Christmas - Celebrate it or not? (merged)

[Markhor]

No. And on a side note, Christmas is excessively commercialized and has become more of an atheist holiday than a Christian one. Santa Claus is more revered than Jesus for some. People are not aware of the religious connections and see the holiday period as a time for booze and partying.

[Lara400]

nah never shall I regard them as brothers, never. But that's only me.

The prophets uncle was a non musim. Some christians may well enter jannah, you may bump into them there.

We have a common belief that of god.

If anyone has a right to celebrate Isa pbuh then the muslims ought to, because he was a muslim.

[godzilla]

in the absence of an official canonical source or judgement by a widespreadly accepted scholar, ill offer my opinion - but stress its only an opinion.

none of us can judge who it is that God will elevate in the net world and who wont, and so i think its an imperative for muslims to emulate the prophetic attitude of adhab, compassion, neighbourliness and to set an example of excellence, to this extent, i think it appropriate to wish people celebrating, happiness and good health. i dont think its appropriate to set up a christmas tree at home, personally.

at the end of the day theres far more important things for us to expend our energy on, first and foremost in observing our prayersm regularly, completely and perfectly.

id also be wary of creating an impression that as a people we are fixated on minutiae rather than basic principle.

i would be very clear though, that there is no room for compromise. i dont view behaving in a way in which non-muslims will value ones compassion as contradicting any islamic principle, and under no circumstances should a fard be compromised.

[sawal]

thanks guys for ya help.

[zzebie]

no muslims should not celebrate christmas but neither should christians since it's a pagan festival. Christmas was actually banned in britain many years ago.

however if christians or anyone else feels this time of year is close and important for them then i have no issue wishing them best wishes and a happy celebration.

+1

[KingKhanWC]

nah never shall I regard them as brothers, never. But that's only me.

But you are more than happy to live amongst them?

[KingKhanWC]

The prophets uncle was a non musim. Some christians may well enter jannah, you may bump into them there.

We have a common belief that of god.

If anyone has a right to celebrate Isa pbuh then the muslims ought to, because he was a muslim.

Can you provide some evidence for this?

[Masterji]

I agree that christmas has become nothing more than a commercial holiday with very little religious meaning. I wish "christians" happy christmas because i see nothing wrong with that as it as friendly act. They also say Eid mubarak to me when its eid.

[Abdullah22]

But you are more than happy to live amongst them?

On what basis do you think I'm "more than happy" to live among them? Besides you are in no position to judge me on my current place of residence.

Also I don't think living among someone equals regarding them as brothers.

[Abdullah22]

Can you provide some evidence for this?

Though I'm not sure about meeting them in the Jannah part but I can think about this verse out of my head:

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, [] whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. - Surah Al-Baqra 2: 62

Anyway we should watch out that we don't get off topic here.

[James]

On what basis do you think I'm "more than happy" to live among them?

It was a fair assumption of another poster to make - if you are a Muslim and/or a decent human being then you have respect for your fellow man, whether he is a Muslim or non-Muslim.

[KingKhanWC]

On what basis do you think I'm "more than happy" to live among them? Besides you are in no position to judge me on my current place of residence.

Also I don't think living among someone equals regarding them as brothers.

I'm not judging you but found your comment strange.

I don't know about your personal circumstances but I would have thought if somebody felt the people they live amongst are not their brothers in humanity then the individual would get up and leave.

[SwingNSeam]

Though I'm not sure about meeting them in the Jannah part but I can think about this verse out of my head:

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, [] whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. - Surah Al-Baqra 2: 62

Anyway we should watch out that we don't get off topic here.

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/adOgXODsCxw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[KingKhanWC]

Though I'm not sure about meeting them in the Jannah part but I can think about this verse out of my head:

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, [] whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. - Surah Al-Baqra 2: 62

Anyway we should watch out that we don't get off topic here.

This verse is to do with those who were Jews, Christians and Sabians who then became Muslims.

It's illogical for Christians or Jews to convert to Islam if they can attain paradise by not doing so.

[Abdullah22]

It was a fair assumption of another poster to make - if you are a Muslim and/or a decent human being then you have respect for your fellow man, whether he is a Muslim or non-Muslim.

I don't have to regard the other person as my "brother" to respect him. I never said that I don't have respect for non-Muslims.

It's just that the word "brother" has a more personal meaning for me and I can't imagine using it for a non-Muslim who isn't blood wise related to me.

No need to look for hidden meanings.

[KingKhanWC]

It was a fair assumption of another poster to make - if you are a Muslim and/or a decent human being then you have respect for your fellow man, whether he is a Muslim or non-Muslim.

Totally correct. The Prophet(pbuh) invited Christians into his mosque and even invited them to perform their prayers within the mosque. He obviously didn't feel Christians are lesser people or shouldn't be respected as much, infact Christians are known as people of the book who should be given respect.

[James]

Not asking you to call anyone brother or not -

Weren't you asked whether or not you were happy to simply live alongside non-Muslims, and you responded with a firm ambivalence

That's why your reply looked odd

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I remember being disturbed many years ago when HT first started appearing on university campuses at their confrontational methods. I asked one of them if that was the right approach, why did muslims in the early days when meeting with non muslim leaders point out how Islam revered the Christian prophets? No answer of course, just some slogans to deflect the question.

Whether we should celebrate "Christmas" in it's current form might be right or wrong I don't know, but it seems for some people basic good manners isn't a part of their Islam which doesn't seem right to me.

[Abdullah22]

This verse is to do with those who were Jews, Christians and Sabians who then became Muslims.

It's illogical for Christians or Jews to convert to Islam if they can attain paradise by not doing so.

Well i'm not really a scholar and need to read tafseer to see what their views are about this verse. The verse just stayed in my head the last time I read it so thought I might share. BTW it says "those who are jews..." so I'm not really convinced by your view that it's for those who were Jews etc.

Anyway I need to look up tafseer to get a proper understanding and the context of this verse.

[DeadlyVenom]

"None of you [truely] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself."

I remember that when we were taught this hadith we were told that the brother meant everyone, regardless of religion.

[Abdullah22]

Not asking you to call anyone brother or not -

Weren't you asked whether or not you were happy to simply live alongside non-Muslims, and you responded with a firm ambivalence

That's why your reply looked odd

No I was asked about living among not alongside them and in my eyes their is difference between living among someone or alongside someone.

I prefer my homeland over every country but unfortunately for some personal reasons I have to temporally reside in a foreign country. Also me being not happy about my current residence has nothing to do with me living among non-Muslim.

[James]

This is what I have in the (celebrated) M.A.S Abdel Haleem translation:

'The [Muslim] believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians - all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good - will have their rewards with their Lord. No fear for them, nor will they grieve.' 2 : 62

It's certainly ambiguous with regards to some huge issues isn't it? Wouldn't mind a scholarly opinion from somebody, actually. Haleem's translation is heavily and superbly annotated but sadly does not expand on this passage.

[in_cutter]

So, what date was Isa (PBUH) born on?

[James]

No I was asked about living among not alongside them and in my eyes their is difference between living among someone or alongside someone.

I can see this distinction, but still can't understand why you'd hold such an attitude around other human beings, most of whom are probably decent. I am surely ignorant of important details or something, but anyway, it looked odd to me

I prefer my homeland over every country but unfortunately for some personal reasons I have to temporally reside in a foreign country. Also me being not happy about my current residence has nothing to do with me living among non-Muslim.

Fair

[GOAT]

Can you provide some evidence for this?

I believe it only applies to pre-'Islamic' periods, but those Christians were technically practising the true religion of Isa (PBUH) which would be Islam.

[DeadlyVenom]

As muslims, you can use this time of year to spread awareness about your religion. People ask me if I celebrate christmas all the time at work ( on accounts of my brown skin) and I take the time to explain Islams view on Isa (as). They are quite clueless of our beliefs.

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No I was asked about living among not alongside them and in my eyes their is difference between living among someone or alongside someone.

I prefer my homeland over every country but unfortunately for some personal reasons I have to temporally reside in a foreign country. Also me being not happy about my current residence has nothing to do with me living among non-Muslim.

If you were honest with yourself you would ask why it is you have to go to a non-muslim country as a temporary residence in the first place. This is quite a deep question though and when I raised a topic about whether a a muslim state should be retro or futuristic most fundamental muslims avoided it like the plague because they had no answers.

[Toony™®]

The season of modern christmas has american/european origins.

The church itself recognises christmas has not Jesus's birth as there are dates ranging from May to September/october. December 25th was chosen by the romans cos Jesus(pbuh) was alledged to be born in the spring equinox on the roman calender.

The church leaders of all denominations now use the day to spread the message of God rather than anything ie. love thy neigbour, family values good will etc.


As for muslims celebrating Christmas... it's what your intentions are and just go with flow and spread good will by reciprocating good will rather than anything in religious terms. Cos, the date is insignificant otherwise.

As to being a pagan holiday... christmas itself has never been a 'pagan' holiday but the date the pagans used to celebrate the coming of spring - a late winter festival. The first christian emperor reign the date was used to mark Jesus's(pbuh) birth.


I will not celebrate the date of christmas as religiously it has no significance. But, i will reciprocate the good will to all men philosphy!!

[KingKhanWC]

I believe it only applies to pre-'Islamic' periods, but those Christians were technically practising the true religion of Isa (PBUH) which would be Islam.

Cheers Goat.

I prefer my homeland over every country but unfortunately for some personal reasons I have to temporally reside in a foreign country. Also me being not happy about my current residence has nothing to do with me living among non-Muslim.

What reason is this?

[James]

With regards to religious festivities, it's always a good atmosphere in the retail trade during Eid celebrations. Muslims like coming into store, chatting to us and discussing their plans, and of course spending money! An example of British multiculturalism working very well for once :P People of all backgrounds also wish me a Merry Christmas around this time of year. Good and good-natured examples to follow here for all of us.

[violet_may]

Well, I well tell you one thing: I do not reject any gift items that I obtain from other people during this time of year. Matter of fact, I am eating a box of chocolate truffles right now, that a colleague at work gifted to me. :81:

[Looney]

Do Jinns and Muslim Jinns in particular celebrate christmas ?

[godzilla]

Well i'm not really a scholar and need to read tafseer to see what their views are about this verse. The verse just stayed in my head the last time I read it so thought I might share. BTW it says "those who are jews..." so I'm not really convinced by your view that it's for those who were Jews etc.

Anyway I need to look up tafseer to get a proper understanding and the context of this verse.

i was going to write exactly the same thing. i remember reading that vers and recall it in the same way.

i remember citing it at a talk in a debate about judging people, and the scholar present stated that his opinion (dont know if it was specifically about this verse or not) was that we cannot judge or assess whether someone will attain salvation or not.

for me, whether it refers to 'original' believers (and so 'muslim') or not, o think the point is its not our decision and so irrelevant. together with teh fact that the prophet was reported to behave with compassion and love (the story of his neighbour who threw rubbish at him every day) to everyone to me seems a precedent that we should use that as our default approach to everyone on the planet.

as a final point, we have no idea, even for those who believe that muslims alone will attain salvation, whether someone accepts it in their heart on their deathbed to an acceptable degree to God - so why risk putting anyone off?

[Down2Earth]

all my christian friends wish me an eid mubarak, i don't see why i can't do the same. i'm not "submitting" to anything.

anyway, for those celebrating christmas in the coming days, i hope you have a great day.

[Robert]

Who invented this date?
The Romans, centuries after the 'death' of Jesus (PBUH). Research the date of Christmas yourself to see the pagan roots of 25th December


25 December = Pagan Saturnalia. The Bible says Jesus was born in the spring. Constantine moved it to overwrite the pagan festival, but it didn't entirely work......

Christmas trees and holly, carol singing = Pagan

Santa Claus = Sinterklass = a Siberian shaman

Basically Christmas in the UK has gone back to what it was before the Romans Christianised it - a great big feast day in midwinter, in the cold and the dark, to keep our spirits up as the world starts to tilt back toward the Sun.

[Itachi]

I am hindu but i am celebrating with my christian friends.

I love celebrations. We have muslim, hindu, christian, buddhist in our dorm and we always celebrate together. We never force anyone but people come and wish.... Its all about respecting others.

[shahrukh619]

Christmas really has nothing to do with christianity, as jesus wasn't born on that day. Christmas is just like Halloween. You just celebrate it, nothing else, nothing religious.

All holidays arn't suppose to be religious. Same goes for Easter

[shokz1408]

Christmas is fun :) Lol, some of you take religion far too seriously :moyo

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Christmas is fun :) Lol, some of you take religion far too seriously :moyo

Exactly. It's not as if even the Christians treat it as a religious festival, it's just a big holiday.

[Gabbar Singh]

To those of you who don't celebrate Xmas, do you wish your friends and family a happy new year come Jan 1st?

