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Wasim_Waqar
4th August 2018, 16:27
What do people of the following regions want:-

- Kashmir valley
- Chenab valley (eg Doda, Bhaderwah)

Do they want an independent state or to join Pakistan?

Madplayer shaaik

Adijazz1706
4th August 2018, 18:33
Would prefer independence alongwith GB and Azad Kashmir, if they decide to stay then we'll probably join Pakistan

Wasim_Waqar
4th August 2018, 18:37
Would prefer independence alongwith GB and Azad Kashmir, if they decide to stay then we'll probably join Pakistan

GB and Azad Kashmir want to stay with Pakistan, so it would be great to have the Kashmir valley on board 😊

The only area that has a strong independence contigent is Kashmir valley. Doesnít exist in GB and Azad Kashmir.

Mrhandsome
4th August 2018, 20:22
I'm from Kashmir valley and I want us to join Pakistan.

Pakistanian
4th August 2018, 20:38
GB and Azad Kashmir want to stay with Pakistan, so it would be great to have the Kashmir valley on board ��

The only area that has a strong independence contigent is Kashmir valley. Doesnít exist in GB and Azad Kashmir.

A significant minority of people in Azad Kashmir have an identity crisis and do support independence even though they relate more to ethnic kin in Abbotabad and Rawalpindi than to Kashmiris in the valley.

Loralai
4th August 2018, 20:43
My experience of people in GB is that they have no interest in separating from Pakistan in any capacity.In fact they would rather strive for their own province in Pakistan. I can't speak for Azad Kashmir as I haven't spent any great deal of time there talking to the local people.

blackanhyellow
4th August 2018, 20:57
A significant minority of people in Azad Kashmir have an identity crisis and do support independence even though they relate more to ethnic kin in Abbotabad and Rawalpindi than to Kashmiris in the valley.

Those kinds of people are everywhere.

There are some Californians that want to separate from the United States.

However the overwhelming majority of people from Azad and GB are not seeking independence.

Pak army does not have to put hundreds of thousands of troops in the area like our neighbors do.

blackanhyellow
4th August 2018, 21:01
My experience of people in GB is that they have no interest in separating from Pakistan in any capacity.In fact they would rather strive for their own province in Pakistan. I can't speak for Azad Kashmir as I haven't spent any great deal of time there talking to the local people.

There has been a push from GB to get their own province actually.

They demanded so quite recently.

However it puts Pakistan in a pickle, as making GB a province hampers Pakistan's case for IOK. This is the only reason why GB hasnt been made an official province. They are quite unhappy about this too.

Pakistanian
4th August 2018, 21:01
Those kinds of people are everywhere.

There are some Californians that want to separate from the United States.

However the overwhelming majority of people from Azad and GB are not seeking independence.

Pak army does not have to put hundreds of thousands of troops in the area like our neighbors do.

Yeah i know, they don't have an.armed struggle or want independence on a large-scale. I'm just talking about the confused expats from AjK that have an identity crisis.

Wasim_Waqar
4th August 2018, 21:05
Yeah i know, they don't have an.armed struggle or want independence on a large-scale. I'm just talking about the confused expats from AjK that have an identity crisis.

Educated friends of mine in Rawalakoy say the pro independence number is no more than 10 percent.

Wasim_Waqar
4th August 2018, 21:35
Yeah i know, they don't have an.armed struggle or want independence on a large-scale. I'm just talking about the confused expats from AjK that have an identity crisis.

Iím from Azad Kashmir. Most of these clowns I know of are on the payroll of the enemies of Pakistan and Kashmir valley.

Madplayer
4th August 2018, 21:40
1) We should accept whatever the majority decides whether it is joining Pakistan , India or getting independence.

2) Personally I think Kashmir would be better served by joining Pakistan for a multitude of socio-political reasons. But thats my opinion.

3) Understanding the dynamic is crucial here. First of all the majority dont want to be with India. I know my word doesnt mean much here but you can take my word for it.

