Sharifs disqualified, governor rule imposed in Punjab [Archive] - PakPassion

View Full Version : Sharifs disqualified, governor rule imposed in Punjab

Islamabadi

25th February 2009, 06:30

kse down 150

shehbaz no longer cm of punjab

more bloodshead and police brutality likely

long March Zindabad

Source: Geo news

Lahoria

25th February 2009, 06:44

PPP just shot itself in the foot, I promise you their govt won't last the year. Sadly Punjab will loose probably the best CM in the history of Pakistan.

aabbasi

25th February 2009, 07:47

I cann't imagine how stupid PPP is ?? How can they declare the best leader in the country as ineligible ?

Islamabadi

25th February 2009, 08:19

KSE DOWN over 300 Points

ANP diasgrees with the decision... should be interesting.... midterm elections anyone

kayanni

25th February 2009, 08:43

they are all bad as each other...... hate the lot of them

complete gutter politics.......

PPP called PML-Q - qatil league after BB's death but now want to snuggle upto them to control punjab

PML-N called PML-Q traitors - but also want to snuggle upto them to keep control of punjab

MQM hate PML-N - guess what MQM were hugging Shabhaz in Karachi last week.....

pk1

25th February 2009, 09:14

what a complete gutter politics we have in pakistan! one thug after another!
PMLQ is over
PPP is about to end
now PMLN should get a chance to take over and get the taste of drones attacks which they bloodly claim to stop.. (i mean get the taste of US policy) i bet they will serve them 10 times more then the previous parties and for fk sake i am not even a supporter of MQM PPP or PMLQ nor that cricket captain imran kan.

its in PMLN favor to stay out of politics for another 10 years because they that way they will be able to drag this judiciary garbage and stay out of US policy.
PMLN will not last 2-3 days front of US if they keep their stance.

Zeenix

25th February 2009, 09:49

Interesting political development, undoubtedly its a legal issue and SC decision has to be analyzed within the correct perspective. However worrying signs for the govt.

Questions are
1) Who is going to be the next CM of Punjab
2) Will it be PPP+PML-Q
3) Will the President use his discretionary powers and allow Sharif brothers.

However one thing is for sure, at the moment reaction is only limited to Punjab, i think in a day or two the reaction will subside.

Between a top-level meeting is being held at the President House.

Asim2Good

25th February 2009, 09:53

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/Asim2Good/c1.gif

waqar_ahmad

25th February 2009, 15:31

http://thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=69686

Many articles on this. The main points are:

1. Both sharifs disqualied
2. Taseer will rule as per zardari's orders
3. NS says zardari offered them a deal

The judiciary is just zardari's poodle. THis might be a blessing in disguise. Now PML-N will go all out against PPP.

The more time zardari stays as president, the more abominable he becomes. I sincerely hope his govt is shattered to the core by the lawyers long march.

Momo

25th February 2009, 15:34

I am not a big Nawaz Sharif fan but Punjab lost a good CM in Shehbaz Sharif.

waqar_ahmad

25th February 2009, 16:19

Da Best

25th February 2009, 16:24

PPP has completely lost there credibility ( not like they had any ) from me. Zardari is just using his power get his ways around now. Zardari won't last the year.

waqar_ahmad

25th February 2009, 16:58

All i can say is that zardari is a jack@ss. Anyone who says otherwise is biased

Zeenix

25th February 2009, 17:07

ha....its not a legal issue. Are you serious that naive? Had pml-n not sided with the lawyers, zardari would not have had them disqualified.

ANd like momo said. pml-n is not clean, but punjab has lost a very good CM

I agree with Momo. A course mate of mine, a deputy sect told me, that Shahbaz sharif didn't sleep himself and neither did he let the bureaucracy sleep. Punjab was PML-N main constituency and they had to make sure they didn't loose it.

Other then that, there is nothing unconstitutional in it. Islamabad is surrounded by Punjab, and there had to be a reaction from the Federal govt, if a provincial turns antagonistic against it and threatens to send thousand of people to disrupt the capital.

Again there is only one judge unrestored. The rest have been restored, and happily performing their duties. So such an attitude wasn't wise enough, considering the conditions that the country is in.

If SC disqualifies the chief minister of a province then there is no other option then imposing Governer Rule. And especially if violence ensues.

Golden arm

25th February 2009, 17:14

This is the second most unfortunate incident in history of Pakistan in last one year. the first one , murder of benazir,
Interestingly MR ZARDARI involved in both cases.
seems like ZARDARI wants 2 split Pakistan and cause irreparable damage 2 our beloved country.

waqar_ahmad

25th February 2009, 17:22

I agree with Momo. A course mate of mine, a deputy sect told me, that Shahbaz sharif didn't sleep himself and neither did he let the bureaucracy sleep. Punjab was PML-N main constituency and they had to make sure they didn't loose it.

Other then that, there is nothing unconstitutional in it. Islamabad is surrounded by Punjab, and there had to be a reaction from the Federal govt, if a provincial turns antagonistic against it and threatens to send thousand of people to disrupt the capital.

Again there is only one judge unrestored. The rest have been restored, and happily performing their duties. So such an attitude wasn't wise enough, considering the conditions that the country is in.

If SC disqualifies the chief minister of a province then there is no other option then imposing Governer Rule. And especially if violence ensues.

CM was not going to take part in the protest himself. And where does it say that a party ruling a province can not protest?

they were disqualified coz ZARDARI WANTED IT. It is not about being constitutional or unconstitutional. Its abotu what zardari wants.

And please dont bring up the judges issue, the number of twists zardari has done on this one issue, he might be pakistan's main ballade dancer

The way zardari hasbeen dry cleaned with NRO, everyone in pak should be allowed to contest the elections, even those who are in jail right now.

Zardari is the biggest beghairat in the history of pakistan

Mohsin

25th February 2009, 17:24

Absolutely pathetic decision, PPP has shot itself in the foot!

Punjab has lost on of, if not the best CM in Shahbaz and this will just stir even more unrest,

Mid-term elections anyone............followed by a PML(N) government of course

Wazeeri

25th February 2009, 17:35

Zeenix

This is a stupid move by the PPP, not just a legal matter because as far as the law is concerned Zardari should also be disqualified.

PPP has been playing dirty politics and this is another example of it. They used the possibility of disqualification as a tool to blackmail the PML-N.

Big Daddy

25th February 2009, 17:39

it will get ugly before it gets better. rest assured when it does, zardari wont be in the mix

Zeenix

25th February 2009, 17:45

CM was not going to take part in the protest himself. And where does it say that a party ruling a province can not protest?

they were disqualified coz ZARDARI WANTED IT. It is not about being constitutional or unconstitutional. Its abotu what zardari wants.

And please dont bring up the judges issue, the number of twists zardari has done on this one issue, he might be pakistan's main ballade dancer

The way zardari hasbeen dry cleaned with NRO, everyone in pak should be allowed to contest the elections, even those who are in jail right now.

Zardari is the biggest beghairat in the history of pakistan

You can give as many twists and turns to it, but the fact remains that Sharifs are disqualified by the Court and not Zardari.

There is a certain code that provincial govt should follow, and one of the point is that it shouldn't be antagonistic against the Federal govt. Imagine, if every province turns that way, what will become of the federal govt.

And yes while i must say that Sharif brothers shouldn't have been disqualified, but thats a personal opinion, the court ruled against them. lets see what happens in the next two months. A PPP+PML-q coalition is now quite possible, which offcourse will give Sharif brothers nightmares. Their vote base is punjab, outside punjab they are nothing. They lost it for 5 years to Q, they can't afford to loose it this time.

It isn't as if PML-N has a divine right to rule Punjab. PPP is not far behind, and with Q support, it can form its govt.

And between, FYI other then those retired, baring Choudry every judge has been re-instanted (and you must appreciate that they weren't dismissed by the current govt).

Zechariah

25th February 2009, 17:50

A few weeks ago around 30 nazims from Punjab wrote a letter to Zardari saying that the Punjab government is creating hurdles in local decisions, what was that all about?

