being "Raised" doesn't indicate a physical ascension any more than it indicates a metaphorical ascension due to rectifying and avoiding the degrading nature of Crucifixion. Read the full verse and it clearly states that the degrading acts did not kill him. Raised, is Allah confirming that Isa's (PBUH) reputation would be exalted;

Hence his story emphasized in the Quran the book of Allah! How much more exalted could a human get, than to be mentioned in Allah's own words more than most other Prophets!

Eye-witness accounts mention the resurrection - Could this be conclusive proof that in the same way Christians mistook Isa (PBUH) to be a God-like figure, they also mistook his escape from dying on the cross as a literal Resurrection?

If anything Allah is clearly reinforcing the fact that no, Isa (PBUH) did not die on the cross nor was he crucified. That denial doesn't mean he was magically taken up to be with Allah as that would defy Allah's continual position in the Quran that he does not contravene his own laws.

[21:34] We granted not to any man before thee permanent life (here): if then thou shouldst die, would they live permanently?

Check and Mate. :misbah

[Tapori]

To encourage you to look at different translations from Yousuf Ali and beyond, :

http://www.openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=21&vid=34

[Tapori]

Im a youngster

:waqar

[zimmz]

So you see, it’s pretty clear from these ayaat.


Going by common understanding yes. But I am still open to critcism of these interpreatations. I'll not oppose any one presenting alternatives.


Sorry, but there's no verse in the Quran that suggests that Isa (as) has died a natural death.


There are some who beg to differ and their evidences hold some weight. See 'Advent of isa' threads.


Additionally, the overwhelming majority of the Ullama of past and present that have dedicated their lives studying Arabic, and Quranic sciences beg to differ as well.


Perhaps they all used the same reaons to believe as you just gave above i.e. 'commonyl accepted belief'. It would be interesteing to see, if at all, there were debates of this kind between Ullamas. The thing is in muslim world what we have in commonly avilable books is mostly the 'end result' of Ullama's research. So we hardly get to read if there ever was debate between Islamic scientists for the interpretations, translations or hadith validity. On the other hand look at science, from the childhood we are taught even the theories and practics which are no longer valid or applicable. Because of that we know how the current scientific concepts are concluded based on the works from past. I hope you getting the drift here.
All we are feed from childhood in religious studies is the ready made 'commonly accepted' beliefs, interpreations etc.


Furthermore, how is this story not verifiable from Quran? It’s expounding on ayah 157 and it’s been transmitted authentically through Prophet’s cousin.


The same way many other historical events or even hadith transmitted to us, yet their are hadiths which are hard to believe.
Propeht's cousin's naration of the event might well be true but we can't take that to back Qurnaic verses. It should be otherway round. First we should be clear about verses.


Therefore, Allah uses the exact same words i.e. Kitab & Hikmah to describe Quran that he has revealed about Prophet Isa (as). Hence, the reason to believe that this kitab and hikmah is the same as what Prophet Muhammad is been given is pretty strong in my view.


It still is conjecture. The word kitab (or scripture) is not only used for Quran. Whatever the word scripture represents in that verse talking to maryam, the overall verse can not be used as proof for Isa's return as it could be talking about the time Isa already lived on the earth.

[zimmz]

@Tapori good post. Interesting point of view. IN verse 4-157 the word 'against' is significant to the overall meaning of verse, how I missed that earlier:@.

[Tapori]

Also if you want to take a literal view, look in the entire Quran and find where Allah talks of Raising someone; Never is it used against the act of natural death, but rather as part of the process. As it is in death we return to Allah.

Or in the context of Raising someones status. Never is it some unnatural Raising to some unidentified place where Allah resides that is neither Heaven nor Hell but is like some kind of lounge for Isa (PBUH) to wait. The Quran embodies Allah's natural law and constantly talks of the basic Life and Death cycle so that we may face up to the cold hard truth that we come from Allah and his created Earth and to that Earth and ergo to Allah we shall return.


Also mentioned in the Book the case of Idris: He was a man of truth (and sincerity), (and) a prophet
And We raised him to a lofty station


And remember ye said: "O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly," but ye were dazed with thunder and lighting even as ye looked on.
Then We raised you up after your death: Ye had the chance to be grateful.


Are we know to re-interpret these verses in light of the Isa (PBUH) verse and believe that Musa (PBUH) and Idris (PBUH) too are going to return as some sort of Islamic Justice League team?

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Going by common understanding yes. But I am still open to critcism of these interpreatations. I'll not oppose any one presenting alternatives.

There are some who beg to differ and their evidences hold some weight. See 'Advent of isa' threads.

I’ve skimmed through that thread and I don’t see any earth shattering proof. Moreover, the so called evidence given by lay people’s own interpretations has no bearing on anyone.

Perhaps they all used the same reaons to believe as you just gave above i.e. 'commonyl accepted belief'.

Why would they all use the same reasons when they’re supposed to acquire skills in 1) mastering the Arabic language and 2) learning the understanding of deen from not only the POV of their particular school but also the criticisms of the opposing schools/sects.

It would be interesteing to see, if at all, there were debates of this kind between Ullamas.