And if so why, given the calendar we use is the Gregorian calendar or the Christian calendar?

[Equinox]

Don't celebrate it as a religious holiday but it is a day when everyone is forced to stay at home so mum cooks nice food, some close friends come over, have a good time together. Don't see anything wrong with it. As for wishing someone Merry Christmas I don't think twice about it. When I say it I mean hope you have nice time and enjoy yourselves. I am not submitting myself to anything. Also don't reject gifts and have given gifts to Christian friends and colleagues as well. It's just a nice gesture.

[akhrot]

message from OBL and Santa Claus' response

JQP2lhCuV-U

[cric_craze]

Would we even think about celebrating Diwali? then when it comes to Christmas, why do we think that it'll make us more civil or moderate by compromising our beliefs. Be proud of your Muslim identity, we respect their celebrations but we do not join in and celebrate what might be ignorant.

[Legal Eye]

Not sure what the issue is here.

It depends by what one means by "celebrate". Do I go to mass? No. Do I go to church? No.

Do I use the day the spend time with family, eat lots, have some turkey and watch nostalgic TV? Yes I do. And really, that is what Christmas is in the UK these days.

Do I celebrate as a Christian would? No. Do I get into the spirit like most of society does? Yes.

I do not see the point is not doing something just to show I am different

[Robert]

Exactly. It's not as if even the Christians treat it as a religious festival, it's just a big holiday.

The Christians treat it as their second most important religious festival, after Easter.

[Zaz]

The Christians treat it as their second most important religious festival, after Easter.

and what religious festivities get carried out by 99% of the uk population at christmas?

[Robert]

and what religious festivities get carried out by 99% of the uk population at christmas?

I don't take your point.

[chaiwala]

I don't celebrate it, but it is one of my favorite times of the year. Reminds me of my childhood.

[ammo]

lol lots of debating here putting up a tree and giving presents isn't really celebrating christmas it is taking advantage of christmas, the celebrating part is singing carols going to church service and stuff like that

[shaheen1shaheen2]

Though I'm not sure about meeting them in the Jannah part but I can think about this verse out of my head:

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, [] whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. - Surah Al-Baqra 2: 62

Anyway we should watch out that we don't get off topic here.

"The only deen (way of life) acceptable to allah is islam. TMQ 3:19

[Pahari]

depends on what you mean by celebrate. if it means going to church on christmas, no. but if it means getting into the festive spirit, there's no harm in that. christmas is awesome :)

[Waq]

Not sure what the issue is here.

It depends by what one means by "celebrate". Do I go to mass? No. Do I go to church? No.

Do I use the day the spend time with family, eat lots, have some turkey and watch nostalgic TV? Yes I do. And really, that is what Christmas is in the UK these days.

Do I celebrate as a Christian would? No. Do I get into the spirit like most of society does? Yes.

I do not see the point is not doing something just to show I am different

Good post.

I will be celebrating Christmas this year for the first time properly with my children. I even have a halal organic corn fed turkey on order! and I intend to give presents to the kids to open on Christmas day.

I am Muslim and do not believe that by doing so, I am taking allegiance with Christianity. I see Christmas as an excuse for family to get round the table and have fun.

In fact, winter in the UK would be very boring if you did not have Christmas lights/decorations, Santa's grottos and most importantly, the Eastenders Christmas day special!

Those who choose not to enjoy Christmas surely gain nothing but lose a lot?

[pakistanbest]

Waq where did you get that turkey from?

[Waq]

Waq where did you get that turkey from?

A halal farm in Oxfordshire but you have to collect it yourself.

Google willowbrook organic or willowbrook halal

The website does not explicitly advertise as halal but the owners are Muslim and spread the word through Muslim circles as they also supply to trade so I guess that suits them.

[cricfan4ever]

*** Request to all brothers & sisters in this thread to read this article ***

Islam And Christmas

by Umm Muhammad

Quite a number of Muslims today, especially those living in Christian dominated countries or those influenced to a large degree by western culture, have been led to consider that taking part in the Christmas celebrations of friends and relatives is, at very least, a harmless pastime if not a legitimate source of pleasure for children and adults alike.

In many instances, pressure to conform with the practices of society is too great for those of weak resolve to withstand. Parents are often tempted to give in to the pleading of children who have been invited to a party or who are unable to understand why they alone are being prevented from joining the festivities they observe all around them or why they cannot receive gifts on this occasion like the other children.

Indeed, the Christmas season has been aggressively promoted in every aspect of business, in schools, in every public place. High pressure sales tactics have invaded the home through television, radio, magazine and newspaper, captivating the imagination with every kind of attraction day and night for a month or more every year. Little wonder that many of those thus targeted so persistently succumb to temptation.

Among earlier generations, Christmas was an occasion which was still basically religious in orientation. Gifts, trees, decorations and feasting assumed lesser roles. But now all of this has changed. As noted in an American publication, Christmas has gone the way of many other aspects of society, becoming one more element in the mass culture which every season enables manufacturers and merchants to make millions of dollars through an elaborate system of gift exchange which comes more often from mutual expectations that "must" be fulfilled than from the heart.

The commonly accepted notion that happiness is derived largely from possessions and entertainment is the driving force behind the month-long preparations and festivities which continue on through the end of the year. This fact, although blameworthy in itself, has led many Muslims into the delusion that Christmas is no longer a religious occasion and therefore does not conflict with Islamic belief.

The materialistic atmosphere surrounding the celebration of Christmas is, in
reality, a manifestation of pagan culture (Jaahiliyyah) at its worst. It can only be seen by the conscious Muslim believer as a rat-race designed and implemented by Shaytaan to accomplish a great waste of time, effort, money and resources while countless families barely subsist in a state of poverty throughout many areas of the world.

In addition to the commercial side of Christmas, although less obvious to the casual observer, are certain religious aspects to be noted. The celebration was and still is intended by practicing Christians as a remembrance of the birth of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) who is considered by many of them as God incarnate or the second person in a trinity, and thus they celebrate the birth of "divinity." The word itself is an abbreviated form of "Christ Mass," i.e., sacrament in commemoration of Christ. Although taken by Christians to be the birthday of Jesus, the actual date of celebration, December 25th, cannot be traced back any further than the fourth century after Christ. Ironically, this day is also considered
to be the birthday of the Hindu god, Krishna, as well as Mithra, the Greek god of light. It also coincides with the annual Tree Festival which had long been celebrated in Northern Europe before the Christian era and which has been recently revived in some Arab countries in an attempt to encourage celebration by disguising the religious significance of the day.

The Christmas tree is the most obvious aspect of that pagan celebration which was incorporated along with its date of observance, December 25th, into church rites. The evergreen tree, because it keeps its green needles throughout the winter months, was believed by pre-Christian pagans to have special powers of protection against the forces of nature and evil spirits. The end of December marked the onset of a visible lengthening of daylight hours - the return of warmth and light and defeat of those evil forces of cold and darkness. At a particular stage of its development, the church is known to have adopted certain of the popular pagan practices into Christianity for political or social reasons.

Thus, in more aspects than one, the holiday is deeply rooted in the worship of different forms of creation rather than the Creator Himself. A Muslim cannot possibly approve of such beliefs or the practices which stem from them. Anyone with a minimal knowledge of Islam would surely reject kufr (disbelief) and shirk (association of partners with Allaah) in every form. Only through ignorance or unawareness could one continue to participate in activities that reflect the acceptance of both. Muslims must be firm in refusal of all which is contrary to the concept of "Laa ilaaha illallaaha (there is none deserving of subservience except Allaah alone)."

Consideration for others is well and good on the condition that Islamic principles are not compromised. Allah (subhaanahu wa ta’aalaa)
says:

“If you obey most of those upon the earth, they will lead you away from the way of Allaah.” [An’aam 6:116]

And He commands:
“Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow any patrons other than Him.” [A’raaf 7:3]

Although some, in all honesty, admit their weakness in the face of continual social pressure, others defend their participation by the strange assertion that they observe the occasion through regard for Jesus ('Isa), a prophet of Islam. If such an observance, with its semblance of Islamic atmosphere, is invalid for Prophet Muhammad, (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) how then can it reasonably be valid for other prophets who neither observed nor encouraged such practices, which were later devised by those who abandoned prophetic teachings for their own inclinations and preferences?

“Have you seen him who take as his god his own desire, and Allah
has left him astray through knowledge.” [Jaathiyah 45:23]

Again, the Muslim is reminded of the hadiths in which the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) warned against imitating the non-believers and encouraged distinguishing oneself from them in dress and manner.

Whether taken from the materialistic or the religious standpoint, Christmas can have no place in the Muslim's heart nor in his home.

Any Muslim, young or old, who has a secure place in an Islamic community or group which has regular activities and affords companionship will find little difficulty in rejecting that which is harmful to himself and his family, in spite of the apparent attractions. In some societies, refusal and resistance may require actual jihad, but those who seek the acceptance of Allah and fear Him will undertake the task with knowledge that they are striving for salvation and will thus be firm and resolute. For Allah (subhaanahu wa ta'aalaa) calls to believers,saying:

“O you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is men and stones.” [Tahreem 66: 6]

And in the avoidance of Hellfire lies Paradise.

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5173

[Pahari]

^tl;dr
i don't celebrate christmas as the birth of Isa (AS), it's more of a seasonal thing. don't understand why peolpe get their knickers in a twist about this. Farsi people celebrate Nowruz (spring celebration) and no one bit**** about that (i personally know of iranians who celebrate thanksgiving and nowruz more than the actual eids).

[Waq]

Cricfan4ever - I will get to the point straightaway. You are clearly a young person, that is not to say that your views are not valid but are somewhat immature.

As you get older, you are likely to mellow down and see things for what they are. You seriously think that it is jahil to celebrate Christmas and spend quality time with family? Would you rather we all turn off the TV and stay miserable on that day?

Christmas day is just a meal for me with fun. Is it that hard to understand?

Apologies for being a bit harsh but I have seen far too many young Muslims with unsubstantiated views who normally change with time.

[Robert]

The materialistic atmosphere surrounding the celebration of Christmas is, in
reality, a manifestation of pagan culture (Jaahiliyyah) at its worst. It can only be seen by the conscious Muslim believer as a rat-race designed and implemented by Shaytaan to accomplish a great waste of time, effort, money and resources while countless families barely subsist in a state of poverty throughout many areas of the world.


Or,

A time of happiness and sharing when we are reminded to be good to each other. How can that be of the Devil?

[shaheen1shaheen2]

Extremist website, no value in source

See you've done it again,another worthless inaccurate statement,there is no extremist,moderate,jihadi in Islam, a muslim is a muslim. These labels are made up by the kuffar to divide the muslims and people like you keep falling into their trap.

[Waq]

See you've done it again,another worthless inaccurate statement,there is no extremist,moderate,jihadi in Islam, a muslim is a muslim. These labels are made up by the kuffar to divide the muslims and people like you keep falling into their trap.

Extremist is not a label that we had received by the so called 'kuffar' but a label of our own doing by politicising Islam.

What is actually wrong with having a meal with family on Christmas day?

My suggestion to you is listen more to your parents and not the brotherhood.

[cricfan4ever]

Cricfan4ever - I will get to the point straightaway. You are clearly a young person, that is not to say that your views are not valid but are somewhat immature.

As you get older, you are likely to mellow down and see things for what they are. You seriously think that it is jahil to celebrate Christmas and spend quality time with family? Would you rather we all turn off the TV and stay miserable on that day?

Christmas day is just a meal for me with fun. Is it that hard to understand?

Apologies for being a bit harsh but I have seen far too many young Muslims with unsubstantiated views who normally change with time.

It is refuted by Hadiths as well:

"Whosoever does an action and it is not from our matter (Deen) then it is rejected" - [Muslim]

"Whosoever introduces into this religion of ours that which is not part of it then it must be rejected." - [Ahmad]

Scholarly view: "And in this hadith is clear evidence that every action which is not legislated in the Sharee'ah (Islamic law) must be rejected." [Jamia al-Usool 1/120 of Ibn Rajab, the eighth century Hanbali scholar well-known for his extensive knowledge and great piety.]

how the hell is that being immature when it is clear beyond shadow of a doubt that celebrating Christmas or wishing Merry Christmas is forbidden??? what more proof do you want? :facepalm:

contrary to what you said about my post, your post sounds irrational and far removed from reality...

young or old, the commands of our Deen stand !!!

[cricfan4ever]

Or,

A time of happiness and sharing when we are reminded to be good to each other. How can that be of the Devil?

the article looks at the big picture and ground reality of Christmas in the modern world...