Wazeeri

25th February 2009, 18:04

A few weeks ago around 30 nazims from Punjab wrote a letter to Zardari saying that the Punjab government is creating hurdles in local decisions, what was that all about?

That was about PPP trying to find a way of getting rid of Nawaz.
They decided that this was an easier option.

Wazeeri

25th February 2009, 18:06

You can give as many twists and turns to it, but the fact remains that Sharifs are disqualified by the Court and not Zardari.

A court made up of judges who had to come back on zardari's terms.

And between, FYI other then those retired, baring Choudry every judge has been re-instanted

Chaudry being the guy whose sacking was the trigger of all the judges leaving in the first place.

mumtaz

25th February 2009, 18:16

And between, FYI other then those retired, baring Choudry every judge has been re-instanted (and you must appreciate that they weren't dismissed by the current govt).

I am sure thats not correct. One name other than Chaudhary that comes to mind is Khalil-ur-Rahman Ramday. As far as I remember, there are at least 4 SC judges that have not been restored in addition to some HC judges.

ali110

25th February 2009, 18:21

How many times we have seen this and I don't know how many times we will see this Drama again in our life time. These corrupts, blood sucking people (politicians and army generals with Mullahs) will remain in power. It's just a matter of their turn. It's like a musical chair and everybody wants to sit on it. Whether it's Sharif's, Zardari's, Fazlu's, regional party leaders, they all are the same. Blood sucking dracula's and they simply can't live without sucking the last drop of blood from AWAM.
Even though I am not very pessimistic but we don't deserve true and honest leaders. These Zardari's, Sharif's are the true reflection of ourselves as a people of pakistan.

waqar_ahmad

25th February 2009, 18:49

You can give as many twists and turns to it, but the fact remains that Sharifs are disqualified by the Court and not Zardari.
That is exactly why I used the word "naive". EIther you are that, or you jsut choose to accept what fits your model of "Zardari is the best".

I do not mean any disrespect, but you are clearly biased. Hence, any argument is futile. If something similar was done by mush, you would have made a big fuss.

There is a certain code that provincial govt should follow, and one of the point is that it shouldn't be antagonistic against the Federal govt. Imagine, if every province turns that way, what will become of the federal govt.

Right, so that means disqualify them? And no, there is no such code. Protesting is the right of everyone.

And yes while i must say that Sharif brothers shouldn't have been disqualified, but thats a personal opinion, the court ruled against them. lets see what happens in the next two months. A PPP+PML-q coalition is now quite possible, which offcourse will give Sharif brothers nightmares. Their vote base is punjab, outside punjab they are nothing. They lost it for 5 years to Q, they can't afford to loose it this time.

Ok, so?

It isn't as if PML-N has a divine right to rule Punjab. PPP is not far behind, and with Q support, it can form its govt.

No one said it is their divine right. You are going off topic

And between, FYI other then those retired, baring Choudry every judge has been re-instanted (and you must appreciate that they weren't dismissed by the current govt).

With a poodle being the CJ? You have got to be kidding me.

The very reason why the CJ is not reinstated is the NRO. And the current judiciary is protecting that. Please, stop acting like a jiyala. You are not dealing with innocent uneducated farmers from interior Sindh on here who love PPP no matter what

Like I said, you are biased. There is no use arguing with you. You will always believe that PPP is right, no matter what. No matter if they sell pakistan, you will come up with an excuse. Once again, no disrespect intended zeenix.

Now, I would like you to flip the script and say that im biased against PPP. I am waiting for that

waqar_ahmad

25th February 2009, 19:00

A few weeks ago around 30 nazims from Punjab wrote a letter to Zardari saying that the Punjab government is creating hurdles in local decisions, what was that all about?
Waz answered this.

You mentioned that I should change my sig. Well, here you go!!

Savak

25th February 2009, 19:04

You know the no of chances politicians, the generals have had to run this country honestly, sincerely and on merit that day is not far away when we face an Iran Style Islamic Revolution, only difference is it will all be Taliban inspired.

suhaib

25th February 2009, 19:40

zadari has just done what the sherrifs of punjab wanted him to do, he surly doesnt even know ABC of politics, we will probably be seeing massive choas throughout the year at a time when we are on the edge of war, all these politians are playing into the hands of CIA, we may soon see both india and usa attack us.
good thing that has happened is that kamran lashari has been appointed punjab chief secretry, probably the only good politian along with mustfa kamal in the goverment right now.

Zeenix

26th February 2009, 03:09

I like the way people put their case. Putting forward Assumptions, as if they were facts.

Assumption No 1: Since Zardari is the president, hence he has all the powers in the world and the Military, the agencies have all vanished overnight, and relinquished their iron-clad control to Zardari

(a person whom they had been persecuting for around 13 years).

Assumption No 2: Since Zardari benefited from BB death, hence he was the murderer.

(Despite the fact that Zardari fresh from prison, was in Abu-Dhabi, at the time of murder, had almost no control on PPP, yet he manages to kill one of the most popular leader in the history of Pakistan, and conveniently forgetting that Musharaf was the one who threatened BB).

Assumption No 3: Since Zardari is the president the PM is a puppet.

(Forgetting that the same Gillani stood up against BB when he was the speaker)

Assumption No 4: Since Zardari is the president the Supreme Court is a puppet.

(And the Supreme court consists almost all of those who were sacked by Musharaf except ONE, and Musharaf was kicked out by Zardari)

Assumption No 5: Since Supreme Court is a puppet hence they delivered a verdict according to Zardari wishes.

(And forgetting that it was the Govt who was the defendant, it was the govt who had appealed to the supreme court after Lahore High Court had given the decision against Sharifs )

Assumption No 6: Since the PM is a puppet, he Advised the President to impose Governer Rule on Punjab

(Yes and forget that in the absence of a CM and his cabinet, the powers are automatically transferred to the governer, and in view of the Law and order situation that had deteriorated rapidly, there was no other option except imposing Governer Rule. After all Governor Rule is enshrined in the constitution for the same very reason).

But Zardari is Bad Bad Bad guy.. Since he sneezes, sneezing becomes an evil act.

Zeenix

26th February 2009, 03:10

I am sure thats not correct. One name other than Chaudhary that comes to mind is Khalil-ur-Rahman Ramday. As far as I remember, there are at least 4 SC judges that have not been restored in addition to some HC judges.

Those who were not restored had reached their retirement age and retired along with the benefits.

Zeenix

26th February 2009, 03:14

No wonder Sharif brothers were supporting him

DERA GHAZI KHAN: Deposed chief justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry said on Wednesday that masses had rejected the Supreme Court’s decision (disqualifying Sharif brothers).

Zeenix

26th February 2009, 03:15

That was about PPP trying to find a way of getting rid of Nawaz.
They decided that this was an easier option.

And to which party do the Nazim's belong i wonder..

mumtaz

26th February 2009, 03:31

Those who were not restored had reached their retirement age and retired along with the benefits.

Again thats not correct. Justice Ramday was born in January, 1945 and hence still has about a year left till his retirement in Jan 2010. The same goes for Justice Javaid Iqbal, born in 1946.

Momo

26th February 2009, 09:17

Some passionate and interesting views expressed on this thread. :)

Some additional food for thought:

Zardari: is in a difficult position here. While he must be happy that his most threatening rivals have been disqualified, he would also be apprehensive about the massive sympathy wave that they are sure to ride. Considering their already massive support especially in Punjab, Zardari must be a little wary.

He must also be worried about the possibility of the unrest resulting from this getting out of hand, resulting in another military coup etc.

But he had no choice. The decision to disqualify Sharifs was taken in Washington and Zardari is in no mood (or position) to resist that. He needs more aid from US 'to fight terror' and there's no way he would say no to them. That's why he gave his blessings to this court decision.

Kayani: is in US this very minute. He needs more aid from US as well. In this respect, he is Zardari's brother. He can't deny US wishes any more than Zardari can. The court decision definitely had Kayani's blessings as well.

But he has the luxury of time (which all COASs of the past have enjoyed, but which Zardari being a politician lacks). He can afford to wait and see. Let Zardari take the unpopular decisions and face the displeasure of public, and think about his next move according to the situation.

