The End Begins...Taliban making inroads to Punjab

[sharuk]

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\04\15\story_15-4-2009_pg1_11


first swat, soon punjab....


LAHORE: The Taliban are teaming up with local militant groups to make inroads in the Punjab, a New York Times report has claimed.

The report quoted Pakistani experts as saying the Manawan siege, the Sri Lankan cricket team ambush, and the bombing of the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad last year were only the most spectacular examples of the joint campaign. American officials said they viewed the developments with alarm.

“I don’t think a lot of people understand the gravity of the issue,” said a senior Punjab police official. “If you want to destabilise Pakistan, you have to destabilise the Punjab.” An NYT reporter claimed seeing abundant signs of creeping militancy in towns and villages around Dera Ghazi Khan. Some villages, the report said, were so deeply infiltrated by militants that they were already considered no-go zones.

In at least five towns in southern Punjab, including Multan, barbershops, music stores and Internet cafes reported threats from Taliban. “It’s going from bad to worse,” said a senior police official in DG Khan. “They are now more active. These are the facts.”

Tactical alliance: At least 20 Taliban killed in American strikes in the Tribal Areas since last summer were Punjabis, according to officials. One Pakistani security official estimated that five to 10 percent of the militants in FATA could be Punjabi. “These are tactical alliances,” said a senior American official. The Pashtun Taliban and Arab militants, who are part of Al Qaeda, have money, sanctuary, training sites and suicide bombers. The Punjabi militants can provide logistic support in cities like Lahore.

The situation is still far from that in the Swat Valley but there are strong parallels. The Taliban here exploit many of the same weaknesses that allowed them to expand in other areas: an absent or intimidated police force; a lack of attention from national and provincial leaders; and a population steadily cowed by threats, or won over by hard-line mullahs. In Shadan ****, just north of DG Khan, militants are openly demanding shariah.

Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif told the NYT reporter he was painfully aware of the need to restore people’s faith in government. “Hearts and minds must be won,” he said. “If this struggle fails, this country has no future.”

[sharuk]

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\04\15\story_15-4-2009_pg1_12

Taliban have also reached karachi

LAHORE: The Taliban are covertly operating in Karachi and extorting millions of rupees in ‘donations’ from Mehsud and Wazir tribesmen living in the city, a private TV channel reported on Tuesday. The tribesmen told the channel that a few months ago a Taliban representative had collected more than Rs 2 million in just a few days. The channel said while some of the donors are said to be Taliban sympathisers, others pay them out of fear. daily times monitor

[insaftak]

talibans have also reach mars, moon and pluto, total paranoia here

[Cheguvera]

The best news in years if true...

[pakistani pride]

If true then our military really needs to STAND UP !
I mean what the ### are they doing !?

[AZ]

the doorbell just rang...has the Taliban made inroads all the way to my house? EEEEK!

[Indiafan]

well such news seems to be coming from multiple sources. Pak should be a bit more serious towards it

[Keith]

There is hardly ever smoke without fire.

I have recently watched a documentary where they (western media granted) showed that the taliban are very close indeed.

The majority of posters (pakistani nationals) on this site "appear" to be outside of pakistan hence they cannot really comment therein. Obviously I cannot comment therein either.

Can one of the mods members not perhaps contact somebody in these affected areas and get the actual truth? I, for 1, would really appreciate that!! Then maybe we can put this issue to bed.

With regards to any "supporters" of the taliban i would like to know why they support them?

As far as i am aware (thanx again to western media) the taliban are a bunch of religious fanatical criminals that oppose anybody that dares to have different viewpoints to theirs and "govern" people by fear tactics, murder etc and treat women like animals, no education etc.

I would love to know "the truth".

[Muddaser]

There is hardly ever smoke without fire.

I have recently watched a documentary where they (western media granted) showed that the taliban are very close indeed.

The majority of posters (pakistani nationals) on this site "appear" to be outside of pakistan hence they cannot really comment therein. Obviously I cannot comment therein either.

Can one of the mods members not perhaps contact somebody in these affected areas and get the actual truth? I, for 1, would really appreciate that!! Then maybe we can put this issue to bed.

With regards to any "supporters" of the taliban i would like to know why they support them?

As far as i am aware (thanx again to western media) the taliban are a bunch of religious fanatical criminals that oppose anybody that dares to have different viewpoints to theirs and "govern" people by fear tactics, murder etc and treat women like animals, no education etc.

I would love to know "the truth".

Keith and oter non Pakistanis,

What you need to understand is, Extrremism and terrorism aint exclusive to the NWFP and tribal areas. We have extremist right wing groups/terrorists in every corner of Pakistan. Difference is, The tribal areas including Swat is 3 million in strength and the Punjab is 80 million.

So all this talk of Inroads being made is rubbish.

[Keith]

Keith and oter non Pakistanis,

What you need to understand is, Extrremism and terrorism aint exclusive to the NWFP and tribal areas. We have extremist right wing groups/terrorists in every corner of Pakistan. Difference is, The tribal areas including Swat is 3 million in strength and the Punjab is 80 million.

So all this talk of Inroads being made is rubbish.

Are the tribal areas not part of pakistan, the country? Are the 3 million pakistani's then just left out on their own and at the mercy of any group? Is it not any governments responsibility to look after all its citizens and not just a select group?

[Muddaser]

Are the tribal areas not part of pakistan, the country? Are the 3 million pakistani's then just left out on their own and at the mercy of any group? Is it not any governments responsibility to look after all its citizens and not just a select group?

The Taliban have always enjoyed support in the tribals areas. I'm pretty sure If you ask the average Tribal Pakistani, he would prefer the Taliban there and doesnt want the US or even Pakistani army meddling in its business.

[Indiafan]

Keith and oter non Pakistanis,

What you need to understand is, Extrremism and terrorism aint exclusive to the NWFP and tribal areas. We have extremist right wing groups/terrorists in every corner of Pakistan. Difference is, The tribal areas including Swat is 3 million in strength and the Punjab is 80 million.

So all this talk of Inroads being made is rubbish.

But this is the first time i have seen Pak goverment make a deal with them and concede territory

This is what Obama's aid predicts

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/pak-in-danger-of-collapse-within-months-obama-aide/90206-2.html

Pak in danger of collapse within months: Obama aide

[Keith]

The Taliban have always enjoyed support in the tribals areas. I'm pretty sure If you ask the average Tribal Pakistani, he would prefer the Taliban there and doesnt want the US or even Pakistani army meddling in its business.

Then why not just "create another country" for these dudes in that area. Then pakistan will be left for pakistani's and any incursion by these taliban into pakistan can be treated as an invasion and dealt with accordingly.

I know this is very simplistically put and cannot really happen (?) but i am pretty sure you understand where I am coming from.

[Muddaser]

But this is the first time i have seen Pak goverment make a deal with them and concede territory

This is what Obama's aid predicts

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/pak-in-danger-of-collapse-within-months-obama-aide/90206-2.html

Pak in danger of collapse within months: Obama aide

Swat has been a problem since 1947. A princely state under Sharia law during the British area, Joined Pakistan in 1947 then abolished in 1969 and put under British law. :13:

What you're are seeing today aint new, it happened in 1994 and 1999 too only to be crushed. Finally our government understands that without popular support the Taliban wouldnt be thriving there.

[Garuda]

What was the reason, these tribal areas were not like other areas (e.g punjab or other parts of Pakistan) at the first place?

What is stopping the pakistan Govt and tribal citizen to follow same rule as rest of the country. Anyway the tribals also feel they are part of Pakistan.

[AZ]

well such news seems to be coming from multiple sources. Pak should be a bit more serious towards it

our army is waging a war with these terrorists...how much more serious do you want it to be? but the depiction that the Taliban is all over Pakistan is ridiculous

[Keith]

What was the reason, these tribal areas were not like other areas (e.g punjab or other parts of Pakistan) at the first place?

What is stopping the pakistan Govt and tribal citizen to follow same rule as rest of the country. Anyway the tribals also feel they are part of Pakistan.

An excellent question. It appears as thought he pakistani govt. has given in to the demands of a minority in their country. They were held to ransom and decided to give in

If the tribal areas want the taliban, it is their right afterall, then give them the taliban and let them form their own "country." If the taliban then move into Pakistan the army can deal with it as an invasion.