[Waq]

It is refuted by Hadiths as well:

"Whosoever does an action and it is not from our matter (Deen) then it is rejected" - [Muslim]

"Whosoever introduces into this religion of ours that which is not part of it then it must be rejected." - [Ahmad]

Scholarly view: "And in this hadith is clear evidence that every action which is not legislated in the Sharee'ah (Islamic law) must be rejected." [Jamia al-Usool 1/120 of Ibn Rajab, the eighth century Hanbali scholar well-known for his extensive knowledge and great piety.]

how the hell is that being immature when it is clear beyond shadow of a doubt that celebrating Christmas or wishing Merry Christmas is forbidden??? what more proof do you want? :facepalm:

contrary to what you said about my post, your post sounds irrational and far removed from reality...

young or old, the commands of our Deen stand !!!

This quote has clearly been twisted to support yours and your party means.

How am I introducing something new into my religion? I am merely having a meal with family and spending time with them. Does the quote specifically mention Santa or do you just believe it?

Islam and debates cannot be defined from one quote from the Quran or Hadith. I am sure that that there are also quotes on respecting peoples faiths and partaking in your neighbours celebrations and joy.

[cricfan4ever]

This quote has clearly been twisted to support yours and your party means.

How am I introducing something new into my religion? I am merely having a meal with family and spending time with them. Does the quote specifically mention Santa or do you just believe it?

Islam and debates cannot be defined from one quote from the Quran or Hadith. I am sure that that there are also quotes on respecting peoples faiths and partaking in your neighbours celebrations and joy.

celebrating Christmas in the form of having a meal with your family etc. falls under actions, and actions are prohibited until permitted by Shari'ah and this action is driven by the occasion for which there is no allowance in the Shari'ah neither any evidence in the lifetime of Prophet (saw) and falls under Aqeedah matters...

these hadiths are not twisted, I provided you with a Scholar's commentary on it not mine...

just spend the day like any other day, what is this fixation with having a meal or whatever?

anyways, I said what I had to!

[Legal Eye]

We must all fast and not eat on christmas day folks!

[Robert]

the article looks at the big picture and ground reality of Christmas in the modern world...

....a world in which Christians give charitably to those who are in need, and especially at Christmas.

I love the cheery lights, the way everything starts to slow down on Christmas Eve, the time spent with family, the way people act a bit more generously, the happy smiles on the faces of the children.

IMO Christmas is something incredibly, beautifully GOOD!

[Namak_Halaal]

I love xmas! I love setting up the tree at home, the decorations, the community spirit, dinners and lunches, buying gifts for my kids, but more importantly, I love xmas because of the EastEnders Xmas special! (Used to be Only Fools and Horses).

There's no escaping Xmas in England, especially if you have children in Primary school. When I am asked about xmas, I simply elaborate on Jesus.

PS: No Xmas is complete without snow.

[Namak_Halaal]

....a world in which Christians give charitably to those who are in need, and especially at Christmas.

I love the cheery lights, the way everything starts to slow down on Christmas Eve, the time spent with family, the way people act a bit more generously, the happy smiles on the faces of the children.

IMO Christmas is something incredibly, beautifully GOOD!

No xmas in my house is complete without a trek to Regent/Oxford/Bond Street to see the lights (shopping). I go further by dissecting London in a car at around midnight. It’s the only way to absorb London by night and discover London's subliminal glory.

Like you say, beautiful.

[Namak_Halaal]

To all those who claim we should not celebrate xmas because it stems from a pagan festival, let me pass a thought, the Kaa'ba housed over 300 idols but now is the home of Islam.

[James]

Blimey, there are some absolute nutters on this forum.

[Zaz]

Listen, i see no reason why we shouldnt (within reason) socialise around the christmas period

It doesnt mean because you partake in a few festivities like exchanging cards/gifts etc you believe hazrat isa is the son of god etc

Its just a excuse to be merry, sociable and something to look forward to in winter when it can become pretty depressing and miserable

[shaheen1shaheen2]

Blimey, there are some absolute nutters on this forum.

That's right there are some absolute nutters here ,the ones who claim to be muslim but then take part in kufr celebrations and attempt to justify it even though there is no justification from quran and sunnah for this."extremist" is the word that comes to mind for these people

[ShaazE]

What's wrong with celebrating European Jesus' birthday?

[Ryankhan]

I dont think you should celebrate it in your home becoz simply you aint one of them. your a muslim so no but if your friend is a christian or anyone else in that matter who you know so you should wish them as a good gesture and if your invited in one of their parties then you should go and avoid the drinks, if you know what i mean ;) just have soda or jucie and have a good time thats it. you dont need to celebrate it. its better to tell your kids about your own festivals rather then making them know about other festivals which dont really mean anything to us.

[Robert]

That's right there are some absolute nutters here ,the ones who claim to be muslim but then take part in kufr celebrations and attempt to justify it even though there is no justification from quran and sunnah for this."extremist" is the word that comes to mind for these people

The words 'pluralist', 'flexible', and 'open-minded' spring to mine.

[chaiwala]

Would we even think about celebrating Diwali? then when it comes to Christmas, why do we think that it'll make us more civil or moderate by compromising our beliefs. Be proud of your Muslim identity, we respect their celebrations but we do not join in and celebrate what might be ignorant.

Many Indian Muslims celebrate Diwali non-religiously. It's fun. :yk

[KingKhanWC]

To all those who claim we should not celebrate xmas because it stems from a pagan festival, let me pass a thought, the Kaa'ba housed over 300 idols but now is the home of Islam.

The Kaaba was cleaned of idols, Muslims were told to pray to Jerusalum until then.

[QuarterBack]

Merry Christmas folk! :)

Have a great time with family and friends!

[chaiwala]

Merry Christmas folk! :)

Have a great time with family and friends!

And make sure to watch Home Alone, A Christmas Story, and A Christmas Carol (the old version) to get into the mood. Also, don't forget to listen to lots of Christmas music too! :yk

[QuarterBack]

And make sure to watch Home Alone, A Christmas Story, and A Christmas Carol (the old version) to get into the mood. Also, don't forget to listen to lots of Christmas music too! :yk

Thats been playing at work all week. Not to mention the various Yankee Swaps and Cookie Contests!!! :akhtar

[KingKhanWC]

The quetion in the OP was..

Are we wrong as Muslims to "partially celebrate" Christmas and give our children presents and put up a Christmas tree in our house

Some people are just stating what they do, that's all well and good but it doesn't address the topic.

Anyone who thinks is fine to celebrate Christmas according to Islam need to provide some evidence. Bringing the festivities into your home is celebrating it, most people don't go to church or pray on Christmas day in the UK.

I personally not one to follow the crowd and only do things if I feel they are correct for me to do. Eating Turkey on a specific day, putting a tree(which should be in the garden) in my house and buying my family presents for a specific day makes no logical sense to me. I'll get involved in things at work or with friends who do celebrate Christmas but don't really want to take such pagan rituals inside my house. A Christmas tree sitting under my Islamic art would make my house look ugly if not making me look like a hypcorite.

[Looney]

Fine if you do it for the gifts :fawad

[90MPH]

Christmas for me means like many others have already said - Spending time with your family, eating nice food, visiting friends and family and giving some gifts to the younger children in my family. Thats all it is, having some good fun and lifting up your spirits.

[shaheen1shaheen2]

The words 'pluralist', 'flexible', and 'open-minded' spring to mine.

These guys are not pluralist,flexible or open minded they're actually narrow minded they believe what they are saying is right according to Islam and when you explain to them with evidence from quran and sunnah that they are wrong they are not willing to accept it,that's not flexible or open minded so I dont know how you worked that out.

[chaiwala]

they believe what they are saying is right according to Islam and when you explain to them with evidence from quran and sunnah that they are wrong they are not willing to accept it

That sounds just like you, honestly.

[Looney]

Christmas for me means like many others have already said - Spending time with your family, eating nice food, visiting friends and family and giving some gifts to the younger children in my family. Thats all it is, having some good fun and lifting up your spirits.

that is how it all begins . next you will go to the church . :moyo

[shaheen1shaheen2]

That sounds just like you, honestly.

What you mean someone has explained to me with evidence from quran and sunnah that I am wrong and I refused to accept it?
Show me where my friend,and then have a look at how many times i've showed these guys with evidence from quran and sunnah that they are wrong but still they refuse to accept it?
If you have a look at my posts you will actually see that if someone tells me something I dont know I will put my hands up and accept that I never knew this and that I was wrong,thats openminded.

[Robert]

These guys are not pluralist,flexible or open minded they're actually narrow minded they believe what they are saying is right according to Islam and when you explain to them with evidence from quran and sunnah that they are wrong they are not willing to accept it,that's not flexible or open minded so I dont know how you worked that out.

Because you are focussing right in on detail, whereas I'm standing a lot further back, so I (and they) can see more of the overall picture of life than you do at present.

[James]

That sounds just like you, honestly.

This

[SAF]

No IMO Muslim shouldn't even celebrate the birth day of Prophet Muhammad or their own birth day.

chalo ji, welcome to PPFatwas.net

[SAF]

How can Christians be our brother?

Why cant they be our brothers?

[zid60]

Don't celebrate ofcourse but there's no harm in wishing some one a good christmas and enjoying the movies on tv and sales during this period :D

[Legal Eye]

I think most of the people on here who bang on about doing nothing for Xmas actually do family stuff on the day. However, the keyboard warriors that they are just crave attention and so seek to be controversial

[shaheen1shaheen2]

Because you are focussing right in on detail, whereas I'm standing a lot further back, so I (and they) can see more of the overall picture of life than you do at present.

That reply had nothing to do whatsoever with my post that you were replying to :facepalm:
Where did you learn how to do that from tony blair? when unable to answer just talk some waffle to sound like you know what your talking about.
If I tell someone what they said is wrong by providing them with proof from quran and sunnah but they still do not accept it that makes them openminded? In the post that you replied to I asked you how you worked that out but instead of answering that you wrote this reply that mr alistair campbell and mr tony blair would have been proud of.

[shaheen1shaheen2]

This

That

[90MPH]

that is how it all begins . next you will go to the church . :moyo

Ha ha, ern no that will never happen.

[Looney]

Ha ha, ern no that will never happen.

is that a prediction of the future ? :danish

[zid60]

Blimey, there are some absolute nutters on this forum.

lol, very true :zaka:afridi:ibutt

[Shaheerthe2nd]

That's right there are some absolute nutters here ,the ones who claim to be muslim but then take part in kufr celebrations and attempt to justify it even though there is no justification from quran and sunnah for this."extremist" is the word that comes to mind for these people
Actually, its quite the opposite.

[cricfan4ever]

***Found these brilliant extracts through a Youtube clip which is totally relevant to this thread in terms of evidence against celebration of Christmas for Muslims ***

The Real Shaykh al-Islaam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his book Iqtidaa' al-siraat al-mustaqeem mukhaalifat ashaab al-jaheem:
"Imitating them (the disbelievers) in some of their festivals implies that one is pleased with their false beliefs and practices, and gives them the hope that they may have the opportunity to humiliate and mislead the weak."

Ibn al-Qayyim, (may Allaah have mercy on him), said in Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah: "Congratulating the kuffaar on the rituals that belong only to them is haraam by consensus, as is congratulating them on their festivals and fasts by saying 'A happy festival to you' or 'May you enjoy your festival,' and so on. If the one who says this has been saved from kufr, it is still forbidden. It is like congratulating someone for prostrating to the cross, or even worse than that. It is as great a sin as congratulating someone for drinking wine, or murdering someone, or having illicit sexual relations, and so on. Many of those who have no respect for their religion fall into this error; they do not realize the offensiveness of their actions. Whoever congratulates a person for his disobedience or bid'ah or kufr exposes himself to the wrath and anger of Allaah."

These statements provide a very strong case for refraining in participating in festivities and wishing of a particular festival that is not part of Islam!

[Legal Eye]

Just two sleeps left until I can open my presents and look forward to turkey with trimmings. Also been invited for a turkey lunch on boxing day!

[James]

Just two sleeps left until I can open my presents and look forward to turkey with trimmings. Also been invited for a turkey lunch on boxing day!

Are you also looking forward to roasting on an open hellfire? :P

[ahsan88]

Is it 'ok' to wish some a Merry Christmas?

[Warfare]

Is it 'ok' to wish some a Merry Christmas?

If you don't mind suffering in eternal hellfire, sure. :Shaheen1shaheen2 :cricfan4ever

[shahrukh619]

Merry Christmas everyone

and happy boxing day to all brown ppl :)

[ahsan88]

If you don't mind suffering in eternal hellfire, sure. :Shaheen1shaheen2 :cricfan4ever

I think i have had my share of kufar fatwas already. ;)

[pakistani_banda]

MzFv_TdFvzM

[cricfan4ever]

Is it 'ok' to wish some a Merry Christmas?

read my earlier posts on the previous and this page...

to answer your question simply, NO!

