Opinions on marriage involving young teenagers

[zimmz]

^^^ No one is discussing rape (or breaking democratic laws) here hasan.

[AZ]

not if you're married to her

[TAK]

Do you want me to print a certificate for any 9 year old girl? Do you or I have a capability to test other's emotions? I am sure you understand the word 'possibility'.

How do you explain a 5 year old becoming mother (a real case)?

you seemed to be suggesting that at 9 a girl was physically and emotionally mature enough for marraige

i just want to be clear that that is what you were suggesting

unfortuantely, i cannot give an explanation of a girl aged 5 becoming a mother

it is the age with i assosciate with children starting school zimmz

[Javelin]

If I was to do a survey, I suspect that those of you who have daughters/sisters/close neices, especially under the ages of 9 or 10, will have very different views compared to those who don't.

[hasanb]

not if you're married to her

Thats the point, the law would deem it a forced marriage since the girl is not mentally able to consent to marriage at such an age. Therefore if she cant consent to marriage then it goes without saying she cant consent to sex...and hence it would lead to a rape charge.

Zimmz, when we talk about the present time...then of course we have to talk about the current laws dont we?

[AZ]

the same thing all over again, mate...times have changed, laws have changed, requirements have changed...Wazeeri's post a page or two back made some very clear observations

[zimmz]

TAK you keep switching context of the discussion.

We started with general possibility among females for which you asked 'in this day and age'. Now your post gives the impression that I was talking about particular girl (possibly Hazrat Aisha (ra)).

Finally you admit that we as a third person can not explain or judge the physical or mental maturity of any given case so what exactly you are trying to establish?

[hasanb]

the same thing all over again, mate...times have changed, laws have changed, requirements have changed...Wazeeri's post a page or two back made some very clear observations

Yaar I know all that, if you read my previous posts too...in those I clearly stated that I am not very willing to discuss the Prophet's(p.b.u.h) time, because who am I to question his actions? Im simply unwilling to perhaps say something that i might really regret later on...so yes im discussing that to an extent to (to increase my knowledge) but I am mainly debating about the present day and age...where middle aged and old aged men are marrying children...then consummating the marriage, claiming it is part of their custom and tradition.

It seems that some people dont understand the difference in time periods if they are doing such acts now...

[Looney]

Those who are interested in learning about the relationship between Aisha and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) should read this:

http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/prophet_aisha.htm

It is interesting to read and explains everything very well. :)

[TAK]

We started with general possibility among females for which you asked 'in this day and age'. Now your post gives the impression that I was talking about particular girl (possibly Hazrat Aisha (ra)).


ah apologies...

you seemed to be suggesting that IN THIS DAY AND AGE at 9 a girl was physically and emotionally mature enough for marraige

i just want to be clear that that is what you were suggesting

[zimmz]

^^^ Yes! I would never rule out the possibility associated with nature irrespective of time.

Read the comments of one of the youngest mother in UK and see if you can form an opinion about her mental maturity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-385968/Girl-11-Britains-youngest-mother.html

[TAK]

Finally you admit that we as a third person can not explain or judge the physical or mental maturity of any given case...

did i?

or do you mean because i can't explain a 5 year old becoming a mother?

[TAK]

^^^ Yes! I would never rule out the possibility associated with nature irrespective of time.

and to extend this then a little, would you would consider marraige to a 9 year old girl?

and may i just say you are remarkably well informed about instances of childbirth amongst extremely young girls

[hasanb]

^^^ Yes! I would never rule out the possibility associated with nature irrespective of time.

Read the comments of one of the youngest mother in UK and see if you can form an opinion about her mental maturity.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-385968/Girl-11-Britains-youngest-mother.html

Whilst that article is a damning indictment on the severe ills of parts of society here, it is still a case which cannot be compared in many aspects. The girl was 11 yes...but the fact this made the news shows that this is not the norm! It is not accepted that an 11 year old can be mentally mature enough to be a mother.

Also the boy that knocked her up was 15...himself below 18 and so therefore no laws were broken. If the father had been a 40 year old man lets say...the headline wouldve been a very different one I can assure you!

[TAK]

Also the boy that knocked her up was 15...himself below 18 and so therefore no laws were broken.

i wonder why he was charged with rape then :13:

[hasanb]

i wonder why he was charged with rape then :13:

oh was he...i didnt read the whole article, just the top part...hold on let me just read the whole thing!

Yes well thats a bit of a surprise then...so there you go it clarifies even further what i said even earlier about the rape laws. Hes only 15 yet he still got charged...

[zimmz]

and to extend this then a little, would you would consider marraige to a 9 year old girl?

and may i just say you are remarkably well informed about instances of childbirth amongst extremely young girls

Had you read all of my posts in this thread then you would get the answer already. How on earth you link the views with personal preferences?

Repeating what I and many others said earlier in this thread about the impression one get of you:

--If 'some thing' is ok (or possible) in your view then you must experience it yourself.
--If I do not feel comfortable with some thing then no one else should feel comfortable.
--If some thing in the past is deemed ok, it must be practiced now.

[coca-cola]

^^^

in this day and age?

did that happen in this day and age? w

[TAK]

Had you read all of my posts in this thread then you would get the answer already. How on earth you link the views with personal preferences?

Repeating what I and many others said earlier in this thread about the impression one get of you:

--If 'some thing' is ok (or possible) in your view then you must experience it yourself.
--If I do not see feel comfortable with some thing then no one else should feel comfortable.
--If some thing in the past is deemed ok, it must be practiced now.

sadly the impression i get of you is somebody with an unhealthy fascination with young girls zimmz

[zimmz]

The girl was 11 yes...but the fact this made the news shows that this is not the norm! It is not accepted that an 11 year old can be mentally mature enough to be a mother.


So basically what you are saying is if this pracctice was norm, it would not have made the news, implying the practice was norm 1400 years ago since no one at that time made hoopla about that event.

[TAK]

did that happen in this day and age? w

some white trash got knocked up at 11 :14:

it really shows that girls aged 9 are emotionally and physically ready for marrauige aged 9

get the rubber stamps out

[zimmz]

sadly the impression i get of you is somebody with an unhealthy fascination with young girls zimmz

Uncle I think you need a rest now for you were busy whole day beating around the bush and it must have made you tired.

Good night!

[TAK]

Uncle I think you need a rest now for you were busy whole day beating around the bush and it must have made you tired.

Good night!

how old are you calling me uncle?

[AZ]

@ TAK

I must say that the way you are arguing your point is severely undermining your point of view...your continuous insulting of the fellow PPers and snide remarks make you more like a douchebag instead of a guy with a genuine query

[Ladies Man]

My take on this is simple.

Our beloved Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) would have never acted out this vile act of marrying and consummating marriage with a 9 year old child. Who says she was 9? What proof is out there that she was 9? Some random unqualified hadeeth? Narrated by who? If Allah has only promised to keep the sanctity and integrity of Holy Quran intact and not hadeeths who are we to give so much importance to texts that in actuality incite hatred against our beloved Prophet and go against the very core of Quranic teachings. Marriage is through consent only of both parties; and no 9 year old -- irrespective of her physical development -- can be mentally capable of making this decision. Hazrat Abu Baker wouldn't have made this decision on her behalf as he himself would be going against the very teachings of Islam.

TAK and Javelin are absolutely right in expressing their discomfort with this. Even though TAK needs to tone down the rhetoric as he's not aware of the complete truth. But I really don't blame him as any sane person would feel likewise. Islam is for all times and Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) was the greatest practioner of Islam. Let's not have poisonous half-baked half-truth hadeeths destroy the reputation of this great man. Remember once again, Allah never promised security for hadeeth texts -- but just Quran. Make an educated decision.

[AZ]

so now what, we pick and choose the Hadeeth that sound right?

[Looney]

you seemed to be suggesting that at 9 a girl was physically and emotionally mature enough for marraige

i just want to be clear that that is what you were suggesting

unfortuantely, i cannot give an explanation of a girl aged 5 becoming a mother

it is the age with i assosciate with children starting school zimmz

It was the norm at that time and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was ordered by Allah to do so. In the link i posted above, it clearly says that Aishah herself saw Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in her dreams 3 times.


Her Marriage with the prophet was a Wahi (Divine Revelation). She, herself relates from the Prophet, ‘He said, "I saw you in dreams three times. The angel brought you to me and you were clad in white silk. He (the angel) said that it was your consort and he (angel) showed me by opening your face. You are just like that…" Sahih Muslim, Vol.2, p.285.

