Pakistan's Best friend: quietly coming to Pakistan's rescue

[Islamabadi]

China is quietly working to provide Pakistan a soft loan of $1.5 billion to overcome its financial crisis in addition to more than $3.7 billion to be invested in the telecom and power generation sectors in the next two to three years, Chinese officials told The News here on Friday.

Despite all security issues and financial pressures, China has decided to stand by its two trusted friends — Pakistan and Nigeria — where China will invest more than $4 billion by the end of 2009, they said.

Top Chinese government officials emphasised that both Nigeria and Pakistan were very important countries for China. Many Chinese oil companies are working in the dangerous Niger delta zone of Nigeria, while in Pakistan China is planning to connect its Xingjian province with African countries through the Gwadar Port.

Chinese experts are sure that their workers in both Nigeria and Pakistan are becoming victims of an international conspiracy and say that China will expose the hands behind this conspiracy very soon.

Nigeria was the first country to get a Chinese satellite in orbit and Pakistan will be the second country to use a Chinese telecommunication satellite by 2011. This satellite, named PakSat-IR, will have a lifespan of 15 years and will open new opportunities for foreign investment in Pakistan.

At a briefing in Beijing on Friday, hundreds of European and dozens of Indian journalists tried their best to force Chinese government officials to say that China would not build two more nuclear power plants for Pakistan but foreign office spokesman Qin Gang told a briefing: “We will help Pakistan for the peaceful use of nuclear energy under the IAEA laws.”

China is also aware of those countries that are not happy over its presence in Africa and Gwadar. A Chinese official told this scribe that three Chinese workers were abducted by unidentified kidnappers this year in Calabar, the capital city of Nigeria’s southern cross-river state.

Five Chinese telecom workers were kidnapped early last year in southern oil city Port Harcourt while two workers of a Chinese company were abducted in southern Nigerian state of Anambra by unidentified kidnappers late last year.

These kidnappings began in 2007 when China announced to provide a multi-billion dollar telecommunication satellite to Nigeria. India organised a powerful public relations campaign in the Chinese newspapers on Friday. Many Chinese papers were filled with “Incredible India” advertisements with pictures of Taj Mahal.

Though, the Pakistani government did nothing to use the Asian-European summit to tell the delegates of 43 countries what China was doing in Pakistan, many Chinese journalists and diplomats were fighting for Pakistan by saying that Pakistan did not support enemies of China like India supported Dalai Lama.

It appears that the Indians cannot make any breakthrough in China until they decide to expel Dalai Lama from India. This Tibetan rebel leader is an “honourable guest” of India for the past many decades.

Chinese government officials have tried to make it clear not only to Indians but also to some Europeans that they are not in a position to help them out of the way. The China Daily gave a clear warning on Friday that the financial crisis was also damaging China’s own economic growth.

[Khabri420]

Pak Cheen bhai bhai :P

[kingusama92]

China rox... now that's a true friend...

[Romali_rotti]

You can thank us Indians for the deep Chinese friendship :)

[Momo]

You can thank us Indians for the deep Chinese friendship :)
:yk

[Savak]

Wait does this mean we do not have to go to the IMF?

[Xoib]

Wait does this mean we do not have to go to the IMF?

I don't know why people are making going to IMF such a big issue, many countries have used their program and done well its only the incompetent one's that have suffered from its consequences later on.

[pk1]

I don't know why people are making going to IMF such a big issue, many countries have used their program and done well its only the incompetent one's that have suffered from its consequences later on.

oh yes no big issues only 30% defence budget cut its like cutting your half testicles off, dependence on "west", a bad name to the world, only beggars approach IMF, and you have to listen to the big boss conditions..
so the question is... are you a beggar?

[Savak]

I don't know why people are making going to IMF such a big issue, many countries have used their program and done well its only the incompetent one's that have suffered from its consequences later on.

I think we have earned the right to be called incompetent.

[Savak]

oh yes no big issues only 30% defence budget cut its like cutting your half testicles off, dependence on "west", a bad name to the world, only beggars approach IMF, and you have to listen to the big boss conditions..
so the question is... are you a beggar?

Well we definately need $4.5 billion solid from somewhere in the next 30 days or we as a nation will go bankrupt. US, China, and other countries, multilateral organizations arent going to bail us out just like that. Unfortunately we will have to go to the IMF in the end in humiliation.