[cricfan4ever]

If you don't mind suffering in eternal hellfire, sure. :Shaheen1shaheen2 :cricfan4ever

:facepalm:

before posting with ignorance, take the time to read what I had posted, if you had read, you wouldn't have made such an asinine post...

[WiiiCKET]

Wishing might be ok, But participating is completely wrong. Ever saw a non-Muslim giving money to kids on Eid or sacrificing animal on this day.

[cricfan4ever]

Wishing might be ok, But participating is completely wrong. Ever saw a non-Muslim giving money to kids on Eid or sacrificing animal on this day.

even wishing is haram brother...

[Robert]

That reply had nothing to do whatsoever with my post that you were replying to :facepalm:
Where did you learn how to do that from tony blair? when unable to answer just talk some waffle to sound like you know what your talking about.
If I tell someone what they said is wrong by providing them with proof from quran and sunnah but they still do not accept it that makes them openminded? In the post that you replied to I asked you how you worked that out but instead of answering that you wrote this reply that mr alistair campbell and mr tony blair would have been proud of.

Because they have life experience and are therefore able to tell what is bad and what is good on the basis of that, rather than having to look it up in a rule book like you do.

BTW, thank you for comparing me to two brilliant communicators! I wish you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

[Momo]

Because they have life experience and are therefore able to tell what is bad and what is good on the basis of that, rather than having to look it up in a rule book like you do.

BTW, thank you for comparing me to two brilliant communicators! I wish you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
:))) :)))

Good shot, sir!

[Looney]

Merry Christmas all

[chaiwala]

Happy Holidays everyone!

[smoothcriminal]

Geo news was just showing live footage of Christmas mass at the Vatican, and that made me smile. Long live religious pluralism in Pakistan =)

[Awesome_Username]

Merry Christmas all

Muslim Hell awaits you :moyo

Happy Holidays everyone!

Christian Hell awaits you :wg

[Momo]

Muslim Hell awaits you :moyo
You forgot the Jewish Hell. :asif

[Looney]

Muslim Hell awaits you :moyo



Christian Hell awaits you :wg

what if i am an atheist and do not believe in the hell or heaven concept . will i still go to hell ? :manzoor

[chaiwala]

Christian Hell awaits you :wg

Silly you, don't you know that I'm going to Atheist Heaven after I die?

[James]

read my earlier posts on the previous and this page...

to answer your question simply, NO!

LOL...so immature, narrow-minded and socially inept

You do realise if you work with the public and are wished season's greetings, blanking them or getting a stress on can get you sacked for plain rudeness. Join the rest of us in the real world

[Awesome_Username]

You forgot the Jewish Hell. :asif

Muslim heaven/hell and Christian heaven/hell are just room categories within Jewish Hell. Everyone knows this. :ibutt

what if i am an atheist and do not believe in the hell or heaven concept . will i still go to hell ? :manzoor

You will be sent to a special area where both the general hell areas overlap. Twice the fun! On a positive note, you'll get to meet :zardari.

Silly you, don't you know that I'm going to Atheist Heaven after I die?

You just know that Christopher Hitchens and Bill Maher are eventually (eternal abode and everything, remember?) going to get into a fight. Believe me - you'll want to get the hell (pardon the pun) out of there. And guess who'll be waiting right next door? :16:

[shaheen1shaheen2]

this shaheen1shaheen2 guy is one big extremist.

i remember another thread where he was arguing that islam is not a peaceful religion and force should be used against anyone who does not agree with it.

and then there was another thread where he was instructing a poster on how he could possible commit fraud and end up not paying a fien for over speeding :)))

A muslim is a muslim there is no extremist or moderate in Islam these labels are made by the kuffar to cause divisions within the muslims and people like you fall for it.
Before writing libellous stuff about me go and read up those threads and show me where I said to use force against anyone who does not agree with Islam? You wont be able to because I said no such thing what I did say is that we fight anyone who insults allah or his messenger otherwise we are peaceful with those who are peaceful with us.
You've also said I've instructed another poster how he could commit fraud, where,show me?
You are in no position to be saying libellous things about me when you had a signature inciting people to kill pathans that is a criminal offence and I dont know how you got away with having that as your signature for so long?
I dont understand why racists like you who hate pathans (I'm not a pathan by the way) have not been banned and are still free to post nonsense comments like you just did now

[IgnitedMind]

Wishing might be ok, But participating is completely wrong. Ever saw a non-Muslim giving money to kids on Eid or sacrificing animal on this day.

I did. Growing up I celebrated all the festivals..actually most kids in India too..taught in school. It is a national holiday for us..
So Dont generalize!! No harm in celebrating with others..

[IgnitedMind]

Actually suprised there is such a huge discussion on this by "educated " people!!! If god hates you or punishes you or sends you to hell because you celebrated a festival with people of other faith....well...he is no god after all then!!!!!

[Assassin7]

Guys was reading an article today and found this :

"When you are wishing someone Merry Christmas,without you realize, you are agreeing that God has a son and he was born on 25th December. Astagfirullah. Saying God has a children is a Shirk(the greatest sin in Islam), as Allah says in the Quran: "Allah begets not, nor was He begotten" [112: 3]"

Now as a Muslim, personally I think its harmless to say Merry Christmas to a friend or neighbour. Am i wrong and what are your views?
Im going to play it safe and wish you all Seasons Greetings :fawad

[Warfare]

:facepalm:

before posting with ignorance, take the time to read what I had posted, if you had read, you wouldn't have made such an asinine post...

I read it and got bored. Personally, listening to Mullahs is not my thang.

Now if you excuse me, I gotta get ready to celebrate with the Kuffar tomorrow.

Merry Christmas and have a happy new year. If you don't like my post then I will laugh. :yk

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/DealWithIt/bettywhitedealwithit.gif

[Shaheerthe2nd]

A muslim is a muslim there is no extremist or moderate in Islam these labels are made by the kuffar to cause divisions within the muslims and people like you fall for it.
Before writing libellous stuff about me go and read up those threads and show me where I said to use force against anyone who does not agree with Islam? You wont be able to because I said no such thing what I did say is that we fight anyone who insults allah or his messenger otherwise we are peaceful with those who are peaceful with us.
You've also said I've instructed another poster how he could commit fraud, where,show me?
You are in no position to be saying libellous things about me when you had a signature inciting people to kill pathans that is a criminal offence and I dont know how you got away with having that as your signature for so long?
I dont understand why racists like you who hate pathans (I'm not a pathan by the way) have not been banned and are still free to post nonsense comments like you just did now
IMO, there will always be people who will take Islam too far. That you cannot deny.

But anyhow, that is a discussion for a different debate.


I hope everyone is enjoying the holidays!

[cricfan4ever]

I read it and got bored. Personally, listening to Mullahs is not my thang.

Now if you excuse me, I gotta get ready to celebrate with the Kuffar tomorrow.

Merry Christmas and have a happy new year. If you don't like my post then I will laugh. :yk

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/DealWithIt/bettywhitedealwithit.gif

:facepalm:

yet another foolish post...is that what you are going to say to Allah (swt) on Judgement Day? listening to 'Mullahs' was not my 'thang' ???

and for your information, I did not quote 'Mullahs' I quoted Scholars of Islam :facepalm:

anyway, can't expect sensibility from jokers...may Allah (swt) guide you

[DeadlyVenom]

No harm saying Merry Christmas and wishing people a good time. I wonder why people like to make things so difficult for themselves and others?

[Warfare]

:facepalm:

yet another foolish post...is that what you are going to say to Allah (swt) on Judgement Day? listening to 'Mullahs' was not my 'thang' ???

and for your information, I did not quote 'Mullahs' I quoted Scholars of Islam :facepalm:

anyway, can't expect sensibility from jokers...may Allah (swt) guide you

Let me reiterate my point: Listening to "Scholars of Islam" and Mullahs is not my thang. It seems I disagree with them 99% of the time. :yk

And bro you're ruining my preparations for the big celebration with the Kuffar tomorrow. :fawad

Do you know where I can get a cheap turkey from?

[Gabbar Singh]

http://insaf.pk/Media/Videos/tabid/62/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/9192/Imran-Khans-message-for-Christians-and-Minorities.aspx

Merry Christmas, from Imran Khan!

[cricfan4ever]

Let me reiterate my point: Listening to "Scholars of Islam" and Mullahs is not my thang. It seems I disagree with them 99% of the time. :yk

And bro you're ruining my preparations for the big celebration with the Kuffar tomorrow. :fawad

Do you know where I can get a cheap turkey from?

so you know more than they do? :facepalm:

when there is clear evidence you have no option to believe otherwise...and I haven't even quoted from Hadiths from Rasul (saw) but seeing your responses it would be futile since you are so set on current view...

and no I do not know where you can get a cheap turkey from and neither do I care...

[cricfan4ever]

No harm saying Merry Christmas and wishing people a good time. I wonder why people like to make things so difficult for themselves and others?

contrary to what you said, it is you guys who are making it difficult for themselves even though clear evidence is posted...

[chaiwala]

^Why are you getting so worked up over other people committing what you consider haram? You've had your say, let them decide for themselves.

[cricfan4ever]

^Why are you getting so worked up over other people committing what you consider haram? You've had your say, let them decide for themselves.

because it is our business as Muslims to do so, especially when it has something to do with a sin God will not forgive...

[chaiwala]

because it is our business as Muslims to do so, especially when it has something to do with a sin God will not forgive...

I think you've more than exceeded your "business" in this thread. At a certain level, people will have to make decisions for themselves. There is no way you can control that.

[DeadlyVenom]

contrary to what you said, it is you guys who are making it difficult for themselves even though clear evidence is posted...

I don't celebrate Christmas at all, its just a normal day for me (awesome) but if some colleague or neighbour is celebrating then there is seriously nothing wrong with wishing him a good day.

To atheists I know I just give them good wishes, when I encounter practicing christians I wish them a good time and explain a little bit about our view on Jesus.

And no, you haven't shown any clear evidence.

[shaheen1shaheen2]

Because they have life experience and are therefore able to tell what is bad and what is good on the basis of that, rather than having to look it up in a rule book like you do.

BTW, thank you for comparing me to two brilliant communicators! I wish you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

See thats the viewpoint of a layman who is not muslim and does not know a thing about Islam.
Someone who is a muslim must believe that the quran is the unaltered word of god so if god has forbidden something and someone does that thing without knowing it is forbidden but then someone informs them that it is forbidden but they still stubbornly refuse to accept it because they have "life experiences and are therefore able to tell what is bad and what is good"they are openminded and flexible for disobeying their lord?
My friend just let it go because your obviously out of your depth here.
It's better you stay in your home on your "openminded and flexible" internet and let real men deal with real world problems while you use your "life experiences" to tell "what is good and what is bad" on bbc.co.uk.
Hahahahahahahaha.
Those two brilliant commentators you are happy at being compared to are both liars and are a laughing stock in the international community and mr tony blair because of his lies is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people including women and children.He is a terrorist and a war criminal and if your happy to be compared to people like him then that shows what kind of a person you are.

[ammo]

lol you have to be a little leinient, you cant be too strict over religion in my opinion we all need to losen our grips on religion only then can we get rid of racism and all live in peace and unity.
Merry Christmas

[Liberty]

I believe the followers of Christianity believe in the holy trinity and the bodily resurrection of Christ and I assume, partially, a portion of the ethics he stood for, correct? I don't believe in the basic core values of this religious so why would I celebrate some pagan holiday.


I'm glad people have your own benign version of religion that they cling to. That's all well and good but I wont be singing hallelujah any time soon.

[shaheen1shaheen2]

IMO, there will always be people who will take Islam too far. That you cannot deny.

But anyhow, that is a discussion for a different debate.


I hope everyone is enjoying the holidays!

Yes I can deny that, how can someone take Islam too far,explain that to me because like I said a muslim is a muslim there is no extremist,moderate,jihadi in Islam.
My advice to you guys would be to not use these labels that the kuffar have made as they are an attempt to divide us even more than we are already divided,and stay away from quilliam foundation and majid nawaz and ed husain as these people are apostates and you will end up with a corrupted mind like a certain poster on pp who is a supporter of these people.

[Javelin]

Nowadays, hardly anyone, including the vast majority of Christians in the West, regard Xmas as being a religious event anymore, just as Xmas trees, roast turkey and Santa Clause has nothing to do with the 'birthday' of Prophet Isa (Jesus to Christians) - I'm sure his parents, or their friends and relatives, did not do so when he was born !

So for anyone to claim that Muslims are somehow committing a sin by celebrating on the 25th December, or by having trees in the home with decorations on and eating turkey on that day, and wishing their fellow man a joyful and happy time (irregardless of the specific words used), are being totally ignorant of the purpose of Islam.

Wishing you all Seasons Greetings and a Happy New Year.

[cricfan4ever]

I don't celebrate Christmas at all, its just a normal day for me (awesome) but if some colleague or neighbour is celebrating then there is seriously nothing wrong with wishing him a good day.

