Mohammad Asif the bowler we always needed?

[sharuk]

The perfect line and length bowler with movement off and on the pitch?

[Officer Barbrady]

Yes he is the deal and with Gul he makes an excellent new ball attack. Pakistan, for whatever reasons, picked the right opening bowlers for this game. Both are a must for the test side.

[James]

McGrath and Hoggard are the best controlling Test bowlers out there at the moment, however this Asif seems to bowl well in every game. Very interesting to watch his progress, who knows what he could achieve?

[fast]

good line and lenth bowler

[Billy]

A very promising young bowler indeed and, although it's probably a little bit early to get overexcited, I'd certainly predict a bright future.

Needs a haircut mind.

[Noman]

I like his hair-cut...

He remind me of the old Wasim Akram

[alghazzali]

His average has also gone below the 30 mark in this match, let's hope it's near 20 at the end of his career.

[UJ]

A very promising young bowler indeed and, although it's probably a little bit early to get overexcited, I'd certainly predict a bright future.

Needs a haircut mind.

I think there are others in line before him in need of a serious hair cut--Dhoni, Sami, Malinga to name a few. ;-)

Another good performance by Asif today. It creates an interesting dilemma for the selectors once Shoaib is fully fit again. Do they keep Gul in or replace him with Rana?

[Hashim]

Asif is a top class bowler and he will only get better. We could have a real world class bowler here in Mohammad Asif. His line and length is immaculate and the swing he get's is very impressive. I think with Waqar's help he will get even better, his pace is also decent, a true fast bowler!

[Sultan Yusuf]

Yes Asif is a great find and is the type of accurate SEAM bowler we've been looking for. I just hope the selectors etc don't go crazy with it and try and pack the whole team with line and length merchants.....

[KB]

He gets the ball to move both ways. The in-cutter is especially dangerous. He also gets bounce and is very accurate. Probably just needs to work on his fitness.

But he really is a good prospect for Pakistan.

[Pindiwal]

Great performance by Asif, if he can add a little bit of speed and with, he will be awesome. I just can't wait to see Asif and Gul on English pitches this summer. I am sure with Waqars guidance these two will be great assets for the Pakistan in years to come.

[Hashim]

Pakistan has the best bowling attack in the world with Shoaib Sami and Asif, backed up Gul and the world class spinner Kaneria, what a bowling attack!

England will be destroyed on their own home soil!

[off_the_hook]

Asif bowled brilliantly...............

[James]

I'd have England's full strength attack over Pakistan's every day of the week.

[Sultan Yusuf]

I'd have England's full strength attack over Pakistan's every day of the week.

Good for you, but bad for team England!

[Uzzy]

I'd have England's full strength attack over Pakistan's every day of the week.

Vice versa.

[James]

- Hoggard is better than Asif. Hoggard has taken wickets against everyone and run through batting lineups all around the world; Asif has just played a few tests.
- Flintoff is better than Sami. Flintoff is world class, Sami is just an inconsistent sprayer with some pace.
- Jones is better than Gul, by a mile.

On the flip side, the things Pakistan have are an amazing strike bowler (Shoaib), who is miles better than the guy who we still persist with as a strike bowler when he's fit (Harmison). And Kaneria is better than Monty/Giles.

Both quality bowling attacks but England edge it because their seam attack is so good. We can usually take 20 wickets nowadays by just playing one hard-working spinner, and focusing mainly on seam.

[Uzzy]

- Hoggard is better than Asif. Hoggard has taken wickets against everyone and run through batting lineups all around the world; Asif has just played a few tests.
- Flintoff is better than Sami. Flintoff is world class, Sami is just an inconsistent sprayer with some pace.
- Jones is better than Gul, by a mile.

On the flip side, the things Pakistan have are an amazing strike bowler (Shoaib), who is miles better than the guy who we still persist with as a strike bowler when he's fit (Harmison). And Kaneria is better than Monty/Giles.

