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View Full Version : Gay ok, but Caste is still a taboo in modern Mumbai



Cpt. Rishwat
21st May 2015, 19:09
This mom seeks 'Iyer' groom for her gay son

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“Seeking 25-40, well placed, animal loving, vegetarian groom for my son 36, 5 11’ who works with an NGO caste no bar (though Iyer preferred)”.

It’s customary for Indian parents to place matrimonial advertisements in newspapers. However, what has taken everyone by surprise is that in this case, the mother is seeking a groom for her son.

The advertisement was placed in a Mumbai-based tabloid, Midday, by Padma Iyer, mother of Mumbai-based gay rights activist Harrish Iyer, out of “genuine concern” for her gay son’s future.

But praise for Ms. Iyer’s efforts at seeking a groom for her homosexual son almost got diluted by her reference to the caste preference “Iyer.” This led to a dual response to the ad, with many congratulating the mother-son duo for their “bold move” to advertise his sexuality, but others criticis-ing them for refusing to leave out the caste preference.

Mr. Iyer said the reference to caste was not discriminatory and was done in “jest”, to sound “typical.” Those outraged by the caste reference are “missing the bigger point”, he told The Hindu.

“I did not reject any caste or religion. It says ‘caste no bar.’ Open up any paper in the morning and read the matrimonial ads, you see references to gotras, fair skin and such things. It’s almost like a market. But you never see anyone protest against such ads? Why get outraged because a gay man does it?” he asked.

Even if the reference to caste was done in a serious tone, he said, it would not make his mother casteist as she only stated her preference of getting her son married with someone of a similar background but did not reject any category. “We are not angels. We have the same set of prejudices,” he said. “The IYER PREF was meant to be a tease. Though I should admit that it is typical that mothers wish their children should be married to families whose culture we know of,” Ms. Iyer posted on Facebook.

“Mothers of gay people are not saints; they can have their prejudices like most mothers and most humans would. I am not bothered about the caste or religion of his partner per se. It would be nice if he makes his choice soon, given that he has a huge list of things that he will not tolerate in his partner,” she said.

Known for his activism on the rights of the LGBT community, Mr. Iyer has featured on actor Aamir Khan’s television show Satyamev Jayate in an episode on child sexual abuse. He said he had no preferences except that the groom should be “veg” and “an animal lover.”

Mr. Iyer’s initial attempts at getting the ad published failed. While two major English dailies did not approve his application at the last moment citing “legal issues,” the third rejected it outright with a written note. This has angered him.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/mumbai/matrimonial-ad-seeking-groom-for-gay-son/article7228662.ece

Mumbai is quite a contradiction. In some ways it is admirably modern in that it has embraced the booming gay scene as Indian men are confidently embracing their heartfelt nature, yet caste and religious discrimination seem if anything more entrenched than ever. It truly is a clash of civilisations and offers a fascinating glimpse into how the modern world meets the old.

This is the same city where Hindus won't sell or rent property to non-Hindus no matter what their celebrity status. Yet it is also the city which has given us the glitz and glamour of Bollywood. But of course some of those Bollywood stars can't buy a house in a certain locality because they are the wrong religion. Old meets New indeed.

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 19:13
This is what I have been saying all the time. It is easy to be secular, and gay supporter. But very difficult to get over caste mentality.

JaDed
21st May 2015, 19:17
This is what I have been saying all the time. It is easy to be secular, and gay supporter. But very difficult to get over caste mentality.

I know people where its the opposite most from my college.

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 19:24
I know people where its the opposite most from my college.

Most likely RSS supporters, who are against casteism for political reasons.

JaDed
21st May 2015, 19:27
Most likely RSS supporters, who are against casteism for political reasons.

Lol nope and if RSS is against Casteism i don't see why there is an issue in it even Ambedkar has praised it.

Nikhil_cric
21st May 2015, 19:29
I know people where its the opposite most from my college.

Yeah this is usually the case. Its harder to find people who are supportive of gay rights etc.