But not all the conditions are bad, 30% cut in defence spending, i say that is a god sent. Not sure about the rest i.e. increase in taxation rates, complete elimination of subsidies. Heck i mean its now $67 dollars a barrel, a situation i could never dream in July where there were predictions this was going to go as high as $200 per barrel.

A reduction in the price of oil is the first step towards the reduction of this killer inflation which is plaguing the economy and our poor people.

[Xoib]

oh yes no big issues only 30% defence budget cut its like cutting your half testicles off, dependence on "west", a bad name to the world, only beggars approach IMF, and you have to listen to the big boss conditions..
so the question is... are you a beggar?

An IMF program would tie our hands and could force Pakistan to take reforms such as privatization, improvement of corporate governance, building a sound financial system, thus creating the basis for greater investment, sustainable growth, and a reduction in the size of the underground economy.

[ECB]

Go General Taso

[Hasan]

While others help Pakistan,the local Pakistanies take their wealth out of Pakistan to invest elsewhere, thereby putting even greater pressure on the currency and foreign reserves.

[pk1]

Well we definately need $4.5 billion solid from somewhere in the next 30 days or we as a nation will go bankrupt. US, China, and other countries, multilateral organizations arent going to bail us out just like that. Unfortunately we will have to go to the IMF in the end in humiliation.

But not all the conditions are bad, 30% cut in defence spending, i say that is a god sent. Not sure about the rest i.e. increase in taxation rates, complete elimination of subsidies. Heck i mean its now $67 dollars a barrel, a situation i could never dream in July where there were predictions this was going to go as high as $200 per barrel.

A reduction in the price of oil is the first step towards the reduction of this killer inflation which is plaguing the economy and our poor people.

like i said.. some people like you have slave mentality! IMF is purely a western step up, which means the money that they give you will not be worth it when they make you their lil B-***! it not as simple as "simple" loan cash and you are free to go!
China is already providing some big cash so i think the problem will be taken care.
and oh ya cut the defence budget so that you will become a slave nation without any defence. it will only help india and i dont think 30% cut will make any difference on awam.

[hashman]

IMF is there to provide financial system stability for economies that are finding the going tough. They can develop packages that can provide 10's of millions of dollars to hopefully get Pakistan out of the mess that they are currently in.

Well we definately need $4.5 billion solid from somewhere in the next 30 days or we as a nation will go bankrupt.

Are you serious about this Savak, we really gonna go bankrupt.

[Xoib]

IMF is there to provide financial system stability for economies that are finding the going tough. They can develop packages that can provide 10's of millions of dollars to hopefully get Pakistan out of the mess that they are currently in.



Are you serious about this Savak, we really gonna go bankrupt.

Bankruptcy thingy is exaggerated but we do need some quick hard cash to stop the free fall.

[pk1]

IMF is there to provide financial system stability for economies that are finding the going tough. They can develop packages that can provide 10's of millions of dollars to hopefully get Pakistan out of the mess that they are currently in.
Are you serious about this Savak, we really gonna go bankrupt.

lol its like saying.. USAID is there to provide financial system stability for economies that are finding the going tough. lol.. but at what cost?
IMF is nothing but even more trouble for us! yes its a short short term solution and it will hurt us in a long term!

[dblock]

While others help Pakistan,the local Pakistanies take their wealth out of Pakistan to invest elsewhere, thereby putting even greater pressure on the currency and foreign reserves.

With 25-30% inflation you can't blame them.

Whatever the overarching position of a country, people have to look at their own finances and the future of their families.

[Savak]

For the record, i am not in favor of going to the IMF but do we have any alternatives given that people are refusing to give us anything door to door.

[Hasan]

With 25-30% inflation you can't blame them.

Whatever the overarching position of a country, people have to look at their own finances and the future of their families.

Yes, I can blame them, as most of these individual have paid very little in taxes to acquire their wealth and represent the very few Pakistans who controls most of the nations resources. There are the same people who contribute very little to the nation's output as most of their wealth is spent on foreign goods and serves. They are nothing short of a blooding sucking leach, when its victim is dead they move onto the next victim.

The type of people I am talking about are the ones you see in Defence (Karachi and Lahore) driving their latest imported models of German luxuary cars, with a false impression that they have acquired some special status.

The good news in that these people may move their wealth out of Pakistan but their forwign investments are also depreciating. The decining rupee is distroying their ill gotten wealth, and when they move it out of the nation they are parking it in declining set of assets (foreign stocks and propoerty). I know about 4 or 5 individual how have seem their wealth decline to virtually nothing as they have invested it in UK and Middle Easter stocks markets.