That way everybody gets what they want:

Taliban get "their people"
The tribals "get their taliban"
Pakistan govt. gets to look after the people of pakistan that mean something to them.

:13:

[Garuda]

An excellent question. It appears as thought he pakistani govt. has given in to the demands of a minority in their country. They were held to ransom and decided to give in

If the tribal areas want the taliban, it is their right afterall, then give them the taliban and let them form their own "country." If the taliban then move into Pakistan the army can deal with it as an invasion.

That way everybody gets what they want:

Taliban get "their people"
The tribals "get their taliban"
Pakistan govt. gets to look after the people of pakistan that mean something to them.

:13:
Correct.

But one feeling which comes from PPer (pakistanis) that the tribals still want to be a part of Pakistan. But they want Taliban rule.

I was trying to find out why was this set up allowed at the first place ?( i mean when Pakistan was formed). Cuz somewhere I read that these tribal areas had Islamic law before too where as other parts of the country had Pakistan civil law. Am I correct?

[Keith]

Correct.

But one feeling which comes from PPer (pakistanis) that the tribals still want to be a part of Pakistan. But they want Taliban rule.

I was trying to find out why was this set up allowed at the first place ?( i mean when Pakistan was formed). Cuz somewhere I read that these tribal areas had Islamic law before too where as other parts of the country had Pakistan civil law. Am I correct?

Dunno about you being correct but i am pretty sure that you will get an asnwer from someone here regarding that issue. There certainly are quite a few intelligent posters with immeasurable knowledge of pakistan's history!!

I just do not think that a country can survive with more than 1 form of government at the helm. :13:

[Muddaser]

Correct.

But one feeling which comes from PPer (pakistanis) that the tribals still want to be a part of Pakistan. But they want Taliban rule.

I was trying to find out why was this set up allowed at the first place ?( i mean when Pakistan was formed). Cuz somewhere I read that these tribal areas had Islamic law before too where as other parts of the country had Pakistan civil law. Am I correct?

Not Taliban but Islamic rule.

Which is why the Taliban are still thriving in the tribal areas. Americans bombing the region is only making matters worse.

Swat has had insurgent groups before the Taliban demanding Sharia law

Its been a problem since 1947. A princely state under Sharia law during the British area, Joined Pakistan in 1947 then abolished in 1969 and put under British law.

[Muddaser]

Dunno about you being correct but i am pretty sure that you will get an asnwer from someone here regarding that issue. There certainly are quite a few intelligent posters with immeasurable knowledge of pakistan's history!!

I just do not think that a country can survive with more than 1 form of government at the helm. :13:

Pretty sure USA was more than one law running it. Malaysia has Sharia and Secular law running it.

[Keith]

Pretty sure USA was more than one law running it. Malaysia has Sharia and Secular law running it.

In SA we have provinicial governments that govern the different provinces (11) but we have a central government that these provinicial governments report to. I think the usa is similar?

Malaysia is interesting. What if 2 laws totally contradict themselves, which 1 will prevail?

What is sharia law and what is secular law?

[Muddaser]

In SA we have provinicial governments that govern the different provinces (11) but we have a central government that these provinicial governments report to. I think the usa is similar?

Malaysia is interesting. What if 2 laws totally contradict themselves, which 1 will prevail?

What is sharia law and what is secular law?

Same for Pakistan. Its the provincial government which demanded that the region be put under Islamic rule which the federal government voting in parliament to approve it. Swat hasnt been put under taliban rule but Islamic rule. Theres a difference, The government has asked the Taliban to disarm, If not they will take action. Islamic rule will remain there irrespective of Taliban presence or not.

This deal has knocked the wind out of the Taliban simple because they cant hide behind Sharia which the local people supported them for. If they carry on their terrorism then our army will have the full backing of the locals this time around.

As for Malaysia, Sharia law is for the muslims and Secular law for the non muslims I believe.

[Keith]

Same for Pakistan. Its the provincial government which demanded that the region be put under Islamic rule which the federal government voting in parliament to approve it. Swat hasnt been put under taliban rule but Islamic rule. Theres a difference, The government has asked the Taliban to disarm, If not they will take action. Islamic rule will remain there irrespective of Taliban presence or not.

As for Malaysia, Sharia law is for the muslims and Secular law for the non muslims I believe.

Did a "bit" of research:

The dual system of law is provided in Article 121(1A) of the Constitution of Malaysia. Article 3 also provides that Islamic law is a state law matter with the exception for the Federal Territories of Malaysia.[1] Islamic law refers to the sharia law, and in Malaysia it is known and spelled as syariah. The court is known as the Syariah Court. Looking at the Malaysian legal system as a whole, sharia law plays a relatively minimal role in defining the laws on the country. First and foremost, sharia law only applies to Muslims. With regards to civil law, the Syariah courts shall have jurisdiction in personal law matters, for example, marriage, inheritance, and apostasy. In some states, there is the sharia criminal laws, for example, the Kelantan Syariah Criminal Code Enactment 1993. Their jurisdiction is however limited to imposing fines for an amount not more than RM 3000, and imprisonment to not more than 6 months.[2] In August 2007, the then Chief Justice of Malaysia proposed to replace the current common law application in Malaysia with sharia law.[3]

Look i am not pakistani nor am i situated closely to pakistan. I have however been communicating with a pakistani friend for many a year now and have developed a close affinity to pakistan. I have no problem with islamic law what i do have a problem with is the implementation of this law by the taliban. (this could stem from my "skewed" version of the taliban thanks to the western media).

Do you really think that the taliban will disarm and do you really think that if they do not actions will indeed be taken?

Let us say that they do disarm, what of the women? Will they be treated as 2nd class citizens and be denied education etc. (as witnessed in afghanistan?)

[Muddaser]

Did a "bit" of research:

The dual system of law is provided in Article 121(1A) of the Constitution of Malaysia. Article 3 also provides that Islamic law is a state law matter with the exception for the Federal Territories of Malaysia.[1] Islamic law refers to the sharia law, and in Malaysia it is known and spelled as syariah. The court is known as the Syariah Court. Looking at the Malaysian legal system as a whole, sharia law plays a relatively minimal role in defining the laws on the country. First and foremost, sharia law only applies to Muslims. With regards to civil law, the Syariah courts shall have jurisdiction in personal law matters, for example, marriage, inheritance, and apostasy. In some states, there is the sharia criminal laws, for example, the Kelantan Syariah Criminal Code Enactment 1993. Their jurisdiction is however limited to imposing fines for an amount not more than RM 3000, and imprisonment to not more than 6 months.[2] In August 2007, the then Chief Justice of Malaysia proposed to replace the current common law application in Malaysia with sharia law.[3]

Look i am not pakistani nor am i situated closely to pakistan. I have however been communicating with a pakistani friend for many a year now and have developed a close affinity to pakistan. I have no problem with islamic law what i do have a problem with is the implementation of this law by the taliban. (this could stem from my "skewed" version of the taliban thanks to the western media).

Do you really think that the taliban will disarm and do you really think that if they do not actions will indeed be taken?

Let us say that they do disarm, what of the women? Will they be treated as 2nd class citizens and be denied education etc. (as witnessed in afghanistan?)

Exactly my thoughts.

No problem with Islamic law but the Taliban. I dont believe they will disarm or stop their terror activities. Which is why implementing Sharia in the region is necessary cause it will show the people who supported the Taliban simply for Sharia what the Taliban really are. Bunch of illiterate scum using Islam simply for the lust of power. I'm pretty sure the army will take serious action once there is popular support against the taliban in the region. Thats the major hurdle at the moment which is why our army is holding back.

To be honest Keith, Women are treated as second class citizens all around Pakistan not just the tribal areas or areas under taliban rule.

[Keith]

Exactly my thoughts.

No problem with Islamic law but the Taliban. I dont believe they will disarm or stop their terror activities. Which is why implementing Sharia in the region is necessary cause it will show the people who supported the Taliban simply for Sharia what the Taliban really are. Bunch of illiterate scum hiding behind Islam. I'm pretty sure the army will take serious action once there is popular support in the region. Thats the major hurdle at the moment which is why our army is holding back.