The question of joining Pakistan or staying independent comes next. Here the tricky part comes to the surface. Historically the idea of independence was negligible. Kashmiris by and large didnt see any option other than joining Pakistan. However, due to the turbulance in Pakistan, terrorist attacks, foreign policies, economic decline etc. Since early to mid 2000s the idea of independence gained pace. One crucial factor was Nawaz sharief's decisions in Kargil war which did massive damage to the trust which Kashmiris had on Pakistan. The propaganda launched by India against Pakistan through media (you have no idea how much they have invested in it in Kashmir) has also caused the average person to grow circumspect of Pakistan. The ones who want independence belong to the younger generation with unrealistic expectations from an independent Kashmir like it will become a Singapore type economic powerhouse.

Currently, its hard to say how many people want independence but from my personal interactions with people, more people that i know want Kashmir to join Pakistan. However many people keep forgetting that the plebiscite, when it takes place will take place in all of J&K including AJK and Gilgit Baltistan. There is simply no way that there can be any other outcome other than IOK joining Pakistan should a plebiscite take place.

Wasim_Waqar
4th August 2018, 21:45
1) We should accept whatever the majority decides whether it is joining Pakistan , India or getting independence.

2) Personally I think Kashmir would be better served by joining Pakistan for a multitude of socio-political reasons. But thats my opinion.

3) Understanding the dynamic is crucial here. First of all the majority dont want to be with India. I know my word doesnt mean much here but you can take my word for it.

The question of joining Pakistan or staying independent comes next. Here the tricky part comes to the surface. Historically the idea of independence was negligible. Kashmiris by and large didnt see any option other than joining Pakistan. However, due to the turbulance in Pakistan, terrorist attacks, foreign policies, economic decline etc. Since early to mid 2000s the idea of independence gained pace. One crucial factor was Nawaz sharief's decisions in Kargil war which did massive damage to the trust which Kashmiris had on Pakistan. The propaganda launched by India against Pakistan through media (you have no idea how much they have invested in it in Kashmir) has also caused the average person to grow circumspect of Pakistan. The ones who want independence belong to the younger generation with unrealistic expectations from an independent Kashmir like it will become a Singapore type economic powerhouse.

Currently, its hard to say how many people want independence but from my personal interactions with people, more people that i know want Kashmir to join Pakistan. However many people keep forgetting that the plebiscite, when it takes place will take place in all of J&K including AJK and Gilgit Baltistan. There is simply no way that there can be any other outcome other than IOK joining Pakistan should a plebiscite take place.

Thanks for the detailed analysis. Itís the view I have too

Wasim_Waqar
4th August 2018, 21:50
Madplayer the plebiscite has 2 options. The Kashmiri nationalists seem to fail to understand this AND don’t want for a third option

DeadBall
4th August 2018, 22:34
Stay on topic guys.

Wasim_Waqar
4th August 2018, 23:15
Madplayer the brainwashed pro independence people in valley don’t understand how happy people are in Azad Kashmir.

Justcrazy
4th August 2018, 23:21
There should be free vote what people want to do, and both countries abide by the result.

Greenstorm
4th August 2018, 23:23
1) We should accept whatever the majority decides whether it is joining Pakistan , India or getting independence.

2) Personally I think Kashmir would be better served by joining Pakistan for a multitude of socio-political reasons. But thats my opinion.

3) Understanding the dynamic is crucial here. First of all the majority dont want to be with India. I know my word doesnt mean much here but you can take my word for it.

The question of joining Pakistan or staying independent comes next. Here the tricky part comes to the surface. Historically the idea of independence was negligible. Kashmiris by and large didnt see any option other than joining Pakistan. However, due to the turbulance in Pakistan, terrorist attacks, foreign policies, economic decline etc. Since early to mid 2000s the idea of independence gained pace. One crucial factor was Nawaz sharief's decisions in Kargil war which did massive damage to the trust which Kashmiris had on Pakistan. The propaganda launched by India against Pakistan through media (you have no idea how much they have invested in it in Kashmir) has also caused the average person to grow circumspect of Pakistan. The ones who want independence belong to the younger generation with unrealistic expectations from an independent Kashmir like it will become a Singapore type economic powerhouse.

