In islam the worst "Sin" you can commit is....... [Archive] - PakPassion

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Xshazero

26th July 2008, 01:07

from_da_lost_dim3nsion

26th July 2008, 01:13

Usman

26th July 2008, 01:26

Zina is a huge sin in Islam, and in fact is one of the biggest possible sins. However,
from_da_lost_dim3nsion is correct in saying that it’s shirk which is unforgivable.

According to the Quran, if you believe in any other than Allah, you can not be forgiven.

khan-92

26th July 2008, 01:26

Usman

26th July 2008, 01:32

Every sin is forgiven if you make sincere tauba(repentence) from it.
If it is to do with rights of fellow humans then we have to seek forgiveness from them.
As muslim we should always try to keep away from sins whether big or small and if we do a sin a true muslim turns to Allah and seeks He's forgiveness.

No that's not true. As I've said polytheism or in fact believing in any other God apart from Allah is never forgiven. True repentance can only forgive you of other sins.

salman24

26th July 2008, 01:54

Shirk is the biggest sin!
i.e. associating partners with Allah

khan-92

26th July 2008, 02:01

No that's not true. As I've said polytheism or in fact believing in any other God apart from Allah is never forgiven. True repentance can only forgive you of other sins.

I mean if you repent from shirk Allah will forgive you for that as well.
The shirk that Allah wont forgive is like christains who believe in God but also believe that Jesus is God as well and die with this belief or any other religion who associate partners with Allah and dies with that belief but if they repent and become muslim that shirk is also forgiven.

Zechariah

26th July 2008, 02:18

NO it's not.

Its shirk. Nothing is bigger then that. Everything else is forgivable, but shirk is not.

iZeeshan

26th July 2008, 02:32

There are three major sins in Islam, to my knowledge:

Zina/Fornication, Murder, & Rape (which is kind of like Zina, except worse)

However, these three are NOT unforgivable. They are massive sins but not unforgivable.

The only thing unforgivable is Shirk, as Zech pointed out.

lahori

26th July 2008, 03:53

Legendary_Sage

26th July 2008, 04:15

its actually shirk jiskee maafi nahin hai !!
everything else could be forgiven , but in the end it all depends on your neeyah !
i know that zina is a guhhah , but i dont think that it is an unforgivable sin!also i think that some people in prophets day used to have sex with their baandeys(dont knw what the word would be for that in eng).. and to my knowledge it wasnt haram in islam !
Brother.
This thing was in different context to Zina.So dont use that thing to justify zina now a days.
I would advise you to first study deep in to that matter and then you will realize that it was a completely different thing from what people are doing now a days.
Half Knowledge is more dangerous then being ignorant.

Robert

26th July 2008, 06:34

I mean if you repent from shirk Allah will forgive you for that as well.
The shirk that Allah wont forgive is like christains who believe in God but also believe that Jesus is God as well and die with this belief or any other religion who associate partners with Allah and dies with that belief but if they repent and become muslim that shirk is also forgiven.

The First Commandment of the Jews and Christians reads "Thou shalt have no other god before me."

Which kind of suggests that Jehovah is aware of at least one "other god", else the sentence doesn't make sense.

moumotta

26th July 2008, 06:58

Momo

26th July 2008, 07:05

"To have sexual relationship with a woman (before marriage) or have such relationship with another woman if u are married".This is what my friend told me the other day.......

Well he also told me that such sins wont be forgiven no matter what happens..... he said " kataal (murder) ki maafi mil sakti hai lakin is gunnah ki koi maafi nahi hai".......

I actually didnt knew about this before. I knew that it is bad thing to have such relationships but i didnt know that this sin was the worst.

Just wanted to know whats ur opinion on this topic.

P.S. I havevnt made this mistake yet and i hope i dont do such a dirty act. I just wanted to know other ppers view on this hence i created this Thread.

Don't repeat something you heard without confirming it.
The biggest sin according to Allah is to make partners with Him.
Killing one man, according to Allah, is like killing the whole of humanity.
I hope you do not make the mistake you were referring to, but that mistake is not "the greatest sin".

Robert

26th July 2008, 07:08

The biggest sin according to Allah is to make partners with Him.

Please explain this to me.

Zeenix

26th July 2008, 07:32

Two major sins.

1) Shirk
2) Not performing Huqooq Ul Ibaad i.e Rights of Other people. Its strange that Islam was the first religion which fixed very clearly the rights of other people and society towards an individual, and rest of the world followed. Most of the Laws prevalent in the Western Society are direct rip of Islamic code, yet Muslims have one of the poorest track record of Human rights. Umar bin Khattab (RA) once said that if even a dog dies of hunger at the bank of Tigris, he (Umar) will have to answer to Allah for that, such were the standards.

Momo

26th July 2008, 07:33

Please explain this to me.

Okay, I will. Just let me know one thing first:

Do you believe in Quran and Sunnah? I mean if I quote something from the two, will it carry weight with you?

Mercenary

26th July 2008, 08:12

PZ your friend doesn't know what he's talking about, there's only one unforgiveable sin in Islam and that is Shirk. Below are three translations of the verse in question...

004.048 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.048)

YUSUFALI: Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin.

SHAKIR: Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.

To put the above verse in context, in the surrounding verses Allah(swt) is addressing the People of the Book (Jews and Xtians) and telling them he is willing to forgive anything except shirk. Although the verse is addressed to the POB's it applies equally to Muslims.

It refers to those who create partners for Allah within Islam (or Judaism/Christianity) and not those who were part of external religions. They can still be forgiven for their shirk so long as they accept Islam.

I think the verse is mainly in reference to the Trinity, etc.

Robert

26th July 2008, 08:27

Okay, I will. Just let me know one thing first:

Do you believe in Quran and Sunnah? I mean if I quote something from the two, will it carry weight with you?

I should state that my position is basically agnostic. I'm treating this as an intellectual exercise. I think I see an interesting parallel between Shirk and the First Commandment.

I would be grateful if you would proceed to explain to me what you think the text means.

Momo

26th July 2008, 09:00

I should state that my position is basically agnostic. I'm treating this as an intellectual exercise. I think I see an interesting parallel between Shirk and the First Commandment.

I would be grateful if you would proceed to explain to me what you think the text means.

Okay. I am glad you have been honest with me about your position. I will be glad to be of any help to you in understanding this concept. Since you are interested in the first commandment and it's relation with shirk, may I suggest that the second commandment is also of relevence here?

Will you be patient enough to listen to this excellent (for me) lecture by Sheikh Yusuf Estes on the very subject we are discussing? Because you are an agnostic, you may skip the azan part in the beginning but please don't skip any part of the khutba (lecture) proper.

Let's discuss it further when you are done. For the moment, listen and let me know what you thought about it.

Part 1: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Lxke1G-yw
Part 2: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ksIxQie3AeI&feature=related
Part 3: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=loVILctbINs&feature=related

Ralync

26th July 2008, 09:41

DHONI183

26th July 2008, 10:56

What exactly is shirk?

Polytheism - believing multiple gods, that is called 'Shirk'.

Robert

26th July 2008, 11:11

the second ammendment is also of relevence here?

The Right of Americans to bear firearms? :D

Will you be patient enough to listen to this excellent (for me) lecture by Sheikh Yusuf Estes on the very subject we are discussing?

Sorry mate, I went to wiki and my Islam for Dummies book and looked up the definitions. Maybe another day, thanks for posting the links.

My point is that the Abrahamic God, in his various forms, has a really big problem with anyone worshipping anyone or anything else, be that other gods / graven images / Hollywood stars / money.

Momo

26th July 2008, 11:23

The Right of Americans to bear firearms? :D

Oops, you got me. :)))

Sorry mate, I went to wiki and my Islam for Dummies book and looked up the definitions. Maybe another day, thanks for posting the links.

It's fine. Remember there's no compulsion in religion. :)

sohaib17

26th July 2008, 14:58

i have a question

first of all i will accept that i am not a very good muslim and i donno much about islam in that much detail

well what if you were unaware of this punishment and you had a sexual intercourse with some one ??

so is it still unforgivable or will i be forgive

BTW i know that having sex is haram but knowing that back then when they did not have condoms, pills etc etc

so as far as i think it was made haram becuz if you have a relationship with someone who is not married then the responsibility of the child will only be on the mother

but now adays there are lots of ways for not getting pregnant

now looking at that is it still haram or we should look into quran to find what it says

Momo

26th July 2008, 15:07

well what if you were unaware of this punishment and you had a sexual intercourse with some one ??

so is it still unforgivable or will i be forgive

There's a thing called tauba. If you repent and resolve not to repeat the thing again, and then stick to your resolve, Allah is most forgiving and merciful.

BTW i know that having sex is haram but knowing that back then when they did not have condoms, pills etc etc

so as far as i think it was made haram becuz if you have a relationship with someone who is not married then the responsibility of the child will only be on the mother

but now adays there are lots of ways for not getting pregnant

now looking at that is it still haram or we should look into quran to find what it says

Are you serious?
It is not haram because of the child or the woman. It is haram because it is an indecent, immoral act. No amount of contraception or disease control will change the fact that it is an immoral thing.

pakistanbest

26th July 2008, 15:09

having sex outside marriage is a huge sin but i personally think that u could be forgiven for it as all of mankind will make mistakes, i think the biggest sin is not beliving in Allah (SWT)

Momo

26th July 2008, 15:12

having sex is a huge sin but i personally think that u could be forgiven for it as all of mankind will make mistakes, i think the biggest sin is not beliving in Allah (SWT)

Having sex is a good thing if it is with your wife.

Even the wrong kind of sex can be forgiven, provided the person repents (tauba) and quits it.

MIG

26th July 2008, 15:13

having sex is a huge sin but i personally think that u could be forgiven for it as all of mankind will make mistakes, i think the biggest sin is not beliving in Allah (SWT)

Correction - outside marriage only.

IMO Gheebat ( back biting) is a bigger sin as it can divide communities and break up the Ummah.[Note: This is my opinion only]

pakistanbest

26th July 2008, 15:15

Having sex is a good thing if it is with your wife.

Even the wrong kind of sex can be forgiven, provided the person repents (tauba) and quits it.

what u mean by that?

Momo

26th July 2008, 15:17

Having sex is a good thing if it is with your wife.

Even the wrong kind of sex can be forgiven, provided the person repents (tauba) and quits it.

what u mean by that?

I mean sex outside marriage, before marriage etc. which are illegal in the Islamic system.

Joseph K.

26th July 2008, 15:18

"To have sexual relationship with a woman (before marriage) or have such relationship with another woman if u are married".This is what my friend told me the other day.......

Well he also told me that such sins wont be forgiven no matter what happens..... he said " kataal (murder) ki maafi mil sakti hai lakin is gunnah ki koi maafi nahi hai".......

I actually didnt knew about this before. I knew that it is bad thing to have such relationships but i didn't know that this sin was the worst.

Just wanted to know whats ur opinion on this topic.

P.S. I havevn't made this mistake yet and i hope i dont do such a dirty act. I just wanted to know other ppers view on this hence i created this Thread.

Did you tell your 'friend' that you or somebody else is interested in a person of the opposite sex? Oldest trick in the book, pull out the religion card to control people. Your friend is telling lies and that is a big sin, the root of all evil. Like the First Commandment in Old Testament, Qura'an also states 'shirk' or worshiping anything or any 'false' god other than Allah as the biggest sin. It is a common practice in Pakistan to control people's emotions, specially women's emotions to use the above falsehood. There are some very enlightening replies in this thread. Come on, Islam is NOT all about sex and violence.

MIG

26th July 2008, 15:19

Simple - ALLAH will forgive everything - you have to ask for HIS forgiveness and "mean" it.

Remember, zina is only zina in Islamic terms if commited and witnessed by 4 witnesses or proved with scientific means in a court of law.

If this remains a secret between man and woman, then who else can judge this except ALLAH SWT?

Ofcourse, if children result due to such contact, the situation becomes very complicated.

pakistanbest

26th July 2008, 15:19

[QUOTE=pakistanbest]

I mean sex outside marriage, before marriage etc. which are illegal in the Islamic system.

true

so that means the OP PZ statement is incorrect?

Momo

26th July 2008, 15:21

Did you tell your 'friend' that you or somebody else is interested in a person of the opposite sex? Oldest trick in the book, pull out the religion card to control people. Your friend is telling lies and that is a big sin, the root of all evil. Like the First Commandment in Old Testament, Qura'an also states 'shirk' or worshiping anything or any 'false' god other than Allah as the biggest sin. It is a common practice in Pakistan to control people's emotions, specially women's emotions to use the above falsehood. There are some very enlightening replies in this thread. Come on, Islam is NOT all about sex and violence.

The portion about the biggest sin is surely a lie, no doubt about that. Having said that, sex with anybody who is not your spouse is a sin nevertheless, no doubt about that either.

lahori

26th July 2008, 16:29

The portion about the biggest sin is surely a lie, no doubt about that. Having said that, sex with anybody who is not your spouse is a sin nevertheless, no doubt about that either.

Not true. You can also have sex with a slave girl according to the Quran. Read the passage where it says "... and those whom your right hand possesses..". Ofcourse in today's world it's unthinkable to keep slave girls but back then it wasn't and neither was it a sin.

Momo

26th July 2008, 16:32

Not true. You can also have sex with a slave girl according to the Quran. Read the passage where it says "... and those whom your right hand possesses..". Ofcourse in today's world it's unthinkable to keep slave girls but back then it wasn't and neither was it a sin.

So having sex with anybody who is not your spouse is illegal in Islam, and hence a sin. Right?

lahori

26th July 2008, 16:34

So having sex with anybody who is not your spouse is illegal in Islam, and hence a sin. Right?

Not according to the Quran dude. A slave girl ain't your spouse.

sohaib17

26th July 2008, 17:04

^^^

so what the mean is back then it was allowed to have sex with a slave girl

thats so bad

Momo

26th July 2008, 17:41

Not according to the Quran dude. A slave girl ain't your spouse.

Not true. You can also have sex with a slave girl according to the Quran. Read the passage where it says "... and those whom your right hand possesses..". Ofcourse in today's world it's unthinkable to keep slave girls but back then it wasn't and neither was it a sin.

So for people like us who live in today's world having sex with anybody who is not your spouse is illegal in Islam, and hence a sin. Right?

lahori

26th July 2008, 18:17

So for people like us who live in today's world having sex with anybody who is not your spouse is illegal in Islam, and hence a sin. Right?

It's illegal in today's Islamic nations not because its illegal in Islam but because of the cultural norms. You're confusing between the two.

Secondly I gave you proof that Islam (via Quran) allows a Muslim to have sex with someone other than a spouse. What are your comments on that with respect to the original post?

Momo

26th July 2008, 18:36

lahori

26th July 2008, 18:41

My comments on that with respect to the original post are very clear. Read #14. Mind reading it?

Read. My thoughts exactly.

Momo

26th July 2008, 18:52

Read. My thoughts exactly.
:)

moumotta

26th July 2008, 23:35

The First Commandment of the Jews and Christians reads "Thou shalt have no other god before me."

Which kind of suggests that Jehovah is aware of at least one "other god", else the sentence doesn't make sense.

Jehovah was the God of the jewish tribe and would have been in a kind of 'turf war' with the gods of other tribes so it kind of makes sense that protection of his turf would be the first of his commandment.

moumotta

26th July 2008, 23:36

Polytheism - believing multiple gods, that is called 'Shirk'.

Thanks Dhoni. I used to think it stands for any sin.

Xshazero

27th July 2008, 01:03

I knew that "Shirk" is the worst sin in Islam...... My mom told me this long time ago..... But the other day a friend of mine told me that in islam the worst sin u can commit is to have sex (outside marriage)... I was a bit confused when i heard this thats y i created this thread to get others ppers view.... and resolve any misunderstanding.... anywayz thnks for letting me know.... appreciated....:)

Robert

27th July 2008, 08:04

Not true. You can also have sex with a slave girl according to the Quran. Read the passage where it says "... and those whom your right hand possesses..". Ofcourse in today's world it's unthinkable to keep slave girls but back then it wasn't and neither was it a sin.

Presumably this is an example of how religious text can be interpreted differently as cultural norms change, and should be IMO. In 6th Century CE it was OK to have slaves, now it is not.

DHONI183

27th July 2008, 11:31

But it is forgivable (that is if you repent) :) .

DHONI183

27th July 2008, 13:13

Not true. You can also have sex with a slave girl according to the Quran. Read the passage where it says "... and those whom your right hand possesses..". Ofcourse in today's world it's unthinkable to keep slave girls but back then it wasn't and neither was it a sin.

Could you please provide the Chapter and Verse number to locate this???

filosofee

27th July 2008, 13:34

Momo

27th July 2008, 13:44

Surely any crime by a peadophile is far worse and 'dirty' rather than any act between two consenting adults.

I think we should not obsess with which sin is worse and which is better, except that information that Allah has given us Himself (shirk being the biggest sin). All sins are bad and should be equally avoided. And if we do commit any of them, we should run back to Allah and ask for forgiveness.

Making merit lists of sins is a useless and stupid activity.

xzeno

29th July 2008, 13:15

shirk, sharing worship with the creator is the ultimate sin, no mercy for that one.

Foozee

29th July 2008, 13:33

believing in other gods other than allah or making partners with allah will not be forgiven...... other sins like zinnah, murder and etc.... maybe, allah knows best

waqar_ahmad

29th July 2008, 14:48

It's illegal in today's Islamic nations not because its illegal in Islam but because of the cultural norms. You're confusing between the two.

Secondly I gave you proof that Islam (via Quran) allows a Muslim to have sex with someone other than a spouse. What are your comments on that with respect to the original post?

lahori, what you said is true, but you must read the Quran with its translation and interpretation to completely understand this concept. To be very short, yes a man can have sex with a slave girl, but that does not mean he can have sex with any girls out there. Also, any children that he has from the slave girl will not have the same rights to his property as his "real" children.

There are other complications as well, as to what constitutes to being a "slave". You should read the details of that, it's not as simple as it sounds

Robert

29th July 2008, 14:55

Making merit lists of sins is a useless and stupid activity.

It is what Courts of Law do, though.

6xafridi

29th July 2008, 15:34

what i know is zina is the biggest sin after commiting shirk. u can be forgiven, but after sincere repentence.

the SHA

30th July 2008, 01:33

When I'm sick, I often find that a qualified Doctor gives me better advice than a friend...

Xshazero

17th September 2008, 12:45

ataullah

17th September 2008, 13:29

Ok guyz one quick question....

I know zina is haram....and it really is a disgusting sin..but just want to ask one question.

In islam Are we (males) allowed to hug a girl (just a normal hug nothing else) or have girl as your friend (just a normal friend)?

P.S...I havent asked this question to offend anyone i just want to get some things clear thats why i have asked this question here...i did tried to find the answer on internet but i couldnt find one!

Help will be appreciated thanks!

The Quran Says in 15th para, surah bani Israel:

[17:32]
Do not even go close to fornication. It is indeed a shameful act, and an evil way to follow.

Don't go close to fornication means things that lead to it like kissing, cuddling, chatting up etc.

Hadith says: The fornication of hands is to hold, the fornication of eyes is to look and fornication of feet is to walk.

There are numerous other ahadith too on fornication but i won't go into detail.

Hope this helps.

Momo

17th September 2008, 14:39

It is what Courts of Law do, though.
Of course they do. And for good reason: the punishment has to fit the crime. Even Allah works in the same way. Talking nasty to your grandmother and mass-murder hardly merit the same treatment.

However, my point was this: It is a useless activity to debate about relative weights of different sins. One should try to avoid all sins without worrying too much about the respective enormity of those.

Foozee

17th September 2008, 14:46

from my knowledge....shirk is unforgivable.... sex with women before marriage or adultery is Zinnah... which is forgivable but some punishment.... Allah knows best

Momo

17th September 2008, 14:50

Ok guyz one quick question....

I know zina is haram....and it really is a disgusting sin..but just want to ask one question.

In islam Are we (males) allowed to hug a girl (just a normal hug nothing else) or have girl as your friend (just a normal friend)?

P.S...I havent asked this question to offend anyone i just want to get some things clear thats why i have asked this question here...i did tried to find the answer on internet but i couldnt find one!

Help will be appreciated thanks!
ataullah has quite comprehensively addressed the hug issue above. Let me comment on the girl as friend (just a "normal friend") issue.

A boy and a girl can never be friends. A woman can be your mother, your sister, your wife, or your daughter; but never your friend. The only woman friend you are supposed to have islamically is your own wife or your sister or your mother or your daughter.

When it comes to any woman apart from the above four, far from being friendly, you are not even allowed to meet her unless it is absolutely necessitated by work, or some other valid reason. That too under strict conditions (never meeting one to one, conditions of being decently dressed etc).

This "just a normal friend" thing is originally an exclusively western concept (now has spread to all parts of the world), and has no place in islam.