To atheists I know I just give them good wishes, when I encounter practicing christians I wish them a good time and explain a little bit about our view on Jesus.

And no, you haven't shown any clear evidence.

I posted an article with Qur'anic Ayahs which is enough evidence... As I said in a post earlier, there are Hadiths which also forbid us from taking part in non-Muslim Celebration...for your convenience here are some below...

Prophet (saw) said: "He is not one of us who imitates other than us. Do not imitate the Jews or the Christians."

Al- Bukhari narrated in his Sahih that Abu Saeed Al-Khudri (ra) reported that Allah's Messenger (saw) said,"You will indeed follow the ways of those before you, hand span by hand span, and cubit by cubit even if they were to enter into a lizards hole, you will follow them." We asked 'is it the Jews and the Christians?' He (saw) replied, "Who else!"

Prophet (saw) also said; "Whoever brings something that is not from our affair, it is rejected." [Bukhari]

So going by this alone, it is clear that we shouldn't participate in Christmas or any other celebration...With that said I do support you on explaining Islamic view of Jesus (as), that is about the only thing we should do...call them to the truth, rest is upto Allah (swt) :)

[DeadlyVenom]

Thats fine, I agree with you on that, I don't celebrate christmas at all but I disagree with what you said about wishing them a good day. I think its okay to do that.

[cricfan4ever]

Nowadays, hardly anyone, including the vast majority of Christians in the West, regard Xmas as being a religious event anymore, just as Xmas trees, roast turkey and Santa Clause has nothing to do with the 'birthday' of Prophet Isa (Jesus to Christians) - I'm sure his parents, or their friends and relatives, did not do so when he was born !

So for anyone to claim that Muslims are somehow committing a sin by celebrating on the 25th December, or by having trees in the home with decorations on and eating turkey on that day, and wishing their fellow man a joyful and happy time (irregardless of the specific words used), are being totally ignorant of the purpose of Islam.

Wishing you all Seasons Greetings and a Happy New Year.

Wrong.

Just because majority does not celebrate it as such today, doesn't mean it takes away its true origins and meaning...and Christmas as we know has pagan origin hence forbidden for Muslims to participate in...

I mean think for yourself, why did early Christians even begin to celebrate it? you have to go by the origin and true meaning, not what it has become today...Christmas began as a religious holiday hence it is not from Islam, it is another story that it is commercialized today...

[DeadlyVenom]

So for anyone to claim that Muslims are somehow committing a sin by celebrating on the 25th December, or by having trees in the home with decorations on and eating turkey on that day, and wishing their fellow man a joyful and happy time (irregardless of the specific words used), are being totally ignorant of the purpose of Islam.

Wishing you all Seasons Greetings and a Happy New Year.

Whats the purpose of Islam then?

[cricfan4ever]

Thats fine, I agree with you on that, I don't celebrate christmas at all but I disagree with what you said about wishing them a good day. I think its okay to do that.

wishing them a good day is like wishing them congratulations for the fact that Son of God was born, that is the whole issue with it...

I mean just do what you mentioned, instead of wishing them a good day, simply tell them you do not celebrate Christmas and than explain Islamic view of Jesus (as)...simple...

we are more concerned about pleasing Allah (swt) than pleasing non-believers...

rest is upto you bro.

[duostyle]

Brothers, you have convinced me.

Have a joyless Christmas and a sad New Year you infidels!



PS. Burn in hell, thx

[Shaheerthe2nd]

Yes I can deny that, how can someone take Islam too far,explain that to me because like I said a muslim is a muslim there is no extremist,moderate,jihadi in Islam.
My advice to you guys would be to not use these labels that the kuffar have made as they are an attempt to divide us even more than we are already divided,and stay away from quilliam foundation and majid nawaz and ed husain as these people are apostates and you will end up with a corrupted mind like a certain poster on pp who is a supporter of these people.
Like I said, it's a discussion for a different debate. The topic here is whether or not Muslims should celebrate Christmas.

I'll be more than happy to debate with you about extremism in a different thread. :)

[duostyle]

In all seriousness though, nah I don't celebrate it, it was interesting when I was a kid though. Now I do what DV said in his post.

So yeah, happy holidays. :moyo

[shaheen1shaheen2]

Like I said, it's a discussion for a different debate. The topic here is whether or not Muslims should celebrate Christmas.

I'll be more than happy to debate with you about extremism in a different thread. :)

No problem my brother insha allah we'll have a gentlemanly debate on another day but when we do,please no childish comments or mocking the deen as it just spoils it and you get the same undesirable characters who will come and derail the thread.
Salaam.

[saj001]

PTTI will be cutting cake tomorrow at jalsa:). WE ARE PAKISTANIS!

[Geordie Ahmed]

Obviously each to their own BUT those saying they use Christmas to spend time with their family and give presents, what is Eid for? heck, we get 2 Eid's so no need to jump on a 'rival' :yk :yk religions festival

[justarslan]

Happy Holidays to all people!

[justarslan]

PTTI will be cutting cake tomorrow at jalsa:). WE ARE PAKISTANIS!
Are you calling Chanda to wish her Happy Christmas?

[pakistanbest]

If people celebrate during the Xmas holidays, i.e just in general on any given day, catch up with faimly etc but if people go out of their way to do it on Xmas day den imo that's just wrong, we have 2 eid's, people should just make use of the holidays, the sales and spending time with the family, celebrating Xmas on its day is a sign that you are celebrating it.

Merry xmas to everone celebrating it :D

[Ambi]

The first muslims who arrived on 7th century in malabar cost of india have no restrictions for celebrating any other religions festival when compared to ones who arrived in north india during 12th century

[James]

wishing them a good day is like wishing them congratulations for the fact that Son of God was born, that is the whole issue with it...

I mean just do what you mentioned, instead of wishing them a good day, simply tell them you do not celebrate Christmas and than explain Islamic view of Jesus (as)...simple...

we are more concerned about pleasing Allah (swt) than pleasing non-believers...

rest is upto you bro.

Have you ever had a verbal conversation with another person?

[Black Zero]

Guys was reading an article today and found this :

"When you are wishing someone Merry Christmas,without you realize, you are agreeing that God has a son and he was born on 25th December. Astagfirullah. Saying God has a children is a Shirk(the greatest sin in Islam), as Allah says in the Quran: "Allah begets not, nor was He begotten" [112: 3]"

Now as a Muslim, personally I think its harmless to say Merry Christmas to a friend or neighbour. Am i wrong and what are your views?
Im going to play it safe and wish you all Seasons Greetings :fawad

Logically how?

[violet_may]

Have you ever had a verbal conversation with another person?

:)))

Merry Christmas to those celebrating it.

Happy holidays to the rest. :moyo


It hasn't snowed at all this time around. Lame.

[James]

It's raining where I am! Bah.

Ah well, food, presents and atmosphere will make up for it.

Happy holidays!

[cricfan4ever]

Have you ever had a verbal conversation with another person?

yes I have, and your point?

I once had a Christian missionary approach me on my university campus, and I explained to him the Islamic view of Jesus Christ (pbuh)...

[James]

Dude it's Christmas day, and you're sat on an Internet forum putting forward laughable arguments as to why people shouldn't celebrate Christmas or even be allowed to be nice to people who do so! Meanwhile the rest of us are unwrapping presents, watching seasonal telly, looking forward to our family dinners and ringing our friends. This is a good day which brings people together, so pull your head out of your backside and get a grip!!

[cricfan4ever]

Dude it's Christmas day, and you're sat on an Internet forum putting forward laughable arguments as to why people shouldn't celebrate Christmas or even be allowed to be nice to people who do so! Meanwhile the rest of us are unwrapping presents, watching seasonal telly, looking forward to our family dinners and ringing our friends. This is a good day which brings people together, so pull your head out of your backside and get a grip!!

I could careless what you do on 'Christmas' day but I certainly do care about what my fellow Muslim brethren is doing...and for us Qur'an and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) are not 'laughable' so mind your language because my arguments included clear evidence from them...if people want to take it as some trivial matter they are being foolish to say the least...

now go on, celebrate your 'Christmas' day...

[Javelin]

The family's on holiday, no work today, the offices are closed, the kids are at home from schools and uni's, so what should the whole (extended) family do ? :79:

I know :104:

Take the opportunity to have a family gathering, get together and re-establish family bonds !! :2gunsfiri

I've just put the turkey in the oven. :116:

Seasons Greetings everyone !

[Javelin]

Whats the purpose of Islam then?To provide us with a 'guide', a sort of 'Life's Highway Code', in how to live good, honest, healthy lives as well as how to interact with our parents, kids, relatives, friends and the rest of our fellow men (and women).

Peace be upon you my friend, and Seasons Greetings to all.

[Legal Eye]

Merry Christmas to one and all

[jeetu]

Merry Christmas to all PPers.

[Robert]

I could careless what you do on 'Christmas' day

If you could careless [sic], that means you do care what we do on Christmas Day! Hurray!

[Markhor]

Merry Christmas to all those that are celebrating it !

[Theo_14]

It is not permissible for the Muslim to join the kuffaar in their festivals and to express joy and happiness on these occasions, or to take the day off work, whether the occasion is religious or secular, because this is a kind of imitating the enemies of Allah, which is forbidden, and a kind of co-operating with them in falsehood. It was proven that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.”

When you are wishing someone "Merry Christmas", without you realizing, you are agreeing that Jesus Christ (PBUH) is the begotten the son of God and he was born on the 25th December.

Saying that God has a son you are committing an act of shirk which is the greatest sin in Islam. As Allah says in Quran: "Allah begets not, nor was he begotten" [Quran 112.3]

Source : Islamic Group/Facebook

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

Let me reiterate my point: Listening to "Scholars of Islam" and Mullahs is not my thang. It seems I disagree with them 99% of the time. :yk

And bro you're ruining my preparations for the big celebration with the Kuffar tomorrow. :fawad

Do you know where I can get a cheap turkey from?

You are significantly ignorant you know that. How can you see you disagree with scholars 99perecnt of the time, may I ask you what scholar do you follow? Do you not follow Islam? Is that what it is, because I feel like your mocking my faith.

[azhar329]

Muslims should not engage/participate in any non-muslim festivals, please read the following link if you sincerely want to know the correct Islamic position rather than posting to irritate and mock others:

http://islamqa.info/en/cat/2021


And to cricfan4ever, jazakAllah khair re one of your posts that I read.

[Rookie123]

On another thread it says Pak's Father of Nation was born on X'mas... reason enuf for you 2 celebrate....

[PB]

Love Christmas time! :D

Merry Christmas to everyone! :D

[PB]

Dude it's Christmas day, and you're sat on an Internet forum putting forward laughable arguments as to why people shouldn't celebrate Christmas or even be allowed to be nice to people who do so! Meanwhile the rest of us are unwrapping presents, watching seasonal telly, looking forward to our family dinners and ringing our friends. This is a good day which brings people together, so pull your head out of your backside and get a grip!!

Amen!

[Warfare]

You are significantly ignorant you know that. How can you see you disagree with scholars 99perecnt of the time, may I ask you what scholar do you follow? Do you not follow Islam? Is that what it is, because I feel like your mocking my faith.

How am I mocking Islam?

I just prefer not listen to Scholars who say "wishing" Merry Christmas is a sin and you will be punished for it. Among other issues.

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

How am I mocking Islam?

I just prefer not listen to Scholars who say "wishing" Merry Christmas is a sin and you will be punished for it. Among other issues.

You prefer not to listen to 99 perecent, what do you listen to and who do you follow then?

[Warfare]

You prefer not to listen to 99 perecent, what do you listen to and who do you follow then?

Hyperbole.

There are some issues that I disagree with though that many scholars agree on...

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

Hyperbole.

There are some issues that I disagree with though that many scholars agree on...

Linguistic skills ;)

But seriously be creful what you say man, I know you so well and for so long I know your not a complete dumb a$s :afridi

And be careful what scholars you follow !

[Javelin]

Just finished eating the turkey me and the missis spent hours cooking today. Everyone present enjoyed it thoroughly.

In a short while, will pop around to my 'Christian' neighbours to say 'hello' (-I don't have any Muslim neighbours nearby), and perhaps even take them some jalebi I purchased yesterday. I might even stay there for a cup of coffee and some fruit cake (alcohol free).

Seasons greetings to you all.

[James]

Cracking dinner here as well!

[DeadlyVenom]

Had a real life debate of this thread today when we went to visit some family and they pulled out a mini Christmas tree and put it on the table while we were having dinner :))

Like this thread the debate was epic and like this thread it didn't get resolved :))

Hope you had good days all that celebrate.

[Waq]

Well we had a lovely day and celebrated Christmas all together as a family including my parents, wife, children, brother, sister and niece.

