Lets face it: We arent good enough

[Momo]

I know that this will cause a mini-riot and is sure to invite bigorty allegations but am posting it anyway. So here goes:

Most of the opinions of the jazbaati Pakistani fans are result-based. As long as they keep on winning, nobody seems to mind whether our players say bismillah or not, or grow beards or whatever. Even "pundits" like Osman Samiuddin write articles like "how religion has united them as a gel..."; but as soon as they start losing, suddenly it is because of the beard (or betting or some other excuse)!

The underlying assumption is that as a rule we are good enough to be world beaters and the fact that we are not can only be explained by something as simple as a beard or lack of concentration or a trip to a bar before the match.

My argument is: Can't we understand that maybe we are not good enough and the way we perform is symptomatic of our quality as a cricket team? After all, we are not exactly world beaters in any department be it politics or science or medicine or for that matter any other sport. Why is this so hard to digest? You can see the working of PCB and see for yourself. Afterall teams are made of people and the character (not moral character) of those people pretty much governs the quality of that team. We as a nation are producing small people (and hence small cricketers). If Zimbabwe or Bangladesh lose, everybody is satisfied because they are "not good enough in the first place". When we lose, suddenly there has to be a conspiracy theory (betting, or some other explanation, otherwise how can we lose?).

Isnt it a pretty immature and disgusting bahavior on the part of most of our cricket fan fraternity? And what does it result in? Disillusionment and anger over and over again. Lets be a little more mature and enjoy cricket as a game (understanding that better teams generally win and we are not one of the better teams by any stretch of imagination).

Having said that, I would like to qualify my argument a liitle. I feel that Pakistani fans take defeat much better than the Indians, in that although they are broken hearted after every loss, they atleast are men enough not to leave the stadium until the final ball is delivered (unlike Indian spectators). Then, they generally dont throw bottles when our team is losing (sometimes they do but unlike Indians, they dont have to be exelled from the stadium for the match to proceed in an empty stadium). So all is not lost but I feel we need to be a little more mature and realistic, for the sake of our own blood-pressures if not for the sportsmanspirit and all that sort of rot.

[filosofee]

Fantastic post, Momo. Just one point: I can't be man enough to take a defeat, but that's because I'm a woman!

[Imy]

We are notgood enough yes, but not because we cant be its because of our negative attitide that we lost. Alao beacuse wethought people from outside no matter what there style can help us they didnt and actually turned us in to a negative tea. People pay to there strengths we didint we tried to play to other peoples perceived weakness

[Oxy]

Well, thats been the case for at least 7-8 years...simply not good enough to challenege the TOP spot in cricket.

BUT - fans dont see it like that. Go from extremes of 'we are the best' - and when the inevitable disappointment of defeat hits home, 'we are the worst'.

Last time we were WORLD CLASS was probably in late 1990s?

We do deserve what we get though...

[HAL]

Last time we were WORLD CLASS was probably in late 1990s?



In terms of test cricket, the real thing, that would be around late 80s, when Imran and Javed showed why they were true legends (instead of the ones that are proclaimed on regular basis on the Internet these days) by challenging and almost beating the mighty West Indies, that too away.

But yes, Pakistan cricket, especially outside subcontinent simply has been quite poor for many years now. Most people who follow cricket know that. The skills simply aren't there, and that is the long and short of it.

[Momo]

Fantastic post, Momo. Just one point: I can't be man enough to take a defeat, but that's because I'm a woman!

Thank you, Filosofee. I dont mind either man or woman enough; what I really dont like is the in-between attitude. Woman enough will do as good as man enough!

[tradecars]

good post have to agree with you. a lott of the times i dont even want to post or reply to threads as i cant be botherd because of the way we loose.
most of all what gets under my skin is the lack of faith the selectors/ pcb have in blooding in pure raw tallent and not willing to just throwing them in the thick of it. we are loosing anyway why not give the young guns some raw work experience and see who can deal with pressures of the real deal.
anyway long live pakistan cricket

[WasimG]

Last time we were WORLD CLASS was probably in late 1990s?
Tests - 1996 after Eng tour, when Atherton called us the best test side in the world.
Amir, Saeed, Ijaz, Inzi, Salim, Rashid, Wasim, Waqar, Mushy etc.


ODIs - 1999 .... just before the world cup final
Saeed, Afridi, Ijaz, Inzi, Yousuf, Moin, Razzaq, Wasim, Shoaib, Waqar, Saqi

I dont mind either man or woman enough; what I really dont like is the in-between attitude. :20:

[Boi]

them main reason why we cant play well outside subcontinent is cos in the domestic structure we dont have sporting wickets that have some thing uin it for the bowlers if we can do this than it would challenge our batsmen and it would give our bowlers and easier time

[Invictus]

We were one of the best with our nation/people doing allot worst then they are doing currently. Not just in cricket either it was cricket, squash and hockey. So the jest of your argument doesnt go down well with me.