He married her because he was worried about the future of Islam. He married her so she could learn about Islam from him and then pass on the knowledge to others. She was his wife so she would know about intimate details of his personal life.

Also, when she was little, she used to have race with him. She even used to play with dolls in his presence! He treated her like a child when she was a child.

Marriages don't always have to be about sex and making babies. Sometimes, you just need companionship. Sometimes, you might be looking for someone to provide you with security and stability. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) married her so she can teach others about Islam after him.

[AZ]

lovely post Looney, especially the 2nd part...people are not fully appreciating the tremendous impact of this blessed union

[TAK]

Also, when she was little, she used to have race with him. She even used to play with dolls in his presence! He treated her like a child when she was a child.

dear me

Marriages don't always have to be about sex and making babies.

this marraige was consumated looney

[coca-cola]

some white trash got knocked up at 11 :14:

it really shows that girls aged 9 are emotionally and physically ready for marrauige aged 9

get the rubber stamps out

arrogant and disrespectful and I'm the one whose a kid?!

anyways did i say that? i simply pointed out that your 'time and era' point was irrelevant.

[Ladies Man]

so now what, we pick and choose the Hadeeth that sound right?

You don't get it do you? Allah didn't write hadeeths; and neither promised to keep them intact. Some human did; and that too based on narrations of historical/fictional events from other humans years down the road.

If Quran prescribes marriage through consent only; and some hadeeth narrates that the father of a child bride made that decision on her behalf which one would you give more credence to?

Which act would you follow? Allah has given you a brain -- use it.

[TAK]

arrogant and disrespectful and I'm the one whose a kid?!

anyways did i say that? i simply pointed out that your 'time and era' point was irrelevant.

do you seriously expect me to have respect for a white trash girl who has got pregnant at 11 to a boy that has been charged with her rape with a mother that is proud of her for keeping the baby?


what is your point about time and era - because i don't have a clue what you are muttering?

[hasanb]

Also, when she was little, she used to have race with him. She even used to play with dolls in his presence! He treated her like a child when she was a child.



Its happened to me quite a few times on this thread....but again im just lost for words...

[Ladies Man]

He married her because he was worried about the future of Islam. He married her so she could learn about Islam from him and then pass on the knowledge to others.

Where do you get of all this? Did Allah mention this in the Quran? Or are you speaking on Prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) behalf?

Refrain from making up fictional narrations when you don't have your facts in order. I don't need to remind you that you are committing a very grave gunnah.

[TAK]

Its happened to me quite a few times on this thread....but again im just lost for words...

hasanb - my setiments PRECISLEY

[coca-cola]

ah apologies...

you seemed to be suggesting that IN THIS DAY AND AGE at 9 a girl was physically and emotionally mature enough for marraige

i just want to be clear that that is what you were suggesting

you weren't talking about the 11 year old. you were talking baout a certain nine year old.

[Wazeeri]

I thought that 'The number of times Hadhrat Aisha(RA) witnessed the earth orbitting the sun' was the whole point of this discussion and this thread?

That is what the thread is about but not what your question was about.

Your question was regarding the Prophet(pbuh)'s actions being timeless.

I answered that by suggesting that the age of Hadhrat Aisha(RA) has nothing to do with the islamic principles. The islamic principles in regards to marriage are simple, (consent and marriagable ages) and they were conformed to in the marriage of hadhrat aisha(ra) to the Prophet(pbuh).

Restricting the age at which it is legal to get married to 16 or 18 is just a decission taken to help police and govern marriages and it doesn't not negate the teachings of islam or go against it. It is just an adjustment to the shariah in accordance with the chaging situation which is allowed under islam.

A girl reaching puberty is just one piece of a jigsaw puzzle, that only once completed can it be said that she has become a woman.

That is a question I posed earlier to googly. What are the other pieces of this jigsaw? and how do you assess when all the pieces are in place?

[AZ]

Where do you get of all this? Did Allah mention this in the Quran? Or are you speaking on Prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) behalf?

Refrain from making up fictional narrations when you don't have your facts in order. I don't need to remind you that you are committing a very grave gunnah.

the real fact is that this question has yet to be unanimously resolved and decided upon...some people consider this instance to be authentic, and some don't

[Looney]

My take on this is simple.

Our beloved Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) would have never acted out this vile act of marrying and consummating marriage with a 9 year old child. Who says she was 9? What proof is out there that she was 9? Some random unqualified hadeeth? Narrated by who? If Allah has only promised to keep the sanctity and integrity of Holy Quran intact and not hadeeths who are we to give so much importance to texts that in actuality incite hatred against our beloved Prophet and go against the very core of Quranic teachings. Marriage is through consent only of both parties; and no 9 year old -- irrespective of her physical development -- can be mentally capable of making this decision. Hazrat Abu Baker wouldn't have made this decision on her behalf as he himself would be going against the very teachings of Islam.

TAK and Javelin are absolutely right in expressing their discomfort with this. Even though TAK needs to tone down the rhetoric as he's not aware of the complete truth. But I really don't blame him as any sane person would feel likewise. Islam is for all times and Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) was the greatest practioner of Islam. Let's not have poisonous half-baked half-truth hadeeths destroy the reputation of this great man. Remember once again, Allah never promised security for hadeeth texts -- but just Quran. Make an educated decision.

To be honest, those who want to insult Prophet Muhammad (SAW) will insult him even without a reason. I do not care what they have to say about him. I know he was not a pedophile or terrorist who walked around with bombs in his turban and that is enough for me.

Many people do not believe in God either. They ask you to prove that He exists, if you believe in Him. When you cannot, they make fun of you. A lot of people believe that religions only divide people. They only pomote hatred. But should i stop following my religion because of them?

A lot of things do not make sense to us. They seem impossible. The Night of Mi'raaj, the birth of Prophet Jesus, the miracles of Moses or Noah's Ark, it all seems impossible. Can you or anyone else explain them?

[Wazeeri]

you seemed to be suggesting that at 9 a girl was physically and emotionally mature enough for marraige

TAK

I will ask you the same question that I have asked pretty much everyone else taking objection on this topic.

How do you assess mental maturity? How would you TAK decide whether someone is mature or not to get married? What guarantee can you give to ensure us that an 18+ woman or man is mature enough to get married?

[Ladies Man]

the real fact is that this question has yet to be unanimously resolved and decided upon...some people consider this instance to be authentic, and some don't

So you are already well-aware about what you said was the half-truth; but yet you still choose to propagate it?

Doesn't this act of yours itself go against the very teachings of Islam of not spreading rumors?

[Wazeeri]

Ladies Man

Please do not bring in another dimension to this argument. Your belief or lack of in ahadith becomes meaningless when we take into account the fact that everything we know of Hadhrat Muhammad (pbuh)'s life is from Ahadith.

So if we want to reject ahadith and all the work associated with them then maybe there was no one called hadhrat Aisha(ra) who ever existed, maybe the prophet(pbuh) never got married to her.

let's not get into the ahadith debate.

[Ladies Man]

To be honest, those who want to insult Prophet Muhammad (SAW) will insult him even without a reason.

That's pretty naive of you. No one in their sane minds would dare to insult Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) if it weren't for the half-baked hadeeths most muslims so proudly attribute to his character -- including yourself.

I ask you again, what makes you give more credence to hadeeth over the Quran? Allah has promised to protect the Quran until the end of time. The Quran states: marriage is through mutual consent only of both parties. The hadeeth you believe states: Hazrat Abu Baker provided consent on Bibi Ayesha's behalf since she was so young. How the heck do you NOT see the contradiction?

What make you believe more in some random human narration over the word of Allah?

[coca-cola]

So you are already well-aware about what you said was the half-truth; but yet you still choose to propagate it?

Doesn't this act of yours itself go against the very teachings of Islam of not spreading rumors?

actually i think a good chunk of hadith are "half true". Basically it depends on who you follow, and what defines a Saheeh Hadith

[Wazeeri]

I ask you again, what makes you give more credence to hadeeth over the Quran? Allah has promised to protect the Quran until the end of time. The Quran states: marriage is through mutual consent only of both parties. The hadeeth you believe states: Hazrat Abu Baker provided consent on Bibi Ayesha's behalf since she was so young. How the heck do you NOT see the contradiction?