I went and ordered a £100 turkey and to be honest, I do not actually like turkey and will not spend such an obscene amount again. My local butchers sells halal turkeys for £4 a kilo and the posh organic stuff was £12 a kilo.

The turkey was put brined for 48 hours and cooked slowly so was nice and moist. We even had halal goose fat for the potatoes and Christmas crackers on the table etc.

I was thinking of many of you on here whilst I was having my meal and celebrating. Honestly, I felt no guilt or remorse for simply having a meal with family. My parents are old school and also had no problem and it was a lovely day with lots of happy memories. My Pakistani children can now return to school after the holidays and not feel left out when everyone else talks about Christmas day and presents. The spirit of Christmas is great and the best part of it is - I am still Muslim! Everybody needs to lighten up.

[DeadlyVenom]

:)) at kids feeling left out.

When your daughter wants to start wearing mini skirts coz her friends do, or your kids wanna start clubbing with their friends "just to listen to the music" would you let them do it so they can go to school next day and not feel a little sad?

[Waq]

:)) at kids feeling left out.

When your daughter wants to start wearing mini skirts coz her friends do, or your kids wanna start clubbing with their friends "just to listen to the music" would you let them do it so they can go to school next day and not feel a little sad?

Listen beta - learn some respect. I am a principled guy and do things within limits of decency. Do not compare or even judge me by comparing having a halal turkey for dinner to a daughter going clubbing and grow up.

Have you even got any children? This is why debating on an internet forum is frustrating at times because a youngster would normally not talk like this in person and get personal.

[DeadlyVenom]

Listen beta - learn some respect. I am a principled guy and do things within limits of decency. Do not compare or even judge me by comparing having a halal turkey for dinner to a daughter going clubbing and grow up.

Have you even got any children? This is why debating on an internet forum is frustrating at times because a youngster would normally not talk like this in person and get personal.

I think in real life its easier to judge a persons tone so you would have been able to see that I was not being snide or rude.

[Waq]

I think in real life its easier to judge a persons tone so you would have been able to see that I was not being snide or rude.

Perhaps I was touchy. Nothing to do with the laughing smiley to make me think it was a snide comment?......

[DeadlyVenom]

Perhaps I was touchy. Nothing to do with the laughing smiley to make me think it was a snide comment?......


Sorry I was laughing at the kids feeling left out thing because it sounded like you were using it as an excuse so you could celebrate christmas. My intention wasnt to offend you and if I have, I apologise. I just get uncomfortable when people start celebrating christmas especially with their kids but whatever, your choice. Again apologies bro.

[GOAT]

Don't see the point in Muslims celebrating a holiday (with religious roots) that isn't theres. Don't see the harm in wishing others or giving gifts to those who do celebrate.

[Waq]

Don't see the point in Muslims celebrating a holiday (with religious roots) that isn't theres. Don't see the harm in wishing others or giving gifts to those who do celebrate.

What do you class as a celebration? Do you object to having a meal? Is it not good to celebrate with your neighbours and partake in their joy? Do you not see the point of having an opportunity to spend time with family?

Flip it around - would you object if you had a Western neighbour who decided to cook an Eid meal or come round to your house for some food for Eid? I personally would be very happy if my neighbours took part in my festivities.

I am also confused with your comment on not seeing the harm of giving a gift. Is this also not celebrating?

[Waq]

Sorry I was laughing at the kids feeling left out thing because it sounded like you were using it as an excuse so you could celebrate christmas. My intention wasnt to offend you and if I have, I apologise. I just get uncomfortable when people start celebrating christmas especially with their kids but whatever, your choice. Again apologies bro.

^ No worries

What part of Kids celebrating Christmas makes you uncomfortable? As a Muslim family we also make a big deal out of Eid and my children definitely have no identity issue. They are aware that they are Muslim, they are British but also different because of their brown skin and Pakistani heritage.

Living in a western country we are taught at a young age to respect other faiths. In fact, primary and infant school children learn about other faiths from the age of 3!

It all comes down to what I said in my last post. What do you class as a celebration? In simple terms, I had a meal with my family, which to be fair we do every Sunday anyway and this was done under the guise of Christmas with traditional Christmas food. My kids can now relate to the majority of their classmates and by no means wish to convert to Christianity!

In fact if there was a local Diwali event then I would happily attend with family. How can you progress if you do not learn new experiences? This is a limiting factor of many Pakistanis and one I try to stay away from.

[GOAT]

What do you class as a celebration? Do you object to having a meal? Is it not good to celebrate with your neighbours and partake in their joy? Do you not see the point of having an opportunity to spend time with family?

Flip it around - would you object if you had a Western neighbour who decided to cook an Eid meal or come round to your house for some food for Eid? I personally would be very happy if my neighbours took part in my festivities.

I am also confused with your comment on not seeing the harm of giving a gift. Is this also not celebrating?

When I say celebrate I mean doing it with your own family, no neighbours or outsiders. Buying a tree and exchanging presents with your family is unnecessary as it isn't a part of our customs or religion.

For the second part of your post, there's a huge difference in spending time with someone who celebrates a given holiday and celebrating that holiday in your own private time. If I give a present to my Christian neighbour that doesn't mean I'm celebrating Christmas - it means I'm acknowledging that they celebrate it and am being a good person/neighbour. Same as if they want to spend some time on Eid.

Don't see how you can't see the difference in recognizing and being neighbourly with ones friends/neighbours and actually celebrating in private with your family. I hope my post cleared up what I meant.

[Waq]

When I say celebrate I mean doing it with your own family, no neighbours or outsiders. Buying a tree and exchanging presents with your family is unnecessary as it isn't a part of our customs or religion.

For the second part of your post, there's a huge difference in spending time with someone who celebrates a given holiday and celebrating that holiday in your own private time. If I give a present to my Christian neighbour that doesn't mean I'm celebrating Christmas - it means I'm acknowledging that they celebrate it and am being a good person/neighbour. Same as if they want to spend some time on Eid.

Don't see how you can't see the difference in recognizing and being neighbourly with ones friends/neighbours and actually celebrating in private with your family. I hope my post cleared up what I meant.

Ok so to simplify, then it is not the meal but customs/traditions such as a Christmas tree and exchanging presents?

If yes then is it a bad thing to give / receive presents and does it hinder us in practicing our faith?

With regards to the Christmas tree, it is tradition to place presents under the tree and also symbolises the Christmas period. As much as it may not be for you, how is this is a bad thing especially if it excites the children? Most Western Children's story books and television programmes make prominent use of a Christmas tree and puts a smile on the little shits faces! Can you now see the point or do you think that all of this makes us worse Muslims?

I accept that none of the above are our own customs but that to me is a good thing. Why limit ourselves? There was a phase a decade ago when no UK Pakistani bought German and it was tradition to buy a Toyota Corolla. I was glad to be different and experience an Audi. Possibly a lame example but hopefully you can still see the point.

As Muslims why can we not experience or partake in other customs or festivities? How good a Muslim we are should also not be a factor or focusing on Islam because that is between us and our maker.

[GOAT]

Dude, you can try to justify it all you want but you're celebrating a non-Islamic holiday. Children get excited and happy by all kinds of things, its your job as an adult to teach them otherwise. There's nothing stopping them from getting overly excited and joyed over Eid.

Why do you feel the need to celebrate Christmas?

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

Respect to GOAT

[pakistanbest]

Goat on a role :))

In regards to Waq, am sure he is one of PP's uncles :D

I personally feel that celebrating it is wrong as if you wish to celebrate that then perhaps everyone should start celebrating Diwali aswell as other festivals. None of us should judge one another especially as this is a forum but I do see Waq's pov but I guess we should all agree to disagree as people will have various opinions about Xmas.

One of the reasons for people to get together on Xmas day is due to their being not much traffic and if I was well enough then yesterday would have paid Southall a visiti with friends :)

Yesterday was so boring, TV was really rubbish, looking forward to today's football :)

Merry Xmas to those who celebrated it :)

[James]

Waq is clearly a top bloke.

[Javelin]

Ok so to simplify, then it is not the meal but customs/traditions such as a Christmas tree and exchanging presents?

If yes then is it a bad thing to give / receive presents and does it hinder us in practicing our faith?

With regards to the Christmas tree, it is tradition to place presents under the tree and also symbolises the Christmas period. As much as it may not be for you, how is this is a bad thing especially if it excites the children? Most Western Children's story books and television programmes make prominent use of a Christmas tree and puts a smile on the little shits faces! Can you now see the point or do you think that all of this makes us worse Muslims?

I accept that none of the above are our own customs but that to me is a good thing. Why limit ourselves? There was a phase a decade ago when no UK Pakistani bought German and it was tradition to buy a Toyota Corolla. I was glad to be different and experience an Audi. Possibly a lame example but hopefully you can still see the point.

As Muslims why can we not experience or partake in other customs or festivities? How good a Muslim we are should also not be a factor or focusing on Islam because that is between us and our maker.Waq,
Sometimes you cannot get it through to some that there is nothing wrong with being a good Muslim AND also being a UK citizen who's grown up here, and regards this as being also their country, and thus is willing to partake in some of the local customs of this land.

Many of those who criticise this mode of life are often young, born in this country (and often, their parents also born here), and yet do not regard themselves as citizens of this land.

If they only realised that the current facilities that Muslims enjoy, such as Mosques and halal meals in hospitals, have only come about in the last 30 years or so, due to the efforts of those such as us and our parents, by living in harmony with the indigenous populations and sharing with them one's beliefs and principles, instead of creating barriers and antagonisms.

[James]

Waq,
Sometimes you cannot get it through to some that there is nothing wrong with being a good Muslim AND also being a UK citizen who's grown up here, and regards this as being also their country, and thus is willing to partake in some of the local customs of this land.

Many of those who criticise this mode of life are often young, born in this country (and often, their parents also born here), and yet do not regard themselves as citizens of this land.

If they only realised that the current facilities that Muslims enjoy, such as Mosques and halal meals in hospitals, have only come about in the last 30 years or so, due to the efforts of those such as us and our parents, by living in harmony with the indigenous populations and sharing with them one's beliefs and principles, instead of creating barriers and antagonisms.

Great post! Respect to you sir.

[DeadlyVenom]

Ok so to simplify, then it is not the meal but customs/traditions such as a Christmas tree and exchanging presents?

If yes then is it a bad thing to give / receive presents and does it hinder us in practicing our faith?

With regards to the Christmas tree, it is tradition to place presents under the tree and also symbolises the Christmas period. As much as it may not be for you, how is this is a bad thing especially if it excites the children? Most Western Children's story books and television programmes make prominent use of a Christmas tree and puts a smile on the little shits faces! Can you now see the point or do you think that all of this makes us worse Muslims?

I accept that none of the above are our own customs but that to me is a good thing. Why limit ourselves? There was a phase a decade ago when no UK Pakistani bought German and it was tradition to buy a Toyota Corolla. I was glad to be different and experience an Audi. Possibly a lame example but hopefully you can still see the point.

As Muslims why can we not experience or partake in other customs or festivities? How good a Muslim we are should also not be a factor or focusing on Islam because that is between us and our maker.

None of that stuff you mentioned like having a meal and giving presents is a problem at all unless you do it on Christmas day. Don't worry about your kids feeling left out so much, you are probably feeling it more than them.

I'll give you an example, When I was young pre - primary school my mum would take me to see Santa. At the age of about 5 my parents explained to me that this day wasn't for me and we have two other days in the year that I will get gifts. That put a bigger smile on my face! Your kids will not sulk for too long, trust me!

Throughout this thread I've mentioned that I have no problems wishing non muslims a happy Christmas but as muslims we should refrain from celebrating it in the way Christians do. Probably every family in the country sits down to have a meal as its the only day that everybody is off but adopting the ways of the Christians for this meal takes us as muslims into dangerous territory.

[DeadlyVenom]

Many of those who criticise this mode of life are often young, born in this country (and often, their parents also born here), and yet do not regard themselves as citizens of this land.
Thats a very unfair comment. From this forum theres seems to be 3 different types of people.

1 - Those that don't feel like they belong, so try and reject the culture and do not regard themselves as citizens etc

2 - Those that feel like they don't belong so try extra hard to fit in are overly apologetic and feel the need to show the natives that they are one of them.

3 - Those comfortable enough with being British to know what they should and should not do and know that not celebrating christmas will not make them less British.

I fall in the third group. Its our right being British to criticise whatever the hell we want and we don't need to be scared all the time.

they only realised that the current facilities that Muslims enjoy, such as Mosques and halal meals in hospitals, have only come about in the last 30 years or so, due to the efforts of those such as us and our parents, by living in harmony with the indigenous populations and sharing with them one's beliefs and principles, instead of creating barriers and antagonisms.
How is celebrating Christmas in your own four walls, with the curtains pulled over your window breaking down any form of barrier. It seems these barriers exist only in your mind. People need to learn the difference between integration and immitation.

