Saj
29th January 2005, 14:44
What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 25-01-05 07:19
Over the past few weeks, we have had a lot of discussions ranging from technical to personal aspects of Pakistani cricketers on the Aussie tour. We have heard of their failings and praised their performances etc.
But we have also heard some disturbing news and have heard of players indulging in liesure past times which arent very professional.
The question to me is that what does it REALLY mean to be a Pakistani cricketer - to represent Pakistan at the highest level of the game ?
What does this man feel when he dons his Pak cap ? Does he think its an honor, entrusted by the millions of adoring fans or does he think its just another job - a typical Pakistani shortcut to fame which he must hold on to for dear life.
They hide there injuries, make false accusations etc - nothing is beyond them to hold on to this one shot at fame !
[ Whereas I accept that these players are but a reflection of the society they represent ( look at our politicians , public services etc ), but I do believe that this is no excuse.]
Does he feel that his performance on the field justifies any action off the field ? And I am not referring to this one recent ALLEGED incident but one does not have to look far back to remember various allegations of match fixing, drug abuse, rape and more than active nightlife during tours.
Agreed that these are part and parcel of the lives of many modern international sportsman - but we do need to make these cricketers accountable for thier actions - Just because they are in our test team does not mean that they can get away with bloody murder !
IMHO, its now time for PCB to establish and enforce a seperate Code of Honour for Pak Cricketers - no exceptions, no mitigating circumstances - just a Zero tolerance policy where even a hint of impropreity is enough for strict punishment.
Sad as it is, these young men cannot be trusted with upholding our honour.
Regards
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Razzler
Date: 25-01-05 07:24
To play with Pride and Passion even when the team is losing. In other words, to give your best shot for the country. Also, behave off the field specially when on away tours.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: OzPride
Date: 25-01-05 07:57
You hit the nail on the head Razzler. Pride and Passion. Nothing more nothing less. If u dont play with your heart on one sleeve and your pride on the other then u dont deserve to represent your country.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: OzPride
Date: 25-01-05 08:00
In Aus the most important job in the country is the the Australian cricket captain. The baggy green means everything.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Razzler
Date: 25-01-05 08:02
The Baggy Green means absolutely everything to cricketers in Australia. THey have to work super hard to get it and work even harder to retain it.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 25-01-05 08:05
Should we get our version of baggy green back again instead of these baseball type caps ? I recall Imran Khan wearing his and we see Gilchrist wearing his ( slighty tattered ) all the time - Is wearing a hat that makes the difference ?
Regards
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Razzler
Date: 25-01-05 08:06
MIG Hat doesn't mean anything its how you value the hat that matters.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Amit Mishra bowls a wrongun
Date: 25-01-05 08:08
They need to play with PakPassion.
I think with any nation one has to be be proud to represent their nation, it should be the greatest moment of their life and they should be willin to jump through hoops as the saying goes for the sake of the team. Miandad isnt just Pakistan's greatest batsmen ever, he's also their greatest fighter.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: OzPride
Date: 25-01-05 08:11
Its the aura that goes with the tradition of the baggy green. Just like the old joke says "Put a baggy green on a budgie and it will fight an eagle....and think it can win to".
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Amit Mishra bowls a wrongun
Date: 25-01-05 08:13
It is the way the players are made in Aussie domestic cricket that breeds such a culture. whatever happened to "proud to be a Pakistani"?
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: OzPride
Date: 25-01-05 08:15
Correct Amit, thats why Javed Miandad has got so much respect in Aus to this day. Always gave as good as he got and was a real fighter.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 25-01-05 08:16
AMBW: I may disagree with a lot that Miandad has said in the past - but your statement about his commitment is something NO one can argue - if there is one thing that he CAN teach the current crop of Pak players - its gotta be his definition of commitment.
And yes, hats alone are not the solution - England play with the new type caps, yet the commitment of people like Hoggard is unquestionnable !
Regards
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Civil
Date: 25-01-05 13:56
I think an important thing to note is that this current generation of Pakistani cricketers has a hard time representing us because quite frankly they dont know how too.
There has been discussion about the baggy green, but I think we should realize that its more the previous generation instilling the sense of pride in the youth rather than just the baggy green itself.
Look how mature and bursting with potential guys like Salman Butt, Umar Gul, Shoaib Malik and Danish are. I always feel sad thinking how much even more impressive they would be if they had a transition period where they played in a team with the likes of Saeed Anwar, Waqar, Wasim, and Mushtaq.
Not necessarily for the additional skills they would have acquired but the character they would get. Aren't you guys proud when a foreigner mentions Imran Khan or Saeed Anwar? I personally beam with pride because i can say that these people are from my country.
So don't worry Everyone its only one tour, it was a tough one, and we got beat real bad but from it we got to see whose got the character and who doesnt. We have the makings of a very special team for the future, it's just our young players have been thrown into the deep end before they know how to swim.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 25-01-05 14:10
Civil:
I understand where you are coming from but I do feel that youngsters today ( in any walk of life ) do not understand the tremendous responsibility on their shoulders, when it comes to representing our country. Call it lack of "civic or social" awareness or plain and simple pride - they do not understand this concept.
For example, they do not understand that when they act in an irresponsible way on or off the field, they are sullying the name of many millions of their supporters - they do not make the connection between playing FOR Pakistan and PAKISTAN. If they did, you would see less of the type of behaviour we have seen in the past.