Ladies Man

I think it is yourself who is believing and arguing with half truths.

Hadhrat Abu Bakr (RA) accepted the marriage as the father of Hadhrat Aisha(RA) but hadhrat Aisha(RA) consented to the marriage when the nikaah took place.

There is no contradiction. No one is giving preference to the ahadith over the quran.

[TAK]

So if we want to reject ahadith and all the work associated with them then maybe there was no one called hadhrat Aisha(ra) who ever existed, maybe the prophet(pbuh) never got married to her.



i think there was a post somewhere in this thread that spoke of the marraige between the prophet and aisha being through wahi?

[Ladies Man]

Ladies Man

Please do not bring in another dimension to this argument. Your belief or lack of in ahadith becomes meaningless when we take into account the fact that everything we know of Hadhrat Muhammad (pbuh)'s life is from Ahadith.

So if we want to reject ahadith and all the work associated with them then maybe there was no one called hadhrat Aisha(ra) who ever existed, maybe the prophet(pbuh) never got married to her.

let's not get into the ahadith debate.

This character assasination of Prophet Mohammad has only been made possible through hadeeths. Quran has enough mention of the Prophet for you to take lessons from.

Your lack of belief in the Quran being the complete book leads you to look elsewhere for information that you feel is missing from your existence. If Allah chose not to mention Bibi Ayesha in His complete book then there must be a reason. Who are you to question His judgement?

[Looney]

Where do you get of all this? Did Allah mention this in the Quran? Or are you speaking on Prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) behalf?

Refrain from making up fictional narrations when you don't have your facts in order. I don't need to remind you that you are committing a very grave gunnah.

I am only sharing what i have read, learned and taught by my elders. I am not claiming to be right, am I? If you have more knowledge than me regarding this issue than I'd love to know what you think about it and provide credible proof to back up what you are saying.

[Wazeeri]

Your lack of belief in the Quran being the complete book leads you to look elsewhere for information that you feel is missing from your existence.

Information missing from my existence??

If Allah chose not to mention Bibi Ayesha in His complete book then there must be a reason. Who are you to question His judgement?

Where am I questioning Allah's judgement?

This has to be the most absurd illogical post on this thread.

[Wazeeri]

i think there was a post somewhere in this thread that spoke of the marraige between the prophet and aisha being through wahi?

TAK

it's Not in the Quran, what you are referring to is The prophet(pbuh) telling Hadhrat Aisha(RA) that he saw her in a dream. This could be due to an istikhara the Prophet(pbuh) performed. It is not part of the Quran.

Can you please see my post addressed to you and answer it. It is really important that you answer that point for this debate to move forward.

How do you assess whether someone is mature enough to get married?

[adarsh_bang]

TAK

I will ask you the same question that I have asked pretty much everyone else taking objection on this topic.

How do you assess mental maturity? How would you TAK decide whether someone is mature or not to get married? What guarantee can you give to ensure us that an 18+ woman or man is mature enough to get married?


the truth wazeeri ..(and all my other friends). is that he cannot assess someone else's mental maturity nor can he ensure mental maturity for someone else........
his intention just seems to be to poke at every comment and twist it to interpret it in his own way to make it look ... well .. ''very bad''

we dont have to reason with this man because he doesn't want to discuss intelligently.. he wants to revolt rather then debate... 300 posts later he still says the same thing while the rest of us did our research and learnt a few things he's just sat there and either typed snide remarks or has typed that same exact crap irrespective of the reasoning offered..
i can see this is going nowhere because next he will want to know how did the virgin mary ( maryam a.s) conceive ??
he might ask us how often have we seen such an occurence... and we fill up more pages and this man is not convinced.. whats the point...

[TAK]

TAK

I will ask you the same question that I have asked pretty much everyone else taking objection on this topic.

How do you assess mental maturity? How would you TAK decide whether someone is mature or not to get married? What guarantee can you give to ensure us that an 18+ woman or man is mature enough to get married?

welll first of all wazeeri it seems like the debate has been all about physical maturity thus far

and quite sensibly it has veered towards a recognition that there is more to it than being physically capable of reproduction

now if we look at the case of the maraige of the prophet to aiasha we heard in the quoted hadith that aishas hair fell out due to ilness after her marraige, that she was still playing on swings after her marraige and that when she was taken to the prophet aged 9 she took her toys with her

i don't think i need say what my conclusion is about the mental/emotional preparedness of aisha for marriage having read the above as as source of proof


now if we make a jump to this day and age - i don't think i need to emphasise the precious nature of the relationship between daughter and parent

and i think they, having witnessed the maturing both physical and emotional, are best equipped to make the judgement call on when is the appropriate time for discusion on marraige to take place, obvioulsy within the confines of consent and the legality

[Wazeeri]

he might ask us how often have we seen such an occurence... and we fill up more pages and this man is not convinced.. whats the point...

By engaging him in a debate I'm keeping him off the streets.

[Ladies Man]

Hadhrat Abu Bakr (RA) accepted the marriage as the father of Hadhrat Aisha(RA) but hadhrat Aisha(RA) consented to the marriage when the nikaah took place.


Do you really believe a 6 year old would be emotionally and mentally capable of making this judgement and giving her consent? Do you not see the folly in your argument? Or do you still believe in your own rhetoric of Bibi Ayesha being born super-human and being the only female in arabia at that time who developed both emotionally and physically at a faster rate than anyone else.

Ofcourse Bibi Ayesha gave her consent. But not before she was way into her teens. This is where our disagreement lies. You believe in a hadeeth that mentions her being 6 at the time of consent. I believe in the pure character of my beloved Prophet (PBUH) that He would have only married her after she became a woman -- naturally over time and not some instant superhuman as you have been suggesting repeatedly to prove your point.

[adarsh_bang]

just one thing tak... different people mature at different age groups..... how can you negate the fact that aisha (r.a) matured or was ''ripe'' mentally and physically at 9....
just answer this .. dont beat around the bush.. answer how do you prove that she was a kid... did you see her ??? at the time of her marriage to come to this conclusion???

[TAK]

By engaging him in a debate I'm keeping him off the streets.

:))

[TAK]

just one thing tak... different people mature at different age groups..... how can you negate the fact that aisha (r.a) matured or was ''ripe'' mentally and physically at 9....
just answer this .. dont beat around the bush.. answer how do you prove that she was a kid... did you see her ??? at the time of her marriage to come to this conclusion???


adarsh just look back at the hadith near the beginging of this topic

it tells us that when she was taken to the prophet aged 9 she took her dolls with her

[coca-cola]

Do you really believe a 6 year old would be emotionally and mentally capable of making this judgement and giving her consent? Do you not see the folly in your argument? Or do you still believe in your own rhetoric of Bibi Ayesha being born super-human and being the only female in arabia at that time who developed both emotionally and physically at a faster rate than anyone else.

Ofcourse Bibi Ayesha gave her consent. But not before she was way into her teens. This is where our disagreement lies. You believe in a hadeeth that mentions her being 6 at the time of consent. I believe in the pure character of my beloved Prophet (PBUH) that He would have only married her after she became a woman -- naturally over time and not some instant superhuman as you have been suggesting repeatedly to prove your point.

I can so tell who ever is using this account is already a member on this site :)))

[coca-cola]

adarsh just look back at the hadith near the beginging of this topic

it tells us that when she was taken to the prophet aged 9 she took her dolls with her

i dont think back then they had many resources in entertainment. i can perfectly imagine a girl around 16 'playing' with dolls, not having a TV, or any other pleasures we have today.

[adarsh_bang]

and you see if it was such a heinous act as you are claiming it out to be, then why didn't the arab of that time point it out ??? why didn't his enemies point it out to defame him??? his enemies who were thirsty for his blood and would do anything to find a fault in this man (p.b.u.h) but couldn't.... so it goes to show that aisha (r.a) was ''marriagable'' in their opinion....

[Looney]

That's pretty naive of you. No one in their sane minds would dare to insult Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) if it weren't for the half-baked hadeeths most muslims so proudly attribute to his character -- including yourself.

I ask you again, what makes you give more credence to hadeeth over the Quran? Allah has promised to protect the Quran until the end of time. The Quran states: marriage is through mutual consent only of both parties. The hadeeth you believe states: Hazrat Abu Baker provided consent on Bibi Ayesha's behalf since she was so young. How the heck do you NOT see the contradiction?

