Pak "A" v Aus "A" (2nd test) score thread (17-20 sept)

[Amjid Javed]

game starts tmoz 17th sept - 20th sept

pakistan lead series 1-0 with 1 game to play.

place SCORE UPDATES ONLY on this thread

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Pakistan/Events/Australia_A_in_Pakistan_2005-06.html

[waquas_uk]

anywhere to watch this game?

[DM]

I cannot wait!! Hopefully by some miracle Yasir Ali plays and then he and Irshad can demolish Australia :D



And to keep in topic, the score's 0/0 off 0.0 overs
:D

[Bitman]

Any team news? ::J

[Nauman]

Well Shahid Nazir, Umar Gul, Sami and Salman Butt are not playing which means we might see Yasir Ali, Irshad or Najaf Shah.

[Mercenary]

Yasir Ali wasnt picked in the squad announced yesterday. If this match is anything like the first one then we wont get any update till the end of the days play at around 1600 hours London time! Below is the 15 man squad for this game...

Pakistan A
Misbahul Haq (captain),
Zulqarnain (wicketkeeper),
Asher Zaidi,
Imran Farhat,
Bazid Khan,
Hasan Raza,
Faisal Iqbal,
Mansoor Amjad,
Muhammad Asif,
Muhammad Irshad,
Yasir Arafat,
Muhammad Khalil,
Shahid Yousuf,
Najaf Shah,
Nomanullah.

Australia A
Brad Haddin (New South Wales, captain),
Michael Hussey (Western Australia),
Nathan Bracken (NSW),
Stuart Clark (NSW),
Daniel Cullen (South Australia),
Brad Hodge (Victoria),
James Hopes (Queensland),
Phil Jaques (NSW),
Michael Lewis (Victoria),
Marcus North (Western Australia),
Dominic Thornely (NSW),
Shane Watson (Queensland),
Mitchell Johnson (Queensland)
Cameron White (Victoria).

[MIG]

Cant believe that we have no PPers in Pak who can provide some updates ! Maybe I should check with Babu...

[hasan316]

where can we watch this game?

[MIG]

Unfortuantely - only in Pakistan !

[DM]

updates please, i'm dying for them! Is Irshad playing? Is Yasir Ali playing?

[hello143]

Latest update : Australia 220/ 2

Don't know who took the wickets.. Thats all i know now.

[DM]

thanks hello :)

doesn't look good....

[tahaqureshi]

And as per reports, sami and gul arent playing, I guess it shows they are our best bowlers doesnt it?

[Somali Pirate]

could'nt careless.good thing about this game is asif n khalil won't play again.........i hope

[Toony™®]

318/5 stumps

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Pakistan/Scorecards/f/0/ff859.html

[KaSaNoVa_G]

day belongs to the aussies then....

[arsal_pakfan]

i hope we sneak a draw here so that we will win the series automatically!...i dont think with with this lineup we can beat them!

[Amjid Javed]

alot of pressure will fall upon pak "A" openers ashar zaid and imran farhat to perform. they will have to top anything malik/butt did in 1st game...

[DM]

anyone have any links to a report? How did our bowlers play?

[zaf1986]

Ashar Zaidi and Imran Farhat have a good chance to stake their claim for an opening slot for the Tests. The pitch seems flat, and fingers crossed they will do well..

[floatingslip]

scorecard

http://www.pcb.com.pk/Pakistan/Scorecards/f/0/ff859.html

[OTW]

James Hopes opening? Thought he was a middle order bat - surprised that Phil Jaques is sitting out though. Jaques over bits-and-pieces Thornley (with Hopes then coming in the middle order) might have been a better bet. Still, kudos to Hopes to putting up the runs opening.

[Edit: Yep, he batted in the middle order for QLD, usually at six. Even more of a surprise then...]

[Jahangir Khan]

If this is a flat pitch and the Aussie A batsmen cashed in, there is no reason why the Pak A players can't do the same. The Aus A bowlers are not worldbeaters so the likes of Farhat, Misbah, Bazid, Raza and Faisal Iqbal can all score big when their turn comes.

Hopefully we can skittle them for under 400 tomorrow before building a big score. Don't forget that we have some of our best young hopes playing in this game. If we avoid defeat in this game, I would consider it a better achievement than winning the 1st game as we have more inexperienced players here, especially the bowlers.

Maybe Irshad and Najaf can show what they can do with an old ball tomorrow.

[Mercenary]

could'nt careless.good thing about this game is asif n khalil won't play again.........i hope

to be fair khalil isnt playing and Asif outperformed Irshad who got a spanking! I guess Woolmer knows what he's talking about when he says Irshad is still raw!

I hope day 2 sees an upturn in Irshad, Najafs and Mansoors fortunes.