To be honest Keith, Women are treated as second class citizens all round Pakistan not just the tribal areas or areas under taliban rule.

Tend to agree with you with regards the taliban not laying down their arms. Just does not seem to be in their nature and we all know what they say about greed and power!!!

Why do the women get treated so poorly? They are the mothers of any nation.

I can only comment about members but most of the members that are pakistani and married seem to treat their wives well and see them as, at minimum, equal. I am confused. :13:

[Muddaser]

Tend to agree with you with regards the taliban not laying down their arms. Just does not seem to be in their nature and we all know what they say about greed and power!!!

Why do the women get treated so poorly? They are the mothers of any nation.

I can only comment about members but most of the members that are pakistani and married seem to treat their wives well and see them as, at minimum, equal. I am confused. :13:

Most Pakistanis on this forum are either British/North American.

[Keith]

Most Pakistanis on this forum are either British/North American.

Kinda figured that but did not want to just assume!!

Anyway, back to the question.

Why do you think that women are treated so poorly in these areas? Education, culture, history?

I understand if you do not wish to answer but i am interested!!!

[Ayyub]

all crap.................they r not taliban they r dawat-e-islami people...

[Keith]

all crap.................they r not taliban they r dawat-e-islami people...

translation pse?

[Muddaser]

Kinda figured that but did not want to just assume!!

Anyway, back to the question.

Why do you think that women are treated so poorly in these areas? Education, culture, history?

I understand if you do not wish to answer but i am interested!!!

Definitely education and culture.literacy rate in Pakistan is 50%. 60% for men and around 40% for women.

Most incidents against women occur in the Rural areas where most Pakistanis live( Around 70%). This is where literacy is at its lowest and where Tribal/feudal culture is rife. Women are raped/killed for honour and revenge.

[HillRock]

What was the reason, these tribal areas were not like other areas (e.g punjab or other parts of Pakistan) at the first place?

What is stopping the pakistan Govt and tribal citizen to follow same rule as rest of the country. Anyway the tribals also feel they are part of Pakistan.
You are pretty much well read, that is what I have inferred from your posts. But it seems to me that you have no idea about FATA. You may want to read the status of FATA since 1947 and on what conditions they agreed to join with Pakistan when Quaid-i-Azam negotiated with them. They have special status and Pakistan agreed to never send armies in that area. So, FATA is a kind of semi-autonomous area. I think that answers your first question. There are many other things and for that you should read more into the history (recent and far) of that area and people.

As far as your second question is concerned, Pakistan constitution grants FATA a special status and that is what stopping the Pakistan govt. There is no police like other parts, no courts, just Jirgas of local elders. It has worked fine until soviet invasion on Afghanistan. From then on religious nutcases from all over the world funded by Saudi and US gathered over there and rest is the history.

I am really surprised that you don't know what I have described above.

[Keith]

Definitely education and culture.literacy rate in Pakistan is 50%. 60% for men and around 40% for women.

Most incidents against women occur in the Rural areas where most Pakistanis live( Around 70%). This is where literacy is at its lowest and where Tribal/feudal culture is rife. Women are raped/killed for honour and revenge.

Thanx. Thanx for the "chat" aswell. Appreciate it.

:19:

[Ayyub]

translation pse?


as long as army is not there all punjab can be safe.........but operation can make situation worst..........

[waqar_ahmad]

you know, some people are just trolls. Like sharuk, who spends all his time researching about taliban, an any other problems that he can dig out.

Get a life man, im sure you can find better things to do.

[max]

If the plan is to enforce this ordinance and take away excuse from the talibans, I can understand that. But what is to say that they will abide by the deal. Their spokesman already said yesterday on Hamid Mir show that they will not give up their weapons (just not show in public, like that is very comforting). When asked about girl schools, he said that qazi court will decide and take a guess who will appoint the qazi. Talk about living in denial.

[offstump]

lets give this deal a chance and see what happens...the last full scale operation in swat failed miserably...pakistan has to think in its long term interests, when the U.S. leaves the region what will happen to Pakistan? it's going to be all about damage control at that point...the entire situation is obviously very complex and much deeper than "good vs bad" using common sense one would ask where are these groups getting weapons, training, advanced communcations equipment and hundreds of thousands of dollars from? these sources need to be cut off and then these groups cannot exist...unfortunately for Pakistan there are too many players involved to fix this problem overnight

[zimmz]

Well majority of people in Pakistan understand that if USA leaves the region today, peace will come back, (fake) taliban will leave Pakistan and we will be able to see the Pakistan as it was before 2002. All these tribal areas and swat valley were peaceful then.

[Mohsin]

Taliban are in Punjab? By next week they'll be in Delhi. I find it amazing (even laughable) how some people are suckered by these 'quotes' by US officials talking about how Pakistan is about to break up. You know, india is going to break up in 2015 according to the CIA (more reliable sources then US officials).

Btw sharuk i'm impressed by the various articles you manage to find...even if it does suggest the vast time you have on your hands.

[pullshot]

Taliban are in Punjab? By next week they'll be in Delhi
By the next month in Australia and by the end of the year on Mars

[zimmz]

Actually they are trying to break the record of fastest trip around the world :D

[zimmz]

And sharuk is running behind them providing us all the latest news of their progress ;)

[offstump]

Well majority of people in Pakistan understand that if USA leaves the region today, peace will come back, (fake) taliban will leave Pakistan and we will be able to see the Pakistan as it was before 2002. All these tribal areas and swat valley were peaceful then.

yes this may be the case but keep in mind india has a growing presence in afghanistan now and may continue to finance the "pak taliban" to launch insurgency operations inside Pakistan...I think however, that Pakistan should be able to handle them by using former assets inside Afghanistan to counter the threat...only time will tell i guess, as Obama has made Afghanistan the new front of the "war on terror" so they will be in the region for the forseeable future

[zimmz]

India is not a big issue for us, we can handle it alone ;-)
Also If USA was next door neighbor just like India then I doubt they would have been able to cause such trouble for us.

[waqar_ahmad]

Terrorism will never end in the region until the US leaves Afghanistan. It is the US presence that is causing all the trouble.

As for Obama making Afghanistan his main focus, he is trying to push the war into pakistan, and trying to blame pakistan for US failures in Afghanistan. Thus, he is continuing the old US policy.

[offstump]

yes indeed, the blame game is being shifted to pakistan now...the entire scenario is quite laughable, the premise for invading afghanistan was 9/11, attacks planned by mainly saudi nationals in europe...the culprit was osama and he is yet to be found...then they attacked and occupied eye-raq, the premise was that rumsfield's old friend saddam had weapons of mass destruction...the weapons were never found and slowly the focus shifted from that to the fact that al-qaeda was now operating in eye-raq....now since the eye-raq war is a lost cause, the focus is shifting onto pakistan as a safe haven for al-qaeda and will launch attacks against u.s. interests in the region and abroad....alqaeda members must be suffering from serious jet lag these days...

[asifp]

If USA leave tomorrow, Taliban loses it ideology to recruit suicide bombers. Their whole agends is that USA is fighting us in the muslim heatland, lets fight back. What will they say once US leaves, we have defeated the infidels now lets kill our Muslim brothers?

[alybaba]

If USA leave tomorrow, Taliban loses it ideology to recruit suicide bombers. Their whole agends is that USA is fighting us in the muslim heatland, lets fight back. What will they say once US leaves, we have defeated the infidels now lets kill our Muslim brothers?
They will just call Muslims opposed to Taliban rule "non-muslims" and fair targets to kill. Just watch.

[offstump]

they will still have to get funding from the U.S., india etc to continue their activities inside Pakistan...

[srh]

Dunno about you being correct but i am pretty sure that you will get an asnwer from someone here regarding that issue. There certainly are quite a few intelligent posters with immeasurable knowledge of pakistan's history!!

I just do not think that a country can survive with more than 1 form of government at the helm. :13:

Well Canada has been doing it for quite some time with success. Its province Quebec has different rules than the rest of the country.