Currently, its hard to say how many people want independence but from my personal interactions with people, more people that i know want Kashmir to join Pakistan. However many people keep forgetting that the plebiscite, when it takes place will take place in all of J&K including AJK and Gilgit Baltistan. There is simply no way that there can be any other outcome other than IOK joining Pakistan should a plebiscite take place.

India agencies since decades have tried to create distrust between people of Azad Kashmir and Pakistan but have failed to achieve their objective so far.

Pakistanian
4th August 2018, 23:32
India agencies since decades have tried to create distrust between people of Azad Kashmir and Pakistan but have failed to achieve their objective so far.

He's from IoK

Greenstorm
4th August 2018, 23:54
He's from IoK

I know.

Wasim_Waqar
5th August 2018, 17:16
Madplayer removal of article 35A- would this accelerate Kashmir valley becoming Pakistan?

Mamoon
5th August 2018, 20:01
IOK will never gain independence or become part of Pakistan. However, if a miracle happens and they become part of Pakistan, it will backfire badly for Pakistan.

They will create problems for Pakistan and will not let us live in peace. The factions within IOK that donít want to join Pakistan will play the victim card at the first opportunity.

We have managed to keep a lid on Pashtun and Baloch liberalization so far, and we cannot afford to open another front with a group of people that donít belong to Pakistan.

Fighting a war that was never Pakistanís, and fighting for people that never belonged to us has done no good for this country.

We have gained nothing from fighting for the people of IOK, and it has been a huge burden on our economy. We need to draw our forces and stop funding insurgencies - IOK is not our problem and they need to be left to their own devices.

However, that will never happen as long as the military calls the shots in Pakistan. Cordial relations with India is against their interests, since it will dampen their authority and control within Pakistan.

They control our foreign policy and as long as we are at loggerheads with India and Afghanistan, they will hold more power than the civil government, and the Defense Minister (usually retired generals) and the Foreign Minister will remain the biggest puppets in the country.

Wasim_Waqar
5th August 2018, 21:48
IOK will never gain independence or become part of Pakistan. However, if a miracle happens and they become part of Pakistan, it will backfire badly for Pakistan.

They will create problems for Pakistan and will not let us live in peace. The factions within IOK that donít want to join Pakistan will play the victim card at the first opportunity.

We have managed to keep a lid on Pashtun and Baloch liberalization so far, and we cannot afford to open another front with a group of people that donít belong to Pakistan.

Fighting a war that was never Pakistanís, and fighting for people that never belonged to us has done no good for this country.

We have gained nothing from fighting for the people of IOK, and it has been a huge burden on our economy. We need to draw our forces and stop funding insurgencies - IOK is not our problem and they need to be left to their own devices.

However, that will never happen as long as the military calls the shots in Pakistan. Cordial relations with India is against their interests, since it will dampen their authority and control within Pakistan.

They control our foreign policy and as long as we are at loggerheads with India and Afghanistan, they will hold more power than the civil government, and the Defense Minister (usually retired generals) and the Foreign Minister will remain the biggest puppets in the country.

Mamoon I simply disagree. Listen to my point: in Azad Kashmir we love Pakistan and long for Kashmir valley to become Pakistan as do many in the valley.

Is it that difficult to understand? That people in Kashmir valley are wanting to become part of Pakistan?

Slog
6th August 2018, 00:35
My experience of people in GB is that they have no interest in separating from Pakistan in any capacity.In fact they would rather strive for their own province in Pakistan. I can't speak for Azad Kashmir as I haven't spent any great deal of time there talking to the local people.
My experience is similar if not even more stronger.

The people from GB I met were ****** at Pakistan because Pakistan doesn't recognise them as part of Pakistan and give them provincial status

UN talkz
6th August 2018, 00:45
INDEPENDENCE
Ghulami se behtar hai Azaadi ke mout

pkckt
6th August 2018, 00:53
IOK will never gain independence or become part of Pakistan. However, if a miracle happens and they become part of Pakistan, it will backfire badly for Pakistan.

They will create problems for Pakistan and will not let us live in peace. The factions within IOK that don’t want to join Pakistan will play the victim card at the first opportunity.

We have managed to keep a lid on Pashtun and Baloch liberalization so far, and we cannot afford to open another front with a group of people that don’t belong to Pakistan.