MaVeRiCk

17th September 2008, 17:46

Shirk without doubt

DHONI183

18th September 2008, 11:37

Momo, what about being friends in school etc:13:?

Momo

18th September 2008, 11:58

^^What about it? :)

DHONI183

18th September 2008, 12:02

^^What about it? :)

Is it allowed according to you:)?

Momo

18th September 2008, 12:10

Is it allowed according to you:)?
It is not allowed according to islam. You go to school to study, and so do the girls. Sure, you make friends there as well, but going to school must not become an excuse for "mixed" company.

Why would boys like to be friends with girls, and girls with boys anyway? For what purpose?

tmac4real

18th September 2008, 16:47

so that's worse than killing someone? (i only read first post by the way, so if this has been explained I'm sorry if I'm bringing it up again).

Xshazero

18th September 2008, 16:48

Just like boy and a boy can be friend why cant a girl and a boy be friend? By friend i mean just friend nothing more than a good friend!

Xshazero

18th September 2008, 16:48

so that's worse than killing someone? (i only read first post by the way, so if this has been explained I'm sorry if I'm bringing it up again).

Read the whole thread..you will find out

tmac4real

18th September 2008, 16:53

Read the whole thread..you will find out

too lazy, can u just tell me lol. otherwise I will read later.

Xshazero

18th September 2008, 17:03

too lazy, can u just tell me lol. otherwise I will read later.

Bascially shirk(associating partners with Allah) is the biggest sin you can commit in Islam and its unforgivable...

Zina sin is also a really big sin but it is forgivable only thourgh (repentence) ("tauba").....
However i dont really know if zina sin is bigger than killing someone :)

SameerM

18th September 2008, 17:07

IMO the worst act is linking or believing in more than one god.. ie. shirk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

only allah knows the truth though

however, leaving islam is punishable by death, so i guess that comes a close 2nd!!

SameerM

18th September 2008, 17:15

books of 1 and 2 Kings. Of all the dismal failures of the Jewish people at the hands of their misguided leaders, one particular failure gets mentioned over and over again. Take for example 2 Kings 15:9,
“And he [Zechariah, not to be confused with the prophet of the same name] did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, as his fathers had done. He did not depart from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin.”
If this were the only example of this, then it would go unnoticed, but over and over again, kings of Israel are summarily dismissed as bad leaders for having not “departed from the sins of Jeroboam.”

So what was the “sin of Jeroboam?” 1 Kings 12:28 gives us the answer.
“So the king took counsel and made two calves of gold. And he said to the people, ‘You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.’”

The way he phrased that last line ought to sound familiar. The very same words are used by the wandering Israelites in Exodus 32:4 when they fashioned for themselves the original golden calf. Lesson: God’s not all that excited when his people make golden calves and worship them.

even in the bible praying to idols is a MAJOR sin.. and u shud pray to ONE god, allah.... but obviously this modern writer, cant understand why thats a big deal...

http://commongroundsonline.typepad.com/common_grounds_online/2006/11/the_worst_sin_i.html

Hash

18th September 2008, 17:34

It is not allowed according to islam. You go to school to study, and so do the girls. Sure, you make friends there as well, but going to school must not become an excuse for "mixed" company.

Why would boys like to be friends with girls, and girls with boys anyway? For what purpose?

No you don't just go to school to study. If the only purpose of school was 'study' then why not just home school everyone? The purpose of school is to prepare a child for his adult life. There is more to that than 'study'.

And, under your reasoning, why would anyone be friends with anyone at all? For what purpose?

Momo

18th September 2008, 17:52

No you don't just go to school to study. If the only purpose of school was 'study' then why not just home school everyone? The purpose of school is to prepare a child for his adult life. There is more to that than 'study'.

Home school is a great thing. But it is not practical for many people, because of lack of time or qualification or resources. The rare cases where it is feasible, it is much more efficient than the run of the mill school.

However, I am not against normal schools at all. And I never said that the only purpose of school was to study. Social intercourse is very important too, because we humans need to interact with our fellows. But study still remains the single most important object of a school, simply because we have lives outside school too, and we have enough social relationships there.
And, under your reasoning, why would anyone be friends with anyone at all? For what purpose?
Read the last paragraph above. You need friends for a hundred and one valid and decent reasons. But not one of those dictates that the friend must be a member of the opposite sex. If I am missing something, please enlighten me (that was the essence of my original question to Dhoni).

Hash

18th September 2008, 18:15

Home school is a great thing. But it is not practical for many people, because of lack of time or qualification or resources. The rare cases where it is feasible, it is much more efficient than the run of the mill school.

On this point we will have to agree to disagree. Because I actually think home schooling is a 'foul' thing...far from great. And I feel it is cruel for a child to be forced to miss out on his or her school days.

However, I am not against normal schools at all. And I never said that the only purpose of school was to study. Social intercourse is very important too, because we humans need to interact with our fellows. But study still remains the single most important object of a school, simply because we have lives outside school too, and we have enough social relationships there.

No you didn't say the only purpose of school was to study. You only said 'you go to school to study'....yes you go to study, but the personal development of a child is just as important as the academic development of a child.

Social relationships outside of school tend to be very limited to your immediate family, family friends or friends (or if you go home school....just your family and family friends). In school you spend all day (5 days a week) with a wide mix of people from different backgrounds, religions, classes, families, ethnicities etc.....you learn much more from this interaction than you are giving credit. It is the school years that mould a child into the adult he/she is going to be.

Read the last paragraph above. You need friends for a hundred and one valid and decent reasons. But not one of those dictates that the friend must be a member of the opposite sex. If I am missing something, please enlighten me (that was the essence of my original question to Dhoni).

Well...I never said that a friend MUST be of the opposite sex. I am merely emphatically disagreeing with your insinuation that there is 'no purpose' in having friends of the opposite sex. A 'friend' is a 'friend' is a 'friend'....and it doesn't matter if it is a male or a female. The hundred and one valid and decent reasons you mention apply TO any and both sexes FOR any and both sex.

Momo

18th September 2008, 18:17

Just like boy and a boy can be friend why cant a girl and a boy be friend? By friend i mean just friend nothing more than a good friend!
Because Allah not only wants us to stay away from fornication, he wants us not to even come close. For Qur'an and Hadis references, see ataullah's post (#60) above.

This philosophy of islam is very consistent. The westerner will admit today that alcohol is indeed bad, but he will still insist that within limits, it is okay. I agree with that statement. But once you start, where will you draw the line? And where exactly is the limit? You see the results of this philosophy, where many people cross the line and you have alcoholics everywhere who kill people while driving and abuse their own families when home. Islam presents a simple (and beautiful) solution: Just stay away from even a drop of alcohol. If you do that, there is no danger of your crossing any line, is there?

The same goes for fornication. No matter what label you give your "friendship" and yourself and the girl involved, the fact of the matter is that you are a man and she is a woman. Now men and women (naturallay) get attracted to one another. They are made like that. And the one who made them like that has also told us to stay away from any situation which can escalate and result in fornication. You stay away from women, and there is no chance of anybody crossing the line.

The difference between islam and other philosophies is this: islam accepts the limitations of man, and suggests ways in which those can be controlled. Other civilizations pretend that those weaknesses are not there. So they will make fun and laugh at islam's permission of polygamy, and segregation of men and women. They boast of how they are content with just one wife, and how much they love them. But then the same people get caught with prostitutes and suddenly the laugh is on them.

Allah has made women attractive for men. The label of "just good friends" doesn't change anything. And pretending that you have very pure feelings for a certain person doesn't change anything either. Let's be real.

Momo

18th September 2008, 18:49

On this point we will have to agree to disagree. Because I actually think home schooling is a 'foul' thing...far from great. And I feel it is cruel for a child to be forced to miss out on his or her school days.

Social relationships outside of school tend to be very limited to your immediate family, family friends or friends (or if you go home school....just your family and family friends). In school you spend all day (5 days a week) with a wide mix of people from different backgrounds, religions, classes, families, ethnicities etc.....you learn much more from this interaction than you are giving credit. It is the school years that mould a child into the adult he/she is going to be.

No you didn't say the only purpose of school was to study. You only said 'you go to school to study'....yes you go to study, but the personal development of a child is just as important as the academic development of a child.
Fair call. Besides, this issue deserves a separate thread. Will be an interesting debate, but some other time.
Well...I never said that a friend MUST be of the opposite sex. I am merely emphatically disagreeing with your insinuation that there is 'no purpose' in having friends of the opposite sex. A 'friend' is a 'friend' is a 'friend'....and it doesn't matter if it is a male or a female. The hundred and one valid and decent reasons you mention apply TO any and both sexes FOR any and both sex.
Hash, this makes all the sense in the world. If somebody thinks there's no harm in girl-friends (not friends who happen to be girls), your point is very valid.

I am against the girl-friend boy-friend concept, and believe that if you allow mixing at school, there is no way you can stop gfs and bfs. From that point of view, my pont is valid.

So both of us are right, depending upon the philosophy we have. And we both are wrong as well.

DHONI183

18th September 2008, 19:52

Momo, can you precisely bring out any reference from The Qur´an or Hadith other than posted by Ataullah? I will post my opinion tomorrow:).

Xshazero

18th September 2008, 20:21

Look momo i know in most cases (95%) boys and girls cannot be friends i mean that friendship will lead to love, romance etc etc.....but in some cases (and i have seen this in real life) that boy and girls can be friends by friend i mean just simple good friends who know their limits!..So my question is simple...If boy and a boy can be friends than why cant a girl and boy be friend? If they stay in their limits and are just good freinds nothing more than a friend!

Somali Pirate

18th September 2008, 22:58

Shirk.

Momo

19th September 2008, 01:00

Momo

19th September 2008, 01:21

Momo, can you precisely bring out any reference from The Qur´an or Hadith other than posted by Ataullah? I will post my opinion tomorrow:).
If you need a Qur'an verse specifically stating "don't be friends with a girl" in so many words before being convinced, you will be disappointed. The islamic philosophy (based on Qur'an and Hadis) of dress codes, segregation of sexes, insistence on not even going close to fornication etc. renders this issue quite clear though.
ab initio, but am a bit short on time myself. Besides have posted a lot on this these last couple of day. Will do that after reading your responses and opinion, if necessary.]

Besides, apart from Qur'an and Hadis, there is also an important thing called Sunna of Rasool and the ways of his companions. Why don't you tell us how many women was our Prophet "friends" with. Similarly how many female "friends" did Abu-Bakr, Umar, and Ali have? (all their lives have been well-documented to the smallest details after all.)