If there is no long or serious protest in Punjab, he can go along with Zardari (and US) all the while giving an impression that he is a reluctant party (and many people will believe him I dare say). If, on the other hand, the unrest gets out of hand he can always take over citing Zardari's shameless subservience to US and selling of Pakistani interests. In that case too, many will welcome him. So apparently it's a win-win situation for him.

I say apparently because although he has the power to take over but as soon as he does that, he will be in the boots of Zardari, and he will lose the luxury of time and somebody else's shoulder to fire his weapon from. But he has a secret ace up his sleeve, which I will come to a little later.

The Sharifs: are the most popular political leaders of Pakistan today. They will no doubt grow in popularity because of this court decision.

Despite the fact that Shehbaz Sharif is more practical, more intelligent, and more level-headed than Nawaz Sharif (has always been) he never really came out of his elder brother's shadow. Nawaz Sharif with all his past and present Ameer-ul-Momineen kind of hallucinations is one man who is not acceptable to the US because of his pro Taliban kind of image (real or carefully crafted is beside the point). The US is in no mood for peace with 'insurgents' and Sharifs don't come across as anything but pacifiers. [The recent deal in NWFP isn't an exception either. The deal is there but the Army is still there. Tells you about the confidence in that one. And I won't be surprised if it was violated by one party or the other pretty soon. And that will be because nobody wishes to have peace with them - at least the people in power don't.]

The Sharifs' dilemma is that one of the reasons why they are popular in Pakistan turned out to be the major reason for this court decision. Although had they been in government I am sure they would have been far milder.

As for their popularity, sadly that's not necessarily what gets one elected to the highest office in Pakistan. Plus their inability to fight elections will be a big problem because there is no party culture in Pakistan and a party leader can't control the party for long unless he is also the parliamentary leader. Unless of course he is Altaf Bhai.

Musharraf: is the secret weapon up Kayani's sleeve. It's highly probable that Musharraf's 'service' to Pakistan is not over yet.

Some facts: Musharraf is still living in the Army House (so many months after he resigned). Why? He is still being given military protection pretty similar to what he got while in power. Why? I mean the normal security being an ex president is fine, but he is getting extensive security (definitely not what Tarar is enjoying). Kayani instead is living in the same house he was using as Corps Commander. Why? This in a country where nobody goes to welcome a PM on the airport (and he has to take a taxi home) if he has been dismissed during his trip abroad!

Kayani (if he has to resort to plan B) won't like to take over himself. He knows it's better to be a king-maker than a king when the real decision-makers are in US. He would therefore like a figure who doesn't ring fire alarms in the minds of enlightened moderates around the world and inside Pakistan. Musharraf is just the man he needs.

The non entities: No disrespect intended, and this is not a critique of anybody's motives or anything but just a statement defining the reality of today's Pakistan.

Gillani, Justice Iftikhar, Imran Khan, et al: Hardly in a position to do anything effective. At least in the near future. At the moment each one of these is a distraction at best.

ehjaz

26th February 2009, 09:43

BTW Mr. Governer (the pimp of politics) will have few laughs now but for sure it will be someone else laughing at the end

kayanni

26th February 2009, 14:32

http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=69787

this is how democratic our politicians are........... encouraging people to loot, burn cars, fight in the name of contesting this decision.........

who are affected the common man whose house, car or shop is vandalised........

Protest by all means but respect the rule of law

kayanni

26th February 2009, 14:32

at the end of the day the people voted the ppp into power.......

Savak

26th February 2009, 15:13

at the end of the day the people voted the ppp into power.......

Democracy cannot work in Pakistan. Period. The country does not have the time it will take people to make the right decisions. I hate it when people say democracy for the sake of democracy. Should we wait for 20-30 years before the people make the right choice? So what if we finally make the right choice? Will people let the guy rule the country? I dont think so, he will be assassinated immediately or eventually.

Crickteria

26th February 2009, 15:27

On one hand the " Ganja Brothers " do not accept the authority of the current supreme court, yet are going nuts over a decision issued by the same supreme court? Come to think of it, this decision should be insignificant for them. This SC basically upheld the ruling issued by Lahore high court last year. They should have gone nuts then, not now. Their actions and the language that they have used is not of a mature politician or leader but a street thug.

Golden arm

26th February 2009, 15:42

Momo
the Moderator

You seem to be seasoned analyst.
I am really impressed by your political views. You definitely gave other dimensions to the current political scenerio.
I cant agree you more. Esp about Kayani, this court decision at this particular moment when he is in US,has his absolute backing.
This might be preparation / base 2 give sharif brothers more role in the future.

But you forgot one KEY PLAYER: SALMAN TASEER?

Zechariah

26th February 2009, 16:51

No wonder Sharif brothers were supporting him

Why is ex CJ speaking in favor of Sharifs when he is truly impartial as people say?

Wazeeri

26th February 2009, 17:39

No wonder Sharif brothers were supporting him

You have changed your tone.

What he did he did, we have nothing to do with that. What he is doing now is more important. He stood for the independence of judiciary. He took the govt to task selling steel mills for peanuts. And he had to pay for his decisions, and he is still paying for it. People start screaming about a person past, totally forgetting about the present, trying to suggest sinister motives behind the principled stand of the 60 judges who didn't take oath under the PCO. And how can you say our judicial system is a joke. You have proven yourself a joker by saying that. If our judicial system can produce the likes of Justice Ramday, bhagwandaas, iftikhar chaudry and co, well it is doing its job well.

Thats a rubbish post and contrary to the facts. First of All CJ hasn't addressed a single public gathering, No political party workers were allowed in any address that he made to the Bar Council, being a chief justice its his legal right to address them. During his journey, he never spoke to the media men, or political gatherings.

Once Mush found out that the CJ isn't going to bow down, he (the coward that he is) made this reference issue.

Kudos to the lawyers who stood for their CJ and in the process slapped the idiot and the institution supporting him back in the face.

So when CJ was up against Musharraf he was a hero who stood for the truth, a man who was correct in his approach.

Now that CJ is up against the PPP his critique of the judiciary is tainted.

Wazeeri

26th February 2009, 17:40

Why is ex CJ speaking in favor of Sharifs when he is truly impartial as people say?

Because he is right, The Judiciary had already ruled on the Sharif's entitlement to stand for power.

Zechariah

26th February 2009, 18:07

Because he is right, The Judiciary had already ruled on the Sharif's entitlement to stand for power.

When was this? Back in November or so in 2007?

Wazeeri

26th February 2009, 18:08

When was this? Back in November or so in 2007?

I think so,

It was on Sharifs return to pakistan.

This ruling has been given on a bizarre technicality which I don't understand at the moment.

Zechariah

26th February 2009, 18:09

I think so,

It was on Sharifs return to pakistan.

This ruling has been given on a bizarre technicality which I don't understand at the moment.

I always thought it was for his return only and not for the public office though.

suhaib

26th February 2009, 18:10

waziri

:))) :))) :)))

im sure you know who gave that decison, bright boy.

Wazeeri

26th February 2009, 18:15

im sure you know who gave that decison, bright boy.

What's your point?

Wazeeri

26th February 2009, 18:23

Zech

My bad!

The decission was in favour of his return. His eligibility case was deferred.

However Shahbaz was allowed to stand in the elections.

suhaib

26th February 2009, 18:29

Zech

My bad!

The decission was in favour of his return. His eligibility case was deferred.

However Shahbaz was allowed to stand in the elections.

so why have you been shouting from the top of your head in the last 2 threads.

and no shahbaz sherrif wasnt allowed either, he did not stand in the general elections.

Wazeeri

26th February 2009, 18:32

and no shahbaz sherrif wasnt allowed either, he did not stand in the general elections.

He was the Chief Minister, he has just been removed.

suhaib

26th February 2009, 18:34

He was the Chief Minister, he has just been removed.

ok einstein i can see that is well, but he was not allowed to participate in the 2008 general elections

Zechariah

26th February 2009, 18:38

If he was not allowed, how did he become CM then?

suhaib

26th February 2009, 18:40

i guess thats makes him an illegal chief minister in the first place.

Wazeeri

26th February 2009, 19:20

Zech

I can't find details of the rulings anywhere.