[Waq]

Dude, you can try to justify it all you want but you're celebrating a non-Islamic holiday. Children get excited and happy by all kinds of things, its your job as an adult to teach them otherwise. There's nothing stopping them from getting overly excited and joyed over Eid.

Why do you feel the need to celebrate Christmas?

If you actually read my earlier posts then you would realise that I have been clear on saying that I make an effort on Eid with my children!

I have already asked you to define what you class a celebration as to me it is attending church on Christmas.

Is a meal really celebrating Christmas? If so, why I it actually bad though? Nobody has been clear on this. What about birthdays and valentines day etc, we have all celebrated these days at some point in our lives. Are these not non Islamic?

[Waq]

None of that stuff you mentioned like having a meal and giving presents is a problem at all unless you do it on Christmas day. Don't worry about your kids feeling left out so much, you are probably feeling it more than them.

I'll give you an example, When I was young pre - primary school my mum would take me to see Santa. At the age of about 5 my parents explained to me that this day wasn't for me and we have two other days in the year that I will get gifts. That put a bigger smile on my face! Your kids will not sulk for too long, trust me!

Throughout this thread I've mentioned that I have no problems wishing non muslims a happy Christmas but as muslims we should refrain from celebrating it in the way Christians do. Probably every family in the country sits down to have a meal as its the only day that everybody is off but adopting the ways of the Christians for this meal takes us as muslims into dangerous territory.

Your focusing on the kids feelings too much. It is to increase their happiness not to take away their sadness. They will still be happy content children if they do not celebrate Christmas.

In terms of your example of having two Eids, I acknowledge and use that for my children as I was also a young boy once growing up in the west!

The point I am trying to zoom into is how is celebrating Christmas going into dangerous territory? Infact why can Santa not be for us? He is just a commercialised figure in a red costume. Is it not just fun? What is bad about him as Muslims?

[Impala_KaifTamasha]

@ Waq, strictly speaking we are not allowed to celebrate birthdays, valentines day and mothers day ect.

[James]

Thats a very unfair comment. From this forum theres seems to be 3 different types of people.

1 - Those that don't feel like they belong, so try and reject the culture and do not regard themselves as citizens etc

2 - Those that feel like they don't belong so try extra hard to fit in are overly apologetic and feel the need to show the natives that they are one of them.

3 - Those comfortable enough with being British to know what they should and should not do and know that not celebrating christmas will not make them less British.

I fall in the third group. Its our right being British to criticise whatever the hell we want and we don't need to be scared all the time.

You are a bit harsh about the people who integrate in what you see as an overly apologetic manner. They might just as well see it as a pleasure to integrate because of their sense of Britishness, which you interpret as meekness...

Britishness is typically hard to define - I would say it is more a state of mind than anything to do with nationality, ethnicity or religion. In this respect your second and third groups are not too different, they just have different personalities.

Got my own opinions on your first group, which I do agree exists separately. Probably best to leave these thoughts for another thread on another day...

[Waq]

@ Waq, strictly speaking we are not allowed to celebrate birthdays, valentines day and mothers day ect.

I acknowledge that this is a popular opinion but not everybody agrees.

I raise this point because I was trying to gauge those who feel that Christmas should not be celebrated and whether they believe in other events such as birthdays, valentines mothers day etc.

[pakistanbest]

@ Waq, strictly speaking we are not allowed to celebrate birthdays, valentines day and mothers day ect.

This is not aimed at anyone but the craze with valentines, mothers day etc is just stupid, each and everyday should be a day to show your loved ones appreciation and love, it is after all a marketing ploy just to sell gifts for 'mums' etc.

Each to their own I guess but I've alway tried maninting my own way and don't need a specific date to buy presents and show my love but I guess that topic is for another thread :)

[Waq]

Moving forward, new years eve is round the corner and I have two Muslim couples round my house, one Christian couple an one Hindu couple. We will celebrate by having a laugh and a joke an just being together.

Any fatwas to the above?

[Waq]

This is not aimed at anyone but the craze with valentines, mothers day etc is just stupid, each and everyday should be a day to show your loved ones appreciation and love, it is after all a marketing ploy just to sell gifts for 'mums' etc.

Each to their own I guess but I've alway tried maninting my own way and don't need a specific date to buy presents and show my love but I guess that topic is for another thread :)

I agree and Christmas is nothing but marketing too but used as an excuse for a get together.

In the real world, I don't remember the wife everyday so I am grateful to days such as valentines or spoiling my mother on mothers day. In fact, I get immense pleasure when I am appreciated on father's day.

You don't need a specific day but we are all humans who forget in the real world so these days bring a bit of remembrance. Real world is not Bollywood where everyday is a valentines day. The recession would be much worse if that was the case!

[James]

We will celebrate by having a laugh and a joke an just being together.

Any fatwas to the above?

Beat me to it. I was just about to pronounce a death-mark for the heinous acts of socialising and not living in a dogmatised pod.

[DeadlyVenom]

Moving forward, new years eve is round the corner and I have two Muslim couples round my house, one Christian couple an one Hindu couple. We will celebrate by having a laugh and a joke an just being together.

Any fatwas to the above?

Enjoy!

Its quite different to the Christmas thing IMO

[ShaazE]

Why do some British-'Asian' Uncle Toms try so hard to find an Islamic justification for everything they do?

[Waq]

Why do some British-'Asian' Uncle Toms try so hard to find an Islamic justification for everything they do?

Please enter the arena and elaborate?

[Waq]

Beat me to it. I was just about to pronounce a death-mark for the heinous acts of socialising and not living in a dogmatised pod.

Are you aware of it having any religious significance?

In my world, new years eve is just a milestone to a normally hectic and stressful year and celebrated by having more fun then usual.

I know that most of us Muslims do not have an issue with this day as there are many bruvs hitting the clubs that night!

[DeadlyVenom]

You are a bit harsh about the people who integrate in what you see as an overly apologetic manner. They might just as well see it as a pleasure to integrate because of their sense of Britishness, which you interpret as meekness...

Could be but then why do they need to bring up stuff like breaking down barriers and other cliches like that. If they were doing it for pleasure they wouldn't make these silly excuses.

Britishness is typically hard to define - I would say it is more a state of mind than anything to do with nationality, ethnicity or religion. In this respect your second and third groups are not too different, they just have different personalities..

I meant British as in feeling like citizens and have a sense of attachment to the country, which as you have said is probably a state of mind.

Got my own opinions on your first group, which I do agree exists separately. Probably best to leave these thoughts for another thread on another day...
These are the chaps that interest me the most to be honest!

[Waq]

Going back to Christmas, my local kebab shop makes a killing every year in terms of sales.

All my local bruvs go to the kebab shop for a meal as there is nothing else open and look forward to this yearly event. In my opinion, they would be better off with mum and dad having a nice meal.

[Javelin]

I fall in the third group. Its our right being British to criticise whatever the hell we want and we don't need to be scared all the time.As I said, if it was'nt for the likes of us (- I was instrumental, many many years ago, in asking the headmaster to excuse Muslim children from attending Christian assembly at school, in the days when religious assembly used to be a legal requirement, and allow us a Muslim assembly instead - The headmaster obliged) and our parents (-my father was a leading member of a group of men who donated and collected money and built the first Mosque in our town) who decided to live in harmony, instead of carrying chips on our shoulders all the time, the newer generations would not be benefitting from attending Mosques, enjoying halal food from halal slaughter houses, eating halal food in schools and hospitals, and all the other benefits of living in a British society that has many Muslim facilities.

So I suggest you and others who deride us for 'integrating' should think again before condemning us for the way we choose to live our lives.

[James]

Maybe they see integration as a positive thing that is not necessarily forced, and enjoy highlighting why, because it is a part of their sense of self and sense of Britishness.

Meanwhile, the rejecting 'chaps' are interesting for sure - but polite? likeable? rational? positive influences on society? give their forefathers a good image? Not so sure about any of that...

[James]

New Year - not sure what it is really, apart from the transition between two days on the Gregorian calendar. People can spend the hours around midnight however they please, and whatever their religion. I think.

[Javelin]

New Year - not sure what it is really, apart from the transition between two days on the Gregorian calendar. People can spend the hours around midnight however they please, and whatever their religion. I think.Used to mean end-year-processing, an opportunity to upgrade the mainframes whilst everyone was away, and do general housekeeping whilst having pizza's and enjoying general banter without the Users barracking us all the time ! :))

[Waq]

Used to mean end-year-processing, an opportunity to upgrade the mainframes whilst everyone was away, and do general housekeeping whilst having pizza's and enjoying general banter without the Users barracking us all the time ! :))

IT geek :haha

[DeadlyVenom]

As I said, if it was'nt for the likes of us (- I was instrumental, many many years ago, in asking the headmaster to excuse Muslim children from attending Christian assembly at school, in the days when religious assembly used to be a legal requirement, and allow us a Muslim assembly instead - The headmaster obliged) and our parents (-my father was a leading member of a group of men who donated and collected money and built the first Mosque in our town) who decided to live in harmony, instead of carrying chips on our shoulders all the time, the newer generations would not be benefitting from attending Mosques, enjoying halal food from halal slaughter houses, eating halal food in schools and hospitals, and all the other benefits of living in a British society that has many Muslim facilities.

So I suggest you and others who deride us for 'integrating' should think again before condemning us for the way we choose to live our lives.

Thats some nice stories but nobody is deriding you or condemning you. All I was saying is that ( due do the hardwork of guys like you and your dad) we dont need to go out of our way to prove ourself and not celebrating christmas does not make us less British.

[kasim7864]

What is Christmas?

To the Christian it is the date when Jesus was born. It includes going to mass and going to Church and then having a celebration with the family. By celebration I mean a meal and exchanging gifts.

To the atheist/agnostic living in the west it is day to give presents and spend time with family. They are not celebrating the birth of Jesus they are merely practising customs that have been entrenched in their lives since they were born and also practises on living in a Christian country.

So if Muslims living in the west want to have a meal with the family on the 25th December when all the family will more than likely have the day off I don't see that as much of a problem.

[Waq]

What is Christmas?

To the Christian it is the date when Jesus was born. It includes going to mass and going to Church and then having a celebration with the family. By celebration I mean a meal and exchanging gifts.

To the atheist/agnostic living in the west it is day to give presents and spend time with family. They are not celebrating the birth of Jesus they are merely practising customs that have been entrenched in their lives since they were born and also practises on living in a Christian country.

So if Muslims living in the west want to have a meal with the family on the 25th December when all the family will more than likely have the day off I don't see that as much of a problem.

Good post - it was a Hulk Hogan big leg drop!

[Equinox]

What is Christmas?

To the Christian it is the date when Jesus was born. It includes going to mass and going to Church and then having a celebration with the family. By celebration I mean a meal and exchanging gifts.

To the atheist/agnostic living in the west it is day to give presents and spend time with family. They are not celebrating the birth of Jesus they are merely practising customs that have been entrenched in their lives since they were born and also practises on living in a Christian country.

So if Muslims living in the west want to have a meal with the family on the 25th December when all the family will more than likely have the day off I don't see that as much of a problem.
+1
Very well put. If only everyone else understood this simple point.

[MC]

Yeah all these internet Mullahs in every other thread like to preach how West would so benefit from adopting our Islamic/cultural values and ways yet we Muslims would burn in hell if we follow the oh so Christian custom of having a nice family dinner at 25th of December?

Is Islam really that backward and rigid and full of bigotry or they're something really wrong with Muslims happily living in oh so Christian/kuffer countries? Then you wonder why they don't see you one of them?

[KingKhanWC]

It's very sad people feel their kids are missing out and thus have to buy a Turkey, get presents on a specific day and put up a tree in a house.

Why can't people just love their kids and tell them the truth? Kids especially those who are bought up as Muslims should be told there is no Santa Claus or flying reindeers but there is a God.

I wonder if those parents who make their kids eat Turkey also make them pray their salat on Christmas day? :13:

[cricfan4ever]

Dude, you can try to justify it all you want but you're celebrating a non-Islamic holiday. Children get excited and happy by all kinds of things, its your job as an adult to teach them otherwise. There's nothing stopping them from getting overly excited and joyed over Eid.

Why do you feel the need to celebrate Christmas?

SubhanAllah brother! top post! :14:

[Waq]

It's very sad people feel their kids are missing out and thus have to buy a Turkey, get presents on a specific day and put up a tree in a house.

Why can't people just love their kids and tell them the truth? Kids especially those who are bought up as Muslims should be told there is no Santa Claus or flying reindeers but there is a God.

I wonder if those parents who make their kids eat Turkey also make them pray their salat on Christmas day? :13:

But what is your issue with eating Turkey or even a roast Beef joint or Chicken? Why is it actually wrong as so far there has been much criticism but no logic or proof.

