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Saj
3rd March 2008, 20:42
I recall a relative of mine saying that it was haram to have your palm read, is that true ?

By the way I have no intention of having my palm read but was just interested to find out?

lodge_boy
3rd March 2008, 20:49
well when i asked my mom can i have my palm read? she said NO and said its Haram in islam and told me if i have it read i'll get kicked out of my house!

akram_rejuvinated
3rd March 2008, 21:20
curious... what does haram mean? i think i could count atleast three threads a week on what is haram according to islam. does it mean you should not do it, or you should avoid it or is it of no spiritual significance.

and judging by the volume of stuff that is evidentally haram, maybe a better question would be to ask, what is not haram? for instance, is the study of physical sciences without a reference to a creator etc haram? is a secular society haram? is democracy haram?

TAK
3rd March 2008, 21:21
no saj, it's just plain stupid

Pak_cricketer
3rd March 2008, 21:27
curious... what does haram mean? i think i could count atleast three threads a week on what is haram according to islam. does it mean you should not do it, or you should avoid it or is it of no spiritual significance.

and judging by the volume of stuff that is evidentally haram, maybe a better question would be to ask, what is not haram? for instance, is the study of physical sciences without a reference to a creator etc haram? is a secular society haram? is democracy haram?

Haram is basically stuff not approved by Islam. Democracy is not Haram since its considered an essential of life.

akram_rejuvinated
3rd March 2008, 21:30
Haram is basically stuff not approved by Islam. Democracy is not Haram since its considered an essential of life.
so there a comprehensive database of what is approved or disapproved? has this database been periodically updated? and if it is indeed updated, who is the authority on its contents?

akram_rejuvinated
3rd March 2008, 21:31
no saj, it's just plain stupid
besides that... calling palm reading stupid is like calling a donkey 'dumb'; redundant.

12thMan
3rd March 2008, 21:42
It is haram if bad predictions are made and you take them seriuosly. I will ask Miss Cleo next time I call

Pak_cricketer
3rd March 2008, 21:50
so there a comprehensive database of what is approved or disapproved? has this database been periodically updated? and if it is indeed updated, who is the authority on its contents?
The Quran is the whole book that goes into detail about each thing. It makes it clear what is right and what is wrong. It hasn't been edited ever since it put forth on this earth and it never will.

About the 'edited by Pak_cricketer', I accidently pressed 'edit' instead of 'quote'. Nothing has been changed of your post.

akram_rejuvinated
3rd March 2008, 23:10
The Quran is the whole book that goes into detail about each thing. It makes it clear what is right and what is wrong. It hasn't been edited ever since it put forth on this earth and it never will.

About the 'edited by Pak_cricketer', I accidently pressed 'edit' instead of 'quote'. Nothing has been changed of your post.
well then i would expect considerable ambivalence about the permissibility of certain contentious practices since there is database and the voracity of any claim is based entirely upon the interpretation one derives from their personal examination of the text. for instance, surfing the net and posting on blogs and forums. what is the judgement on that?

and yet, i am curious though... when does an activity become haram? i.e. when does it cross the precipice beyond which is only cencure?

(dont worry about the edit thing, its quite alright)

Muddaser
3rd March 2008, 23:40
well then i would expect considerable ambivalence about the permissibility of certain contentious practices since there is database and the voracity of any claim is based entirely upon the interpretation one derives from their personal examination of the text. for instance, surfing the net and posting on blogs and forums. what is the judgement on that?

and yet, i am curious though... when does an activity become haram? i.e. when does it cross the precipice beyond which is only cencure?

(dont worry about the edit thing, its quite alright)

Hand reading, Star signs wtc are considered cause we believe our destiny is all in Gods hands.

Only God knows what our future holds. Not someone reading a persons hand.

speed_thrills
3rd March 2008, 23:43
Hand reading, Star signs wtc are considered cause we believe our destiny is all in Gods hands.

Only God knows what our future holds. Not someone reading a persons hand.

Is it so,

I have quite a few muslim friends, who are very much interested in Zodiac Signs and etc.

Indiafan
4th March 2008, 00:03
hmmm, i thought palm reading and Zodiac was more of a hindu practice (thoug i know the west follows it too!)

Plasma
4th March 2008, 00:03
Is it so,

I have quite a few muslim friends, who are very much interested in Zodiac Signs and etc.
Being interested is not as same as facts. Our fate has already been written and it has ben decided by god and only he knows our future.

Pak_cricketer
4th March 2008, 00:10
well then i would expect considerable ambivalence about the permissibility of certain contentious practices since there is database and the voracity of any claim is based entirely upon the interpretation one derives from their personal examination of the text. for instance, surfing the net and posting on blogs and forums. what is the judgement on that?

and yet, i am curious though... when does an activity become haram? i.e. when does it cross the precipice beyond which is only cencure?

(dont worry about the edit thing, its quite alright)

In the Quran it is mentioned that all knowledge given to man will eventually come out. Knowledge has no limits and one can go on for ever.

An activity becomes haram when it is directly forbidden in the Quran.

speed_thrills
4th March 2008, 00:10
Being interested is not as same as facts. Our fate has already been written and it has ben decided by god and only he knows our future.

Point taken,

but still they must be curious enough to know abt their future, thats y the interest.

Mercenary
4th March 2008, 00:27
From what I remember it's considered haram for two main reasons the first is because it leads to shirk. For example in Islam we believe that only Allah(swt) has knowledge of the future or the unseen. Even the Prophets and Messengers get their knowledge of the unseen from Allah (swt). Now by believing in a palm reader or soothsayer you are putting their knowledge of the unseen up in competition with God's knowledge of the unseen and therefore it becomes Shirk.

The other main reason for it being considered Haram is on the same basis that alcohol and gambling are considered Haram. Just like those two vices, fortune telling in moderation is largely harmless and just a bit of fun for most of us, we dont really take it seriously or even really believe what we're told.

However there are those who allow their lives to be completely taken over by fortune tellers or astrologers and who do everything they're told by these people. I'm sure we all know or have heard of the sort of people who wont leave the house without consulting with their 'guru' and their entire lives are run by these astrologers/fortune tellers.