The only thing I can guess is that maybe Shahbaz has been implicated in the plane hijacking along with Nawaz.

Crickteria

26th February 2009, 19:50

Zech

I can't find details of the rulings anywhere.

The only thing I can guess is that maybe Shahbaz has been implicated in the plane hijacking along with Nawaz.

I don't have the full details either but there was a case against him called " Sabza-Zar" case in Lahore. He did not participate in the general elections because of that. However after the elections in which PML-N got majority vote in Punjab, the other party in the case mysteriously withdrew the case against Shahbaz. I wonder why? I think that is how he was able to contest in the by-elections and won from 2 places and later became CM. Remember it was the other guy named "Khosa" who was CM for several months.

Wazeeri

26th February 2009, 20:17

Normally thenews publish full transcripts of rulings but nothing so far.

Momo

26th February 2009, 20:19

His CM candidacy was based on a Bhakkar seat won in the 2008 bye-elections.

But this court ruling hasn't exactly come out of the blue. There was a long debate in the summer of 2008, among people sympathetic to PML(N), about whether he should avail the opportunity of becoming CM for the second time, under a cloud of uncertainty (there was a very real probability even at that time that he could be disqualified at a later date even though his nomination papers for bye-elections had been accepted and he was declared a winner).

The issue was all the more significant considering the PO setting the upper limit for CM (in addition to PM) terms to two. I remember Nazir Naji wrote a series of columns advising Shahbaz Sharif not to become CM because it was his last chance and his term could come to an end pretty prematurely.

This court decision thus is hardly surprising. Even the Sharif's aren't surprised I dare say. It's just that their worst fears have been realized.

Wazeeri

26th February 2009, 20:23

The worst thing about this news is that their candidacy will become valid very soon through either horse trading or a mid term election which they are in some sort of power to start.

Once that happens then we will see the cycle of PPP veterans being declared inelligible in PML-N governments and vice versa. The legal system will be made a mockery off.

suhaib

26th February 2009, 20:28

I don't have the full details either but there was a case against him called " Sabza-Zar" case in Lahore. He did not participate in the general elections because of that. However after the elections in which PML-N got majority vote in Punjab, the other party in the case mysteriously withdrew the case against Shahbaz. I wonder why? I think that is how he was able to contest in the by-elections and won from 2 places and later became CM. Remember it was the other guy named "Khosa" who was CM for several months.

ye that is right, he had a case on him for getting someone murdered in sabzazar town when he was cm last time,
person who had filed the report passed away and his family withdrew the case 2/3 days before the by elections.

Momo

26th February 2009, 21:07

But you forgot one KEY PLAYER: SALMAN TASEER?
Salman Taseer despite his menacing looks (brown eyeglasses and all) is little more than Zardari's man in Lahore.

I think he can be considered as Zardari's extension. By profession he is a broker and is sure to attempt in the coming days a deal or two on behalf of the president.

waqar_ahmad

26th February 2009, 21:53

Assumption No 4: Since Zardari is the president the Supreme Court is a puppet.

(And the Supreme court consists almost all of those who were sacked by Musharaf except ONE, and Musharaf was kicked out by Zardari)

Assumption No 5: Since Supreme Court is a puppet hence they delivered a verdict according to Zardari wishes.

(And forgetting that it was the Govt who was the defendant, it was the govt who had appealed to the supreme court after Lahore High Court had given the decision against Sharifs )

I cant say anything about the military, or agencies, but the courts are under zardari. You can refuse to accept it, but this decision is zardari's decision. DO you mean to tel me that courts are independent?

You said the govt was the defendant. First of all, this doesnt prove jack. I dont think I need to tel you that the fact the govt is the defendant doesnt mean anything. I dont think I need to tell you how the govt clears some people who the govt itself is prosecuting, by telling the govt lawyers to "go easy."

Now, lets assume that the above is not true. Ok then, watch this episode of capital talk. The lawyer himself says how Khosa spoke against NS. Watch it!!!

http://pkpolitics.com/2009/02/25/capital-talk-25-february-2009/

I told you before, saying lame stuff like "govt was the defendant" is not convincing enough. The lawyer, who was in the court, is saying what Khosa said.

It is also discussed in this episode how zardari's henchmen were cleared within days by the same supreme court.

Supreme court my @ss

You have changed your tone.

So when CJ was up against Musharraf he was a hero who stood for the truth, a man who was correct in his approach.

Now that CJ is up against the PPP his critique of the judiciary is tainted.

And Wazeeri just nailed it. Brilliant work!!

Like I said zeenix, you are biased. Waz just proved it here (even though he stopped short of saying it)

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 01:15

And, since the point of PM Gilani's involvement in this was raised, here is an article:

http://thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=20609

Friday, February 27, 2009

By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD: As the high political drama in the power corridors of Islamabad continues to unfold at a fast pace, it has been revealed that Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani was ignored in the decision-making process at the Presidency and Asif Ali Zardari took the decision to impose governor’s rule in the Punjab much before meeting his handpicked prime minister, who after finding no way out, quietly decided to fall in line instead of defiance.

The only laughable achievement of PM Gilani was that he successfully “convinced” President Zardari that he should not appoint Kamran Lashari as the new chief secretary Punjab, who otherwise was given clearance for this new assignment in the Punjab.

Gilani was said to be very happy with this single “achievement” as he was taking credit that he had made a determined president change his decision - an extraordinary milestone for many who know that Mr Zardari was not in the habit of changing his decisions.

Earlier, Gilani was said to be only informed about the sweeping decision to impose governor’s rule in the Punjab without allowing him to give a long lecture to the president on the importance of allowing the PML-N to bring a chief minister of their choice in line with the democratic traditions.

But he was told at the presidency that the Sharif brothers were not disqualified to allow them to bring someone else, and this was a God-sent opportunity to capture the Punjab with the power of the police and District Coordination Officers at the district level, who would now be assigned to make the MPs of the assembly fall in line or face the stick with Governor Salman Taseer closely monitoring the operation.

Meanwhile, some inside sources have confirmed that top political leaders of the opposition parties might also be arrested in a major crackdown in a bid to bring the violence under control, which was fast spreading in the Punjab. One source also claimed that some prominent journalists and media groups also might face strict action along with the opposition politicians. But this could not be confirmed from independent sources.

Some sources still insist that some journalists and a major newspaper group might be targeted in a bid to maneuver the political situation in line with the wishes of a few powerful people sitting in Islamabad whose drastic actions had already destabilised the whole political system of the country.

Meanwhile, sources said, PM Gilani was in a meeting at the Ministry of Commerce when he received the shocking news that the Supreme Court had struck against the Sharif brothers and both were disqualified from holding any public office. A genuinely worried Gilani left the meeting to reach Prime Minister House. He picked up the telephone and directly talked to Shahbaz Sharif to assure him that he was not the part of the game plan, which was hatched in Islamabad to get rid of both the brothers. PM Gilani is even said to have told Shahbaz that he would not change the chief secretary of the Punjab. Insiders claimed that before meeting President Zardari, PM Gilani was under the strong impression that the PPP would not go to an extent of not giving democratic right to PML-N to bring a new chief minister in the province.

Gilani thought that by allowing PML-N to bring a new face in the Punjab as chief executive instead of Shahbaz Sharif would not lead to any major problem between the two parties, as they could work out other differences later and how to strike any compromise between the two warring political forces.

But for PM Gilani the most important challenge was to let PML-N form a new government, as he believed that it would send a positive message to the political forces and public and even the media. The sources said Gilani was so confident when someone whispered in his ears that Governor Salman Taseer was planning to impose Governor rule in the Punjab, he could not believe it and went into a state of denial. As the time to meet president kept on drawing near, Gilani kept himself busy with the thoughts that Mr Zardari would not take any drastic actions unless he met him in the evening.

But Gilani did not know that before meeting him in the Presidency, Mr Zardari had already started a meeting with some of the powerful ministers of his cabinet without inviting him and they all had taken a decision to topple PML-N government. The sources said PM Gilani kept on reminding himself the “points” and “notes” which he had planned to raise before President Zardari to make him respect the mandate of PML-N.

