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View Full Version : In Britain, Bangladeshis have overtaken Pakistanis



Dios
22nd February 2015, 18:09
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21644155-britain-bangladeshis-have-overtaken-pakistanis-credit-poor-job-market-when-they-arrived


MOST parts of Britain are doing better than Bradford, a smokestack town in West Yorkshire that has struggled since the collapse of the wool industry. But one comparison stings. Fatima Patel, the editor of Asian Sunday, a local newspaper, says Bradford’s leaders look ruefully at Tower Hamlets, a poor borough of London 200 miles to the south. And that comparison has an ethnic tinge, because Bradford is heavily Pakistani, whereas Tower Hamlets is the heart of Bangladeshi Britain.

In many people’s minds, and often in official statistics, the 447,201 people who called themselves Bangladeshi in the 2011 census and the 1,124,511 who identified themselves as Pakistani are lumped together. And the two groups have much in common. Mass immigration for both began in the 1950s. Both are largely working-class and Muslim. Both tend to vote Labour (see Bagehot). Both are concentrated in one business—restaurants in the case of Bangladeshis, taxi-driving among Pakistanis. But their fortunes are now diverging. And that says something about what it takes to succeed as an immigrant in Britain.

Even during the half-term holiday, the library in Morpeth School in Tower Hamlets is busy with mostly Bangladeshi children. Around three-quarters of the school’s pupils are so poor that they qualify for free school meals. A similar share do not speak English as their first language. And yet, last year, 70% got five good GCSEs, the exams taken at 16—much higher than the national average.

Pakistani pupils do not fare too badly in school either, considering how poorly educated and badly off their parents tend to be. But Bangladeshis overtook them more than a decade ago and have pulled farther ahead since then (see chart 1). Some 61% of Bangladeshis got five good GCSEs in 2014 compared with 51% of Pakistanis and 56% of British whites.

That will help their job prospects. Both Bangladeshis and Pakistanis have low employment rates because so many women do not work. But among the young, Bangladeshis are more likely to be studying or in work. And Yaojun Li, a sociologist at the University of Manchester, calculates that Bangladeshis’ average monthly household income, though still low, is now slightly higher than that of Pakistanis.

Bangladeshis born in Britain are also more likely than their Pakistani counterparts to socialise with people of a different ethnicity, according to another study (see chart 2). Both still overwhelmingly wed within their own ethnic group. But among young men, for whom marrying out is easier, 26% of Bangladeshis now do so compared with 17% of Pakistani youths.

The explanations lie partly in the past. Pakistanis—many of them from the rural Mirpur Valley in Kashmir—began to settle thickly in Britain in the 1960s. They often took jobs in the textile mills of the north and the foundries of the West Midlands.

Most Bangladeshis came later. Many men arrived in the 1970s as refugees, but the peak of migration was in the early 1980s, when the women and children turned up. They thus arrived when British industry was on the ropes—which was oddly lucky, suggests Shamit Saggar of Essex University. Though many were working in the rag trade, they had not committed themselves to one doomed industry. Pakistanis had: they suffered greatly from the collapse of British textile-making.

Those early jobs also drew the two groups to different bits of England. Today half of all Britain’s Bangladeshis live in London, compared to one-fifth of Pakistanis. Bangladeshis do not just tend to live in Britain’s most successful city, they also live in a particularly vibrant bit of it: Tower Hamlets surrounds the booming office district of Canary Wharf. Schools in London have improved much more than schools elsewhere, partly because they get more government money but also because the best teachers want to work there.

Pakistanis in London also benefit from the city’s improved schools; they do better there than in the rest of England. But research by Simon Burgess of the University of Bristol shows that geography does not explain the whole difference. Bangladeshis did better than Pakistanis both in London and outside the city in 2013.

East End advantage

The growing success of Bangladeshis appears odd because their living conditions are often so dismal. More than one-third live in social housing, compared with a national average of 18%. Near Morpeth School, a fence outside grotty flats is topped with upturned nails to deter intruders. Pakistanis are more likely to own houses. But, since those houses are often in the wrong place, that has not helped them much. Those living in decayed northern towns are tied to properties whose value is hardly rising, stopping them moving to more dynamic spots. “It is a stake that only allows you to move around the corner to equally bleak economies,” says Mr Saggar.