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 20:34
This is something I do not see anything wrong with..how is that any different from saying...hindi speaker preferred...or a delhi guy prefered.... he prefers an iyer husband because probably do not want any cultural clash in his marriage...which is a personally opinion !

Mountain out of a mole hill IMO

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 20:38
This is something I do not see anything wrong with..how is that any different from saying...hindi speaker preferred...or a delhi guy prefered.... he prefers an iyer husband because probably do not want any cultural clash in his marriage...which is a personally opinion !

Mountain out of a mole hill IMO

Typical casteist apologist.

Linguistic and regional identity is horizontal. But caste identity is vertical. Only a casteist person can see them as same.

Lurker_Ind
21st May 2015, 20:40
Caste no bar, but Iyer preferred. I see no problem with that.

If the other gay dude is also a Iyer, most probably he will be veggie too.

Making big deal out of a nothing news.

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 20:43
Typical casteist apologist.

Linguistic and regional identity is horizontal. But caste identity is vertical. Only a casteist person can see them as same.

It is vertical ...if you want to make it one in your head ! It could be vertical in POV of the govt where they see some developed over the others. But on a personal level..it is your choice to make it vertical or horizontal.

Obviously , it is a plus if a person has no qualms about the differences in caste, region or religion..great job being open minded....but if somebody does have a specific choice..it is alright !

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 20:52
It is vertical ...if you want to make it one in your head ! It could be vertical in POV of the govt where they see some developed over the others. But on a personal level..it is your choice to make it vertical or horizontal.

Obviously , it is a plus if a person has no qualms about the differences in caste, region or religion..great job being open minded....but if somebody does have a specific choice..it is alright !

Wow. This is Rahul Gandhi logic. Casteism is all in the mind!

Caste is a vertical stratification. Nothing horizontal about it (like clans and tribes).

This casteist apologist keeps giving.

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 20:56
^ Ok ! My last try...

I can prefer to marry with in my caste...but not discriminate other caste or looked down upon !

you can be idealistic and totally denounce caste and not think of culture that it brings! ...but in a reality..working with in the system..caste comes with lot of practices and culture ...so if a person prefers to be from the same background as his partner....I see absolutely no problem with it !

I do not think I can be more clear than that...

Cpt. Rishwat
21st May 2015, 21:07
This is what I have been saying all the time. It is easy to be secular, and gay supporter. But very difficult to get over caste mentality.

Do you think this is silently reflected in Bollywood too? In a lot of the films I've seen there are lots of camp, gay figures, in fact transvestites are quite common in Indian flicks. Yet inter-caste or inter-religious relationships don't seem to feature much despite there being obvious tensions around the subject.

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:09
Do you think this is silently reflected in Bollywood too? In a lot of the films I've seen there are lots of camp, gay figures, in fact transvestites are quite common in Indian flicks. Yet inter-caste or inter-religious relationships don't seem to feature much despite there being obvious tensions around the subject.

One more Bollywood opinion opinion of yours with no real knowledge like you made in Bollywood and vice thread !

Inter Religious marriages and conflicts were main plot points or sub plot points in Bollywood much much before it was a norm in actual society !

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 21:09
^ Ok ! My last try...

I can prefer to marry with in my caste...but not discriminate other caste or looked down upon !

you can be idealistic and totally denounce caste and not think of culture that it brings! ...but in a reality..working with in the system..caste comes with lot of practices and culture ...so if a person prefers to be from the same background as his partner....I see absolutely no problem with it !

I do not think I can be more clear than that...

You can prefer to marry a dog, and say that i dont discriminate against humans, but dogs are my first preference. When you prefer, you automatically discriminate. Non discrimination means you see everyone as equals, something your caste ridden mind cannot see.

Typical apologist arguments. What is Iyer culture, which is so different from other tamils?

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 21:11
One more Bollywood opinion opinion of yours with no real knowledge like you made in Bollywood and vice thread !

Inter Religious marriages and conflicts were main plot points or sub plot points in Bollywood much much before it was a norm in actual society !

How many movies have shown an upper caste girl marrying a dalit?

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:13
You can prefer to marry a dog, and say that i dont discriminate against humans, but dogs are my first preference. When you prefer, you automatically discriminate. Non discrimination means you see everyone as equals, something your caste ridden mind cannot see.