Sheikh

19th September 2008, 06:41

You have said it yourself. If something is 95% sure to lead to evil, it cannot be a good thing after all. [In your own words, if 100 people do it, 95 of them will go astray.]
Wow. Love/romance is evil? And here I sit thinking the opposite where hate/spite are evil. Amazing.

You do know that loving, romantic relationships can be platonic right?

Savak

19th September 2008, 06:53

My gathering is this

Shirk (most serious and unforgivable sin)

Murder (Lots of guilty people)
Rape (Lot of people guilty)
Zina (this is one thing many people will be guilty of)
Stealing (Guilty unlimited)

And we all call ourselves good Muslims lol.

Savak

19th September 2008, 06:55

Momo are you a Taliban sympathizer. I am shocked to hear your views on women and guys, segregation.

Momo

19th September 2008, 12:03

Wow. Love/romance is evil? And here I sit thinking the opposite where hate/spite are evil. Amazing.
"Hate is evil!" Great slogan for a t-shirt. Very original thought. Well done.

However you know it pretty well that the love/romance I am criticising here is not the opposite of hate/spite. I am against love/romance outside of marriage. As for that within marriage, or love for our fellow human beings in general, I am all for it.

I will appreciate it if we discuss this in a more mature manner, and keep cliches, "dialogues", and t-shirt slogans out of it. These things may sound cute and clever, but they don't mean anything.
You do know that loving, romantic relationships can be platonic right?
Can be. And can also be out of control (I will argue more probability of it being the latter than the former). Why take chances, when we know that things can go wrong? And yes, love/sex relationships before and outside marriage not only result in a lot of heartbreaks and problems for all concerned, they are outright evil. Anything that results in one having to face hell-fire is evil.

If your argument is accepted (okay if it is platonic), then one can also argue that alcohol is okay as long as one behaves himself, and refrains from driving while under the influence, can't one? See, islam doesn't work that way. The things that it perceives can lead to evil (not necessarily each and every time), it orders the muslims to stay away from.

Ace Base

19th September 2008, 12:10

Because Allah not only wants us to stay away from fornication, he wants us not to even come close. For Qur'an and Hadis references, see ataullah's post (#60) above.

This philosophy of islam is very consistent. The westerner will admit today that alcohol is indeed bad, but he will still insist that within limits, it is okay. I agree with that statement. But once you start, where will you draw the line? And where exactly is the limit? You see the results of this philosophy, where many people cross the line and you have alcoholics everywhere who kill people while driving and abuse their own families when home. Islam presents a simple (and beautiful) solution: Just stay away from even a drop of alcohol. If you do that, there is no danger of your crossing any line, is there?

The same goes for fornication. No matter what label you give your "friendship" and yourself and the girl involved, the fact of the matter is that you are a man and she is a woman. Now men and women (naturallay) get attracted to one another. They are made like that. And the one who made them like that has also told us to stay away from any situation which can escalate and result in fornication. You stay away from women, and there is no chance of anybody crossing the line.

The difference between islam and other philosophies is this: islam accepts the limitations of man, and suggests ways in which those can be controlled. Other civilizations pretend that those weaknesses are not there. So they will make fun and laugh at islam's permission of polygamy, and segregation of men and women. They boast of how they are content with just one wife, and how much they love them. But then the same people get caught with prostitutes and suddenly the laugh is on them.

Allah has made women attractive for men. The label of "just good friends" doesn't change anything. And pretending that you have very pure feelings for a certain person doesn't change anything either. Let's be real.

This is the best post I've read in a long, long time. MashaAllah!

Well, done akhi, only the blind will argue with the logic presented by you.

Momo

19th September 2008, 12:26

Momo are you a Taliban sympathizer. I am shocked to hear your views on women and guys, segregation.
Savak, these labels don't mean anything. I am afraid you will have to show me exactly where and how I am wrong, as opposed to taking refuge in name-calling, that too quite vague name-calling.

Exactly what is a Taliban anyway? You have to define him for me in detail, and then have to tell me in which way I sympathize with him.

I try to take guidance from the Qur'an, Sunna, Hadis, and companions of our Prophet; and (God forbid!) not from Taliban or any other group. Now, I may easily have my interpretations wrong, or my arguments faulty - and in that case I will appreciate it if you point out those deficiencies - but calling me a Taliban symathizer or anything else is not only unfair, it's also quite a useless exercise.

As for "I am shocked to hear your views on women and guys, segregation," what exactly are you shocked about? And what are your views? And where (and how) I am wrong? Just making statements like this aren't any help at all. You must explain clearly what you mean.

These tactics (name calling, using cliches, or trying to score cheap points) may make you feel good (even make you believe you are winning the argument), but in reality all they do is make you look stupid (also see my response to Sheikh (#89) above).

Ace Base

19th September 2008, 12:34

Savak, these labels don't mean anything. I am afraid you will have to show me exactly where and how I am wrong, as opposed to taking refuge in name-calling, that too quite vague name-calling.

Exactly what is a Taliban anyway? You have to define him for me in detail, and then have to tell me in which way I sympathize with him.

I try to take guidance from the Qur'an, Sunna, Hadis, and companions of our Prophet; and (God forbid!) not from Taliban or any other group. Now, I may easily have my interpretations wrong, or my arguments faulty - and in that case I will appreciate it if you point out those deficiencies - but calling me a Taliban symathizer or anything else is not only unfair, but also quite a useless exercise.

As for "I am shocked to hear your views on women and guys, segregation," what exactly are you shocked about? And what are your views? And where (and how) I am wrong? Just making statements like this aren't any help at all. You must explain clearly what you mean.

These tactics (name calling, using cliches, or trying to score cheap points) may make you feel good (even make you believe you are winning the argument), but in reality all they do is make you look stupid (also see my response to Sheikh (#89) above).

And InshaAllah, you shall never go astray if you stick to that. That is what separates the people of reason from the blind followers. May Allah preserve you, akhi.

DHONI183

19th September 2008, 13:33

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful".

My opinion on the male-female friendship topic:

It depends on the person. Frankly speaking I have more female friends than males because I simply don´t get along well with boys. The thing is that boys these days can´t think and speak of anything but sex, and can´t start a single sentence without the well-respected four-letter word. I find their behaviour to be very offensive, aggressive, abusive, and I absolutely hate that!!! Girls behave much, much better in this regard and pay attention to what they are speaking.

I have had many female friends, and you can ask every one of them and none of them would say that she ever saw something flirting, evil in my behaviour. Let alone that, many people misbehave with girls here on Internet thinking that no one would come to know of their identity but even here I maintain the level of respect. I have them as friends but with limitations. I know I can guide my chastity as I have succeeded so far. I surely don´t go outside alone to meet them etc. I have some on Internet, some in school, and few of those who have close relationship with my family. My relationship with them is what it is visible as to others. Those who aren´t sure about themselves may refrain from having females as friends.

How can fornication be part of friendship? The fact that comes here is that how you define a "friend". To me a friend is with whom you can share most of the things which others may not be knowing (now again, it depends on your definition of "sharing things". To me it mean sharing your problems like you receive in studies, at home, normal life etc).

What if I´m not the one amongst those who use the word "friendship" to cover up all their sexual acts? Is it still forbidden? Allah surely "warns" us against the acts which "may" lead us to a wrong path but He doesn´t basically forbid them. Relatively speaking, there are limitless acts which "may" lead us to wrong path to commit grave sins like adultery, fornication but the basic acts are not forbidden by Allah for his followers who have control over their minds, souls and bodies.

If we were to consider it prohibited by looking at surveys etc which say that 90-95 percent people have sex in friendship then there are many such things which "may" lead us to wrong path.

Now tell me, is friendship between two boys forbidden or not? You know what two young boys in their peak can do together?: They can both kidnap girls and rape them, they can go to brothel to get rid off their lust. What about surfing Internet? I can claim with my eyes closed that 99 percent of Internet surfers visit porn sites. Now it means if 100 people are then 99 will go astray. So is surfing Internet prohibited? It has to be for those who consider friendship between male and female unlawful.

Committing adultery, fornication with anyone is sure not allowed in Islam but "not" the basic act of being a friend of someone.

And Allah knows best but he has surely given us brains to think.

Bless you all:)!

Momo

20th September 2008, 08:06

Dhoni, I am absolutely convinced of your sincerity while penning your views on this friendship issue. Like always, you have come across as an honest person grappling with a difficult issue in a very sincere manner.

However, you have addressed this issue at a very narrow level (taking yourself as example, and taking fornication as the only evil thing that can result). In reality, this is a debate applicable to all muslims (not you alone), and there are myriad individual and social implications (apart from fornication) involved. I have addressed them in some detail below.

Plus, there are a number of logical faults in your arguments. Let me point some of the more glaring ones out to you, and then we can proceed from there. I pray to Allah that He gives us all wisdom and more knowledge of islam, as a result of participating in this thread.
It depends on the person.
Exactly, and by that reason alone, it can’t be correct islamically.
Frankly speaking I have more female friends than males because I simply don’t get along well with boys. The thing is that boys these days can´t think and speak of anything but sex, and can’t start a single sentence without the well-respected four-letter word. I find their behaviour to be very offensive, aggressive, abusive, and I absolutely hate that!!! Girls behave much, much better in this regard and pay attention to what they are speaking.
This is absolutely the worst possible approach to address an issue objectively. I mean, with this starting point (importance of female friends in your life), it will be an absolute miracle for you to reach any conclusion other than what you have reached: that it is not islamically undesirable to have female friends.

Besides, this conclusion of yours (boys these days can’t think and speak of anything but sex, and can’t start a single sentence without the well-respected four-letter word) is an unfair generalization. Now, I don’t deny the existence of such boys. But by your own admission, you are not one of those boys. I know I am not one either. Now it will be highly surprising if you and I were the only exceptions in that regard; surely there must be many boys like you and me out there. Besides, some girls too are known to use the f-verb and its gerund. What does it prove? Well, nothing at all. All it amounts to is a convenient excuse (albeit an unconscious one), and that’s about it.
I have had many female friends, and you can ask every one of them and none of them would say that she ever saw something flirting, evil in my behaviour. Let alone that, many people misbehave with girls here on Internet thinking that no one would come to know of their identity but even here I maintain the level of respect. I have them as friends but with limitations. I know I can guide my chastity as I have succeeded so far. I surely don´t go outside alone to meet them etc. I have some on Internet, some in school, and few of those who have close relationship with my family. My relationship with them is what it is visible as to others. Those who aren´t sure about themselves may refrain from having females as friends.
I have no problems in believing you, and I don’t even have to ask any of your female friends for confirmation. I am convinced that you behave in nothing but the most honourable way when in their society (the same goes for the ladies). And I am glad you have put some limitations on your friendship. I find your behaviour on this forum absolutely spotless, and you come across as very sensible person, and one who is at peace with himself.