I just feel sorry for the ordinary person in Pakistan who is suffering from lost jobs and rising cost of living. The wealthy can all go to hell, as they do nothing for Pakistan.

[pk1]

The type of people I am talking about are the ones you see in Defence (Karachi and Lahore) driving their latest imported models of German luxuary cars, with a false impression that they have acquired some special status.


you shouldnt be talking about taxes as you yourself i bet haven't visited pakistan for the past 10 years so i wouldnt be talking. so when was the last time you spend at lest a 100 pounds in pakistan?
so as usual those who are incapable of doing something for pakistan sitting behind the computer and lecturing how the country should be run lol.
you do not know a single person in DHA, their back ground, how they acquired their wealth, but it seems to be a very easy target for bum rams who themself are sitting in "UK"..
their is nothing wrong for having a "GERMAN LUXURY" car in pakistan. we in fact had them ever since 1960s.. even though what you have said hardly 10% is even the truth but even if (very unlikely) if these wealthy people are not paying taxes they at least have enough wealth invested in pakistan and it is helping them!

[dblock]

Yes, I can blame them, as most of these individual have paid very little in taxes to acquire their wealth and represent the very few Pakistans who controls most of the nations resources. There are the same people who contribute very little to the nation's output as most of their wealth is spent on foreign goods and serves. They are nothing short of a blooding sucking leach, when its victim is dead they move onto the next victim.

The type of people I am talking about are the ones you see in Defence (Karachi and Lahore) driving their latest imported models of German luxuary cars, with a false impression that they have acquired some special status.

The good news in that these people may move their wealth out of Pakistan but their forwign investments are also depreciating. The decining rupee is distroying their ill gotten wealth, and when they move it out of the nation they are parking it in declining set of assets (foreign stocks and propoerty). I know about 4 or 5 individual how have seem their wealth decline to virtually nothing as they have invested it in UK and Middle Easter stocks markets.

I just feel sorry for the ordinary person in Pakistan who is suffering from lost jobs and rising cost of living. The wealthy can all go to hell, as they do nothing for Pakistan.

Well on that point I agree with you - I wouldn't assume that every wealthy or upper middle class person in Pakistan is in the position where they have made no contributions.

[Mohsin]

You can thank us Indians for the deep Chinese friendship :)

You can thank us Pakistani's for your friendship with the Russians :)

[pk1]

dont you guys think we are getting bet off track?

arent we suppose to discuss about pak china friend ship and our true friend ship!

[Xoib]

Yes, I can blame them, as most of these individual have paid very little in taxes to acquire their wealth and represent the very few Pakistans who controls most of the nations resources. There are the same people who contribute very little to the nation's output as most of their wealth is spent on foreign goods and serves. They are nothing short of a blooding sucking leach, when its victim is dead they move onto the next victim.

The type of people I am talking about are the ones you see in Defence (Karachi and Lahore) driving their latest imported models of German luxuary cars, with a false impression that they have acquired some special status.

The good news in that these people may move their wealth out of Pakistan but their forwign investments are also depreciating. The decining rupee is distroying their ill gotten wealth, and when they move it out of the nation they are parking it in declining set of assets (foreign stocks and propoerty). I know about 4 or 5 individual how have seem their wealth decline to virtually nothing as they have invested it in UK and Middle Easter stocks markets.

I just feel sorry for the ordinary person in Pakistan who is suffering from lost jobs and rising cost of living. The wealthy can all go to hell, as they do nothing for Pakistan.

What a stupid post talk about generalizing :pissed: .

I think you have a wrong perception that everybody who lives in Defence have earned their wealth through illegal means. *shockhorror* some people have worked hard for it. Yes I live in Defence and yes I OWN an imported German car but dude me and my family have done more for Pakistan then you can ever dream of doing. We pay full taxes, our company is providing employment to our people and all of our investments are in Pakistan and we hope for the prosperity of this country since the growth of our business in linked with the growth of the country.

[pk1]

What a stupid post talk about generalizing :pissed: .

I think you have a wrong perception that everybody who lives in Defence have earned their wealth through illegal means. *shockhorror* some people have worked hard for it. Yes I live in Defence and yes I OWN an imported German car but dude me and my family have done more for Pakistan then you can ever dream of doing. We pay full taxes, our company is providing employment to our people and all of our investments are in Pakistan and we hope for the prosperity of this country since the growth of our business in linked with the growth of the country.