Shoaib Akhtars antics are well documented but what of the so called "seniors" such as Wasim or Saqlain ( remember the incident in SA where he got beaten up on the street or something ? )
Point is, if these guys realised the tremendous burden of expectations and required standards of behaviour, they would never place themselves in ANY compromising situation.
Instead, I get the feeling that a player after a few matches seems to act as if it is their God given right to represent us and NOT a privielge.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Civil
Date: 25-01-05 14:35
MIG being a youngster i agree with you
atleast from what i observe when i look around.
You're right we dont have a senior in the team that will give the youngsters a kick in the butt when they start resting on their laurels.
This is kind of what i was trying to say in my previous post.
This can be attributed however to the PCB and the vindictiveness of the Pakistani Public.
Don't you feel we were too harsh after 2003 world cup with the free for all slaughter of the senior players? We lost valuable tools that could have been used in grooming this next generation of Pak cricketers. Even now these senior players i feel are very distrustful of the board and are not contributing like they could to development.
To further compound this the PCB gets rid of Rashid Latif who was born for captaincy and building character. For what reason? for having character and pride in wearing a Pakistan kit, to expose matchfixers. its still not too late to bring him back even if it means just to be in squad and kamran plays he could still be valuable.
So basically if the PCB is gonna sack guys like Latif and Anwar unjustly for being morally correct, what message will it send to youngsters. That having character and national pride is a bad thing, ofcourse
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 25-01-05 14:43
True Civil - I do feel for Rashid and Saeed - although Rashid has lost too many friends - dont know if the youngsters would want a captain who is at loggerheads with the Board itself!
I do think Saeed would have been a great role model for youngsters if allowed to stay ( so is Inzi btw if it werent for his apparently diffident attitude ).
But you know, I go back to my original point - if PCB had a code of conduct and they were seen to be enforcing it, no one would dare step out of line - sad as it is , it seems to take something harsh like this to provide a sense of pride in these guys!
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Waquas_uk
Date: 25-01-05 14:58
most the time its seems akhtar has no respect for the cap he doesnt realise what some people would do for it.
he should never wear it again unless there is a change in attitude.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Saj
Date: 25-01-05 17:36
MIG, whilst it hurts me to say this. What it really means to some of the Pakistani cricketers who have represented their country over the years is money.
A number of them just see it as an opportunity to make money. Sad but true.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Amit Mishra bowls a wrongun
Date: 25-01-05 17:43
What message does it send out when ur an all time great for ur nation and the PCB treat u like sh**?
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Love and Theft
Date: 26-01-05 00:33
While it is not right on impunge on someone's personal freedom, there has been an appalling lack of discipline in Pakistan cricket, both on and off the field. Corruption and selling out etc is part of it ofcoourse, and like MIG said, a cricket team is but a reflection of the society.
But I do believe we can do better than this - atleast in cricket - provided the higher powers are serious about it - which as always they are not. Just the usual statements. These have got very old now.
These are very bad times for pak cricket - but could this be an opportunity to turn things around - or will we see more of the same that MIG has pointed out in this thread.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Gasherbrum
Date: 26-01-05 01:05
More often than not our own players have no clue what it means to represent Pakistan. There are very few who we can say have given their all for the sake of our country alone. We tend to idolize individuals very easily, and the players often let this get to their heads. Cricket being a team game with a very strong emphasis on individual performance often adds to the glorification of the individual. Our team can often be described as a bickering lot that wouldn't pass an opportunity to be in the limelight while pushing other teammates aside. Rarely have we seen our stars get along. Both pairings of Wasim/Waqar and Imran/Javed are cases in point. As soon as a player has established himself in the team, he starts behaving as if it were his right by birth to stay there till the 'board' kicks him out. Rarely do we see our boys retire gracefully. Everything seems to be blamed on the 'board'. Granted that the administrators have not been very partial throughout our history, but every time a player is dropped he seems to point fingers in every direction, and rarely looks within for the reasons.
The sooner our boys can realize that it is a great honour to represent the country in any discipline, and especially so in cricket, the sooner we will be able to see greater pride and determination in our performances. This can be helped by stopping the flow of constant criticism, which seems to be the daily dose of many cricket writers as well as fans in Pakistan. Criticism just for the sake of it only leads to bitterness, and inevitably to contemptuous indifference.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 26-01-05 08:45
Thinking about this a little more, based on comments from Saj and others, this is the REAL meaning of representing Pakistan:
1. Donning the Chand Tara cap/shirt and offering a prayer to Allah to thank him for this honour
2. Have a hint of a tear in your eyes, every time you walk into the field to represent Pakistan
I know above are melodramatic and very "old timer" type attitudes but how else can one describe the feeling ?
Or is it:
1. Knowing that the sponsor/PCB will give you a big fat cheque, fail or succeed
2. knowing that thousands of hysterical fans will be waiting to raise you on a pedestal, fail or succeed.
3. Knowing that since you are a superstar, you can get away with bloody murder ?
Questions, many questions.....
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Schiller
Date: 26-01-05 11:20
To be honest, I have noticed that Pakistanis not born in pakistan or not living in Pakistan are more patriotic when it comes to cricket and follow it more closely than guys back home.