[Garuda]

You are pretty much well read, that is what I have inferred from your posts. But it seems to me that you have no idea about FATA. You may want to read the status of FATA since 1947 and on what conditions they agreed to join with Pakistan when Quaid-i-Azam negotiated with them. They have special status and Pakistan agreed to never send armies in that area. So, FATA is a kind of semi-autonomous area. I think that answers your first question. There are many other things and for that you should read more into the history (recent and far) of that area and people.

As far as your second question is concerned, Pakistan constitution grants FATA a special status and that is what stopping the Pakistan govt. There is no police like other parts, no courts, just Jirgas of local elders. It has worked fine until soviet invasion on Afghanistan. From then on religious nutcases from all over the world funded by Saudi and US gathered over there and rest is the history.

I am really surprised that you don't know what I have described above.
Thanks for the info. You are right, I am not aware of the history of FATA. Neither I had in my history books nor ever had the need to know about it till now. :)

Anyway, So it was kind of agreed on that lines when pakistan was created. I am just thinking, from governance point of view how feasible it is when a region in the country is not following the law of the country?

Even if they follow islamic law, the police and court should be enforcing it and not the any self appointed person. Isn't it?

[Muddaser]

Thanks for the info. You are right, I am not aware of the history of FATA. Neither I had in my history books nor ever had the need to know about it till now. :)

Anyway, So it was kind of agreed on that lines when pakistan was created. I am just thinking, from governance point of view how feasible it is when a region in the country is not following the law of the country?

Even if they follow islamic law, the police and court should be enforcing it and not the any self appointed person. Isn't it?

Thats the problem everyone in Pakistan has.

Who will run the courts.

This peace deal wont last if you ask me.

[waqar_ahmad]

Courts will be run by the state. Judges will be appointed by the state. THe only difference is that the judges will be trained in Islamic law.

[HillRock]

Thanks for the info. You are right, I am not aware of the history of FATA. Neither I had in my history books nor ever had the need to know about it till now. :)

Anyway, So it was kind of agreed on that lines when pakistan was created. I am just thinking, from governance point of view how feasible it is when a region in the country is not following the law of the country?

Even if they follow islamic law, the police and court should be enforcing it and not the any self appointed person. Isn't it?
Since FATA is federally administrated, there used to be a federal representative called "political agent" for each agency (tribe). This system was later changed by Musharraf and political agents became of much less importance in FATA. These agents used to be conduits between tribes and Pak govt and intervened only in the matter of big importance and whole tribes used to be responsible for individual crimes. This system used to be working pretty fine. When Musharraf changed the system (I don't know much about new system) and with the rise of militancy, a large number of tribal elders got murdered ruthlessly by these taliban and other extremists/criminals. Now, there is no such Jirga system (and hence no "collective responsibility") that can impose restrictions on Taliban. Quite opposite to it, now taliban impose their version of law. And whoever dares to oppose them, his dead body is found soon.

Recently, only in Bajaur agency Army completely wiped out militants by razing a whole big bazar containing hundreds of shops. They have made up a body of local elders opposed to talibans which have the backing of Army. So, this is not a simple problem, there is a catch 22. If they go after militants, they have to wipe out whole cities with a large number of civilian casualties.

[Blistering Barnacle]

Terrorism will never end in the region until the US leaves Afghanistan. It is the US presence that is causing all the trouble.


The US went to Afghanistan because of 9/11. If that hadn't occurred, they wouldn't have been there. And unfortunately, the stupid Taliban refused to hand over OBL and crew, which led to the war and thousands of deaths.

[observer1]

The US went to Afghanistan because of 9/11. If that hadn't occurred, they wouldn't have been there. And unfortunately, the stupid Taliban refused to hand over OBL and crew, which led to the war and thousands of deaths.

Mate, the Taliban were prepared to hand over OBL as long as the US gave them evidence.

You need Remember one thing, the US turned away from the Taleban when the Taleban needed Aid and outside help, and not only that, but they the US Pushed them back when they imposed sanctions on the country.

This meant, Afghanistan, a War-Torn country with poor infrastructure had to support itself, with the only form of help coming from Pakistan.

The only other help was apparently coming from OBL. So they could not just get rid off him over accusations. Considering he was the only friend.

The US has done nothing but caused trouble. What with constant Disgraceful acts against Muslims, Rape cases, Illegal Killings, Illegal kidnappings, damn.... Even started an illegal War in Iraq which is still going on.

To top it all of, the countries Media has made life difficult for Muslims live in the west. So save the Nonsense and rhetoric of "The US had good intentions" etc. because you know yourself it's garbage, absolute garbage.

You're more than welcome to give your points mate, but if you're going to talk Rubbish, i for one would not mind if you were banned.

[Butcher face spotter]

US may have been the force that fostered the Taliban along with Pakistan under Zia. But that is history and has no relavance for taday's situation. Taliban is its own beast now and nobody seems to be able to control it. They are power crazy and will find one reason or other to keep challenging the Pakistani Government and will continue make all efforts to spread their wings. The Americans leaving Afghanistan will not put and end to this problem.

[AZ]

once again, totally agree with Butchie...this problem needs to be tackled aggressively, and not by dialogue or compromises

[observer1]

US may have been the force that fostered the Taliban along with Pakistan under Zia. But that is history and has no relavance for taday's situation. Taliban is its own beast now and nobody seems to be able to control it. They are power crazy and will find one reason or other to keep challenging the Pakistani Government and will continue make all efforts to spread their wings. The Americans leaving Afghanistan will not put and end to this problem.

I did not understand your first sentence..


Well Captain obvious, the Americans leaving the country NOW will not put an end to the problem, since they've seem to have spawned a large amount of bigger problems.

[Keith]

I did not understand your first sentence..


Well Captain obvious, the Americans leaving the country NOW will not put an end to the problem, since they've seem to have spawned a large amount of bigger problems.

You should not be surprised. This is the normal modus operandi of the usa. History is just repeating itself. :po:

[Butcher face spotter]

I did not understand your first sentence..


Well Captain obvious, the Americans leaving the country NOW will not put an end to the problem, since they've seem to have spawned a large amount of bigger problems. There are people on this forum who argue that if the US left Afghanistan and Pakistan did not have a further involvement in the so called "War on Terror" then the Taliban menace would be contained. My point was in response to that.

[Blistering Barnacle]

Mate, the Taliban were prepared to hand over OBL as long as the US gave them evidence.

You need Remember one thing, the US turned away from the Taleban when the Taleban needed Aid and outside help, and not only that, but they the US Pushed them back when they imposed sanctions on the country.

This meant, Afghanistan, a War-Torn country with poor infrastructure had to support itself, with the only form of help coming from Pakistan.

The only other help was apparently coming from OBL. So they could not just get rid off him over accusations. Considering he was the only friend.

The US has done nothing but caused trouble. What with constant Disgraceful acts against Muslims, Rape cases, Illegal Killings, Illegal kidnappings, damn.... Even started an illegal War in Iraq which is still going on.

To top it all of, the countries Media has made life difficult for Muslims live in the west. So save the Nonsense and rhetoric of "The US had good intentions" etc. because you know yourself it's garbage, absolute garbage.

You're more than welcome to give your points mate, but if you're going to talk Rubbish, i for one would not mind if you were banned.

And I would be happy if you were exiled to Taliban controlled turf where you wouldn't be allowed to use the internet, or watch any western movies, listen to music, go clean-shaven, have your sisters, wife, and other family members treated with respect and equality.

As far as your points go, they are a load of bull.

The US did not turn away from the "Taliban" as you say. There was no Taliban then boyo.

The US did abandon the region after the Soviet withdrawal, if that is what you're trying to say, but let's not pretend that Pakistan was involved in the fight against the soviet invasion purely for the sake of the US.

As far as evidence for 9/11, OBL and Al Qaeda happily claim responsiblity for 9/11. Let me guess - you think it was a couple of jews that hatched the conspiracy.

The Taliban showed their true colors when they preferred to throw thousands of lives down the drain instead of handing over a handful of men that claim to have planned 9/11 - even when Pakistan tried to convince them for the sake of both Afghanistan and Pakistan's national interest.