There have been many for centuries, there’s a lot of material out there to read.

The thing is in muslim world what we have in commonly avilable books is mostly the 'end result' of Ullama's research. So we hardly get to read if there ever was debate between Islamic scientists for the interpretations, translations or hadith validity.

That is not true at all. There’s a lot of material in regards to opposing views available in Urdu, Persian, and Arabic. Not much is translated in English though, but you can find a lot of information on opposing concepts from Scholars in at least Urdu for Pakistani Muslims.

On the other hand look at science, from the childhood we are taught even the theories and practics which are no longer valid or applicable. Because of that we know how the current scientific concepts are concluded based on the works from past. I hope you getting the drift here.
All we are feed from childhood in religious studies is the ready made 'commonly accepted' beliefs, interpreations etc.

I agree that there are certain things that we are taught as children that are incorrect and should be questioned and corrected. But the question is who are you going to ask to correct your views/understanding? Would you ask a student or an expert in the field? What would be your first pick if you had the choice?

The same way many other historical events or even hadith transmitted to us, yet their are hadiths which are hard to believe.

Have you ever sought an explanation from a Scholar of hadith to explain a difficult hadith? Also, the whole miraculous birth of Isa (as) is difficult to believe since it contradicts science yet we believe in the word of Allah, so why is it so difficult to believe the word of Prophet saw if it is authentically reported?

Propeht's cousin's naration of the event might well be true but we can't take that to back Qurnaic verses. It should be otherway round. First we should be clear about verses.

And who should be explaining the verses? Allah says that he revealed “book & hikmah” to Prophet saw, meaning the Quran and its understanding to the Prophet hence the Quran should be read with the understanding of the Prophet which he taught to his companions and not thru individual readership.

It still is conjecture. The word kitab (or scripture) is not only used for Quran. Whatever the word scripture represents in that verse talking to maryam, the overall verse can not be used as proof for Isa's return as it could be talking about the time Isa already lived on the earth.

No it isn’t. Conjecture is a theory without sufficient proof. I have sufficient proof to support my theory in form of hadith. You on the other hand have nothing to support what this other scripture is.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Man, that is so simple to understand.

People of Scripture are those that received revelation in the time of Isa (PBUH) or before through other Prophets, like Musa (PBUH)

The clue is in the second line; He will be witness against those people of the Scripture that didn't believe in him! on the day of Judgment. As Ahmed Deedat remarks he will say to the CHristians that you mistakenly worshipped me as a part of the holy trinity.

Nothing about "They all Will believe in him and thus he has to return for this prophecy to be fulfilled"
That's a rather far-fetched interpretation no?

Once again the verse says "And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness."

So, if Jesus (as) has died, why do Jews still disbelieve in him when the ayah says there'll be no one except that he will for sure believe in Jesus before his death.

This ayah also tell me that Jesus' death has to be an event of knowledge otherwise he can't be a witness over people on the day of judgment and clearly there's no evidence of his death except for the event of crucifiction which Quran vehemently refutes.

Verses 21:8 and 21:34 clealry state that Prophets were human and were governed by Allah's Law. Not some Superman style super-being or immortal being. Just incredibly pious special Humans who had an exhalted status, but were none-the-less Human.

No disagreement there.

Such a belief in Isa (PBUH) returning, should stay with Christian belief.

In any case, such a belief Philosophically is at odds with the Quran making it abundantly clear:

Last Book, Last Prophet. No more Messengers (Don't even try the "No More NEW messengers) line" No more Scriptural revelation.

It is what it is. The last book, the last Prophet. End of.

Being "Raised" doesn't indicate a physical ascension any more than it indicates a metaphorical ascension due to rectifying and avoiding the degrading nature of Crucifixion. Read the full verse and it clearly states that the degrading acts did not kill him. Raised, is Allah confirming that Isa's (PBUH) reputation would be exalted; .

It is a physical ascension because even Prophet Muhammad saw physically ascended to heavens on the night of Isra wal meraj. Or do you reject that too? And if you do, well I have nothing to say to you since we do not have a common denominator and we'd be going into circles.

Hence his story emphasized in the Quran the book of Allah! How much more exalted could a human get, than to be mentioned in Allah's own words more than most other Prophets!

Eye-witness accounts mention the resurrection - Could this be conclusive proof that in the same way Christians mistook Isa (PBUH) to be a God-like figure, they also mistook his escape from dying on the cross as a literal Resurrection?

It doesn't matter what the Christians believe, the Muslims take their beliefs from 2 sources: Quran & Sunnah.

If anything Allah is clearly reinforcing the fact that no, Isa (PBUH) did not die on the cross nor was he crucified. That denial doesn't mean he was magically taken up to be with Allah as that would defy Allah's continual position in the Quran that he does not contravene his own laws.

You do not believe in ahadith so I have nothing to offer.


Check and Mate. :misbah

Not at all. Nobody believes that Isa (as) will live eternally, rather he will die a natural death just like everyone else and it will be known to people.

[zimmz]

Tapori good post once again. This is what i am constantly referring to i.e. the meaning of the word used in different places in Quran. Why for Isa we use different meaning?

