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saadibaba
21st September 2012, 04:38
Interesting article. If our ideology is so fragile that it gets threatened every time an official uses a Hindi word, than god bless us.


Scandal: Prime Minister Raja Pervaiz Ashraf recently told the Supreme Court: “Mujh par vishvas karen”. By “vishvas” he meant ‘trust’; he wanted the Court to trust his sincerity.
TV channels immediately reacted. Intellectually-challenged actor Shaan spent time making fun of the prime minister who used the Hindi word. Others followed suit. An article titled “A silent invasion” appeared in The News (September 3) lamenting Indian culture’s invasion to destroy Pakistan’s ideology. The word ‘vishvas’ was the missile that would do the trick.
It went on: “Raja’s choice of Hindi vocabulary… is symptomatic of a creeping cultural penetration of Pakistan by our eastern neighbour. This silent invasion is taking place mainly through the opening of Pakistan to cheap Bollywood movies, Indian TV entertainment, DVDs and videos of Indian films and, most insidious of all, the home-screening of popular children’s programmes, especially cartoons, dubbed in Hindi.”
Naively, the article refers to France not encouraging the use of English words but it forgets France, when it recommends a ban on all TV and cinema plus DVD home projections of this ‘cultural invasion’. The intelligence agencies, fired by their perceptions of Indian danger, have always said what the article discussed. Somehow, the cultural invasion by America through cinema, TV and restaurants does not affect our spooks.
America’s soft power has bothered many but no one curtails freedom as a weapon to thwart it. Now Indian soft power irks Pakistan, although it does not disturb Central Asia and Africa where this ‘slow invasion’ is also proceeding apace. Shall we curtail our freedom through police action to secure the country against Indian culture?
Pakistan doesn’t know how to respond to challenges based on culture. A number of things have happened over the past years because of this refusal or inability to understand culture as a value in human life. The people have been forced to look for entertainment on their own because the concept of entertainment cannot be discussed in Pakistan without inviting the restrictive maximalism of the clergy.
After 1947, culture was what joined Pakistan with India. Pakistan has killed culture to face India more effectively in the battlefield. Two contaminations are to be fought. The first is the local accretions that Islam suffered when the Muslims were ruling India; the second is the entertainment that comes across the border in all manner of ways.
When Pakistani singers, musicians, actors, cricketers, commentators and some writers go to India, the Indians pay them good money for Pakistan’s ‘slow invasion’. Nor are they upset by the dominance of Persianised Urdu in Bollywood songs. Indians, in fact, buy glossaries to make sense of Urdu words in them. Instead of using this as Pakistan’s ‘soft power’, some writers want the door in Pakistan shut to regional culture. Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are strangely not bothered about India’s ‘slow invasion’.
‘Vishvas’ in my Monnier-Williams Sanskrit Dictionary literally means “breathing freely” (trust). It gets abbreviated as ‘svas’ and appears in Hindi as ‘svast’ (healthy). Another more familiar derivation is swastika (auspicious). Punjabi has its abbreviation from ‘vishvas’: ‘vasah’. The above article in The News would accept ‘bharosa’ for trust, not knowing that ‘bharosa’ is actually ‘bharvasah’, directly taken from ‘vishvasah’. ‘Vishv’ (full) and ‘bhar’ (full) mark the transition here.
Maulvi Muhammad Hussain Azad in his Sukhandan-e-Fars twins Persian and Sanskrit as sister languages. Iran, too, has its soft power over Pakistan, but with India, the linguistic co-extension bothers the Pakistani ideologue, who sees survival of the state only as a steadily self-curtailing entity, already being nibbled away by the culture-hating Taliban.
Published in The Express Tribune, September 19th, 2012

http://tribune.com.pk/story/438587/vishvas-a-word-that-threatens-pakistan/

Cpt. Rishwat
21st September 2012, 04:58
I think we need a Bangladeshi view on this to get view from both sides.

Down2Earth
21st September 2012, 05:12
our PM must watch star plus too

insaan
21st September 2012, 05:30
Languages like Hindi and Urdu have been another victim to Partition. Both these sister languages were not tied to a religious identity, but the Partition began/sped up the process. In fact, these are not even different languages, but different registers of Hindustani.