I cant believe Faisal Iqbal and Bazid Khan and Misbah Ul Haq are playing in place of Shahid Yousaf

[Amjid Javed]

James Hopes opening? Thought he was a middle order bat - surprised that Phil Jaques is sitting out though. Jaques over bits-and-pieces Thornley (with Hopes then coming in the middle order) might have been a better bet. Still, kudos to Hopes to putting up the runs opening.

[Edit: Yep, he batted in the middle order for QLD, usually at six. Even more of a surprise then...]#

james hopes is nothing more than a bits & pieces player. bats and bowls abit..
am shocked he opened and scored so many runs! :O

[Mercenary]

i think OTW said Thornley is a bits and pieces player

[tahaqureshi]

Irshad failed to impress. He got enough quota to prove himself. I've realised now that ppl on PP love to talk as if they cricket muftis, but in reality they dont know the first thing about Pakistan domestic cricketers. I dont expect anything form Yasir Ali either. Sami, Rana, Gul and Akhtar are our best bowlers and it hopefully stay that way for a long time to come.

[Mercenary]

Irshad failed to impress. He got enough quota to prove himself. I've realised now that ppl on PP love to talk as if they cricket muftis, but in reality they dont know the first thing about Pakistan domestic cricketers. I dont expect anything form Yasir Ali either. Sami, Rana, Gul and Akhtar are our best bowlers and it hopefully stay that way for a long time to come.

And u based that on one days bowling did you? This is Irshad's first bowl at some top batsmen on what seems to be a very flat pitch.

Do you expect him to take 20 wikets in his debut test as well?

[Nauman]

Australia A first innings Runs Balls Mins 4s 6s
MEK Hussey lbw b Mohammad Asif 15
JR Hopes b Mohammad Asif 146
MJ North b Mansoor Amjad 18
BJ Hodge c Bazid Khan b Najaf Shah 68
DJ Thornely run out 21
SR Watson not out 20
*+BJ Haddin not out 5
CL White still to bat
ML Lewis still to bat
DJ Cullen still to bat
SR Clark still to bat
Extras (5 b, 1 lb, 19 nb) 25
Total (5 wickets, 90 overs) 318
Fall of wickets:
1-84, 2-149, 3-243, 4-284, 5-308
Pakistan A bowling Overs Mdns Runs Wkts Wides No-Balls
Mohammad Asif 20 3 80 2 - -
Najaf Shah 13 3 41 1 - -
Mohammad Irshad 14 2 60 0 - -
Mansoor Amjad 23 3 73 1 - -
Ashar Zaidi 13 0 34 0 - -
Imran Farhat 7 1 24 0 - -

[Rob H]

I wonder what Haddin and Watson will do tomorrow. They are both hit and miss players.

[Amjid Javed]

i think OTW said Thornley is a bits and pieces player

:13: thats strange. thornley rarely bowls in 1st class cricket (3/4 day games etc).

Hes a batsmen who can at times turn his arm over mainly in LOI games (odd occasion).

james hopes in all reality is probably the equivalent of a azhar mahmood etc... hes not to flash with bat or ball!

[Amjid Javed]

I wonder what Haddin and Watson will do tomorrow. They are both hit and miss players.

cameron white can bat aswell... so pak "A" bowlers still have alot to do.

[OTW]

i think OTW said Thornley is a bits and pieces player
I'd rate Hopes as more than just a bits and pieces cricketer.

Last season he played a major role in QLD getting to the Pura cup final, scoring 600+ runs at an average of over 40, and taking 18 wickets (two more than Watson, 5 fewer than Ash Noffke) at a very decent average of 26.44. He's no more than medium pace though, very similar to Scott Styris or Dwayne Bravo. Somewhere along with Andrew Symonds as far as all rounder potential goes IMO.

Thornley had an excellent season last year for NSW with the bat (scored 1000+ runs), but his bowling is nothing to write home about (unlike Hopes, who in fact did quite a good job with the ball in the one ODI he played against New Zealand. I reckon if he can nail down a place in the side, he could definitely fill in 7-10 good overs in ODIs, and be a useful side bowler to keep an end tight if he ever does play tests).

Thornley doesn't bowl too much for NSW which is understandable given the Blues' bowling strengths. Last season they had Clark/Bracken/Nicholson/MacGill forming a very potent attack, and with Jason Krezja and Doug Bollinger also bowling quite a bit, it's not surprising that Thornley rarely was given the option to bowl. Shows that he's not in that class bowling-wise, but more of a genuine part-timer.

In contrast, when playing for Surrey, Thornley bowled a heck of a lot more (given the weak Surrey attack) and had negligible success. IIRC, he took on the role of first-change bowler in one game and was ineffective.

[Mercenary]

Jaques over bits-and-pieces Thornley (with Hopes then coming in the middle order) might have been a better bet.

The text inside the brackets is an aside, read the complete sentence in bold. OTW says that Jaques would have been a better bet than bits and pieces Thornley.