Xoib you are a true pakistani, long time since i have come across anyone like you.. :19:

[pk1]

You can thank us Pakistani's for your friendship with the Russians :)

not really. the Russians like indians only because they are ready to pay big amount of money for russian defense products.. and lol.. lately they have also started to hike prise of old products and india still buys them.

[NO1CIRCKETFAN]

You can thank us Indians for the deep Chinese friendship :)

then you can thank us for the deep russian friendship

[Khabri420]

so what is Mr Shaukat Tareen up to?

[Savak]

What a stupid post talk about generalizing :pissed: .

I think you have a wrong perception that everybody who lives in Defence have earned their wealth through illegal means. *shockhorror* some people have worked hard for it. Yes I live in Defence and yes I OWN an imported German car but dude me and my family have done more for Pakistan then you can ever dream of doing. We pay full taxes, our company is providing employment to our people and all of our investments are in Pakistan and we hope for the prosperity of this country since the growth of our business in linked with the growth of the country.

Thank you. Quality Post. Not everyone who lives in Defence/Clifton has gotten his wealth from illegal means. There are hard working people in this country too.

[Hasan]

I think you have a wrong perception that everybody who lives in Defence have earned their wealth through illegal means. *shockhorror* some people have worked hard for it. Yes I live in Defence and yes I OWN an imported German car but dude me and my family have done more for Pakistan then you can ever dream of doing. We pay full taxes, our company is providing employment to our people and all of our investments are in Pakistan and we hope for the prosperity of this country since the growth of our business in linked with the growth of the country.

Well I am glad that you pay your taxes, sadly a vast majority of your neighbours and friends do not, and if they did then Pakistan as a nation will not be going round the world with its begging bowl.

As regards driving the luxury car, do you know that 50% of your fellow Pakistanis lives on less then a dollar a day. Yes, you may have worked hard to earn your life style, but that does not excuse a system where a man can spend more then $80,000 on a mode of transportion when the average man earns about $600 a year.

Do these fact not upset you, do you now how much of a poor nations resources you are wasting on buying your car? Your car is worth about 130 man year of Pakistani output wasted on a depreciating import, contributing to the declining national currency and wasting foreign exchange reserves.

You my friend is all that is wrong with the nation. You pat yourself on the back thinking you are helping Pakistan, but all you do is to exploite and poor and dying nation. You lead a Western life style in a third world country, to sustain such a life style you must enjoy the benefits of a system which exploits and missllocates resources, because it is not economically possible for one may to buy a car worth $80,000 in a country where the average man earns $600 a year.

I will leave you with a very simple idea which may help you appreciate what harm your life style is doing to a backward and underdevelop country like Pakistan. If we divide the cost of your car by the average gross income of $600, this gives us about 130 years of man years. If we multiply the 130 average man years by the gross income of US ($43,500), this gives us $5.6 million dollars. Do you know what that means, if you were to recreate a life style in a western economic like US, whereby the difference between you and the average US person is the same as it is between you an an average Pakistani, then by comparison your car woudl cost $5.6 million.

If only you understood who much harm your life style does to a poor and backward country like Pakistan. but from your responce clearly you have no idea.

[kablooee87]

People really need to start posting links to articles. It really does make a difference.

[pk1]

@ Hasan

thats called "generalization"

its like saying more then 50% of muslims around the world are "terrorists"!

and you seriously need to get your facts straight becase most of your assumption are based on BS perception of others..

btw stick to your banking you JEW! :133:

[kablooee87]

@ Hasan

thats called "generalization"

its like saying more then 50% of muslims around the world are "terrorists"!

and you seriously need to get your facts straight becase most of your assumption are based on BS perception of others..

btw stick to your banking you JEW! :133:
aaand there goes any credibility that might have existed.

[Hasan]

@ Hasan

thats called "generalization"

its like saying more then 50% of muslims around the world are "terrorists"!

and you seriously need to get your facts straight becase most of your assumption are based on BS perception of others..

btw stick to your banking you JEW!

It seems that education and respect have not played a significant role in your upbringing. But let me help you where others have failed. Below are some fact that you can learn about your own country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/country_profiles/1157960.stm

Fact : GNI of Pakistan was $690 in 2006
An average Luxury Car costs about $60,000 to $100,000, I took a number somewhere in the middle.

[pk1]

It seems that education and respect have not played a significant role in your upbringing. But let me help you where others have failed. Below are some fact that you can learn about your own country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/country_profiles/1157960.stm

Fact : GNI of Pakistan was $690 in 2006
An average Luxury Car costs about $60,000 to $100,000, I took a number somewhere in the middle.

what does that prove that you are an idiot?

i can also provide links that say 50% + muslims are terrorists..
btw are you even Muslim or am i talking to a indian?