But when he reached the Presidency in the evening, he was surprised to know that all the important decisions had been taken and his sermon on respecting the mandate of PML-N was no more required at all.

Sources said a straight-faced Gilani and a firm Zardari met alone but soon they were joined by ministers like Rehman Malik, Farooq Naek and a few others and the meeting went on very late.

The sources said this was actually the idea of President Zardari himself that Gilani should be made part of the whole game plan so as he could not go outside the Presidency and at some later stage could not claim that he was innocent and had nothing to do with the decision of his president to impose emergency in the Punjab.

That was why one meaningful line was added in the press note issued from the Presidency that the president was advised by the prime minister to impose Governor’s rule and the president had only acted on his advice. This single line was added to ensure that Gilani could not exploit the situation on one hand and message to the people, political forces and the media should go that PPP leaders were in full consensus on the issue of imposition of Governor rule in the Punjab.

Zardari did not let Gilani find any excuse to distance himself from this crucial decision, which had to seal the fate of the Shahbaz government. The sources said the calculations of the presidency turned out to be so prophetic that within twelve hours of this decision PM Gilani summoned the media men at the Health Ministry on Thursday where he religiously defended the controversial decision of his president.

But, like a smart politician, Gilani did not forget to tell the media with a serious look on his face that the decision to disqualify the Sharifs had weakened democracy, thus indirectly sending a loud message to those who had struck against Sharif brothers that this controversial move could backfire.

However, insiders claimed that there was no doubt that Gilani had badly failed to stop a determined Zardari from drawing battle lines with his political opponents without caring for a moment about the possible implications of these dangerous moves and games being played in Islamabad.

The sources said Gilani was still hopeful that his personal position would be clearly understood by the political forces, media and civil society, as he had played his cards smartly. First, he quickly contacted Shahbaz Sharif on phone that he was not part of those decisions, which were being taken against them and this single call softened the tone of Sharif brothers against him as no one tried to blame him. Even Nawaz did not target him in his speech directed against Zardari in Sheikhupura.

But at the same time, Gilani also religiously acted on the instructions of President Zardari who made him fall in line at such a crucial moment when any defiance from his side might have made it difficult for him to go for such an extreme step. The sources said once Gilani reached Presidency and came to know what had been done in his absence and only his rubber stamp was required to issue a press release, then he volunteered his services in the proceedings at Presidency instead of showing any sign of discomfort, which many might have feared at the Presidency and expected in the political circles.

The sources said Gilani was still the favourite of the political forces as they were under the impression that he should stay there in the power corridors instead of walking out of the prime minister house, as any dramatic development might spring surprises in the days to come and a man like him should be there to come forward and manage the otherwise volatile political situation.

Some insiders believed that this was only the beginning of a much bigger plan, which may unfold vividly when Nawaz Sharif marches on Islamabad at the head of a long march in the name of the restoration of the judiciary.

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 03:33

Wazeeri:

I said, No wonder Nawaz Sharif supports him and not the other way around. One point of concern is that he was non-political and quite admirably so, during his suspension in Mush time, and he should remain so, sticking to his task. Such statements like "Masses have rejected the decision" doesn't do good to his non-political stance. I hope that this was just a slip of the tongue and it doesn't happen again.

Let me clarify a few things. I still support Chaudry whole-heartedly, and the lawyer movement. I am all for re-instatement of the Iftikhar Chaudry. I am also for the removal of all the acts that Mush took, and also for trying Mush under Article 6, and punished accordingly (The punishment is Execution by the way). He should also be tried for his corruption and civilian casualties.

And JFR, PPP Govt should have restored CJ, its a shame that they haven't yet done it and it was also the promise of BB to the nation. True sentiments of the agencies against the CJ weren't too cordial but that could have been negotiated if there was some commitment. Rather then that, they allowed this rumpus to carry on.

IMO the biggest blot on this govt sheet are,

1) Non-restoration of Iftikhaar Chaudry.
2) Musharaf being let scott-free.
3) Its partnership with MQM and the continuation of the Ishrat ul Ibad (hopefully he'll be gone in a few months).

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 03:38

You said the govt was the defendant. First of all, this doesnt prove jack. I dont think I need to tel you that the fact the govt is the defendant doesnt mean anything. I dont think I need to tell you how the govt clears some people who the govt itself is prosecuting, by telling the govt lawyers to "go easy."

Sharif brother's weren't even defending their cases. It was the govt who appealed against the Decision of Lahore High Court. Do you really think, that after the perpetual scathing attack that Nawaz Sharif launched against the current judiciary, they would be needing reasons to disqualify him.

I cant say anything about the military, or agencies, but the courts are under zardari. You can refuse to accept it, but this decision is zardari's decision. DO you mean to tel me that courts are independent?

NO. What i am trying to tell you that the current judiciary has more then enough reasons to teach Sharif a lesson, for his attacks on the current judiciary. He can be tried for Contempt of Court. He has forgotten that the current Judiciary also comprises of those people, who had declined to take oath under the PCO. Back then they were chaste. Now when they have taken oath under the Constitution of Pakistan and not under Some Fraudia and self-appointed guardian of Pakistan, they are not kosher. Think Objectively. Isn't it a dangerous trend. To be critical of judiciary or of a few judges is one thing, rejecting them in public is just pure rubbish. Is it befitting of a leader to lead his people into thinking that they can walk-over the judiciary as they will.

And no Like I said zeenix, you are biased. Waz just proved it here (even though he stopped short of saying it)

I feel that you are biased in assuming that i am biased :D

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 03:47

Why is ex CJ speaking in favor of Sharifs when he is truly impartial as people say?

He said, The Masses have Rejected the decision. Period. Sometimes the occasion takes over you. He has been impartial during the whole compaign.

Momo

27th February 2009, 03:57

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 04:07

Sharif brother's weren't even defending their cases. It was the govt who appealed against the Decision of Lahore High Court. Do you really think, that after the perpetual scathing attack that Nawaz Sharif launched against the current judiciary, they would be needing reasons to disqualify him.

All part of the plan, the govt was giving them a chance to fall in line. They didnt, and the axe fell on them

NO. What i am trying to tell you that the current judiciary has more then enough reasons to teach Sharif a lesson, for his attacks on the current judiciary. He can be tried for Contempt of Court. He has forgotten that the current Judiciary also comprises of those people, who had declined to take oath under the PCO. Back then they were chaste. Now when they have taken oath under the Constitution of Pakistan and not under Some Fraudia and self-appointed guardian of Pakistan, they are not kosher. Think Objectively. Isn't it a dangerous trend. To be critical of judiciary or of a few judges is one thing, rejecting them in public is just pure rubbish. Is it befitting of a leader to lead his people into thinking that they can walk-over the judiciary as they will.

This dangerous trend is necessary to fix the already existing dangerous trend of cleansing the judiciary of unwanted judges. In fact, during the long March, Dogar should be dragged out of the SC building, stripped naked in public and spanked. And then, he should be sent home for treatment, since his daughter is in medical college after getting good marks totally fairly.

Also, you forget that even those judges that have been restored have NOT TAKEN PATH under the pure 73 constitution.

The NRO, the presidential powers, all are there, all the malignant provisions and laws exist. So, the judges have taken oath under this BS of a document.

Hence, the restoration of any judge does not mean jack.

I feel that you are biased in assuming that i am biased :D

I cant think of a come back to this. When I do, I am coming for you again :D

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 04:11

Zeenix

I agree that Justice Iftikhar has unfortunately been politicized heavily during the course of his struggle. And it was bound to happen. For some parties (read Nawaz Sharif) that jumped on the band-wagon later, this issue was nothing but a political wrestling match and an easy way to make a come-back.

A pity because it all started with a very defiant stand that Justice Iftikhar took alone, and later strengthened by some (not all mind you) very selfless and dedicated lawyers. And nobody can take that away from the Chief Justice. He was one of the principal reasons for Musharraf's downfall, which is not a small thing.