[zam]

first of all we should learn about our domestic cricket. Lets me compare two countries becaue i have witnessed both domestic cricket.....Pakistan first...there are no coachs at the grass level at the club grounds who could teach technicallities to the batsman,,,there are captains who take care of each aspect hence we produce self made cricketers...and coaching is must before teen....other wise it becomes harder to change it...most of the pakistani batsman dont know the basics of defence,our batsman hold the bottom hand too stong hence they play uppishly whilst the bottom hand should be just a pivoting hand and the upper hand should have the strong grip so the bat will come down after the srtoke and if the lower hand will be strong the bat will go up after hitting hence the ball goes for six....that's why our batsman are easy at sixes... why inzi was good because he was a leftie and hence had a very solid uper grip.....in india i witnessed the dehli cricket ground, they teach their juniors at the club level and one can predict that who is coming up ... but in the fast bowling department their focus is not as strong as in the batting thats' why they ever produce good batsman and we produce one in a ten years....in india they hang the ball with roof and asks the batsman to hit the ball time and time again with just one top hand grip....no bottom hand and that's how their top hand grip becomes very strong in other ways they built top hands muscles..........thanks

[in_cutter]

Since Wasim/Waqar/Anwar have gone, we have struggled big time- Anwar held the top order, and the two W's our bowling....there were days when we use to produce raw talent- these days politics/in-fighting has taken over, plus poor fitness/coaching are another factor.

Fans who claim this and that player are the next Waqar or Anwar are living in a dreamland, these guys are once in a generation cricketers- we are good but not brilliant like we use to be and it's time we accepted that.

[dblock]

Can't match standard of players of the past is one thing, but too so under use the present level of talent is quite another. People have to realise that development of players, structures in place, fitness are not the same of 20, 30 years ago, then it was more of an even playing field. Remember of teams didn't know how to bowl reverse swing, there wasn't all these coaching programmes and fitness regimes that would make someone like Collingwood a quality player, I would say in the 80's he would have been a virtual nobody.

Pakistan were one of the best teams to exploit weaknesses in the oppositions tail, because then they weren't supposed to bat. Even in the 90's we had Saqlain who was at the forefront on spin bowling and Mushy was a world class leggie, now all the doosra's and stuff are utilised by other teams while our spinners hardly look like picking up wickets in tests.

Yes the players are not as good as before but also Pakistan cricket has pretty much been stifled in meeting the requirements of modern day cricket, whereas other teams have and are progressing ahead.

[Blistering Barnacle]

I think the team is good enough - good enough to be among the top 3 teams in the world.

So it is naturally disappointing when we lose a series like the one just concluded and look a lot worse in the process than we really are.

[Boundary View]

This is one of the best posts Ive ever read on this site. Sadly, we are quite unrealistic on this site. We don't show much tolerance for people who criticise the national team - yet we are quite average. We can compete in home conditions on a gven day against all teams apart from the Aussies - but these 'given days' are rare. We are an average team and need to accept this. The biggest worries though are : a) Our domestic cricket is extremely poor and has not been improved at all. b) The talent coming through is very very poor - I can't remember the last time we had such a poor group of reserves and where there is no good young talent.

I can really see Bangladesh overtaking us in a few years - they have better young players then we do. And you never hear from anyone on their board - because they are so well run. Our clowns make the news all the time.

Sadly, some people will refuse to accept the truth and take offence - but there you go. It's part of the pak mentality.

And I agree with Oxy - we were World Class in 1999 - since then - average.

[pak4life]

and the latest icc rankings do not lie. with india and aussies to come it does not look good


1 Australia
2 England
3 India
4 Sri Lanka
5 South Africa
6 New Zealand
7 Pakistan
8 West Indies
9 Bangladesh

[pak4life]

Pakistan loses ground in LG ICC Test Championship table

Brian Murgatroyd

October 12, 2007

Malik's men drop to seventh, below New Zealand; South Africa's series win sees it stay fifth but close in on India and Sri Lanka

Pakistan's 1-0 series loss to South Africa, confirmed thanks to the drawn Test in Lahore on Friday, has seen it drop one place in the latest LG ICC Test Championship table.

The defeat has cost Shoaib Malik's side three rating points and that has been enough to drop it below New Zealand and into seventh place in the updated ladder.

Pakistan had previously been on the same mark as the Black Caps - 99 points - but occupied the higher placing when the ratings were calculated to three decimal places.