[Savak]

Well I am glad that you pay your taxes, sadly a vast majority of your neighbours and friends do not, and if they did then Pakistan as a nation will not be going round the world with its begging bowl.

As regards driving the luxury car, do you know that 50% of your fellow Pakistanis lives on less then a dollar a day. Yes, you may have worked hard to earn your life style, but that does not excuse a system where a man can spend more then $80,000 on a mode of transportion when the average man earns about $600 a year.

Do these fact not upset you, do you now how much of a poor nations resources you are wasting on buying your car? Your car is worth about 130 man year of Pakistani output wasted on a depreciating import, contributing to the declining national currency and wasting foreign exchange reserves.

You my friend is all that is wrong with the nation. You pat yourself on the back thinking you are helping Pakistan, but all you do is to exploite and poor and dying nation. You lead a Western life style in a third world country, to sustain such a life style you must enjoy the benefits of a system which exploits and missllocates resources, because it is not economically possible for one may to buy a car worth $80,000 in a country where the average man earns $600 a year.

I will leave you with a very simple idea which may help you appreciate what harm your life style is doing to a backward and underdevelop country like Pakistan. If we divide the cost of your car by the average gross income of $600, this gives us about 130 years of man years. If we multiply the 130 average man years by the gross income of US ($43,500), this gives us $5.6 million dollars. Do you know what that means, if you were to recreate a life style in a western economic like US, whereby the difference between you and the average US person is the same as it is between you an an average Pakistani, then by comparison your car woudl cost $5.6 million.

If only you understood who much harm your life style does to a poor and backward country like Pakistan. but from your responce clearly you have no idea.

Hey i am all for philanthrophy, Zakat, helping community and society. If people have earned their income through halal, non corrupt means and if they are extremely rich and can afford the lifestyle he chooses to live then there is nothing wrong with it. Bear in mind i have said provided he earned his income through legal, halal, rizk and hard earned means.

But to say that all such individuals who belong in the above category are guilty of the plight of the poor is just not on. This is the situation in the West and most developed countries around the world. At the end of the day, we all want a system where everyone can work hard and earn enough money to support his family and his kids education and to help them get settled. It all starts with the government, if the government in sincere in lifting the plight of the poor then everything else will follow suit.

We need stability, we need 20 years of consistent, uninterrupted economic growth, political stability, foreign investment which will lead to job creation. You talk about insufficient resources, it is upto the government of the day to decide how to best use the resources for the long term success of the country. For that tough choices and leadership is needed.

We are spending 60-70% of our budget on Defence spending and debt servicing. We need to cut down unnecessary defence spending. We need to dramatically increase our funding Education, health and improve the human development and human capital of our country and stimulate technology development and research and development in all our sectors, industries to boost our exports and business services. With more revenue comes more and more job opportunities. Should Pakistan have 20 years of such consistent policies, i can assure you we can reduce unemployment easily.

There are no quick fix solutions. While i agree that the rich should never ever get richer in any society at the expense of the poor but to totally eliminate such a problem is not possible as it exists in all countries in the world. Besides if you have an equal socialist society, there is no incentive to work that extra bit hard, to achieve that extra status. There has to be competition in the economy. It brings out the best and those who perform to the best come out in front.

What we need is Stability. Its not fair to blame and generalize that all rich people living in defence/clifton are responsible for the plight of the poor. I know lots of filthy rich families who are ultra religious and donate generously to charity, do not lead extravagent lifestyles and have everything because of hard work.

In my view it all has to start from the government and everyone who wants to make a difference will do so and will put in that extra effort to do so. Once you have an individual with the track record as Zardari as your all powerful president with his Parliamentarians, Cabinet ministers, Politicians, Judges, media officials its going to be everyone for himself i am afraid in the country.

[Hasan]

what does that prove that you are an idiot?

It proves your an uneducated fool.

i can also provide links that say 50% + muslims are terrorists..
btw are you even Muslim or am i talking to a indian?

no, the only thing you can provide is hard evidence of your own intellectual limitations.

I do not care to continue this exchange with you.

[pk1]

It proves your an uneducated fool.



no, the only thing you can provide is hard evidence of your own intellectual limitations.

I do not care to continue this exchange with you.

lol then you are even a bigger moron with better education and still know nothing about the other part of the world other then nonfactual "limited knowledge" or yours. have you even visited here or you are just being a type writer warrior? have you even done somthing for the poor people or you are just board and decided to be a douchebag trash talker with your pathetic generalization!