Cultural conservatism, which has deepened among many British Pakistanis, makes things worse. Cousin marriage is more common among Pakistanis than among Bangladeshis, as is the bringing over of partners from the subcontinent, argues Parveen Akhtar, a sociologist at the University of Bradford. Nuzhat Ali, a campaigner in the city, reckons such marriages are actually more common among recent Pakistani migrants than among their grandparents. The practice means that more Pakistanis in a city like Bradford are first-generation migrants than might be expected by now. It might also mean that young men are less driven to succeed—the desire to find a marriage partner being an unstated reason for going to university among people of all races.

The experience of Bangladeshis suggests that it is foolish to judge the success of immigrants after just a few years in Britain. It also bodes well for Somalis. Today they are among Britain’s most desperate migrants. But they, too, have the fortune to be concentrated in London. In parts of the city their school results are already improving sharply. They are struggling now—but their future could be much brighter. And their ambition is surging. Amina Ali, a Somali councillor from Tower Hamlets, is even hoping to be elected as a Labour Party MP in Bradford.
I wonder what Cpt. Rishwat take on this is?

Dios
22nd February 2015, 18:14
In the US, Pakistani-American median household income is $61,000 against Bangadeshi-American median household income of $46,000. What's going wrong with UK Pakistani community?

CricketCartoons
22nd February 2015, 18:25
too long to read. Overtaken in what?

Dios
22nd February 2015, 18:28
too long to read. Overtaken in what?
All social indicators.

Gabbar Singh
22nd February 2015, 19:23
When I was younger my Grandmother used to tell me that Bangladeshis and Bengalis were intelligent because they eat a lot of fish lol. That's right up there with the 'eat almonds and you'll grow up to clever' line many would have heard from our parents.

Also, I'm sure Saj will be pleased to read that last paragraph which says things are looking up for the Somali community too. :)

Cpt. Rishwat
22nd February 2015, 19:35
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21644155-britain-bangladeshis-have-overtaken-pakistanis-credit-poor-job-market-when-they-arrived

[/B]
I wonder what Cpt. Rishwat take on this is?

I just skimmed the article, so not really sure what the central theme is. It seems to be comparing Bangladeshis favourably to Pakistanis, or more specifically Pakistanis from Mirpur. Bangladeshis are usually a bit more education oriented, Mirpuris are quite conservative traditionally. I guess Bangladeshis got the brains and Mirpuris got the looks. You can't have everything.

Cpt. Rishwat
22nd February 2015, 19:35
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21644155-britain-bangladeshis-have-overtaken-pakistanis-credit-poor-job-market-when-they-arrived

[/B]
I wonder what Cpt. Rishwat take on this is?

I just skimmed the article it is difficult to read with all that bolded text, so not really sure what the central theme is. It seems to be comparing Bangladeshis favourably to Pakistanis, or more specifically Pakistanis from Mirpur. Bangladeshis are usually a bit more education oriented, Mirpuris are quite conservative traditionally. I guess Bangladeshis got the brains and Mirpuris got the looks. You can't have everything.

sjahmed23
22nd February 2015, 19:53
That's how it is looking here in New York, with Bangladeshi taking over the city's main desi hubs. However, I feel Bangladeshi's prefer to live in ghettos more than Pakistanis and Indians who spread out and seek better opportunities.

TSA321
22nd February 2015, 20:44
The article states they've overtaken Pakistanis in GCSE attainment, which is true, but overall when it comes to poverty, home ownership, education level, unemployment etc they're still behind.

Bewal Express
22nd February 2015, 20:45
In a contradiction to the official figures,The BD unemployment is actually very low for men as many work in restaurants and also sign on whilst claiming benefits. I worked as a delivery driver thorough Uni for Bengalis and they all doing in the restaurant, which gave them 2 incomes.

CricketCartoons
22nd February 2015, 21:09
Bangladeshis have the advantage of having one language and culture, no punjabi, mirpuri, pathan divisions. That is why I am not a fan of multi culturalism. Uni culturalism is the way to go.

dirk diggler
22nd February 2015, 21:46
I was under the impression That mirpuris were able to and generally wished to identify themselves as Kashmiri on diversity sections of forms so why are they lumped with Pakistanis for this study?

Cpt. Rishwat
22nd February 2015, 21:55
I was under the impression That mirpuris were able to and generally wished to identify themselves as Kashmiri on diversity sections of forms so why are they lumped with Pakistanis for this study?