Fighting a war that was never Pakistan’s, and fighting for people that never belonged to us has done no good for this country.

We have gained nothing from fighting for the people of IOK, and it has been a huge burden on our economy. We need to draw our forces and stop funding insurgencies - IOK is not our problem and they need to be left to their own devices.

However, that will never happen as long as the military calls the shots in Pakistan. Cordial relations with India is against their interests, since it will dampen their authority and control within Pakistan.

They control our foreign policy and as long as we are at loggerheads with India and Afghanistan, they will hold more power than the civil government, and the Defense Minister (usually retired generals) and the Foreign Minister will remain the biggest puppets in the country.

Agreed. In terms of national interests alone, Pakistan has very less to benefit from taking over IOK. Another dependent factor is how the land is taken over, if it is through war then it'll probably be a loss for Pakistan even if they occupy the entirety of IOK. A peaceful takeover will be far from a possibility but if it happens then it will become another Balochistan with a seemingly eternal guerilla war with separatist groups.

Cricketfan no 1
6th August 2018, 02:22
IOK will never gain independence or become part of Pakistan. However, if a miracle happens and they become part of Pakistan, it will backfire badly for Pakistan.

They will create problems for Pakistan and will not let us live in peace. The factions within IOK that don’t want to join Pakistan will play the victim card at the first opportunity.

We have managed to keep a lid on Pashtun and Baloch liberalization so far, and we cannot afford to open another front with a group of people that don’t belong to Pakistan.

Fighting a war that was never Pakistan’s, and fighting for people that never belonged to us has done no good for this country.

We have gained nothing from fighting for the people of IOK, and it has been a huge burden on our economy. We need to draw our forces and stop funding insurgencies - IOK is not our problem and they need to be left to their own devices.

However, that will never happen as long as the military calls the shots in Pakistan. Cordial relations with India is against their interests, since it will dampen their authority and control within Pakistan.

They control our foreign policy and as long as we are at loggerheads with India and Afghanistan, they will hold more power than the civil government, and the Defense Minister (usually retired generals) and the Foreign Minister will remain the biggest puppets in the country.

typical anti army statement, btw i didn't know Khawaj Asif, Khurram dastagir, naveed qamar were all retired generals

m.shah
6th August 2018, 09:46
Most of the people like me prefer independent Kashmir and a close relation with Pakistan. But first our target is to throw india out of kashmir inshaallah.

blackanhyellow
6th August 2018, 10:04
Most of the people like me prefer independent Kashmir and a close relation with Pakistan. But first our target is to throw india out of kashmir inshaallah.

Question, does IOK want to eventually gain Independence and join with Azad Kashmir / GB?

Azad and GB have been with Pakistan for a long time I am not sure they would want to separate, especially once IOK gains independance, then Pakistan wont have anything holding it back from giving Azad Kashmir and GB official provincial status.

Madplayer
6th August 2018, 10:35
Most of the people like me prefer independent Kashmir and a close relation with Pakistan. But first our target is to throw india out of kashmir inshaallah.

I think its a divided opinion because most of the people that i know want Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan. This was always the traditional approach of our previous generations.

Madplayer
6th August 2018, 10:48
Agreed. In terms of national interests alone, Pakistan has very less to benefit from taking over IOK. Another dependent factor is how the land is taken over, if it is through war then it'll probably be a loss for Pakistan even if they occupy the entirety of IOK. A peaceful takeover will be far from a possibility but if it happens then it will become another Balochistan with a seemingly eternal guerilla war with separatist groups.

It is in Pakistan's national interest because Pakistan considers Kashmir to be its territory in spirit. Pakistan has a lot to benefit from IOK. For instance all the controlling points of 5 Indus rivers are in IOK. Your energy crisis could get some relief. Not to mention the strategic importance of the region. I am not even going into the entire economic potential.

Ideally, Kashmir is better off alone and independent without sharing the economic burden of an economically backward and corrupt Pakistan. Pakistan has more to gain from Kashmir than Kashmir has to gain from Pakistan. However, due to security and other emotional issues i wouldn't advice idependence because it would be unstable. That is why i am in favour of a merger with Pakistan where the relations will be mutually beneficial.