[Mercenary]

if Thornley is a good batsman then he isnt a bits and pieces player is he

[Amjid Javed]

Merc, i think OTW has confused most peeps with contradicting statements.

hopes - bits & pieces player

thornley & hodge - Good batsmen who turn there arms over (hodge more so)

OTW, i recon jaques has been left out to give others ago. it wont be a cricketing decision.

[OTW]

if Thornley is a good batsman then he isnt a bits and pieces player is he
One good season for NSW. That's it; and I don't yet rate him as a batsman per se, especially given that just a season before that, he was incapable of holding a place in a NSW first XI (12 innings, average of 28.58. And in that season, bowled a lot more regularly).

http://uk.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/AUS_LOCAL/PC/STATS/PC_2003-04_NSW.html - Here's the data.

[Amjid Javed]

OTW, ive spoken to a few aussies at work and they recon that the future
for aussies isnt all bright.

Aussies still have the batting coming thru and a new leg spinner may come thru "the
academy". however, i was told that the seamer department aint to clever at moment.

Also unlike past years aussies under 19 sides, which have produced talent down years, have been pretty poor over last few years.

[Amjid Javed]

One good season for NSW. That's it; and I don't yet rate him as a batsman per se, especially given that just a season before that, he was incapable of holding a place in a NSW first XI (12 innings, average of 28.58. And in that season, bowled a lot more regularly).

http://uk.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/AUS_LOCAL/PC/STATS/PC_2003-04_NSW.html - Here's the data.

i seen him bat for surrey albeit in county cricket and he looked pretty good. then agen u may have a valid point. most overseas players fill there boots in county cricket.

[Somali Pirate]

Mohammad Irshad 14 2 60 0

Damn!

[Aurangzeb]

i told you so...irshad is overhyped...what happened buddy? i thought you could reverse it both ways at 90mph...the next shoaib? i think not...

[OTW]

i told you so...irshad is overhyped...what happened buddy? i thought you could reverse it both ways at 90mph...the next shoaib? i think not...
Calling him overhyped on the basis of 14 overs is about as bright as calling him the next big thing on the basis of one or two quick spells. Only a period of time on the international circuit will determine whether or not he really does have the ability, or whether it's all just hype.

[Officer Barbrady]

Najaf usually does a pretty good job in these A team matches and once again has pretty decent figures. Any way Pakistan did pick a ok side and a decent performance given the strength of the Aussie batting.

[Usman]

After a long injury lay off, no Umer Gul = no logic = no brains!

[Hash]

Calling him overhyped on the basis of 14 overs is about as bright as calling him the next big thing on the basis of one or two quick spells. Only a period of time on the international circuit will determine whether or not he really does have the ability, or whether it's all just hype.

well said.

[DM]

Calling him overhyped on the basis of 14 overs is about as bright as calling him the next big thing on the basis of one or two quick spells. Only a period of time on the international circuit will determine whether or not he really does have the ability, or whether it's all just hype.
seconded

Having not even seen him, i'd easily take Irshad over Khalil, Asif because i've seen what the latter can do and they don't cut the mustard whereas Irshad is as yet an unknown quantity and can bowl 90+mph. Yes speed is a factor.

[Somali Pirate]

seconded

Having not even seen him, i'd easily take Irshad over Khalil, Asif because i've seen what the latter can do and they don't cut the mustard whereas Irshad is as yet an unknown quantity and can bowl 90+mph. Yes speed is a factor.

u seem to be obsessed with pace.Understand that fast bowling is more than just pace.

[DM]

my obsession is with the seemingly lack of recognition amongst some fans of the value of pace in international cricket. I take solace in the fact that at least professionally, this isn't the case, where for example in the West Indies, one of the only fast youngsters with almost no cricket experience whatsoever make the test team ahead of many more experienced medium-pacers (eg Fidel Edwards) and many other similar examples around the world.

[Somali Pirate]

dm

pace is only lethal with good accuracy and L&L.Otherwise it is useless.

by the way fidel average is pathetic in tests.whereas medium pacer collymore n collins are much better

[Prince]

Exactly, I'd easily take Irshad and Yasir Ali over Khalil and Asif. Pace is a special weapon and if it is used accurately, it can be absolutely deadly. Medium-paced trundlers don't get you anywhere...lets throw Irshad and Yasir Ali in and see whether they can cut it in international cricket.

[razzler]

Exactly, I'd easily take Irshad and Yasir Ali over Khalil and Asif. Pace is a special weapon and if it is used accurately, it can be absolutely deadly. Medium-paced trundlers don't get you anywhere...lets throw Irshad and Yasir Ali in and see whether they can cut it in international cricket.

I am against this for now. A couple of more A tours and good showing in them coupled with atleast a one or two more good domestic seasons then they should be given a chance.