What make you believe more in some random human narration over the word of Allah?

Wazeeri has answered this post of yours quite nicely. And how am i giving more credence to Ahadeeth over the Qur'an?

And yes, Aisha, who has narrated many Ahadeeth regarding the life of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) must be one of those "random humans" according to you.

[Wazeeri]

we heard in the quoted hadith that aishas hair fell out due to ilness after her marraige,

I hope you are not inferring that this was due to the marriage. Hadhrat Aisha(RA) was living in a make shift tent for a long time post the migration and the migrants were suffering from malnutrition due to a food blockade imposed on them by the meccans.

The above are symptoms of many diseases.

and i think they, having witnessed the maturing both pgysical and emotional, are best equipped to make the judgement call on when is the appropriate time for discusion on marraige to take place

THANK YOU

Now I put it to you, that the parents and the man who were considerate enough to consider the girl too young to be married at the time of the proposal, the people who decided to wait a few years should be reliable enough for us to be happy with their better judgement.

As for marriage talks being an issue I will once again have to bring out the "different times" argument. It was a good practice to have your children's marriages arranged as early as to make sure they get into the right homes. Hadhrat Aisha(RA) was already arranged to marry into a non-muslims family, the family which refused to go through with marriage because hadhrat abu bakr(ra) had converted to islam.

[Ladies Man]

I am only sharing what i have read, learned and taught by my elders. I am not claiming to be right, am I? If you have more knowledge than me regarding this issue than I'd love to know what you think about it and provide credible proof to back up what you are saying.

You want proof? I have the best book of facts to back me up: The Holy Quran.

Here's what you do. Take everything that is in it and keep it. Whatever is not in there don't bother. Allah through His infinite wisdom chose to keep out certain parts for your own good. It IS the complete book. You don't need to look elsewhere.

Tell your elders what you learned today as well. It's still not too late for them to change their ways. Remember...Allah has promised security for Quran until eternity. You can't go wrong.

[coca-cola]

and you see if it was such a heinous act as you are claiming it out to be, then why didn't the arab of that time point it out ??? why didn't his enemies point it out to defame him??? his enemies who were thirsty for his blood and would do anything to find a fault in this man (p.b.u.h) but couldn't.... so it goes to show that aisha (r.a) was ''marriagable'' in their opinion....

i think this has to be one of the most engaging posts thusforth. :14:

not only that, but what about the rest of the world! surely the marriage of the muslim prophet wuld not go unnoticed!

[Wazeeri]

Do you really believe a 6 year old would be emotionally and mentally capable of making this judgement and giving her consent? Do you not see the folly in your argument?

No and that is where the "folly" is in your argument.

Hadhrat Abu bakr accepted the proposal when she may have been 6. Her consent was received when she performed the nikaah possibly in her teens.

Or do you still believe in your own rhetoric of Bibi Ayesha being born super-human and being the only female in arabia at that time who developed both emotionally and physically at a faster rate than anyone else.


My rhetoric?
Care to show me where I posted this rhetoric?

[coca-cola]

You want proof? I have the best book of facts to back me up: The Holy Quran.

Here's what you do. Take everything that is in it and keep it. Whatever is not in there don't bother. Allah through His infinite wisdom chose to keep out certain parts for your own good. It IS the complete book. You don't need to look elsewhere.

Tell your elders what you learned today as well. It's still not too late for them to change their ways. Remember...Allah has promised security for Quran until eternity. You can't go wrong.

going by your views on hadith, this debate should not be taking place in the first place...

our religion is based just as much on hadith as it is the quran. these things go hand in hand. if you ignore hadith then you only have half the knowledge

[Wazeeri]

Take everything that is in it and keep it. Whatever is not in there don't bother.

So there was no henry VIII, President Obama, Caesar, Dinosaurs, Gautum Budh, Gengjis Khan? No meteor strike on earth?????

Quran contains all historical facts???

[Ladies Man]

Wazeeri has answered this post of yours quite nicely.


Like where? I haven't seen much from him except regurgitating the fact that marrying 6 years old was commonplace at "that time" BUT it shouldn't be followed now as shariah "allows" islamic laws to change over time. Not much substance there.


And yes, Aisha, who has narrated many Ahadeeth regarding the life of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) must be one of those "random humans" according to you.

Don't be disrespectful. I would never utter such a thing for a revered personality. I am not going to put words in your mouth like you did but let me ask you something: what proof do you have that the words being quoted on Bibi Ayesha's behalf were recited by her in person? Does Quran mention anything she said or did?

[TAK]

Care to show me where I posted this rhetoric?

you have asserted repeatedly that aisha was ready for marriage wazeeri

[adarsh_bang]

you would agree that your observation of the holy prophet is not even half of how closely his enemies would have observed him... not even half .. again.. of how closely his noble companions would have observed him?? not because your observational skills are in question but simply because you did not live with him ( on his side or on his enemies side) you are not from that era........ correct???

now his companions dont find his behavior ''lecherous'' neither do his enemies !!!! who observe him much more then you... who want to find faults with him with almost infinite desperation........ but didn't... at their best they have called him a magician... but even at the peak of their hatred towards him they dint make the allegations that were made on this forum here....

this convinces me that he was a man of noble conduct.... doesnt it convince you ??

[Ladies Man]

if you ignore hadith then you only have half the knowledge

Show me where in the Quran Allah said this and I will convert to your way of life.

[Ladies Man]

Hadhrat Abu bakr accepted the proposal when she may have been 6. Her consent was received when she performed the nikaah possibly in her teens.


Dude!!!! what the hell
why are we both arguing?!?!? you and I are on the same side

[TAK]

it's been emotional

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/5943/vinniejones.jpg

good night and god bless

[Ladies Man]

[/IMG]

good night and god bless


You too bro...and take it easy :D

[On_the_up]

Show me where in the Quran Allah said this and I will convert to your way of life.
Does the Quran state how to pray salaat?

Quran does state that our beloved prophet PBUH is rahmatul lil alamin (i.e. mercy to the mankind). In other words follow his example and you wont go wrong. His whole life is an example to us muslims, the sunnah is something we should be looking to make a habit.

This is where the hadiths come in. The problem as we are all aware is deciding which hadith are shahih and which are weak, but to simply say hadiths aren't important isn't true IMHO as they are our link to the sunnah of the prophet PBUH.

[Looney]

You want proof? I have the best book of facts to back me up: The Holy Quran.

Here's what you do. Take everything that is in it and keep it. Whatever is not in there don't bother. Allah through His infinite wisdom chose to keep out certain parts for your own good. It IS the complete book. You don't need to look elsewhere.

Tell your elders what you learned today as well. It's still not too late for them to change their ways. Remember...Allah has promised security for Quran until eternity. You can't go wrong.

So i am guessing you don't pray either since how we should pray was also narrated to us through Ahadeeth?

[coca-cola]

Show me where in the Quran Allah said this and I will convert to your way of life.
The quran also doesn't mention the 4 caliphs, the twele shia imams, the apocalapse senario (in as much detail), the resurrection of Imam Mahdi.

does this mean it wont happen?

[coca-cola]

So i am guessing you don't pray either since how we should pray was also narrated to us through Ahadeeth?

exactly.

[coca-cola]

:) you would agree that your observation of the holy prophet is not even half of how closely his enemies would have observed him... not even half .. again.. of how closely his noble companions would have observed him?? not because your observational skills are in question but simply because you did not live with him ( on his side or on his enemies side) you are not from that era........ correct???

now his companions dont find his behavior ''lecherous'' neither do his enemies !!!! who observe him much more then you... who want to find faults with him with almost infinite desperation........ but didn't... at their best they have called him a magician... but even at the peak of their hatred towards him they dint make the allegations that were made on this forum here....

this convinces me that he was a man of noble conduct.... doesnt it convince you ??

have you noticed how TAK wont reply to these posts?

Allah has clearly stated that some people are deaf, blind and completely ignorant.

a clear cut example.

[Amir]

we have also heard the marriage was at abu bakr's suggestion?

Not sure, haven't heard about that. I remember Anwar Awlaki mentioning that it was revealed in a dream to him. Anwar Awlaki, has studied the prophet intensely and has a great 10+ CD set on the Seerah of the Prophet (SAW). I am sure if you google it, you will find it.

