OT:Are we Xenophobic?

[Schiller]

The answer seems to be particularly inclining towards an affirmative wrt Bob Woolmer. It almost seems as if we have an issue with a foreigner doing the job
and this is not only about the guys on this board but most media guys in general

For a nation that sends so many people abroad to live and breed, this is stupid and hypocritical if nothing else. specially rich coming from those that are living in england as brits themself.

so are we??

P.s For those that might think I am attacking en enitre nation can be assured that I am not. I am merely asking for a general pattern here.

Thanks

[Geordie Ahmed]

Yes we are!

i know this board does not represent the majority BUT it is a tad worrying at what i have read at times! BW is constantly refered to as a "****" "WHITE" etc by the ppl who do not want him as a coach!

[Schiller]

Exactly GA

and these will accuse us of having a slave mentality but obviously it takes a better mind to grasp it.

cant believe we attack him on the base of his color and nationality.
Trig would have been proud of himself in the company of htis lot

[Geordie Ahmed]

:oD :oD

Umar thats not fair of you to insult Trig like that! he would be disgusted to be associated with certain individuals from here :-D :-D

On a serious not i cannot believe they let colour dictate their opinions!

the most ironic comment came from Amjid in the "If not Bob the Who?" thread, he said we should employ Chappell,Waugh or Whatmore! then a few posts later he said that BW only cares about money, as if the individuals he mentioned love Pakistan, what rot i say :-D :-D

It sounds like a bit of a generalization to me. Although there is ptobably some merit to it...it still is very much a generalization.

I think the problem might be something completely different. I've noticed a trend in Pakistan that transcends onto the cricket field. We are so passionate about everything we do that we either love someone to death or form a severe hatred for them. This is also the case with foreigners. and if we come to dislike a "****" our remarks naturally tend to reflect racism. I'm no psychologist but I think it would help us a lot if we learn to control our emotions more. Yes, I know, this is a severe case of the kettle calling the pot black! :-)

[Schiller]

yar I try not to use bad language here but i tell ya i am realllllllly tempted here.


he threw in waugh and chappell and wahtmore simply cause he knew he was going ot be labelled a xenophobe and for political reasons he gave those three reasons, if you note, he didnt include a single desi in it. that itself reeks of insinerity
secondly whom did waugh coach?

faalto baatain kar raha hai

and all because BW is a white and a foreigner, even pakistani journalists mention that all the time. Sickening and Disgusting.

and apologies to Trig waisay, hes a better man

[Schiller]

atys, generalization is something i agree with so long as you allow for particularization.

to use a man's color and nationality against him is racism and xenophobia. period.

[zulfiqar]

I don't think they're hypocrisy at all... people who are against him are not against him becuz he's a foreigner... they are upset at the aussie 0-3 defeat, ICC defeat, and the VB defeat. Ok so they call him names, jus like call inzi aalo and shoaib *****, etc. There's a few people who think he shouldn't be coach because of his origin and that's not because of racist feelings, it's because they feel he "doesn't understand pakistani cricket", etc. Get a grip. Whenever ther's somethin bad to say about Pakistanis in general, y u so quick to jump on the issue Umar? Pakistani are hypocrits because they are racist to BW... pakistanis are hypocrits cuz they think Jeimma is acting indecently etcetc

[Schiller]

get a grip?

sounds quite familiar and thus ignored

[zulfiqar]

For a nation that sends so many people abroad to live and breed, this is stupid and hypocritical if nothing else. specially rich coming from those that are living in england as brits themself.

This isn't new stuff from u Umar! if u have nothing to say then fine with me; u guys continue.

[MIG]

We dont like anything different - It may sound sad and unreal but its the truth - you just have to wait for the reports of sectarian violence in Muharram to tell you the story there...

[Schiller]

so not a case of xenophobia mig? wouldnt yu say attacking color and nationality constitutes that? or are you saying we're nturally like that ?
which then would be sadder still

"This isn't new stuff from u Umar! if u have nothing to say then fine with me; u guys continue."

blah blah and blah...

[MIG]

No we ARE xenophobic - we just refuse to see it and will blame the whole world but never look at ourselves as the source of the problem ( as this thread is trying to do )

The amazing thing is that we dont even see shame in announcing the fact that we ARE xenophobic - we try and hide that under the ruse of religion , culture or "hum to aisay hee hain" type comments.