As far as your other points go regarding rape or whatever you're rambling about, they are unrelated to the discussion at hand. If the US is responsible for Iraq, it doesn't mean that everyone else is suddenly a bunch of innocent angels and that the US is always the perpetrator. As I already stated, they wouldn't have been in Afghanistan if it weren't for 9/11. And as a matter of fact, 9/11 helped to convince Americans that they were at risk from terrorism, which in turn helped Bush to convince them to go to war with Iraq for fear of WMD falling into the hands of terrorists. Now, how do you feel about the chain of events?

Prior to 9/11, I worked with the UNHCR and interviewed hundreds of Afghan refugees in Pakistan. The US was the western country that took in the most refugees for resettlement. They did not approve of the Taliban because of their human rights violations but did not try to oust them from power.

The US may be the evil empire in your mind, but laying everything at their doorstep is a typical denial method used by small-minded people that refuse to accept any responsibility - basically, it's time for people like you to grow up.

[Javelin]

The basic reason for every religion to be different from every other religion, is that the followers of each one believe theirs to be the only true one.
Same goes for sects within religions, i.e. The followers believe every other sect to be wrong and theirs to be the only true path.
The Taliban, and it's followers, also follow the same line - They don't believe they are doing anything wrong. To them they are the only ones following Islam in the 'correct' way and it's the rest of us that are in the 'wrong', and need to be made to follow the 'true' path - either willingly or by force.
How do you fight that?

[Zeenix]

Just my two cents on a couple of notions that People have.

First of all Swat is not FATA, ITS PATA i.e Provincial Administered Tribal Area meaning that they are under NWFP Provincial departments. They are part of NWFP whereas FATA is NOT.

Secondly, Police, Courts and other things and every law of Pakistan applies on Swat unlike FATA.

For all those question marks being raised against the Saudi funded Madaaris, its simply not their game. It wasn't when there was that So called Great War against the Iron Curtain, and it isn't now. No Madrassas have a Military training Program as part of their syllabus. Those who are in Pakistan, they know that those Madrassas barely are able to fund the feeding of those destitute. Call any Madrassa and ask them to send their folks for Quran-Khwaani they were gladly send the Kids in the hope that they would be able to eat some good Food. It is financially and technically impossible for such madrassas to fund such operations. I have yet to meet an Imam or Qari who is well-off or is a Commando.

[Garuda]

The basic reason for every religion to be different from every other religion, is that the followers of each one believe theirs to be the only true one.
Same goes for sects within religions, i.e. The followers believe every other sect to be wrong and theirs to be the only true path.
The Taliban, and it's followers, also follow the same line - They don't believe they are doing anything wrong. To them they are the only ones following Islam in the 'correct' way and it's the rest of us that are in the 'wrong', and need to be made to follow the 'true' path - either willingly or by force.
How do you fight that?

The underlined one is the one I am most uncomfortable with.

Even if you think you are right and other one is wrong them let him go in the wrong way and face the almighty's punishment.

Who are you to drag him and let him follow your principle? What if you were wrong?

[zimmz]

The US went to Afghanistan because of 9/11.

...and 9/11 drama was created by USA to enjoy vacations in Afghanistan. Moreover OBL is most likely a tool used by CIA.

Peace in this region and USA adventure can't survive together. FACT!

[the Great Khan]

Just my two cents on a couple of notions that People have.

First of all Swat is not FATA, ITS PATA i.e Provincial Administered Tribal Area meaning that they are under NWFP Provincial departments. They are part of NWFP whereas FATA is NOT.

Secondly, Police, Courts and other things and every law of Pakistan applies on Swat unlike FATA.

For all those question marks being raised against the Saudi funded Madaaris, its simply not their game. It wasn't when there was that So called Great War against the Iron Curtain, and it isn't now. No Madrassas have a Military training Program as part of their syllabus. Those who are in Pakistan, they know that those Madrassas barely are able to fund the feeding of those destitute. Call any Madrassa and ask them to send their folks for Quran-Khwaani they were gladly send the Kids in the hope that they would be able to eat some good Food. It is financially and technically impossible for such madrassas to fund such operations. I have yet to meet an Imam or Qari who is well-off or is a Commando.


well Im sorry mate but your not looking hard enough...you need to phone up all these fleet street journos and ask them about the millions of Qaris and Madrassa's theyve been to where they are carrying out innovative infantry training and providing sophisticated weapons!!...typical Pakistani living in denial!!...arent you aware of the accurate information provided by the western media?

[161]

...and 9/11 drama was created by USA to enjoy vacations in Afghanistan. Moreover OBL is most likely a tool used by CIA.



It's just embarrassing how some Pakistanis are willing to believe the most ludicrous conspiracy theories.

[waqar_ahmad]

The US went to Afghanistan because of 9/11. If that hadn't occurred, they wouldn't have been there. And unfortunately, the stupid Taliban refused to hand over OBL and crew, which led to the war and thousands of deaths.
And here we are with the circular debate again. Even though this is not the topic of discussion, but Taliban just wanted the US to provide some evidence. The US did not.

[USaqaf]

In SA we have provinicial governments that govern the different provinces (11) but we have a central government that these provinicial governments report to. I think the usa is similar?

Malaysia is interesting. What if 2 laws totally contradict themselves, which 1 will prevail?

What is sharia law and what is secular law?


When Malaysia became independent they used English Common Law for civil law but Sharia for personal law, and this is only for muslims.

[Zeenix]

And here we are with the circular debate again. Even though this is not the topic of discussion, but Taliban just wanted the US to provide some evidence. The US did not.

And why would the Talibaan asking for evidence from their masters..

[waqar_ahmad]

Not a question of why. But you know they did, right? It was on TV, in the papers, where their spokesman said several times that give us the evidence, and only then can we think about giving you OBL

[Zeenix]

Not a question of why. But you know they did, right? It was on TV, in the papers, where their spokesman said several times that give us the evidence, and only then can we think about giving you OBL

Yes they played their role perfectly. They should have been given a few oscars for their performance. Unfortunately for them there was no strip-tease in it.

[waqar_ahmad]

Yes they played their role perfectly. They should have been given a few oscars for their performance. Unfortunately for them there was no strip-tease in it.
:))

So, im guessing you are going with the theory that OBL and Mullah Omar are all US tools?

[max]

People believing that USA leaving Afghanistan (not that they should) and ceasing the drone attacks, will pursue the talibans in Pakistan to lay arms and establish the writ of the government, are dreaming. They will find one more reason to keep their arms and continue creating trouble.

I mean what will it take for people to wake up. When they burning schools in Lahore and chopping people in defense and liberty market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjVTilJ2pqs

[zimmz]

:))

So, im guessing you are going with the theory that OBL and Mullah Omar are all US tools?

Possibly! OBL more so.

[waqar_ahmad]

O it is very possible. A major chunk of the Taliban are funded by the US and India.

[Blistering Barnacle]

And why would the Talibaan asking for evidence from their masters..

Don't ask questions like that. They don't know how to answer questions demanding logic and rationale.

[hussain_0216]

The Taliban are fine, over the last 50 years alone, the U.S has been involved in major massacres across the world.

Hundreds of thousands of dead Vietnamese, Korea, its has supported evil dictators across the world from Saddam to Pinochet to Noreaga..

Its soldiers have been involved in massive human rights abuses, everything from gang rape to murder.



In iraq it lied through its teeth to wage war and as a result millions are dead.




When it then makes accusations against the likes of iran or the Taliban its nothing more then a sick joke.



As long as the U.S involves itself in muslim affairs any one fighting against it should be supported.


The Taliban will have support as long as the U.S is in afghanistan,. and whats more is that the Taliban will win against the U.S & NATO

[Zeenix]

The Taliban are fine, over the last 50 years alone, the U.S has been involved in major massacres across the world.

Hundreds of thousands of dead Vietnamese, Korea, its has supported evil dictators across the world from Saddam to Pinochet to Noreaga..

Its soldiers have been involved in massive human rights abuses, everything from gang rape to murder.

In iraq it lied through its teeth to wage war and as a result millions are dead.

When it then makes accusations against the likes of iran or the Taliban its nothing more then a sick joke.


