Pakistani Leaders and Musharraf

[Wiji]

Firstly, I'd like to admit that I am not well-aware of our country's politicians and leaders, etc, whether past or present. Out of curiousity, I'd just like to hear views regarding certain issues in our politics, namely:

1. Why are a lot of people anti-Musharraf?
2. Aside from Jinnah, who do you think is the best ''leader'' Pakistan has had?

[suhaib]

1. Why are a lot of people anti-Musharraf?

which people, alot of people i know like him, its only the maullas and ignorant that hate him.

2. Aside from Jinnah, who do you think is the best ''leader'' Pakistan has had?

musharaf easily.

[robosapien]

1. Why are a lot of people anti-Musharraf?

So that the ignorants and the enlightened ones can be classified.

2. Aside from Jinnah, who do you think is the best ''leader'' Pakistan has had?
ofcourse musharraf. recently, we found out that jinnah was a liberal progressive muslim like musharraf as both enjoy the same drink in their free time.

[kablooee87]

1. Why are a lot of people anti-Musharraf?

So that the ignorants and the enlightened ones can be classified.

2. Aside from Jinnah, who do you think is the best ''leader'' Pakistan has had?
ofcourse musharraf. recently, we found out that jinnah was a liberal progressive muslim like musharraf as both enjoy the same drink in their free time.

get over yourself

[the Great Khan]

Musharref is the greatest leader ever...!!..he just loves that jack daniels!..but then what do us humble anti mushy's know..since we're all just ignorant Mullahs!!...damn Mullahs spoiling all the fun for everyone!!

[Hussain]

Firstly, I'd like to admit that I am not well-aware of our country's politicians and leaders, etc, whether past or present. Out of curiousity, I'd just like to hear views regarding certain issues in our politics, namely:

1. Why are a lot of people anti-Musharraf?

This is an understatement , Musharraf's supporters enjoy comfortable majority in Punjab assembly (province with 55% of Pakistani pop) and a sizeable majority in Sindh assembly while a coalition in Balochistan govt , which shows that many of the politicians in Pakistan are very much pro Musharraf


2. Aside from Jinnah, who do you think is the best ''leader'' Pakistan has had?

Liaquat Ali Khan , Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto



..

[Nauman]

which people, alot of people i know like him, its only the maullas and ignorant that hate him.
are you calling me a mullah or ignorant?

[Aurangzeb]

Firstly, I'd like to admit that I am not well-aware of our country's politicians and leaders, etc, whether past or present. Out of curiousity, I'd just like to hear views regarding certain issues in our politics, namely:

1. Why are a lot of people anti-Musharraf?
2. Aside from Jinnah, who do you think is the best ''leader'' Pakistan has had?

1. because pakistani's have become so disillusioned with politics they randomly hate whoever's in power just for the sake of hating...the right wingers hate him due to the fact that he drinks, owns dogs, and is westernized...people who love him go overboard and defend everything he does...i look at the alternatives: bhutto, nawaz, MMA?...i would rather take mushy over corrupt politicians and rightwing mullahs who will probably split up and fight one another if the ever gain power (god forbid)...i despise his strange affinity to ataturk, but i commend him on not bending his back for the US regarding AQ Khan and for speaking out recently against karzai and the british...in the ideal situation a leader like mahathir mohammad would probably be the best option...but this ain't no utopia...

2. honestly, i cannot answer that question...zulfi could have been, but he ruled like a tyrant...

[2DashingLahori]

1. Why are a lot of people anti-Musharraf?

This division shows Jahaliat and Hikmat-e-Amli. Anti side thinks we should let Taliban roam around freely and let them damage Islam and let our country fall in the evil traps of MMA + Lutera party. The anti side also thinks there has been no economic improvement at all. Anti side has no other man in mind for President. Mush's uniform has no effect on ppl's lives but will speak against it just for the heck of it.


2. Aside from Jinnah, who do you think is the best ''leader'' Pakistan has had?

Ayub Khan for kick starting the first economic boom of Pakistan.

Bhutto for starting nuclear programme.

Musharraf for kick starting economy (the 2nd boom), saving Pakistan from wrath of USA in 2001 and to end Jahaliat in Pakistan and end of the Mullah Military alliance started by Zia ul Haq. To tell the BRits and USA that we know you are supplying the BLA in Pakistan! For giving women their rights !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nauman]

This division shows Jahaliat and Hikmat-e-Amli. Anti side thinks we should let Taliban roam around freely and let them damage Islam and let our country fall in the evil traps of MMA + Lutera party. The anti side also thinks there has been no economic improvement at all. Anti side has no other man in mind for President. Mush's uniform has no effect on ppl's lives but will speak against it just for the heck of it.

