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Saj
9th October 2007, 19:16
Lives being lost on "both sides of the fence" as battles rage on the Pak/Afghan border.

Is it time fort all parties to sit down and address the issue or is a firm hand necessary to resole the problem?

Hash
9th October 2007, 20:09
I don't believe in negotiating with militants. For a start their ideology is right at the opposite of the spectrum from me.

But leaving that out, what does negotiating mean? It means you come to a compromise, which means you give in to some of their demands.

By doing that you are sending a clear message to people, that it is perfectly ok to blow up bombs, to kill women and children, to brainwash kids into believeing they will get 70 virgins if they strap a belt around their waste and blow themselves up, it is perfectly ok to throw grenades into girls schools....all of this and more is PERFECTLY FINE, and we will talk with you and even give you a bit of what you want. That is unacceptable.

They should be hunted down and slaughtered.....hunted down to every nook and cranny in Pakistan.

But military action ON ITS OWN is not enough. You have to do more.......you have to empower the people of that region, build schools (make sure they don't get blown up if they are girls schools though), build hospitals, introduce projects in the region that will improve the lives of the people there.

aussie-pak
9th October 2007, 20:50
i reckon stuff can be resovled diplomatically. man, im sick of war srsly, and i dont think a "firm hand" will fix the problem, it will jsut become worse.

also, this can all just stop, if pak **** and mind their own business and dont get involved in the stupid "war on terror" AKA "war of oil"

Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar
9th October 2007, 21:00
the only way is by engaging the ordinary people of the area and investing there in education, health care, awareness, etc, until we get to the point that the people of the region themselves start rejecting the extremist ideologies and feel more of a connection to the rest of Pakistan. until the change comes from within their own people, nothing will change.

this strategy of "hunting" them down will not work. the Pakistani army has used these people throughout our history to fight many "jihads" - be it in Kashmir or Afghanistan. till yesterday they were holy warriors with the blessings of our choorian-wearing army and today they are militants and terrorists. it might be easy for urban Pakistanis to live with that contradiction but it isn't as easy for those people who were fighting "holy" wars or were encouraged to fight or support such wars.

when you use the kind of weapons the army has, collateral damage is inevitable. innocent Pakistanis of the region who lose friends and family in these fights at the hands of the army will not care why their loved ones died. they will only turn against the army and eventually the rest of the country. if we don't stop with this fighting inside of Pakistan, we will soon have a full blown civil war. you cannot bomb your own people no matter what.

similarly, it is the NCOs who're in the front lines. anyone who's interacted with these guys will tell you two things - there is a fair number of NCOs from the north and secondly they're fairly religious people. so, if you're expecting them to first kill their own people and secondly, do that with the active encouragement from the US, well then good luck. I'll be surprised if these occurrences of 300 soldiers "disappearing" and now 50 soldiers "disappearing" don't become very, very common.

the Great Khan
9th October 2007, 21:46
similarly, it is the NCOs who're in the front lines. anyone who's interacted with these guys will tell you two things - there is a fair number of NCOs from the north and secondly they're fairly religious people. so, if you're expecting them to first kill their own people and secondly, do that with the active encouragement from the US, well then good luck. I'll be surprised if these occurrences of 300 soldiers "disappearing" and now 50 soldiers "disappearing" don't become very, very common

every NCO i have spoken to since mushy came to power hates his guts..but wont go against the chain of command...I agree with everything MT has said...bombing them to smithereens has not worked and will not work...they are our people not indians or russians...Jinnah understood their importance and we should too..urban pakistanis who are scared of having a crap in a field wont understand these people...I agre elements who are being suported by foreign powers need to be dealt with but their needs to be an overall idea ..unfortunatley at the moment mushy seems to have just given up and BB is ready to partition the coutnry into chunks for her husband!!...and america rules the roost!!

Waseem
9th October 2007, 21:59
Well according to our knowledgeable poster Wazeeri, there isn't any militancy problem in Pakistan, all those militants were actually kicking taliban out of Pakistan and helping Pakistani forces untill Musharraf tackled them with force (under American instructions obviously) that made them turn against our own forces.

No one can deny that there is development happening in those areas than ever before, so it's not that Musharaff decided to just slaughter them all and used forces staright away, he had to take action and only problems with that action is sad loss of innocent lives (including soldiers offcourse) but you just can't let them run their show without any outside interference.
We should start investing money and provide proper free education to all students in Madrassah, increase sports activities, competitions etc to show them how they can contribute positively and constructively. Government should also monitor all the madrassas to make sure there is no brainwashing going on.