Its funny that the US fight against those groups with which it had actively collaborated and were a vital part of its strategy. Its naive to think that the ink of American Dollars will loose its texture so quickly. Saddam was the US blue eyed boy in the gulf, and they used him to perfection, w r t their strategy in the Gulf. As a parting gift they executed him. Likewise the Mujahideen were a vital part of the US strategy against USSR, and they have and are continuing to use them as their strategy.


As long as the U.S involves itself in muslim affairs any one fighting against it should be supported.


The Taliban will have support as long as the U.S is in afghanistan,. and whats more is that the Taliban will win against the U.S & NATO

I will say this to both of them..


I worship not that which ye worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

To you be your Way, and to me mine.

[Blistering Barnacle]

WASHINGTON — A growing number of U.S. intelligence, defense and diplomatic officials have concluded that there's little hope of preventing nuclear-armed Pakistan from disintegrating into fiefdoms controlled by Islamist warlords and terrorists, posing the a greater threat to the U.S. than Afghanistan's terrorist haven did before 9/11.....

....."The place is beyond redemption," said a Pentagon adviser who asked not to be further identified so he could speak freely. "I don't see any plausible scenario under which the present government or its most likely successor will mobilize the economic, political and security resources to push back this rising tide of violence.

"I think Pakistan is moving toward a situation where the extremists control virtually all of the countryside and the government controls only the urban centers," he continued. "If you look out 10 years, I think the government will be overrun by Islamic militants."...........

.......The Taliban "have now become a self-sustaining force," author Ahmed Rashid , an expert on the insurgency, told a conference in Washington on Wednesday. "They have an agenda for Pakistan , and that agenda is no less than to topple the government of Pakistan and 'Talibanizing' the entire country." ...


.."The Punjabi elite has already lost control of Pakistan , but neither they nor the Obama administration realize that," the official said. " Pakistan will be an Islamist state — or maybe a collection of four Islamic states, probably within a few years. There's no civilian leadership in Islamabad that can stop this, and so far, there hasn't been any that's been willing to try."


full story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090416/wl_mcclatchy/3214054_1

[MIG]

OK great so we have established that this is the greatest conspiracy ever - whats the plan to get rid of the Taliban menace?

No one should live under the kind of oppression proposed by the Taliban.

[Keith]

WASHINGTON — A growing number of U.S. intelligence, defense and diplomatic officials have concluded that there's little hope of preventing nuclear-armed Pakistan from disintegrating into fiefdoms controlled by Islamist warlords and terrorists, posing the a greater threat to the U.S. than Afghanistan's terrorist haven did before 9/11.....

....."The place is beyond redemption," said a Pentagon adviser who asked not to be further identified so he could speak freely. "I don't see any plausible scenario under which the present government or its most likely successor will mobilize the economic, political and security resources to push back this rising tide of violence.

"I think Pakistan is moving toward a situation where the extremists control virtually all of the countryside and the government controls only the urban centers," he continued. "If you look out 10 years, I think the government will be overrun by Islamic militants."...........

.......The Taliban "have now become a self-sustaining force," author Ahmed Rashid , an expert on the insurgency, told a conference in Washington on Wednesday. "They have an agenda for Pakistan , and that agenda is no less than to topple the government of Pakistan and 'Talibanizing' the entire country." ...


.."The Punjabi elite has already lost control of Pakistan , but neither they nor the Obama administration realize that," the official said. " Pakistan will be an Islamist state — or maybe a collection of four Islamic states, probably within a few years. There's no civilian leadership in Islamabad that can stop this, and so far, there hasn't been any that's been willing to try."


full story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090416/wl_mcclatchy/3214054_1

The highlighted portion really bothers me.

Who cares if it an Islamist state? It is the predominant religion in the country and there is nothing wrong with an islamic state run by an islamic govt!!!!!! Basically what they are saying is what many posters have been saying for a while now: USA sees Islam evil!!!!!

If they had said islamic fundamentalist state that would be a different situation alltogether but to claim that it will be an islamic state, with nobody willing to do anything about it, clearly shows that they classify all practitioners of islam as fundamentalists!!! What a load of crap!!!

Oxy, Momo, Mig and all other muslims: You guys are all fundamentalists and evil people, i do not think that i can play with you anymore!!!! :D

[MIG]

Brother Keith...pls present yourself to local Taliban office for 50 lashes.

[Garuda]

.."The Punjabi elite has already lost control of Pakistan , but neither they nor the Obama administration realize that," the official said. " Pakistan will be an Islamist state — or maybe a collection of four Islamic states, probably within a few years. There's no civilian leadership in Islamabad that can stop this, and so far, there hasn't been any that's been willing to try."


full story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090416/wl_mcclatchy/3214054_1

If for a discussion, we assume that it will happen. Who is going to be benefited out of it?

1. Pakistan - Get rid of the headache and can concentrate on the developed areas and move on.

2. Tribal areas (who separates out) :- Can implement their law as they want without worrrying about Pak army?

3. USA : - They can enter those areas without concerning Pakistan's reaction and make their solid base in the region?

4. India :- Happy that its rival is broken down. Not sure if that will decrease the military strength.


To me it looks like 3. Others may benefit to some extent but would loose more.

[Zeenix]

WASHINGTON — A growing number of U.S. intelligence, defense and diplomatic officials have concluded that there's little hope of preventing nuclear-armed Pakistan from disintegrating into fiefdoms controlled by Islamist warlords and terrorists, posing the a greater threat to the U.S. than Afghanistan's terrorist haven did before 9/11.....

....."The place is beyond redemption," said a Pentagon adviser who asked not to be further identified so he could speak freely. "I don't see any plausible scenario under which the present government or its most likely successor will mobilize the economic, political and security resources to push back this rising tide of violence.

"I think Pakistan is moving toward a situation where the extremists control virtually all of the countryside and the government controls only the urban centers," he continued. "If you look out 10 years, I think the government will be overrun by Islamic militants."...........

.......The Taliban "have now become a self-sustaining force," author Ahmed Rashid , an expert on the insurgency, told a conference in Washington on Wednesday. "They have an agenda for Pakistan , and that agenda is no less than to topple the government of Pakistan and 'Talibanizing' the entire country." ...


.."The Punjabi elite has already lost control of Pakistan , but neither they nor the Obama administration realize that," the official said. " Pakistan will be an Islamist state — or maybe a collection of four Islamic states, probably within a few years. There's no civilian leadership in Islamabad that can stop this, and so far, there hasn't been any that's been willing to try."


full story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090416/wl_mcclatchy/3214054_1


Do people really believe in this Bull

[Blistering Barnacle]

The highlighted portion really bothers me.

Who cares if it an Islamist state? It is the predominant religion in the country and there is nothing wrong with an islamic state run by an islamic govt!!!!!! Basically what they are saying is what many posters have been saying for a while now: USA sees Islam evil!!!!!

If they had said islamic fundamentalist state that would be a different situation alltogether but to claim that it will be an islamic state, with nobody willing to do anything about it, clearly shows that they classify all practitioners of islam as fundamentalists!!! What a load of crap!!!



Well it's a matter of wording. Clearly, Pakistan is already an Islamic state - it's called the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

The quotes in the article are obviously referring to a Taliban run state or something like it.

[Blistering Barnacle]

Do people really believe in this Bull

Where do you see Pakistan 10 years from now based on current events? Ie., what do you think is going to happen and what do you seeing Pakistan doing? Do you think it will pretty much be in the same position as today?

[zimmz]

Do people really believe in this Bull

Sadly yes! 4-5 examples can be seen at PP including the poster of that post.

[pakistanbest]

In Punjab, no way, what a load of BS, the taliban to do this would need all talibans based in Afghan and still they wouldnt be able to rule Punjab!

[Blistering Barnacle]

Sadly yes! 4-5 examples can be seen at PP including the poster of that post.

Hey, I'm the last person that wants that to happen, but it doesn't mean that you should dismiss things out of hand. If you can lay out what you believe will happen in the next 10 years that will be very different to waht those "experts" in the article say, I'd be happy to hear it. All I know is that the news evey day is getting worse and worse.

[zimmz]

Hey, I'm the last person that wants that to happen, but it doesn't mean that you should dismiss things out of hand. If you can lay out what you believe will happen in the next 10 years that will be very different to waht those "experts" in the article say, I'd be happy to hear it. All I know is that the news evey day is getting worse and worse.