But you will agree that not everybody is like that. Some people are emotionally disturbed or frustrated for some reason and they may cross the line if placed in the same position as you are. So we are talking about the same situation, but different results, depending on the circumstance and the person and his emotional condition. Don’t you think that as a rule, putting oneself in such a situation (which can have such catastrophic results) is advisable?

And even you (who has everything under control to date) can have a bad day, can’t you? A lapse in concentration, a rare error of judgment etc. Is it that far-fetched an idea? Are you so sure of your infallibility?

As for your “those who aren´t sure about themselves may refrain from having females as friends” suggestion, it is a self-defeating statement. It implies (wrongly) that only hose people can ever falter who are (from the start) unsure of themselves. I would argue that many an over-confident person has fallen into these traps for different reasons (complacency, an especially attractive girl, temporary emotional turmoil due to a completely different reason, etc), and many will do the same in future.
How can fornication be part of friendship? The fact that comes here is that how you define a "friend". To me a friend is with whom you can share most of the things which others may not be knowing (now again, it depends on your definition of "sharing things". To me it mean sharing your problems like you receive in studies, at home, normal life etc).
I agree with your definition of friend (fornication is not part of this definition originally). Illegal sexual encounters – in any degree - can result in a few cases, but not always. But that is not the only bad thing that can come out of it.

You have to broaden your view of this problem a bit, and rise above the fornication issue – which indeed is a grave evil but not the sole evil by any means. When boys and girls meet, many other desirable things can (and almost invariably do) happen. A girl may start liking a boy in a romantic way, but the boy may respond with “we are just good friends”, and indeed the other way around. There you have the perfect recipe for heartbreaks.

Then, unhealthy rivalries can develop between boys to win the companionship of girls in their class or neighbourhood. Then, in a society where having female company is norm, other boys who don’t have such company (intentionally or otherwise) can feel peer pressure to follow in the footsteps, or else risk being ridiculed for only having male friends (as if that were a sin).

So you should realize that “I am sure of myself and can refrain myself, and so it’s okay for me to have female friends”, is not the answer. The problem has much more far-reaching consequences than that. It’s not about you alone; it’s about you, her, and the society at large. And it's about islamic rulings, which don't address us on an individual basis. If something applies to you, it applies to me as well. And so too to all the muslims universally.
What if I´m not the one amongst those who use the word "friendship" to cover up all their sexual acts? Is it still forbidden? Allah surely "warns" us against the acts which "may" lead us to a wrong path but He doesn´t basically forbid them. Relatively speaking, there are limitless acts which "may" lead us to wrong path to commit grave sins like adultery, fornication but the basic acts are not forbidden by Allah for his followers who have control over their minds, souls and bodies.
Yes, it is still wrong. Islamic rules are for everybody and not for individuals. Do you expect different rules for yourself, and different rules for (weak) ordinary mortals?

You may not be among those (in fact I am sure you are not) who use the word 'friendship' for their hidden sexual agenda today, but how can you claim that you will never fall into that trap? You are a normal human being like us, aren’t you? You have your temptations as well - may be under control, but temptations nonetheless - no?

Allah wants you to stay away from any situation that can lead to regrettable results. That’s for your benefit, and that of the society at large. If this argument of yours is accepted, you may demand next that because you are confident that you won’t do any silly thing after drinking alcohol, your right of doing that should be accepted, and only the people who are not sure about themselves should refrain from alcohol.
If we were to consider it prohibited by looking at surveys etc which say that 90-95 percent people have sex in friendship then there are many such things which "may" lead us to wrong path.
Now tell me, is friendship between two boys forbidden or not? You know what two young boys in their peak can do together?: They can both kidnap girls and rape them, they can go to brothel to get rid off their lust.
This is a classic example of what is called a false analogy (a trap many people innocently fall into when arguing some issue). See, advising a boy against meeting a girl (to prevent any potential sexual encounters) is not analogous to advising a boy against meeting a fellow boy (to prevent going to a brothel, attempting kidnapping etc).

This analogy does not make sense. The former undesirable act requires a girl and a boy as parties to that act, hence the validity of advising them not to be in such a position. The latter on the other hand has no such requirement (or even relationship). One can go to a brothel alone without the aid of a friend. As for kidnapping etc, one may need aid but not necessarily from a friend. Professional people can provide that help more efficiently. The only indispensable players are still the abductor and the abductee. You get the point.
What about surfing Internet? I can claim with my eyes closed that 99 percent of Internet surfers visit porn sites. Now it means if 100 people are then 99 will go astray. So is surfing Internet prohibited? It has to be for those who consider friendship between male and female unlawful.
Another false analogy. If I were arguing to “prohibit” girls (which I am absolutely not), then you could have used this analogy. Then you would have made sense: Meeting girls and using internet may lead to evil social consequences and pornography, so “prohibit” or “ban” both.

Now I am not saying anything of the sort. I am just saying that friendship with a girl is prohibited (and not the existence of the girl per se). The same goes for porn sites on the internet. Those sites are prohibited according to islam (but not the internet per se). There is no inconsistency there in the case I am arguing here.

Alternatively, your analogy could also have made sense if you had said:
“So is surfing porn sites prohibited? It has to be for those who consider friendship between male and female unlawful.”
Did you use my replacing “internet” with “porn sites”? Now this is a true analogy, and yes, the answer to it is: Of course surfing porn sites is prohibited in islam (as opposed to internet itself). And having friendship with a girl is also prohibited in islam (as opposed to the “prohibition” of women as individuals).
Committing adultery, fornication with anyone is sure not allowed in Islam but "not" the basic act of being a friend of someone.
Being a friend of someone is absolutely allowed (if that someone is of the same sex as you are). if not, then this “basic” act has potential to result in serious social ills, so the islam I know is against it.

You are claiming that islam is not against being friends with a member of the opposite sex (if no fornication is involved). If that is true, surely you can give many examples of women who were "friends" of Prophet Muhammad, and his companions, right? I am very much interested to know (as far as I know they only had mothers, sisters, wives, or daughters).
And Allah knows best but he has surely given us brains to think.
Finally something we both agree on one hundred percent. :)

Sheikh

20th September 2008, 09:16

"Hate is evil!" Great slogan for a t-shirt. Very original thought. Well done.

However you know it pretty well that the love/romance I am criticising here is not the opposite of hate/spite. I am against love/romance outside of marriage. As for that within marriage, or love for our fellow human beings in general, I am all for it.

I will appreciate it if we discuss this in a more mature manner, and keep cliches, "dialogues", and t-shirt slogans out of it. These things may sound cute and clever, but they don't mean anything.

Can be. And can also be out of control (I will argue more probability of it being the latter than the former). Why take chances, when we know that things can go wrong? And yes, love/sex relationships before and outside marriage not only result in a lot of heartbreaks and problems for all concerned, they are outright evil. Anything that results in one having to face hell-fire is evil.

If your argument is accepted (okay if it is platonic), then one can also argue that alcohol is okay as long as one behaves himself, and refrains from driving while under the influence, can't one? See, islam doesn't work that way. The things that it perceives can lead to evil (not necessarily each and every time), it orders the muslims to stay away from.
Actually I think the kudos for originality should go to you: Love is evil! That's a laugh, thanks for that.

And I'm not sure why you're directly associating love/romance with sex; they don't have to be inclusive you know? Seems you're a bit stuck on the physicality of love outside marriage.

Your paradigm about alcohol and platonic love is completely off the mark. Consumption of alcohol is explicitly forbidden in Islam, love for another human being isn't. It's that simple and I don't need to get into details.

Q) Why take chances, when things can go wrong?

A) I'm going to step away from religion for a moment. Life is all about taking chances, it's filled with moments where initiatives and opportunities are there to be seized. A chance is to be taken without the repercussions known. We never know what the outcome of our decisions are; it's always a chance...and that chance consists of something that can go wrong. That's why life is beautiful; it's uncertain, it's chance.

Ace Base

20th September 2008, 09:25

Dhoni, I am absolutely convinced of your sincerity while penning your views on this friendship issue. Like always, you have come across as an honest person grappling with a difficult issue in a very sincere manner.

However, you have addressed this issue at a very narrow level (taking yourself as example, and taking fornication as the only evil thing that can result). In reality, this is a debate applicable to all muslims (not you alone), and there are myriad individual and social implications (apart from fornication) involved. I have addressed them in some detail below.

Plus, there are a number of logical faults in your arguments. Let me point some of the more glaring ones out to you, and then we can proceed from there. I pray to Allah that He gives us all wisdom and more knowledge of islam, as a result of participating in this thread.

Exactly, and by that reason alone, it can’t be correct islamically.

This is absolutely the worst possible approach to address an issue objectively. I mean, with this starting point (importance of female friends in your life), it will be an absolute miracle for you to reach any conclusion other than what you have reached: that it is not islamically undesirable to have female friends.

Besides, this conclusion of yours (boys these days can’t think and speak of anything but sex, and can’t start a single sentence without the well-respected four-letter word) is an unfair generalization. Now, I don’t deny the existence of such boys. But by your own admission, you are not one of those boys. I know I am not one either. Now it will be highly surprising if you and I were the only exceptions in that regard; surely there must be many boys like you and me out there. Besides, some girls too are known to use the f-verb and its gerund. What does it prove? Well, nothing at all. All it amounts to is a convenient excuse (albeit an unconscious one), and that’s about it.

I have no problems in believing you, and I don’t even have to ask any of your female friends for confirmation. I am convinced that you behave in nothing but the most honourable way when in their society (the same goes for the ladies). And I am glad you have put some limitations on your friendship. I find your behaviour on this forum absolutely spotless, and you come across as very sensible person, and one who is at peace with himself.

But you will agree that not everybody is like that. Some people are emotionally disturbed or frustrated for some reason and they may cross the line if placed in the same position as you are. So we are talking about the same situation, but different results, depending on the circumstance and the person and his emotional condition. Don’t you think that as a rule, putting oneself in such a situation (which can have such catastrophic results) is advisable?

And even you (who has everything under control to date) can have a bad day, can’t you? A lapse in concentration, a rare error of judgment etc. Is it that far-fetched an idea? Are you so sure of your infallibility?

As for your “those who aren´t sure about themselves may refrain from having females as friends” suggestion, it is a self-defeating statement. It implies (wrongly) that only hose people can ever falter who are (from the start) unsure of themselves. I would argue that many an over-confident person has fallen into these traps for different reasons (complacency, an especially attractive girl, temporary emotional turmoil due to a completely different reason, etc), and many will do the same in future.