I highly recommend you listen to it. Maybe it can provide you with the explanation you look for. He is much more of an expert that anyone on this board and he does discuss the subject and the reasons as to why the Prophet (SAW) married Aisha (RA).

[coca-cola]

the Shi'ites beleive Aisha (a.s) was 18 at the time of marriage.

[adarsh_bang]

@ amir.. thanks for the info amir ...
@ others... come on guys ladies man is on our side... :)

[adarsh_bang]

The quran also doesn't mention the 4 caliphs, the twele shia imams, the apocalapse senario (in as much detail), the resurrection of Imam Mahdi.

does this mean it wont happen?
:14: :14:

[adarsh_bang]

:)

have you noticed how TAK wont reply to these posts?

Allah has clearly stated that some people are deaf, blind and completely ignorant.

a clear cut example.


he hasn't replied to many such posts coca cola :) come on guys :) its going good :) .... and tak... come on dude... we know you have agreed with us that muhammad (s.a.w) was a spotless personality ... lets all read a durood for his noble rooh :)

allahumma salli ala sayyidina muhammadin wa ala alihi sayyidina muhammadim wa barik wasallim

[Javelin]

actually i think a good chunk of hadith are "half true". Basically it depends on who you follow, and what defines a Saheeh HadithBrings it back to the comment I posted much much earlier about 'self-appointed Scholars' creating the situation/mess we Muslims find ourselves in today.

[adarsh_bang]

Brings it back to the comment I posted much much earlier about 'self-appointed Scholars' creating the situation/mess we Muslims find ourselves in today.


simple solution is that every muslim should demand for and believe only the saheehaen.... i suggest all muslims download the ebooks of bukhari and muslim shariff ... then we wont have to be in doubt right ??

[deathstreak]

What does the barrier of 16 mean? What does the barrier of 15, 14, 13 mean? Absolutely nothing. The whole point of setting the barrier was because it seemed like the age when most girls reach the age of puberty.The essential criteria was when a girl was no longer a girl but a woman. The law was set because it was easy to police and it provided a good yardstick to ensure that every girl who was married had reached puberty.



Isn't the legal age tied more to mental maturity rather than physical maturity?

Actually I agree with the UN on this. Child marriage in any country would be under the age at which the boy/girl involved is legally considered an adult.

Other than that i think it basically comes down to the one question which Tak is skirting against.

Agreeing that the society 1400 years ago considered marriage at the age of 9 acceptable, does it mean that the current laws are flawed.

Can both be correct at the same time?
Both can be correct at the same time.
If you look at the age spans at that time compared to today.
40 was the average age people lived to then, today it is nearly 76-80
So if you take it compared to life spans everything is just doubled.

PLUS have to agree with Momo on this.
You can't judge the society 1500 years back based on the values of the society you live in.
In fact you cant even judge the values of the society of different countries in this century alone.

[deathstreak]

you would agree that your observation of the holy prophet is not even half of how closely his enemies would have observed him... not even half .. again.. of how closely his noble companions would have observed him?? not because your observational skills are in question but simply because you did not live with him ( on his side or on his enemies side) you are not from that era........ correct???

now his companions dont find his behavior ''lecherous'' neither do his enemies !!!! who observe him much more then you... who want to find faults with him with almost infinite desperation........ but didn't... at their best they have called him a magician... but even at the peak of their hatred towards him they dint make the allegations that were made on this forum here....

this convinces me that he was a man of noble conduct.... doesnt it convince you ??

Now ill argue for the other side :P
this only means that the conduct then was acceptable.
However for a spotless reputation over all the life of mankind does one have to be acceptable to all morals of all societies?

What does SAW stand for? Is it illegal for people of other religions to use? i am only asking this because this is a pseudo religious website. and how are people from other religions meant to address according to you?

[adarsh_bang]

Now ill argue for the other side :P
this only means that the conduct then was acceptable.
However for a spotless reputation over all the life of mankind does one have to be acceptable to all morals of all societies?

What does SAW stand for? Is it illegal for people of other religions to use? i am only asking this because this is a pseudo religious website. and how are people from other religions meant to address according to you?

rasoolullah(Pbuh) himself said that with time progressing deen will take a dip and be deeni will increase close to the time of qiyamah...S.A.W stands for the ideal human... with compassion mercy etc... and always will... only thing is that with time the concept of ideal human will loose popularity and therefore people might consider him as '' not of their kind'' and hence point fingers at him ( na uzo billah)
its not like till qiyamah huzoor's name and practices will remain shining examples... people will mostly misquote him etc debates such as these will perhaps increase until a point of time when deen will be so less that the abyssinians will come forward and destroy holy kaaba... qiyamah will occur then
so its a downhill curve from here

[Ladies Man]

So i am guessing you don't pray either since how we should pray was also narrated to us through Ahadeeth?

You can tell of a closed mind like yours -- and I have seen plenty of such -- when the only retort you can come up with in defending half-truth hadeeths is about salaat not described in The Quran.

Tell me something: how many people around you do you know that learned salaat through hadeeths? I am 32, I have lived in 8 different countries spanning 4 continents and to this day I have not come across one muslim male/female who looked up hadeeth texts as instruction manuals for salaat. You show me one individual that did just that and I will convert to your way of life and closed minded thinking.

You are living in a dangerous state of mind. Allah wrote you a book, gave it to you through His last Prophet (PBUH) and asked you to stick to it. You, on the other hand , chose other complementary books written by other self-annointed flawed humans that in part contradict teachings of The Quran both directly and indirectly. Now bear in mind that these books were never guaranteed security by Allah nor prescibed by the Prophet (PBUH) Himself.

Now you tell me who is in the wrong here?

[zimmz]

Ladies Man, in very same book Allah said follow the Prophet's words and deeds. How would you interpret this? Surely there are the aspects of Islam (like Namaz obviously) which can only be learned through Hadith which are essentially written form of Prophets ways/words/deeds/actions etc. It is all good that one should research the authenticity of hadeeths but this doesn't mean you label all hadeeth to be 'no go' sources for knowledge.

In your first para are you suggesting that since we all learn from our parents or imam in mosque therefore there can't be a written method any where in form of hadeeth? Think about it if every one was to follow what their parents would have told them then there would have been millions of different way to offer prayer evolved over 1400 years time. It was written hadeeth that kept the check n balance. People can always verify from hadeeth the method of prayer whenever they want along with asking different scholars who essentially rely on hadeeth as well.

The topic of this thread was age of Hazrat Aisha (ra) for which you won't find any thing in Quran. Question hadeeth all you want but do not advise others to just 'stick with Quran' as an order of Allah. It is like associating wrong statements to Allah which in itself is kind of sin.

[Wazeeri]

you have asserted repeatedly that aisha was ready for marriage wazeeri

And how does that make her a super woman? which I am supposed to have clained?

[Wazeeri]

Ladies Man

We are arguing despite being on the same side because you have taken the super apologist route to the argument.

Everyone else

Please refrain from allowing this thread to go into a hadith vs quran only debate just because of one man. That's not the topic of the debate.

[Wazeeri]

Isn't the legal age tied more to mental maturity rather than physical maturity?

No that would be ideal but the legal age seems tied to the physical maturity, as mental maturity is too difficult to ascertain. The average age of puberty in England has been 16.5 (dropping towards 16 overtime).


Agreeing that the society 1400 years ago considered marriage at the age of 9 acceptable, does it mean that the current laws are flawed.
Can both be correct at the same time?
Both can be correct at the same time.

No both cannot be correct at the same time. One is correct for an age when life spans are short and infant mortality is high because then it is a necessity.

It is correct to give the complete responsibility of assessing maturity of a girl to the parents when the state is not powerful, technologically advanced enough and economically stable enough to take up this responsibility.

However when a state can police this as our state and most states in the world can at the moment, we should police it. The age barrier is the most practical solution we have at the moment hence it is the correct procedure to apply for our times.

[Infinitee786]

Please watch this video. It adresses many of the issues raised.

The brother speaking is Yusuf Estes who converted from christianity. He is very well versed in Islam and gives a good explanation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC3zJLvFnkk

I couldnt find the full video. it reaches the max upload time limt of about 10 mins and has been cut-off. If i find the rest of the video i will post a link

[coca-cola]

Ladies Man, in very same book Allah said follow the Prophet's words and deeds. How would you interpret this? Surely there are the aspects of Islam (like Namaz obviously) which can only be learned through Hadith which are essentially written form of Prophets ways/words/deeds/actions etc. It is all good that one should research the authenticity of hadeeths but this doesn't mean you label all hadeeth to be 'no go' sources for knowledge.