Yes only the news! Reality however....

[Keith]

Yes only the news! Reality however....

Just a quick question. Where in pakistan are you at the moment?

[Blistering Barnacle]

Yes only the news! Reality however....

Care to elaborate? I've had a bomb go off in my street in Islamabad, shattering my house windows. Another one go off 5 minutes away on Margalla road. Not to mention the Marriot, which is another 5 min drive. I'd say that's reality buddy.

[Javelin]

If one was to take the views of the average rural villager in Pakistan vis-a-vis Sharia Law versus the existing Pakisan Civil Law, and if given the choice, which of the two they would prefer. The answer to this question will give a strong indication as to whether the Taliban could/would establish a stronghold, and the eventual direction Pakistan will take.

[Zeenix]

Random act of Terrorism is one thing, whereas the above article implies or atleast tries to imply that the Govt has no control whatsoever in Rural Areas. And the insurgency has succeeded. Even in FATA, where supposedly there is no writ of the govt, there are govt offices working, Schools (Male and Female) running, and forces are deployed (much to the consternation of the People). Little does one know that in FATA historically there was no writ of the govt. FATA is a semi-autonomous region, acting as a buffer zone between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Until recent times, a single representative of the Federal Govt, known as the Political agent would be posted there.

Just because a few managed to sneak in Lahore doesn't mean that Punjab (or for that matter NWFP) has been taken over by them. This is calculated propaganda aimed at gathering public support. Every Tom Dick and Harry can find anonymous sources allegedly from Pentagon and from the responses that i see here, they are succeeding in trying to turn Pakistan into a Pariah state.

As for our leaders, they are busy trying to sell this Pariah status so that they can gather more funds for the country. Small term gain, Long term Loss.

[IMMY69]

after 60 years of independance we have havent been able to sort our oqn country out...perhaps then the usa or india or whoever should come in and try to sort it out!!!

they can have all the oil they want!

[max]

This head in the sand approach is how we lost east Pakistan.

[Joseph K.]

Random act of Terrorism is one thing, whereas the above article implies or atleast tries to imply that the Govt has no control whatsoever in Rural Areas. And the insurgency has succeeded. Even in FATA, where supposedly there is no writ of the govt, there are govt offices working, Schools (Male and Female) running, and forces are deployed (much to the consternation of the People). Little does one know that in FATA historically there was no writ of the govt. FATA is a semi-autonomous region, acting as a buffer zone between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Until recent times, a single representative of the Federal Govt, known as the Political agent would be posted there.

Just because a few managed to sneak in Lahore doesn't mean that Punjab (or for that matter NWFP) has been taken over by them. This is calculated propaganda aimed at gathering public support. Every Tom Dick and Harry can find anonymous sources allegedly from Pentagon and from the responses that i see here, they are succeeding in trying to turn Pakistan into a Pariah state.

As for our leaders, they are busy trying to sell this Pariah status so that they can gather more funds for the country. Small term gain, Long term Loss.

This is extremely unfortunate. Pakistan is the centre of Global dirty-dealings at the moment. Everybody has interest in this 'terrorism' scare. Americans are selling arms and keeping the defence industry going, Indians are busy political point-scoring, Afghan leaders are using it to keep Americans in the region who are keeping Karzai's gravy-train going, our 'leaders' (Zardari & Co. Ltd) are selling it to get foreign aid (black-mailing the whole world, "give us money or the terrorists will take our nukes and kill you!"). The idiot terrorists are playing in the hands of all these powers gloating over their self-deluded misconception that they are fighting for the right cause. (I wouldn't be surprised if all these powers were collectively keeping the terrorists in the game by giving them financial and political aid) Who is suffering? Pakistan and her masses, the common people who get blown up in random explosions, whose children are dying of malnutrition and low standard of living. All this foreign aid is looted by the politicians and what does the common man get? Inflation and devalued rupee. All this influx of foreign aid has literally killed the local currency and rich are getting richer and poor, poorer. This is a very sad situation. We keep on pointing fingers at the enemy of our choice but there are more than one enemy and the worst of all is the enemy within: our so-called leadership.

[zimmz]

Just a quick question. Where in pakistan are you at the moment?

I am living in the area which is about to be rolled over by you know whom ;)
The city is Islamabad.

[zimmz]

Care to elaborate? I've had a bomb go off in my street in Islamabad, shattering my house windows. Another one go off 5 minutes away on Margalla road. Not to mention the Marriot, which is another 5 min drive. I'd say that's reality buddy.

and that means Taliban have control over this area?

So you experienced bombs only in Pakistan?


EDIT: read the post by Zenix.

[Blistering Barnacle]

and that means Taliban have control over this area?

So you experienced bombs only in Pakistan?


EDIT: read the post by Zenix.

I've read the post, but it doesn't answer where Pakistan will be in 10 years based on current events (and neither have you answered that).

It's very well to sneer at other people's analyses that have probably studied it a lot more than you have, but if you are not going to give your own projection, then what grounds have you to disparage their views?

I would appreciate a basic summary of your analysis of where Pak will be in 10 years. For myself, I'm negative but hope that the massive injections of aid will help to mobilize the govt and military to act, and that demonstrations like we saw in reaction to the video of the flogging will continue. However, I will take no chances and will advise my family to divest of their assets in Pakistan due to the constant encroachment of the Taliban into areas closer to cities.

edit:

About your bombs question, yes, it's not a regular occurence for bombs to go off in my street. I assume it's an everyday thing for you?

[zimmz]

Ask God about next 10 years because only He knows whats gonna happen. I am not fortune teller ;)

[Jamal Shah]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/world/asia/23buner.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print

April 23, 2009
Taliban Seize Vital Pakistan Area Closer to the Capital
By JANE PERLEZ

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Pushing deeper into Pakistan, Taliban militants have established effective control of a strategically important district just 70 miles from the capital, Islamabad, officials and residents said Wednesday.

The fall of the district, Buner, did not mean that the Taliban could imminently threaten Islamabad. But it was another indication of the gathering strength of the insurgency and it raised new alarm about the ability of the government to fend off an unrelenting Taliban advance toward the heart of Pakistan.

Buner, home to about one million people, is a gateway to a major Pakistani city, Mardan, the second largest in North-West Frontier Province, after Peshawar.

“They take over Buner, then they roll into Mardan and that’s the end of the game,” a senior law enforcement official in North-West Frontier Province said. He asked that his name be withheld because was not authorized to speak to the news media.

The Taliban had pushed into the district from the neighboring Swat Valley, where the Pakistani Army agreed to a truce in mid-February and remains in its barracks.

On Wednesday heavily armed Taliban militants were patrolling villages, and the local police had retreated to their station houses in much of Buner, officials and residents said.

Local nongovernmental organizations have been ordered to leave, and their offices have been looted, they said. Pakistani television news channels showed Taliban fighters triumphantly carrying office equipment out of the offices of the organizations.

“They are everywhere,” one resident of Daggar, Buner’s main city, said by telephone. “There is no resistance.”

The Taliban advance has been building for weeks, with the assistance of sympathizers and even a local government official who was appointed on the recommendation of the Taliban, the senior official said.

It also comes 10 days after the government of President Asif Ali Zardari agreed to the imposition of Islamic law, or Shariah, in Swat, as part of the deal with the Taliban.

A local politician, Jamsher Khan, said that people were initially determined to resist the Taliban in Buner, but that they were discouraged by the deal the government struck with the Taliban in Swat.

“We felt stronger as long we thought the government was with us,” he said by telephone, “but when the government showed weakness, we too stopped offering resistance to the Taliban.”

On Wednesday, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said she was concerned that the Pakistani government was making too many concessions to the Taliban, emboldening the militants and allowing them to spread by giving in to their demands.

“I think that the Pakistani government is basically abdicating to the Taliban and to the extremists,” Mrs. Clinton told the House Foreign Affairs Committee on Capitol Hill.

She added that the deterioration of security in nuclear-armed Pakistan “poses a mortal threat to the security and safety of our country and the world.”