I dont think its about representing the country back home anymore.
I personally have no issue whom theyre playing for, money or land, I just wnat them to show some personal pride and arrogance.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 26-01-05 11:36
Then Umar, my man, the battle is already lost.....
When playing for your country is just another job, with no sentiments attached with it, IMHO, Pakistan might as well start hiring Australian kids to play for us - that way we may get some good results ?
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Schiller
Date: 26-01-05 11:39
Wel sire, this is the general feeling I have gotten from the guys back home from the time i lived there. Very few actually try to do something for the country
Usually its not even money at times but Fame that lures them in.
And we certainly should not hold that as any less to patriotism.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Schiller
Date: 26-01-05 11:40
However
if we go by classical Organizational behaviour theories, then Money is not as important as job fulfillment is perhaps. and the desire to carve a name for yourself certainly matters for a lot.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 26-01-05 17:35
Well, thats where the coach comes in handy !! Its his job to instill this sense of pride ( if missing ) - sadly our captain is not the greatest of orators but maybe Haroon Rashid ( since BWs Urdu skills may come into question ) can step in and make these guys realize the honour bestowed by Pakistan on these players.... Or even a recorded message by Imran Khan !!
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Amit Mishra bowls a wrongun
Date: 26-01-05 17:36
Playing for Pakistan is about fighting like Cornered Tigers.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Farhad
Date: 26-01-05 17:55
You need a forceful and dominant personality at the helm of affairs - more so for a fractious-natured bunch of individuals that habitually make up the Pakistan team. Inzamam simply does not have what it takes to gel the team and engender the fighting spirit which flows top-down. It's inexcusable for a skipper to avoid Test matches on the pretext of a back injury as nowadays even better versions of pain-killing injections are available as compared to two decades ago when Imran strode out there to represent Pak in Aus Series and also in WC.
The ruthless approach of post WC'03 was justified in the sense as players were in the twilight of their careers and a strong message needed to be sent out. For players to be sticking on when their utility is diminished considerably is also not ideal.
Latif, although getting recognition as a whistle-blower is also a highly controversial figure who does not spare a quarter in abusing his political connections to get back in the team. SA tour of '98 where he was made the skipper out of the blue is an example at hand.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: lefthook (129.227.35.25)
Date: 26-01-05 17:58
I think Saj hit the nail on the head!
For Pakistanis, being a cricketer is the ultimate. We do not have a great film industry, even media-wise it is very difficult to break out of the perception of mediocrity. The only way a person can become an international icon / superstar is by playing International Cricket..
For most countries, being a cricketer is just being a sportsman, but for Pakistanis it comes with Superstar status....
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Love and Theft
Date: 26-01-05 23:48
MenInGreen wrote:
> Thinking about this a little more, based on comments from Saj
> and others, this is the REAL meaning of representing Pakistan:
>
> 1. Donning the Chand Tara cap/shirt and offering a prayer to
> Allah to thank him for this honour
>
What about atheists though? Are they disqualified? Or do we feel they cannot represent Pakistan with as much pride and sincerity as anybody else?
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 27-01-05 06:29
L and T:
You do have a point - I didnt want to give it a religious slant but I am just trying to explore the type of things that a coach can say to the Pak team - if we have any cupboard atheists in the team, well apologies !
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Feather
Date: 27-01-05 07:22
Umar pointed out few important things about the youngsters in Pakistan now days...it isn't really about playing for Pakistan anymore. It is all about the fame and surely enough that is what keeps them in the team most of the time. They feel they have an army of fans who will fight for them to be included in the team even if they don't perform. We are also to be blamed for this...just look at this board or emails to bob. Street cricket is all about betting now days and being the hero. We really need a strong foundation for these young cricketers where they can be groomed into fine professional cricketers. Not just only love the game of cricket but know how to represent their country n people.
I think cricket should have a strong connection with the heart and heart is Pakistan! One who gets to represent Pakistan must have the absolute love for the game of cricket and carries one simple goal to perform at the highest level and do the absolute best always! just leave the drama home!
Knowing that one carries the hopes of millions of people who will forever pray for their well being wouldn't really hurt. Knowing that if they don't perform many of them will have a bad day or will loose a night sleep. When they are out there they represent the rest of us not just themselves.
WI weren't the best because they had the best talent in the world but because they had a fire within to prove to the rest of the world wrong! {a right cause to let everyone know being black didn't stop them from walking all over other teams }
Passion for the game of cricket is what is needed...just look at what happened to WI...the money the fame got to their youngsters...everyone wants to play basket ball or baseball why because they would make millions...I mean who in their right mind wouldn't want to make millions?? only some one who loves the game of cricket plays from the heart...we need people who love cricket and take their game very seriously.
lets just leave the drama home please or if you love pakistan too much you can always join the army just kidding
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 28-01-05 07:06
Funny you mention the army in there Feather....looking at todays performance, I feel ashamed that these people represent me. You see, like you Feather and countless others in Pakistan, I was brought up with a fierce sense of national pride - call it patriotism.
My father served in the Air Force for 30 years ( 1948-1978 )and he retired a proud man - with not an extra paisa in his pocket - infact he still proudly tells anyone who will listen ( he is parlaysed after a debilitating stroke ) that he recieves a pension from the Govt of Pakistan for his services.