Waseem
9th October 2007, 22:01
every NCO i have spoken to since mushy came to power hates his guts..but wont go against the chain of command...I agree with everything MT has said...bombing them to smithereens has not worked and will not work...they are our people not indians or russians...Jinnah understood their importance and we should too..urban pakistanis who are scared of having a crap in a field wont understand these people...I agre elements who are being suported by foreign powers need to be dealt with but their needs to be an overall idea ..unfortunatley at the moment mushy seems to have just given up and BB is ready to partition the coutnry into chunks for her husband!!...and america rules the roost!!

Thanx for reminding us that we shouldn't take things that seriously :19:

Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar
9th October 2007, 22:08
Well according to our knowledgeable poster Wazeeri, there isn't any militancy problem in Pakistan, all those militants were actually kicking taliban out of Pakistan and helping Pakistani forces untill Musharraf tackled them with force (under American instructions obviously) that made them turn against our own forces.

wow. you're so subtle and sarcastic, o great one.

no one is saying that there isn't a militancy problem. however, let us not suffer from selective amnesia. that might be a good idea if you want to delude yourself but it won't get you far. there IS a militancy problem - a problem actively created, fermented, encouraged and used by the Pakistani army and establishment when it suited them. now, however, the problem is becoming inconvenient for the US and the Pakistani army. hence, they're using force to tackle them - which will not work when the soldiers are from the very region where they are supposed to be killing their own kinsmen.

and as far as saying "oh innocents will die for the greater good, well too bad", that is an extremely ignorant and not to forget barbaric attitude and it is exactly that attitude that causes countries to split up. you can NOT bomb your own country especially when innocents will die no matter what.

the Great Khan
9th October 2007, 22:09
Thanx for reminding us that we shouldn't take things that seriously

not my intention but hey no harm in putting a juli kutti statement now and then!!
but seriously i Would like to see how BB fares in the current climate...the army wont let her sell the country just yet but lets see...the tribal areas are aflame and will not subside as long as there are nato troops in afghanistan..a stable pakistan is too dangerous for them!!

Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar
9th October 2007, 22:10
Thanx for reminding us that we shouldn't take things that seriously :19:

taking things seriously means providing education, healthcare, social services to these people. bombing them is not taking them seriously - it is the exact opposite.

Hash
9th October 2007, 22:26
taking things seriously means providing education, healthcare, social services to these people. bombing them is not taking them seriously - it is the exact opposite.

but MT you cannot deny that there is a problem with militancy in that area. There are people there who want to see blood on the streets of Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad etc They wont dissapear if the army withdraws.

My question to you.....how should the government deal with the militants in Waziristan? I am not talking about the innocent people to whom, ofcourse, education etc should be provided.....I am talking about the people who brainwash children, the people who have set up training camps for so called Mujahideen.....should these things just be allowed to continue on Pakistani soil? I am genuinely interested in a fellow secular liberals point of view here.

Waseem
9th October 2007, 23:28
wow. you're so subtle and sarcastic, o great one.

no one is saying that there isn't a militancy problem. however, let us not suffer from selective amnesia. that might be a good idea if you want to delude yourself but it won't get you far. there IS a militancy problem - a problem actively created, fermented, encouraged and used by the Pakistani army and establishment when it suited them. now, however, the problem is becoming inconvenient for the US and the Pakistani army. hence, they're using force to tackle them - which will not work when the soldiers are from the very region where they are supposed to be killing their own kinsmen.

and as far as saying "oh innocents will die for the greater good, well too bad", that is an extremely ignorant and not to forget barbaric attitude and it is exactly that attitude that causes countries to split up. you can NOT bomb your own country especially when innocents will die no matter what.

Who is being sarcastic??
Here is what Wazeeri posted yesterday:

Ask people who actually know the ground realities and what they are talking about. The jirgas were able to control these people and they had on their own killed more foreign taliban than the army. These people were tired of the taliban as much as the rest of the world. But Musharraf backstabbed them and sent the troops in when the US congress started making noise. When our soldiers started getting killed Musharraf backed out again and started negotiating with them once again. The tribals went after the militantsbut once again Musharraf backstabbed them and that ended with the tribals joining and accepting the Taliban as their heroes and Pakistan as the enemy.

Wazeeri
10th October 2007, 01:05
Waseem

How many times have you been proven wrong and wrong again? A sensible person would learn.

I mentioned the jirgas (not militants) Jirgas which were made up of the very people Musharraf engaged into an agreement with. the very people who fought the Militants out from mainland NWFP. The very people who handed over dozens of these militants to the army,

Had it not been for the sudden illogical bombings on the moaning of the American senate these people would have still been on our side.

I have never said that there is no problem with militancy in Pakistan but if it helps your weak defeated arguments than be my guest. It is clear from the quote that you have posted that my argument is that it is not ideal to tackle these militants with force, it hasn't worked in the past, it isn't working and there is nothing to suggest that it will work at some point in the furtue.

But I am sure you have no problem with losing another 1211 troops in order to gain nothing.

BD-fan
10th October 2007, 01:14
I hear this word from many christians when they face a problem. WWJD.
What Would Jesus Do? (peace be upon him)

I ask everyone to ask themselves the same question just replace Jesus (PBUH) with Muhammad (PBUH). See what answer you get? If not seek the answer to the Almighty in a prayer. Certainly he would give the answer to you. May be not at that very moment but when he decides to. He gives knowledge to whom ever seeks.

suhaib
10th October 2007, 03:12
the army will probably be the closest to resolving the issue,

no point in sitting togeher with all our greedy political partys, they just to busy in trying to find ways to get power.

foojam
10th October 2007, 04:52
of course the governments of pakistan (not just the military) assisted in the talibanisation of the region...
its clear that unless the area is invested in it will be ripe for radicalism..if it is true as wazeeri said that local jirgas were instrumental in fighting extremism then its a policy that should have been promoted rather than ripped up..
however, i don't think thats the whole story...simply because of whats happening in afghanistan what happens in waziristan is vital now for the future of pakistan..

Zechariah
10th October 2007, 05:51
We should make every effort to talk to them and resolve the issues like gentlemen. Invest in the people there so that they can gain critical thinking through education etc. If it all fails and they decide not to talk then yes there is no other choice but to use force, but force must the last resort only.

Nakhuda
10th October 2007, 10:06
First we need to know exactly what is it that they want for only then can discussions go any further let alone reaching a positive conclusion.
What frightens me is what happens if they give a choice of accepting their extreme views or being victims of suicide bombings??.

Islamabadi
10th October 2007, 11:53
lets just give away baluchistan and sarhad like bangladesh...that will do it...

Invictus
10th October 2007, 12:12
Its not an easy problem and hence does not have a easy solution. First of all you cannot just go in and start killing people. That creates an environment that diminishes the difference between right and wrong and people tend to go to extremes.
The solution probably lies somewhere in the middle. People need to engage diplomatically, politically and militarily. Its not going to be an easy or quick resolution. It will take time and it will take patience. Trust needs to be rebuilt. No one wants to kill people randomly the only reason people go to these extremes is because they feel that they are not being heard. Give these people a voice givethem alternatives and slowly the problem will go away.

Blistering Barnacle
10th October 2007, 19:55
The Taliban are not reasonable people. They twisted the Afghan cultural trait of hospitality to use it as an excuse to shield Osama bin Laden, when they could have simply handed him over and prevented thousands of innocent people dying.

And these militants, many of them, consider themselves Pakistani Taliban. I don't see what kind of compromise the govt can reach with them. They have already invested a lot more into development of the region and they already tried a deal with them previously as well. These guys are the same guys who patrol around in vice squads and want women locked up at home without an education and guys forced to grow beards and all music banned and so on and so forth.

That they have been supported and financed by the military in the past doesn't mean that they should be allowed to continue to ignore the laws of the land.

Waseem
10th October 2007, 22:39
Waseem

How many times have you been proven wrong and wrong again? A sensible person would learn..

How did you prove me wrong Mr Wazeeri?? By showing " I KNOW EVERYTHING " attitude??? How did you prove that your jirgas fought the people out of NWFP??


I mentioned the jirgas (not militants) Jirgas which were made up of the very people Musharraf engaged into an agreement with. the very people who fought the Militants out from mainland NWFP. The very people who handed over dozens of these militants to the army,

Had it not been for the sudden illogical bombings on the moaning of the American senate these people would have still been on our side.

I was talking about militancy problem in Pakistan and how every damn terrorist's name is somehow linked to Pakistan. Why is it so easy for them to come to Pakistan for training?? What did JIRGAS do stop this at the first place?? How did they let foriegners to use THEIR land for terrorism purposes ???(Pakistani law doesn't APPLY in these areas).

Why is it easy for criminals from all over Pakistan to hide in those areas because Pakistani police can't touch them???What does your JIRGA do about it??