It's in order to avoid placing so much power in the hands of these Guru or Sai type people as well as the Shirk angle that Islam has made fortune telling haram.


For those who dont know some of the terms used:

Haram - This is an action which is prohibited within Islamic law. Eg, eating pork, drinking alcohol, suicide, etc

Shirk - In Islam this is the one unforgiveable sin and it means 'to associate partners with God.' It's main meaning is worshipping someone other than God or worshipping other deities alongside God, ie Polytheism. However it can also refer to something less that that, for example within Islam we have certain attributes that can only belong to God like the most merciful, all-seeing, all-knowing, all-hearing, all-powerful and to give any of those attributes to any being other than God can also be shirk. In this particular example (In Islam) God is the only one who knows the future and by going to a fortune teller you are awarding that person an attribute that can only belong to God therefore you are committing Shirk.

akram_rejuvinated
4th March 2008, 00:42
In the Quran it is mentioned that all knowledge given to man will eventually come out. Knowledge has no limits and one can go on for ever.

An activity becomes haram when it is directly forbidden in the Quran.
regrettably you have not really answered my question. let me represent it: what determines of a certain activity is haram? palm readings are done for the sole purpose of entertainment, as are astrological readings. however, a similar practice... of celebrating religious holidays such as new years, Id, Diwali, Christmas etc on the basis of how the earth revolves around the earth, a phenomenon of absolutely negligible astronomical significance are rather celebrated.

in summary, while i understand the bit about destiny being determined by god as opposed to random lines on one's hand, but there are quite a few activities that i have noticed to be haram. its what is yet to be judged haram or not that i am curious towards.

Wiji
4th March 2008, 00:42
I recall a relative of mine saying that it was haram to have your palm read, is that true ?

By the way I have no intention of having my palm read but was just interested to find out?

When I read the thread title, I was so sure it was a sarcastic thread in response to all the other 'is this haraam' threads we've been having lately. But with the interest this thread has shown, I guess it's quite common in our society.

Mercenary
4th March 2008, 00:57
its what is yet to be judged haram or not that i am curious towards.

The Quran (Word of God) and the Sunnah (words and actions of the Prophet) are the two primary sources of Islamic law. Haram means a forbidden act according to either or both these sources of law.

The reason a lot of questions are asked about whether or not something is Haram in the modern era is because there are so many things around today that werent around 1400 years ago.

They way Islamic scholars work out whether any of these new things is Halal (Permissible) or Haram (Impermissible) is through something called Ijtihad. Ijtihad is the process of coming to a decision about something by applying principles derived from the Quran and Sunnah regarding that area of law or social life. This now becomes a legal ruling and can only be made by properly qualified Islamic Scholars.

EG a very simple example would be something like modern drugs such as Ecstasy or Speed. These werent around in the time of the Prophet so there is no rule for them as such. In light of that modern scholars would look at what area these drugs fall under and given their ability to both intoxicate and lead to serious addiction. Drugs would of course be covered by the principles that apply to alcohol and therefore they are Haram (Impermissible) just as alcohol is Haram.

Do you get it now?

Raul Madrid
4th March 2008, 00:59
One look at every Asian channel be it Indian Pak or Bangali will tell you how widespread these things are.

'Professor Mohammad' is the one that cracks me up :)

akram_rejuvinated
4th March 2008, 02:31
The Quran (Word of God) and the Sunnah (words and actions of the Prophet) are the two primary sources of Islamic law. Haram means a forbidden act according to either or both these sources of law.

The reason a lot of questions are asked about whether or not something is Haram in the modern era is because there are so many things around today that werent around 1400 years ago.

They way Islamic scholars work out whether any of these new things is Halal (Permissible) or Haram (Impermissible) is through something called Ijtihad. Ijtihad is the process of coming to a decision about something by applying principles derived from the Quran and Sunnah regarding that area of law or social life. This now becomes a legal ruling and can only be made by properly qualified Islamic Scholars.

EG a very simple example would be something like modern drugs such as Ecstasy or Speed. These werent around in the time of the Prophet so there is no rule for them as such. In light of that modern scholars would look at what area these drugs fall under and given their ability to both intoxicate and lead to serious addiction. Drugs would of course be covered by the principles that apply to alcohol and therefore they are Haram (Impermissible) just as alcohol is Haram.

Do you get it now?this i understood pretty much from the first response that there is a body passing these judgements based on their interpretations of the laws.

moreover, the example you presented is quite trivial. what about something more challenging: such as working for a financial firm such as morgan stanley for instance. or working for general foods, a department store that distributes whole foods that include meat products not compatible with islamic laws and traditions?

Muddaser
4th March 2008, 03:28
this i understood pretty much from the first response that there is a body passing these judgements based on their interpretations of the laws.

moreover, the example you presented is quite trivial. what about something more challenging: such as working for a financial firm such as morgan stanley for instance. or working for general foods, a department store that distributes whole foods that include meat products not compatible with islamic laws and traditions?

Eating Pork is forbidden.

Drinking Alcohol is forbidden.

And so on.

The rules are simple. No need to complicate them.

world_peace
4th March 2008, 08:09
you just got to go to pakistan yousrlef and see that on every corner there are people offering to read your palm. talk about these so called "islamic" country. absalute hypocracy.

SameerM
4th March 2008, 08:41
astronomy is a fundamental part of islam.. but beleiving what someone/horrorscopes telll u is wrong.

akram_rejuvinated
4th March 2008, 13:25
astronomy is a fundamental part of islam.. but beleiving what someone/horrorscopes telll u is wrong.
astronomy is central to every dogmatic religious belief of the pre modern times. astrology is not astronomy and is utter hogwash.


hey merc, quick question: is there free determination in islam? you mentioned that god knows one's fate before hand. does that mean that this individual is a puppet in time merely going through the life predetermined for this person? if so, then why and rather how can this individual be held accountable for their deeds? or is there free will and self determination. in that case, how can god know anyone's fate prior to the person making the choices in his life. simple law of casuality...

akram_rejuvinated
4th March 2008, 13:26
Eating Pork is forbidden.