Whats my point ? My point is that if you want to represent Pakistan, you have to do it with your heart and soul and YES , patriotism is KEY - selfless service to this great state that we call Pakistan, what is it they say "Mumlikate Khudade Pakistan", Allahs granted republic of Pakistan - thats what it takes to represent Pakistan - not a few bucks in your pockets, nor a new fancy mobile phone nor a shiny new Ducatti in your garage - but pure love for the country that has allowed you this honour!
When I see Pak cricketers bowl no balls/wides or batsman throw their wickets away , it makes me wonder if they actually hurt FOR Pakistan or for themselves only - if they feel that a misfield here or there OR a dropped catch is just something to worry about as far as their career is concerned or do they think of the millions of heartbeats back home ?
Shame on them, Shame on them.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Farhad
Date: 29-01-05 06:35
MIG
You must be a proud son as your father served in one of the most elite professions in Pakistan. Generally, there aren't any more proud Pakistanis than the one who serve in our Armed Forces.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Feather
Date: 29-01-05 07:10
MIG I agree with you yaar I mean I feel so proud of my family history just because we have been able to serve Pakistan I take great pride in that. Your father deserves much respect for his services he should be a very proud that he has served our country so should you be which I am sure you are. I hope he is doing well my very best wishes for him!
I really think all we need are 'professional' cricketers along with professional folks running the PCB. Who demand results everything is result driven. I can see a child growing up wanting to respresent Pakistan in coming years working hard all his life so some day he can take Pakistani cricket to a next level. The kid gets his chance does good than he looses it. The fame the money gets to his head his prioriies than change yet he still goes on to respresent all of us. PCB needs to crack down on this really hard...either you act professional on and off field give your 100% or you sit out. The cricketers need to be groomed by the PCB before the step into a national team. I feel many of these cricketers could have grown up just wanting to do their best and respresenting Pakistan but now that they got their chances everything just went wrong.
I really don't expect 100's or best bowling figures from these guys but what I do expect is for them to be professional keeping their heads up taking every half chance that is being offered to them. No matter how good one of them is simply if your not performing your sitting out.
I mean an ideal would be having people who really love Pakistan and love the game of cricket. However If some one wants to play for other things such as fame or money...to be realistic I find nothing wrong with it as long as the person is a responsible professional cricketer. Who knows his representing a proud nation on and off the field that he will be held responsible for his each and every action. I think that person deserves his chance much as the other person in the end it will come down to who performs the best.
Last but not least these cricketers should take great pride in that they are representing a great nation. Winning or loosing least do so in a graceful manner knowing they did all they could every time they went on the cricket field.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 29-01-05 07:12
Farhad: Extremely proud - infact my Grand Father was also a very very senior civil servant ( in Ayubs Days ) and quite well know in Punjab post partition - he too died a pauper - amazing for someone who could have potentially earned millions by his contacts alone.
I lived through the 1971 war in Sargodha where my fathers job was to keep the planes in flying order for the next sortie - we were attacked day and night and we lived in a bunker singing patriotic songs - some may say so what - I would say that it was the Jazba that counts - if you have the talent but no Jazba - then you should not be allowed to represent Pakistan - I am sure you can apply this to many in the current team - take your pick!
Regards
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 29-01-05 07:27
Feather:
Thanks for your kind wishes - My father is in his twilight years now but his JAZBA still shines through - when I was watching Pak cricketers going thru the motions at the end of the WI innings - being hit , then hanging their heads like they didnt want to be there in the first place ( how could Allah be so unkind to them ??) , then coming back to bowl without thinking at all, then dropping a simple catch or misfielding...... I felt that they are betraying people like my father !
Yes, they need roti and paisa, we all do and all glory to those who have the capacity to earn and earn more but the mission statement for this Pak team should begin with Honour and end with honour - not dollars!
Someone, PCB chairman needs to tell them that when they act listless on the field they soil the name of the millions and many more like mu humble father.
Thats why, this post comes deep from my heart - I cannot see the name of this country soiled by some punk in a Pakistani shirt who thinks that by being selected in the national team based on questionnable domestic results is a ticket to instant and eternal stardom ! That culture must we wiped out and culture of honor introduced or reinstated
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Umar
Date: 29-01-05 07:53
A very good post there MIG.
TO be honest, this generation has no sense of what the country should mean to them. This is rife in our entire society and as we agreed earlier, the crickters are a mere part of it.
It is disgraceful that such cowards and gutless people represent us.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Farhad
Date: 29-01-05 14:15
Umar
I don't think we can stereotype here. There are lots of patriotic Pakistanis playing sports for the country. Actually, our bunch is the only one around in international circuit which habitually wears T-Shirts stating "Proud to be Pakistani".
Imran and Miandad were something else though. As Viv said in his autobiography, "they would die for their country."
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Schiller
Date: 29-01-05 14:54
Yar farhad
I have always maintained that generalisation is acceptable but not particularisation and in general this is our generation. a few rare gems but all in all this is what these guys are.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Amit Mishra bowls a wrongun
Date: 29-01-05 14:57
It means being a multi dimensional cricketer with no specialist skills.
Pakistan really deserve better.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Schiller
Date: 29-01-05 15:00
Oh please dont turn this into a specialit - bit and pieces thinggy
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 25-01-05 07:19
Over the past few weeks, we have had a lot of discussions ranging from technical to personal aspects of Pakistani cricketers on the Aussie tour. We have heard of their failings and praised their performances etc.
But we have also heard some disturbing news and have heard of players indulging in liesure past times which arent very professional.
The question to me is that what does it REALLY mean to be a Pakistani cricketer - to represent Pakistan at the highest level of the game ?
What does this man feel when he dons his Pak cap ? Does he think its an honor, entrusted by the millions of adoring fans or does he think its just another job - a typical Pakistani shortcut to fame which he must hold on to for dear life.
They hide there injuries, make false accusations etc - nothing is beyond them to hold on to this one shot at fame !
[ Whereas I accept that these players are but a reflection of the society they represent ( look at our politicians , public services etc ), but I do believe that this is no excuse.]
Does he feel that his performance on the field justifies any action off the field ? And I am not referring to this one recent ALLEGED incident but one does not have to look far back to remember various allegations of match fixing, drug abuse, rape and more than active nightlife during tours.
Agreed that these are part and parcel of the lives of many modern international sportsman - but we do need to make these cricketers accountable for thier actions - Just because they are in our test team does not mean that they can get away with bloody murder !
IMHO, its now time for PCB to establish and enforce a seperate Code of Honour for Pak Cricketers - no exceptions, no mitigating circumstances - just a Zero tolerance policy where even a hint of impropreity is enough for strict punishment.
Sad as it is, these young men cannot be trusted with upholding our honour.
Regards
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Razzler
Date: 25-01-05 07:24
To play with Pride and Passion even when the team is losing. In other words, to give your best shot for the country. Also, behave off the field specially when on away tours.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: OzPride
Date: 25-01-05 07:57
You hit the nail on the head Razzler. Pride and Passion. Nothing more nothing less. If u dont play with your heart on one sleeve and your pride on the other then u dont deserve to represent your country.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: OzPride
Date: 25-01-05 08:00
In Aus the most important job in the country is the the Australian cricket captain. The baggy green means everything.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Razzler
Date: 25-01-05 08:02
The Baggy Green means absolutely everything to cricketers in Australia. THey have to work super hard to get it and work even harder to retain it.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 25-01-05 08:05
Should we get our version of baggy green back again instead of these baseball type caps ? I recall Imran Khan wearing his and we see Gilchrist wearing his ( slighty tattered ) all the time - Is wearing a hat that makes the difference ?
Regards
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Razzler
Date: 25-01-05 08:06
MIG Hat doesn't mean anything its how you value the hat that matters.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Amit Mishra bowls a wrongun
Date: 25-01-05 08:08
They need to play with PakPassion.
I think with any nation one has to be be proud to represent their nation, it should be the greatest moment of their life and they should be willin to jump through hoops as the saying goes for the sake of the team. Miandad isnt just Pakistan's greatest batsmen ever, he's also their greatest fighter.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: OzPride
Date: 25-01-05 08:11
Its the aura that goes with the tradition of the baggy green. Just like the old joke says "Put a baggy green on a budgie and it will fight an eagle....and think it can win to".
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Amit Mishra bowls a wrongun
Date: 25-01-05 08:13
It is the way the players are made in Aussie domestic cricket that breeds such a culture. whatever happened to "proud to be a Pakistani"?
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: OzPride
Date: 25-01-05 08:15
Correct Amit, thats why Javed Miandad has got so much respect in Aus to this day. Always gave as good as he got and was a real fighter.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 25-01-05 08:16
AMBW: I may disagree with a lot that Miandad has said in the past - but your statement about his commitment is something NO one can argue - if there is one thing that he CAN teach the current crop of Pak players - its gotta be his definition of commitment.
And yes, hats alone are not the solution - England play with the new type caps, yet the commitment of people like Hoggard is unquestionnable !
Regards
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Civil
Date: 25-01-05 13:56
I think an important thing to note is that this current generation of Pakistani cricketers has a hard time representing us because quite frankly they dont know how too.
There has been discussion about the baggy green, but I think we should realize that its more the previous generation instilling the sense of pride in the youth rather than just the baggy green itself.
Look how mature and bursting with potential guys like Salman Butt, Umar Gul, Shoaib Malik and Danish are. I always feel sad thinking how much even more impressive they would be if they had a transition period where they played in a team with the likes of Saeed Anwar, Waqar, Wasim, and Mushtaq.
Not necessarily for the additional skills they would have acquired but the character they would get. Aren't you guys proud when a foreigner mentions Imran Khan or Saeed Anwar? I personally beam with pride because i can say that these people are from my country.
So don't worry Everyone its only one tour, it was a tough one, and we got beat real bad but from it we got to see whose got the character and who doesnt. We have the makings of a very special team for the future, it's just our young players have been thrown into the deep end before they know how to swim.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 25-01-05 14:10
Civil:
I understand where you are coming from but I do feel that youngsters today ( in any walk of life ) do not understand the tremendous responsibility on their shoulders, when it comes to representing our country. Call it lack of "civic or social" awareness or plain and simple pride - they do not understand this concept.
For example, they do not understand that when they act in an irresponsible way on or off the field, they are sullying the name of many millions of their supporters - they do not make the connection between playing FOR Pakistan and PAKISTAN. If they did, you would see less of the type of behaviour we have seen in the past.