Typical apologist arguments. What is Iyer culture, which is so different from other tamils?

Rhetorical arguements ! Debating for debating sake ! If you find any co-relation between what I said and your dog analogy...there is no point !

I would refraid from making every single arguement personal...either calling me casteist..or elitist or whatever ....how hard is it to stick to the topic !

Neferpitou
21st May 2015, 21:13
That's some progress, right Captain?

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 21:13
Do you think this is silently reflected in Bollywood too? In a lot of the films I've seen there are lots of camp, gay figures, in fact transvestites are quite common in Indian flicks. Yet inter-caste or inter-religious relationships don't seem to feature much despite there being obvious tensions around the subject.

Bollywood movies will show inter religious marriages, and marriage between a punjabi and a tamil. But upper caste and dalit marriages are rare. In fact dalit characters themselves are rare in bollywood movies.

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:15
How many movies have shown an upper caste girl marrying a dalit?

how is that different from a movie where a upper caste guy marries a dalit lady?

Cpt. Rishwat
21st May 2015, 21:15
How many movies have shown an upper caste girl marrying a dalit?

That is what I was wondering. I can't recall any, although no doubt someone will point to some obscure arthouse film which no one has heard of before.

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 21:16
Rhetorical arguements ! Debating for debating sake ! If you find any co-relation between what I said and your dog analogy...there is no point !

I would refraid from making every single arguement personal...either calling me casteist..or elitist or whatever ....how hard is it to stick to the topic !

I thought I can't be more clear. You said that showing a preference is not discrimination. I states that preference itself means discrimination. How hard is it to understand?

I dont enjoy calling you a casteist, I thought you were a liberal. But this is how you are coming across.

Cpt. Rishwat
21st May 2015, 21:16
how is that different from a movie where a upper caste guy marries a dalit lady?

Are you really that naive or just pretending to be?

Lurker_Ind
21st May 2015, 21:16
Bollywood movies will show inter religious marriages, and marriage between a punjabi and a tamil. But upper caste and dalit marriages are rare. In fact dalit characters themselves are rare in bollywood movies.

Any Dalit person or actor that fits the looks of a Bollywood hero?

Bollywood only promotes people with certain look. Only Upper caste people possess those looks.

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 21:17
how is that different from a movie where a upper caste guy marries a dalit lady?

You can give examples for that too. I will explain the difference later.

So bring me bollywood movies where the upper caste guy marries a dalit girl.

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:17
That is what I was wondering. I can't recall any, although no doubt someone will point to some obscure arthouse film which no one has heard of before.

Really if that is what you were wondering why didn't you word like that? you said inter religious movies are not common..

on top of my head I can name few mainstream films with out even researching ..let me know how any of these are arthouse ! I am sure there 10's more...

Bobby

Bombay

Ishaqzaade

Ranjhanna

Lurker_Ind
21st May 2015, 21:20
I thought I can't be more clear. You said that showing a preference is not discrimination. I states that preference itself means discrimination. How hard is it to understand?

I dont enjoy calling you a casteist, I thought you were a liberal. But this is how you are coming across.

Everybody has preferences.

I have seen white girls preferring only white guys or black guys. I have seen Chinese and Korean women preferring only white guys.

Just because you have a preference does not mean discrimination.

The OP clearly mentions caste no bar, but Iyer preferred..

If the Parents of the gay boy outright said that they only want Iyer groom, then you have a point. They also have mentioned caste no bar in it.

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 21:22
Really if that is what you were wondering why didn't you word like that? you said inter religious movies are not common..

on top of my head I can name few mainstream films with out even researching ..let me know how any of these are arthouse ! I am sure there 10's more...

Bobby

Bombay

Ishaqzaade

Ranjhanna

Dude. We asked for upper caste and lower caste marriages, not hindu muslim marriages.

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:23
^^ Captain said inter-religious in his initial post !