Too much generalisation in the statement above, and I am deeply offended this.

[feather]

I love the President :)

History will tell its own tale hopefully it won't be written by Mullah's cause if they come into power I am seriously going to consider not going back home cause it will be a civil war anyway.

[2DashingLahori]

Too much generalisation in the statement above, and I am deeply offended this.

Nauman Bhai I am pretty much targetting this to the MMA, PPP, Nawaz supporters who are the ones who usually talk about the things I have mentioned. From your posts I know you are from none of thse categories. You should not be offended.

[2DashingLahori]

One thing I would like to mention is that you guys feel nothing is happening and current decisions look wrong.

Let's go back 1400 years ago when Muslims signed an agreement with the Quraish not to enter Makkah. Everyone was not happy with prophet Mohammad (PBUH) since they all thought this is a bad decision. However, it later tuned out that Quriash had to break thier own treaty and Muslims entered Makkah ( known as Fatah Makkah) and Islam won!

This is an example of a decision dat everyone thought was wrong and in the end it was biggest in the history of Islam ( to take over Makkah and finish Shirk).

So time will tell if Mush's decision was bad. WE need some patience and time to and some smartness to get around this USA/UK wrath of post 9/11. We can't play the Iran role we have no Oil and no one will come save us in a war. Our nuclear was new in 2001 and was not readily usable right away. Time has made us stronger in everything.

Now Mush is in a position to Bash USA/UK and Afghanistan which he did on his last tour! WE know USA/UK want to seperate Balochistan and we saved Pakistan from a potential war from the West. We already have an enemy on the East.

It was a great deicision and time will tell that it was best decision. The end to Taliban = end of radical manmade Islam and Pakistan's economy has kickstarted, 9 Univerities under construction and Billions of Dollar trade deal with China. Be Patient!

[Wiji]

Interesting replies... I haven't heard of the news regarding USA/UK arming BLA. I have to read about that.

To Nauman: what are your criticisms of Musharraf? And who would you like to see in power?

[2DashingLahori]

^^ ragarding the BLA and its arming..you may have noticed that he was declared terrorists recently...when before he was never done so!

When Bush came to Pakistan... BLA said it blew up Bomb near Embassy. When Charles came to Pakistan, we had the Bajur attack. They wanted Pakistan to blame UK/USA for Bajur attacks so that Pakistan becomes unstable... Military of Pakistan took the responsiblity to handle the issue..Military, ISI know what's going on.. they want to make Pakistan unstable.. break it apart and take away the nuclear.. and Military is too smart for dat.. dats what happening.

[qasim722]

ahem ahem..........
Nauman i,m waiting for your reply. :P

[ehjaz]

How many of the above commentators live in Pakistan to feel and observe the reality??

[2DashingLahori]

^^ the reality is that things are getting better.. if something happen to Mush.. pakistan will go into shambles and then ur "reality" will become clear.

[Invictus]

Mushy is not the next best thing since slice bread. He has his faults. He might not be as great as people claim but for the lack of better alternatives he is the best of what we got.
Pakistan did not produce a single leader since Jinnah. We had politicians but not even a mediocre leader thats the reason we are where we are.

[robosapien]

Mushy is not the next best thing since slice bread. He has his faults. He might not be as great as people claim but for the lack of better alternatives he is the best of what we got.
Pakistan did not produce a single leader since Jinnah. We had politicians but not even a mediocre leader thats the reason we are where we are.

when i look at mush, i see the institution behin him and not the man. i think it's a dangerous situation for pakistan for not having a stable running political system and politicians including army not abiding by the constitution and thus labelled as a failed state.

As our dashing lahori in canada pointed out that pakistan can go in shambles if something happen to mush so we can imagine how critical it is for us to agree on the rules of the game. i think institutes are more important than leaders. what is the reason that we could not produce a leader after jinnah? is it the lack of talent or political culture?