[zimmz]

Why would they all use the same reasons when they’re supposed to acquire skills in 1) mastering the Arabic language and 2) learning the understanding of deen from not only the POV of their particular school but also the criticisms of the opposing schools/sects.


Because according to you one can't reject the years of study by Ullama. So those ullamas must have teachers who were in turn ullama hence commonly accepted understanding (and translation) was passed on?

What was the critcism of opposing sects in context of Isa's return? Also mention the sects name.


There have been many for centuries, there’s a lot of material out there to read.

That is not true at all. There’s a lot of material in regards to opposing views available in Urdu, Persian, and Arabic. Not much is translated in English though, but you can find a lot of information on opposing concepts from Scholars in at least Urdu for Pakistani Muslims.


Can you refer to some of material? I expect that such a material contains debates between two or more ullama from same or differing sects (excluding qadiyanis). Moreover it would be good to see some material not only from last 100-200 years but the time before.


Would you ask a student or an expert in the field? What would be your first pick if you had the choice?


Both. Logic, wisdom is important no matter who deliver it.


Have you ever sought an explanation from a Scholar of hadith to explain a difficult hadith?


Yes, however in majority of my life I was blind follower i.e. without thinking just saying SubhanAllah was the usual way to go whenever listening/reading about Islam.

Now case by case, issue by issue I try to learn things on my own. If I am not clear about things I'll discuss with as much people as possible (debates, experts etc)


so why is it so difficult to believe the word of Prophet saw if it is authentically reported?


Not difficult to believe if authentically reported and if not in contradiction to Quran.


And who should be explaining the verses? Allah says that he revealed “book & hikmah” to Prophet saw, meaning the Quran and its understanding to the Prophet hence the Quran should be read with the understanding of the Prophet which he taught to his companions and not thru individual readership.


I beg to disagree about bolded bit. Allah himself tell us individuals to read, think/ponder in Quran.

4-82 Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity. -

23-68 Have they not pondered the Word, or hath that come unto them which came not unto their fathers of old?

38-29 a Scripture that We have revealed unto thee, full of blessing, that they may ponder its revelations, and that men of understanding may reflect.

2-121 Those unto whom We have given the Scripture, who read it with the right reading, those believe in it. And whoso disbelieveth in it, those are they who are the losers.

35-29 Lo! those who read the Scripture of Allah, and establish worship, and spend of that which We have bestowed on them secretly and openly, they look forward to imperishable gain,




No it isn’t. Conjecture is a theory without sufficient proof. I have sufficient proof to support my theory in form of hadith. You on the other hand have nothing to support what this other scripture is.

I don't have to prove what this other scripture is because I am not claiming imaginary things.

Your 'proof' is assumption based.

[mate1]

this thread has gotten so muddy, that i dont know what to say, people are just taking personal fights with each other as the experts of everything, whereas they know little about anything concerning ISA AS, Mahdi AS's coming. For Allah's sake stop taking cheap shots at each other, by doing so all you will do is releave yourself of your own Imaan. These things are best known by the Creator. He has his own plans in His own way in His own time, he does not care about whether someone beleives in them or not, He will do according to His own will when He wants. Whether we see it in our lives or from up above, we will see what will happen as ordained by Allah.

[cricfan4ever]

What idiocy. :yk




Sure over a thousand years of Islamic study by people who spend their whole lives dedicated to Islamic theoligy are wrong and some bloke who idolises a Hindu singer has been enlightened with the truth of Islam :zoni

Keep the comedy coming.

this!!!

:))) :))) :)))

[Inziquicksingle]

this thread has gotten so muddy, that i dont know what to say, people are just taking personal fights with each other as the experts of everything, whereas they know little about anything concerning isa as, mahdi as's coming. For allah's sake stop taking cheap shots at each other, by doing so all you will do is releave yourself of your own imaan. These things are best known by the creator. He has his own plans in his own way in his own time, he does not care about whether someone beleives in them or not, he will do according to his own will when he wants. Whether we see it in our lives or from up above, we will see what will happen as ordained by allah.

+1

[azhar329]

Disclaimer: same

@zimmz, jadz and others:

MY PERSONAL observations:

1. Regardless of what universally accepted Ayaat is posted you seem to have YOUR own interpretation/conclusion. First, the word "death" was mentioned but upon closer scrutiny it is clear that that word was not used in the Quran.

Then zimmz said something about being raised in status when no such word was mentioned. It seems that Ayaats are being misinterpreted just to reinforce your own point of view. Who else agrees with the tafsir of that particular Ayaat apart from you, momo etc etc ?

2. Again with all due respect I think I can safely say that none of us on this forum are scholars or even students of knowledge. WE ARE ALL LAYMEN.

The difference is that bros who oppose your interpretation are presenting their position based on the views of the people of knowledge ie how the salaf us salih understood the role of Eesa (as) and whoever else accepted that position eg The four schools of thought, Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah etc. The widely held consensus on this matter supports that which is in opposition to you. That may mean nothing to you but IT MEANS SOMETHING to the rest of us.