Both quality bowling attacks but England edge it because their seam attack is so good. We can usually take 20 wickets nowadays by just playing one hard-working spinner, and focusing mainly on seam.

Obviously Hoggard, Flintoff, and Jones are better than Asif, Sami, Gul respectively. But the thing is these two bowlers espeically Asif has impressed alot of people in such a short amount of time. He has only played 3 or 4 test matches and Dravid himself gave him compliments saying, he looks a bowler who is playing in his 30th or so test match instead of 3. He may not have had a chance like Hoggard has to run through batting lineups around the world. But from what we have seen of him so far, he has run through the England team taking 10 wickets in a warm up test match, he has run through the Indian top order and now Sri Lanka.

[shan]

- Hoggard is better than Asif. Hoggard has taken wickets against everyone and run through batting lineups all around the world; Asif has just played a few tests.
- Flintoff is better than Sami. Flintoff is world class, Sami is just an inconsistent sprayer with some pace.
- Jones is better than Gul, by a mile.

On the flip side, the things Pakistan have are an amazing strike bowler (Shoaib), who is miles better than the guy who we still persist with as a strike bowler when he's fit (Harmison). And Kaneria is better than Monty/Giles.

Both quality bowling attacks but England edge it because their seam attack is so good. We can usually take 20 wickets nowadays by just playing one hard-working spinner, and focusing mainly on seam.


Jones who?

another version of injury prone Bond

one test in ashes dosn't make him world class

[James]

Obviously Hoggard, Flintoff, and Jones are better than Asif, Sami, Gul respectively. But the thing is these two bowlers espeically Asif has impressed alot of people in such a short amount of time. He has only played 3 or 4 test matches and Dravid himself gave him compliments saying, he looks a bowler who is playing in his 30th or so test match instead of 3. He may not have had a chance like Hoggard has to run through batting lineups around the world. But from what we have seen of him so far, he has run through the England team taking 10 wickets in a warm up test match, he has run through the Indian top order and now Sri Lanka.

Sorry but I base my opinions on fact, not conjecture. Asif has been very good so far, but it's a few tests, not dozens like Hoggy. It's all very well saying Asif going to do this and that, but he hasn't has he?

Hoggard has been there, done that and done the t-shirt, which is why any comparison between the two (or even worse, Asif and McGrath) is borderline laughable at the moment.

[James]

Jones who?

another version of injury prone Bond

one test in ashes dosn't make him world class

I said Jones was better than Gul. So what's Umar Gul done that suggests he is better than Jones? Nothing, next please.

[aabbasi]

" Hoggard is better than Asif. Hoggard has taken wickets against everyone and run through batting lineups all around the world; Asif has just played a few tests."
>>> Since His Comeback, Asif has played against England, India and Srilanka. He managed to rip through all the batting lineups. Infact, he took a 10-fer in a side match against england.

"
- Flintoff is better than Sami. Flintoff is world class, Sami is just an inconsistent sprayer with some pace. "
> Nobody is comparing Flintoff with Sami... You can compare him with Rana. Rana has had good figures both in Austrlia, England, Pakistan and India. When both played in same match conditions, Flintoff was unable to cause any serious problems to pakistan batsman, while rana almost ripped through english batting.

"- Jones is better than Gul, by a mile."
>> Yeah, i think Jones is definitely better.

"
On the flip side, the things Pakistan have are an amazing strike bowler (Shoaib), who is miles better than the guy who we still persist with as a strike bowler when he's fit (Harmison). And Kaneria is better than Monty/Giles. "
Shoaib/Kaneria and Afridi definitely better.

[James]

Has Asif ripped through Australia, India, SA, NZ, Windies, etc, and taken a test hat trick; and been consistently good around the world, as well as at home, over dozens of tests?

No, apart from the India bit he hasn't, but Hoggard has.

That's the thing with PP, a young Pakistani bowler can have 2-3 good test innings and be good in a warm up game, and he is suddenly on par with people like Hoggard or McGrath, simply because of people's guesswork about what he might do in the future.