Shoaib Akhtars antics are well documented but what of the so called "seniors" such as Wasim or Saqlain ( remember the incident in SA where he got beaten up on the street or something ? )
Point is, if these guys realised the tremendous burden of expectations and required standards of behaviour, they would never place themselves in ANY compromising situation.
Instead, I get the feeling that a player after a few matches seems to act as if it is their God given right to represent us and NOT a privielge.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Civil
Date: 25-01-05 14:35
MIG being a youngster i agree with you
atleast from what i observe when i look around.
You're right we dont have a senior in the team that will give the youngsters a kick in the butt when they start resting on their laurels.
This is kind of what i was trying to say in my previous post.
This can be attributed however to the PCB and the vindictiveness of the Pakistani Public.
Don't you feel we were too harsh after 2003 world cup with the free for all slaughter of the senior players? We lost valuable tools that could have been used in grooming this next generation of Pak cricketers. Even now these senior players i feel are very distrustful of the board and are not contributing like they could to development.
To further compound this the PCB gets rid of Rashid Latif who was born for captaincy and building character. For what reason? for having character and pride in wearing a Pakistan kit, to expose matchfixers. its still not too late to bring him back even if it means just to be in squad and kamran plays he could still be valuable.
So basically if the PCB is gonna sack guys like Latif and Anwar unjustly for being morally correct, what message will it send to youngsters. That having character and national pride is a bad thing, ofcourse
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 25-01-05 14:43
True Civil - I do feel for Rashid and Saeed - although Rashid has lost too many friends - dont know if the youngsters would want a captain who is at loggerheads with the Board itself!
I do think Saeed would have been a great role model for youngsters if allowed to stay ( so is Inzi btw if it werent for his apparently diffident attitude ).
But you know, I go back to my original point - if PCB had a code of conduct and they were seen to be enforcing it, no one would dare step out of line - sad as it is , it seems to take something harsh like this to provide a sense of pride in these guys!
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Waquas_uk
Date: 25-01-05 14:58
most the time its seems akhtar has no respect for the cap he doesnt realise what some people would do for it.
he should never wear it again unless there is a change in attitude.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Saj
Date: 25-01-05 17:36
MIG, whilst it hurts me to say this. What it really means to some of the Pakistani cricketers who have represented their country over the years is money.
A number of them just see it as an opportunity to make money. Sad but true.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Amit Mishra bowls a wrongun
Date: 25-01-05 17:43
What message does it send out when ur an all time great for ur nation and the PCB treat u like sh**?
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Love and Theft
Date: 26-01-05 00:33
While it is not right on impunge on someone's personal freedom, there has been an appalling lack of discipline in Pakistan cricket, both on and off the field. Corruption and selling out etc is part of it ofcoourse, and like MIG said, a cricket team is but a reflection of the society.
But I do believe we can do better than this - atleast in cricket - provided the higher powers are serious about it - which as always they are not. Just the usual statements. These have got very old now.
These are very bad times for pak cricket - but could this be an opportunity to turn things around - or will we see more of the same that MIG has pointed out in this thread.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Gasherbrum
Date: 26-01-05 01:05
More often than not our own players have no clue what it means to represent Pakistan. There are very few who we can say have given their all for the sake of our country alone. We tend to idolize individuals very easily, and the players often let this get to their heads. Cricket being a team game with a very strong emphasis on individual performance often adds to the glorification of the individual. Our team can often be described as a bickering lot that wouldn't pass an opportunity to be in the limelight while pushing other teammates aside. Rarely have we seen our stars get along. Both pairings of Wasim/Waqar and Imran/Javed are cases in point. As soon as a player has established himself in the team, he starts behaving as if it were his right by birth to stay there till the 'board' kicks him out. Rarely do we see our boys retire gracefully. Everything seems to be blamed on the 'board'. Granted that the administrators have not been very partial throughout our history, but every time a player is dropped he seems to point fingers in every direction, and rarely looks within for the reasons.
The sooner our boys can realize that it is a great honour to represent the country in any discipline, and especially so in cricket, the sooner we will be able to see greater pride and determination in our performances. This can be helped by stopping the flow of constant criticism, which seems to be the daily dose of many cricket writers as well as fans in Pakistan. Criticism just for the sake of it only leads to bitterness, and inevitably to contemptuous indifference.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 26-01-05 08:45
Thinking about this a little more, based on comments from Saj and others, this is the REAL meaning of representing Pakistan:
1. Donning the Chand Tara cap/shirt and offering a prayer to Allah to thank him for this honour
2. Have a hint of a tear in your eyes, every time you walk into the field to represent Pakistan
I know above are melodramatic and very "old timer" type attitudes but how else can one describe the feeling ?
Or is it:
1. Knowing that the sponsor/PCB will give you a big fat cheque, fail or succeed
2. knowing that thousands of hysterical fans will be waiting to raise you on a pedestal, fail or succeed.
3. Knowing that since you are a superstar, you can get away with bloody murder ?
Questions, many questions.....
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Schiller
Date: 26-01-05 11:20
To be honest, I have noticed that Pakistanis not born in pakistan or not living in Pakistan are more patriotic when it comes to cricket and follow it more closely than guys back home.
I dont think its about representing the country back home anymore.