Drinking Alcohol is forbidden.

And so on.

The rules are simple. No need to complicate them.
dude its easy on the issue of pork and alcohol. but everything in life is not as black and white. can you decisively label the activities i listed in my previous post's last paragragh?

MCMLXXXII
4th March 2008, 14:16
I am getting tired of all these threads about what is halal and what is haram. These are very strong words and us people use it very casually. Please take a little time to read this:


Warning against playing with the word “haram”

To conclude, we address the respectful scholars who tackle the word “haram” easily and set it free in their writings and fatwas that they should observe that Allah is watching over them in all that they say or do. They should also know that this word “haram” is very dangerous. It means that Allah’s Punishment is due on a certain act or saying, and should not be based upon guessing, whims, weak Hadiths, not even through an old book. It has to be supported by a clear, well-established text or valid consensus. If these last two are not found, then we revert the given act or saying to the original rule: "permissibility governing things". We do have a good example to follow from one of our earlier pious scholars. Imam Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) who said: “It was not the habit of those who preceded us, the early pious Muslims, who set good example for the following generations, to say, 'This is halal, and this is haram. But, they would say, ‘I hate such-and-such, and maintain such-and-such, but as for halal and haram, this is what may be called inventing lies concerning Allah. Did not you hear Allah’s Statement that reads, 'Say: Have you considered what provision Allah has sent down for you, how you have made of it lawful and unlawful? Say: Has Allah permitted you, or do you invent a lie concerning Allah?” (Yunus: 59) For, the halal is what Allah and His Messenger made lawful, and the haram is what Allah and His Messenger made unlawful.

On this issue in particular, I agree with what Merc has said earlier. An act itself may not be haram, but depending on what it is used for makes it permissible or not. take for example, adultery or fornication which is haram but when the same act occurs between married couples, Not only is it permissible but recommended. The simple act of getting the Palm read is not haram, one can certainly question its usefulness though. however believing in such things and believing in soothsayers is a form of shirk. And Shirk is an unforgivable sin.

MCMLXXXII
4th March 2008, 14:28
astronomy is central to every dogmatic religious belief of the pre modern times. astrology is not astronomy and is utter hogwash.


hey merc, quick question: is there free determination in islam? you mentioned that god knows one's fate before hand. does that mean that this individual is a puppet in time merely going through the life predetermined for this person? if so, then why and rather how can this individual be held accountable for their deeds? or is there free will and self determination. in that case, how can god know anyone's fate prior to the person making the choices in his life. simple law of casuality...


I will take a shot at this.

In Islam, we have free will. In fact that is one of the most important things given to man that makes us different from other creations. Allah created us with free will so that we will be free to choose whether we worship Allah or not. There was no point for creating Humans without free will as we would then have been like the angels, who worship Allah in complete obedience.

Now the question of Allah knowing one's fate beforehand, it is one of the qualities of Allah that he is omniscient, the All-knowing. He knows all that is occurring, he knows all that has occurred in the past and he knows what will occur in the future. This certainly does not mean that we lose all free will if Allah knows what we are going to do. It is like if you were a time traveler from the future, and you observed something that you had observed before, you know exactly what is going to happen, that does not mean everyone around you loses their free will.

Not only does Allah swt knows what will happen, he knows what will not happen, and if things had happened, how it would have turned out, he knows that too. He knows all permutations. It is hard to understand the concept of being omniscient. Also, you have to realize that the laws of Causality does not apply to Allah as he is timeless. Allah created the universe, the laws of the universe do not apply to him.

Big Daddy
4th March 2008, 23:36
2 Reasons,
It is said a nation back in the day was destroyed because they were avid palm readers and also heavy on astrological signs. And their knowledge was so sharp on this subject that they could predict things which man today with all his technology cant. Islamic literature doesnt name the race, but it could be the mayyans

2nd to gain the ability to read the palm or get the knowledge of a future or past event. the services of the jin have to be acquired. and this process involves doing shirk and kufr.
so there.

lodge_boy
5th March 2008, 14:22
you just got to go to pakistan yousrlef and see that on every corner there are people offering to read your palm. talk about these so called "islamic" country. absalute hypocracy.

how do you know? :13:

SameerM
5th March 2008, 15:11
If u beleive or act upon readings, horrorscopes etc, its shirk basically...

ur kind of saying that the palm reader is at par with Allah, therefore associating partners with him.

Vegitto1
5th March 2008, 17:00
Question for you Merc (since u posses more knowledge on this topic) If you hear on the news that heavy snow is going to fall where you live at a certain time. would you ignore the forecast or stay indoors?

pakistani_banda
5th March 2008, 19:35
its as i have heard. also i saw this greatest oxymoron. a hafiz of Quran who is a palmist. he comeson geo tv. i saw him at the book fair in fortress stadium a few days ago. i was with my dad and we were like wat the heck. his partner offered my dad to read his palm, but my dad simply refused :D .

MCMLXXXII
5th March 2008, 21:20
Question for you Merc (since u posses more knowledge on this topic) If you hear on the news that heavy snow is going to fall where you live at a certain time. would you ignore the forecast or stay indoors?
Bad anaolgy. weather forecasting is a science. The phenomenon can be re-created in a laboratory and tested many times to yield similar results. The same cannot be said about reading palms, you will not be able to find any scientific correlation with it.

Vegitto1
5th March 2008, 22:24
Bad anaolgy. weather forecasting is a science. The phenomenon can be re-created in a laboratory and tested many times to yield similar results. The same cannot be said about reading palms, you will not be able to find any scientific correlation with it.

Religion isn't a scientific concept either, does that mean it is meaningless?

Talisa
5th March 2008, 22:46
Hand reading, Star signs wtc are considered cause we believe our destiny is all in Gods hands.

Only God knows what our future holds. Not someone reading a persons hand.
I would say that was true of many religions.
I hate the fact that people are exploited by these palm readers.
Especially when they consult these people they are in a highly emotional state.