I don't think Musharaff is 100% right in this issue but your story sounds so damn convincing, hopefully you are able to convince a 10 year old with such one sided stupid story which you call "PROOF"

"Jirga killed foriegn militants but Musharaff went after JIRGA(how stupid of Musharaff isn't it??)but then he got scared and started negotiating again(poor Mushy) honourable JIRGA started killing talibans again ( WOW how patriotic is this JIRGA) but in the end, that traitor Musharaff backstabbed them once again (America ka ******* *****, must be getting paid loads of money by America). :19:

faisalm
10th October 2007, 23:05
The only way to defeat the militants in the short term is by force, but investing money into education, health care and improving living standards is the only long term way to stop the violence.

Wazeeri
11th October 2007, 01:01
How did you prove that your jirgas fought the people out of NWFP??

You must have been asleep during this whole episode if you think that they did nothing. It was the success of these Jirgas which lead to Karzai a critic to the idea at first, changing his mind and then organising a jirga of his own. He expressed his wish to have a jirga with the Pakistani Pakhtoons to smoke out the militants.

Maybe you remember the Jirgas negotiating the release of the Pakistani army men not so long ago.


Why is it so easy for them to come to Pakistan for training?? What did JIRGAS do stop this at the first place?? How did they let foriegners to use THEIR land for terrorism purposes ???(

Because the Pakistani army played the divide and rule games and replaced all tribal elders with a new authority a militant madrassah. The head of which was financially and militarily aided by the Pakistani army. Then these people were promoted as heroes of islam in NWFP to make sure they were not attacked.


Jirga killed foriegn militants but Musharaff went after JIRGA(how stupid of Musharaff isn't it??)but then he got scared and started negotiating again

waseem trust me Mr stupid will have to negotiate with the jirgas once again. The pakhtoon elders don't like sharing authority and thus want rid of the taliban and the Pakistani army nor any army in the world can sustain occupation of the area for too long.

yes they may defeat the militants and set up army posts for a while but these people always regroup and attack using guerilla tactics.

suhaib
13th October 2007, 00:56
Waseem

How many times have you been proven wrong and wrong again? A sensible person would learn..

LOL, you worry about how many times you have been proven wrong instead of worrying about others.

what a line coming from wazeeri, or shall mr. double standards. LOL

Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar
14th October 2007, 00:43
but MT you cannot deny that there is a problem with militancy in that area. There are people there who want to see blood on the streets of Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad etc They wont dissapear if the army withdraws.

I think there needs to be a distinction between Pakistani tribesmen and Taliban/Alqaida/terrorists. currently no distinction is being made. Taliban etc might have always wanted blood on the streets of Lahore, Karachi, Isloo, etc. the tribesmen didn't always want the blood of their own countrymen. if they want it now, it is for revenge. when you lose your family and friends, you're not going to sit down and try to reason such a situation. the more we bomb and kill Pakistani tribesmen, the more hatred a Pakistani tribesman develops for the army and the rest of the country.

if tomorrow the govt decides to bomb a part of Lahore because of some rogue elements hiding there, do you think the relatives and friends will "understand" that this had to be done and their loved ones were unintended victims of "collateral damage" in the "war of terror". I don't think so.


My question to you.....how should the government deal with the militants in Waziristan? I am not talking about the innocent people to whom, ofcourse, education etc should be provided.....I am talking about the people who brainwash children, the people who have set up training camps for so called Mujahideen.....should these things just be allowed to continue on Pakistani soil? I am genuinely interested in a fellow secular liberals point of view here.

the way to resolve this is by stopping the bombing and trying to reach out to the masses. Pakistanis of the region are either scared of the Taliban or are beginning to support them because Pakistani forces have bombed the ordinary Pakistanis there. you cannot beat out the terrorists of the region without the active support of the Pakistanis of the region.

as far as setting up jihadi camps etc is concerned, I think that is a hamaam where everyone is nanga. even election whores like Sheeda Talli was running a jihadi camp once upon a time. Sheeda Talli is far from a conservative or an Islamist. he believes in nothing but his own pleasures and kursi and even he was running a jihadi camp. today he's a minister. if these people were setting up such camps, madrassas etc, they were doing so with the knowledge and support of the govt. when you allow people to do things like that and tacitly encourage them, then you will have to face the repercussions.

also, lets be honest the enemies of the Taliban etc are not us. we're being targeted because we're part of the "war of terror". I don't see why we need to kill our own people (liberal, secular, Taliban, conservative or whatever) for foreign nations' interests.

I don't think this scenario is as simple as I've tried to describe. it is also not as black and white as you think. we have come to this point after decades long mistakes. but we seem to be approaching the point of no return. so, the govt MUST stop all bombings to prevent civilian casualties and then institute a long-term process of healing and development.