I personally have no issue whom theyre playing for, money or land, I just wnat them to show some personal pride and arrogance.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 26-01-05 11:36
Then Umar, my man, the battle is already lost.....
When playing for your country is just another job, with no sentiments attached with it, IMHO, Pakistan might as well start hiring Australian kids to play for us - that way we may get some good results ?
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Schiller
Date: 26-01-05 11:39
Wel sire, this is the general feeling I have gotten from the guys back home from the time i lived there. Very few actually try to do something for the country
Usually its not even money at times but Fame that lures them in.
And we certainly should not hold that as any less to patriotism.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Schiller
Date: 26-01-05 11:40
However
if we go by classical Organizational behaviour theories, then Money is not as important as job fulfillment is perhaps. and the desire to carve a name for yourself certainly matters for a lot.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 26-01-05 17:35
Well, thats where the coach comes in handy !! Its his job to instill this sense of pride ( if missing ) - sadly our captain is not the greatest of orators but maybe Haroon Rashid ( since BWs Urdu skills may come into question ) can step in and make these guys realize the honour bestowed by Pakistan on these players.... Or even a recorded message by Imran Khan !!
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Amit Mishra bowls a wrongun
Date: 26-01-05 17:36
Playing for Pakistan is about fighting like Cornered Tigers.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Farhad
Date: 26-01-05 17:55
You need a forceful and dominant personality at the helm of affairs - more so for a fractious-natured bunch of individuals that habitually make up the Pakistan team. Inzamam simply does not have what it takes to gel the team and engender the fighting spirit which flows top-down. It's inexcusable for a skipper to avoid Test matches on the pretext of a back injury as nowadays even better versions of pain-killing injections are available as compared to two decades ago when Imran strode out there to represent Pak in Aus Series and also in WC.
The ruthless approach of post WC'03 was justified in the sense as players were in the twilight of their careers and a strong message needed to be sent out. For players to be sticking on when their utility is diminished considerably is also not ideal.
Latif, although getting recognition as a whistle-blower is also a highly controversial figure who does not spare a quarter in abusing his political connections to get back in the team. SA tour of '98 where he was made the skipper out of the blue is an example at hand.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: lefthook (129.227.35.25)
Date: 26-01-05 17:58
I think Saj hit the nail on the head!
For Pakistanis, being a cricketer is the ultimate. We do not have a great film industry, even media-wise it is very difficult to break out of the perception of mediocrity. The only way a person can become an international icon / superstar is by playing International Cricket..
For most countries, being a cricketer is just being a sportsman, but for Pakistanis it comes with Superstar status....
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Love and Theft
Date: 26-01-05 23:48
MenInGreen wrote:
> Thinking about this a little more, based on comments from Saj
> and others, this is the REAL meaning of representing Pakistan:
>
> 1. Donning the Chand Tara cap/shirt and offering a prayer to
> Allah to thank him for this honour
>
What about atheists though? Are they disqualified? Or do we feel they cannot represent Pakistan with as much pride and sincerity as anybody else?
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 27-01-05 06:29
L and T:
You do have a point - I didnt want to give it a religious slant but I am just trying to explore the type of things that a coach can say to the Pak team - if we have any cupboard atheists in the team, well apologies !
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Feather
Date: 27-01-05 07:22
Umar pointed out few important things about the youngsters in Pakistan now days...it isn't really about playing for Pakistan anymore. It is all about the fame and surely enough that is what keeps them in the team most of the time. They feel they have an army of fans who will fight for them to be included in the team even if they don't perform. We are also to be blamed for this...just look at this board or emails to bob. Street cricket is all about betting now days and being the hero. We really need a strong foundation for these young cricketers where they can be groomed into fine professional cricketers. Not just only love the game of cricket but know how to represent their country n people.
I think cricket should have a strong connection with the heart and heart is Pakistan! One who gets to represent Pakistan must have the absolute love for the game of cricket and carries one simple goal to perform at the highest level and do the absolute best always! just leave the drama home!
Knowing that one carries the hopes of millions of people who will forever pray for their well being wouldn't really hurt. Knowing that if they don't perform many of them will have a bad day or will loose a night sleep. When they are out there they represent the rest of us not just themselves.
WI weren't the best because they had the best talent in the world but because they had a fire within to prove to the rest of the world wrong! {a right cause to let everyone know being black didn't stop them from walking all over other teams }
Passion for the game of cricket is what is needed...just look at what happened to WI...the money the fame got to their youngsters...everyone wants to play basket ball or baseball why because they would make millions...I mean who in their right mind wouldn't want to make millions?? only some one who loves the game of cricket plays from the heart...we need people who love cricket and take their game very seriously.
lets just leave the drama home please or if you love pakistan too much you can always join the army just kidding
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 28-01-05 07:06
Funny you mention the army in there Feather....looking at todays performance, I feel ashamed that these people represent me. You see, like you Feather and countless others in Pakistan, I was brought up with a fierce sense of national pride - call it patriotism.
My father served in the Air Force for 30 years ( 1948-1978 )and he retired a proud man - with not an extra paisa in his pocket - infact he still proudly tells anyone who will listen ( he is parlaysed after a debilitating stroke ) that he recieves a pension from the Govt of Pakistan for his services.