In your first para are you suggesting that since we all learn from our parents or imam in mosque therefore there can't be a written method any where in form of hadeeth? Think about it if every one was to follow what their parents would have told them then there would have been millions of different way to offer prayer evolved over 1400 years time. It was written hadeeth that kept the check n balance. People can always verify from hadeeth the method of prayer whenever they want along with asking different scholars who essentially rely on hadeeth as well.

The topic of this thread was age of Hazrat Aisha (ra) for which you won't find any thing in Quran. Question hadeeth all you want but do not advise others to just 'stick with Quran' as an order of Allah. It is like associating wrong statements to Allah which in itself is kind of sin.


a major sin!

[AZ]

So you are already well-aware about what you said was the half-truth; but yet you still choose to propagate it?

Doesn't this act of yours itself go against the very teachings of Islam of not spreading rumors?

what?! I am simply pointing out the fact that there still isn't a singular account of the facts that most scholars and researchers fully agree upon...and for the record, my personal opinion is that her age at in quite irrelevant

[DHONI183]

Nine or not, 10 or not, 14 or not, marrying a young girl doesn´t make our Prophet a pedophile ("I seek Allah´s forgiveness") as there are many examples in religious history (judeo-christian included) of girls being married in age such as 12, 13 or 15. In case of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم), the age of rest of his wives (رضي الله أنهم) should be borne in mind to determine his intentions.

All in all, arguments, discussions, debates should be carried but with an element of respect to all global religions of the world.

Peace:)!

[adarsh_bang]

Nine or not, 10 or not, 14 or not, marrying a young girl doesn´t make our Prophet a pedophile ("I seek Allah´s forgiveness") as there are many examples in religious history (judeo-christian included) of girls being married in age such as 12, 13 or 15. In case of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم), the age of rest of his wives (رضي الله أنهم) should be borne in mind to determine his intentions.

All in all, arguments, discussions, debates should be carried but with an element of respect to all global religions of the world.

Peace:)!
very very good point.... also we need to keep in mind the ''adab'' for the holy prophet (s.a.w) while discussing these things.... he is the dearest to ALLAH and i know that all my muslim brothers know that.....

[Ladies Man]

The quran also doesn't mention the 4 caliphs, the twele shia imams, the apocalapse senario (in as much detail), the resurrection of Imam Mahdi.

does this mean it wont happen?

Wait on. Did you just counter-question my question here because you couldn't back up your rather outrageous statement of "if you ignore hadith then you only have half the knowledge" ?

If neither Allah nor Prophet (PBUH) stated what you did then who gives you the authority to speak on their behalf?

Moreover, if Allah chose not to list certain things in Quran than only His infinite wisdom can answer this query of yours. Unlike you I am unworthy to speak on Allah's behalf. There must be a reason, which only He is aware of. Try talking to him without cloaking your judgement with half-baked hadeeths that He never professed to protect.

[Ladies Man]

Ladies Man, in very same book Allah said follow the Prophet's words and deeds. How would you interpret this?

Show me one quote from Allah that patronizes one hadeeth book or the other and makes it mandatory to follow a particular school of thought. Last I recall, Allah has only mentioned following Quran and just Quran. You must've another exclusive of copy of Quran that supports your argument. Please do share Allah's specific opinion on this.

People can always verify from hadeeth the method of prayer whenever they want

When was the last time anyone you know ever did just that? An honest answer would be appreciated.

Question hadeeth all you want but do not advise others to just 'stick with Quran' as an order of Allah. It is like associating wrong statements to Allah which in itself is kind of sin.

How is your act of professing others to follow hadeeth books not a sin, when neither Allah nor Prophet Mohammad have ever commanded such from followers. The Quran has ample mention of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) to take lessons from. Are you implying that Quran by itself is not a complete book even though Allah has explicity mentioned this? What is so out of reach of Quran that you need to reach out to other man-made books, which Allah never promised to protect and keep?

[coca-cola]

Wait on. Did you just counter-question my question here because you couldn't back up your rather outrageous statement of "if you ignore hadith then you only have half the knowledge" ?

If neither Allah nor Prophet (PBUH) stated what you did then who gives you the authority to speak on their behalf?

Moreover, if Allah chose not to list certain things in Quran than only His infinite wisdom can answer this query of yours. Unlike you I am unworthy to speak on Allah's behalf. There must be a reason, which only He is aware of. Try talking to him without cloaking your judgement with half-baked hadeeths that He never professed to protect.

what the hell is wrong with you! i have said this a million times and other members as well that in the quran it clearly says listen to the prophet, and the prophets statements are what a hadeeth is. :pissed:

[coca-cola]

Show me one quote from Allah that patronizes one hadeeth book or the other and makes it mandatory to follow a particular school of thought. Last I recall, Allah has only mentioned following Quran and just Quran. You must've another exclusive of copy of Quran that supports your argument. Please do share Allah's specific opinion on this.



When was the last time anyone you know ever did just that? An honest answer would be appreciated.



How is your act of professing others to follow hadeeth books not a sin, when neither Allah nor Prophet Mohammad have ever commanded such from followers. The Quran has ample mention of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) to take lessons from. Are you implying that Quran by itself is not a complete book even though Allah has explicity mentioned this? What is so out of reach of Quran that you need to reach out to other man-made books, which Allah never promised to protect and keep?

So we shouldn't listen to the prophets words. OKAY everybody. Ignore the prophet. Lets just follow the quran. The prophets words mean nothing to us even if the quran tells us to listen to his words. obviously ladies man is right and the quran is wrong.

(esthaghfrulla)

[adarsh_bang]

Wait on. Did you just counter-question my question here because you couldn't back up your rather outrageous statement of "if you ignore hadith then you only have half the knowledge" ?

If neither Allah nor Prophet (PBUH) stated what you did then who gives you the authority to speak on their behalf?

Moreover, if Allah chose not to list certain things in Quran than only His infinite wisdom can answer this query of yours. Unlike you I am unworthy to speak on Allah's behalf. There must be a reason, which only He is aware of. Try talking to him without cloaking your judgement with half-baked hadeeths that He never professed to protect.

why do we have to take those words so literally bro ?? why cant we take them as...
ahadeeth are very important... along with quran because they teach the intricate details about our erligion and are the words from the noble one (pbuh) ???
we surely can take it that way cant we ???
would serve us good

[Ladies Man]

Ladies Man

We are arguing despite being on the same side because you have taken the super apologist route to the argument.

Everyone else

Please refrain from allowing this thread to go into a hadith vs quran only debate just because of one man. That's not the topic of the debate.

What are you on about? This subject matter of Bibi Ayesha specifically stems from flawed hadeeths that should've never made it to mainstream muslim culture. If it weren't for flawed hadeeths our beloved Prophet (PBUH) would have never been perceived as a monster for consummating marriage with a 9 year old, which is a complete lie to begin with.

How can you be so disconnected with your own self? You yourself don't believe in this specific hadeeth and hold reservations against it. But you still choose to believe other hadeeths 'cuz who knows there might be a possibility of some of them turning out to be true.

Quranic texts holds no such doubts. You know why? 'cuz Allah has promised to protect it until eternity. Quran places our beloved Prophet (PBUH) on the highest pedestal possible. Don't you reckon if it were just the Quran we were following any sane person would even have a remote reason to mud-sling our Prophet (PBUH)? No sirrie bob!

[Momo]

I have deleted and edited a few posts. Please keep it civil, gents.

[Momo]

Okay, here's the thing:

Any more personal attacks, or any more calculated mention of the word pedophilia, and the poster will be asked to take a rest.

I hope this is clear.

[nabeel_1990]

Okay, here's the thing:

Any more personal attacks, or any more calculated mention of the word pedophilia, and the poster will be asked to take a rest.

I hope this is clear.

its clear

[Ladies Man]

So we shouldn't listen to the prophets words. OKAY everybody. Ignore the prophet.



Don't be disrespectful to our Holy Prophet (PBUH) with such uncalled-for emotional outbursts. I never implied such a thing. Prophet's actions and deeds are sufficiently documented in The Quran.

I take comfort in the fact that I am following Prophet's (PBUH) noble actions as recorded by Allah Himself; and not some self-annointed human's flawed recollection of events that Allah never promised to keep.