[Hasan]

Hey i am all for philanthrophy, Zakat, helping community and society. If people have earned their income through halal, non corrupt means and if they are extremely rich and can afford the lifestyle he chooses to live then there is nothing wrong with it. Bear in mind i have said provided he earned his income through legal, halal, rizk and hard earned means.

No civilised economic system would permit the level of resource or wealth misallocation that we see in Pakistan. Pakistan is a failed economic and social system because it permits the massive disparity between the haves and have not. Islam as a economic and political system has taken a very stong stance against the accumulation of wealth, and aims to ensure a certain minimum standard of living for all its citizens, if such a system was implemented in Pakistan this will require a significant redistribution of wealth, and you will not seen people driving cars which are worth 135 man years

But to say that all such individuals who belong in the above category are guilty of the plight of the poor is just not on. This is the situation in the West and most developed countries around the world. At the end of the day, we all want a system where everyone can work hard and earn enough money to support his family and his kids education and to help them get settled. It all starts with the government, if the government in sincere in lifting the plight of the poor then everything else will follow suit.

I am sorry but this is too simplistic. It is fact and a very sad fact that power and national wealth is concentrated in the hands of a very small minority. These individual claim a significant stake to the nations output, they pay very limited in taxes, and the ordinary man who works very hard to create the output but sees very little in terms of wage or security. I am sorry, but to me this is nothing short of a crime. No fair and just system would permit a poor child to die for lack of simple medical care while only 15 minutes away lives a man who takes pride in speading $80,000 of a car.

We are spending 60-70% of our budget on Defence spending and debt servicing. We need to cut down unnecessary defence spending. We need to dramatically increase our funding Education, health and improve the human development and human capital of our country and stimulate technology development and research and development in all our sectors, industries to boost our exports and business services. With more revenue comes more and more job opportunities. Should Pakistan have 20 years of such consistent policies, i can assure you we can reduce unemployment easily.

Yes, the defence spending needs to be cut back. But a more systematic problem in Pakistan is to do with the great income earners not paying any taxes, and remember that most of the income is concentrated in very few hands. The greatest proportion of income is accrued by the private business sector (the defence crowd) and they simply do not pay tax. Pakistan as a nation has to borrow to pay for the flashy cars and big houses of the rich elite, why do you think we have such a massive deficit and a mountine debt. Pakistan produces very little valuable exports, it consumers far more then it produces, and to finance this consumption it issues debt. However, have you every asked yourself what have we done with this mountain of debt we have incurred, we have no national infrastructure, we have no educational system, we have not medical facilities, so what have we done with all this borrowing? To answer this question all you have to do is go to Defence and look at the houses and the flashy cars. Look inside the houses you will find all kind of expensive imported luxuary items, and talk to the peole and you will realise that they like to go on foreign holidays and like to educate their children in foreign universities.

If the nation produces very little, who do its people pay for these luxuries, well they borrow from the IMF, global financial institutions and capital markets. By borrowing in foreign currency they buy their BMW and 10 bedroom mansions, the the little that the nation does produce is spent on pay off the interest.

There are no quick fix solutions. While i agree that the rich should never ever get richer in any society at the expense of the poor but to totally eliminate such a problem is not possible as it exists in all countries in the world. Besides if you have an equal socialist society, there is no incentive to work that extra bit hard, to achieve that extra status. There has to be competition in the economy. It brings out the best and those who perform to the best come out in front.

Yes there is no quick fix, but realising the causes of the problem is the first step, and the problem lies in a society too hung-up on consumption which it cannot afford. If Pakistan is to achieve economic stability and progress. It will have to stop running deficits, and that is only possible by paying progressive taxes (close to about 40% for the wealthiest) and cutting back on imports in terms of consumer goods (cars, electronics, and foreign trips). Both these changes will imply the rich will not be so rich.

[Islamabadi]

what the hell.......u thread hijackers....stay on topic, topic is china preparing to bailout pakistan even when saudi arabia hasn't given us the oil facility

[pk1]

thanks to hasan jew who came along with his BS generalization.

[Xoib]

Well I am glad that you pay your taxes, sadly a vast majority of your neighbours and friends do not, and if they did then Pakistan as a nation will not be going round the world with its begging bowl.

As regards driving the luxury car, do you know that 50% of your fellow Pakistanis lives on less then a dollar a day. Yes, you may have worked hard to earn your life style, but that does not excuse a system where a man can spend more then $80,000 on a mode of transportion when the average man earns about $600 a year.