Yes, Zardari's chief failing has been his unwillingness to restore him. As for not punishing Musharraf, I'd say we should thank Kayani for that favour more than we should Zardari, although it is fashionable (and safe) in Pakistan to blame everything on Zardari since the year 1989 (not to say that he is an innocent baby in any way though). Pretty similar to India's attitude towards ISI.

Momo

First of all, I have never blamed zardari for letting off mush. I know the army will never let him be punished. Even though I think PPP should have done it, but well......

Secondly, you forget that even those judges that have been restored have NOT TAKEN PATH under the pure 73 constitution.

The NRO, the presidential powers, all are there, all the malignant provisions and laws exist. So, the judges have taken oath under this BS of a document.

Hence, the restoration of any judge does not mean jack. (copy paste :D )

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 04:12

waqar: Re: All part of the plan, the govt was giving them a chance to fall in line. They didnt, and the axe fell on them.

Which line.. If you believe that Zardari is such a big fan of Dogar that he'd risk so much politically then you are day-dreaming (or is it night over there) :) . If you think its the NRO, then let me tell you Iftikhaar Chaudry or no, the President can ONLY be tried by the Parliament, the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over a sitting president.

The NRO, the presidential powers, all are there, all the malignant provisions and laws exist. So, the judges have taken oath under this BS of a document.

The oath of the Supreme Court has nothing to do with this. NRO is not a part of constitution, Parliament can make any law so a Judge can't make choices of which articles to choose and which articles not to choose. Suppose if tomorrow judges decide that they aren't going to take oath under the article which says Parliament is supreme...

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 04:15

Momo

27th February 2009, 04:24

Momo

First of all, I have never blamed zardari for letting off mush. I know the army will never let him be punished. Even though I think PPP should have done it, but well......
I didn't mean you blamed Zardari for that.

I know what you are talking about. I too wanted Mush to be executed in front of the Army House, but you know that's not possible in our country. But still it's a disappointment.

Secondly, you forget that even those judges that have been restored have NOT TAKEN OATH under the pure 73 constitution.

The NRO, the presidential powers, all are there, all the malignant provisions and laws exist. So, the judges have taken oath under this BS of a document.

Hence, the restoration of any judge does not mean jack.
That's one of those ironies that are quite spectacular, yet unappreciated by most of the people. Add to this the uncomfortable fact that Justice Iftikhar was also one of the 'bad' guys who legitimized Musharraf before doing a Becket on Musharraf, and another uncomfortable fact that Nawaz Sharif who unleashed goons like Akhtar Rasool and Tariq Aziz on the Supreme Court not too long ago is now the champion of this judiciary supremacy cause.

The uncomfortable truth is that this is no holy war with one side fighting for the truth and the other side comprising of sons of the devil. Instead, it's a complex power struggle, with many groups of participants on both sides fighting for different ultimate goals.

Justice sahab's initial defiance may have been altruistic but now it's just a dirty war of egos, revenge, anger, supremacy and power. It should be seen as one.

Having said that, Zardari should still have restored Iftikhar because one, he promised he would, and two, it still carried a symbolic significance. Not any more I don't think.

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 04:25

Zeenix

Its night here, and I dont know why I dont want to sleep. SO no day dreaming :)

Zardari, and most of the PPP leadership including Rehman Malik, Naek could not even hold a public position if they were not dry cleaned by the NRO.

Once again, watch the capital talk link I pointed you too. The PPP lady in there said the exact same thing you are saying. And the lawyer proved her wrong.

Between what about MQM, around 2000 Cases against them were withdrawn. It turns out to be biggest beneficiary without any noise being raised against them. Its all NRO and Zardari, the national song now.

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 04:29

I didn't mean you blamed Zardari for that.

I know what you are talking about. I too wanted Mush to be executed in front of the Army House, but you know that's not possible in our country. But still it's a disappointment.

That's one of those ironies that are quite spectacular, yet unappreciated by most of the people. Add to this the uncomfortable fact that Justice Iftikhar was also one of the 'bad' guys who legitimized Musharraf before doing a Becket on Musharraf, and another uncomfortable fact that Nawaz Sharif who unleashed goons like Akhtar Rasool and Tariq Aziz on the Supreme Court not too long ago is now the champion of this judiciary supremacy cause.

The uncomfortable truth is that this is no holy war with one side fighting for the truth and the other side comprising of sons of the devil. Instead, it's a complex power struggle, with many groups of participants on both sides fighting for different ultimate goals.

Justice sahab's initial defiance may have been altruistic but now it's just a dirty war of egos, revenge, anger, supremacy and power. It should be seen as one.

Having said that, Zardari should still have restored Iftikhar because one, he promised he would, and two, it still carried a symbolic significance. Not any more I don't think.

The point is Momo, that this nation of ours, has a history of ditching its heroes in the end. CJ is a hero, an icon who I wil lalways respect no matter what.

And I cant see this hero being dumped. And whosoever backs him, gets my backing

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 04:30

Between what about MQM, around 2000 Cases against them were withdrawn. It turns out to be biggest beneficiary without any noise being raised against them. Its all NRO and Zardari, the national song now.
I never said NRO benefited zardari only. But it was PPP specific, to allow PPP to come topower.
Yes, other politicians got off too, but then, this country of ours has great leaders who need to be steam washed every now and then

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 04:32

and another uncomfortable fact that Nawaz Sharif who unleashed goons like Akhtar Rasool and Tariq Aziz on the Supreme Court not too long ago is now the champion of this judiciary supremacy cause.

It is the trend that i am pointing to. When N.S was in power he did that, and now when he isn't in power, he is using the same tactics against the Judiciary.

I'll repeat the point i made above, The current Judiciary comprises most of the those Judges who declined to take oath under PCO. True it includes some shabby characters, but that simply isn't a good enough reason to blast the whole of judiciary. Its a dangerous trend. If Chaudry is restored, wouldn't it be a licence for the Q-League and the MQM to blast and malign the same Judiciary in public.. Isn't this a very disrupting trend.

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 04:34

I never said NRO benefited zardari only. But it was PPP specific, to allow PPP to come topower.
Yes, other politicians got off too, but then, this country of ours has great leaders who need to be steam washed every now and then

No it wasn't PPP specific.. Compare the number of cases MQM vs PPP. You'd find the answer. And it is no secret where the dictator's heart was. His relatives are at high positions in the MQM. After being kicked out of the President house, he was seriously considering a top slot in MQM. However his ego didn't allow him to work under Altaf-Bhai.

Islamabadi

27th February 2009, 04:36

agreements are not part of quran or hadees that can't be changed........ enough said

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 04:37

Yes it was. It was a US sponsored deal, designed to allow BB and co to come back to power. Almost all the ministers are NRO products

Momo

27th February 2009, 04:41

The point is Momo, that this nation of ours, has a history of ditching its heroes in the end. CJ is a hero, an icon who I will always respect no matter what.

And I cant see this hero being dumped. And whosoever backs him, gets my backing
I respect this sentiment. It's the sign of a good heart.

But take this advice from a senior who has gone through these phases himself: Don't revere people; instead revere their certain actions.

The action you are talking about was heroic indeed. I am with you on that one. Let's imitate that action when we are in a similar situation next, Inshaallah. But Justice sahab also had a past before that; and a 'future' after that. His heroic action in 2007 doesn't make his whole life heroic.

And this applies to all personalities with the possible exception of Prophets. Even for Prophets I would recommend focussing on their message and not their personalities, but that is for a different reason and is a separate sermon.

Hero worship can be a dangerous and heart-breaking thing.

P.S. As for backing him, by all means do that if you are satisfied. But don't back anybody who backs him. That's because some people are backing him for very short term personal gains, and will be the first to dump him when/if they succeed.

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 04:51

I respect this sentiment. It's the sign of a good heart.

But take this advice from a senior who has gone through these phases himself: Don't revere people; instead revere their certain actions.

The action you are talking about was heroic indeed. I am with you on that one. Let's imitate that action when we are in a similar situation next, Inshaallah. But Justice sahab also had a past before that; and a 'future' after that. His heroic action in 2007 doesn't make his whole life heroic.

And this applies to all personalities with the possible exception of Prophets. Even for Prophets I would recommend focussing on their message and not their personalities, but that is for a different reason and is a separate sermon.