Wazeeri
14th October 2007, 01:51
Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf has blamed a group of more than 200 soldiers for their capture by pro-Taleban militants.

"I think they acted unprofessionally in that they were trying to clear a road block without taking any precautionary measures," he told the BBC.

The fact the president criticised the soldiers despite their still being in captivity is a sign of his frustration.

He knows that many Pakistanis do not agree with army actions in Waziristan.

Gen Musharraf, who is still chief of army staff, is also aware that others are shocked that the militants have been able to win control of parts of the tribal area on the border.

'Position of strength'

The president was speaking in an exclusive BBC interview at his office near the army's general headquarters in Rawalpindi.



It's not Musharraf's fault. It is the poor standards of the army men.

Wazeeri
14th October 2007, 01:56
LOL, you worry about how many times you have been proven wrong instead of worrying about others.

what a line coming from wazeeri, or shall mr. double standards. LOL

I do worry about all the times I have been proven wrong, Oh great spin of king.
and I am in the process of coverting my double standards into a manageable consistant bite size single standard.

now we "shall single standard"

Zeenix
14th October 2007, 15:44
All you folks talking about militancy don't even have a clue what is going on in Wazeeristan. Currently Jet fighters are bombing Wazeeristan. India even in all the rebellion going on in Kashmir never bombed with Jet fighters. All roads leading to and from wazeeristan are blocked from Bannu onwards. Thousands have been killed/injured by bombings, there is no food, banks are closed, no one can come out of his home. There is a genocide going on in Wazeeristan. Nobody cares about it, why because innocent Puktoons are being killed, Every party raised hue and cry when Army conducted operation in Baluchistan and a handfull of people were killed. Nobody is raising any voice (barring Imran Khan) against the genocide. PPers seem to think that every person of Wazeeristan is Taliban and Alqaeeda. No it isn't and they are not the ones who are being killed.

The innocent blood which is being spilled isn't going to go un noticed. Slowly but gradually the people are rising. From the ashes of Wazeeristan will rise a revolution which will kick the tyrants, however Pakistan will suffer and be fragmented. Those people thinking that Pakistan can survive only with Punjab will soon find out how wrong were they. The Army can't dare to come out of their forts. Unfortunately to appease the Americans we have started the process of self destruction.

deviously~fading~away
14th October 2007, 16:18
I don't believe in negotiating with militants. For a start their ideology is right at the opposite of the spectrum from me.

But leaving that out, what does negotiating mean? It means you come to a compromise, which means you give in to some of their demands.

By doing that you are sending a clear message to people, that it is perfectly ok to blow up bombs, to kill women and children, to brainwash kids into believeing they will get 70 virgins if they strap a belt around their waste and blow themselves up, it is perfectly ok to throw grenades into girls schools....all of this and more is PERFECTLY FINE, and we will talk with you and even give you a bit of what you want. That is unacceptable.

They should be hunted down and slaughtered.....hunted down to every nook and cranny in Pakistan.

But military action ON ITS OWN is not enough. You have to do more.......you have to empower the people of that region, build schools (make sure they don't get blown up if they are girls schools though), build hospitals, introduce projects in the region that will improve the lives of the people there.
Hash has summoned up what i believe to be the right choice on this issue.

Wazeeri
14th October 2007, 17:27
When the USA bombs Iraq everyone repeats the same rhetoric about how bombing is only going to create more militants but when it comes to our army everything goes. Collateral damage is perfectly fine.

It's not my family that may get hit so why should I worry?

the SHA
14th October 2007, 21:10
One has to ask why a few of the 130,000,000 people in Pakistan are willing to resort to violence & militancy and why most of the 130,000,000 are not?

The answer lies in the composition & condition of those few people. Monsters are not born, they are made - even Satan himself!

Firstly, according to their understanding, they believe that their own objectives are best achieved by these actions. Secondly, they believe that the risk of losing what they have got is not enough to deter them from these actions. Whilst the former can be rooted in their education, the latter is due to the perception of their own impoverishment (in social &/or economic terms).

As long as any people anywhere are consistently excluded from these rights, there will be always be a destructive anti-social reaction from such people. Which in Pakistan since the 1980's, often means by the bullet or bomb.

the SHA
14th October 2007, 21:15
Hash:
you have to empower the people of that region, build schools (make sure they don't get blown up if they are girls schools though), build hospitals, introduce projects in the region that will improve the lives of the people there.

I totally agree with this.

Zeenix
14th October 2007, 23:53
One has to ask why a few of the 130,000,000 people in Pakistan are willing to resort to violence & militancy and why most of the 130,000,000 are not?