Complete and utter joke.

[Uzzy]

Sorry but I base my opinions on fact, not conjecture. Asif has been very good so far, but it's a few tests, not dozens like Hoggy. It's all very well saying Asif going to do this and that, but he hasn't has he?

Hoggard has been there, done that and done the t-shirt, which is why any comparison between the two (or even worse, Asif and McGrath) is borderline laughable at the moment.

Sorry but would you like to point out where i stated conjecture and not facts? What i have said of him is true. In fact i said he may not have run through batting lineups around the world like Hoggard has done or played as many tests as him but from what we have seen of him, he has run through the England team taking a 10-fer, he has run through the Indian top order and now the Sri Lankans top order. In every game he has played since his underwhelming debut in Australia he has run through all teams.

[James]

A few poor tests and the Pakpassion community will be saying he's the one that got away, he neded nurturing more, etc.

You simply cant compare a promising kid, with such experienced campaigners who have been in the sun, but also had hard times and bounced back to be amazing again.

[Pak_Attack]

- Hoggard is better than Asif. Hoggard has taken wickets against everyone and run through batting lineups all around the world; Asif has just played a few tests.
- Flintoff is better than Sami. Flintoff is world class, Sami is just an inconsistent sprayer with some pace.
- Jones is better than Gul, by a mile.

On the flip side, the things Pakistan have are an amazing strike bowler (Shoaib), who is miles better than the guy who we still persist with as a strike bowler when he's fit (Harmison). And Kaneria is better than Monty/Giles.

Both quality bowling attacks but England edge it because their seam attack is so good. We can usually take 20 wickets nowadays by just playing one hard-working spinner, and focusing mainly on seam.

Asif alone is better than any of the english bowlers believe me this kid this is class. Yeah youre correct in saying Flintoff is better than Sami, but I would take Shoaib over Flintoff. On flat tracks pakistani bowlers pick up wickets regularly unlike the english seam attack when they where over their, its okay getting wickets when the pitch is helpful but its when conditions are are difficult you can tell how good a player is. I cant wait to see them in english conditions.

[James]

Another one brainwashed by the Team Pakistan hype machine...

[Pak_Attack]

That's the thing with PP, a young Pakistani bowler can have 2-3 good test innings and be good in a warm up game, and he is suddenly on par with people like Hoggard or McGrath, simply because of people's guesswork about what he might do in the future.

Complete and utter joke.

Hoggard is a very good bowler but he is not up with McGrath, McGrath is a cricketing great, a legend.

[sehsan]

I'd have England's full strength attack over Pakistan's every day of the week.


Don’t agree with you. I fully agree that England bowling attack is best in the world on English conditions at the moment BUT if you look at the Pakistan bowling attack, it is not far behind. England have, Flintoff, harminson, jones, hoggard, giles and Pakistan have shoaib, asif, gul or rana and kaneria PLUS afridi or razzaq. This is as good as it can be. Pakistan vs England is going to be really a good one and I feel the team who will bowl better would win. I cannot say Pakistan bowling attack is better then England and vice versa

[James]

Comparing Asif with either is laughable because they've both done a lot more than him and been consistently good performers for a long time. Asif is POTENTIALLY as good/better than the English bowlers. He isn't yet.

[Uzzy]

Has Asif ripped through Australia, India, SA, NZ, Windies, etc, and taken a test hat trick; and been consistently good around the world, as well as at home, over dozens of tests?

No, apart from the India bit he hasn't, but Hoggard has.

That's the thing with PP, a young Pakistani bowler can have 2-3 good test innings and be good in a warm up game, and he is suddenly on par with people like Hoggard or McGrath, simply because of people's guesswork about what he might do in the future.

Complete and utter joke.

Whippy, would you like to tell me who here is comparing him to Hoggard and McGrath? As far as im concerned your the one doing the comparing. How can Asif rip through the said teams when he hasnt played against half of them? What im trying to make you understand is that in the games he has played so far he has run through the batting lienups. England, India and Sri Lanka.