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 21:25
Even the movie Gangs of Wasseypur, which was supposedly secular (showed hindus and muslims collaborating to kill another muslim), had this casteist line against the qureshi butcher caste: Jaise Qureshi bakri rakhte hain, hum pathan Qureshiyon ko rakhte hain.

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 21:26
^^ Captain said inter-religious in his initial post !

Inter caste and inter religious. But you chose to overlook the inter caste. I wonder why.

Lurker_Ind
21st May 2015, 21:27
^ Pathan and Qureshi are caste?

Muslims do not have caste.

Cpt. Rishwat
21st May 2015, 21:29
^^ Captain said inter-religious in his initial post !

I asked for both inter-religious and inter-caste actually. But even inter-religious films are heavily skewed so the male is Hindu and the female Muslim/Christian. The reasons why this is so would probably fill a psychology journal and is steeped in patriarchal society which is still entrenched in modern India.

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:33
Inter caste and inter religious. But you chose to overlook the inter caste. I wonder why.

Because I am caste fanatic and descriminate people on caste ! Lol..

those movies came to me..and I posted...

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:35
And it is quite funny the onus is on bollywood to eradicate the evils in the society...it already made inter religious more acceptable..atleast had a part in it...now making gays okay step by step....how is 50 yr old industry anyway responsible for 1000's of years of caste system.

Cpt. Rishwat
21st May 2015, 21:37
And it is quite funny the onus is on bollywood to eradicate the evils in the society...it already made inter religious more acceptable..atleast had a part in it...now making gays okay step by step....how is 50 yr old industry anyway responsible for 1000's of years of caste system.

No one is saying Bollywood is responsible for eliminating age old prejudices, merely that these are still present even if the medium which is the most progressive medium in India. That too, to quite a shocking extent.

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:40
I asked for both inter-religious and inter-caste actually. But even inter-religious films are heavily skewed so the male is Hindu and the female Muslim/Christian. The reasons why this is so would probably fill a psychology journal and is steeped in patriarchal society which is still entrenched in modern India.

Pk -- Brahmani Anushka falls in love with a pakistani Muslim and it is highest collected movie in bollywood !

Pinjar -- Hindu urmila loves a muslim guy

Jodha akbar --a hindu rajput loves a muslim akbar

My name is khan -- A muslim shahrukh khan falls in love with a hindu mandira played by kajol

Ishqiya -- a hindu vidya balan loves a muslim naseerudhin shah

Total siyappa -- a hindu yami gautam falls in love with a muslim ali zafar

all these in last couple of yrs..and all mainstraim !

Lurker_Ind
21st May 2015, 21:43
Pk -- Brahmani Anushka falls in love with a pakistani Muslim and it is highest collected movie in bollywood !

Pinjar -- Hindu urmila loves a muslim guy

Jodha akbar --a hindu rajput loves a muslim akbar

My name is khan -- A muslim shahrukh khan falls in love with a hindu mandira played by kajol

Ishqiya -- a hindu vidya balan loves a muslim naseerudhin shah

Total siyappa -- a hindu yami gautam falls in love with a muslim ali zafar

all these in last couple of yrs..and all mainstraim !

What some posters are saying in this thread is, you are only showing movies about Hindus and Muslims.

I think Cartoons guy is asking about Upper Caste and Dalit.

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:43
No one is saying Bollywood is responsible for eliminating age old prejudices, merely that these are still present even if the medium which is the most progressive medium in India. That too, to quite a shocking extent.

how is it present in it? there are movies which dealt with inter religion , sexual orientation, inter countries...so if it did not deal with a certain topic..does not mean it is not present in it ! I can actually remember quite a few Indian films which dealt with inter caste...cannot remember bollywood ones...but I am sure there are !

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:43
What some posters are saying in this thread is, you are only showing movies about Hindus and Muslims.

I think Cartoons guy is asking about Upper Caste and Dalit.

It was a reply to the guy who said ...why the male is always a hindu..and female a non hindu !

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 21:46
^ Pathan and Qureshi are caste?

Muslims do not have caste.

Go to a muslim family in india and ask which castes they marry into. When I was at my friend's place, who says he is a pathan (he is quite handsome) and when I told his mom about my inter caste marriage plans, to show empathy she said that we are pathans and we only marry with mirzas, mughals (one more which I forgot). Not ansari's and other castes.