The answer lies in the composition & condition of those few people. Monsters are not born, they are made - even Satan himself!

Firstly, according to their understanding, they believe that their own objectives are best achieved by these actions. Secondly, they believe that the risk of losing what they have got is not enough to deter them from these actions. Whilst the former can be rooted in their education, the latter is due to the perception of their own impoverishment (in social &/or economic terms).

As long as any people anywhere are consistently excluded from these rights, there will be always be a destructive anti-social reaction from such people. Which in Pakistan since the 1980's, often means by the bullet or bomb.

True, They were created when Pak Army and Agencies created Militant organizations like Laskhar tayyaba, Jaishe Mohammadi, Hazb e Mujahideen and countless others. Then they supported them, financed them and allowed them to open their offices and camps and recruit young people. So the root of all evils is Pak Military and its agencies

Zechariah
15th October 2007, 00:13
JI was heavily involved with Mard-e-momin as well. The idea came from the army, the logistics came from the army but the mullahs supported it wholeheartedly as they were being given part of the pie as well.

What we are seeing today is a product of the Military Mullah Alliance of the past.

Zeenix
15th October 2007, 00:31
JI was heavily involved with Mard-e-momin as well. The idea came from the army, the logistics came from the army but the mullahs supported it wholeheartedly as they were being given part of the pie as well.

What we are seeing today is a product of the Military Mullah Alliance of the past.

Yes, infact one of the worst things to happen in Pakistan was the Mullah Military Alliance, though historically muslims have suffered from Monarch Mullah Alliance. However there is no doubt that almost all the blame has to be taken by the military for starting this Talibaan and its system.

Zechariah
15th October 2007, 00:58
Yes, infact one of the worst things to happen in Pakistan was the Mullah Military Alliance, though historically muslims have suffered from Monarch Mullah Alliance. However there is no doubt that almost all the blame has to be taken by the military for starting this Talibaan and its system.

I was reading a book on the Taliban the other day and int it stated that Zia had a dream about unifying Central Asia, where the message of Islam [his brand of Islam + Saudi brand] will spread all over Central Asia. In fact in the 80s it was beginning to be thought that Afghanistan and Pakistan were probably moving slowly towards a union or a close partnership but what Zia never considered was what his idea and so called legacy will do to Pakistan in the future.

Zeenix
15th October 2007, 14:19
I was reading a book on the Taliban the other day and int it stated that Zia had a dream about unifying Central Asia, where the message of Islam [his brand of Islam + Saudi brand] will spread all over Central Asia. In fact in the 80s it was beginning to be thought that Afghanistan and Pakistan were probably moving slowly towards a union or a close partnership but what Zia never considered was what his idea and so called legacy will do to Pakistan in the future.

It was the so called strategic depth paradigm of our Armed Forces that they thought of annexing Afghanistan. If you look at our map all it needs is one armoured core to split pakistan in half since its width isn't that much. If Afghanistan was annexed Pakistan territorial depth would increase since it would be very hard for India to reach out to afghanistan to attack our bases. That was the reasoning why zia thought of annexing afghanistan as the fifth province

akram_rejuvinated
15th October 2007, 14:36
Jobs and Education.

A better economy where they can attain jobs that provide an income adequate for atleast individual sustenance and replacing the religious texts with those of science and mathematics would be a great place to start.

since neither can be achieved overnight, especially the later (good luck trying to convince the mullahs that einstein takes preceedence over the koran...) hence this problem is here to stay.

and the unfortunate problem is that greater militancy feeds itself! more the militancy, more backward the economy; higher the unemployment and thus higher the number of individuals who will fall victim to militancy. a rather deft treatement of this matter was giving in the movie syriana...

the Great Khan
15th October 2007, 15:24
as long as mush is in charge things will get worse...people here talk about developemnt and throwing money at the tirbal areas..ha..what a joke..what you have to do is eliminate the thought that Islam itself is under attack..if you remove that then the problem solves itself..unfortunatley with NATO troops in afghanistan nothing will change...we should make peace in the tribal areas and ensure our own country stabilises first...to hell with the US war..if tribals are crossing the border what do we care as long as our country is stable..that should be our concern!!...the americans can deal with their own problems!!...but alas our great mughal e azam has sold his soul to washington and is eager to get a place at the rand corporation like his best mate JK!!!...down with mush and the **** that support him and his dangerous ways!!

Mutazalzaluzzaman Tarar
16th October 2007, 08:40
an outstanding article by the great Ayaz Amir on the situation in Wazeeristan and the plight of our peasant army.