I agree with your definition of friend (fornication is not part of this definition originally). Illegal sexual encounters – in any degree - can result in a few cases, but not always. But that is not the only bad thing that can come out of it.

You have to broaden your view of this problem a bit, and rise above the fornication issue – which indeed is a grave evil but not the sole evil by any means. When boys and girls meet, many other desirable things can (and almost invariably do) happen. A girl may start liking a boy in a romantic way, but the boy may respond with “we are just good friends”, and indeed the other way around. There you have the perfect recipe for heartbreaks.

Then, unhealthy rivalries can develop between boys to win the companionship of girls in their class or neighbourhood. Then, in a society where having female company is norm, other boys who don’t have such company (intentionally or otherwise) can feel peer pressure to follow in the footsteps, or else risk being ridiculed for only having male friends (as if that were a sin).

So you should realize that “I am sure of myself and can refrain myself, and so it’s okay for me to have female friends”, is not the answer. The problem has much more far-reaching consequences than that. It’s not about you alone; it’s about you, her, and the society at large. And it's about islamic rulings, which don't address us on an individual basis. If something applies to you, it applies to me as well. And so too to all the muslims universally.

Yes, it is still wrong. Islamic rules are for everybody and not for individuals. Do you expect different rules for yourself, and different rules for (weak) ordinary mortals?

You may not be among those (in fact I am sure you are not) who use the word 'friendship' for their hidden sexual agenda today, but how can you claim that you will never fall into that trap? You are a normal human being like us, aren’t you? You have your temptations as well - may be under control, but temptations nonetheless - no?

Allah wants you to stay away from any situation that can lead to regrettable results. That’s for your benefit, and that of the society at large. If this argument of yours is accepted, you may demand next that because you are confident that you won’t do any silly thing after drinking alcohol, your right of doing that should be accepted, and only the people who are not sure about themselves should refrain from alcohol.

This is a classic example of what is called a false analogy (a trap many people innocently fall into when arguing some issue). See, advising a boy against meeting a girl (to prevent any potential sexual encounters) is not analogous to advising a boy against meeting a fellow boy (to prevent going to a brothel, attempting kidnapping etc).

This analogy does not make sense. The former undesirable act requires a girl and a boy as parties to that act, hence the validity of advising them not to be in such a position. The latter on the other hand has no such requirement (or even relationship). One can go to a brothel alone without the aid of a friend. As for kidnapping etc, one may need aid but not necessarily from a friend. Professional people can provide that help more efficiently. The only indispensable players are still the abductor and the abductee. You get the point.

Another false analogy. If I were arguing to “prohibit” girls (which I am absolutely not), then you could have used this analogy. Then you would have made sense: Meeting girls and using internet may lead to evil social consequences and pornography, so “prohibit” or “ban” both.

Now I am not saying anything of the sort. I am just saying that friendship with a girl is prohibited (and not the existence of the girl per se). The same goes for porn sites on the internet. Those sites are prohibited according to islam (but not the internet per se). There is no inconsistency there in the case I am arguing here.

Alternatively, your analogy could also have made sense if you had said:
“So is surfing porn sites prohibited? It has to be for those who consider friendship between male and female unlawful.”
Did you use my replacing “internet” with “porn sites”? Now this is a true analogy, and yes, the answer to it is: Of course surfing porn sites is prohibited in islam (as opposed to internet itself). And having friendship with a girl is also prohibited in islam (as opposed to the “prohibition” of women as individuals).

Being a friend of someone is absolutely allowed (if that someone is of the same sex as you are). if not, then this “basic” act has potential to result in serious social ills, so the islam I know is against it.

You are claiming that islam is not against being friends with a member of the opposite sex (if no fornication is involved). If that is true, surely you can give many examples of women who were "friends" of Prophet Muhammad, and his companions, right? I am very much interested to know (as far as I know they only had mothers, sisters, wives, or daughters).

Finally something we both agree on one hundred percent. :)

Post of the year. Moderators, please take note.

I thought DM was good but this Momo chap is raising the bar.

Akhi, Allahi Jazeek Al Khair, after you speak we have nothing more to add. May Allah make you feet firm in Islam and may you continue you on the path of goodness. Aameen.

If you do not mind, the Moderators have my email address, may I have yours, akhi?

Momo

20th September 2008, 15:46

^^
Thank you for the kind words, Ace Base.
About my email address, you will receive it as soon as W63L35 comes online.

Momo

20th September 2008, 16:30

And I'm not sure why you're directly associating love/romance with sex; they don't have to be inclusive you know? Seems you're a bit stuck on the physicality of love outside marriage.
Even more than you are stuck on platonic love?
Q) Why take chances, when things can go wrong?

A) I'm going to step away from religion for a moment.

You are welcome. But in that case, there is no discussion between us [I am interested in talking strictly from an islamic point of view (which also happens to be the theme of this thread)].
Life is all about taking chances, it's filled with moments where initiatives and opportunities are there to be seized. A chance is to be taken without the repercussions known. We never know what the outcome of our decisions are; it's always a chance...and that chance consists of something that can go wrong. That's why life is beautiful; it's uncertain, it's chance.
I am not willing to accept that my life work is dependent on chance. This life will determine my fate in the next life, and I take it much more seriously than just a chance-event. You may think of the chance-nature of life as beautiful, but to me it is not only scary, but also grossly unjust (and my Allah is not unjust).

No my friend, I am not willing to take chances in my life - chances that may lead me to hell-fire. I believe that Allah has told us quite clearly the repercussions (at least in the long run) of our choices, and we know them in advance (at least the ultimatley important success/failure, which is in the hereafter): actions based on Allah's orders have good results and vice versa.

I think we are both speaking at very different wavelengths and hence unless we decide on a common frequency to debate this issue, there won't be any point in wasting any more effort.

For the moment though, it will be appropriate to end this with: "Lakum deenukum, waliya deen."

Idris Gogen

20th September 2008, 17:31

Is this a thread about "SEX" or religion

DHONI183

21st September 2008, 19:00

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful".

As always, a very interesting and civil debate with Momo. I enjoy it with you mate:)! I hope we can put some further light on our point of views.

Exactly, and by that reason alone, it can’t be correct islamically.

But you can´t call it incorrect either. The fact is that there is no clear prohibition on male-female friendship and therefore no one can put a ruling or Fatwa on fellow Muslim since no one can come to a conclusion through Qur´an or Hadith on this (Verses and Ahadith posted by Ataullah do not give any clear indication therefore a lot of meanings can be taken out of it). And since there´s no reference to it we should be allowed to take it on ourselves and be responsible for it. I take responsibility of myself and I know I will maintain my innocence. I´m not defending because I practice, I practice it because I don´t think it´s a sin.

This is absolutely the worst possible approach to address an issue objectively. I mean, with this starting point (importance of female friends in your life), it will be an absolute miracle for you to reach any conclusion other than what you have reached: that it is not islamically undesirable to have female friends.

It will also be a miracle for you to reach any other conclusion either since you may not have befriended any female in your life either. In this case you haven´t experienced it and do not know if controlling yourself, staying in limits, maintaining your innocence, dignity and chastity is possible or not. You look upto other people and their relationships, surveys etc (which might say 90% of friends have sexual relationship) and draw a final conclusion from it that the very basic act of being friends is a sin.

Besides, this conclusion of yours (boys these days can’t think and speak of anything but sex, and can’t start a single sentence without the well-respected four-letter word) is an unfair generalization. Now, I don’t deny the existence of such boys. But by your own admission, you are not one of those boys. I know I am not one either. Now it will be highly surprising if you and I were the only exceptions in that regard; surely there must be many boys like you and me out there. Besides, some girls too are known to use the f-verb and its gerund. What does it prove? Well, nothing at all. All it amounts to is a convenient excuse (albeit an unconscious one), and that’s about it.

There´s a huge difference in behaviour of a boy and girl. I think one only feels the difference once you know both of these. I really haven´t met ever met any girl who shamelessly talks about sex, uses vulgar language. It´s a common fact that whenever two-three boys are together all they talk about is girls. Surely not all boys are such but let me make my stance clear on this: I go to my school/college, meet my friends, am hanging around with them. Suddenly one shows the other a girl passing by, the other asks the other to spot her private parts, one winks at her, the other whistles. If done with that one one brings out his mobile phone loaded with shameless pictures and videos. All are going mad at it. In this case asking me to take part, if I deny they start making fun of you. Go somewhere else, absolutely alone..... In this case I would rather prefere go to some female friend of mine and talk to her about studies, homework etc. It´s not that I don´t get along with boys because I don´t want to, but rather they themselves are the reason of it. Let me make it clear that I don´t run behind girls etc, or befriend them for the sake of it. That´s the atmosphere here in my environments and my stance thus is justified to me. And I claim that the biggest reason of myself befriending with females is so that I may not turn out like a spoiled brat. And it´s also true that the day my male friends there will start behaving in good manners I will stay all the day with them. No one would believe but I even preach them on Islam. In my life so far I experienced that boys company makes you go more astray. The fact is that girls are such as well but 'some'. I know my post might sound as if befriending boys is a grave sin but what I´m trying to highlight here is that danger is involved in everything. If there´s any danger of going astray at all then it´s more to do with being friend of boys. Agreed that not all boys are like this and no one would know this better than me as I had so many friends there who didn´t use any vulgar language etc, and as a result I didn´t have any female friend then. Why do I need any female friends when it´s quite unusual anyway (the reasons are stated)? By the way, it´s not an excuse to befriend females. Why would I use an excuse at all when it to me is not any sin? It was just a small reason why I have more female friends than male (by that, let me explain, it does not mean I have more female friends than male but it´s meant as in percentage. It should be around 35-40%. It means as lot more than a normal person has usually. I know confusing but I hope you get it). I´m not encouraging or asking anyone to make female friends. All I´m saying is that you can have bit of friendship with females who are your co-students or co-workers. Nothing else!

And even you (who has everything under control to date) can have a bad day, can’t you? A lapse in concentration, a rare error of judgment etc. Is it that far-fetched an idea? Are you so sure of your infallibility?

I possibly can, but less possibilites with girls than boys (as I have explained above. That I may join them in their shameful acts which they already practice). Some people say that it´s difficult to stay inside limits but I argue against it. To me if one´s faith is firm he cannot cross limits and do any shameful act. Just believe in yourself and your Almighty is needed. If I usually have my bad day I stay quiet and alone, so that rules out the possibility:P.