Now seeing as you want to compare the two. Lets do a small comparison between them. This is a comparison of both playing their first 3 test matches. Red is Hoggard.

3 93 319 9 3/79 35.44

3 83.1 317 12 4/41 39.62

After their first 3 matches Asif has taken 3 more wickets than Hoggard and has a better career bowling figure than what Hoggard had in his 3rd test. The average for Asif is incorrect. Asifs average is actually around the 30 mark on the up to date stats they showed during the game today.

Now if Asif has had such a good start so far its safe to say he will become a great bowler for us.

[James]

'So far it's safe to say he will become a great bowler' - there's your conjecture right there.

What exactly do those stats tell me? That Asif has had a great start, and Hoggard had a decent start. Wow.

What do they have to do with the gulf in class between the achievements of the two?

[Uzzy]

'So far it's safe to say he will become a great bowler' - there's your conjecture right there.

What exactly do those stats tell me? That Asif has had a great start, and Hoggard had a decent start. Wow.

What do they have to do with the gulf in class between the achievements of the two?

Why dont you understand?!? Obviously Asif is nowhere near Hoggard or accomplished what he has through his career, and no one is comparing him to Hoggard. Please list me the name of who are comparing apart from you. All im trying to tell you is that from his short career so far he has performed against all teams he has been put up against, two of them being the best in the world in India and England. Now its unfair to say Hoggard has done so and so and Asif hasnt when he has only played in 3 test matches. I think the comparison between them should start after Asif has played around 50 tests and played against all the teams around the world. But in the meantime whats wrong in saying that he is a good find for Pakistan and could potentially become a great bowler?

[James]

Nowt wrong with saying he is a good find and is potentially a great bowler. Potentially is the right word to use.

When brainwashed people on PP start saying he is better than all the English bowlers, world class bowler, will undoubtedly be in the side for years to come, will be as good as McGrath and such (which has been said), that is when it becomes laughable, because those people really don't know anything, they're just guessing. If he achieves those things then fair play, but he hasn't

It's not that I don't understand, I am simply on the other side of the fence to you.

[Uzzy]

Well i have never come across posts on PP saying that Asif is better than the English Bowlers or him being a world class bowler etc. If there have been posts like that i doubt they meant it literally, most probably a knee jerk reaction or something. In your opinion what do you think of Asif right now and do you think he could potentially become a great world class bowler?

[Slugger]

class mat balls runs wkts bbi bbm ave econ sr 4 5 10
Tests 51 10524 5765 197 7/61 12/205 29.26 3.28 53.42 11 6 1
ODIs 24 1204 1034 32 5/49 5/49 32.31 5.15 37.62 0 1 0

Hoggard stats - how are these impressive in any manner?

[James]

And I quote...

McGrath and Hoggard are the best controlling Test bowlers out there at the moment, however this Asif seems to bowl well in every game. Very interesting to watch his progress, who knows what he could achieve?

Nowhere have I said he will do this, just that he might. Thats a fair assessment of a good young player.

[Uzzy]

Whippy, you keep on putting Hoggard and McGrath in the same sentence. Hoggard is good no doubt about that but not on the same level as McGrath. You are starting to overrate him a tad bit.

[Slugger]

hey whippy when you're done playing the minnows in india and bangladesh come play pakistan for another whitewash reality check and we'll show you how to really reverse swing it ok?

[the_game]

Whippy, no offence, but your bowling attack doesn't even have one genuine wicket taking spinner! I would take Pakistan's attack over England's for that sole reason mate. And I'm sure Kaneria can create the same kind of problems Mushtaq did for England in the 1996 tour if you do remember :).

[James]

Whats wrong with saying McGrath and Hoggard are the best controlling bowlers in tests at the moment?

If theres a level of bowling, McGrath is on the great level. Hoggard is just good. However with the lack of great pacemen out there now, Hoggard is nearly as good as you are gonna find.

