Balcony dancer V Mr Bits and pieces

[Amjid Javed]

i think the cricket fans have gotten very polarised when comparing the two coaches. One camp thinks Miandad was a fool and totally incompetent and Woolmer is some messiah for Pak cricket. The other camp thinks Woolmer is an over-paid, over-hyped coach who is unsuitable for the Pakistan players, culture, etc.

Since Woolmer inherited essentially the same set of players who were playing under the coaching of Miandad, it would be fair to compare the results of what the team had acheived under Miandad in his last stint as coach to what Pak team has done since Woolmer took over.

Woolmer has not completed his first year in office so end of West Indies tour would be the time for an exact head-to-head comparison.

But here is how it looks so far on paper:
---------------------------------------------
Miandad - April 2003 - April 2004

ODIs

2-1 vs. SL
1-0 vs. Kenya
2-0 vs. Zimbabwe
2-3 vs. India
1-2 vs. Eng
7-6 vs. NZ
2-3 vs. SA

22 wins and 15 losses
Tournaments/Series Wins:3
Tournaments/Series lost:5

Tests
6 wins 2 losses 2 drawn
SeriesWon: 3
SeriesLost: 1

JM

Total ------------> played 37 - won 22 lost 15 (59% wins)
V major --------> played 29 - won 14 lost 15 ( 48% wins)
V minnows ----> played 8 - won 8 lost 0 (100% wins)


---------------------------------------------------

WOOLMER Jun 2004 - Present
ODIs:

4-0 vs. India
0-4 vs. Aus
2-2 vs. SL
1-2 vs. WI
2-0 vs. Zimbabwe
1-0 vs. Kenya
3-0 vs. bangladesh

13 wins and 8 losses
Tournaments/Series won: 1 (BCCI Platinum Jubilee game against India)
Tournaments/Series lost: 5

Tests:
1-1 vs. SL
0-3 vs. Aus

1 win and 4 losses
Series won:0
series lost:1
Series drawn:1

BW

Total ------------> played 21 - won 13 lost 8 (62% wins)
V major --------> played 15 - won 7 lost 8 ( 47% wins)
V minnows ----> played 6 - won 6 lost 0 (100% wins)

|-b

I dont think either have been great. Lets hope Bob turns it around!

[pakistani pride]

Bob Woolmer will deffo turn pakistan into a good unit !

[dan hudson]

Woolmer needs time.

Give him another year and then re-assess.

Like he did with South Africa?
too many bits and pieces
beat everyone but....
when it came to the ultimate test Australia they couldnt do it!
Pak should be better than that!
Plus Bob should tell batsmen to use feet and play straight against spinners and not sweep all the time.

btw Dan, u have a point, look at SAF at ManUtd!
And look then at our cross city neighbours!!!!

[dan hudson]

Pakistan will get nowhere through constantly chopping and changing of coaches.

Back Woolmer, afford him patience and allow him to develop a team.

yeah but they need to embrace fundamental changes in their cricket and mindset which they will not do! They must look to Australia and not Woolmer who failed!

[dan hudson]

Who would you appoint as coach then Gary, in your fantasy land?

[Uzi]

Yes Woolmer needs more time. It is no good sacking a coach every few months. The coach has to be given time to build the team into a strong unit. I think Bob overall has done pretty well, obviously this series in Australia has been disappointing, but lets be honest, we weren't expecting Pakistan to beat Australia.

With the players they have they should be at least winning a test. The attitude and system has to change! I would like one of the Chappell brothers as coach.

[dan hudson]

I agree on that county, Gary, Greg Chappell would be perfect for Pakistan.

However, he would be very much a long-term coach and one that would look to change attitudes and mindsets first and results on the field second, at first.

which is what they need. I wish India had him!

[Waqas]

I think it is unfair to compare Miandad and Woolmer at this time because Woolmer hasn't had the team for very long. Someone mentioned that Woolmer had the same talent that was available to Miandad but that's not entirely true because Miandad had both Umer Gul and Shabbir Ahmed, Miandad also had Shoaib in great form and on many ocassions he single handedly won Pakistan games and even series.

I think Woolmer has had very positive influence on players like Afridi and Shoaib Malik and both have enjoyed more form sucess under BW. I also think that Woolmer relies too much on allrounders but ODIs are really about flexible cricketers.

[tahaqureshi]

well i think the only reaosn woolmer's record is lower than miandad's in test cricket is because we didn't have to face the aussies in miandad's tenure!

[Geordie Ahmed]

its no point looking at Woolmers TEST record cos we have only played 5 tests under him, which is not enough to judge him!

odis are about your best cricketers in my book!

[Officer Barbrady]

You can update that...2/2 and 1/4 against WI and Aus respectively.

And I love the nick balcony dancer for the old coach. |-Y |-U

[Officer Barbrady]

balcony dancer! :oD :oD :oD :oD :oD :oD





(yes i have lost it today)

[Schiller]

:oD :oD and this is contagious :oD

[Annie]

miandad is not a balcony dancer, unless some people have some experiences they aren't letting others in on...in that case, u're spending a wee bit too much time in front of miandad's balcony

[Schiller]

if mdad is not balcony then Lord knows who is :oD

[Hash]

balcony dancer :-D hilarious.

annie- miandad no balcony dancer? are you sure? Have you ever seen a game while miandad was coach?