I remember watching the parliament session when IK Gujral was the PM. Some MPs objected to his continuous use of Urdu, and he replied saying, Har zubaan se watan ki numaindagi hoti hai. MMS often uses Urdu couplets when he wants to break his silence. But Urdu in India has suffered because of identity politics and is confined to Bollywood, UP and Hyderabad. I would say that it is Bollywood which is keeping it alive among the masses in India.

My mother tongue which is Bhojpuri has many Urdu words. We use words like gusalkhana and gosht. And there is no identity crisis in using Urdu words.

I admire the Bengalis for this. They know religion is not tied to a particular language and proudly use Bangla, which has Sanskrit roots. Some of us could learn something from them.

Cricketismylife
21st September 2012, 06:27
Interesting article. If our ideology is so fragile that it gets threatened every time an official uses a Hindi word, than god bless us.



http://tribune.com.pk/story/438587/vishvas-a-word-that-threatens-pakistan/

Good one Saadi.

To an outsider it seems silly when such trivial incidents are made to be national issues.

saadibaba
21st September 2012, 07:43
@insaan

Agree with your point. Before partition the languages got divided on religious lines and the drift between them was created for political purposes. That is the reason why after partition the founding leaders of Pakistan projected Urdu as the universal language and imposed it as national language when at that time less than 20% of the population of Pakistan actually spoke Urdu. Regional languages were marginalized, in case of Bengali, this decision was the begining of the movement for a separate state for Bengali's. Even now, the protection and sanctity of our ideology is closely linked with the preservation of Urdu in the public sphere.

from_da_lost_dim3nsion
21st September 2012, 08:30
How is this wrong ?As the "PRIME MINISTER" of "Pakistan" you should be expected to speak correct Urdu at least .

wasim-fan
21st September 2012, 08:34
Interesting. So many Urdu words get used in our day to day to talks and ESP. Mainstream meda including films, I never was conscious of this. I think this goes to the heart of the identity crisis. Actually there isn't one but once you try to chlk something out of thin air then trivial things like this get too much importance.

saadibaba
21st September 2012, 08:38
@ fromthelostdimen3ion

I think you are missing the point. Not speaking of correct Urdu in public by our PM is a perfectly fine critique, but to make this into an attack on our ideology and the infiltration of our culture by Indian media is another thing. As per the author, our ideology should not be so fragile as to be threatened by the use of a single Hindi word which after all share it's origins with Sanskrit along with other languages.

insaan
21st September 2012, 08:42
@insaan

Agree with your point. Before partition the languages got divided on religious lines and the drift between them was created for political purposes. That is the reason why after partition the founding leaders of Pakistan projected Urdu as the universal language and imposed it as national language when at that time less than 20% of the population of Pakistan actually spoke Urdu. Regional languages were marginalized, in case of Bengali, this decision was the begining of the movement for a separate state for Bengali's. Even now, the protection and sanctity of our ideology is closely linked with the preservation of Urdu in the public sphere.


During an interaction with an Indian Bengali Muslim (the identities in no particular order) , he told me that some Muslims in India say that Urdu must be the language of Indian Muslims. He said let them speak Urdu, but we love our Bangla. When I first met a Malayali Muslim and asked if he knows Urdu, he told me 'sorry dude, we don't speak Urdu here'. I like that they had not seen any contradiction between linguistic identity and religious identity, and did not succumb to these divisions. Same with Punjabi Hindus speaking Punjabi over Hindi (There was a movement to brand Hindi as the language of Hindus in north India).

Regarding the imposition of Urdu in Pakistan, I agree with the sentiment behind that, that of having a unifying language for a country with diverse ethnicity. It was wrong in practice though. Overnight most of the population were basically illiterate, for they have to learn a new language for government jobs and exams. And not to forget having to sacrifice a part of your identity at the altar of nationalism. In hindsight one can say that diversity should have been encouraged and not forced to merge into a common identity.

India tried the same. Many politicians from north India tried to impose Hindi as the national language. Again I understand the reasons for unifying a diverse country, but it was wrong and thankfully there were movements in south India against this imposition. The television propaganda continued that Hindi should be the national language, but it didnt find many takers. One PM (Deve Gowda) was often ridiculed for not knowing Hindi. Somehow national tag was attached to Hindi, and regional to any other language. It was eventually good for us that people asserted their identity and did not succumb to linguistic imperialism in the guise of nationalism. Recently we had a north Indian leader ( Sushma Swaraj) speaking fluent Kannada when she was contesting from Karnataka.