I'm not even gonna reply at length to this Slugger character. Lets say this. So he averages less than 30 per wkt. And he takes an average of 2 wkts per tests innings. His best is 7 wkts in an innings and has taken a couple of 5-fers and a 10-fer. For someone who has played 50 tests, that is solid.

And like I said, Game, our seam attack usually can take 20 wkts on their own. The only time recently we struggled to take 20 wkts was in Pakistan, which was also our worst performance for a while, very little went right.

You wouldnt swap 4 excellent seamers for a good spinner would you? Surely you measure bowling attacks on how efficiently they take 20 wkts.

[the_game]

And like I said, Game, our seam attack usually can take 20 wkts on their own. The only time recently we struggled to take 20 wkts was in Pakistan, which was also our worst performance for a while, very little went right.

You wouldnt swap 4 excellent seamers for a good spinner would you? Surely you measure bowling attacks on how efficiently they take 20 wkts.

I guess things will be settled in the coming series. I would reserve my judgement on wicket-taking ability until that series has finished. I just don't want anyone injured and want both sides to play with their strongest eleven.

[James]

Agreed...then none of us can say it was because of injuries that we lost :)

[Uzzy]

Thats why we want England at their best ;-)

[Slugger]

Whats wrong with saying McGrath and Hoggard are the best controlling bowlers in tests at the moment?

If theres a level of bowling, McGrath is on the great level. Hoggard is just good. However with the lack of great pacemen out there now, Hoggard is nearly as good as you are gonna find.

I'm not even gonna reply at length to this Slugger character. Lets say this. So he averages less than 30 per wkt. And he takes an average of 2 wkts per tests innings. His best is 7 wkts in an innings and has taken a couple of 5-fers and a 10-fer. For someone who has played 50 tests, that is solid.

And like I said, Game, our seam attack usually can take 20 wkts on their own. The only time recently we struggled to take 20 wkts was in Pakistan, which was also our worst performance for a while, very little went right.

You wouldnt swap 4 excellent seamers for a good spinner would you? Surely you measure bowling attacks on how efficiently they take 20 wkts.


what's the matter cat got your tongue? 30 runs per wicket and he's being called one of the two best control bowlers in the world...you're a joke "pp post of the week"...

[James]

Name the geneuine controlling bowlers around at the moment that have a better average over 50 tests, and have been as good as Hoggard has in the last 12-18 months.

McGrath has, who else? I fear the cat will be getting your tongue soon.

[z10]

I find it interesting that Hoggard is being called a better bowler than Asif based on the lone fact that he has played more tests.

Such enlightened logic, i wonder why it never crossed my mind.

[James]

I said he's better because he's done more. Which is true.

And Hoggard's form has hardly been poor lately anyway. Watch him bowl for gods sake. This is like talking to one big brick wall.

[z10]

Barry Richards played less than 10 tests, but he is rated as a legend of the game. How much do you think he acheived?

[James]

- Hoggard has a solid record over 50 tests
- Hoggard has been in excellent, occasionally spectacular form over the last 2 years (apart from 1 series)

- Asif has a solid record over a couple of tests.
- Asif has been in excellent, occasionally spectacular form over the last few months.

Hoggard is the bowler I'd rather have. And what does Barry Richards have to do with anything in this topic?

[z10]

The fact that potential and ability shown over a short space of time account for a lot more than you are giving credit to.

Granted, Hoggard is a better bowler through sheer numbers alone but the gap is not as big as you would have us believe.

[sehsan]

Name the geneuine controlling bowlers around at the moment that have a better average over 50 tests, and have been as good as Hoggard has in the last 12-18 months.

McGrath has, who else? I fear the cat will be getting your tongue soon.


have you forgot pollock?

[Cartman]

Pakistan's astounding tendency to churn out a star quick bowler when it looks like the talent well is dry and the recognized stalwarts are injured or over the hill is at it again.. Asif and Gul. Both have a point to prove and do it well. I think Sami should seriously seriously consider throwing in the towel or increase his efforts tenfold.