For ****-bashing purposes I guess. It does make things easier.

CricketCartoons
22nd February 2015, 22:09
I was under the impression That mirpuris were able to and generally wished to identify themselves as Kashmiri on diversity sections of forms so why are they lumped with Pakistanis for this study?

Till Kashmir doesn't become an independent nation, unfortunately mirpuris will be known as Pakistanis.

TSA321
22nd February 2015, 22:14
I was under the impression That mirpuris were able to and generally wished to identify themselves as Kashmiri on diversity sections of forms
They don't - vast majority of them identify as Pakistani. They were thinking of putting Kashmiri as a different option on the 2011 census but they decided not to because of that reason.

CricketCartoons
22nd February 2015, 22:31
I miss that video by mani1

Cpt. Rishwat
22nd February 2015, 22:49
I miss that video by mani1

That was a classic, in fact this whole forum is missing mani1 and his Mirpur Defence bookmarks. No one could have provided better insight on this topic IMO.

Slog
23rd February 2015, 00:32
In the US, Pakistani-American median household income is $61,000 against Bangadeshi-American median household income of $46,000. What's going wrong with UK Pakistani community?

in the US Pakstani American community is above the national average on every social and economic indicator so not fair to compare them to the UK counterparts

TSA321
23rd February 2015, 01:13
When I was younger my Grandmother used to tell me that Bangladeshis and Bengalis were intelligent because they eat a lot of fish lol. That's right up there with the 'eat almonds and you'll grow up to clever' line many would have heard from our parents.

Also, I'm sure Saj will be pleased to read that last paragraph which says things are looking up for the Somali community too. :)

Just curious, do most British Indians know the difference between the different British Pakistani communities like Mirpuris, North Punjabis, Central Punjabis, Pathans etc? Or do most of them think that we're one big community? I have a feeling the latter is true.

Laparwah
23rd February 2015, 01:15
That's weird! Just a few months back I read that more Pakistanis have enrolled in universities over the past few years then any other community from the subcontinent. Who do you trust?

TSA321
23rd February 2015, 01:18
That's weird! Just a few months back I read that more Pakistanis have enrolled in universities over the past few years then any other community from the subcontinent. Who do you trust?
Both Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have seen large increases, whereas Indians haven't. Probably because of their age structure. https://www.ucas.com/sites/default/files/eoc_data_resource_2014-dr2_024_05.pdf

Fallen King
23rd February 2015, 01:48
Till Kashmir doesn't become an independent nation, unfortunately mirpuris will be known as Pakistanis.

Unfortunately you got that right. Kashmir accepted Pakistan, but Pakistan is yet to accept Kashmir, not talking about state-wise. :afaq

Other days when people were talking about hosting Pakistani match in beautiful greenery Mirpur, a lot of Pakistani ppers objected and indicated why host Pakistani match is in Mirpur when it is not even part of Pakistan.

There was supposed to be main Airport in Mirpur, but due to competition in Islamabad, the project of building Airport in Mirpur remains unfulfilled. So much for brotherhood! :facepalm:

#phir bhi dil hai Pakistani :usman

Fallen King
23rd February 2015, 01:53
When I was younger my Grandmother used to tell me that Bangladeshis and Bengalis were intelligent because they eat a lot of fish lol. That's right up there with the 'eat almonds and you'll grow up to clever' line many would have heard from our parents.

Also, I'm sure Saj will be pleased to read that last paragraph which says things are looking up for the Somali community too. :)

Pakistan missed the great deal. Ever since 1971, Pakistan economy has been downhill. Pakistan is lacking the presence of intelligence origins, not to mention losing another economical-hub cities [from Bangladesh] doesn't help Pakistan at all. :afaq

Dios
23rd February 2015, 03:03
Just like the British-Pakistani community is predominantly Mirpuri, 90% of the Bangladeshi population in the UK is Sylheti. Also very conservative and ridiculed by other Bengalis for having bad taste. Probably explains why both communities are far behind their counterparts in the US where the populations are much more diverse and not dominated by any region in particular. While there is progress being made, the rate would be accelerated if the British Bangladeshi community sheds some of its conservative and narrow-minded practices and integrate better within British society. Encourage children to go out and pursue their ambitions instead of forcing them into the family business. Give them freedom to socialise and marry outside the community. And most importantly don't force their dogmatic religious beliefs onto their children. At the moment most Bengali youth I have come across are either the ghetto wannabe types or extremely religious. Hope this changes soon.