(There is an authentic hadeeth which states that the best generation is that of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam), then the next generation is the next best and the next one is the next best). (And they all disagreed with you, they were the closest to the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) yet not one authentic narration has reached us supporting what you state.

And the fact is this (Ive said this before);

With all respect, do really expect people to accept your view when you have not stated a single sahabi, school of thought etc who supports your position. On the one hand you have zimmz, momo etc and on the other you have the sahaba, the tabieen, etc etc

You might say well " who are you ?"- the answer is we are laymen who are relaying the viewpoint held by most muslims and scholars of this ummah and since Islam was revealed.

This is not a matter where the scholars of the sunnah have had disagreement with each other (as far as I know). And the same evidence gets posted and the response is basically, your interpretation - and you are laymen like all of us. (You wont even accept the authentic ahadeeth relating to the return).

There is an authentic hadeeth (Imams Bukhari and Muslim) where it was stated that the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) said (as translated) "What I have forbidden you, stay away from. What I have ordered you (to do), do as much of it as you can. Verily, the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreeing with their Prophets."

In light of the above, Im not going to answer zimmz about Allah's Throne, the equator etc; the link I posted clearly states my position.

The example I can give you is this:

A person has a heart problem. He consults a doctor who is qualified and has spent years in training, working, dealing with heart related patients etc. The doctor advises him based on centuries worth of research, experience, opinion and practical experience by his peers.

On the other hand you have an unqualified person who has some interest in medicine but is not qualified in the slightest in comparison to the doctor and his peers. This person says that an alternative option should be followed as agreed by a few people he knows and a discredited sect.

Who would you go to ?


Until we reach the same answer it may go round and round in circles.



And Allah knows best

[Black Zero]

Woah.

There are enough Primary, Secondary sources from that Historical period from Roman, Christian, Jewish and other groups not affiliated with Christians, that show such a man existed. You can debate his significance, but he did exist, as the countless eyewitness statements of that time suggest.

Just as there are many non-Muslim sources that cite that a man called Mohammad existed in the context of the Prophet. (The delegations sent to non-Muslim countries and the responses back)

I do not want to derail the topic as it's already going no where...

Roman sources speaks about Christians, their beliefs and the disturbance cause by them...nothing more.

even in christian/jew sources, we see a post dated reference ... would not be accepted as a historical fact...

Note: I am not denying the existence, merely saying that the that are no historical evidence....
If you permit me, let me add actually there was no place existed that is said be Christ's birthplace.

[Black Zero]

Once again the verse says "And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness."

So, if Jesus (as) has died, why do Jews still disbelieve in him when the ayah says there'll be no one except that he will for sure believe in Jesus before his death.



well done ARF

this is called a knock-out-argument
great job!

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Because according to you one can't reject the years of study by Ullama. So those ullamas must have teachers who were in turn ullama hence commonly accepted understanding (and translation) was passed on?

And according to you people who do not even have sufficient knowledge of Arabic language or the Quranic sciences have some kind of authority to refute scholarship of generations? Does that even make sense?

If somebody wants to disprove Einstein’s theory of relativity, the least they should possess is some kind of formal education & grounding in Science in general and physics in particular, otherwise no one would take such a person seriously.

Hence, I do not take anyone seriously that has no formal education in a relative field.

What was the critcism of opposing sects in context of Isa's return? Also mention the sects name.

I only know of the 2 sects that reject or manipulate Quranic verses to suit their agendas: Qadiyanies/Ahmedies & Pervazies or Munkar-e-Hadith. Their criticism is based on nothing more than semantics used in the thread you mentioned and rejection of Sahi ahadith.

Can you refer to some of material? I expect that such a material contains debates between two or more ullama from same or differing sects (excluding qadiyanis). Moreover it would be good to see some material not only from last 100-200 years but the time before.

I can't because I have never read a complete book written by an Aalim on this particular subject since it never interested me much, you’ll have to ask a Scholar or a student of knowledge about it.

Both. Logic, wisdom is important no matter who deliver it.

Indeed, but that’s not the question. If you had to trust an opinion which you yourself had no knowledge of would you by default take the opinion of an expert or some shady semi-expert?

Yes, however in majority of my life I was blind follower i.e. without thinking just saying SubhanAllah was the usual way to go whenever listening/reading about Islam.

Now case by case, issue by issue I try to learn things on my own. If I am not clear about things I'll discuss with as much people as possible (debates, experts etc)

Not difficult to believe if authentically reported and if not in contradiction to Quran.

Good, so then why would you call it a “nice” story when it is authentically reported and the chain of narrators are given as well as the fact that it doesn’t contradict Quran?

I beg to disagree about bolded bit. Allah himself tell us individuals to read, think/ponder in Quran.

Yes, but does reading/pondering over verses also mean that ANYONE can interpret the book according to his/her whims and desires?

Will a non-Muslim's interpretation be acceptible to Muslims if he does so simply by reading Quran and Quran alone?

I don't have to prove what this other scripture is because I am not claiming imaginary things.

Your 'proof' is assumption based.

In other words, you have no answer to what this other scripture being taught to Isa (as) is. And of course you wouldn’t because you would much rather rely on “guess work” than authenticated hadith document.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

well done ARF

this is called a knock-out-argument
great job!