Those advocating to leave IOK to itself are plain stupid imo who dont understand the multi-dimensional advantages this region provides. Not to mention giving up on decades of efforts and promises which would leave an eternal stain on your conscience. However, that is something abstract and its for you to deal with.

m.shah
6th August 2018, 11:44
Question, does IOK want to eventually gain Independence and join with Azad Kashmir / GB?

Azad and GB have been with Pakistan for a long time I am not sure they would want to separate, especially once IOK gains independance, then Pakistan wont have anything holding it back from giving Azad Kashmir and GB official provincial status.

The first thing that we have to do is get freedom from India to stop continuous killing from the hands of army (like in previous two days eleven brothers were killed in different parts of valley), so we are taking it one step at a time once we get freedom then all other options will open. The decision of majority of the people will be accepted then whether to remain free or with Pakistan.
We can't really force Azad kashmir and GB to be with us itz of course their wish what they think is better for them.

m.shah
6th August 2018, 11:48
I think its a divided opinion because most of the people that i know want Kashmir to be a part of Pakistan. This was always the traditional approach of our previous generations.
Yes the opinion is divided as far as I know majority of the people especially youth want to remain independent and some also want to join with Pakistan.

pkckt
6th August 2018, 14:21
It is in Pakistan's national interest because Pakistan considers Kashmir to be its territory in spirit. Pakistan has a lot to benefit from IOK. For instance all the controlling points of 5 Indus rivers are in IOK. Your energy crisis could get some relief. Not to mention the strategic importance of the region. I am not even going into the entire economic potential.

Ideally, Kashmir is better off alone and independent without sharing the economic burden of an economically backward and corrupt Pakistan. Pakistan has more to gain from Kashmir than Kashmir has to gain from Pakistan. However, due to security and other emotional issues i wouldn't advice idependence because it would be unstable. That is why i am in favour of a merger with Pakistan where the relations will be mutually beneficial.

Those advocating to leave IOK to itself are plain stupid imo who dont understand the multi-dimensional advantages this region provides. Not to mention giving up on decades of efforts and promises which would leave an eternal stain on your conscience. However, that is something abstract and its for you to deal with.

Of course there are benefits but how does IOK become a part of Pakistan in the first place will decide if its beneficial for Pakistan in the short-term. Indian government is too stubborn to just let them free without a war.

enkidu_
6th August 2018, 18:14
Peoples are so infused with the jahilya/innate materialism of the West that they quantify everything in economic terms : they have basically in a way absorbed the liberal/Marxist epistemology. In the West liberalism/Marxism at least were going in pair with crass materialism, scientific rationalism, expanding industrialism and expansive colonialism, but our own have just taken the worst of the package, without the few good points.

If you have this liberal/Marxist vision of history, you can't explain anything from Islam, from why a "bunch of Bedouins" united and defeated the two superpowers of their days - the Romans and Persians -, and why the same Arabs, who were seen as peripheral barbarians by the peoples who first mentioned them (the Assyrians, around 800 BC), in just a century had a bigger empire than Rome at its apex, under emperor Hadrian, at the beginning of the second century CE. Historians, anthropologists, sociologists, ... still wonder how all of that happened - it's the same for the '79 Islamic revolution in Iran, no one was expected the Shah to be ousted, certainly not the Carter administration - in a summer of (forced) secularization in the Islamic/Arab worlds, it was unexpected that a revolution rises in the name of religion and tradition.

Like it's not in our tradition to put our parents into nursing homes when they're "too old" (understand from a capitalist pov : not malleable into the labor force), the same who nurtured when we were ourselves "too young" (not economically active), even if Pakistan and/or Kashmir were THE worst of the worst in terms of economies, that shouldn't change our religious/ethnocultural bound.

You can't measure your soul on a balance, even less trade it, and it's the same here - our relationship with Kashmir can't be quantified in economic terms.

Many Kashmiris want to be part of the only modern State founded in the name of Islam, which in other terms means that its politics/cultural dynamics/social morals/... will always follow the Islamic praxis and norms, as a State (even if individuals can ofc diverge) - that alone is an argument.