Hero worship can be a dangerous and heart-breaking thing.
Understood Momo

I dont do hero worship, trust me. But I dont think CJ has done anythign wrong until now.

You know, I used to be a big mush fan early on. But look at me now. So no hero worship

Momo

27th February 2009, 04:53

You know, I used to be a big mush fan early on. But look at me now. So no hero worship
You can't go wrong with this attitude. You can of course make mistakes but you won't constantly be in error as long as you stick to this policy.

Inshaallah.

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 05:06

You can't go wrong with this attitude. You can of course make mistakes but you won't constantly be in error as long as you stick to this policy.

Inshaallah.
seeeeee...I can think even when im pissed :D

Momo

27th February 2009, 05:08

seeeeee...I can think even when im pissed :D
A commendable trait. :inzi

Zechariah

27th February 2009, 05:10

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 05:15

I have a question. We all want independent judiciary. Is it not achievable with out the ex CJ? CJ is going to retire one day so what steps are being taken to make sure our Judiciary is independent whether or not the CJ is there or not, what's being done in that manner?
Yes, it can be achieved. But dumping someone like the CJ is not a good thing to do. Like I said, we dump our heroes. IT does not set a good example, not a healthy trait for a nation

Momo

27th February 2009, 05:20

I have a question. We all want independent judiciary. Is it not achievable with out the ex CJ? CJ is going to retire one day so what steps are being taken to make sure our Judiciary is independent whether or not the CJ is there or not, what's being done in that manner?
Good question. I don't think anything is being done in that regard.

One key requirement for that is to make sure Army doesn't take over ever again. A lot of progress could have been made if Musharraf was severely punished, but sadly that was not done.

Islamabadi

27th February 2009, 05:22

notification issued for 16 more lahore high court judges...What the hell is PPP doing..making life miserable for people of punjab won't help them

Sheikh

27th February 2009, 06:01

Waiting for the inevitable Gilani resignation...

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 08:01

And this applies to all personalities with the possible exception of Prophets. Even for Prophets I would recommend focussing on their message and not their personalities, but that is for a different reason and is a separate sermon.

I disagree..

Momo

27th February 2009, 09:19

I disagree..
Not because of the same reason as for say Justice Chaudhry. No, no, no, no, no. That's why I specifically said 'for a different reason'.

The danger in hero-worshipping even a Prophet is this. Very often what happens as a result of an over zealous love is that the messenger becomes important and the message that he brought goes to the back burner.

In other words, after some time it becomes a religion about the messenger rather than the religion of the messenger.

Look at christianity - for the most part at any rate (although there are of course people who don't fit what I am going to describe). Look at how they revere Isa (alaihe salam). But they don't do what he told them to do (which is in their scriptures). It's all about the personality of the messenger and his miracles and episodes of his life (some of which aren't even true) rather than the message that he brought.

You will see many such examples in other religions as well. And I dare say in islam too, where you will surely notice many people who (with the best of intentions no doubt) would focus completely on our beloved Prophet and how wonderful he was (which is an undeniable fact), but then this focus sometimes results in an atmosphere where it becomes a matter of who tells the most beautiful story about the Prophet and who says subhanallah in the loudest voice instead of focussing on the message of the Prophet (Qur'an). The focus shifts somewhere along the line and that is tragic indeed. Due to this attitude we have been reduced to a bunch of storytellers and storylisteners who love our Prophet very sincerely but seldom do what he came here to tell us to do (which is inside the Qur'an).

Consider this. Every muslim knows what our beloved Prophet's standard answer to people demanding miracles was - read Qur'an, that is my miracle. Now each one of us Alhamdulillah loves the Prophet and praises him whenever we even think of him (and that's a good thing), but how many try to understand what's written in the book that was held in such a high regard by our master? No wonder our knowledge of our deen is a mixture of Qur'anic teachings, tales about the Prophet (some of them false), stories carried over from Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and what not.

That's what happens when the focus shifts from the message to the messenger. That it happens mostly with the best of intentions, I have no doubt about. But the road to hell is full of good intentions.

And Allah knows best.

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 09:49

Not because of the same reason as for say Justice Chaudhry. No, no, no, no, no. That's why I specifically said 'for a different reason'.

The danger in hero-worshipping even a Prophet is this. Very often what happens as a result of an over zealous love is that the messenger becomes important and the message that he brought goes to the back burner.

In other words, after some time it becomes a religion about the messenger rather than the religion of the messenger.

Look at christianity - for the most part at any rate (although there are of course people who don't fit what I am going to describe). Look at how they revere Isa (alaihe salam). But they don't do what he told them to do (which is in their scriptures). It's all about the personality of the messenger and his miracles and episodes of his life (some of which aren't even true) rather than the message that he brought.

You will see many such examples in other religions as well. And I dare say in islam too, where you will surely notice many people who (with the best of intentions no doubt) would focus completely on our beloved Prophet and how wonderful he was (which is an undeniable fact), but then this focus sometimes results in an atmosphere where it becomes a matter of who tells the most beautiful story about the Prophet and who says subhanallah in the loudest voice instead of focussing on the message of the Prophet (Qur'an). The focus shifts somewhere along the line and that is tragic indeed. Due to this attitude we have been reduced to a bunch of storytellers and storylisteners who love our Prophet very sincerely but seldom do what he came here to tell us to do (which is inside the Qur'an).

Consider this. Every muslim knows what our beloved Prophet's standard answer to people demanding miracles was - read Qur'an, that is my miracle. Now each one of us Alhamdulillah loves the Prophet and praises him whenever we even think of him (and that's a good thing), but how many try to understand what's written in the book that was held in such a high regard by our master? No wonder our knowledge of our deen is a mixture of Qur'anic teachings, tales about the Prophet (some of them false), stories carried over from Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and what not.

That's what happens when the focus shifts from the message to the messenger. That it happens mostly with the best of intentions, I have no doubt about. But the road to hell is full of good intentions.

And Allah knows best.

Its because when any religious practice turns into a ritual, and religion turns into a tradition, the above mentioned issue arises. It has nothing to do with the Messenger. The message of a messenger is part of his personality and that can't be separated from him. After all Allah's word is what the Prophet said, we only have the Prophets word for it.

Truth is that Allah send Humans as messengers in this world so that their personalities can be a role-model for humanity to follow.

Teachings form part of personality, and we are bound by the religion to follow the footsteps of our Prophets. Following the Prophet's (SAW) Aswa e Husna is a binding degree.

Prophet (SAW) is the most perfect human being, and hence trying to follow his footsteps, his personality would never lead us astray.

Yes some people do blur the distinction between Right and Wrong, but its their lack of knowledge, which offcourse is their own short-coming and nothing to do with the Messenger.

And yes Following a personality != Worship.

Anyways. i do understand what you are trying to point out. We'll leave this topic to another thread.

Momo

27th February 2009, 10:02

Its because when any religious practice turns into a ritual, and religion turns into a tradition, the above mentioned issue arises. It has nothing to do with the Messenger. The message of a messenger is part of his personality and that can't be separated from him. After all Allah's word is what the Prophet said, we only have the Prophets word for it.

Truth is that Allah send Humans as messengers in this world so that their personalities can be a role-model for humanity to follow.

Teachings form part of personality, and we are bound by the religion to follow the footsteps of our Prophets. Following the Prophet's (SAW) Aswa e Husna is a binding degree.

Prophet (SAW) is the most perfect human being, and hence trying to follow his footsteps, his personality would never lead us astray.

Yes some people do blur the distinction between Right and Wrong, but its their lack of knowledge, which offcourse is their own short-coming and nothing to do with the Messenger.

And yes Following a personality != Worship.

Anyways. i do understand what you are trying to point out. We'll leave this topic to another thread.
I understand (and agree) with your point too. Just was trying to emphasize the importance of understanding Qur'an, not very articulately admittedly. For the record, I am not a munkar-e-hadees kind of an individual :) . And realize that this book was not given to us in a bound form placed on top of a mountain for a very good reason.

But yes, this doesn't belong in this thread.