----------------------------

Advantages of a ‘peasant’ army

link: http://dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm

By Ayaz Amir

IN better-off countries than ours battlefield casualties matter. When soldiers die explanations have to be offered. A body count is kept and if it gets too high, questions are asked.

How much more convenient is our situation where casualties, especially of lower ranks, don’t matter as much as they do, say, in the US or the UK. If the US army had suffered a tenth of the casualties our military forces have endured in North Waziristan these past few days Washington would have been in turmoil and people would have been out in the streets.

Most of the lower ranks of the Pakistan army are drawn from the peasantry of a few districts in northern Punjab and the Frontier — so-called martial races (not that there is much martial about them) who provided recruits to the British to police the borders of Hindustan and fight their wars in distant lands. That pattern of recruitment remains much the same. The South Asian peasant: what can be more expendable than him?

Every day brings news of soldiers killed or captured in Waziristan, the number of the captured often embarrassingly high. Yet neither public opinion nor that inner sanctum, General Headquarters, seem overly concerned. The kind of outrage that should be there is simply missing.

What’s happened to the over 200 soldiers, including a lieutenant colonel and several other officers, captured by militants in Waziristan last month? We don’t know. Imagine if half a dozen American soldiers had been captured in Iraq. We would have heard no end of the matter. TV news channels would have been full of nothing else. Yet here the most astounding events occur on a daily basis and no one in authority seems to lose much sleep over them.

Ever since those over 200 soldiers went missing — and mind you, more have gone missing since — this should have been the number one item of national concern. Is it?

Granted that the man in the street, grappling with the problems of everyday existence and not much enamoured of things military, may not have much sympathy left over for the travails of our boys in khaki. But what about the army command itself?

Its first order of business these past few weeks should have been the return of the captured soldiers. But it seems to have had other things on its mind: weightier stuff such as the president’s re-election, the deal with Benazir Bhutto, petitions in the Supreme Court, the coming elections, pleasing Washington, etc. Politics first, the plight of our soldiers can wait.

The Supreme Court is looking into the issue of farmland around Islamabad meant for vegetable farming but allotted by the Capital Development Authority to a list of the good and the great who have built palatial ‘farmhouses’ on that land. The president has one such ‘farm’, the prime minister another. I am sure there is more concern in Islamabad about this scandal coming into the open than about anything happening in Waziristan.

This calls for a serious reappraisal of priorities. The military in places like Burma, Thailand and Indonesia only play politics, and they are rather good at it. Those militaries have no ambition of fighting a war with anyone. Devoted to peace, they are at the same time dedicated to the pursuit of power.

The Pakistan army, by contrast, is mixing its drinks and has been doing so for a long time. It is playing politics, and at this it has become rather good, but at the same time it finds itself embroiled in serious conflict, with its own people and within its own borders.

Time was when the enemy was India. A good thing our army is no longer interested in that front, in fact is in no position now, physically or psychologically, to repeat such adventures as the ’65 war or Kargil (surely one of the most asinine operations undertaken anywhere in recent times). A good thing we have turned that corner although it would have been better if we had done so on our own instead of being prodded in that direction by the United States. Where we have ended up doing some downright stupid things at US bidding, we have done some good ones too, this perhaps being one of them. The question still arises: when will we learn to think for ourselves?

But to proceed with the argument, an end to our Indian obsession should have meant a peace dividend, a slowing down of the arms race, the freeing of resources for social objectives. Instead, we have replaced one kind of jingoism with another. Towards India we cultivated our own folly. In our tribal areas we are cultivating folly at the behest of our American godfathers.

And we continue to spend big on arms. To fight whom? For God’s sake, why do we need more F-16s? Why do we need a new GHQ in Islamabad? Don’t we have enough poverty to contend with? Nor is the army convinced of the rightness of what it is doing in the tribal areas. This is a war for which it has neither stomach nor inclination. It is a war, prosecuted for the most part foolishly, in pursuit of objectives defined by the US.

Billed as a conflict for the soul of Pakistan, extremism vs moderation, it is, alas, nothing of the kind. Our soldiers are being shot like rabbits in Waziristan not for the greater glory of Pakistan but to save America’s backside in Afghanistan. Without our soldiers in such numbers on the Durand Line the position of the Americans and their Nato allies in Afghanistan would become untenable.

Providing logistics’ support to the Americans was one thing. If our devil’s bargain with them had involved only this, some justification for it might yet have been found. But we are on a slippery slope and are having to do that which we had never imagined.