Whats my point ? My point is that if you want to represent Pakistan, you have to do it with your heart and soul and YES , patriotism is KEY - selfless service to this great state that we call Pakistan, what is it they say "Mumlikate Khudade Pakistan", Allahs granted republic of Pakistan - thats what it takes to represent Pakistan - not a few bucks in your pockets, nor a new fancy mobile phone nor a shiny new Ducatti in your garage - but pure love for the country that has allowed you this honour!
When I see Pak cricketers bowl no balls/wides or batsman throw their wickets away , it makes me wonder if they actually hurt FOR Pakistan or for themselves only - if they feel that a misfield here or there OR a dropped catch is just something to worry about as far as their career is concerned or do they think of the millions of heartbeats back home ?
Shame on them, Shame on them.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Farhad
Date: 29-01-05 06:35
MIG
You must be a proud son as your father served in one of the most elite professions in Pakistan. Generally, there aren't any more proud Pakistanis than the one who serve in our Armed Forces.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Feather
Date: 29-01-05 07:10
MIG I agree with you yaar I mean I feel so proud of my family history just because we have been able to serve Pakistan I take great pride in that. Your father deserves much respect for his services he should be a very proud that he has served our country so should you be which I am sure you are. I hope he is doing well my very best wishes for him!
I really think all we need are 'professional' cricketers along with professional folks running the PCB. Who demand results everything is result driven. I can see a child growing up wanting to respresent Pakistan in coming years working hard all his life so some day he can take Pakistani cricket to a next level. The kid gets his chance does good than he looses it. The fame the money gets to his head his prioriies than change yet he still goes on to respresent all of us. PCB needs to crack down on this really hard...either you act professional on and off field give your 100% or you sit out. The cricketers need to be groomed by the PCB before the step into a national team. I feel many of these cricketers could have grown up just wanting to do their best and respresenting Pakistan but now that they got their chances everything just went wrong.
I really don't expect 100's or best bowling figures from these guys but what I do expect is for them to be professional keeping their heads up taking every half chance that is being offered to them. No matter how good one of them is simply if your not performing your sitting out.
I mean an ideal would be having people who really love Pakistan and love the game of cricket. However If some one wants to play for other things such as fame or money...to be realistic I find nothing wrong with it as long as the person is a responsible professional cricketer. Who knows his representing a proud nation on and off the field that he will be held responsible for his each and every action. I think that person deserves his chance much as the other person in the end it will come down to who performs the best.
Last but not least these cricketers should take great pride in that they are representing a great nation. Winning or loosing least do so in a graceful manner knowing they did all they could every time they went on the cricket field.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 29-01-05 07:12
Farhad: Extremely proud - infact my Grand Father was also a very very senior civil servant ( in Ayubs Days ) and quite well know in Punjab post partition - he too died a pauper - amazing for someone who could have potentially earned millions by his contacts alone.
I lived through the 1971 war in Sargodha where my fathers job was to keep the planes in flying order for the next sortie - we were attacked day and night and we lived in a bunker singing patriotic songs - some may say so what - I would say that it was the Jazba that counts - if you have the talent but no Jazba - then you should not be allowed to represent Pakistan - I am sure you can apply this to many in the current team - take your pick!
Regards
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: MenInGreen
Date: 29-01-05 07:27
Feather:
Thanks for your kind wishes - My father is in his twilight years now but his JAZBA still shines through - when I was watching Pak cricketers going thru the motions at the end of the WI innings - being hit , then hanging their heads like they didnt want to be there in the first place ( how could Allah be so unkind to them ??) , then coming back to bowl without thinking at all, then dropping a simple catch or misfielding...... I felt that they are betraying people like my father !
Yes, they need roti and paisa, we all do and all glory to those who have the capacity to earn and earn more but the mission statement for this Pak team should begin with Honour and end with honour - not dollars!
Someone, PCB chairman needs to tell them that when they act listless on the field they soil the name of the millions and many more like mu humble father.
Thats why, this post comes deep from my heart - I cannot see the name of this country soiled by some punk in a Pakistani shirt who thinks that by being selected in the national team based on questionnable domestic results is a ticket to instant and eternal stardom ! That culture must we wiped out and culture of honor introduced or reinstated
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Umar
Date: 29-01-05 07:53
A very good post there MIG.
TO be honest, this generation has no sense of what the country should mean to them. This is rife in our entire society and as we agreed earlier, the crickters are a mere part of it.
It is disgraceful that such cowards and gutless people represent us.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Farhad
Date: 29-01-05 14:15
Umar
I don't think we can stereotype here. There are lots of patriotic Pakistanis playing sports for the country. Actually, our bunch is the only one around in international circuit which habitually wears T-Shirts stating "Proud to be Pakistani".
Imran and Miandad were something else though. As Viv said in his autobiography, "they would die for their country."
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Schiller
Date: 29-01-05 14:54
Yar farhad
I have always maintained that generalisation is acceptable but not particularisation and in general this is our generation. a few rare gems but all in all this is what these guys are.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Amit Mishra bowls a wrongun
Date: 29-01-05 14:57
It means being a multi dimensional cricketer with no specialist skills.
Pakistan really deserve better.
Re: What does it REALLY mean to represent Pakistan ?
Author: Schiller
Date: 29-01-05 15:00
Oh please dont turn this into a specialit - bit and pieces thinggy