A girl may start liking a boy in a romantic way, but the boy may respond with “we are just good friends”, and indeed the other way around. There you have the perfect recipe for heartbreaks.

Tell you what, I do not believe in this thing. She will only start liking me in a romantic way if I show her a green signal - if she found me that type of person, or if I responded positively to her hidden 'indications'. But if one remains the way I do then the girl will think more than hundred times before thinking or saying such thing. My behaviour makes it clear that I hate such things. Let me tell you something here: There´s girl where I go for my studies. She falls in so-called love with just about every other boy and they are those who she knows only since weeks or months. I´m not a friend to her but a well-known person to her and meet her every day, ask her how she is and spend quite a time with her. She knows me since three years but she has never dared to say any such garbage to me. She knows that I don´t encourage any such rubbish. The fact is that boys themselves are at fault somewhere if you try to find out the entire story. They behave in a total different way and give that 'green signal' which I mentioned above and then suddenly rudely and say 'we were friends only'. First that "Hi sexy, hi darling" language and then suddenly "we were friends only". That makes the perfect recipe for heartbreaks.

Then, unhealthy rivalries can develop between boys to win the companionship of girls in their class or neighbourhood. Then, in a society where having female company is norm, other boys who don’t have such company (intentionally or otherwise) can feel peer pressure to follow in the footsteps, or else risk being ridiculed for only having male friends (as if that were a sin).

As I said, if you wish you can go astray by doing anything. I have seen boys ridiculing the other boy and taunting him like "aren´t you a man" etc when someone doesn´t join them in their shameful acts. I don´t think that argument helps either.

So you should realize that “I am sure of myself and can refrain myself, and so it’s okay for me to have female friends”, is not the answer. The problem has much more far-reaching consequences than that. It’s not about you alone; it’s about you, her, and the society at large. And it's about islamic rulings, which don't address us on an individual basis. If something applies to you, it applies to me as well. And so too to all the muslims universally.

Yes, it is still wrong. Islamic rules are for everybody and not for individuals. Do you expect different rules for yourself, and different rules for (weak) ordinary mortals?

Momo, why is there any Islamic ruling needed on this at all? For example look at both of us, we both don´t have any reference from The Noble Qur´an or Hadith to support our claims, in this case we are left but to argue each other with facts, logics and points to convince each other. And it hardly happens that one of the two accepts being on the wrong end because to him he uses his own experience, and the other of other people. Since we cannot convince each other none of us has got to put any ruling, and in this case, again, we are left with personal choice. So nobody has the right to say that it´s forbidden in Islam and what I´m doing is wrong. Similarly I don´t behold the right to ask people to make female friends. We now reach the point where we should decide for ourselves. Now if I or anyone commits adultery then he should rightly be punished.

You may not be among those (in fact I am sure you are not) who use the word 'friendship' for their hidden sexual agenda today, but how can you claim that you will never fall into that trap? You are a normal human being like us, aren’t you? You have your temptations as well - may be under control, but temptations nonetheless - no?

No! As I said, immense faith and believe in God and in yourself is needed, nothing will happen! Temptations are in many things, if you wish you can be led astray by countless things.

Allah wants you to stay away from any situation that can lead to regrettable results. That’s for your benefit, and that of the society at large. If this argument of yours is accepted, you may demand next that because you are confident that you won’t do any silly thing after drinking alcohol, your right of doing that should be accepted, and only the people who are not sure about themselves should refrain from alcohol.

Amazed at your argument and logic! How can you compare both these things at all?!!! How can anyone argue that he won´t do any silly things when alcohol itself is a drink filled with intoxication? Once I drink it I´m out of senses and there´s no way how I will control myself. Let me remind you that your argument for prohibition was that it can lead to fornication. Not not friendship itself makes you unconcious. If I´m in friendship with a girl even then I´m in my senses and fully realize what I´m doing, saying etc unless I really wanted to be misled. Certainly not the case with drinking of alcohol. Is it?

Another false analogy. If I were arguing to “prohibit” girls (which I am absolutely not), then you could have used this analogy. Then you would have made sense: Meeting girls and using internet may lead to evil social consequences and pornography, so “prohibit” or “ban” both.

[QUOTE=Momo]Another false analogy. If I were arguing to “prohibit” girls (which I am absolutely not), then you could have used this analogy. Then you would have made sense: Meeting girls and using internet may lead to evil social consequences and pornography, so “prohibit” or “ban” both.

Now I am not saying anything of the sort. I am just saying that friendship with a girl is prohibited (and not the existence of the girl per se). The same goes for porn sites on the internet. Those sites are prohibited according to islam (but not the internet per se). There is no inconsistency there in the case I am arguing here.

Alternatively, your analogy could also have made sense if you had said:
“So is surfing porn sites prohibited? It has to be for those who consider friendship between male and female unlawful.”
Did you use my replacing “internet” with “porn sites”? Now this is a true analogy, and yes, the answer to it is: Of course surfing porn sites is prohibited in islam (as opposed to internet itself). And having friendship with a girl is also prohibited in islam (as opposed to the “prohibition” of women as individuals).

It will really be a miracle if you reached any other conclusion other than that you hold because you are so much against it that you are comparing it to porn sites.

Your logic doesn´t help, because if were to say that porn-sites are equal to friendship of male-female then let me tell you that visiting porn-sites is the ultimate stage and most shameless one after which no one comes in this regard. Whereas for friendship there is another, and that is that of 'sexual relationship'.

Your logic:

Internet = existence of girls per se

Porn-sites = friendship of male-female

?????? = sexual relationship/fornication

An absolute false analogy that is!!!

Mine is the following logic:

Having computers = existence of girls per se

Internet = friendship of male-female

Porn sites = sexual relationship/fornication

I wonder how yours is the true analogy. You slip from your own starting point yourself. Your argument was not that friendship is wrong, but it will lead you astray and hence is prohibited ("Allah wants you to stay away from any situation that can lead to regrettable results"). I in answer to it brought out the matter of Internet which may also result in one being led astray.

Being a friend of someone is absolutely allowed (if that someone is of the same sex as you are). if not, then this “basic” act has potential to result in serious social ills, so the islam I know is against it.

You are claiming that islam is not against being friends with a member of the opposite sex (if no fornication is involved). If that is true, surely you can give many examples of women who were "friends" of Prophet Muhammad, and his companions, right? I am very much interested to know (as far as I know they only had mothers, sisters, wives, or daughters).

But again, if Prophet didn´t have it doesn´t mean he forbade it. And by the way, why must he do everything which is maybe not forbidden? There are many things which are done these days but not 1400 years back. For example, we go to schools, colleges, universities where there are also girls. We start knowing each other and thus become friends. He might have felt no need of it as he had many good, nice male friends, or perhaps it was not a norm in those days´ culture. Remember that The Responsibility he was handed with, was way too huge to have any time to hang out with friends. He had many companions but they weren´t to have chit-chat with or etc but rather to help him spread Islam by going alongside him to preach. I have already stated above that even I didn´t have any female friend in Pakistan. By the way, did he use Internet then? Now, don´t say that it´s more to do with technology which wasn´t present in those days. I mean, do you think he would have spent his time using PC etc even if was available then?

Finally something we both agree on one hundred percent. :)

Another thing we can agree on is a disagree:). I don´t think we will be able to reach any conclusion since none of us can give any reference to it and thus are both trying to prove each other wrong by points, logics. It was a useful debate surely. Few might learnt that male-female friendship is not as easy a relationship as one might think. And others might have learnt that it is not as sinful relationship as they think it to be.

Was good debating with you. Cheers:)!

f.b.m

21st September 2008, 19:40

Momo

22nd September 2008, 05:49

Dhoni's posts make a lot of sense. From an outside point of view, its amazing how consistent and logical the post remains. Besides, it needs a lot of patience not to end it all with a few snide remarks. And if its true that he's born and brought up in Germany, his english is surprisingly good.
Very warm sentiments, f.b.m. And I completely agree with the fact that DHONI183 is one of the most consistently decent, polite, and well-mannered posters around. Always has been.

However, I am convinced that you have commented on his post without even reading it. Otherwise you would not have said:
And if its true that he's born and brought up in Germany, his english is surprisingly good.
Consequently, I have serious doubts about the validity of your 'outside point of view' remark as well (I am not by any means implying here that DHONI's post is not consistent or logical - that will be discussed separately, and on merit - but that yours is not an 'outside point of view').

Many amongst us mortals have this problem, whereby instead of listening carefully to (or reading for that matter), and analyzing what somebody is saying and making up our mind on that basis, we support the speaker we think is fighting for our cause (who is supporting our already made-up minds and lifestyles). Thus we fall into the old trap of justifying what we already do, instead of doing what is correct.

I remember a true story narrated by Dr. Gary Miller that is very illustrative:

In the eightees, a debate between a christian and a muslim was planned and advertised in the North American continent. At the last moment, the christian speaker for some reason refused to honour his word, and so the organizers asked Dr. Miller (who was a Canadian muslim revertee) to show up in his place (the debate was conveted into two lectures by two muslims). At the start of the proceedings, this fact was announced (that no christian will be speaking).

Now when Dr. Miller finished his lecture, the first questioner (a fervent muslim) stood up in question time, and started blasting Dr. Miller for how illogical his lecture was, and how it had also contained many lies. Now, this man was under the impression that Dr. Miller was not a muslim (he must have assumed so from his name, the colour of his skin, and from the original advertisements; when the organizers announced the change of program, he must have been hanging his coat or something).

When he was interrupted in the middle of his tirade, and told that both the lecturers were in fact muslim, our emotional friend (who had obviously not listened to a word of Dr. Miller), said, "Well in that case your speech was beautiful." :)

f.b.m

22nd September 2008, 10:23

Very warm sentiments, f.b.m. And I completely agree with the fact that DHONI183 is one of the most consistently decent, polite, and well-mannered posters around. Always has been.

However, I am convinced that you have commented on his post without even reading it. Otherwise you would not have said:
I dont know whether he is born and brought up in Germany. He said that he didnt have female friends in Pakistan which means he lived for a reasonable amount of time there. Doesnt mean that he was brought up there. My comment was about the fact that he never makes traditional German-English mistakes like saying 'I show a film' or 'I become a mail'.
Consequently, I have serious doubts about the validity of your 'outside point of view' remark as well (I am not by any means implying here that DHONI's post is not consistent or logical - that will be discussed separately, and on merit - but that yours is not an 'outside point of view').
Well, this thread is about an 'Islamic' point of view. Me, being a 'non-muslim' will obviously post from an outside point of view. Thats what I meant.
Many amongst us mortals have this problem, whereby instead of listening carefully to (or reading for that matter), and analyzing what somebody is saying and making up our mind on that basis, we support the speaker we think is fighting for our cause (who is supporting our already made-up minds and lifestyles). Thus we fall into the old trap of justifying what we already do, instead of doing what is correct. I read his post a few times over, I admit I didnt read all of yours (so I never commented on your posts) but yes, his replys are very logical and an outside observer can follow them quite nicely. I dont really care about whose so-called cause anyone's fighting for.