Ty.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Disclaimer: same

@zimmz, jadz and others:

MY PERSONAL observations:

1. Regardless of what universally accepted Ayaat is posted you seem to have YOUR own interpretation/conclusion. First, the word "death" was mentioned but upon closer scrutiny it is clear that that word was not used in the Quran.

Then zimmz said something about being raised in status when no such word was mentioned. It seems that Ayaats are being misinterpreted just to reinforce your own point of view. Who else agrees with the tafsir of that particular Ayaat apart from you, momo etc etc ?

2. Again with all due respect I think I can safely say that none of us on this forum are scholars or even students of knowledge. WE ARE ALL LAYMEN.

The difference is that bros who oppose your interpretation are presenting their position based on the views of the people of knowledge ie how the salaf us salih understood the role of Eesa (as) and whoever else accepted that position eg The four schools of thought, Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah etc. The widely held consensus on this matter supports that which is in opposition to you. That may mean nothing to you but IT MEANS SOMETHING to the rest of us.

(There is an authentic hadeeth which states that the best generation is that of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam), then the next generation is the next best and the next one is the next best). (And they all disagreed with you, they were the closest to the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) yet not one authentic narration has reached us supporting what you state.

And the fact is this (Ive said this before);

With all respect, do really expect people to accept your view when you have not stated a single sahabi, school of thought etc who supports your position. On the one hand you have zimmz, momo etc and on the other you have the sahaba, the tabieen, etc etc

You might say well " who are you ?"- the answer is we are laymen who are relaying the viewpoint held by most muslims and scholars of this ummah and since Islam was revealed.

This is not a matter where the scholars of the sunnah have had disagreement with each other (as far as I know). And the same evidence gets posted and the response is basically, your interpretation - and you are laymen like all of us. (You wont even accept the authentic ahadeeth relating to the return).

There is an authentic hadeeth (Imams Bukhari and Muslim) where it was stated that the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) said (as translated) "What I have forbidden you, stay away from. What I have ordered you (to do), do as much of it as you can. Verily, the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreeing with their Prophets."

In light of the above, Im not going to answer zimmz about Allah's Throne, the equator etc; the link I posted clearly states my position.

The example I can give you is this:

A person has a heart problem. He consults a doctor who is qualified and has spent years in training, working, dealing with heart related patients etc. The doctor advises him based on centuries worth of research, experience, opinion and practical experience by his peers.

On the other hand you have an unqualified person who has some interest in medicine but is not qualified in the slightest in comparison to the doctor and his peers. This person says that an alternative option should be followed as agreed by a few people he knows and a discredited sect.

Who would you go to ?


Until we reach the same answer it may go round and round in circles.



And Allah knows best

Excellent post man, absolutely my thoughts. :14:

[cricfan4ever]

And according to you people who do not even have sufficient knowledge of Arabic language or the Quranic sciences have some kind of authority to refute scholarship of generations? Does that even make sense?

If somebody wants to disprove Einstein’s theory of relativity, the least they should possess is some kind of formal education & grounding in Science in general and physics in particular, otherwise no one would take such a person seriously.

Hence, I do not take anyone seriously that has no formal education in a relative field.



I only know of the 2 sects that reject or manipulate Quranic verses to suit their agendas: Qadiyanies/Ahmedies & Pervazies or Munkar-e-Hadith. Their criticism is based on nothing more than semantics used in the thread you mentioned and rejection of Sahi ahadith.



I can't because I have never read a complete book written by an Aalim on this particular subject since it never interested me much, you’ll have to ask a Scholar or a student of knowledge about it.



Indeed, but that’s not the question. If you had to trust an opinion which you yourself had no knowledge of would you by default take the opinion of an expert or some shady semi-expert?



Good, so then why would you call it a “nice” story when it is authentically reported and the chain of narrators are given as well as the fact that it doesn’t contradict Quran?



Yes, but does reading/pondering over verses also mean that ANYONE can interpret the book according to his/her whims and desires?

Will a non-Muslim's interpretation be acceptible to Muslims if he does so simply by reading Quran and Quran alone?



In other words, you have no answer to what this other scripture being taught to Isa (as) is. And of course you wouldn’t because you would much rather rely on “guess work” than authenticated hadith document.

exclamation point!!! :14:

[cricfan4ever]

Disclaimer: same

@zimmz, jadz and others:

MY PERSONAL observations:

1. Regardless of what universally accepted Ayaat is posted you seem to have YOUR own interpretation/conclusion. First, the word "death" was mentioned but upon closer scrutiny it is clear that that word was not used in the Quran.

Then zimmz said something about being raised in status when no such word was mentioned. It seems that Ayaats are being misinterpreted just to reinforce your own point of view. Who else agrees with the tafsir of that particular Ayaat apart from you, momo etc etc ?

2. Again with all due respect I think I can safely say that none of us on this forum are scholars or even students of knowledge. WE ARE ALL LAYMEN.