As for the supreme commander who I suppose we will have to live with for some more time, he is helpless. For his survival he needs the Americans. But for the Americans to continue holding him up, he needs to keep the army in the tribal areas, fighting a war history tells us it can never hope to win.

We should have no truck with the Taliban. Hands off Afghanistan is the best policy we can pursue. But does it follow that we become mercenary tools in America’s hands?

We must not hold the lives of our soldiers, even if peasants from the Pothowar Plateau, Bannu, Kohat, etc, cheap and turn them into fodder for an alien war. At the same time, the army, especially the intelligence services under its wings, must also learn to respect life. The use of torture to grill suspects in the ‘war on terror’ is inexcusable. Some of the torture methods, one hears, are truly horrifying. Torture diminishes both victims and practitioners.

The bodies of some of our soldiers have been mutilated in Waziristan. Despicable. But the answer to this is not to make a Fallujah out of Mirali by sending in F-16s to bomb it. As in Iraq, mindless reprisal only spreads hatred and stiffens resistance. And brings more recruits to the other side. We must look at first causes and find out why we are there in the first place.

Zechariah
16th October 2007, 09:25
Excellent article MT, this is getting serious and innocent soldiers and people are dieing because of who, a war that we have no part in, a war killing our own people for American oil and business interests.

However, we cannot ignore the fact that Al Qaeda and Taliban are carrying out their operations as well and they need to be killed not to be talked with.

Blistering Barnacle
16th October 2007, 09:40
That article seems to ignore the fact that the Taliban and foreign fighters and also Al Qaeda have been operating from our side of the border.

They've also been enforcing their screwed up version of Islam.

He's acting as if we are a disinterested 3rd party that is sticking our hand in business that is not our own. And that is false.

the Great Khan
16th October 2007, 17:49
ceasefire announced in waziristan according to elders...more soon inshallah!

Joseph K.
16th October 2007, 20:21
That article seems to ignore the fact that the Taliban and foreign fighters and also Al Qaeda have been operating from our side of the border.

They've also been enforcing their screwed up version of Islam.

He's acting as if we are a disinterested 3rd party that is sticking our hand in business that is not our own. And that is false.

Very well said. Americans or no Americans, if Pakistan stops supporting these fanatics, they'd turn around and bite the hand that has been feeding them for over two decades. American involvement in this region is only giving them a smoke-screen to legitimise their so-called jihad. The main problem is the discontinuity of Pakistani support. Now we are fair game for them. Support us and we will go and wreak havoc everywhere in the name of Islam, stop supporting us and we will destroy you in the name of Islam! How I thank that idiot Zia ul Haq for creating these monsters for decades to come. What do you reap when you sow dragon's teeth? Rest assured there'll be no peace till Pakistani government resumes supporting the international terror networks.

Zeenix
17th October 2007, 00:42
That article seems to ignore the fact that the Taliban and foreign fighters and also Al Qaeda have been operating from our side of the border.

They've also been enforcing their screwed up version of Islam.

He's acting as if we are a disinterested 3rd party that is sticking our hand in business that is not our own. And that is false.

Another wise man, oblivious of the ground realities. People tend to think that Wazeeristan is an area thousands of miles, and every home there is hiding an Al Qaeeda member there. Bhai mere, there are lot more (full provinces) in Afghanistan having taliban and Al Qaeeda members. A few members here and there in Wazeeristan isn't the justification to bomb thousands of people. Not many people know that when Pakistan started operation in Malakand agency against the Taliban movement of Sufi Mohammad in the times of Benazir Bhutto, no one in Wazeeristan rose in their support. Wazeeristan rose against the Army when they moved in. Even then there were solo incidents, but when Army resorted to using Artillery and heavy weapons and when innocent people started to die, the resistance became a popular movement. You can't expect people to hurl garlands at you when you kill them.

HillRock
17th October 2007, 01:38
Another wise man, oblivious of the ground realities. People tend to think that Wazeeristan is an area thousands of miles, and every home there is hiding an Al Qaeeda member there. Bhai mere, there are lot more (full provinces) in Afghanistan having taliban and Al Qaeeda members. A few members here and there in Wazeeristan isn't the justification to bomb thousands of people. Not many people know that when Pakistan started operation in Malakand agency against the Taliban movement of Sufi Mohammad in the times of Benazir Bhutto, no one in Wazeeristan rose in their support. Wazeeristan rose against the Army when they moved in. Even then there were solo incidents, but when Army resorted to using Artillery and heavy weapons and when innocent people started to die, the resistance became a popular movement. You can't expect people to hurl garlands at you when you kill them.
You, Sir, are talking some sense. That is not the currency of the day.