I hope you will not ever again use Prophet's (PBUH) noble stature as a tool to gain that edge in an argument.

[adarsh_bang]

So we shouldn't listen to the prophets words. OKAY everybody. Ignore the prophet. Lets just follow the quran. The prophets words mean nothing to us even if the quran tells us to listen to his words. obviously ladies man is right and the quran is wrong.

(esthaghfrulla)

take it easy brother coke..... where is the respect ??? for ALLAH'S best creation... i understand your point of view of giving importance to ahadeeth.. also understand that ladies man isn't wrong either... all he says is that few ahadeeth qre quoted wrongly with untrustworthy traditions.... all you got to reoly is that you believe in al quran and saheeh ahadith... which lm also agree's on... no conflict really...

this post is for you too l man....

[coca-cola]

Don't be disrespectful to our Holy Prophet (PBUH) with such uncalled-for emotional outbursts. I never implied such a thing. Prophet's actions and deeds are sufficiently documented in The Quran.

I take comfort in the fact that I am following Prophet's (PBUH) noble actions as recorded by Allah Himself; and not some self-annointed human's flawed recollection of events that Allah never promised to keep.

I hope you will not ever again use Prophet's (PBUH) noble stature as a tool to gain that edge in an argument.

How low can you go? taking my statements out of context? thats bloody cheap.

As far as hadeeth go, i do not believe this to be true myself. I am a Shi'ite and we beleive aisha was atleast 18.

As far as your view on hadeeth goes, you never mentioned which hadeeth yu were talking about. and the way it was written anybody would assume you meant hadeeth in general. i think you should have cleared that up.

[Javelin]

I have one very simple question for those who are more expert on the subject:

Roughly, in general, at what point were the various Hadeeth put into a written form?
During The Prophets (pbuh) lifetime?
X,Y,Z years after his death?

The answer to this will go a long way to resolving the issues being discussed.

[zimmz]

Show me one quote from Allah that patronizes one hadeeth book or the other and makes it mandatory to follow a particular school of thought.

You really think that specific books and scholars names should be mentioned in Quran, in order to follow them? :13:


Last I recall, Allah has only mentioned following Quran and just Quran. You must've another exclusive of copy of Quran that supports your argument. Please do share Allah's specific opinion on this.


Please read the Quran again and again instead of depending/recalling the last time you read it. It'll improve your basic understanding of Allah's teachings.

For your convenience:

"Indeed a noble model you have in Allah's Messenger..." [33:21]

Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way. [24:54]

". . . And let those who oppose the Messenger's commandment beware, lest some fitnah (trial, affliction, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them." [24 : 63]

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission." [4 : 65]

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination." [4:59]

"And we did not make the Qiblah upon which you were (Bayt al- Maqdis) but so that we may distinguish who follows the Rasul from he who turn on his heels." [2:143]

In the above verse, a reference of the previous order to face Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem) is given. The express order is no where in the Quran. It is thus clear, that there are orders given to Prophets(pbuh) which are not recorded in the Quran.

Now what did you learned from these verses? Obey Allah's orders (in form of Quran) and obey Prophet (pbuh) orders (which can only be in form of Sunnah/hadith). If it was only to be Quran then why Allah mentioned "and Prophet" in all these verses?

Since you so insisted on providing you the verses like above, can you please now refer me to a verse where Allah said "only follow Quran"?


When was the last time anyone you know ever did just that? An honest answer would be appreciated.


I did it myself at least once. I check the hadiths and observe different methods of praying just to improve my knowledge and to see if I am doing any thing wrong or if my parents missed some aspect of prayer.

I would like ask you one thing when you...

- imply that almost all people do not learn the praying method from hadith.
- say they learn it from their parents/teachers.
- say Allah did not promise to protect hadith as they are written by human.
- which imply that praying method can only be learn from parents/teachers.
- parents and teachers are human as well.
- Allah did not promise to protect a method which is being passed on generation by generation during last 1400 years.

how can you be sure or how can you verify if the praying method you follow is correct one?

[Zechariah]

I have one very simple question for those who are more expert on the subject:

Roughly, in general, at what point were the various Hadeeth put into a written form?
During The Prophets (pbuh) lifetime?
X,Y,Z years after his death?

The answer to this will go a long way to resolving the issues being discussed.


Imam Bukhari collected about 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths, lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected .

Imam Muslim collected 300,000 hadiths and only accepted 4000 of them, and refused about 296,000 . that is almost 99% of these collected hadiths .

Imam Bukhari was born 200 years later Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) passing.

Imam Bukhari did a great thing to discard the fabricated ones otherwise there would be massive corruption in Islam today.

[Ladies Man]

You really think that specific books and scholars names should be mentioned in Quran, in order to follow them? :13:


So Allah left it to our devices to choose the book of our preference of self-annointed scholars to provide us with guidance that you imply is missing from The Quran. Which begs the question: what is your personal opinion on Quran being the complete book? Your honest yes/no answer on this will validate if this argument is worthy enough to proceed.

[Javelin]

Imam Bukhari collected about 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths, lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected Assuming he spent 50 years of his life collecting and collating them, that's just under 33 per day, for every day of those 50 years.
And then he had to research them, and decide which were fabrications and which were true, even though they had been passed down for 200 years after the Prophets (pbuh) passing via word of mouth only.
All before the advent of modern technologies..Imam Muslim collected 300,000 hadiths and only accepted 4000 of them, and refused about 296,000 . that is almost 99% of these collected hadiths .

Imam Bukhari was born 200 years later Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) passing.

Imam Bukhari did a great thing to discard the fabricated ones otherwise there would be massive corruption in Islam today.Imam Muslim performed a similar exercise, again centuries after the Prophets (pbuh) passing.


Hmmmmmmm........???? And The Prophets (pbuh) (alleged) practices and actions are based upon this? (and which would be considered questionable if repeated in todays world)?:13:

Wow!

Nothing more to say. :X

[Waq]

Wow, I created this thread a few days ago and have returned to find it is now a fascinating debate with many different points of view.

First things first for all westerners, regardless of what is in this thread, don't marry a 9 year old and consummate the marriage. You will find yourself up in the dock facing a jury!!! I am serious.

I am still uncertain on this aspect of the Prophet Muhammed's life, despite reading all the posts. I don't accept that certain things in Islam were acceptable 1500 years ago and not now. If this is the case than it will strongly test my faith.

The above makes me think that it is easy to pick and choose what you want from Islam and use that excuse. I am also dismayed that the age of Hazrat Ayesha is inconclusive and makes me want to question other aspects of Hadeeth. Was she 9 or closer to 18?

I am mindful that there are now man made laws where a human being has decided that you cannot have sexual relations with somebody below a certain age. I am sure that puberty is a sign of growing up but not fully convinced if it is a sign for being ready for sexual activity or marriage.

This thread has certainly helped to increase my knowledge of Islam and I am thankful for it. I am still in a position where if the age of Hazrat Ayesha was close to 9 years of age than I am still finding it hard to accept regardless of their being no method to gauge mental and physical readiness of marriage and intimate relations.

I do not doubt Islam, Allah's message and I believe in the Prophet Mohammed. This can only lead to me being cynical towards Hadeeths.

The original post by myself has a daily mail article of a 12 year old dying whilst in child birth labour. If I cannot digest it than I have no hope of defending Islam to my non muslim acquaintances and friends.

In summary, if it was morally acceptable 1500 years ago than it should be the case now. I was under the impression that everything done by our Prophet should be replicated and is Sunnah. I need assistance to help my faith and if there is an argument on Hazrat Ayesha's age than I can fully understand why Islam has lead confusion in the modern day which unfortunately leads to brothers slaying each other.

[zimmz]

So Allah left it to our devices to choose the book of our preference of self-annointed scholars to provide us with guidance that you imply is missing from The Quran. Which begs the question: what is your personal opinion on Quran being the complete book? Your honest yes/no answer on this will validate if this argument is worthy enough to proceed.

How conveniently you ignored rest of my post :13:

You are trying to prolong this debate although had you tried to read and understand the verses you would have found the answers for many of your questions. Now if you believe all the hadiths are cooked-up by some random person then more power to you. It is clear that you do not understand the concept of sunnah/hadith and your posts imply that you do not value the practical life of Prophet(pbuh) which was more or less detailed explanation of the Quran.