By the way, nice signature. :))

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 10:15

Yes it was. It was a US sponsored deal, designed to allow BB and co to come back to power. Almost all the ministers are NRO products

If the Facts don't conform to the theory, Discard them..

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 18:06

If the Facts don't conform to the theory, Discard them..
But they do. BB was sallowed back, NS was not even though the courts allowed him to come back. PPP leadership had cases agianst them, whic were cleared. t's quite obvious. MQM is jsut another beneficiary.

Zardari just wants punjab, period. He had no other way to do it, specially before the long march which will make him wet his pants.

What's the logic behind governer rule anyway. SS suspended, invite PML-N to elect a new CM. They have the majority. PPP is trying its level best not let PML-N come into power again, coz this time, it will be punjab govt minus PPP.

On a sidenote, zardari wants NS to come and have a dialog with him. How thoughtful of the great president. Showing that it is in fact, under his control to resolve the mess he himself created

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 18:40

But they do. BB was sallowed back, NS was not even though the courts allowed him to come back. PPP leadership had cases agianst them, whic were cleared. t's quite obvious. MQM is jsut another beneficiary.

Zardari just wants punjab, period. He had no other way to do it, specially before the long march which will make him wet his pants.

What's the logic behind governer rule anyway. SS suspended, invite PML-N to elect a new CM. They have the majority. PPP is trying its level best not let PML-N come into power again, coz this time, it will be punjab govt minus PPP.

On a sidenote, zardari wants NS to come and have a dialog with him. How thoughtful of the great president. Showing that it is in fact, under his control to resolve the mess he himself created

Its not the bullet that kills you, its the hole...

Between i guess its my turn now to be awake. :)

Mohsin

27th February 2009, 18:45

Friday, February 27, 2009
By our correspondent

LAHORE: The ouster of Mian Shahbaz Sharif as chief minister Punjab has also ended his Sasti Roti scheme from the provincial capital since only in one day the price jumped to Rs 4 per Roti across the city.

Mian Shahbaz Sharif had launched the Sasti Roti scheme some months back under which the City District Government Lahore (CDGL) was providing subsidised flour to Tandoors in various parts of the city for selling a Roti at Rs 2. However, his disqualification as chief minister Punjab has finally deprived the masses, especially the poor, of this facility.

Residents of different city localities, while talking to The News, claimed that most of the Tandoors in their localities had increased the price of Roti to Rs 4 soon after the Supreme Court of Pakistan (SCP) announced the disqualification of the Sharif brothers on February 25, 2009.

They said many Tandoors, selling Sasti Roti, removed the banners regarding the availability of Sasti Roti.

Great

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 18:46

Its not the bullet that kills you, its the hole...

Between i guess its my turn now to be awake. :)
im guessing you are off tomorrow, right? So you can stay up all you want, and be the humanoid I was last night :)

Zeenix

27th February 2009, 18:52

im guessing you are off tomorrow, right? So you can stay up all you want, and be the humanoid I was last night :)

Array nahi, we don't have Saturdays off here.

Sometimes when you can't sleep you Kind of feel that it was a pity Noah didn't miss the boat.

waqar_ahmad

27th February 2009, 19:29

Array nahi, we don't have Saturdays off here.

Sometimes when you can't sleep you Kind of feel that it was a pity Noah didn't miss the boat.
O yeah, I forgot that. Work on saturdays. Well, at least I know what you are going to be doing at work tomorrow. Just, dont snore too loud

12thMan

28th February 2009, 20:35

It cannot be good to hear Nawaz Shariff telling officers, authorities and police in Punjab to not interfere in protests at all and they will be compensated and awarded later (first 2 min of link)
http://www.pakistanherald.com/prog_show.asp?prog_id=683

Islamabadi

28th February 2009, 20:39

F NAWAZ, F Zardari, F MOulanas and Qazi, F ALTAF, Imran khan zindabad

12thMan

1st March 2009, 22:15

Nawaz Shariff in Jawab Deh show
http://www.pakistanherald.com/prog_show.asp?prog_id=694

waqar_ahmad

2nd March 2009, 02:43

PPP jiyalas in London protested against zardari. I didnt know some jiyalas could actually think

Wazeeri

2nd March 2009, 17:23

Iftikhar Ahmed gets right to the point, I love that about him.

What i took from this interview was
1) Nawaz is going to become even more popular
2) Nawaz wants their to be some blood on the street (he always stopped shy of declaring that no aggressive protests will be acceptable)
3) Nawaz doesn't have a clue at answering any technical question.
4) He is out for revenge against Zardari.

I think zardari has pushed his luck too far.

12thMan

2nd March 2009, 18:22

Iftikhar Ahmed gets right to the pointIf he is the Jawab Deh host then you should also watch the Imran Khan one. It was done about a month ago. One of Imran's better interview

Waseem

5th March 2009, 10:33

A huge setback for Sharifs as 27 PML-N members create a forward block. They spoke against Nawaz Sharif on press confrence and joining hands with PPP to form government.

What's left for Sharif brothers now??
Zardari is surely proving to be a STRONG politician ( 3rd class person though).
I can see Kayani taking over soon or is he giving his full backing to Zardari???
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/updates.asp?id=70544

asifp

5th March 2009, 10:58

Waseem

5th March 2009, 11:07

Laila Muqaddas is head of this forward block, Ahsan Iqbal of PML-N called them "Ganday Anday" who SOLD themselves for money. Blasted Zardari for distributing money rather than protecting Sri Lankan cricketers.

Qasim Zia of PPP played big role in all this, Ahsan said that Zardari begged PML-N to let people like Qasim Zia win(by withdrawing their candidates) the elections and this is what we get in return.

the Great Khan

5th March 2009, 12:22

asifp

5th March 2009, 12:23

suhaib

5th March 2009, 13:17

nawaz is a dumbo, hes a weak politician and an even weaker leader, hes stuborn and thats what kills him, poke him and he will not leave you till he dies, he would probably kill N league very soon, he is very lucky to be back because of his judicary drama otherwise he would be unknown today, someone from his party must stand up and take over before it finishes.

zadari is a fool and has an iq of probably 1, but when he competes with ganja he surly looks smart as anyone would, he has only taken advantage of ganjas weakness which has given him more power but made him extremly unpopular.

musharraf was probably the only smart leader to have lead pakistan, and right now hes in a win-win situation, his resignation and holding of elections has put him in a great position and if he wants to return and enter politics, which he should as the country desperatly needs him, he will be in a top position by the next elections.,had he not resigned he would have been as unpopular as zadari and would have got squashed in this ganja gadari feud.

waqar_ahmad

5th March 2009, 13:54

Nawaz is a fool..and a rubbish politician...Zardari is just too clever for him..He's stabbed him in the back at every turn and nawaz is finished..what will dead pakistanis on the streets achieve now other than martial law? the PML-N are finished and need to reunite with the Q or face oblivion!..the public is all forgiving!!
Read this:

http://thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=20744

MPAs are being bought at 50 million a piece.

The govt is buying politicians. How does that make PML-N foolish?

What zardari is doing is not clever. Its a known tactic, buying politicians has been there for ages.

This was the whole purpose of governor rule. Give enough time to get MPAs to change loyalties so that PPP can form its own govt.

As for the long march, I am waiting for it. I want people to come out. I am sorry, but if you believe people should not protest just coz army will take over, then thats just messed up.

And for the record, I dont think army will take over no matter what

suhaib

5th March 2009, 14:12

gen. kayanni is in a high level meeting with the corps on the political crisis today, lets see what comes out.

asifp

5th March 2009, 14:53

Nawaz I heard is just the leader cause he is the elder brother.

Everyone who has interacted with the Sharif's belive Shabaz is way smarter and should be the leader

Islamabadi

5th March 2009, 17:38

sharif is a dumb ass... Time for all leaguers to quit muslim league and be part of tehrek e- insaf

waqar_ahmad

5th March 2009, 19:58

SO, Laila Muqaddas, the one leading the forward block, went for 50 million. I am wondering if I had that much money, can I.....well lets leave it at that.

By the way, what a name, what an irony. THe question remains whether this beghairat PPP can form govt in punjab, even with the help of the 27 worthless @ssholes