12thMan
5th March 2008, 22:50
I would say that was true of many religions.
I hate the fact that people are exploited by these palm readers.
Especially when they consult these people they are in a highly emotional state.
But it can be fun if a parrot was to pick your future :batman: no science is needed there but the highly developed perception and prediction of birds

Talisa
5th March 2008, 22:57
But it can be fun if a parrot was to pick your future :batman: no science is needed there but the highly developed perception and prediction of birds
:D
Parrots can be bad. :P

salman24
6th March 2008, 02:17
It's haram from what I know
I have heard scholars like Dr.Zakir Naik and Bilal Phillips speaking about this very strongly

the SHA
6th March 2008, 10:21
Ask the scholar...

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543358

world_peace
6th March 2008, 10:29
how do you know? :13:
because i just came back from pakistan :21: ...around 6 weeks ago

MMA
6th March 2008, 16:10
Bad anaolgy. weather forecasting is a science. The phenomenon can be re-created in a laboratory and tested many times to yield similar results. The same cannot be said about reading palms, you will not be able to find any scientific correlation with it.

Aghi doesn't Allah subhanawatala say that only he knows when it will rain.

Howmany times it happened that the weatherman says something and the next day its the something else.

Khalaf5
2nd May 2016, 15:16
Haram is basically stuff not approved by Islam. Democracy is not Haram since its considered an essential of life.


Democracy is Shirk. Democracy is when man legislated although Allah SWT is the only legislator. To rival Allah SWT in the act of legislation is major Shirk. Please don't take this lightly brother. ASK ANY REPUTABLE scholars. The only religion acceptable to Allah is Islam and Islam is a complete way of life. If you believe in democracy you are a kafir! Please look up 18:26 of the Quran. Jazakallahu khairan.

Lurker_Ind
2nd May 2016, 15:22
Democracy is Shirk. Democracy is when man legislated although Allah SWT is the only legislator. To rival Allah SWT in the act of legislation is major Shirk. Please don't take this lightly brother. ASK ANY REPUTABLE scholars. The only religion acceptable to Allah is Islam and Islam is a complete way of life. If you believe in democracy you are a kafir! Please look up 18:26 of the Quran. Jazakallahu khairan.

So only Sharia law is acceptable to real Muslims? Is that what you are trying to say? :murali

Muhammad10
2nd May 2016, 15:48
Please avoid derailing the thread.

From what I know palm-reading is a haram and pointless practice.

Lurker_Ind
2nd May 2016, 16:04
I agree that Palmistry and Astrology and auspicious days and months should be trashed and who so ever promotes this should be put in Jail.

IslamabadUnited
2nd May 2016, 16:12
Indians are good at palm reading.

IslamabadUnited
2nd May 2016, 16:15
I know a Indian person who's very accurate at telling you about your future.

anakin
2nd May 2016, 16:40
Is Palm reading haram because it doesn't work or it is haram to know one's fate?

Watsupdoc
2nd May 2016, 16:48
I know a Indian person who's very accurate at telling you about your future.

What did he predict? That you will wake up tomorrow and have breakfast?

90MPH
2nd May 2016, 17:25
If it doesn't make sense its probably not true.

IslamabadUnited
2nd May 2016, 17:30
What did he predict? That you will wake up tomorrow and have breakfast?

No, I didn't show him my hand. I don't know whether it's allowed in Islam or not. I am a bit uncomfortable about that. However, I went with a few friends who showed their hands and he was pretty accurate about the events that occurred in their lives.

IslamabadUnited
2nd May 2016, 17:31
Is Palm reading haram because it doesn't work or it is haram to know one's fate?

I think it's the second one.

anakin
2nd May 2016, 17:37
I think it's the second one.

Then does weather forecasting become Haram too??

IslamabadUnited
2nd May 2016, 17:40
Then does weather forecasting become Haram too??

I don't have much knowledge about that.

Stewie
2nd May 2016, 17:57
Then does weather forecasting become Haram too??

Weather forecasting is based on actual science. It is tried and tested and proven using the scientific method. For instance, you take poison, you die. Simple as that.

Palm reading is not a science. Its a pseudo art, it assumes a lot and therefore it can be put under the category of "ilm-e-ghaib" which only God possesses and nobody else can claim to have it. Therefore it is not permissible to believe in such stuff or believe in people who claim to know it.

Yossarian
2nd May 2016, 18:38
I know a Indian person who's very accurate at telling you about your future.If it's possible to foretell the future, whether by palm reading, astrology, horoscope, Tarot cards or via any other method (excluding scientific predictions such as weather forecasting), it then follows that 'future events' have already taken place and/or the future path has already been defined, all living things are simply following predefined instructions, and there is no such thing as free thought or free will.

You can't have it both ways. Free will & free thought cannot exist if the future was already predefined.

Hint: Chaos Theory and The Butterfly Effect.

IslamabadUnited
2nd May 2016, 19:34
If it's possible to foretell the future, whether by palm reading, astrology, horoscope, Tarot cards or via any other method (excluding scientific predictions such as weather forecasting), it then follows that 'future events' have already taken place and/or the future path has already been defined, all living things are simply following predefined instructions, and there is no such thing as free thought or free will.

You can't have it both ways. Free will & free thought cannot exist if the future was already predefined.

Hint: Chaos Theory and The Butterfly Effect.

Good.

anakin
2nd May 2016, 19:39
Weather forecasting is based on actual science. It is tried and tested and proven using the scientific method. For instance, you take poison, you die. Simple as that.

Palm reading is not a science. Its a pseudo art, it assumes a lot and therefore it can be put under the category of "ilm-e-ghaib" which only God possesses and nobody else can claim to have it. Therefore it is not permissible to believe in such stuff or believe in people who claim to know it.


Again, back to my question: Haram because its a seemingly a lie/fraud or because it tells the future?

You seem to go for the former here....