The difference is that bros who oppose your interpretation are presenting their position based on the views of the people of knowledge ie how the salaf us salih understood the role of Eesa (as) and whoever else accepted that position eg The four schools of thought, Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah etc. The widely held consensus on this matter supports that which is in opposition to you. That may mean nothing to you but IT MEANS SOMETHING to the rest of us.

(There is an authentic hadeeth which states that the best generation is that of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam), then the next generation is the next best and the next one is the next best). (And they all disagreed with you, they were the closest to the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) yet not one authentic narration has reached us supporting what you state.

And the fact is this (Ive said this before);

With all respect, do really expect people to accept your view when you have not stated a single sahabi, school of thought etc who supports your position. On the one hand you have zimmz, momo etc and on the other you have the sahaba, the tabieen, etc etc

You might say well " who are you ?"- the answer is we are laymen who are relaying the viewpoint held by most muslims and scholars of this ummah and since Islam was revealed.

This is not a matter where the scholars of the sunnah have had disagreement with each other (as far as I know). And the same evidence gets posted and the response is basically, your interpretation - and you are laymen like all of us. (You wont even accept the authentic ahadeeth relating to the return).

There is an authentic hadeeth (Imams Bukhari and Muslim) where it was stated that the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) said (as translated) "What I have forbidden you, stay away from. What I have ordered you (to do), do as much of it as you can. Verily, the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreeing with their Prophets."

In light of the above, Im not going to answer zimmz about Allah's Throne, the equator etc; the link I posted clearly states my position.

The example I can give you is this:

A person has a heart problem. He consults a doctor who is qualified and has spent years in training, working, dealing with heart related patients etc. The doctor advises him based on centuries worth of research, experience, opinion and practical experience by his peers.

On the other hand you have an unqualified person who has some interest in medicine but is not qualified in the slightest in comparison to the doctor and his peers. This person says that an alternative option should be followed as agreed by a few people he knows and a discredited sect.

Who would you go to ?


Until we reach the same answer it may go round and round in circles.



And Allah knows best

top post! :14:

[zimmz]

1. Regardless of what universally accepted Ayaat is posted you seem to have YOUR own interpretation/conclusion.


'Universally accepted' does not always mean truth!
Can't speak on behalf of others you referred, but in noway I am giving my conclusion as non-challengeable argument. More than once I said I am neutral on this whole issue yet I am curious to learn more. I am not making up any interpretation or conclusion, merely trying to argu logically. I can understand that when you are out of arguments then 'universally accepted' logic is good option to hide behind.


Then zimmz said something about being raised in status when no such word was mentioned.


Have you read the arguments in favor of 'raised' as in high status in 'Advent of Isa' thread?


2. Again with all due respect I think I can safely say that none of us on this forum are scholars or even students of knowledge. WE ARE ALL LAYMEN.


Although naturally we should all be the students of knowledge but even laymen have right to question the available information :)


(There is an authentic hadeeth which states that the best generation is that of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam), then the next generation is the next best and the next one is the next best). (And they all disagreed with you, they were the closest to the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) yet not one authentic narration has reached us supporting what you state.


Best != perfect. They might have made mistakes intentionaly or unintentionally while passing on the knowledge. Them being best should not stop us from questioning the 'universally accepted' beliefs.


With all respect, do really expect people to accept your view when you have not stated a single sahabi, school of thought etc


So the criteria of judging the argument is: Which famous person said same thing? Instead of what is being said? Good Lord. Afreen hai is God given 'thinking ability' per.


There is an authentic hadeeth (Imams Bukhari and Muslim) where it was stated that the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) said (as translated) "What I have forbidden you, stay away from. What I have ordered you (to do), do as much of it as you can. Verily, the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreeing with their Prophets."


That should shut all of us up for rest of our lives since Allah's order in Quran 'to think/ponder' or 'to read and see for yourself' doesn't hold any importance.


In light of the above, Im not going to answer zimmz about Allah's Throne, the equator etc; the link I posted clearly states my position.


That is because you are out of arguments. No problem we all have our limits :)

I advise you to make your posts shorter since you are merely repeating the 'universally accepted' type arguments over and over again in different wordings.

[zimmz]

And according to you people who do not even have sufficient knowledge of Arabic language or the Quranic sciences have some kind of authority to refute scholarship of generations? Does that even make sense?


See my comments above to Azhar's post.


If somebody wants to disprove Einstein’s theory of relativity, the least they should possess is some kind of formal education & grounding in Science in general and physics in particular, otherwise no one would take such a person seriously.


Allah has set no such condition of 'formal education' to 'think/ponder'. His order is for each and every human no matter how educated/qualified he/she is.


I only know of the 2 sects that reject or manipulate Quranic verses to suit their agendas: Qadiyanies/Ahmedies & Pervazies or Munkar-e-Hadith. Their criticism is based on nothing more than semantics used in the thread you mentioned and rejection of Sahi ahadith.


I thought you were telling me about debates between classical ullamas no matter which sect they belonged to. The two you mentioned are farely modern groups compared to 1400 years of Islamic history. I take it you have no single example of debate about Isa's return between scholars who spend years on learning Quran-o-hadith.


Indeed, but that’s not the question. If you had to trust an opinion which you yourself had no knowledge of would you by default take the opinion of an expert or some shady semi-expert?