I remember a true story narrated by Dr. Gary Miller that is very illustrative:

In the eightees, a debate between a christian and a muslim was planned and advertised in the North American continent. At the last moment, the christian speaker for some reason refused to honour his word, and so the organizers asked Dr. Miller (who was a Canadian muslim revertee) to show up in his place (the debate was conveted into two lectures by two muslims). At the start of the proceedings, this fact was announced (that no christian will be speaking).

Now when Dr. Miller finished his lecture, the first questioner (a fervent muslim) stood up in question time, and started blasting Dr. Miller for how illogical his lecture was, and how it had also contained many lies. Now, this man was under the impression that Dr. Miller was not a muslim (he must have assumed so from his name, the colour of his skin, and from the original advertisements; when the organizers announced the change of program, he must have been hanging his coat or something).

When he was interrupted in the middle of his tirade, and told that both the lecturers were in fact muslim, our emotional friend (who had obviously not listened to a word of Dr. Miller), said, "Well in that case your speech was beautiful." :)
Yeah, I hear this story without fail every month from a horde of Zakir Naik 'followers' when I'm in the UK. :altaf

Momo

22nd September 2008, 10:38

Well, this thread is about an 'Islamic' point of view. Me, being a 'non-muslim' will obviously post from an outside point of view.
Well that explains it then. In that case everything makes perfect sense, and I am delighted. And you are indeed an 'outsider' then. I apologize for insinuating otherwise earlier. :)

Poison

22nd September 2008, 11:11

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
"In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful".

As always, a very interesting and civil debate with Momo. I enjoy it with you mate:)! I hope we can put some further light on our point of views.

But you can´t call it incorrect either. The fact is that there is no clear prohibition on male-female friendship and therefore no one can put a ruling or Fatwa on fellow Muslim since no one can come to a conclusion through Qur´an or Hadith on this (Verses and Ahadith posted by Ataullah do not give any clear indication therefore a lot of meanings can be taken out of it). And since there´s no reference to it we should be allowed to take it on ourselves and be responsible for it. I take responsibility of myself and I know I will maintain my innocence. I´m not defending because I practice, I practice it because I don´t think it´s a sin.

It will also be a miracle for you to reach any other conclusion either since you may not have befriended any female in your life either. In this case you haven´t experienced it and do not know if controlling yourself, staying in limits, maintaining your innocence, dignity and chastity is possible or not. You look upto other people and their relationships, surveys etc (which might say 90% of friends have sexual relationship) and draw a final conclusion from it that the very basic act of being friends is a sin.

There´s a huge difference in behaviour of a boy and girl. I think one only feels the difference once you know both of these. I really haven´t met ever met any girl who shamelessly talks about sex, uses vulgar language. It´s a common fact that whenever two-three boys are together all they talk about is girls. Surely not all boys are such but let me make my stance clear on this: I go to my school/college, meet my friends, am hanging around with them. Suddenly one shows the other a girl passing by, the other asks the other to spot her private parts, one winks at her, the other whistles. If done with that one one brings out his mobile phone loaded with shameless pictures and videos. All are going mad at it. In this case asking me to take part, if I deny they start making fun of you. Go somewhere else, absolutely alone..... In this case I would rather prefere go to some female friend of mine and talk to her about studies, homework etc. It´s not that I don´t get along with boys because I don´t want to, but rather they themselves are the reason of it. Let me make it clear that I don´t run behind girls etc, or befriend them for the sake of it. That´s the atmosphere here in my environments and my stance thus is justified to me. And I claim that the biggest reason of myself befriending with females is so that I may not turn out like a spoiled brat. And it´s also true that the day my male friends there will start behaving in good manners I will stay all the day with them. No one would believe but I even preach them on Islam. In my life so far I experienced that boys company makes you go more astray. The fact is that girls are such as well but 'some'. I know my post might sound as if befriending boys is a grave sin but what I´m trying to highlight here is that danger is involved in everything. If there´s any danger of going astray at all then it´s more to do with being friend of boys. Agreed that not all boys are like this and no one would know this better than me as I had so many friends there who didn´t use any vulgar language etc, and as a result I didn´t have any female friend then. Why do I need any female friends when it´s quite unusual anyway (the reasons are stated)? By the way, it´s not an excuse to befriend females. Why would I use an excuse at all when it to me is not any sin? It was just a small reason why I have more female friends than male (by that, let me explain, it does not mean I have more female friends than male but it´s meant as in percentage. It should be around 35-40%. It means as lot more than a normal person has usually. I know confusing but I hope you get it). I´m not encouraging or asking anyone to make female friends. All I´m saying is that you can have bit of friendship with females who are your co-students or co-workers. Nothing else!

I possibly can, but less possibilites with girls than boys (as I have explained above. That I may join them in their shameful acts which they already practice). Some people say that it´s difficult to stay inside limits but I argue against it. To me if one´s faith is firm he cannot cross limits and do any shameful act. Just believe in yourself and your Almighty is needed. If I usually have my bad day I stay quiet and alone, so that rules out the possibility:P.

Tell you what, I do not believe in this thing. She will only start liking me in a romantic way if I show her a green signal - if she found me that type of person, or if I responded positively to her hidden 'indications'. But if one remains the way I do then the girl will think more than hundred times before thinking or saying such thing. My behaviour makes it clear that I hate such things. Let me tell you something here: There´s girl where I go for my studies. She falls in so-called love with just about every other boy and they are those who she knows only since weeks or months. I´m not a friend to her but a well-known person to her and meet her every day, ask her how she is and spend quite a time with her. She knows me since three years but she has never dared to say any such garbage to me. She knows that I don´t encourage any such rubbish. The fact is that boys themselves are at fault somewhere if you try to find out the entire story. They behave in a total different way and give that 'green signal' which I mentioned above and then suddenly rudely and say 'we were friends only'. First that "Hi sexy, hi darling" language and then suddenly "we were friends only". That makes the perfect recipe for heartbreaks.

As I said, if you wish you can go astray by doing anything. I have seen boys ridiculing the other boy and taunting him like "aren´t you a man" etc when someone doesn´t join them in their shameful acts. I don´t think that argument helps either.

Momo, why is there any Islamic ruling needed on this at all? For example look at both of us, we both don´t have any reference from The Noble Qur´an or Hadith to support our claims, in this case we are left but to argue each other with facts, logics and points to convince each other. And it hardly happens that one of the two accepts being on the wrong end because to him he uses his own experience, and the other of other people. Since we cannot convince each other none of us has got to put any ruling, and in this case, again, we are left with personal choice. So nobody has the right to say that it´s forbidden in Islam and what I´m doing is wrong. Similarly I don´t behold the right to ask people to make female friends. We now reach the point where we should decide for ourselves. Now if I or anyone commits adultery then he should rightly be punished.

No! As I said, immense faith and believe in God and in yourself is needed, nothing will happen! Temptations are in many things, if you wish you can be led astray by countless things.

Amazed at your argument and logic! How can you compare both these things at all?!!! How can anyone argue that he won´t do any silly things when alcohol itself is a drink filled with intoxication? Once I drink it I´m out of senses and there´s no way how I will control myself. Let me remind you that your argument for prohibition was that it can lead to fornication. Not not friendship itself makes you unconcious. If I´m in friendship with a girl even then I´m in my senses and fully realize what I´m doing, saying etc unless I really wanted to be misled. Certainly not the case with drinking of alcohol. Is it?

[QUOTE=Momo]Another false analogy. If I were arguing to “prohibit” girls (which I am absolutely not), then you could have used this analogy. Then you would have made sense: Meeting girls and using internet may lead to evil social consequences and pornography, so “prohibit” or “ban” both.

It will really be a miracle if you reached any other conclusion other than that you hold because you are so much against it that you are comparing it to porn sites.

Your logic doesn´t help, because if were to say that porn-sites are equal to friendship of male-female then let me tell you that visiting porn-sites is the ultimate stage and most shameless one after which no one comes in this regard. Whereas for friendship there is another, and that is that of 'sexual relationship'.

Your logic:

Internet = existence of girls per se

Porn-sites = friendship of male-female

?????? = sexual relationship/fornication

An absolute false analogy that is!!!

Mine is the following logic:

Having computers = existence of girls per se

Internet = friendship of male-female

Porn sites = sexual relationship/fornication

I wonder how yours is the true analogy. You slip from your own starting point yourself. Your argument was not that friendship is wrong, but it will lead you astray and hence is prohibited ("Allah wants you to stay away from any situation that can lead to regrettable results"). I in answer to it brought out the matter of Internet which may also result in one being led astray.

But again, if Prophet didn´t have it doesn´t mean he forbade it. And by the way, why must he do everything which is maybe not forbidden? There are many things which are done these days but not 1400 years back. For example, we go to schools, colleges, universities where there are also girls. We start knowing each other and thus become friends. He might have felt no need of it as he had many good, nice male friends, or perhaps it was not a norm in those days´ culture. Remember that The Responsibility he was handed with, was way too huge to have any time to hang out with friends. He had many companions but they weren´t to have chit-chat with or etc but rather to help him spread Islam by going alongside him to preach. I have already stated above that even I didn´t have any female friend in Pakistan. By the way, did he use Internet then? Now, don´t say that it´s more to do with technology which wasn´t present in those days. I mean, do you think he would have spent his time using PC etc even if was available then?

Another thing we can agree on is a disagree:). I don´t think we will be able to reach any conclusion since none of us can give any reference to it and thus are both trying to prove each other wrong by points, logics. It was a useful debate surely. Few might learnt that male-female friendship is not as easy a relationship as one might think. And others might have learnt that it is not as sinful relationship as they think it to be.

Was good debating with you. Cheers:)!

I understand what your saying Dhoni, as in, if you know your limits with a friend who is a girl, then why would you breach it?
I mean, its the same here, if I have a non muslim class mate who is a girl, I know nothing will emerge from it, so boundaries are set so as to stop things leading to fornication. It is basically the same with muslim girls who are my friends, we both know the limit to which we can "be friends" and we stick to them, so as to not even incline toward any sort of misconduct which could be described as fornication.
:asif