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Monsee
7th May 2008, 01:51
P.S. Mods, please delete any Islam Bashing or Anti-Islamic posts/comments...anyone don't like this thread, they can chose not to post in here. Thanks



A short while ago one of my colleagues was giving away choclate sweets and upon my enquiry, he said yeah there is no alcohol in them.

Another colleague and one of my managers took it upon herself to look up an ingredient called 'Vanillin' and later emailed me that it is made of Vanilla flavor or beans and has upto 35% alcohol in it...to create the extract, which is used in almsot all chocolates, candies, cookies, brownies etc.

Long story short, eat any chocolate or sweets except Cadbury's chocolate at your own expense because I have found Vanillin/Vanila Falvouring/Vanilla Beans/ etc. in almost all of them...this includes chocolate cakes, brownies,cookies,chocolates and a few other confectionaries

May Allah help us all in forgiving us for what we don't know about...Ameen

P.S. Mods, please delete any Islam Bashing or Anti-Islamic posts/comments...anyone don't like this thread, they can chose not to post in here. Thanks

Ghoshtbuster
7th May 2008, 01:57
Where does the 35% come from?

"Vanillin" itself is not a "alcohol".

12thMan
7th May 2008, 02:02
wouldn't then this also include many ice-cream, custard etc as vanilla is used in them

Oxy
7th May 2008, 02:30
I think the problem is with the Vanilla Extract.

You cannot buy it unless it contains alcohol (found this out when my daughter neeed the stuff for cooker a few months ago)

TAK
7th May 2008, 02:34
doesn't the alcohol evaporate in the cooking process?

Pak_cricketer
7th May 2008, 02:41
I don't know about that but anything that contains alcohol needs to be clearly stated on the box/bag before being distributed. Atleast that is the rule here in Canada.

MCMLXXXII
7th May 2008, 02:44
I have read many fatwas that say that synthetically produced alcohol used for chemical processes as a solvent such as those in extracting the flavor of vanilla are not Haram as they are not intoxicating. I have read also read countless other Fatwas saying that they are not halal.

However, there are naturally existing Vanillin from plant sources that use non-alcohol solvents. So you cannot make blanket statements that all chocolates are Haram. it has to be investigated on each product basis to determine if they used halal Vanillin or not. Also, most of the time when a product lists Vanilla extract as an ingredient, it means the Vanillin has been extracted using alcohol as a solvent while at other times it is listed as vanilla flavor or natural vanilla flavor which could or could not contain alcohol and needs to be investigated.

As pointed out earlier in my post, a number of muftis consider synthetically produced alcohol used as solvents to be permissible so depending on who you choose to follow you could eat them without regard.

I apologize for the lack of citations in this post, I am writing this from memory, if you need sources and evidence then please do a google search to confirm my findings.

MCMLXXXII
7th May 2008, 02:53
doesn't the alcohol evaporate in the cooking process?

I was reading a couple of weeks ago that evaporating off alcohol in a cooking process would take 4-5 hours of cooking to bring it down to something like 35% or so. I will have to find that article again but it is very popular myth that the alcohol burns off in the cooking process.

Ghoshtbuster
7th May 2008, 02:57
I was reading a couple of weeks ago that evaporating off alcohol in a cooking process would take 4-5 hours of cooking to bring it down to something like 35% or so. I will have to find that article again but it is very popular myth that the alcohol burns off in the cooking process.
any alcohol will evaoprate reasonably quickly - compared to water at least.

MCMLXXXII
7th May 2008, 03:14
any alcohol will evaoprate reasonably quickly - compared to water at least.

http://www.post-gazette.com/magazine/19980903alcohol8.asp

http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/AlcoholEvap.htm

http://homecooking.about.com/od/alcohol/a/alcoholsub_2.htm

I guess I exaggerated the numbers above but you can never completely burn off the alcohol at all there will still be small traces left. If you let it simmer with the lid on, all of it will remain.

Ghoshtbuster
7th May 2008, 15:03
Yes sure.

What i meant was that a beaker of alcohol will evaporate quicker than a beaker of water. But in cooking - it would definatley depend on how you are cooking (how long, heat applied etc.).

But alcohol as a solvent in industrial processes - is that allowed or not? Or is nobody really sure?

Toony™®
7th May 2008, 18:39
no chocs aren't haram...

SameerM
7th May 2008, 19:51
no chocs aren't haram...

unless they consist of Animal fat, gelatine etc ?

Toony™®
7th May 2008, 20:13
unless they consist of Animal fat, gelatine etc ?

of course -unless that is halal sourced.