Do these fact not upset you, do you now how much of a poor nations resources you are wasting on buying your car? Your car is worth about 130 man year of Pakistani output wasted on a depreciating import, contributing to the declining national currency and wasting foreign exchange reserves.

You my friend is all that is wrong with the nation. You pat yourself on the back thinking you are helping Pakistan, but all you do is to exploite and poor and dying nation. You lead a Western life style in a third world country, to sustain such a life style you must enjoy the benefits of a system which exploits and missllocates resources, because it is not economically possible for one may to buy a car worth $80,000 in a country where the average man earns $600 a year.

I will leave you with a very simple idea which may help you appreciate what harm your life style is doing to a backward and underdevelop country like Pakistan. If we divide the cost of your car by the average gross income of $600, this gives us about 130 years of man years. If we multiply the 130 average man years by the gross income of US ($43,500), this gives us $5.6 million dollars. Do you know what that means, if you were to recreate a life style in a western economic like US, whereby the difference between you and the average US person is the same as it is between you an an average Pakistani, then by comparison your car woudl cost $5.6 million.

If only you understood who much harm your life style does to a poor and backward country like Pakistan. but from your responce clearly you have no idea.

And you have assumed all I am doing is wasting the nations foreign reserves at my own expense. FYI the amount of exports that I contribute for the country is much much higher then the amount I had spend on my one and only imported car.

I believe in capitalism and the disparity of income even exists in the most developed of countries and so it will be much more exploited in a country like Pakistan which lack a transparent system. I believe if a person can afford a good life and has earned his living through halaal means then he should be able to enjoy his life and it should not matter whether he lives in Pakistan USA or Somalia.

If you can not enjoy a good living then what is the incentive to work hard, Bhutto's policy of nationalizing the private industrial sector halted Pakistans growth in the 70's and most of India's recent growth has been built on its strong private sector. The basic motivation for any business is to make profits so that you can increase your standard of living if that incentive is taken away then what is the need of doing that business.

[Hasan]

And you have assumed all I am doing is wasting the nations foreign reserves at my own expense. FYI the amount of exports that I contribute for the country is much much higher then the amount I had spend on my one and only imported car.

Its not about you as an individual but a whole class of economic agents which have done untold harm to the economic position of Pakistan. These economic agents have the characteristics of owing the lion's share of the nations wealth and represent a very small proportion of the population. They set themselves aside from the wider community through excessively high consumption (relative to investment in productive resources) of the nation's resources, and most of their consumption is focused on imported goods. To balance the book they subject the nation to foreign currency borrowing, by making repayment commitments (in foreign currency) to international investors.

I believe in capitalism and the disparity of income even exists in the most developed of countries and so it will be much more exploited in a country like Pakistan which lack a transparent system. I believe if a person can afford a good life and has earned his living through halaal means then he should be able to enjoy his life and it should not matter whether he lives in Pakistan USA or Somalia

You might believe in capitalism but clearly you do not understand it. Remember that capitalism works at both the individual and national levels (and both are connected). Just as a consumer cannot continue to live off borrowed funds, so cannot a nation. Pakistan is a debter nation and one which is about to tell its lends that "sorry, we cannot service are debt any longer", unless the IMF steps in to provide the emergence funding.

Like any borrower, a national also has a credit rating, and Pakistan is about to be declared a bankrupt nation (if it defaults). The implications of this are that Pakistan will not be able to issue debt in the markets (unless it pays a highly punitive spread), and the international value of the national currency is plummit.

If this happens then individuals who earn and do business in Pakistan will be materally impacted. Firstly, the cost of importing vital resources (oil, food, and medical equip.) will go through the roof, this will generate massive inflation (good and services and labour), which will necessate a significant increase in interest rates. An increase in interest rates will result in bank default and a signficant cut back in credit. The end result will be a completely defunct economy, a worthless currency, and an economy with whom on one willing to do any business or make any investments. Pakistan will some a totally failed state like some African countries.

So my friend, be ready to embrace the darker side of capitalisam, which is about to teach Pakistan and its consumers the cold hard realty of living within your means. If Pakistan does default, then be ready for massive (and I mean massive) implications on your and every other business in Pakistan. Be ready to pay 100-120 (currently about 80) rupees per Dollar, be prepared for 50-80% (currently at about 30%) inflation, be ready for massive unemployment and social unrest. Be ready for massive increase in civil and ethinic unrest, and compete breakdown in law and order.