[Schiller]

the second part is one i had overlooked and that indeed makes it worse.
we like to boast about it which is really worse.

and you cant look at the source - ourself here cause then youre accused of being slavish to 'white" a furhter proof of xenophobia

seriously we need to consider this wasay

[MIG]

Look we are not perfect, nor is anything else for that matter - why is that such a problem to accept.

[Schiller]

because if we were to realise our faults, we would have to think about changing them.

that requires a lot of things, none that we wnt to think about. thinking itself hurts us as they say

[Sid]

I hope people know the meaning of the word xenophopic before they start using it!

[MIG]

Welcome to PP Sid.

From Answers.com

xen·o·phobe (zĕn'ə-fōb', zē'nə-)
n.
A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

I think we understand the meaning well :)

But Sid do you have an opinion on above ?

[Sid]

Everyone has an opinion...but true to most organisations, if you disagree with the status quo....then |-A

[Amjid Javed]

BW, is a rubbish coach regardless of his colour!

[MIG]

Eh Sid, so you dont want to give an opinion ?

[Daoud]

I'd agree with that. My grandma is a perfect example. In her eyes, anyone who isnt Pakistani or maybe Indian is ugly :-D

[Amjid Javed]

:-D

i think people on here seem 2 think just coz some foriegn coaches have done well that means all foreign coaches do well sadly it doesnt!

BW is trying to bring s.africa boringness to pakistans game which is killing the team.

2ndly pakistan need stability yet woolmer pi$$es about with side 2 much!

peeps have slagged pakistanis off for chopping and changing .. woolmers 10 times worse!

[Sid]

The answer seems to be particularly inclining towards an affirmative wrt Bob Woolmer. It almost seems as if we have an issue with a foreigner doing the job
and this is not only about the guys on this board but most media guys in general

So - it is improper for people to criticise BW? There are many legitimate reasons for criticisiin BW

1. Asia Cup failure to get into the finals
2. Videocon Cup failure
3. Australia challenge failure
4. ICC Trophy failure.
5. SL ODI Series failure
6. Whitewash Vs the Aussies
7. FAILURE in the VB series.

Oh no, it's only cos people don't like the colour of his skin!! :-*

[Amjid Javed]

The answer seems to be particularly inclining towards an affirmative wrt Bob Woolmer. It almost seems as if we have an issue with a foreigner doing the job
and this is not only about the guys on this board but most media guys in general

So - it is improper for people to criticise BW? There are many legitimate reasons for criticisiin BW

1. Asia Cup failure to get into the finals
2. Videocon Cup failure
3. Australia challenge failure
4. ICC Trophy failure.
5. SL ODI Series failure
6. Whitewash Vs the Aussies
7. FAILURE in the VB series.

Oh no, it's only cos people don't like the colour of his skin!! :-*

this has 2 be the best post posted on the board since we have moved!

also we failed to beat sri lanka in tests without murali!

[Daoud]

1. Asia Cup failure to get into the finals
2. Videocon Cup failure
3. Australia challenge failure
4. ICC Trophy failure.
5. SL ODI Series failure
6. Whitewash Vs the Aussies
7. FAILURE in the VB series

1. We lost less games than India, but that whole Bonus point thing plus a terrible loss to Sri Lanka meant we didnt make the finals
2. Yeah, that would be a failure. Failed to chase a sub 200 score was bad
3. 1 off match against the World Champions. Wasnt a terrible loss
5. Great form until the finals. I guess Woolmers SA form taking over
6. Yet we were whitewashed in 2 previous series. Cant hold it against him. If anything, we didnt lose by an innings once. Much better |-G
7. How many teams have won the VB series in recent times. 2 in the last ten years. Considering we were missing so many top bowlers, it was a very good effort

[Daoud]

also we failed to beat sri lanka in tests without murali!

In the same token, they failed to beat Pakistan without Shoaib, Sami, Shabbir and Gul. Id say a loss of these 4 is far greater than Sri Lanka's loss of Murali

[MIG]

Blame everyone except ourselves - BW doesnt sit with the batsman when they play that stupid shot or get themselves runout or bowl a no ball or miss a run out etc - as I said, blame EVERYONE except yourself - the Pakistani way - evident in all aspects of our lives from govt to sports to public services...