A senior American official said Mrs. Clinton’s remarks were prompted in part by news of the Taliban takeover in Buner. The officials said that the further erosion of government authority in an area so close to the capital ought to stir concern not only in Pakistan but also among influential Pakistanis abroad.

The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, arrived in Islamabad on Wednesday for the second time in two weeks, reflecting the sense of alarm in the Obama administration. He was scheduled to meet with Pakistan’s top military and intelligence commanders.

The takeover of Buner (pronounced boo-NAIR) is particularly significant because the people there have tried in the past year to stand up to the Taliban by establishing small private armies to fight the militants. Last year when the militants encroached into Buner, killing policemen, the local people fought back and forced the militants out.

But with a beachhead in neighboring Swat, and a number of training camps for fresh recruits, the Taliban were able to carry out what amounted to an invasion of Buner.

“The training camps will provide waves of men coming into Buner,” the senior law enforcement official said.

The Taliban expansion into Buner has begun to raise alarm among the senior ranks of the Pakistani Army, said a Western official who was familiar with the Pakistani military.

On Wednesday, one of the highest-ranking army officers traveled from Islamabad to Peshawar and met with the officers of the 11th Corps, the army division based in Peshawar, to discuss the “overall situation in Buner,” the official said.

One of the major concerns is that from the hills of Buner the Taliban have access to the flatlands of the district of Swabi, which lead directly to the four-lane motorway that runs from Islamabad to Peshawar, the capital of North-West Frontier Province.

The Pakistani military does not have a presence in Buner, Pakistani and Western officials said. The main government authority in Buner is the police, who have become demoralized by their low pay and lack of equipment in the face of the Taliban, Pakistani police officials say.

The Taliban have set up checkpoints in a number of villages in Buner, intimidating policemen and forcing them into their police stations, residents in Daggar said by telephone.

The militants were patrolling the bazaar in Daggar, residents said. Women, who used to move freely around the bazaars, were scarcely to be seen, they said. Those who did venture out were totally covered.

One of the big attractions of Buner for people from all over Pakistan, the shrine of the Sufi saint Pir Baba, was now in the control of the militants, the senior law enforcement official said.

Last year, the villagers around the shrine kept the Taliban at bay when the militants threatened to take it over.

But in the last 10 days, the Taliban closed the shrine and said it was strictly off limits to women, the senior official said. The militants are now patrolling it.

The Taliban control in Buner came swiftly in the last few days, officials said.

The militants were helped by the actions of the commissioner of Malakand, Javed Mohammad, who is also the senior official in Swat and who was appointed on the recommendation of the Taliban, the senior law enforcement official said.

The Taliban began their assault on Buner in early April, when a battalion of the Taliban militia with heavy weaponry crossed over the hills from Swat to Buner, according to an account in the newspaper Dawn that appeared on Saturday.

The Taliban then captured three policemen and two civilians, and killed them, the newspaper said.

Infuriated by the killings, people in lower Buner and Sultanwas assembled a volunteer force and killed 17 Taliban fighters, the account said.

But soon after that, Mr. Mohammad tried to persuade the local elders to allow the Taliban to enter Buner, the newspaper said.

Soon afterward, Mr. Mohammad ordered the local armies to dissolve, the senior law enforcement official said. The order led many of those who had been willing to stand up to the Taliban to either flee or give up, the official said. Among those who are reported to have fled is Fateh Khan, a wealthy Buner businessman. Mr. Khan had been one of the main organizers and financiers of the private armies in Buner.

In a show of strength, the militants held a feast in the home of a local Taliban sympathizer two weeks ago, and since then the Taliban have fanned out into the district, the senior official said.

Pir Zubair Shah contributed reporting from Islamabad, and Mark Landler and David Stout from Washington.

[offstump]

Taliban not advanced closer to Islamabad: Haqqani
Updated at: 0445 PST, Thursday, April 23, 2009
http://www.geo.tv/4-23-2009/40482.htm

Taliban not advanced closer to Islamabad: Haqqani WASHINGTON: Pakistani Ambassador to the United States Husain Haqqani has said that there are not immediate threats from Taliban to takeover Islamabad and ruled out guesses of people that Taliban have possessed potential to capture Islamabad overnight.

In an interview with a US Television channel here on Wednesday, Husain was of the view the Taliban were isolated in mountainous regions and were not as close to Islamabad as is being portrayed.

Haqqani claimed the situation is under control and is being monitored by the Pakistani military.

“Pakistan is facing many challenges in terms of threats posed by Taliban but Government is cognizant with its responsibilities and geared up to take the Taliban bull by the horns” Ambassador maintained adding, “Swat peace accord was aimed at disarming Taliban.”

He questioned US army’s success in Iraq even after collapsing seven years.

----------------------------------------

interesting a statement like this is coming from a U.S. hack like haqqani

[Random Aussie]

Taliban not advanced closer to Islamabad: Haqqani
Updated at: 0445 PST, Thursday, April 23, 2009
http://www.geo.tv/4-23-2009/40482.htm

Taliban not advanced closer to Islamabad: Haqqani WASHINGTON: Pakistani Ambassador to the United States Husain Haqqani has said that there are not immediate threats from Taliban to takeover Islamabad and ruled out guesses of people that Taliban have possessed potential to capture Islamabad overnight.

In an interview with a US Television channel here on Wednesday, Husain was of the view the Taliban were isolated in mountainous regions and were not as close to Islamabad as is being portrayed.

Haqqani claimed the situation is under control and is being monitored by the Pakistani military.

“Pakistan is facing many challenges in terms of threats posed by Taliban but Government is cognizant with its responsibilities and geared up to take the Taliban bull by the horns” Ambassador maintained adding, “Swat peace accord was aimed at disarming Taliban.”

He questioned US army’s success in Iraq even after collapsing seven years.

----------------------------------------

interesting a statement like this is coming from a U.S. hack like haqqani

Yes Pakistan politicians are very believable and known for their honesty and candour.

[offstump]

yes similar to american and isreali politicians

[Random Aussie]

yes similar to american and isreali politicians

Yeah they are pretty similar for sure.

You want to think about that a little?

[offstump]

please explain

[observer1]

This is such a stupid thread, why is it not locked yet.

[asifp]

India must be loving this. The only way to stop this would be to go and overwhelm them with the might of the Army, but that would require moving 100,000 troops away from the Indian border.

[insaftak]

i recommend everyone to watch the talat huseein show from april 21st, its a great show and talks about why talibans get so much support in pakistan. there is already a link to the show in the talat hussein thread

[waqar_ahmad]

i recommend everyone to watch the talat huseein show from april 21st, its a great show and talks about why talibans get so much support in pakistan. there is already a link to the show in the talat hussein thread
Most liberals dont like watching shows like that coz these shows give them information. And if they have information, they cant blindly follow the west's lies and deceptions

[max]

i recommend everyone to watch the talat huseein show from april 21st, its a great show and talks about why talibans get so much support in pakistan. there is already a link to the show in the talat hussein threadI for one did watch that show (thanks pkpolitcs) and one thing noticeable was that all talibans leaders are not that educated in Islam, or educated at all (I wasn’t accepting them to be rocket scientist), because they consider themselves as the thanadar of Islam in Pakistan. Radio mullah was a chair lift operator (no offence to the chair lift business).

Talat (does the best current affair show, no doubt) seems to incline that the rise of talibans was mainly due to poverty and lack of opportunity. If poverty is the common link, it should impact all areas and all people. If that is the main cause, why haven’t they arose on a equal level all over Pakistan (they are coming up fast particularly in S. Punjab), and why haven’t we seen them in other poorer Islamic nations. Parts of Lahore and Karachi are as poor as SWAT, why not there. All this links back to the common ideology that the talibans (and their cousins in Irag, Afghanistan, etc) follow. OBL family is filthy rich, why did he choose this path? There are mudrasah of other sects, hanfi, baravli, shia, why is that talibans come from the deoband/whabi sect?

[Joseph K.]

Have Taliban really reached Buner or not???

[Indiafan]

Have Taliban really reached Buner or not???

Thats all Indian propoganda. Taliban has actually fled back to Afghanistan

[ahsan17]

Thats all Indian propoganda. Taliban has actually fled back to Afghanistan
Thanks for confirming. I can sleep in peace now. :)