Again i'll listen to both of them and decide on the merit of what is actually said by them. In most cases expert will have a better answer but a good argument from semi-expert is not that unexpected. I remember during the lectures in my Uni days professor was often interrupted by his assistent to the correct the 'expert' on some topics, some time by debate. That's the example of merit in contents for you :)


Good, so then why would you call it a “nice” story when it is authentically reported and the chain of narrators are given as well as the fact that it doesn’t contradict Quran?


Because in Quran to me it's not proven that Isa is alive and will return. I am still seeking the answers :)


Yes, but does reading/pondering over verses also mean that ANYONE can interpret the book according to his/her whims and desires?


Obviously not. To ponder doesn't mean 'believe whatever you want'. In broader sense you have to spend efforts in search of truth so read, think, talk, discuss, debate and then decide on merit/logic. What else you'll ponder for?


Will a non-Muslim's interpretation be acceptible to Muslims if he does so simply by reading Quran and Quran alone?


Again why the type of person is important for you? Why can't you just take the message/argument/interpreation on merit/logic?


In other words, you have no answer to what this other scripture being taught to Isa (as) is. And of course you wouldn’t because you would much rather rely on “guess work” than authenticated hadith document.

Yes I am not afraid to admit that for that particular verse I can't say what scripture is referring to. I havn't provided you any conclusion based on guess work.

On the other hand you guessed the scripture to be 'Quran'.

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

See my comments above to Azhar's post.

Allah has set no such condition of 'formal education' to 'think/ponder'. His order is for each and every human no matter how educated/qualified he/she is.

I’m not debating the point about thinking and pondering rather propagation of false ideas and views without subsequent knowledge.

I thought you were telling me about debates between classical ullamas no matter which sect they belonged to. The two you mentioned are farely modern groups compared to 1400 years of Islamic history. I take it you have no single example of debate about Isa's return between scholars who spend years on learning Quran-o-hadith.

I was mentioning that in “general” sense that Ullama write literature on opposing views and not specifically about this topic. I have read debates on other opposing topics such as issues pertaining to Shias and Sunni.

As for debates about Isa’s (as) return, like I mentioned before, I don’t have much interest in this topic just like bro KKWC, it’s a non-issue for me. Also, just because I don’t know doesn’t mean that there aren’t heretics in the 1400+ Islamic history that haven’t raised these points before. I’m simply acknowledging that *I* don’t know. Doesn't mean that the debates or critiques by Islamic scholarship does not exist on the topic.

Again i'll listen to both of them and decide on the merit of what is actually said by them. In most cases expert will have a better answer but a good argument from semi-expert is not that unexpected. I remember during the lectures in my Uni days professor was often interrupted by his assistent to the correct the 'expert' on some topics, some time by debate. That's the example of merit in contents for you :)

Thank you for your lesson in merits but we’re not talking about just one person correcting another but 1400+ years of Scholarship from all over the world verses few odd heretics. If this view had any credibility it wouldn’t find such a hard time and for so long to find any ground, merit or popularity. I have yet to meet a single *learned* person who gives credence to these views. The only people that I’ve seen accepting them are the groups I mentioned before or those with little knowledge in Arabic and Islam in general.

Because in Quran to me it's not proven that Isa is alive and will return. I am still seeking the answers :)

Neither does Quran prove that Isa is dead, so why are you favoring one view over the other?

Obviously not. To ponder doesn't mean 'believe whatever you want'. In broader sense you have to spend efforts in search of truth so read, think, talk, discuss, debate and then decide on merit/logic. What else you'll ponder for?

I don’t disagree with this however this isn’t what I was asking, so I’ll try again.

Do you think that Quran should be interpreted in light of Prophetic tradition & ‘aql by Professionals in the field of Quranic studies or can any tom, dick, or harry interpret his own thing simply because he has the ability to *think* and publish it for people to follow?

Again why the type of person is important for you? Why can't you just take the message/argument/interpreation on merit/logic?

Because in matters of deen, the only form of authoritative work that has bearing upon Muslims is that which is in accordance with the teachings of Allah's messenger irrespective of how plausible some *other* guy's interpretation sounds.

Yes I am not afraid to admit that for that particular verse I can't say what scripture is referring to. I havn't provided you any conclusion based on guess work.

Ok fair enough.

On the other hand you guessed the scripture to be 'Quran'.

Wrong. My theory is supported by the legal text in Shariah, namely hadith of the Prophet saw.

[azhar329]

Disclaimer, same.

InshaAllah it'll be shorter. Pls bear with me. Thank you.

This debate has been going on for more than 2 years which I wasnt initially aware of. Evidence from the Quran and sunnah has been posted repeatedly yet not accepted.

The only thing left in my view a legal ruling should be sought in relation to people who reject the return of Eesa (as) and the coming of the Mahdi. That way the Islamic stance would be known ie is it kufr or not etc.

Re: your post; no disrespect, another circle.

Again Im referred to a layman's document. You have been referred to the Quran and sunnah via agreement of thousands of years of collective scholarship.

Its a no contest.