Is genetic research Haram?
Cloning/stem cell etc?
How about Artificial intelligence?
How about Aircrafts and Rockets?
All these were total fictions a few decades ago... and are now scientific realities.
So do Haram items evolve with progress of Science?
That really puts a wrench in the final true word claim, doesn't it?

anakin
2nd May 2016, 19:42
If it's possible to foretell the future, whether by palm reading, astrology, horoscope, Tarot cards or via any other method (excluding scientific predictions such as weather forecasting), it then follows that 'future events' have already taken place and/or the future path has already been defined, all living things are simply following predefined instructions, and there is no such thing as free thought or free will.

You can't have it both ways. Free will & free thought cannot exist if the future was already predefined.

Hint: Chaos Theory and The Butterfly Effect.


Oh yes it can, there can be scenarios where no matter what you do .. end result will be the same.

Your future is fixed no matter how much free will you exercise.

Stewie
2nd May 2016, 19:44
Oh yes it can, there can be scenarios where no matter what you do .. end result will be the same.

Your future is fixed no matter how much free will you exercise.

ridiculous. So you can use this logic to completely absolve yourself of any wrongdoing and claim future is fixed? I can let a person die or kill a person when I can choose to save him or not kill a person and in both scenarios the future is fixed for me?

Good luck selling that to saner minds!

Yossarian
2nd May 2016, 20:13
Oh yes it can, there can be scenarios where no matter what you do .. end result will be the same.

Your future is fixed no matter how much free will you exercise.What rubbish. When we're talking about the 'future', we're not talking about the next 5 minutes but rather a reasonable timescale. And neither are we talking about consequences of events that have already occurred, such as knowing someone's going to die within 6 months because they've already been diagnosed as being terminally ill, or knowing you're going to prison since the jury has already delivered a guilty verdict, or knowing you're going to fail your exams since you've missed all your classes due to too many late night parties.

Care to give one of these scenarios you refer to where your future will be the same no matter what you do? I'll guarantee I'll be able to blow holes in that scenario without any effort whatsoever.

Watsupdoc
2nd May 2016, 20:14
No, I didn't show him my hand. I don't know whether it's allowed in Islam or not. I am a bit uncomfortable about that. However, I went with a few friends who showed their hands and he was pretty accurate about the events that occurred in their lives.

Lol this whole Palm reading stuff is BS.

Nostalgic
3rd May 2016, 01:12
Having your palm red is a tradition at weddings. It is a tedious process, and the end result is the henna dyes it a reddish brown at best. And it washes off too.

anakin
3rd May 2016, 02:54
What rubbish. When we're talking about the 'future', we're not talking about the next 5 minutes but rather a reasonable timescale. And neither are we talking about consequences of events that have already occurred, such as knowing someone's going to die within 6 months because they've already been diagnosed as being terminally ill, or knowing you're going to prison since the jury has already delivered a guilty verdict, or knowing you're going to fail your exams since you've missed all your classes due to too many late night parties.

Care to give one of these scenarios you refer to where your future will be the same no matter what you do? I'll guarantee I'll be able to blow holes in that scenario without any effort whatsoever.

You will dead in about 200 hundred years no matter what you do?

You cannot change your blood relations no matter what you do? You will be you father's son and brother's brother.

Ok, lets jump to your definition of "Haram", I am pretty sure twisting the flow of time would fall under Godly realm and so would Cloning and most medical research.

Failing an exam because you missed all the classes is certainly not true. I know that for a fact!
And somebody studying hard or not studying at all also doesn't mean different grades for the students, Some Professors are quite benevolent.

There are big holes in your concept of Haram. (If you claim is fixed and final). As i have posted before there were several thousands of things that humans couldn't do in the past but are able to do now. But, of course, like all the so called pious people in the past, you can keep updating your database of Haram items and call it permanent. (I am sure having such a conversation with a Kafir like me would have been considered haram at some point of time or right now in some place).

You have to accept the database of Haram items has evolved over time. and that implies Religion evolves :O.
Don't go there man!!
Saj IslamabadUnited: Palm reading is a fraud as most evidence suggest, you don't need a Religious dogma to certify common sense.
That basically mocks Common sense.

anakin
3rd May 2016, 02:56
Lol this whole Palm reading stuff is BS.

Hoping to change people's thought process over the Internet .. :P

We are all guilty!!

Nostalgic
3rd May 2016, 03:44
I once considered reading a palm, but the leaves were too high for me to discern much. I think I saw a shape in one leaf that looked vaguely like Altaf Hussain, but I wasn't about to climb the tree to find out for sure.

street cricketer
3rd May 2016, 05:33
It is bogus. But so are many other practices in the world. But that doesn't stop people from believing in them.

Do whatever floats your boat.

JaDed
3rd May 2016, 06:26
Its 'collective' prediction ,imagine someone predicting 50 things for you out of which 1 comes true that's not impossible but creates a belief in the person.

Tbh its similar to religion without logic and not scientific but atleast the palm readers don't go kill or convert people.

Yossarian
3rd May 2016, 08:25
You will dead in about 200 hundred years no matter what you do?And that's an example of your 'scenario' of predicting the future via palm reading (or astrology, horoscope or some other mumbo jumbo) whereby the future never changes no matter what you do? :facepalm:


You cannot change your blood relations no matter what you do? You will be you father's son and brother's brother.
What's that got to do with being able to 'predict the future' ?


Ok, lets jump to your definition of "Haram", I am pretty sure twisting the flow of time would fall under Godly realm and so would Cloning and most medical research.
I haven't said anything about 'haram'. My posts stated the impossibility of predicting the future and explained why that is so from a logical point of view. To me 'palm reading', or similar, is simply mumbo jumbo, and 'halal' or 'haram' is not even relevant.


Failing an exam because you missed all the classes is certainly not true. I know that for a fact!
And somebody studying hard or not studying at all also doesn't mean different grades for the students, Some Professors are quite benevolent. You really need to read what someone wrote before writing some rubbish in attempting to refute it. Here, this is what I wrote
And neither are we talking about consequences of events that have already occurred, such as knowing someone's going to die within 6 months because they've already been diagnosed as being terminally ill, or knowing you're going to prison since the jury has already delivered a guilty verdict, or knowing you're going to fail your exams since you've missed all your classes due to too many late night parties.