12thMan
7th May 2008, 20:18
Wasn't Kit Kat labelled haram in UK but it was okay outside - different ingredients

iZeeshan
7th May 2008, 20:57
I think the big picture has to be seen here. Alcohol was "Haram-ed" in Islam because of its consequences on the human mind and its consience. I really don't think someone can lose their mind or do stupid things because they've had too much chocolate.

That's the way I see it.

Monsee
7th May 2008, 20:57
no chocs aren't haram...



In light of the 'Vanillin' ingredients having up to 35% Alcohol...I sure will not take a blanket statement like yours and start eating them again!

Provide me some sort of proof or sources to point me or others in the right direction.

MCMLXXXII, I will look through your links and see what is being pointed out in them...hopefully I am wrong but for now all Chocolates are not 'IN' in our house!

P.S. Cadbury's Nuts and fruits is the best tasting chocolate I have ever tasted anyway...so it is not like I am missing anything anyway :-)

Monsee
7th May 2008, 21:02
I think the big picture has to be seen here. Alcohol was "Haram-ed" in Islam because of its consequences on the human mind and its consience. I really don't think someone can lose their mind or do stupid things because they've had too much chocolate.

That's the way I see it.



OK, lets explore it a bit further...will you eat the same Fish meat which was cooked in the same oil or on the same grill they just cooked up some 'Sausages'?


See what I mean :>

Big Daddy
7th May 2008, 21:08
Islam was intended to make life easier not hard for its followers. Its some people who go across the board who ruin it for the rest of us. Ultimately its about doing your best and hoping for the Devine Mercy. Coz if thats abscent, u r surely getting flame broiled over and over again, regardless of if u eat chocolates or anything.

p.s. Wow on chocolates being haram.

12thMan
7th May 2008, 21:25
In light of the 'Vanillin' ingredients having up to 35% Alcohol...wouldn't it also depend on how much Vanillin was used in making the sweet. If it is like size of a big tylenol tablet for a gallon of choclate than that 35% probably doesn't mean much because it will be like a drop.

And vanilla is used in making quite a few things even in Pakistan

Zechariah
7th May 2008, 21:37
Is it enough to create toxicity? That will answer the question.

SameerM
7th May 2008, 21:38
anyone tried eating 5-6 chocs in one go, to see if they can feel the 'drink'??

Vegitto1
8th May 2008, 00:30
Now i kno why i do stupid things after eating chocolates.

MCMLXXXII
8th May 2008, 00:42
In light of the 'Vanillin' ingredients having up to 35% Alcohol...I sure will not take a blanket statement like yours and start eating them again!

Provide me some sort of proof or sources to point me or others in the right direction.

MCMLXXXII, I will look through your links and see what is being pointed out in them...hopefully I am wrong but for now all Chocolates are not 'IN' in our house!

P.S. Cadbury's Nuts and fruits is the best tasting chocolate I have ever tasted anyway...so it is not like I am missing anything anyway :-)

Monsee, my post with the links and the 35% number was only about Ghoshtbuster's comment of alcohol evaporating in the cooking process. Those links say that it takes much longer for alcohol to evaporate then people assume and it can never fully evaporate, you will always have some traces left.

Regarding the vanillin, my first post pointed out that there are vanillin products out there that use some other substance such as methane as a solvent and not alcohol so they would be permissable. You have to investigate on each product basis to determine what kind of vanillin they are using. Furthermore, some muftis are of the opinion that synthetic alcohol used for purposes such as solvent are permissible but some other muftis disagree with this view.

surfer
8th May 2008, 00:48
anyone tried eating 5-6 chocs in one go, to see if they can feel the 'drink'??

I have done that and never felt drunk. The only instance when I tasted alcohol was when my ex-boss cheated me into eating one alcohol stuffed chocolate.

Daoud
8th May 2008, 07:25
Now i kno why i do stupid things after eating chocolates.
Its more than likely that its the sugar high which causes it

Toony™®
8th May 2008, 21:51
Like i said chocs are okay other than the ones which have alcohol(ethanol) added to them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanillin#Occurrence

since the beverage type is ethanol... alcohol is generic term in chemistry for group of compounds with -OH molecules.. not all are drinkable.

Since the compound used for synthesis is eugenol and not ethanol. Its okay.

161
8th May 2008, 22:32
Its more than likely that its the sugar high which causes it


i think he was trying to be sarcastic :26:

newbie
9th May 2008, 06:27
I have done that and never felt drunk. The only instance when I tasted alcohol was when my ex-boss cheated me into eating one alcohol stuffed chocolate.