Cpt. Rishwat
23rd February 2015, 03:54
Just like the British-Pakistani community is predominantly Mirpuri, 90% of the Bangladeshi population in the UK is Sylheti. Also very conservative and ridiculed by other Bengalis for having bad taste. Probably explains why both communities are far behind their counterparts in the US where the populations are much more diverse and not dominated by any region in particular. While there is progress being made, the rate would be accelerated if the British Bangladeshi community sheds some of its conservative and narrow-minded practices and integrate better within British society. Encourage children to go out and pursue their ambitions instead of forcing them into the family business. Give them freedom to socialise and marry outside the community. And most importantly don't force their dogmatic religious beliefs onto their children. At the moment most Bengali youth I have come across are either the ghetto wannabe types or extremely religious. Hope this changes soon.

The British Pakistani community isn't predominantly Mirpuri, the study is concentrating on two cities, Bradford and London, basically dividing between north and south in a misleading manner. What about Leicester? Manchester? Birmingham? Newcastle? Edinburgh? Glasgow?

It is true though that the vast majority of Pakistanis in Britain hail from Kashmir and Punjab but then most Indian immigrants were also from Punjab at that time. These days there are far more Tamils, Ahmadis, Sinhalese etc, over here so where to start with the generalising?

Salma_T
23rd February 2015, 07:00
Good old MP bashing some things never change.

Let's hope changes occur and education is valued more. It is happening most of my younger relatives are at uni and doing well.

Also don't think many Mirpuris live in London do they as I always met Lahore/Karachi lot there.

saeedhk
23rd February 2015, 10:23
^Many many Mirpuris in Birmingham and Bradford but less so around London.

the Great Khan
23rd February 2015, 17:16
Just curious, do most British Indians know the difference between the different British Pakistani communities like Mirpuris, North Punjabis, Central Punjabis, Pathans etc? Or do most of them think that we're one big community? I have a feeling the latter is true.

one Indian memon friedn remarked to me "oh Imran Khan doesnt look like a pakistani?" also My wife got similar remarks "oh you dont look Pakistani"

Most Indians I meet are ignorant about Pakistanis and think we are all from Mirpur. Or look like them.

niishaa
23rd February 2015, 17:21
I heard about mirpuris only after coming to pakpassion and i never heard of them before. Most of the comments were negative.

Saeed
23rd February 2015, 17:52
Wikipedia says that about 70 percent British Pakistanis are Mirpuris citing some Kashmiri research project. If true then never knew it was that big.

Cpt. Rishwat
23rd February 2015, 17:59
I heard about mirpuris only after coming to pakpassion and i never heard of them before. Most of the comments were negative.

That's because online Pakistanis consider themselves well educated and therefore can look down on Mirpuris as a rough and ready lot. Not something they'd say to their faces mind, otherwise they might get a broken jaw.

niishaa
23rd February 2015, 18:04
That's because online Pakistanis consider themselves well educated and therefore can look down on Mirpuris as a rough and ready lot. Not something they'd say to their faces mind, otherwise they might get a broken jaw.

For once we are in agreement!

TSA321
23rd February 2015, 22:15
one Indian memon friedn remarked to me "oh Imran Khan doesnt look like a pakistani?" also My wife got similar remarks "oh you dont look Pakistani"

Most Indians I meet are ignorant about Pakistanis and think we are all from Mirpur. Or look like them.

Lol tbh it's not just Indians. Once I was speaking to my Bangladeshi (Sylheti) mate in uni and I said my dad speaks Punjabi and he said "Wait, are you Indian?!"
Another time I was speaking to this Tamil (Sri Lankan) and I said my parents are from Kenya and he said "Are you Hindu? I thought you were Muslim" He thought that only Hindu Asians come from Kenya.
Ignorance all round.

Eagle_Eye
23rd February 2015, 23:23
London is doing far better than the rest of the country. Its not an apt comparison. It should be agianst other boroughs in London. How about comparing Tower Halmets to Hounslow or Ealing which has a fair few Pakistanis.

As far as tower hamlets is concerned its regularly in local London news of for the wrong reasons, usually involving brazen corruption. Politics of the old country played out in the heart of the city.