My mum did the whole tooth fairy thing with me as a Muslim and guess what, I am still a Muslim no that I am longer and the myth has been shattered!

In terms of praying Salat, how is that part of the argument? The issue is whether it is wrong to celebrate Christmas and we are all presenting our arguments. I have yet to see a religious reason on why I cannot and religious to me incorporates moral reasons too.

[KingKhanWC]

But what is your issue with eating Turkey or even a roast Beef joint or Chicken? Why is it actually wrong as so far there has been much criticism but no logic or proof.

There is nothing wrong with eating those meats but to do them on a specific day is following a pagan ritual, which Christmas is.

My mum did the whole tooth fairy thing with me as a Muslim and guess what, I am still a Muslim no that I am longer and the myth has been shattered!

I'm not judging you or your family, for all I know you guys are better Muslims than most including me.

Personally I believe kids should be told what the parents feel to be true. I see little point in telling kids fairy stories and making them believe they are true. I don't see any positive benefit for the child.

n terms of praying Salat, how is that part of the argument? The issue is whether it is wrong to celebrate Christmas and we are all presenting our arguments. I have yet to see a religious reason on why I cannot and religious to me incorporates moral reasons too.

Salat is very important as you know. It's far more important than eating Turkey or opening presents. I just wondered if those Muslims who do the whole Christmas ritual/routine also make their kids pray Salat on the same day.

As for religous reasons, we are told not to follow Pagan rituals, this is a well known part of Islam. Also there is a reasoning known as footsteps of the Shaytan.

[cricfan4ever]

Yeah all these internet Mullahs in every other thread like to preach how West would so benefit from adopting our Islamic/cultural values and ways yet we Muslims would burn in hell if we follow the oh so Christian custom of having a nice family dinner at 25th of December?

Is Islam really that backward and rigid and full of bigotry or they're something really wrong with Muslims happily living in oh so Christian/kuffer countries? Then you wonder why they don't see you one of them?

rubbish from post from yet another apologist :facepalm:

did not Prophet (saw) and Sahaba (ra) live amongst the Kuffar ???

in case if you have forgotten Islam is the TRUTH and you are not proud of that than perhaps you need to seriously reflect on your soul !!!

if you want to be nice to Non-Muslims when you are approached on issues like Christmas etc., be nice by telling them the truth politely as that will serve them more in the end than anything else...do you not want them to go to paradise as well ???

[shaheen1shaheen2]

But what is your issue with eating Turkey or even a roast Beef joint or Chicken? Why is it actually wrong as so far there has been much criticism but no logic or proof.

My mum did the whole tooth fairy thing with me as a Muslim and guess what, I am still a Muslim no that I am longer and the myth has been shattered!

In terms of praying Salat, how is that part of the argument? The issue is whether it is wrong to celebrate Christmas and we are all presenting our arguments. I have yet to see a religious reason on why I cannot and religious to me incorporates moral reasons too.

You say you are yet to see a religious reason why you should not celebrate christmas,if I show you evidence from quran and sunnah that it is forbidden and can take you out of the fold of islam will you accept it?

[cricfan4ever]

As I stated earlier - there are many youngsters on this forum who are not in touch with the real world and have have a lack of life experiences.

:)))

'real world' has been defined in the Qur'an and Sunnah

don't try to present your own view on here because it is rooted in illusion...instead of claiming that your view is from the 'real world' instead go back to the Qur'an and Sunnah to learn what actually is the real world and how we Muslims should really act in the 'real world'

:facepalm:

[cricfan4ever]

You say you are yet to see a religious reason why you should not celebrate christmas,if I show you evidence from quran and sunnah that it is forbidden and can take you out of the fold of islam will you accept it?

brother I presented plenty of evidence already and he still refuses to accept !!! with that said, one more time won't hurt :D

[James]

'real world' has been defined in the Qur'an and Sunnah

don't necessarily agree with this...the revelations came many centuries ago now. as much as some people would like to believe otherwise, monotheism and twenty-first century society can sometimes be incompatible

[cricfan4ever]

don't necessarily agree with this...the revelations came many centuries ago now. as much as some people would like to believe otherwise, monotheism and twenty-first century society can sometimes be incompatible

Modern world is indeed incompatible with Islam because it has gone back to the days of Ignorance before the Qur'an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)...Islam is compatible for all times, from the beginning of human civilization to the end of it. It is us who have gone away from the path of Light back to the path of Darkness...

[James]

More than one definition of the real world to be honest...

[DeadlyVenom]

Modern world is indeed incompatible with Islam because it has gone back to the days of Ignorance before the Qur'an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)...Islam is compatible for all times, from the beginning of human civilization to the end of it. It is us who have gone away from the path of Light back to the path of Darkness...

What do you suggest we do?

[Waq]

You say you are yet to see a religious reason why you should not celebrate christmas,if I show you evidence from quran and sunnah that it is forbidden and can take you out of the fold of islam will you accept it?

Feel free to present the evidence of why having a meal with family on Christmas day and exchanging presents is forbidden in Islam.

Could you also define what you mean by celebration? I do not go to Church/Mass for Christmas.

[azhar329]

What do you suggest we do?

We all need to study and learn true, authentic Islam, the Quran and the Sunnah, worship Allah alone, no shirk or worshipping other saints, graves etc, try our best to implement what we learn (praying 5 times a day, fasting etc) and inshaAllah we will be successful in this life and the hereafter.

Allah knows best.

[KingKhanWC]

Waq, any chance of a reply to my post?

[cricfan4ever]

What do you suggest we do?

of course revive Islam in all facets of our life not just restricted to Ibadah and Ikhlaaq...Islam needs to return in Politics, Economics, Social and Judicial as that is the way for us to really witness & experience its blessing after all this Deen is the complete way of life!!! :D

and this revival should be a collective one, not an individual one...

[azhar329]

To waq, you wanted to know of a religous reason why you shoudnt celebrate christmas:

authentic hadeeth (Abu Dawood) whereby the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) stated that "whoever imitates a people is one of them". By celebrating christmas which is not an Islamic celebration sanctioned by the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) a person has imitated the non muslims.

We have our 2 eids and jummah every friday which are special days for us, therefore, to celebrate things like mothers day, valentines, xmas etc is incorrect and the danger is that the above hadeeth can apply to us.

Allah knows best

[Waq]

To waq, you wanted to know of a religous reason why you shoudnt celebrate christmas:

authentic hadeeth (Abu Dawood) whereby the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) stated that "whoever imitates a people is one of them". By celebrating christmas which is not an Islamic celebration sanctioned by the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) a person has imitated the non muslims.

We have our 2 eids and jummah every friday which are special days for us, therefore, to celebrate things like mothers day, valentines, xmas etc is incorrect and the danger is that the above hadeeth can apply to us.

Allah knows best

The hadeeth you have quoted says nothing about having a meal and exchanging presents.

In fact, it is a hadeeth that can be interpreted in many ways. Let's be simplistic about the hadeeth and assume that all Jews wear jeans. Does that mean anybody who wears jeans becomes a Jew? This is a very simple example but going by the literal interpretation of the hadeeth is correct.

Hadeeth's can be complimented by other Hadeeth's. There are some that preach that we should respect our neighbours and participate/share in their joy, are there not?

The quoted Hadeeth is very subjective. I may see it as valid if I attend church? I may see it as valid if I ignore my Islamic obligations and only celebrate Diwali and not Eid.

In summary, I feel you have not provided conclusive proof.

Ultimately, I am Muslim and proud. I am not insecure about my faith and feel no insecurities by celebrating Christmas at home with my family. I truly believe there is no such concept in Islam that prohibits this and I am yet to see conclusive proof. We can all manipulate the Quran or Hadeeth, should we wish.

As one poster said in another thread, we take all things literally as Sunnah but if that truly was the case then we should all travel on camels!

[cricfan4ever]

The hadeeth you have quoted says nothing about having a meal and exchanging presents.

In fact, it is a hadeeth that can be interpreted in many ways. Let's be simplistic about the hadeeth and assume that all Jews wear jeans. Does that mean anybody who wears jeans becomes a Jew? This is a very simple example but going by the literal interpretation of the hadeeth is correct.

Hadeeth's can be complimented by other Hadeeth's. There are some that preach that we should respect our neighbours and participate/share in their joy, are there not?

The quoted Hadeeth is very subjective. I may see it as valid if I attend church? I may see it as valid if I ignore my Islamic obligations and only celebrate Diwali and not Eid.

In summary, I feel you have not provided conclusive proof.

Ultimately, I am Muslim and proud. I am not insecure about my faith and feel no insecurities by celebrating Christmas at home with my family. I truly believe there is no such concept in Islam that prohibits this and I am yet to see conclusive proof. We can all manipulate the Quran or Hadeeth, should we wish.

As one poster said in another thread, we take all things literally as Sunnah but if that truly was the case then we should all travel on camels!

by celebrating Christmas you are indeed imitating them as it is their ritual or custom...and having a meal, decorating the tree etc. are definitely part of Non-Islamic customs which are rejected and forbidden for us!

besides Christmas goes against the Islamic Creed of Tawheed...

you have to see how Christmas originated, it began as something wrong to begin with, so just because today in your view it is not celebrated for that reason, it is still wrong because Christmas still remains Christmas, heck foolish ideas like that of Santa have been incorporated into this day which further adds weight to prohibition of its Celebration as it is built on 'fantasy'...

that hadith provided by brother Azhar is conclusive proof, but if you still want to carry on in denial than may Allah (swt) guide you...

[azhar329]

The hadeeth you have quoted says nothing about having a meal and exchanging presents.

In fact, it is a hadeeth that can be interpreted in many ways. Let's be simplistic about the hadeeth and assume that all Jews wear jeans. Does that mean anybody who wears jeans becomes a Jew? This is a very simple example but going by the literal interpretation of the hadeeth is correct.

Hadeeth's can be complimented by other Hadeeth's. There are some that preach that we should respect our neighbours and participate/share in their joy, are there not?

The quoted Hadeeth is very subjective. I may see it as valid if I attend church? I may see it as valid if I ignore my Islamic obligations and only celebrate Diwali and not Eid.

In summary, I feel you have not provided conclusive proof.

Ultimately, I am Muslim and proud. I am not insecure about my faith and feel no insecurities by celebrating Christmas at home with my family. I truly believe there is no such concept in Islam that prohibits this and I am yet to see conclusive proof. We can all manipulate the Quran or Hadeeth, should we wish.

As one poster said in another thread, we take all things literally as Sunnah but if that truly was the case then we should all travel on camels!

You have completely missed the point, Islam is a complete way of life and the deen is perfect, no additions and subtractions from it. Do you agree that for a deed to be accepted by Allah it has to satisfy two conditions: 1. It has to be done for the sake of Allah alone. 2. It has to be done in accordance with the sunnah. Now did the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wassallam) ever celebrate any non muslim festival, the answer is NO. Therefore, we shouldnt do it either.

The problem with people like you is that there comes a point when they say things like "riding on camels, live in mud huts", which are totally irrelevant. It would be better for you to admit the truth and your weakness to wish to participate as opposed to justifying it with your own illogical arguments.

And if you are sincere in wanting to know the truth about this, inshaAllah I hope you are as it affects your deen, then please click on the link and there are about 16 similiar questions which have been answered with evidences re: non muslim festivals.

http://islamqa.info/en/cat/2021

Allah knows best.

[Waq]

Quoted from KingKhanWC's post:

There is nothing wrong with eating those meats but to do them on a specific day is following a pagan ritual, which Christmas is.

Pagan ritual or not, surely there is nothing wrong with having a meal. Hindu's like firework on Diwali and so do I. I embrace other cultures and I feel no less Muslim for it.


I'm not judging you or your family, for all I know you guys are better Muslims than most including me.

Personally I believe kids should be told what the parents feel to be true. I see little point in telling kids fairy stories and making them believe they are true. I don't see any positive benefit for the child.

I respect this belief of yours as we all have different parenting styles but has little relevance to the debate.


Salat is very important as you know. It's far more important than eating Turkey or opening presents. I just wondered if those Muslims who do the whole Christmas ritual/routine also make their kids pray Salat on the same day.

I see what you are saying about Salat but in a roundabout way, you are effectively trying to judge who is a good Muslim or not or surely this question has no relevance?

As for religous reasons, we are told not to follow Pagan rituals, this is a well known part of Islam. Also there is a reasoning known as footsteps of the Shaytan.

I have already answered this at length on this thread

[Waq]

Azhar329 and CricFan4Ever,

I have given my argument on why I believe the quoted Hadeeth is not conclusive. You are free to reply to my points but instead I feel that you are saying that I should believe it and take it as a given.

The quoted Hadeeth can be interpreted in many ways including my lame Jews wearing Jeans example. It also may be strengthened if I actually worshipped in a Church and not a Mosque.