And this is not being over dramatic, just look at todays BBC web site, which has headlines like "Pakistan within days of Defaulting". Unlike before, when Pakistan has come close to default, there have been many to help out, today the entire global is looking at a one in a life time global depression, and no one is going to give Pakistan a free hand in current times. Sadly Pakistan is looking down a very deep hole, and if it falls it will be a long time before it hits the bottom, and when it does it may be too much an effort for it to ever recover.

The international markets are starting to price for this and Pakistan CDS spread are trading at a massive 1500 bp.

So enjoy your car, very soon it may be too expensive and dangerous for you to take it out on the road.

[Amir]

what does that prove that you are an idiot?

i can also provide links that say 50% + muslims are terrorists..
btw are you even Muslim or am i talking to a indian?

Sorry I find this an absolute stupid comment. If he is not Muslim...it doenst mean he is Indian. Indians can be Muslims too I hope you know. And you want to talk about who is a jew, who is Muslim when it has no relavance in this debate....but maybe you need to look at yourself first?

Your ignorance above is very disappointing to see as it sheds a terrible light on fellow Muslims. Just cause someone is not Muslim does not mean there argument holds less weight or that "they are Indian." When has Islam ever became about nationality? You can be white, black, yellow...it doesnt matter but you can still be Muslim.

Anyways onto topic, Pakistan should be kissing up to China as much as possible. They are the next Superpower and have the potential to dethrone America. Nonetheless, the country that we already have somewhat established ties with is doing well and we should look to build on that. China can help us greatly.

[Hasan]

Amir,

I do not think China will advance any funds to Pakistan, esp. given the global economic current conditions (why should they). Pakistan needs to realise that it only have one option, take the IMF bailout (as a short term) solution to avoid default, and thereafter become very very ruthless on controlling wasteful imports (cars & electronics), restrict movement of funds out of Pakistan by Pakistanies (individual and companise), and trully reform the tax structure such that those private and wealthy individuals who have not paid their taxes are treated ruthlessly.

If not Pakistan is going down the pan economically, as on one is willing to lend to Pakistan any longer given its current position.

[Amir]

Amir,

I do not think China will advance any funds to Pakistan, esp. given the global economic current conditions (why should they). Pakistan needs to realise that it only have one option, take the IMF bailout (as a short term) solution to avoid default, and thereafter become very very ruthless on controlling wasteful imports (cars & electronics), restrict movement of funds out of Pakistan by Pakistanies (individual and companise), and trully reform the tax structure such that those private and wealthy individuals who have not paid their taxes are treated ruthlessly.

If not Pakistan is going down the pan economically, as on one is willing to lend to Pakistan any longer given its current position.

All very ideal points but lets get real those won't happen. We do need IMF fund to avoid a complete collapse. People are worried about pride and being percieved as a third world nation....but have you seen our country in the past year? With the image presented, its only going to get worse as FDI will continue to shrink.

Taxing the rich? Its the pakistan government, that means tehy have to tax themselves...not happening.

And I am not talking about China advancing funds, though that would help. We should look to strengthen our long term ties with China because they are one of the few countries with a surplus right now...they can assist us greatly...even if it is 1 billion. Second, we can establish a stronger trade ties and thus help the price of things like food and other commodities to be lower, than import them from a far distance with a greater transportation charge. But when does our gov't ever care for the small people?

[Hasan]

All very ideal points but lets get real those won't happen. We do need IMF fund to avoid a complete collapse. People are worried about pride and being percieved as a third world nation....but have you seen our country in the past year? With the image presented, its only going to get worse as FDI will continue to shrink.

I am getting real, Pakistan no longer has the option of spending beyond it means and hoping for a handout. Remember that even if IMF does lend the funds to Pakistan, which only gets us over our immediate problem, this is not a long term solution.

I agree on a longer basis Pakistan should look towards fuller integration with China, but my concern is that there may not be a longer term horizon.

Pakistan has to fix its immediate economic problems and they can only be achieved by significant increase in import duties (which will be difficult with IMF borrowing), massive and wholesale reform of personal and corporate tax, and heavy controls on outflow of funds.

This may seem a dream, but let me tell you the nightmare which is slowly coming true will mean the end of Pakistan as we know it. Pakistan will become the untouchable nation in all aspect of international affairs.

Pakistan faces the simple reality, learn to live within your means or learn to hungry!

[Hasan]

Realisation of the economic nightmare.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7693618.stm