[<< Rashid >>]

Amjid bro, when Pakistan whitewashed NZ in Pakistan, u and I know that that was a B-string New Zealand team, hence can be classed as a minnow.

Therefore a true analysis wud be:

MIANDAD:

vs Majors: Played 24 Won: 9 Lost: 15 :: Percentage Win is 37.5%

BOB WOOLMER:

vs Majors: Played 17 Won: 9 Lost: 8 :: Percentage Win is 52%

Eitherway, it is still too early to make a comparison.

[Annie]

ah the cricket balcony dancer then ;-? say it like that then...

[zorawar]

How about discussing some positive things done by both coaches for a change.


Positive Achievements by Miandad as coach:

* Took a demoralised and inexperienced team after World Cup 2003 debacle and showed positive results right away without the senior players in the team.
(won the very first ODI tournament they played without dropping a single game. Lost in the final of the 2nd ODI tournament)

* Won the first, second and third Test series the team played in against Bangldesh 3-0, South Africa 1-0 and New Zealand 1-0.

* Competed well with a much stronger Indian team and lost the ODI series 2-3 with some close games.

-----------------

Woolmer's major achievements:

* Took a more open and transparent approach towards selection. Discussing the choices publicly and explaining the thought process behind the decisions made by the team management.
[ too bad Bari does not do the same :( ]

* Defined better roles for some key ODI players such as Afridi, Rana, Shoaib Malik (although he seems to be waffling on Malik playing @#3) resulting in improved performances by these players in ODIs.

[firstslip]

pakistan team looks more professional under woolmer...they looked like manikchand eating team under miandad ....miandad was great player but as a coach he,s just good in making groups within the team...i mean comeon that guy was sacked 3 times ..there must be something wrong .
please mr zorawar dont come up with those stats again they r too long plus i,m tired of reading those again and again.i understand everybody is a big fan of miandad as a batsman even great imran khan was a big fan of his batting still did not get along with him. Javed miandad,s actual place is in national assembly of pakistan ,there he will get a good exposure(which he is very fond of).

[zorawar]

First Slip you said:

pakistan team looks more professional under woolmer...

How? Cuz of Woolmer's laptop? Just cuz we have a **** coach we feel our team is more professional is simply a sign of a **** inferiority complex. Imran likes to call it "Brown Sahib mentality"

miandad was great player but as a coach he,s just good in making groups within the team...i mean comeon that guy was sacked 3 times ..there must be something wrong

He was brought back twice wasn't he? If he was so bad then why do PCB calls him back when the team F***s up?
The groups were always there with the senior players no matter who the coach was. Once them and their politics were thrown out after the W'Cup 2003, the younger players worked very well under Javed and the stats you are so bored to read show that clearly.

even great imran khan was a big fan of his batting still did not get along with him.

I think they got along very well and played together to bring one of the best periods in Pak cricket. Personality differences does not mean you can make a blanket statements like this.

Javed miandad,s actual place is in national assembly of pakistan ,there he will get a good exposure(which he is very fond of).

Actually this is his biggest problem... Javed has really weak political skills... something that our **** coach is very skilled at :)

In any case, I am not going to criticize Woolmer without any reason just for the sake of it like you seem to be doing to Javed. I support Woolmer in good things he brings to Pak cricket as he is our current coach.

[Geordie Ahmed]

Zorawar whats with the constant mention of ****??

[firstslip]

Mr zorawar ,
cant u comeup with a short answer y 20 linesall the time .anyways....woolmer a lap top coach and pretty skilled in politics ...hmmmm still u dont wanna criticise woolmer. |-F

[zorawar]

Mr zorawar ,
cant u comeup with a short answer y 20 linesall the time .anyways....woolmer a lap top coach and pretty skilled in politics ...hmmmm still u dont wanna criticise woolmer.

|-H

That was a compliment to Woolmer's diplomatic skills not a criticism |-G

[shikari]

I think any new coach needs time to instill the philosphy he believes in.
Woolmer needs time to put the right pieces in place , weed out the crap and then develop the skills. Give him some time and he will do the job.

Similaly with Miandad, he had his owhn philosphy but i dont think he got a fair share as far as his tenure is concerned. He was brought back 3 times but persisted with.

Woolmer has the tools to do it, I think he will deliver. Pakistani team is a very difficult to coach anyways.

Give Bob a bit more time

[Abdul Qadir 236]

Woolmer may do what he did with S.Africa. Will Pak settle for that? Or do they want to crack the Aussies too?

[Karachi King]

both, Miandad &amp; Woolmer, are very good coaches. although Woolmer is a qualified coach &amp; Miandad is not but still Miandad comes in with lots of innovative ideas which really help players. e.g. he asked Inzi to bat left handed in the nets when Inzi was struggling with the bat &amp; Inzi strikes form straight away.

PCB did the wrong thing by sacking Javed but if they will bring him right now by sacking Woolmer, it means that PCB is repeating its mistake. Javed was not given a proper time still he was bringing very good results from a very inexperience side. now Woolmer got a bit settled line up &amp; experienced as well so he just put the things in the right spot &amp; get the results in his favour in ODIs (he has only 5 Tests under his belt thats why i am not counting them).

Aneel

[kashmiri]

hey do we pay the **** more than we paid miandad?

so, if miandad gets a **** passport, will he get pai more.

or is that equation only valid in the middle east?