There are big holes in your concept of Haram. (If you claim is fixed and final). As i have posted before there were several thousands of things that humans couldn't do in the past but are able to do now. But, of course, like all the so called pious people in the past, you can keep updating your database of Haram items and call it permanent. (I am sure having such a conversation with a Kafir like me would have been considered haram at some point of time or right now in some place).

You have to accept the database of Haram items has evolved over time. and that implies Religion evolves :O.
Don't go there man!!
Saj IslamabadUnited: Palm reading is a fraud as most evidence suggest, you don't need a Religious dogma to certify common sense.
That basically mocks Common sense.Why can't you get it into your head that 'haram' or 'halal' is not even relevant in terms using palm reading, tarot cards, horoscope, astrology or some other mumbo jumbo to 'predict' the future. I suggested, and suggest again, you look into Chaos Theory and The Butterfly Effect as to why that is so.

By the way, you seem to be confused. My previous post was in response to your post where you stated .... here let me remind you.
Oh yes it can, there can be scenarios where no matter what you do .. end result will be the same.

Your future is fixed no matter how much free will you exercise.Do you not understand that when someone says that 'the future is fixed' they are not referring to events which are based on logic, on mathematics, on quantum physics, but that an individuals future will follow a certain path no matter what choices they make or what actions they take because the consequences for them will always be the same - and that is clearly a load of rubbish.

anakin
3rd May 2016, 10:56
And that's an example of your 'scenario' of predicting the future via palm reading (or astrology, horoscope or some other mumbo jumbo) whereby the future never changes no matter what you do? :facepalm:

What's that got to do with being able to 'predict the future' ?

I haven't said anything about 'haram'. My posts stated the impossibility of predicting the future and explained why that is so from a logical point of view. To me 'palm reading', or similar, is simply mumbo jumbo, and 'halal' or 'haram' is not even relevant.

You really need to read what someone wrote before writing some rubbish in attempting to refute it. Here, this is what I wrote

Why can't you get it into your head that 'haram' or 'halal' is not even relevant in terms using palm reading, tarot cards, horoscope, astrology or some other mumbo jumbo to 'predict' the future. I suggested, and suggest again, you look into Chaos Theory and The Butterfly Effect as to why that is so.

By the way, you seem to be confused. My previous post was in response to your post where you stated .... here let me remind you.Do you not understand that when someone says that 'the future is fixed' they are not referring to events which are based on logic, on mathematics, on quantum physics, but that an individuals future will follow a certain path no matter what choices they make or what actions they take because the consequences for them will always be the same - and that is clearly a load of rubbish.

I have clearly shared my views on "Palm reading" but I have issues with with religious rationale behind the label, "Haram".

None of your reasoning attempts to address my basic query about that. but goes tagent and in return finds even more tangential replies. The thread is about classification of palm reading as "Haram", so I am just getting clarification on the reasoning about Haram?

PS: We can continue to argue over current line of question and go off the rails.. :)

Thivagar
3rd May 2016, 13:31
It is bogus. But so are many other practices in the world. But that doesn't stop people from believing in them.

Do whatever floats your boat.

Do you believe in Astrology ?

jeetu
3rd May 2016, 13:33
There is nothing wrong about Palm reading as long as its not taken seriously. It gave me popularity during college days. All you need is to get few predictions right to be popular. Its pretty easy to manipulate people while reading palm, face reading and reading body language is a handy skill when you are reading palm.

street cricketer
3rd May 2016, 13:34
Do you believe in Astrology ?

No but my mother does. She sees the daily rasi palan without fail:narine

I know some astrologer has deeply affected you too:srini

kaayal
3rd May 2016, 13:40
No but my mother does. She sees the daily rasi palan without fail:narine

I know some astrologer has deeply affected you too:srini

So what's your jathagam tells about you?:D

street cricketer
3rd May 2016, 13:55
So what's your jathagam tells about you?:D

Don't they see the jadhagam only during match making?

I ain't ready for that yet:narine

Rasi palan is different from jadhagam, where some guy tells some 4-5 scenarios for people of all age groups so that something gets right in the end.

Example,

It goes like "You'll have people causing trouble for you in your work place" (like that doesn't happen to anyone).

"Middle aged couples may have some misunderstanding between them. It is important to adjust and avoid unnecessary fights" (Yeah, never happens totally).

"Old aged people may have some ailments this year. It is important to take care of your health".

And many more such insightful prophecies.

kaayal
3rd May 2016, 14:01
Don't they see the jadhagam only during match making?

I ain't ready for that yet:narine

Rasi palan is different from jadhagam, where some guy tells some 4-5 scenarios for people of all age groups so that something gets right in the end.

Example,

It goes like "You'll have people causing trouble for you in your work place" (like that doesn't happen to anyone).

"Middle aged couples may have some misunderstanding between them. It is important to adjust and avoid unnecessary fights" (Yeah, never happens totally).

"Old aged people may have some ailments this year. It is important to take care of your health".

And many more such insightful prophecies.

Lol thought you were into this shaadi market and your mother is waiting for your turn to come..:))

Yossarian
3rd May 2016, 14:09
I have clearly shared my views on "Palm reading" but I have issues with with religious rationale behind the label, "Haram".

None of your reasoning attempts to address my basic query about that. but goes tagent and in return finds even more tangential replies. The thread is about classification of palm reading as "Haram", so I am just getting clarification on the reasoning about Haram?

PS: We can continue to argue over current line of question and go off the rails.. :)I couldn't care less about this nonsense of 'haram' or 'halal' in this context since the mere concept of 'predicting the future' using palm reading, horoscopes, astrology, tarot cards or any other mumbo jumbo is a stupid notion in my opinion.

You obviously disagree with my assertion, since you've already posted to that effect, that the future path is dependent upon the choices that one makes and hence that's why the future cannot be 'predicted'. Fine, that's your opinion, since you believe that the future is fixed and not dependent upon the choices one makes..