While Indians from south, east and west stuck to their mother tongue, people from my own region bought the One language for all mantra, and I see a lot of inferiority complex among people who share my mother tongue. Dr. Rahi Masoom Raza (lyricist and dialogue writer) was a Muslim with the same mother tongue (Bhojpuri) as mine. He mentioned once that he was often scolded, as a child, for speaking in the mother tongue in front of guests. Urdu was supposed to be the "proper" language to speak for him. This swallowing of other languages because of some concept of nationalism saddens me. Let me have my identity without telling us what we should be.

speedy
21st September 2012, 08:43
I cant believe this was made such a big deal, I am sure Pakistan media has more more important issues to show than this.

eradicator
21st September 2012, 08:51
Oh the need to save the Pure culture of Pakistan that should have nothing to do with Hindu/Indian culture . First step in achieving that should be a ban on Bollywood in Pakistan that is responsible for attracting the pious Pakistanis to impurity .

speedy
21st September 2012, 09:03
Oh the need to save the Pure culture of Pakistan that should have nothing to do with Hindu/Indian culture . First step in achieving that should be a ban on Bollywood in Pakistan that is responsible for attracting the pious Pakistanis to impurity .

Wow just wow .

saadibaba
21st September 2012, 10:41
During an interaction with an Indian Bengali Muslim (the identities in no particular order) , he told me that some Muslims in India say that Urdu must be the language of Indian Muslims. He said let them speak Urdu, but we love our Bangla. When I first met a Malayali Muslim and asked if he knows Urdu, he told me 'sorry dude, we don't speak Urdu here'. I like that they had not seen any contradiction between linguistic identity and religious identity, and did not succumb to these divisions. Same with Punjabi Hindus speaking Punjabi over Hindi (There was a movement to brand Hindi as the language of Hindus in north India).

Regarding the imposition of Urdu in Pakistan, I agree with the sentiment behind that, that of having a unifying language for a country with diverse ethnicity. It was wrong in practice though. Overnight most of the population were basically illiterate, for they have to learn a new language for government jobs and exams. And not to forget having to sacrifice a part of your identity at the altar of nationalism. In hindsight one can say that diversity should have been encouraged and not forced to merge into a common identity.

India tried the same. Many politicians from north India tried to impose Hindi as the national language. Again I understand the reasons for unifying a diverse country, but it was wrong and thankfully there were movements in south India against this imposition. The television propaganda continued that Hindi should be the national language, but it didnt find many takers. One PM (Deve Gowda) was often ridiculed for not knowing Hindi. Somehow national tag was attached to Hindi, and regional to any other language. It was eventually good for us that people asserted their identity and did not succumb to linguistic imperialism in the guise of nationalism. Recently we had a north Indian leader ( Sushma Swaraj) speaking fluent Kannada when she was contesting from Karnataka.

While Indians from south, east and west stuck to their mother tongue, people from my own region bought the One language for all mantra, and I see a lot of inferiority complex among people who share my mother tongue. Dr. Rahi Masoom Raza (lyricist and dialogue writer) was a Muslim with the same mother tongue (Bhojpuri) as mine. He mentioned once that he was often scolded, as a child, for speaking in the mother tongue in front of guests. Urdu was supposed to be the "proper" language to speak for him. This swallowing of other languages because of some concept of nationalism saddens me. Let me have my identity without telling us what we should be.

Excellent post as always. Agree with everything you said. Unfortunately in Pakistan "linguistic imperialism in the guise of nationalism" as you so elegantly stated got imposed and as expected, brewed feelings of marginalization and cultural isolation among different regional and ethnic groups. Diversity was subjugated and recognized as the polar opposite to nationalism. Unity among fellow countrymen was misguidedly thought to be attainable by having a common language, just like having a common religion justified the creation of the state. Obviously, this was also done to solidify the rule of the elite and to curb regional voices to accumulate more power in the center. But no matter what the reasons were and how relevant they maybe at that time, the results have obviously not been good. Even after the division of Pakistan we still have not learned our lesson. By continuing to hang on to the "one language for all" mindset, we ensure that our ethnic minorities continue to feel isolated and marginalized and that feeling of true nationalism that our leaders so dearly wanted to develop in our citizens, continues to be an illusion. The identity crisis deepens while we switch from religion to language to something else, trying desperately to define our existence. The sooner we can shed this theory of "one size fits all" the better for us.