Right now Sami's only chance to make a comeback is

1. If Shoaib does not get fit soon and/or does not make a successful comeback.

2. Both Gul and Asif suffer career threatening injuries and go totally off color.

3. Pakistan are unable to find another decent pace bowler (which is highly unlilkely since we have at least half a dozen potential test candidates already)


I think its lookin bleak for Sami right now.

[Uzzy]

Its a shame you know. He has immense potential but he just needs to sort himself out. Just imagine if his potential was realised and we had Akhtar and Sami sending 90mph+ thunderbolts and destroying teams.

[Cartman]

Ok I did not mean to change the direction of this thread. It seems after my post people are going to start contemplating Sami's fate. My intention was just to compare the potential of the current new ball pairing. They both did extremely well and grabbed the chance with both hands..

[James]

have you forgot pollock?

Nope. Hoggard has been better than Pollock over last 2 years, well in tests anyway.

[Team Slayer]

Hoggy (as good as he has been in the past year or so) is an honest bowler of limited ability. He has done fantastically well to maximise that ability.

Asif seems to have a lot more natural ability than Hoggard. He doesn't have the numbers (yet), but you can't deny the abundance of natural ability in the lanky pacer. What makes him unique is not his control over line or length or his ability to jag the ball around wickedly...its that he combines all of the above with traditional Pakistani fast-bowling, e.g. he bowls swinging yorkers, he can reverse swing the ball as well as anyone, he can actually bowl at the death (something Hoggy and McGrath struggle to do). If given the proper oppurtunity and the right guidance, the guy will eclipse Hoggard in no time whatsoever.

[Reality786]

I would take the Pakistan attack easily over england.

England dosent have a spin bowler worth the spit on saqlains, or Danish's foot..


Pakistan aswell as a world class spinner have a devastating fast bowler that can destroy any team.


Then we have a choice between swingers like Naved and seamers like Mo Asif and Gul.




That is a all round attack.




Also I dont rate Jones at all

[James]

Natural talent is somethign Asif has in abudance, but he has to turn that into good test displays over the next few years to eclipse others. Then he can be one of Pakistan's best bowlers in a long time.

Hoggy isnt the most naturally talented but natural talent isn't everything in cricket. Work counts for a lot as well and Hoggy is probably the hardest worker in the team in terms of maximising what hes got available.

Like Boycott says: if you are a bowler Wisden count your wickets and your average, they don't count how you got the wickets or how much of a natural, nice bowler to watch you were.

[Slugger]

Name the geneuine controlling bowlers around at the moment that have a better average over 50 tests, and have been as good as Hoggard has in the last 12-18 months.

McGrath has, who else? I fear the cat will be getting your tongue soon.


Pollock stats
class mat balls runs wkts bbi bbm ave econ sr 4 5 10
Tests 97 22172 8764 385 7/87 10/147 22.76 2.37 57.58 20 16 1

Chaminda Vaas
class mat balls runs wkts bbi bbm ave econ sr 4 5 10
Tests 90 19588 8673 301 7/71 14/191 28.81 2.65 65.07 18 11 2

Shabbir Ahmed
class mat balls runs wkts bbi bbm ave econ sr 4 5 10
Tests 10 2576 1175 51 5/48 8/109 23.03 2.73 50.50 5 2 0

Andre Nel
class mat balls runs wkts bbi bbm ave econ sr 4 5 10
Tests 19 4214 2063 78 6/32 10/88 26.44 2.93 54.02 4 3 1

Stuart Clark
class mat balls runs wkts bbi bbm ave econ sr 4 5 10

:15:

[James]

Two of those bowlers havent played 50 tests, so they dont meet the requirements, and aren't better than Hoggard anyway.

The two that do, I feel relatively speaking Hoggard has been better than them over the last 12-18 months.

Anyway, why am I even bothering with you? Meaningless stats with no explained and constructive arguments whatsoever. Do you even watch cricket? There's more to cricket than stats you know. Conditions, match situations etc.