[Invictus]

Pakistan has been in that situation for a very long time. There are no institutions left that are strong enough. There is only one institution that is strong and disciplined enough so logically it is the one that runs Pakistan.
I don't think Pakistan will be in shambles if Mushy isn't there since the institution behind the face, which ever face that may be, would be the same. I would rather have Mushy there right now but thats just me.
I don't think its the lack of talent. I think its more to do with the system in place. We as people are the product of our environment. The tragedy of Pakistan has been that no one tried to put a system in place for anything. Jinnah did'nt have enough time but I saw it as a failing on his part not to groom a successor. After Jinnah the people that took control were to put it mildly self serving. The system that was in place which was serving the British well was kept and we see the consequences. That system was good for producing slaves, which it did. It was'nt designed to produce self respecting, intelligent, patriotic nation builders.
The point is that you need a system in place to produce and groom talent. Sports teams, nations, organizations they all need a system. This system is designed to produce individuals with certain skill sets on a standard bases. If you don't have that system in place you would not produce a consistent stream of talent and would be left with whatever else is available. That system consists of Constitution, Judiciary, Educational System, Method of governance, Identity of the Nation etc.
We have yet to figure out who and what we are an Islamic nation or a nation for the muslims.

[robosapien]

very good analysis.
As i said earlier, people tend to look at the leaders face than the political institution. we wait for the messiah who will come and fix things and a person in uniform suits more to that role. the situation reminds me of beckett's "waiting for godot" and that is the same problem with imran as it's a one man army and very much like a dictatorship in nature.

[Joseph K.]

when i look at mush, i see the institution behin him and not the man. i think it's a dangerous situation for pakistan for not having a stable running political system and politicians including army not abiding by the constitution and thus labelled as a failed state.

As our dashing lahori in canada pointed out that pakistan can go in shambles if something happen to mush so we can imagine how critical it is for us to agree on the rules of the game. i think institutes are more important than leaders. what is the reason that we could not produce a leader after jinnah? is it the lack of talent or political culture?

Magna Carta was signed almost a thousand years ago, it took mankind a thousand years to reach the level of respect for human rights that we see in the more advanced societies today. 1789 was the year of the fall of Bastille and the high point of the French Revolution, the beginning of modern struggle for democratic rights. These things take time but on the other hand as the educational and intellectual development takes place the pace of democratic evolution can be accelerated. If a bogus democracy gives us so-called leaders like Nawaz Sharif or the Bhutto girl then we are better off under a benign dictator who is striving to raise the standards of education and intellectual development. We must not forget that another dictator totally stunted this growth for twenty odd years. What Zia did to us needs to be undone and Mush is at least trying to overcome this problem. He heads a corrupt institution but we must not forget that Pakistan Army is one of the very few stable institutions that we have. If his goal of mass literacy is achieved then people can themselves make informed choices. Till then we have to wait (sadly his hard work is undone by opportunists like the Jamiat in higher education) :12:

[Invictus]

Thats why I never had faith in Imran. He did not went about things the right way. He never spent time at the grass-root level to build his party. Then he talks about institutions.
Thats true for all parties in Pakistan. PPP is all about the Bhutto's PML is about Nawaz. How would these people or parties do anything. Their entire "movements" are based on somehow someway get their leaders off the hook. They are all the same. They are all dictators and yet claim to hate dictators.

[Nauman]

It isnt about me hating Musharaf and alot of people on PP seems to think that if a person doesnt support Mushy he is supporting BB, Mian sahab or the mullahs. Thing is if Mushy is the best we have then he is probably least worst (if thats anything), you know as they say lesser of the two evils. As robo said there is no system in Pakistan so how do you expect leaders to come through? Leaders come out of the system, they arent miracles.

[Joseph K.]

It isnt about me hating Musharaf and alot of people on PP seems to think that if a person doesnt support Mushy he is supporting BB, Mian sahab or the mullahs. Thing is if Mushy is the best we have then he is probably least worst (if thats anything), you know as they say lesser of the two evils. As robo said there is no system in Pakistan so how do you expect leaders to come through? Leaders come out of the system, they arent miracles.

...and systems come out of history and are strengthened by education. Trying to bring democracy to a country without education is like putting the cart before your horse. It wouldn't work and people will elect those whose shoes they have been licking for generations. This kind of democracy will only benefit the strong and the oppressor. No wonder our democracy has produced the marvelous leaders mentioned above :))

[2DashingLahori]

Great discussion so far. The most imporant reason that Mush needs to stay right now is the fact that we have enemies on the East and the West. Military knows how secure Pakistan from such threats and that's why his stay is important.

He has kick started the economy and we have elections coming up and foundations are being laid so that military take over does not happen ever again.

Nato/USA/UK are all out to get Pakistan's nuclear and we need to play smart to safeguard it.