Itachi
21st September 2012, 11:24
Wow just wow .

i think he was being sarcstic.... :D

Manveer
21st September 2012, 13:05
Very narrow minded view imo .

Centurion
21st September 2012, 15:28
The Bollywood Effect....

Indiafan
21st September 2012, 15:40
How is this wrong ?As the "PRIME MINISTER" of "Pakistan" you should be expected to speak correct Urdu at least .

I can bet the same protest wouldnt have happened if he had used one english word in the middle of an urdu sentence. Its only because the word is in hindi

oyei
21st September 2012, 17:26
I think media is to blame, it is the media who picked up on it, ordinary citizen would have never picked it up, but media does so they can get more rating by inciting the uneducated audience. Indiafan is right, would have never been issue if he had used English word.

moumotta
21st September 2012, 18:25
Prime Minister Raja Pervaiz Ashraf used a hindi word. What irony.

DHONI183
21st September 2012, 18:51
1. Hindi is a language (like any other). Languages are spoken by human-beings. Hindi-speakers are human-beings from what I have known so far.

2. That said, my personal view is that all languages should be kept in their pure forms if the personal related can speak fluently. I get annoyed to read/see words such as "sorry" in an Urdu conversation. I must have been a culprit of it too.

Aggar Pradhaan Mantri Mahoday Raja Pervez Ashraf ney yeŽh keh diya hai tou iss meiŽn krodhit honay waali koi baat nahi hai:danish.

sa88
21st September 2012, 19:04
Really do not see what the problem is here.

Hindi and Urdu are the same language in terms of grammer and syntax. The only difference is vocabulary. Hindi draws upon Sanskrit and Urdu draws on Farsi and Arabic. That said, Urdu makes extensive use of Sanskrit vocabulary as well - common words such as 'sooraj' and 'chand' are subcontinental in origin. Therefore, if a suitable Urdu / Farsi word cannot be found - it should be acceptable to use a Sanskrit /Hindi word.

A bigger 'threat' is the almost casual use of English words by almost everyone. Many so-called educated people are unable to have a conversation in Urdu without using English language words. Even reputable Urdu newspapers casually use English words.

The end result is that Urdu will end up a creole language like, Jamacian patois, which is neither here nor there.

At least 'vishwas' is a word which originated from the subcontinent.

from_da_lost_dim3nsion
21st September 2012, 19:32
I can bet the same protest wouldnt have happened if he had used one english word in the middle of an urdu sentence. Its only because the word is in hindi

English and Urdu are two official languages or communication in Pakistan .Hindi is not. Plain n simple.Now you guys ca twist it however way you want't but it doesn't change the fact that the guy who is in the highest office of the country should at least know how to speak the language correctly. I don't have a problem with hindi but I do have a problem with my Pm speaking it .I'd understand if his mother tounge was hindi or something but clearley its not.NO excuse here .

akheR
21st September 2012, 20:12
The Hindi-Urdu bifurcation has been totally politicized in the 19th for "national" reasons, and it began with Sir Syed Ahmed Khan I think, who said that Urdu was for the Islamic components of the society and Hindi for the Hindus ; parallel to that religious appropriation of the linguistic structure, we witness an ever growing Persianization of Urdu - adding vocabulary - and, in the same way, Sanskritization of Hindi in order to separate them even further.

When Pakistanis will say that "apun ka pakistan jindabad" the problem will only be aesthetic indeed, otherwise both languages are twins who separated at birth because of petty ideological war(s.)


Prime Minister Raja Pervaiz Ashraf used a hindi word. What irony.

What do you mean ?

mithun_minhas
21st September 2012, 21:48
Prime Minister Raja Pervaiz Ashraf used a hindi word. What irony.

Yeah, Raja is a Sanskrit/Hindu word. Even south Indian languages use Raja for the word King.

May be he should change his name to Badshah Pervez Ashraf :fawad

mithun_minhas
21st September 2012, 21:51
I have seen many Pakistani TV channels use word like Dharti(Land), Chinta(worry), Adhar(Basis) kind of words many times before.

Even a lot of Indian use Urdu words these days. Even TV shows, News readers etc.

No conspiracy here.

spaceshot
21st September 2012, 21:56
If usage of 'alfaaz' from different spheres really is a threat, then the society is really on weak legs.
It logically should implode in the coming time (mind u, i am not saying destroyed) and then will get resurrected with good level of tolerance and openness to embrace the goodness of foreign stuff as well.

It will only add to richness of language and culture.
I remember when a group of Pak linguists came to India for a meet, they lamented how the use of proverbs 'Muhavras' is on its last legs.

Pakistanis freaking out on usage of Hindi/Indian words is really laughable. What will those people do about their DNA ?


EDIT: Little correction.. The Hindi word for healthy is 'Svasth' and not 'svast'.

Indiafan
22nd September 2012, 01:42
English and Urdu are two official languages or communication in Pakistan .Hindi is not. Plain n simple.Now you guys ca twist it however way you want't but it doesn't change the fact that the guy who is in the highest office of the country should at least know how to speak the language correctly. I don't have a problem with hindi but I do have a problem with my Pm speaking it .I'd understand if his mother tounge was hindi or something but clearley its not.NO excuse here .

So now you have changed the tune from knowing urdu correctly (which was your original point) to speaking only official language

IMO people having problems with such small things are just insecure. Many US Presidents have used French and other words. Similarly many leaders from most country have used it. We have had our leaders use urdu words for emphasis. Is this issue so big that you have to hype it up? Reminds me of those tin-pot banana rebublic countries where both the dictators and the common man are touchy about their 'honor' and 'respect' because they know that inside they are completely hollow. These small issue provide them a distraction from the real issues plaguing them.

srh
22nd September 2012, 01:56
I dont like it when someone is talking / writing in Urdu and then uses another language's word to describe something for which there is already an Urdu word. I have seen Pakistanis doing it a lot by using English. This is the first time I have heard about someone using Hindi.

spaceshot
22nd September 2012, 01:58
imo people having problems with such small things are just insecure.

+1

Animal
22nd September 2012, 02:15
Aggar Pradhaan Mantri Mahoday Raja Pervez Ashraf ney yeŽh keh diya hai tou iss meiŽn krodhit honay waali koi baat nahi hai:danish.

Mashallah. Aap ki Hindi toh Bisleri ki botal se bhi shhudh hai :yk

Indiafan
22nd September 2012, 02:20
Aggar Pradhaan Mantri Mahoday Raja Pervez Ashraf ney yeŽh keh diya hai tou iss meiŽn krodhit honay waali koi baat nahi hai:danish.

Dude just stop playing with the Pak posters here and admit once and for all that you are an Indian :nehra

Looney
22nd September 2012, 04:20
Stan in Pakistan is also derived from Sanskrit . Just saying , you know . :jinnah

Aly
22nd September 2012, 04:24
Urdu is such a beautiful language ; only complexed punjabis who are in an eternal process of finding a better alternative for their 'not so decent sounding mother language ' can commit the blunder of giving preference to a language like hindi (which in itself has always been impressed by Urdu) over it :D

Geeta Tumharay Pita ki chita ko cheeta kha gaya!
Perhaps ignorant Raja jee is being a bit DAYALO here :D

Aly
22nd September 2012, 04:29
Stan in Pakistan is also derived from Sanskrit . Just saying , you know . :jinnah

This is a common confusion!
Actually STAN is Persian & it's just a coincidence that itt almost sounds & to some extent even mean like STHAN (I.e Rajisthan etc) in Hindi :)

DesiMunda
22nd September 2012, 04:35
This is a common confusion!
Actually STAN is Persian & it's just a coincident that it almost sound & to some extent even mean like STHAN (I.e Rajisthan etc) in Hindi :)
It's no coincidence hero. Read about how Old Persian was influenced by Sanskrit thousands of years ago. The language of the old Iranian Avestas is almost exactly the same as Rigvedic Sanskrit.

Looney
22nd September 2012, 04:45
^ that`s what I heard too .

BTW Raja Pervez Ahsraf ne pehle bhi bijli ko le kar baray vishwasghat karey haiN junta ke saath . Ab sherwani aur naak per chashma pehn kar bara sophisticated ban raha hai .

moumotta
22nd September 2012, 04:54
What are we going to do about thousands of hindi/sanskrit based words like zaat (jaati) raat (ratri) khet (kshetra) etc that are used by urdu speakers on daily basis. Not to forget the title of Raja that the 'renegade' PM uses.

moumotta
22nd September 2012, 05:01
Aggar Pradhaan Mantri Mahoday Raja Pervez Ashraf ney yeŽh keh diya hai tou iss meiŽn krodhit honay waali koi baat nahi hai:danish.

baat 'vishwas' ki nahin 'atmavishwas' ki kami ki hai.

Looney
22nd September 2012, 05:01
Many tribal names are also of non Islamic origins like Bhutto .

tdigi
22nd September 2012, 05:10
Many US Presidents have used French and other words.
What the feck are you talking about? Pardon my French... :yk

Looney
22nd September 2012, 05:11
Many Russians have American names . ^

moumotta
22nd September 2012, 05:11
Many tribal names are also of non Islamic origins like Bhutto .

Wouldn't that be a Rajput name considering Bhutto clan ancestry.

Aly
22nd September 2012, 13:00
Many tribal names are also of non Islamic origins like Bhutto .

Actually Loony to rub a bit more salt on your Punjabi establishment inflicted / mqm nursed GHAOS let me tell you that bhuttos are actually from Ramos Punjabi / Rajput clan commonly known in Punjab as BHATTIS ; it was only that they settled in sindh that they became Bhuttos :D

So apparently even the biggest anti-Punjabi-establishment icon in Pakistan I.e ZA Bhutto must've had some PUNJABI blood running through his veins :altaf

DHONI183
22nd September 2012, 13:46
Mashallah. Aap ki Hindi toh Bisleri ki botal se bhi shhudh hai :yk

Dhanyewaad aapka:).


Dude just stop playing with the Pak posters here and admit once and for all that you are an Indian :nehra

Need a solid proof; otherwise I am not going to admit/confess it:butt.


baat 'vishwas' ki nahin 'atmavishwas' ki kami ki hai.

Iss hee baat ka tou kheyd hai:22:......

*LetŽs stop it before a moderator bans me for a violation (of using other languages than English)*

MenInG
22nd September 2012, 15:04
What threatens Pakistan is insecurity - whether its religion or language

Tera Gawaandi
23rd September 2012, 01:16
Indian PM MMS can't read/write Hindi in Devanagari script, he can't read/write Punjabi in Gurmukhi script, he can read/write Shahmukhi. He survived on his tutti-footi Punjabi and English in India. Singh's speeches are written in the Farsi/Urdu language.

http://www.ummid.com/news/2011/September/22.09.2011/manmohan_singh_reading_urdu.jpg

His Urdu speech on Kashmir -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEzxuo_oupQ

IgnitedMind
23rd September 2012, 01:18
^^^^ haha....and even many of our writers like Gulzaar or Javed Akhtar or even new ones like Niranjan Iyengar or Irshad Kamil take pride in using pure urdu words...

Looney
23rd September 2012, 05:33
Actually Loony to rub a bit more salt on your Punjabi establishment inflicted / mqm nursed GHAOS let me tell you that bhuttos are actually from Ramos Punjabi / Rajput clan commonly known in Punjab as BHATTIS ; it was only that they settled in sindh that they became Bhuttos :D

So apparently even the biggest anti-Punjabi-establishment icon in Pakistan I.e ZA Bhutto must've had some PUNJABI blood running through his veins :altaf

Did I say they were non Punjabi ?

DHONI183
24th October 2012, 14:42
Come to think of it, we all borrow a term or two from Hindi. An example is......

'Suhaag Raat':yk.

AZ
24th October 2012, 16:41
not a big deal but it is pretty embarrassing for your PM to not be able to speak basic Urdu.

samplepiece
24th October 2012, 18:15
What does one mean by pure Urdu? Urdu, as I have read, was the language of interaction between soldiers of different lingual background during the era of Muslim rulers. Their armies were composed of speakers of Turkish, Arabic, Persian as well as Indian languages. Urdu was a 'pidgin'.

Also, Urdu in Pakistan has kept adding words from Persian and Arabic. Does it mean that Urdu remains pure if Persian or Arabic words are added to its vocabulary but becomes impure with the addition of Hindi words?