Hoggy has not let anyone down in the last few years, apart from the Pakistan series when he went against Afridi.

[amarmak]

Whippy i am a pakistani that only accepts facts and....

Jones
Flintoff
Harmi
Hoggard

Is better than

Shoaib
Asif
Rana
Gul

And i know in tyhe upcoming Pak series... england have the option of playing an all out seam attack which would be better than ours.

If only one of the bowler gets replaced by a spinner in both the teams then Pakistan has the advantage.

As of today england has the best lineup of fast bowlers in thw world... no question about it.

[Cartman]

I think its hard to say which combination is better than the other but I think it depends on a lot on the sort of conditions as well. English attack was successful at home but we know they all struggled in Pakistan where Pakistani bowlers thrived. So in that one on one contest I think Pakistani bowlers pipped English bowlers. Pakistani batting is weaker than England's so considering that it was an even bigger achievement.

Now lets see how Pakistani bowlers do in England.

Till then I cannot offer an opinion. But they are certainly different types of bowlers. Pakistan have an all out seam and swing attack whereas Harmison and Flintoff usually depend on a lot of bounce too. and when the pitches are dead, they can struggle as we found out in the Pakistan-England series.

[Uzzy]

I think its hard to say which combination is better than the other but I think it depends on a lot on the sort of conditions as well. English attack was successful at home but we know they all struggled in Pakistan where Pakistani bowlers thrived. So in that one on one contest I think Pakistani bowlers pipped English bowlers. Pakistani batting is weaker than England's so considering that it was an even bigger achievement.

Now lets see how Pakistani bowlers do in England.

Till then I cannot offer an opinion. But they are certainly different types of bowlers. Pakistan have an all out seam and swing attack whereas Harmison and Flintoff usually depend on a lot of bounce too. and when the pitches are dead, they can struggle as we found out in the Pakistan-England series.

Are you sure about that?

[Cartman]

Are you sure about that?


There is no doubt, no question in my mind.. I am absolutely positively, one hundred and 12 percent sure about that.

[Uzzy]

Explain your reasoning.

[Team Slayer]

on green seamers, england maybe better than pak (depending on the opposition though). in the sub-continent, pak a team bats better than the english team.

[Cartman]

I would say TS is quite correct there but its quite clear that our batting is weak compared to England in most of the international venues except onlyspin friendly surfaces in the sub-continent (mostly India)

English batting has trampled over the Aussies in the Ashes and constantly rack up good totals, their vulnerability to spin is also not as pronouncd anymore, they have learnt to play it quite well now. Pakistan's current batting lineup is shoddy and is only proven to be successful on batting friendly tracks in the sub-continent. The most recent case in Sri Lanka only proves my point.

[Slugger]

Two of those bowlers havent played 50 tests, so they dont meet the requirements, and aren't better than Hoggard anyway.

The two that do, I feel relatively speaking Hoggard has been better than them over the last 12-18 months.

Anyway, why am I even bothering with you? Meaningless stats with no explained and constructive arguments whatsoever. Do you even watch cricket? There's more to cricket than stats you know. Conditions, match situations etc.

Hoggy has not let anyone down in the last few years, apart from the Pakistan series when he went against Afridi.

ok buddy vaas and pollock are ten times better than your hoggard...why don't you go watch some mr. bean re-runs

the rest even if they haven't played 50 tests or more ARE better than Hoggard and the stats prove it...except the bowler who has played only one test...

sorry i don't come to write essays...the stats are facts...you don't wanna believe those then that's your problem...as far as conditions and wickets go...england has some of the most bowler friendly pitches in the world...end of story...

[Monsee]

McGrath and Hoggard are the best controlling Test bowlers out there at the moment, however this Asif seems to bowl well in every game. Very interesting to watch his progress, who knows what he could achieve?



McGrath at least has a rounded up career, BUT Hoggard right next to him as World's best controlling Test bowlers, come on...

Total BS...Hoggard who???

Yep, that World Class Bowler just ripped through Pakistani World's Strongets Batting Lineup in the last series...

filtered 3 110 407 11 3/50 5/165 37.00 3.70 60.0 0 0



WOW :21:

[lahori]

Has Asif ripped through Australia, India, SA, NZ, Windies, etc, and taken a test hat trick;

So? Shoaib doesn't have a hat-trick either. Sami has a hat-trick in both forms of cricket yet look at him.

[kablooee87]

I will be watching with keen interest, as a lot of others, whether or not he can maintain this sort of form. I don't think it is expected of him to blow through the order single handedly every match, but the sort of line and length bowling he has put on display combined with the ability to move the ball both ways is very impressive.

Often what happens is that a new bowler plays some dominating cricket but after a while he levels off as batsman around the world become fimiliar with him.

However, I am optimistic that Asif won't be one such bowler. He seems to bowl with great maturity, to go well with his supreme talent. One thing is for sure, Pakistan have yet another pace bowling gem on their hands and they need to be careful to not waste the talent. Proper coaching (that includes leaving him alone in some areas) is needed to assure his longevity.

[Tariq Jamshed]

The most wonderful thing about Asif is control - that quality which is so important yet not much talked about amongst fans sometimes.

Unfair to compare him with Hoggy or anybody else at this stage.

[Geordie Ahmed]

I would have Pakistani bowlers any day of the week, there is more variety and we have the bench strength - i mean Akhtar, Sami and Rana who were all starters not long ago are NOT playing - we have Asif and Gul who have had promising starts to their short career and we have the one thing England seriously lack, a quality spinner

Tho the England attack is fantastic and they are more experienced as a unit than ours, however they dont have the bench strength and its for that reason i would have our attack over theirs

[James]

It's pathetic, isn't it? Always going back to reputations of Vaas and Pollock; people trying to belittle Hoggard by always going back to the Pak series, conveniently ignoring all his other series over the last 2 years. And for the record, you CAN argue with stats. PPers are always doing it saying Wasim would have had a lower bowling average if his fielders had been better, does that not count as arguing with stats?

As for the Pak v Eng batting strength discussion, you could write an essay on that. I don't think there is much to seperate them right now. Both teams are usually good in their 1st innings but their 2nd innings can be very inconsistent. For now we can say Pakistan are better on the subcontinental wickets, and we will have to see who deal with English wickets better.

[Monsee]

He is at best a 'Helpfull Wicket or Conditions Bowler' otherwise he is no where in the league of McGrath or Pollock (Of a couple of years back)...

Hoggard's last 20 Test record looks quite nice BUT it also helps that he has gotten some 25 wickets in 4 Tests against WI and BD...a term 'Minnow beating bowler' comes to mind

[Officer Barbrady]

Hoggard is a decent bowler and does a job. That's about it and comparisons with Pollock of the past or Mcgrath are a bit over the top.

[Uzzy]

I think Whippy is getting a tad over excited or a knee jerk reaction after his performance in the tests against India.

[James]

He is at best a 'Helpfull Wicket or Conditions Bowler' otherwise he is no where in the league of McGrath or Pollock (Of a couple of years back)...

Hoggard's last 20 Test record looks quite nice BUT it also helps that he has gotten some 25 wickets in 4 Tests against WI and BD...a term 'Minnow beating bowler' comes to mind

Minnow beater that has run through Australia, India and Saffies among his last 20 tests? He took some wickets against the crap teams, but everyone does that, so I don't see why you should pick on Hoggard for simply doing his job. If he hadnt taken wickets in these games he would have been criticised regardless; he cant win it seems.

I also never compared Hoggard to Pollock of old, I compared him to Pollock of today if you remember. Hoggy is better at the moment and in terms of control bowlers, only McGrath is better AT THIS MOMENT (admittedly he is considerably better and has always been).

[UJ]

Anyways we were suppose to be talking about Asif not Hoggard.

I think there was already another thread for Hoggy