[Officer Barbrady]

Takes time to build a team. Choping and changing is easier though.

[fair_play]

Xenophobia is everywhere - and it is shameful to see it directed at Woolmer.

Islam has always preached the greatest degree of friendship and tolerance for all - and to attack Woolmer on the basis of his being a non-Pakistani is simply digusting.

What is remarkable is that so many Pakistanis suffer from Xenophobia when abroad. So in that sense, it's even less understandable.

It's also very cheap low level tactics - a few disgruntled ex cricketers started it off - and like anything cheap and vile it has caught on.

I'm most disgusted with it.

Yours sincerely,

Disgusted Of Royal Tunbridge Wells.

[Sid]

1. Asia Cup failure to get into the finals
2. Videocon Cup failure
3. Australia challenge failure
4. ICC Trophy failure.
5. SL ODI Series failure
6. Whitewash Vs the Aussies
7. FAILURE in the VB series

1. We lost less games than India, but that whole Bonus point thing plus a terrible loss to Sri Lanka meant we didnt make the finals
2. Yeah, that would be a failure. Failed to chase a sub 200 score was bad
3. 1 off match against the World Champions. Wasnt a terrible loss
5. Great form until the finals. I guess Woolmers SA form taking over
6. Yet we were whitewashed in 2 previous series. Cant hold it against him. If anything, we didnt lose by an innings once. Much better |-G
7. How many teams have won the VB series in recent times. 2 in the last ten years. Considering we were missing so many top bowlers, it was a very good effort
With reference to your points:

1. Why are we using a minnow as a yardstick?
2. Agreed
3. Defeatist attitude
5 (or is it 4??). Great form? If you count India as minnows, we only beat the minnows! WI CREAMED us!
6. Well - yea, we were whitewashed in the last 2 series..BUT 2002 we had our B-team and almost won the 1st test - and in 1999, we all but won the 2nd test. In this series, we didn't even come close! Fortunately for BW, the result couldn't be worse than 3-0!
7. And what was the common denominator in this series? Top order failure, we sent part-time batsmen up the order - who's fault is that? Us "xenophobic" pakistanis??

[Sid]

Whether it is the players fault or the captain's or the coach's is a matter of opinion! My point simply is, that there are LEGITIMATE reasons to criticise Bob - and if someone does, then you cannot accuse them of being racist or xenophobic!

[Amjid Javed]

Takes time to build a team. Choping and changing is easier though.

funny that, bobs one whose chopping and changing every game!

[Amjid Javed]

sids on a roll here.... good stuff!

no series won under new coach at all! if we lose 2 india he can get lost back to where ever he came!

i bet west indies are laffing their balls off they didnt employe such a clown off a coach.

[MIG]

FP: Well meaning and thoughtout as they may be, your opinion is lost on the younger gen, the gimme now/materialistic attitude means that they have very little idea of time - to them everything is NOW - tomorrow, 10 yrs from now is too far to think about - there is no point talking about the long term with these chaps.

As I said, that is exactly the reason Pakistans progress has been hindered over the past 55 yrs or so.

Yours Disgusted in Bahrain

[Officer Barbrady]

Amjid, I will discuss this issue with you once you can name a sutible PAKISTANI replacement who will get 2 or 3 years in the job. Till then it is Bob Woolmer; thank you.

[Sid]

Xenophobia is everywhere - and it is shameful to see it directed at Woolmer.

Islam has always preached the greatest degree of friendship and tolerance for all - and to attack Woolmer on the basis of his being a non-Pakistani is simply digusting.

What is remarkable is that so many Pakistanis suffer from Xenophobia when abroad. So in that sense, it's even less understandable.

It's also very cheap low level tactics - a few disgruntled ex cricketers started it off - and like anything cheap and vile it has caught on.

I'm most disgusted with it.

Yours sincerely,

Disgusted Of Royal Tunbridge Wells.

Can someone tell me WHO has criticised BW based on the colour of his skin? Even the ex-cricketers have given genuine reasons for it!

[fair_play]

Xenophobia is everywhere - and it is shameful to see it directed at Woolmer.

Islam has always preached the greatest degree of friendship and tolerance for all - and to attack Woolmer on the basis of his being a non-Pakistani is simply digusting.

What is remarkable is that so many Pakistanis suffer from Xenophobia when abroad. So in that sense, it's even less understandable.

It's also very cheap low level tactics - a few disgruntled ex cricketers started it off - and like anything cheap and vile it has caught on.

I'm most disgusted with it.

Yours sincerely,

Disgusted Of Royal Tunbridge Wells.

Can someone tell me WHO has criticised BW based on the colour of his skin? Even the ex-cricketers have given genuine reasons for it!


Sid, nowhere do you see any mention of skin colour! Where did you spring that from?

A number of people have said that a non Paksitani sould not be coach - that is their starting premise. I dont agree - as there are many factors involved. Professionalism, coaching skills, ability to communicate with players (this could be held against a foregin coach), modern training methods to name but a few.

But that is the problem here - most criticim does not reach the conclusion that a foreginer would not make a good coach - it starts with it as a premise! Its not apparent to me that its axiomatic by any means.

[Sid]

Normally, the reasoning behind "non Pakistani should not be coach " is that he would not know enough about Pakistani cricket to do justice to the job. That is not xenophobia, that is a simple observation!

Too much paranoia around!

[Ayubi]

Here here Sid!
While reading through this topic I was thinking exactly the same thing...that why does, not wanting woolmer remaining as coach equate to xenophobia?? What kind of twisted logic is that?

Can't people have normal cricketing reasons as to why they don't want somebody as coach? I thought Mudassar Nazar was a terrible coach, what terminlogy will you attach to that?

[Sid]

Here here Sid!
While reading through this topic I was thinking exactly the same thing...that why does, not wanting woolmer remaining as coach equate to xenophobia?? What kind of twisted logic is that?

Can't people have normal cricketing reasons as to why they don't want somebody as coach? I thought Mudassar Nazar was a terrible coach, what terminlogy will you attach to that?

U thought Mudassar was a terrible coach? NOw ur discriminating against.....errm....freshies??

Seriously tho Ayubi sahb, some people are so paranoid, that they believe there's always something sinister behind a simple criticism!

[Amjid Javed]

Sid, since BW has taken over peeps like umar and many others have been happy 2 slag off are very own.

imran khans a full, asif iqbals a fool, majid khans a fool etc.... blah blah they are jealous off bob and his money so they are wrong...

woolmer is top coach he knows it all more than peeps who have played for pakistan and know the culture..!

theres a saying people in glasses houses shudnt throw stones!

[Ayubi]

Sid, that's right. Mudassar has slightly lighter skin than mine, thus I have a phobia of him!

People just love terming people in this society to create schisms & categories

It's like homophobia. If you despise the idea of homosexuality then you're simply a homophobic ie you have a fear of it. Such cr@p!

[Schiller]

a lighter skin is not xenophobia boysie ;-)

[MIG]

Ayubi/Sid - you seem to be hung up on this Xeno thread for a while - I mean I went to sleep and comeback and you guys are still here !

Tell you what, there are a number of OTHER topics on this forum ....

AJ I can understand - he lives in PP :) But you guys are "new" so why not explore other parts of PP and benefit us with your expert opinions?

[Schiller]

Great to have you posting back here FP with more regularity, shall I say. Also glad to read your and Mig's views on it.

[Ayubi]

If you explored other parts of PP you'll notice I have. You're obviously tired, go back to sleep

[Ayubi]

schiller, most coherent & intelligent sentence you've ever written

[MIG]

Easy Ayubi - relax it was a joke. Looks like I am not the one suffering from sleep deprivation here. ( here is a smiley :oD )

You have 5 posts so far....

I stand corrected.



Are we Xenophobic?
Ayubi

Replies: 47
Views: 235
Forum: Cricket Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:20 am Subject: Are we Xenophobic?
If you explored other parts of PP you'll notice I have. You're obviously tired, go back to sleep
Topic: Are we Xenophobic?
Ayubi

Replies: 47
Views: 235
Forum: Cricket Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:09 am Subject: Are we Xenophobic?
Sid, that's right. Mudassar has slightly lighter skin than mine, thus I have a phobia of him!

People just love terming people in this society to create schisms & categories

It's like homopho ...
Topic: Who is the most naturally gifted cricketer today
Ayubi

Replies: 50
Views: 207
Forum: Cricket Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:59 am Subject: Who is the most naturally gifted cricketer today
Wasim bhai! Definitely the most gifted bowler ever. the fact that he under-achieved relative to his ability is another story.
Topic: Pakistani's born in England - Why don't you support England
Ayubi

Replies: 29
Views: 136
Forum: Cricket Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:48 am Subject: Pakistani's born in England - Why don't you support England
Pakistanis born in England are Pakistanis by definition!
Topic: Are we Xenophobic?
Ayubi

Replies: 47
Views: 235
Forum: Cricket Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:17 pm Subject: Are we Xenophobic?
Here here Sid!
While reading through this topic I was thinking exactly the same thing...that why does, not wanting woolmer remaining as coach equate to xenophobia?? What kind of twisted logic is tha ...

[Schiller]

And yet its still better than your incoherent senseless drive through the lanes of intellect eh?

[Ayubi]

oh & you were doing so well!

[Schiller]

tch tch tch

[Ayubi]

so schiller, how're you doing this morning?

[MIG]

Ayubi Mian - is there some problem that we dont know about ? Your post above is rude and disgusting.[which you have kindly edited now - dont know what you are trying to prove here]

Pls consider this your first and last warning.

Thanks.

[Civil]

yeah i would say majority of pakistani people i know lean toward xenophobia, I have kind of unique perspective being only half pakistani and seeing two sides.

Btw we've been havin lots of contreversial topics lately people, and they stir emotions but lets keep our cool

[Ayubi]

MIG, definitely no problem from my end anyway.Thought I was contributing to this discussion!

[MIG]

Ok - Ayubi lets relax and get back to business - I am sure you have lots to do and so do I .

Pls do contribute to the discussion but the fact is that what you posted ( before you edited ) does not become any decent person and especially not a Muslim brother ( which you no doubt are ).

Lets leave it at this and continue enojoying this forum - otherwise its not fun any more - thats the last thing we all want.

Thanks

[Ayubi]

I agree. But are comments like this becoming of a decent person & a muslim brother?

'And yet its still better than your incoherent senseless drive through the lanes of intellect eh?'

MIG you & I know both know we were doing fine before I was unneccessarily riled into a slanging match.
All I wanna do is get my point across without making or recieving personal digs.
If that's a problem I'll leave now. You can delete this you wish, you're the boss

[Ayubi]

Umar, I've said my piece on this issue & will not respond to any more, regardless

I'll continue to comment on the thread if I feel necessary & none of my points will be aimed at any individual, rather the subject in discussion. I'd expect the same from you.

[MIG]

I am not the boss - I help out here cos I enjoy the people contact and cricket -

I would suggest that you do the same.

[feather]

I agree with everything that Schiller, MIG and fair play had to say. It is so sad that our people think like that...I wish they would just open their eyes...it isn't even about bob because this effects us and our country on far bigger scale than to be worried about who our national cricket coach is.

We would be years ahead if our people didn't think like that.

[Amjid Javed]

blah blah and blah

|-H post off the week here :-D

[MIG]

And AJ is a good guy as well....

[zulfiqar]

MenInGreen Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:54 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FP: Well meaning and thoughtout as they may be, your opinion is lost on the younger gen, the gimme now/materialistic attitude means that they have very little idea of time - to them everything is NOW - tomorrow, 10 yrs from now is too far to think about - there is no point talking about the long term with these chaps.

Actually, thinking of 10 yrs from now is more of a materialistic viewpoint than thinking of now :)

Also on another note, I second AJ for post of the week! It seems that's all Schiller has to say these days to anyone wiht an indifferent view :)

I agree with SId's viewpoint. There is ample reason to be mad at Bob as our coach. I myself support Bob that he should stay pakistani coach till the end of his contract, but I think people are in their right to critize him. The reason i was so riled up at the initial post schiller made was because he said that pakistanis are hypocritical etc etc and he's been doing it in other threads lately as well.

[feather]

There is fine line between being a little mad at some one and being up there ahem ahem.

Pakistanis are hypocritical not everyone is but most of us are.

[Amjid Javed]

so its only pakistanis who are hypocrytical and rest off world isnt??? bad bad pakistan! what a horribal country!

[MIG]

Zulfiqar - can we pls not take personal pot shots at people - AJ is entitled to his opinion as is Sid, Ayubi and the Schiller chap - no one has to answer for that .

Schillers point of view and one I subscribe to ( cos hes paid me money for it ) is that BW can only work with what he has. Referrring to BW as an English coach who doesnt understand the culture etc is tantamount to talking about his ethnic background. See when Miandad was coach, we did not say that since he is from Karachi, he doesnt understand the mindset of players from rural punjab - anyone saying such a thing should have been shot (IMHO ) - so we must apply the same to BW.

He has made mistakes but if you read Noddy Bs posts, he had never had a bad word to say about BW directly - he has criticixed Team Mgmt which is fair game.

Also, unlike Miandad and many other cricketers turned coaches, there is no history for BW to be worried about as far as his relations with Pakistan cricket establishment is concerned. That must be a good thing

As far as his skills are concerned , I dont think he is anything less than other coaches around the world - I mean Duncan Fletcher wasnt the most well known batsman in the world, nor had he coached Australia or anything, yet he has been instrumental in turning around the fortunes of Eng. That to me is mainly due to ECB fixing their house with cricket academy etc rather than DF doing some magic work.

This is why BW needs to be supported by PCB bu fixing their domestic situation etc. Once you start producing these technically good cricketers, and we fail - then you can blame the coach. At the moment, one half of this equation is missing.


I am not expert but this is my opinion....

Thanks for paying attention.

[feather]

Your taking what i said out of context...Most Pakistanis are hypocritical of others just like you are example the above post...Like I said most of us are and some aren't and your not one of them.

2 wrongs don't make 1 right...

[pinger]

As an outsider, there are some things, such as the language you use to describe foreigners, or your neighbours, the Indians to be xenophobic.

Also, Pakistani's seem to tolerate differences less, for instance, there is this assumption that all Pakistani's should be Muslim, and strict. To me, it smells of being a theocracy, and also a little xenophobic when you start judging individuals on the basis of these assumptions.

[MIG]

good point pinger..well put.

I think expecting Pakistanis to be Muslims can be forgiven as the country WAS created for Muslims ( like Israel for the Jews ) However, we in Pakistan are very protective about our traditions etc and that can easily be translated or construed as Xeno...

[MIG]

I think we need to start afresh here - pls stick to the topic or dont post - your choice.

[Sid]

MIG the following is THE TOPIC!!

I think the problem with this thread is the initial premise. If you want to talk about "pakistanis and xenophobia" in general then we are talking a massive topic - it would be as big a topic as "pakistanis and the slave mentality"!!

To start using the treatment of Bob Woolmer as the initial premise is ridiculous to say the least. A lot of us (including myself) thought it was a great idea to have Bob as coach, it is only recently when he has failed to improve the team that some of us are criticising....

A better more general topic should be "Are we paranoid?" You want to start that off Schiller?

[Schiller]

Ggm, your thoughts?

[KB]

I think different people are motivated by different factors. Certainly in the statements of Sarfraz Nawaz (“"How would foreigners be interested in Pakistan's progress, they would muster the wealth and go away”) a hint xenophobia appears to be present. Some sections in the media too – e.g Rehan Siddique (remember his comment after the WC, “to appoint a Jew, Richard Pybus, of dubious credentials to coach highly strung individuals did not help the team's cause”) - can barely restrain their xenophobic impulses. There are other somewhat suggestive comments like, “Don't be surprise [sic] if he (Woolmer) takes Pakistan cricket for a ride.” (Salahuddin Ahmed). Some other former players seem slighted by the fact that they have been over-looked in favour of a foreigner.

However many people have also cited and advanced cricketing reasons for their criticisms of Woolmer. It would be utterly wrong to portray all those that criticise Woolmer as being motivated by xenophobia. I am sure many on this board are sincere in their criticism and have no private agendas.