Cpt. Rishwat
21st May 2015, 21:49
Pk -- Brahmani Anushka falls in love with a pakistani Muslim and it is highest collected movie in bollywood !

Pinjar -- Hindu urmila loves a muslim guy

Jodha akbar --a hindu rajput loves a muslim akbar

My name is khan -- A muslim shahrukh khan falls in love with a hindu mandira played by kajol

Ishqiya -- a hindu vidya balan loves a muslim naseerudhin shah

Total siyappa -- a hindu yami gautam falls in love with a muslim ali zafar

all these in last couple of yrs..and all mainstraim !

Only heard of two of those films, Piku which I haven't seen, but the Muslim guy is a simpleton based on Forest Gump like character I believe.

The other one is My Name is Khan which was about two Indian ex-pats who live in America and is focused on US discrimination against Muslims, it doesn't really deal with discrimination in India itself.

CricketCartoons
21st May 2015, 21:49
And it is quite funny the onus is on bollywood to eradicate the evils in the society...it already made inter religious more acceptable..atleast had a part in it...now making gays okay step by step....how is 50 yr old industry anyway responsible for 1000's of years of caste system.

You find it funny? Hope this statement form a progressive director can make you see the light.


Filmmaker Tanuja Chandra, who made an important film Sangharsh on rape, feels cinema must take the blame for the way the country looks at women, saying, “Art cannot really change society. But it plays a role in forming opinions, attitudes and perceptions.Even if films are just a reflection of society they must question the prevalent perceptions in society.Entertainment can’t function in a vacuum.

Lurker_Ind
21st May 2015, 21:51
Go to a muslim family in india and ask which castes they marry into. When I was at my friend's place, who says he is a pathan (he is quite handsome) and when I told his mom about my inter caste marriage plans, to show empathy she said that we are pathans and we only marry with mirzas, mughals (one more which I forgot). Not ansari's and other castes.

I do not know much about Muslim marriages as I have never attended one. Is this typical to India or is it same in Bangladesh and Pakistan too?

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:52
One movie I was thinking about in telugu on caste..has a hindi version

the movie sujata -- bimal roy movie in which a hindu man loves a untouchable women

I actually can remember a lot of telugu movies in 70's and 80s which was lot on inter caste...I do not have that much knowledge on hindi movies of that time ...

I believe inter caste movies were huge then...we slipped into making inter religious later on...

IgnitedMind
21st May 2015, 21:58
You find it funny? Hope this statement form a progressive director can make you see the light.

Rape was trivialized badly in the bollywood movies of the 80s and 90s ! It is sick what the film industry did...

I do not believe rape happens because of bollywood....but bollywood did de-sentisize such a huge issue on multiple levels...it is by far the worst thing that bollywood has contributed to India !

It was done on multiple levels

1. by associating loss of dignity to the victim -- now that is prevelent in the society...but it was exploited badly as a conflict in lot of movies

2. by associating family honor to the victim's family

all of these actually comes from out pathetic notion of associating sex life or virgnity with dignity...which I will actually trace back to Ramayana ....

JaDed
21st May 2015, 22:12
Bollywood initially made all movies to show casteism in bad light, Bimal Roy's Sujatha a hit during its times is a classic example.Bollywood started out with great directors like Bimal Roy,Guru Dutt,Mehboob Khan its just that it got destructed along the way.Lot of Indian movies btw show the rich girl marrying a poor person not really sure why is caste coming here but in anycase heropanti had caste bias as well where a Jaat girl runs away with someone ,mediocre movie interms of story.

JaDed
21st May 2015, 22:14
The Thakur girls marrying someone outta caste a common thing in 80's movies.

SamNJ
21st May 2015, 22:35
I doubt that's true. Gay is the biggest taboo. If you marry someone out of caste your parents will accept you after a few years. For gays there is hardly any hope of being accepted by parents.
N Srinivasan ICC chief's son is gay. He has thrown him out of his house and adopted Dhoni.