Despite the request from Wazeeri, the thread is already derailed long way just because of you dragging it to another direction. Please start a new topic if you want to understand the basics of sunnah and hadith.

[zimmz]

In summary, if it was morally acceptable 1500 years ago than it should be the case now. I was under the impression that everything done by our Prophet should be replicated and is Sunnah.

Your definition of 'Sunnah' needs bit of an update.

Sunnah is an Arabic word that means habit, usual practice. I am sure you know what does habit means? Still...Habits are routines of behavior that are repeated regularly (in other words usual practice).

[Ladies Man]

How conveniently you ignored rest of my post :13:

You are trying to prolong this debate although had you tried to read and understand the verses you would have found the answers for many of your questions. Now if you believe all the hadiths are cooked-up by some random person then more power to you. It is clear that you do not understand the concept of sunnah/hadith and your posts imply that you do not value the practical life of Prophet(pbuh) which was more or less detailed explanation of the Quran.

Despite the request from Wazeeri, the thread is already derailed long way just because of you dragging it to another direction. Please start a new topic if you want to understand the basics of sunnah and hadith.

Woah buddy...enough with the uncalled-for allegations!

Why couldn't you simply respond to my query instead of launching into a tirade of baseless character assasination of mine? You've been forever implying that Quran doesn't have complete information for which you have to look up other texts -- man-made that are -- for further guidance. What's stopping you from completely endorsing this view of yours? Don't cloak yourself behind long-winded and condescending words towards me -- out with it already.

Moreover, you allege that I "do not value the practical life of Prophet(pbuh)". Where have I implied or said such a thing? Here's my view again for your convenience; and dont make me repeat this again: The Quran has sufficient mention of Prophet's actions and deeds (sunnah), which is what needs to be followed as prescribed, recorded and protected by Allah. Keyphrase here being "recorded and protected by Allah" and not some flawed human's recollection of events that Allah never professed to keep nor commanded to follow. If Allah chose not to list certain things in The Quran then only His infinite wisdom can answer this. We are always welcome to talk to him directly through prayer and meditation to get all worldly answers. No flawed human scholar is worthy enough nor capable to act as a mediator between us two.

If you cannot back up your view of following man-made hadeeth books with quotations from Allah Himself then at the least keep quiet; and not indulge yourself in attacks for personal satisfaction. That only vilifies you and your POV further.

[Ladies Man]

Assuming he spent 50 years of his life collecting and collating them, that's just under 33 per day, for every day of those 50 years.
And then he had to research them, and decide which were fabrications and which were true, even though they had been passed down for 200 years after the Prophets (pbuh) passing via word of mouth only.
All before the advent of modern technologies..Imam Muslim performed a similar exercise, again centuries after the Prophets (pbuh) passing.


Hmmmmmmm........???? And The Prophets (pbuh) (alleged) practices and actions are based upon this? (and which would be considered questionable if repeated in todays world)?:13:

Wow

Nothing more to say. :X

Brilliant summation there. This is EXACTLY what I don't get: this fascination of most muslims to follow man-made texts of recollection of events, which have been proven to be flawed for the most part. Words of these self-anointed imams hold more sway to the masses over the word of God. No wonder marrying and consummating marriages with underage girls is still considered legit by even some "educated" posters here.

It makes me even more furious that I, as a muslim, am clubbed together with such zealots. I wish we can have them tagged or labelled differently. There must be a way.

[Ladies Man]

Wow, I created this thread a few days ago and have returned to find it is now a fascinating debate with many different points of view.

I am glad you feel this way. Your original post was an eye-opener of sorts for "muslim" followers of man-made books to start questioning their authencity.


I am still uncertain on this aspect of the Prophet Muhammed's life, despite reading all the posts. I don't accept that certain things in Islam were acceptable 1500 years ago and not now. If this is the case than it will strongly test my faith.


Islam is indeed for all times; and our beloved Prophet (PBUH) was the greatest practitioner of this deen. He would've never said or committed anything that would go against the norms of a civil code until eternity. It's paramount that you keep faith in the pure soul and nature of our Prophet (PBUH). It's about time we protect his character from both flawed texts attributed to him; as well as the 'muslims" who consider such flawed texts legit.

[DHONI183]

very very good point.... also we need to keep in mind the ''adab'' for the holy prophet (s.a.w) while discussing these things.... he is the dearest to ALLAH and i know that all my muslim brothers know that.....

Adarsh, religious debates should only be carried if you have respect for those who disagree to your point of view, being a Muslim or not becomes a little irrelevant. It´s for all human-beings.

Peace:)!

[TAK]

if a girl becomes a woman aged 9 and is physically and emotionally ready for marraige at that age as one poster has suggested

and given that a girls reach pubety a little before boys,

what would be the standpoint on a boy age 10 marrying a woman in her 50's

[Poison]

if a girl becomes a woman aged 9 and is physically and emotionally ready for marraige at that age as one poster has suggested

and given that a girls reach pubety a little before boys,

what would be the standpoint on a boy age 10 marrying a woman in her 50's

You and everyone both know that girls age WELL before boys.

And if the standpoint is fine for the girl at 9, I dont see why people in this thread would be against the scenario you've put forward.

[TAK]

You and everyone both know that girls age WELL before boys.

And if the standpoint is fine for the girl at 9, I dont see why people in this thread would be against the scenario you've put forward.


well ok lets say eleven then or 12

give the lad a full 2/3 full years to catch up to his female counterpart in reacjing puberty...

[Ladies Man]

Have you lads gone completely bonkers?

How is a 10 or a 12 year old boy mentally and emotionally capable of giving his consent to marry a 50+ old woman? This is the foremost requirement for a marriage as dictated by The Quran. Leave aside the physical aspects for a second as it doesn't even hold water in this context.

[TAK]

Have you lads gone completely bonkers?

How is a 10 or a 12 year old boy mentally and emotionally capable of giving his consent to marry a 50+ old woman? This is the foremost requirement for a marriage as dictated by The Quran. Leave aside the physical aspects for a second as it doesn't even hold water in this context.

whats good for the goose...

or, in this case is it a case of what is good for the gander....

[Javelin]

well ok lets say eleven then or 12

give the lad a full 2/3 full years to catch up to his female counterpart in reacjing puberty...At least in the other scenario, the married couple could become joint parents, whereas IF this was permissable, even that excuse goes out of the window (-without modern technology tweaking a few things here and there that is)

Anyway, at the rate technology is advancing, coupled with the way society is utilising these new medical technologies, in a few hundred years or so, questions such as above might simply become irrelevent anyway

We already have, through medical technologies,

Mothers giving birth to their daughters children

Total strangers acting as incubators for women who are perfectly capable of having children, but don't wish to go through the 'inconvenience', for 9 months, and thus paying someone else to have their eggs implanted in them.

Children whose fathers died years before they were 'conceived' (- a few years ago, a woman had her partners sperm removed upon his death, frozen for a few years, then used to 'father' her baby)

Children being identical copies of their mothers/fathers. (Animals have already been cloned, the cloned human being is only a few years away)

You get the picture!

[nabeel_1990]

Woah buddy...enough with the uncalled-for allegations!

Why couldn't you simply respond to my query instead of launching into a tirade of baseless character assasination of mine? You've been forever implying that Quran doesn't have complete information for which you have to look up other texts -- man-made that are -- for further guidance. What's stopping you from completely endorsing this view of yours? Don't cloak yourself behind long-winded and condescending words towards me -- out with it already.

Moreover, you allege that I "do not value the practical life of Prophet(pbuh)". Where have I implied or said such a thing? Here's my view again for your convenience; and dont make me repeat this again: The Quran has sufficient mention of Prophet's actions and deeds (sunnah), which is what needs to be followed as prescribed, recorded and protected by Allah. Keyphrase here being "recorded and protected by Allah" and not some flawed human's recollection of events that Allah never professed to keep nor commanded to follow. If Allah chose not to list certain things in The Quran then only His infinite wisdom can answer this. We are always welcome to talk to him directly through prayer and meditation to get all worldly answers. No flawed human scholar is worthy enough nor capable to act as a mediator between us two.

If you cannot back up your view of following man-made hadeeth books with quotations from Allah Himself then at the least keep quiet; and not indulge yourself in attacks for personal satisfaction. That only vilifies you and your POV further.

do you believe in hadeeth, the sunnah of the prophet pbuh is also preserved and this comes from hadeeth.