Now, however, it trails New Zealand, although it is still well clear of the side directly below it, the West Indies, which lies eighth.

Pakistan's first chance to reverse its slide down the table - it occupied third position earlier this year - will come when it travels to India for three Tests as well as five ODIs in November and December, but India will have an incentive of its own to do well.

That is because South Africa's latest success on the sub-continent has seen it close the gap on the sides above it in the LG ICC Test Championship table and one of those sides is India.

South Africa's series win, which was due to a 160-run victory over the home side in the first Test in Karachi followed by the drawn match in Lahore, has seen it gain three ratings points.

And that means Graeme Smith's side is now just two points behind both third-placed India and Sri Lanka, like India on 107 rating points but placed fourth when those ratings are calculated to three decimal places.

South Africa's next opportunity to pile the pressure on those sides above it will come when it hosts New Zealand in a two-match series in November.

[12thMan]

Last time we were WORLD CLASS was probably in late 1990s?
That was also the time when we had the worst period at home matches ever. Lost 3-4 series straight but Paksitan team did better outside and I think also drew a series in SA.

[Saj]

As hard as it is to admit and even harder to put in writing, I would agree with the assessment that we are a long way away from being a good side in either version of the game. Previously I would put it down to inconsistency, I thought we had the players but were just damn inconsistent. However my opinion has changed to the fact that we are simply not good enough.

The players we are producing are either "disappearing" from the selectors radar or the ones that are given a chance are simply not up to it.

Its difficult to pinpoint where things are going wrong - perhaps the domestic cricket structure, perhaps the fact that very few of our players actually bother to play in our domestic cricket competitions, perhaps the lack of decent coaches in Pakistan.

One thing that has puzzled me for a while though is this "black hole", between our boys doing so well in Under 19 cricket and then disappeaaring off the face of the earth!

[161]

well i think we have always had the talent ... but lack of mental discipline always lets us down (by batsmen and bowlers alike).

[W63L35]

I agree with the point you are trying to make in your post.....yes, we are certainly not better Australia in general.......but the beauty of cricket is that...on a given day our team can perform like champion and beat any side in world....and even look like he best side to ever step on cricket field.

After all, we are not exactly world beaters in any department be it politics or science or medicine or for that matter any other sport. Why is this so hard to digest?
Just don't agree with your politics/science/medicine analogy here....if those things had ANY relations with sports then how would you explain Kenya's world beater marathon runners?

[Indiafan]

I know that this will cause a mini-riot and is sure to invite bigorty allegations but am posting it anyway. So here goes:

Most of the opinions of the jazbaati Pakistani fans are result-based. As long as they keep on winning, nobody seems to mind whether our players say bismillah or not, or grow beards or whatever. Even "pundits" like Osman Samiuddin write articles like "how religion has united them as a gel..."; but as soon as they start losing, suddenly it is because of the beard (or betting or some other excuse)!

The underlying assumption is that as a rule we are good enough to be world beaters and the fact that we are not can only be explained by something as simple as a beard or lack of concentration or a trip to a bar before the match.

My argument is: Can't we understand that maybe we are not good enough and the way we perform is symptomatic of our quality as a cricket team? After all, we are not exactly world beaters in any department be it politics or science or medicine or for that matter any other sport. Why is this so hard to digest? You can see the working of PCB and see for yourself. Afterall teams are made of people and the character (not moral character) of those people pretty much governs the quality of that team. We as a nation are producing small people (and hence small cricketers). If Zimbabwe or Bangladesh lose, everybody is satisfied because they are "not good enough in the first place". When we lose, suddenly there has to be a conspiracy theory (betting, or some other explanation, otherwise how can we lose?).

Isnt it a pretty immature and disgusting bahavior on the part of most of our cricket fan fraternity? And what does it result in? Disillusionment and anger over and over again. Lets be a little more mature and enjoy cricket as a game (understanding that better teams generally win and we are not one of the better teams by any stretch of imagination).

Having said that, I would like to qualify my argument a liitle. I feel that Pakistani fans take defeat much better than the Indians, in that although they are broken hearted after every loss, they atleast are men enough not to leave the stadium until the final ball is delivered (unlike Indian spectators). Then, they generally dont throw bottles when our team is losing (sometimes they do but unlike Indians, they dont have to be exelled from the stadium for the match to proceed in an empty stadium). So all is not lost but I feel we need to be a little more mature and realistic, for the sake of our own blood-pressures if not for the sportsmanspirit and all that sort of rot.

Another Pot shot at India :20: I remember fans emptying the stadium when Afridi gor out in a test match. At least Indians stay until a result is immenent! Also, just because of the behaviour of a bunch of hooligans you tarnish a whole country? :20: Apart from that good post :19: