The Somali Community in the UK

[Saj]

I dont want to "tar every Somali living in the UK with ther same brush", but it seems to me that they are really creating some problems for themselves.

I get the impression that they have taken the stance to not really mix with other communities, have resorted to crime to fuel their wealth with a number of Somali gangs around the country in the headlines. Their kids seem to be doing very poorly at school and to me they just seem to be rather arrogant and cocky.

Considering they have come from a war torn country and they are looking to rebuild their lives in the UK, they arent making too many friends in the UK are they?

[SameerM]

I think SOME somalis are ... but some that i have seen in the MK area, are very pious and friendly.

I cant talk for all Somali's... but i assume they will be same as us Pakistanis when we FIRST came to UK..
- Some took the easy route ie crime n drugs etc.
- some took the hard route and studied or worked hard.

[Wazeeri]

i assume they will be same as us Pakistanis when we FIRST came to UK..
- Some took the easy route ie crime n drugs etc.
- some took the hard route and studied or worked hard.


Very few took the latter route.

[world_peace]

same issue has been hot topics in australia, bot not with samalis but with sudanese.

[SameerM]

wazeeri - but eventually even druglord/criminal parents want their kids to be educated!

but thats how it works.. eg. the Polish..have taken over most of the slum areas BUT are doing the most labour work ie building etc etc.

Polish smaller communities, even have about 8-10 people sharing ONE house.. a bit like the asian invasion of the uk in the 60's-70's

But then theres some polish who gone into dealing etc.. dodgy cars..

its that same thing just a new community that has to deal with it.

[in_cutter]

...most of them are running dodgy internet cafes :))

[TAK]

it's nonsense to suggest that when pakistanis first came to this country some took the easy route ie crime n drugs and some took the hard route and studied or worked hard

when pakistanis first came to this country only a negligible minority took the easy route you refer to, the overwhelming majority worked very hard, often in the unskilled manual jobs the white working classes didn't want to to do!

it is the sons and grandsons of those good people who have taken the easy route

[Wazeeri]

My objection was mainly on the studying part of the argument.
We are the least educated community in the UK.

[world_peace]

My objection was mainly on the studying part of the argument.
We are the least educated community in the UK.
i find that really hard to believe. how could this be possible? i would expect pakistani's to be in the top 10 educated community in the UK (with the amount of pakistanis in the uk). im just comparing the fact that the Pakistani community in australia is no where near the least educated community.

[Wazeeri]

i find that really hard to believe. how could this be possible? i would expect pakistani's to be in the top 10 educated community in the UK (with the amount of pakistanis in the uk). im just comparing the fact that the Pakistani community in australia is no where near the least educated community.

The Pakistani community in the UK is the only pakistani community in the world which features in the bottom of the tables. Pakistani and Bangladeshi boys get the worst grades in GCSE's and they have the worst conversion rate into A'levels.

They also have the least number of post-secondary school qualifications.

[Daoud]

i find that really hard to believe. how could this be possible? i would expect pakistani's to be in the top 10 educated community in the UK (with the amount of pakistanis in the uk). im just comparing the fact that the Pakistani community in australia is no where near the least educated community.
You shouldnt compare the state of Pakistanis here with the state of Pakistanis in the UK. They're a significantly worse version of the Lebanese here. The stereotypical youths from both sides are just as bad. Sure you get a large number of well educated and legitimately well off people but the community is pretty big so that is to be expected.

[Toony™®]

Wazeeri most pakistanis in the uk are uneduated from the start. It will take time. Maybe even third generation. Although, if you break down the pakistani demographic- it is easy to point out where the problem lies and where effort needs to be focussed. Around 3/4 of the community are from mirpur/kashmir.

Although, i would like to know what the latest figures are compared with 5,10,15 years ago.

[Wazeeri]

Toony

Majority Pakistanis are now born in UK. The stats are from when I was at Uni so about 2/3 years ago.

[Raz]

I personally know a Somali brother and he is one of the nicest people one could ever hope to meet. He works as security guard at night at my halls of residence and also studies part time.

[dblock]

Toony

Majority Pakistanis are now born in UK. The stats are from when I was at Uni so about 2/3 years ago.

But if all the generation around them worked in labour jobs, taxis, restaurants, etc their own family are unaware of how to maximize the education experience it kind of makes sense why the figure is so low.

Currently things are improving but the lack of guidance at a younger age, coupled with living in poorer communities with poorer schools means it's going to be tough.

Social mobility isn't as easy as it was 20 years ago.

[Saj]

I personally know a Somali brother and he is one of the nicest people one could ever hope to meet. He works as security guard at night at my halls of residence and also studies part time.
Raz, there are bound to be some good amongst them, its just that the vast majority I have come across are arrogant and have no grattitude for the fact that they have escaped a war torn country.

Too many of them walk around in gangs thinking they are some sort of gangsters acting like hoodlums.

Have a read of this :-

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/breaking-news/2008/03/13/three-more-arrests-in-sefton-park-somali-murder-case-100252-20616135/

[Wazeeri]

But if all the generation around them worked in labour jobs, taxis, restaurants, etc their own family are unaware of how to maximize the education experience it kind of makes sense why the figure is so low.

Currently things are improving but the lack of guidance at a younger age, coupled with living in poorer communities with poorer schools means it's going to be tough.

Social mobility isn't as easy as it was 20 years ago.

I'm not saying there isn't an excuse. I just don't think the Pakistani population in the UK can be broken down into people who sell drugs and people who study.

[zaminabs]

1 in every 3 Muslims has no qualifications in the UK..

Source:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=963

[hussain_0216]

I quite like the somali's they are pious and are a new community froma war torn nation..


Quick question to anyone who knows, when these statistics are compiled about the levels of education amongst muslims in the UK etc

who are they counting....

What I mean to say is that are they countil ALL muslims, which would include all south asian immigrants (e.g Pak, India, Bangla) all middle eastern immigrants, or afghans, or somali's, sudanese, iraq's, kosovans, bosnians, turks, algerians, etc etc

These are all muslims, and many of them have arrived VERY recently in large numbers, if you look at some of the young guys from Afghanistan or Iraq they are hardly going to come to the Uk or Europe and walk straight into a university, MOST have to think about making enough money to survive....

With this very diverse muslim coimmunity arent the figures for muslims distorted as they count anyone in the Uk who calls themselves a muslim and that is a very diverse group of people..... many of whom wont be able to get a degree or go to university until they make firmer roots.

Back in the 1960's very few numbers of any immigrant communities went to university

[dblock]

I quite like the somali's they are pious and are a new community froma war torn nation..


Quick question to anyone who knows, when these statistics are compiled about the levels of education amongst muslims in the UK etc

who are they counting....

What I mean to say is that are they countil ALL muslims, which would include all south asian immigrants (e.g Pak, India, Bangla) all middle eastern immigrants, or afghans, or somali's, sudanese, iraq's, kosovans, bosnians, turks, algerians, etc etc

These are all muslims, and many of them have arrived VERY recently in large numbers, if you look at some of the young guys from Afghanistan or Iraq they are hardly going to come to the Uk or Europe and walk straight into a university, MOST have to think about making enough money to survive....

With this very diverse muslim coimmunity arent the figures for muslims distorted as they count anyone in the Uk who calls themselves a muslim and that is a very diverse group of people..... many of whom wont be able to get a degree or go to university until they make firmer roots.

Back in the 1960's very few numbers of any immigrant communities went to university

Sources: Qualifications: Annual Population Survey, January 2004 to December 2004, Office for National Statistics
Schools: Annual Schools Census, January 2004, Department for Education and Skills
Number of children: Census, April 2001, Office for National Statistics

I think 90% of the muslim population they cover would be from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh given the statistics range from 2001 to 2004.

hussain - in the 1960's only 5% of the student population went to university, so it wasn't only immigrants who couldn't go.

A side point about education for muslims - how often do you see Pakistani or Bangladeshi families take their little children to month long trips back home right in the middle of the school year (as it's normally cheaper) only recent clamp down on this has seen a reduction.

[TAK]

Back in the 1960's very few numbers of any immigrant communities went to university

do you think perhaps that could be because the immigrants had not been here that long and many of their children were either too young or had not even been born in the 60's?

[TAK]

who are they counting....

a complete shot in the dark here hussain, do you think they could be counting all those that tick muslim on the census as muslims?

[TAK]

I dont want to "tar every Somali living in the UK with ther same brush", but it seems to me that they are really creating some problems for themselves.

I get the impression that they have taken the stance to not really mix with other communities, have resorted to crime to fuel their wealth with a number of Somali gangs around the country in the headlines. Their kids seem to be doing very poorly at school and to me they just seem to be rather arrogant and cocky.

Considering they have come from a war torn country and they are looking to rebuild their lives in the UK, they arent making too many friends in the UK are they?

I dont want to "tar every pakistani living in the UK with ther same brush", but it seems to me that they are really creating some problems for themselves.

I get the impression that they have taken the stance to not really mix with other communities, have resorted to crime to fuel their wealth with a number of pakistani gangs around the country in the headlines. Their kids seem to be doing very poorly at school and to me they just seem to be rather arrogant and cocky.

Considering they have come from a poor country and they are looking to rebuild their lives in the UK, they arent making too many friends in the UK are they ?

[hussain_0216]

a complete shot in the dark here hussain, do you think they could be counting all those that tick muslim on the census as muslims?

do you think perhaps that could be because the immigrants had not been here that long and many of their children were either too young or had not even been born in the 60's?



Exactly that's what I am saying, if they count EVERYBODY who is muslim and many of those muslims like Kosovans or Iraqi's or Afghans or somalians came to the UK recently, wont be able to go to uni or get a degree as a result it is slightly disproportional to kind of gather statistic's on the WHOAL MUSLIM COMMUNITY when this community is very diverse and different
__________________

[the_game]

The strange thing is that their condition seems to be the same here in Toronto, even though I'm sure there aren't as many of them here as in the UK.

[jiripoca]

My objection was mainly on the studying part of the argument.
We are the least educated community in the UK.

I thought Afro-carribeans were the worst performers at school. In fact I know they are.

[dblock]

I thought Afro-carribeans were the worst performers at school. In fact I know they are.

its

Afro-carribeans
bangladeshis
pakistanis

in that order of worst performing.

[Isolation]

i know a few somalis and they seem like nice people to be honest, have a good sense of humour, they only thing i can think is that a lot of them act as though they are afro- caribean coz they are black anyway, u see the ones who think they puff daddy types, u get apnay like that but these guys take it to the extreme i'm talkin cane-row hairstyles and blown up fuji and donnay track suits

[Wazeeri]

I thought Afro-carribeans were the worst performers at school. In fact I know they are.

It has improved somewhat since I last checked but still nothing to be proud of at the moment.

[MIG]

I think our resident Somali cricket fan, Elan, may have something to say about this !

[Nakhuda]

Black people in general seem to be involved in crime more then any other group.Don't have the stats in front of me but they are featured too often in programmes like "Crimewatch".

[Ghoshtbuster]

Black people in general seem to be involved in crime more then any other group.Don't have the stats in front of me but they are featured too often in programmes like "Crimewatch".

:)))
so if somebody said, "pakistains are terroists, because i see them on the news alot", you would agree with them?

[Nakhuda]

:)))
so if somebody said, "pakistains are terroists, because i see them on the news alot", you would agree with them?

But we don't see Pakistanis in the news a lot or in programmes like "Crimewatch".People generally do associate black's with all sort's of crime.Some days back i was reading an article that claimed how 80% of Scottish people are suspicious of black people.

[Ghoshtbuster]

But we don't see Pakistanis in the news a lot or in programmes like "Crimewatch".People generally do associate black's with all sort's of crime.Some days back i was reading an article that claimed how 80% of Scottish people are suspicious of black people.

i beg to differ.

and the second part is simply not true.

[Nakhuda]

Feel free to disagree.What second part are you on about and do you live in Scotland??

[TAK]

But we don't see Pakistanis in the news a lot or in programmes like "Crimewatch".

yesterday i read a piece in my local newspaper about armley prison in leeds

at the present time it's holding 1200 inmates, have a guess how many of those are pakistanis?

[Nakhuda]

yesterday i read a piece in my local newspaper about armley prison in leeds

at the present time it's holding 1200 inmates, have a guess how many of those are pakistanis?

None!!!.Maybe its a personal thing but black people give me the creeps especially the one's who consider themselves as rappers speakin' Jamaican or African slang.No wonder they often get stopped by the police!! :))

[TAK]

200, and it probably is a personal thing as it bears little relation to reality

[Nakhuda]

200, and it probably is a personal thing as it bears little relation to reality

If you were to ask fifty people if or not they relate black people to crime then a high percentage would agree with me.The fact that they often get stopped by the police suggests exactly this however unfair it maybe.

[Saj]

200, and it probably is a personal thing as it bears little relation to reality
That is a frightening stat TAK. Basically 1/6th of the prisoners in there are Pakistani.

I have a friend who works as a teacher. He's currently working with 10 and 11 year olds - he says that the most difficult pupils to deal with are the Somalis. They seem to have this attitude where they are basically reiterating to the teacher that "you cant touch me", "we know the laws" etc etc.

The other day he was handing fruit out to the kids and this group of Somali kids started throwing the fruit at each other - this from a group of kids who could have been starving if they were still in Somalia.

[dblock]

Saj - let me guess it's entirely the male population that act this way, same for Pakistanis and Bengalis.

This is where it differs I think for black/white ghetto teenagers - there is a significant number black/white female gangs about. For the upper group though it's nearly entirely a male problem.

[TAK]

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Leeds-Muslim-prisoners39-ham-sandwich.3872099.jp


apologies, it's not 200 pakistanis but 200 muslims!! but either way it's a shocking 1 in 6, and you can bet yer bottom dollar that most of those 200 are pakistanis

[Saj]

Saj - let me guess it's entirely the male population that act this way, same for Pakistanis and Bengalis.

This is where it differs I think for black/white ghetto teenagers - there is a significant number black/white female gangs about. For the upper group though it's nearly entirely a male problem.
Yes dblock, its the lads in the class that are the very disobedient ones. Answering back, attitude, no interest in studies and filthy language too.

You would have thought that these are the type of folk who would want to put their troubles behind them and build a sold future for themselves and their families. Instead all they are adding to life in the UK is crime.

[Joseph K.]

I work with quite a few Somalis and we have good laugh together. They have this enormous ability to take jokes and laugh with you, absolutely wonderful. I have countless jokes, such as 'bring on the civil war', 'GIVE ME MY RIGHTS (but don't mention my duties)' 'Tribunal, here I come' or walking around as if carrying a rocket-launcher on your shoulder, or:

Q: When Americans bombed Somalia for 6 hours , nobody died, Why?
A: They were all on 'meal break'.

We have good laugh. Some of them are very educated but they laugh at the fact that they all study Pharmacy! They ALL want to open a PCO. They tell me this is the way things were back home as well. If one started a business the whole tribe would want to do the same business in the same area! They like to hang around together in largish groups but they are furiously fussy about their rights. Managers are scared of them as many bosses have come to sorry end because they messed it up with some Somali who was missing from his point of duty or not pulling his weight. The Somali would go straight to the highest authority possible by-passing all channels and demand that his case be given priority. When they talk in their language, and they are quite loud, you can easily identify words like 'tribunal', 'appeal', 'council' and 'DSS'. Still on the whole a good laugh and I would rather work with some friendly Somali with sense of humor than some grumpy old Englishman.

As far as Pakistanis are concerned, I read somewhere that our kids recently passed the black kids as the fastest growing ethnic group of young offenders in UK. So much for the future!