I hope its EX-boss coz you slit the ****ers throat!! :)

12thMan
9th May 2008, 06:36
I hope its EX-boss coz you slit the ****ers throat!! :)take control of yourself. There is humor and then there is someone overdozed on karmina saying things

newbie
9th May 2008, 06:36
Wasn't Kit Kat labelled haram in UK but it was okay outside - different ingredients

Not too sure about kit kat but there was a big thing about all MARS brand chocolates and how their haram. They use to put whey powder in which is usually by-products of the cheese making process which mainly uses animal rennet. Also they wouldnt have any sort of sign or label to say it was suitable for vegetarians. They have now however stopped using whey powder and do label them as vegetarian....although please note any chocolates made before MARS changed the ingredients will still be unsuitable for vegetarians so if your bothered check the ingredients before hand.

newbie
9th May 2008, 06:44
take control of yourself. There is humor and then there is someone overdozed on karmina saying things


I was just joking but i seemed to have offended which was never my intention...my bad.

Although it is unacceptable for someone to mess with someones else' beliefs regardless what their take on it is.

Ok, 12th fella how about if the ex-boss is now swimming with the fishes?? :23:

12thMan
9th May 2008, 06:57
yeah swimming with the fishes is much better :)

And it was probably Mars bars. I can't recall but there was a thread about some famous candy/chocalate that had some objectionable material used in the construction

Garuda
9th May 2008, 10:12
I think the big picture has to be seen here. Alcohol was "Haram-ed" in Islam because of its consequences on the human mind and its consience. I really don't think someone can lose their mind or do stupid things because they've had too much chocolate.

That's the way I see it.
This was the reply I was waiting for to be made by someone.

You are absolutely correct. Look at the intention not the literal meaning.

surfer
9th May 2008, 11:51
I was just joking but i seemed to have offended which was never my intention...my bad.

Although it is unacceptable for someone to mess with someones else' beliefs regardless what their take on it is.

Ok, 12th fella how about if the ex-boss is now swimming with the fishes?? :23:

Well, no. It was rather taken as a joke. I stay away from Alcohol out of my personal choice as I consider it a harmful thing. No feelings really line Muslims have as they religiously stay away from it. My ex-boss was only four years older to me and hence we were more like friends.

Monsee
10th May 2008, 02:10
All those who are having a cow with me asking a general question can go eat that cow now...

As for the rest, I asked an honest question and got the replies...thanks!

P.S. All those who are saying silly stuff, why don't you try touching peproni,sausage etc. with your hands and try eating something with the same hands without washing them...see if you feel the urge to wash your hands or not or if you feel kinda sickened by the experience!

Let me know how was that experience...

MMA
10th May 2008, 02:32
Monsee it's not wise to ask this here. nobody has given a clear proof form qur'an and sunnah.Nobody has an ijazah on this forum to give a fatwa.So go to your imam or scholar in the area to ask him

mumtaz
10th May 2008, 05:01
As far as my limited understanding of Islam goes, one need not worry about the micro-ingredients for any product. As long as you are not eating jhatka meat or pork or not drinking alcohol, you are fine and eating chocolate is obviously not the same as drinking alcohol.

What I feel is that there definitely exists a need in the Islamic world to understand the spirit behind the laws. Right now I feel that there is too much emphasis on the laws itself and not enough in understanding the Divine purpose behind those laws. The Quran actually tells us that:

"He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Law (Al-Kitab) and the Wisdom (Al-Hikmah), although they were before certainly in clear error," (62:2)

i.e. that the Prophet was sent to not only teach the Law but equally importantly Hikmah, the true spirit behind the laws. The Jews made the same mistake as evidenced in the matter of the Sabbath and we are in danger of doing the same.

And Allah knows best.

Oxy
10th May 2008, 07:28
All chocolate is bad for you.

I gave it up 6 months ago.

(apart from spreading a bit of Nutella with peanut butter on my toast everyday)

iZeeshan
11th May 2008, 10:40
OK, lets explore it a bit further...will you eat the same Fish meat which was cooked in the same oil or on the same grill they just cooked up some 'Sausages'?


See what I mean :>
Actually, Monsee bhai, I will. You see, again, its the intention that matters. I am eating the FISH, not the oil, or the grill on which the sausages were cooked on. Oil? Ok, that's a little more complicated to argue against, but in the end, its the really fish I am eating.

Also, I don't really think this is a fair analogy. The oil in which the sausage was cooked has been in direct correlation with the meat, and may still even contain, whereas the chocolate has "Vanillin", which has been processed many times in the process of chocolate being made. To me, the analogy doesn't really work because "vanillin to chocolate", is not really "oil to fish/sausage" (which ever way you want to look at it).