TSA321
23rd February 2015, 23:33
As far as tower hamlets is concerned its regularly in local London news of for the wrong reasons, usually involving brazen corruption. Politics of the old country played out in the heart of the city.
Not to mention religious extremism. Just the other day 3 girls in the news for going to Syria.

yeh cheez
24th February 2015, 03:20
I was under the impression That mirpuris were able to and generally wished to identify themselves as Kashmiri on diversity sections of forms so why are they lumped with Pakistanis for this study?

Why would they wish to identify themselves as Kashmiri and not Pakistani?

Laal
24th February 2015, 04:10
There's hardly any intermingling between Mirpuris and other Pakistani communities in the US. Most of them also identify themselves as Kashmiris, rather than Pakistanis.

Theo_14
24th February 2015, 04:52
Bangladesh business are well because they have no shame or problem in selling alcohol.

Laal
24th February 2015, 05:17
There's hardly any intermingling between Mirpuris and other Pakistani communities in the US. Most of them also identify themselves as Kashmiris, rather than Pakistanis.

My apologies. This was meant for the other thread.

Salma_T
24th February 2015, 06:35
^Many many Mirpuris in Birmingham and Bradford but less so around London.

Yes I knoe about Birmingham and Bradford, Bradford also has a sizable Pathan community too.

Salma_T
24th February 2015, 06:38
one Indian memon friedn remarked to me "oh Imran Khan doesnt look like a pakistani?" also My wife got similar remarks "oh you dont look Pakistani"

Most Indians I meet are ignorant about Pakistanis and think we are all from Mirpur. Or look like them.
And what do they look like?

I am Mirpuri how should I look? As have been told I don't look pakistani aswell

Theo_14
24th February 2015, 17:56
I would never move to Bradford or Birmingham. Not a place to raise your family anymore... Also quality of education is very poor there.

imrankhannsu
24th February 2015, 18:20
Bangladesh business are well because they have no shame or problem in selling alcohol.

Have you heard the underground Mujras dancing organised by the Pakistani communty up North?....do you think the owners have any shame or problems with that?

Also it is not only Bangladeshi restaraunts that sell alcohol, but also Muslim owners from Turkey/Lebanon/Morocco all serve some form of alcohol.

Theo_14
24th February 2015, 18:51
Have you heard the underground Mujras dancing organised by the Pakistani communty up North?....do you think the owners have any shame or problems with that?

Also it is not only Bangladeshi restaraunts that sell alcohol, but also Muslim owners from Turkey/Lebanon/Morocco all serve some form of alcohol.

No I haven't because:

1. I don't live up North
2. The good company I have and things I associate with, I am unaware of such undergrounds which you have great knowledge of.

In regards to selling wine etc, I completely agree that many other people from Islamic countries sell such things. But if you were to draw comparisons, then Bangladesh tops the list. My post didn't say bangladesh "only" sell such things.

the Great Khan
24th February 2015, 21:46
And what do they look like?

I am Mirpuri how should I look? As have been told I don't look pakistani aswell

well let me clarify the friend thinks all people from mirpur look like gujratis. Which we know is bunkum. So in other words they find it odd that many many pakistanis dont look like them. They think all south asians just look like them.

Salma_T
25th February 2015, 01:08
well let me clarify the friend thinks all people from mirpur look like gujratis. Which we know is bunkum. So in other words they find it odd that many many pakistanis dont look like them. They think all south asians just look like them.

gujjartis????

the Great Khan
25th February 2015, 16:18
gujjartis????

yes, those who's parents came from Indian Gujrat or have Indian gujrati grandparents who settled in africa but then had to come to the UK. They are geenrally very ignorant of what Pakistanis look like and just assume we share all cultural values.

Salma_T
25th February 2015, 16:21
yes, those who's parents came from Indian Gujrat or have Indian gujrati grandparents who settled in africa but then had to come to the UK. They are geenrally very ignorant of what Pakistanis look like and just assume we share all cultural values.

I met many and they are diverse looking. I think most people are ignorant about other communities. I have always thought that pathans are really fair but that isn't necessarily true for all.

speed
25th February 2015, 18:17
I met many and they are diverse looking. I think most people are ignorant about other communities. I have always thought that pathans are really fair but that isn't necessarily true for all.

Depends on the tribe and region, yousfzais which are the biggest tribe are known for their beauty, other tribes not so much but overall if they live in the hills and mountains( the ghilzzais) they are generally fair skinned, than you have the khlijis which are part turk and part Pathans who are very fair.