Allah knows best

[Saqs]

Disclaimer: same

@zimmz, jadz and others:

MY PERSONAL observations:

1. Regardless of what universally accepted Ayaat is posted you seem to have YOUR own interpretation/conclusion. First, the word "death" was mentioned but upon closer scrutiny it is clear that that word was not used in the Quran.

Then zimmz said something about being raised in status when no such word was mentioned. It seems that Ayaats are being misinterpreted just to reinforce your own point of view. Who else agrees with the tafsir of that particular Ayaat apart from you, momo etc etc ?

2. Again with all due respect I think I can safely say that none of us on this forum are scholars or even students of knowledge. WE ARE ALL LAYMEN.

The difference is that bros who oppose your interpretation are presenting their position based on the views of the people of knowledge ie how the salaf us salih understood the role of Eesa (as) and whoever else accepted that position eg The four schools of thought, Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah etc. The widely held consensus on this matter supports that which is in opposition to you. That may mean nothing to you but IT MEANS SOMETHING to the rest of us.

(There is an authentic hadeeth which states that the best generation is that of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam), then the next generation is the next best and the next one is the next best). (And they all disagreed with you, they were the closest to the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) yet not one authentic narration has reached us supporting what you state.

And the fact is this (Ive said this before);

With all respect, do really expect people to accept your view when you have not stated a single sahabi, school of thought etc who supports your position. On the one hand you have zimmz, momo etc and on the other you have the sahaba, the tabieen, etc etc

You might say well " who are you ?"- the answer is we are laymen who are relaying the viewpoint held by most muslims and scholars of this ummah and since Islam was revealed.

This is not a matter where the scholars of the sunnah have had disagreement with each other (as far as I know). And the same evidence gets posted and the response is basically, your interpretation - and you are laymen like all of us. (You wont even accept the authentic ahadeeth relating to the return).

There is an authentic hadeeth (Imams Bukhari and Muslim) where it was stated that the Prophet (sal Allahu alyhi wassallam) said (as translated) "What I have forbidden you, stay away from. What I have ordered you (to do), do as much of it as you can. Verily, the people before you were destroyed only because of their excessive questioning and their disagreeing with their Prophets."

In light of the above, Im not going to answer zimmz about Allah's Throne, the equator etc; the link I posted clearly states my position.

The example I can give you is this:

A person has a heart problem. He consults a doctor who is qualified and has spent years in training, working, dealing with heart related patients etc. The doctor advises him based on centuries worth of research, experience, opinion and practical experience by his peers.

On the other hand you have an unqualified person who has some interest in medicine but is not qualified in the slightest in comparison to the doctor and his peers. This person says that an alternative option should be followed as agreed by a few people he knows and a discredited sect.

Who would you go to ?


Until we reach the same answer it may go round and round in circles.



And Allah knows best

Can I just say I haven't read through the entire thread just yet, but this post really struck me as one of the better ones.

Momo usually does think about things before he posts, so I will not discredit anything he says here until I give it some thought.

I will give the thread a thorough read and reflection and see where it takes me, but for now, this position is the safest for someone like me to take (someone who obviously hasn't studied Islam or theology or the tafsir of the Qur'an).

At the end of the day, whether or not Jesus will return, should not really have any bearing on how we live our life today. There is a tendency for people who believe there will be 'brighter days ahead' to become lazy and wait for those days to come.

I will also say that your 'disclaimers' are very, very annoying ;)

[azhar329]

disclaimer:same


I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO WISH TO KEEP TYPING DISCLAIMER AT ALL. It was as a result of a member stating, (further to receiving advice not only from me mind you) words to the effect of "you think you're a higher class muslim dont you, etc etc"). (I assume he was addressing all those who were against his position).

Then I went onto state that it was advice, take or leave it, I'm no better than anyone else etc etc That became part of the "disclaimer". Basically, its advice from a brother, it doesnt mean anyone is better than anyone else, only Allah knows best who is what.

It seems that instead of arguing with Quran and sunnah often (though not all the time) the response is to ridicule, insult and dilute the debate. (I'm not saying that Im not guilty as well by the way).

Anyhow, Im no fan of the disclaimer and Ive posted enough and said the above enough times to say ITS JUST ADVICE, I'M NO BETTER THAN YOU ETC.

By the way this is the last time Ill explain it insha'Allah.


Allah knows best

[cricfan4ever]

Can I just say I haven't read through the entire thread just yet, but this post really struck me as one of the better ones.

Momo usually does think about things before he posts, so I will not discredit anything he says here until I give it some thought.

I will give the thread a thorough read and reflection and see where it takes me, but for now, this position is the safest for someone like me to take (someone who obviously hasn't studied Islam or theology or the tafsir of the Qur'an).

At the end of the day, whether or not Jesus will return, should not really have any bearing on how we live our life today. There is a tendency for people who believe there will be 'brighter days ahead' to become lazy and wait for those days to come.

I will also say that your 'disclaimers' are very, very annoying ;)

just curious, what is your take on this profound quote from Malcolm?

“I don’t go along with anyone who wants to teach our people nonviolence until someone at the same time is teaching our enemy to be nonviolent.” :D