But I don't know what that has to do with some of the other rubbish you posted, such as "You cannot change your blood relations no matter what you do? You will be you father's son and brother's brother"

street cricketer
3rd May 2016, 14:13
Lol thought you were into this shaadi market and your mother is waiting for your turn to come..:))

Na, my elder brother got married just a few months back. But he's quite older than me and I'm not getting married anytime soon. Don't get fooled by my threads. Obviously that hasn't deterred my pesky relatives saying "you're next!" with a hysterical laugh everytime they meet me though.

IslamabadUnited
3rd May 2016, 14:15
Lol this whole Palm reading stuff is BS.

Yes, I agree.

Yossarian
3rd May 2016, 14:17
Do you believe in Astrology ?Nope. It's just another version of the mumbo jumbo, akin to palm reading, tarot cards etc, used by con artists to fool those who are willing and ready to be fooled.

Thivagar
3rd May 2016, 15:29
Nope. It's just another version of the mumbo jumbo, akin to palm reading, tarot cards etc, used by con artists to fool those who are willing and ready to be fooled.

I do, I see it works. I believe it.

Yossarian
3rd May 2016, 16:05
I do, I see it works. I believe it.In which case, you believe that the future is predefined and we're all simply actors in a play following a script, and whilst we think we're making choices, making decisions, in fact we're not?
Because if we're making choices, and making our own decisions instead of following a predefined, pre-written script, then it's impossible to predict one's future, via palm reading, astrology, tarot cards or any other mumbo jumbo.

anakin
4th May 2016, 03:14
I couldn't care less about this nonsense of 'haram' or 'halal' in this context since the mere concept of 'predicting the future' using palm reading, horoscopes, astrology, tarot cards or any other mumbo jumbo is a stupid notion in my opinion.

You obviously disagree with my assertion, since you've already posted to that effect, that the future path is dependent upon the choices that one makes and hence that's why the future cannot be 'predicted'.

This thread was on the topic Hala/ Haram... and my query was regarding to that label..

If we are to discuss about predictions and prophecies etc. we can rumble in a fresh thread :)
I don't mind a healthy chat till we start blaming each other for going off topic in the heat of arguments!

AlphaFighter
4th May 2016, 03:30
Well i can tell you about this. In January when i moved back from Alberta to Ontario, i went to a palm reader because i had so many questions in my mind which were giving me sleepless nights. So i went to 3-4 palm readers and psychics in 2 days in January because i wanted to know from them whether i will be able to get the NCA girl that i really liked and whether it was worth pursuing.

They told me exactly what i wanted and needed to hear. Yes you will absolutely get the girl, add her on facebook and watch, you will be very successful in your professional career and the next couple of months will be the most wonderful for you.

What followed was the most unbelievable spell of bad fortune and luck. I got laid off by the 2 accounting firms i joined in a spell of 3-4 months and my fortunes with this girl are pretty much up in the air at this point.

My baby sister absolutely demolished me when i told her about going to a palm reader and psychic and that my prayers as a result will not be answered for 45 days. Well the 45 day time period has passed so hopefully that shouldn't be a problem. But golden lesson Learnt, avoid these palm readers and psychics at all costs, they only bring bad luck and nothing else in our lives.

Yossarian
4th May 2016, 05:39
This thread was on the topic Hala/ Haram... and my query was regarding to that label..

If we are to discuss about predictions and prophecies etc. we can rumble in a fresh thread :)
I don't mind a healthy chat till we start blaming each other for going off topic in the heat of arguments!Stop trying to squirm out of a line of discussion that you were keen to jump into, but now that your argument has been shown to be full of holes, you want me to back out?

Here let me remind you:



If it's possible to foretell the future, whether by palm reading, astrology, horoscope, Tarot cards or via any other method (excluding scientific predictions such as weather forecasting), it then follows that 'future events' have already taken place and/or the future path has already been defined, all living things are simply following predefined instructions, and there is no such thing as free thought or free will.

You can't have it both ways. Free will & free thought cannot exist if the future was already predefined.

Hint: Chaos Theory and The Butterfly Effect.Oh yes it can, there can be scenarios where no matter what you do .. end result will be the same.

Your future is fixed no matter how much free will you exercise.


Notice how there's no mention of 'haram' in your reply to my post?

Besides, my posts are discussing the topic of the thread, are discussing halal/haram, by pointing out that they have no relevance in regards to predicting the future via palm reading since the notion of predicting the future via such mumbo jumbo is ludicrous.

anakin
4th May 2016, 05:48
Stop trying to squirm out of a line of discussion that you were keen to jump into, but now that your argument has been shown to be full of holes, you want me to back out?

Here let me remind you:




Notice how there's no mention of 'haram' in your reply to my post?

Besides, my posts are discussing the topic of the thread, are discussing halal/haram, by pointing out that they have no relevance in regards to predicting the future via palm reading since the notion of predicting the future via such mumbo jumbo is ludicrous.

As I said "we went off the rails" .... My initial querry was still about the label of "Haram" which got deflected while discussing with you. I have shared my views about Palm reading too.

But being able to predict the future... we can surely discuss the possibilites on that.

Yossarian
4th May 2016, 05:53
Well i can tell you about this. In January when i moved back from Alberta to Ontario, i went to a palm reader because i had so many questions in my mind which were giving me sleepless nights. So i went to 3-4 palm readers and psychics in 2 days in January because i wanted to know from them whether i will be able to get the NCA girl that i really liked and whether it was worth pursuing.

They told me exactly what i wanted and needed to hear. Yes you will absolutely get the girl, add her on facebook and watch, you will be very successful in your professional career and the next couple of months will be the most wonderful for you.

What followed was the most unbelievable spell of bad fortune and luck. I got laid off by the 2 accounting firms i joined in a spell of 3-4 months and my fortunes with this girl are pretty much up in the air at this point.

My baby sister absolutely demolished me when i told her about going to a palm reader and psychic and that my prayers as a result will not be answered for 45 days. Well the 45 day time period has passed so hopefully that shouldn't be a problem. But golden lesson Learnt, avoid these palm readers and psychics at all costs, they only bring bad luck and nothing else in our lives.So you believe in luck, as well as believing that prayers get 'answered'? Does that mean you believe that the laws of physics and the laws of nature get interrupted and changed just because you have prayed? And had you not prayed, the results of cause and effect would have continued on their original path, but prayer changed that path?

Yossarian
4th May 2016, 05:57
As I said "we went off the rails" .... My initial querry was still about the label of "Haram" which got deflected while discussing with you. I have shared my views about Palm reading too.

But being able to predict the future... we can surely discuss the possibilites on that.Pointless. Since such 'possibilities' don't exist.

anakin
4th May 2016, 06:15
Pointless. Since such 'possibilities' don't exist.

Will start a new thread on the topic, while this thread particularly talks about religious view on something as "haram"

Yossarian
4th May 2016, 06:23
Will start a new thread on the topic, while this thread particularly talks about religious view on something as "haram"About what? About something that is impossible when looked at logically?

anakin
4th May 2016, 06:35
About what? About something that is impossible when looked at logically?

You need to open your mind to the possibilities... :)

Logic dictates we can predict the future

Yossarian
4th May 2016, 07:22
You need to open your mind to the possibilities... :)

Logic dictates we can predict the futureRubbish.

anakin
4th May 2016, 07:33
Rubbish.

That's what the Church said when Copernicus said Earth revolved around the Sun :P

Yesterday's fantasies today's modern science.
The limitation is about our capability to account for all the variables and process them fast enough to predict the future.

Here is quote from one of my professor while showing a weather forecast model from 19th century,

"This model was excellent in predicting tomorrow's weather , but it took a week to calculate it"

We lack the adequate variables and processing capacity to do so.. but our technology is advancing pretty fast.

Yossarian
4th May 2016, 08:14
That's what the Church said when Copernicus said Earth revolved around the Sun :P

Yesterday's fantasies today's modern science.
The limitation is about our capability to account for all the variables and process them fast enough to predict the future.

Here is quote from one of my professor while showing a weather forecast model from 19th century,

"This model was excellent in predicting tomorrow's weather , but it took a week to calculate it"

We lack the adequate variables and processing capacity to do so.. but our technology is advancing pretty fast.You're confusing scientific modelling and predictions of events that are following the laws of physics, science and nature with 'mumbo jumbo predicting the future events' which revolve around humans making choices, and the consequences of those choices leading to differing outcomes. The latter has nothing to do with the former. Go and read about The Butterfly Effect.

Next you'll be posting that you believe in time travel as depicted in science fiction novels and films, where someone time travels to the past, has a child, which turns out to be themselves.

anakin
4th May 2016, 10:15
You're confusing scientific modelling and predictions of events that are following the laws of physics, science and nature with 'mumbo jumbo predicting the future events' which revolve around humans making choices, and the consequences of those choices leading to differing outcomes. The latter has nothing to do with the former. Go and read about The Butterfly Effect.

Next you'll be posting that you believe in time travel as depicted in science fiction novels and films, where someone time travels to the past, has a child, which turns out to be themselves.

Human choices can be predicted and modelled, to a lot of extent we do. The precision will only improve with technology and our ability to process data faster.

Bub, get a hold of yourself before going into some random rant again and again and again. just because you have seen a movie, and has some cool sounding scientific theory doesn't mean it educates you fully on the topic.

Yossarian
4th May 2016, 10:57
Human choices can be predicted and modelled, to a lot of extent we do. The precision will only improve with technology and our ability to process data faster.

Bub, get a hold of yourself before going into some random rant again and again and again. just because you have seen a movie, and has some cool sounding scientific theory doesn't mean it educates you fully on the topic.You've been watching too much science fiction. For a start, you can't even tell the difference between scientific modelling (ie 'predictions') that are simply following the laws of mathematics and physics, as opposed to mumbo jumbo 'predicting the future vis-a-vis an individual's future life' despite the fact they, and everyone else around them, are making choices and decisions every moment of their lives, and each one of those choices/decisions has an impact on the future course of events pertaining to that individual.

But if you wish to believe such mumbo jumbo, that's your prerogative. So carry on believing if it makes you feel good.

anakin
4th May 2016, 13:14
You've been watching too much science fiction. For a start, you can't even tell the difference between scientific modelling (ie 'predictions') that are simply following the laws of mathematics and physics, as opposed to mumbo jumbo 'predicting the future vis-a-vis an individual's future life' despite the fact they, and everyone else around them, are making choices and decisions every moment of their lives, and each one of those choices/decisions has an impact on the future course of events pertaining to that individual.

But if you wish to believe such mumbo jumbo, that's your prerogative. So carry on believing if it makes you feel good.


Bub, keep repeating the word "mumbo jumbo" and we get to the debates of 5yr olds.
If you can't have a mature discussion .. Adios !!

Yossarian
4th May 2016, 15:07
Bub, keep repeating the word "mumbo jumbo" and we get to the debates of 5yr olds.
If you can't have a mature discussion .. Adios !!Ah, so you have a problem with the words "mumbo jumbo". Don't worry, here I'll use "hocus-pocus" instead. For that's what it is. As for "5 yr olds", you're right in the sense that those older than 5 years should be slowly weaned off believing in fairy tales of predicting someone's future, whether by palm reading, horoscopes, astrology or any other such means.

anakin
4th May 2016, 15:16
Ah, so you have a problem with the words "mumbo jumbo". Don't worry, here I'll use "hocus-pocus" instead. For that's what it is. As for "5 yr olds", you're right in the sense that those older than 5 years should be slowly weaned off believing in fairy tales of predicting someone's future, whether by palm reading, horoscopes, astrology or any other such means.

The point is you have no argument expect using childish language. Your intelligence is limited by the language you chose!

Yossarian
4th May 2016, 15:27
The point is you have no argument expect using childish language. Your intelligence is limited by the language you chose!This coming from someone who believes in fairy tales of predicting peoples future lives and specific events within that using palm reading and similar methods. :facepalm:

Square Drive
4th May 2016, 21:09
Haram? Not sure.

Stupid? Yes.