[Somali Pirate]

Exactly, I'd easily take Irshad and Yasir Ali over Khalil and Asif. Pace is a special weapon and if it is used accurately, it can be absolutely deadly. Medium-paced trundlers don't get you anywhere...lets throw Irshad and Yasir Ali in and see whether they can cut it in international cricket.

nice logic.Throw youngsters in to the sea without grooming them properly.

[Monsee]

This is what I wrote yesterday (in the Pak A thread) and looks like it will come true too:12: :12:



I predict a defeat for Pak A

With bowlers like M. Asif and Khalil instead of Yasir Ali...its a crying shame

Now everyone knows why I was so upset when Misbah didn't give Yasir Ali enough overs in that practice game between Pak whites and greens...I knew right there that the poor boy is getting set up:12:

M.Asif and Khalil both will play and Aussie A will score 400-500 and will bowl us out quite cheaply...anyone knows Bari's:30: home Address



Go Bari go:30: , select Trundlers over real prospects...I hope I am wrong but Aussies will not loose from here barring a big collapse:9:

[Officer Barbrady]

This is what I wrote yesterday (in the Pak A thread) and looks like it will come true too:12: :12:

Go Bari go:30: , select Trundlers over real prospects...I hope I am wrong but Aussies will not loose from here barring a big collapse:9:

Surprised to see that you say nothing about the coach who very much has a say in selection and is involved with the A team at the moment. He is the one who rates Khalil highly not Bari.

Woolmer says he liked what he saw of Shahid Yousuf and Ashar Zaidi and regardless of their domestic stats they have been selected since. If he really wanted Yasir Ali in the team he would have played.

[Officer Barbrady]

my obsession is with the seemingly lack of recognition amongst some fans of the value of pace in international cricket. I take solace in the fact that at least professionally, this isn't the case, where for example in the West Indies, one of the only fast youngsters with almost no cricket experience whatsoever make the test team ahead of many more experienced medium-pacers (eg Fidel Edwards) and many other similar examples around the world.

DM, have you thought of the possibility that perhaps we do not have an express bowler available at the moment? Bob Woolmer keeps insisting that he would love to have an express option playing for the senior team IF there was one available. He is not a stupid man by all accounts so perhaps we should look into the possibility that Irshad may be overhyped just like Raiz Afridi, Rao and others before him. Or that he really really isn't ready to play test cricket.

I'd reserve judgment till I watch Irshad in action. Most of us still haven't seen Irshad or even Yasir Ali in action so far. We go by rumors and Aaqib Javed interviews, who also believes Asif and Yasser Arafat are the best bowlers in domestic cricket. These two have played and were ordinary and unless things have drastically changed in a matter of months, Aaqib was wrong.

[Hussain]

320-5

[Officer Barbrady]

320-5
You mean today they have added the two runs?

[Baron]

The one thing the Aussies regularly produce are tough strong batting lineups, so seeing our boys struggle isnt surprising. Remember guys, when you play at this level you need to bowl well, at the right spots, with consistency and with movement. You cant hope to pick up wickets by simply bowling quick as we've seen the Pak bowlers of recent doing (Sami and Akhtar). Its quite telling that our best bowler at the moment is Rana. The key is to pick a balanced attack and not to pick another erratic ultra quick bowler who occassionally does the business. Thats why Bob isnt even putting Irshad in the picture yet and focussing his attentions towards Gul and Rana. Personally i think, Gul is exactly the type of bowler we're looking and if god willing, Sami and Akthar, especially Sami, can pick it up and bowl more consistent and with some movement. Then we should be able to challenge England properly. However, if they go in with the usual dumb notion of bowling just quick, they will honest to god get pummelled all over the ground all day by England, as whats happened to Lee in the Ashes.

[Saj]

some very good points there Baron. I've been saying this for a good few years, its not just about pace and running up to bowl as fast as you can.

[Hussain]

You mean today they have added the two runs?

yep
tht was the latest update i cud get

[Aurangzeb]

i wouldn't take a guy based on pace alone...i think we all know by now our good friend mohammad sami who only posesses pace and nothing else and how he fares...i'd take a guy like gul or even rao over sami to head my attack...pace alone does not trouble batsmen at this level...they laugh at pace...movement off the seam, swinging deliveries, tight line and length are the real keys to success...just ask the world's best bowler glen macgrath...

[Nauman]

Wether you like it or not at the end of the day a 9 out of 10 successfull bowlers will be those who bowled at atleast above 85mph anything lower than that is unacceptable in test cricket unless you have accuracy of Richard Hadlee, Glen McGrath or Shaun Pollock. That doesnt mean you only need pace you need to have pace and decent amount of control unfortunately Sami has pace but doesnt possess any control what so ever.

[Naz]

hopefully openers perform on this flat deck.

[Amjid Javed]

UPDATE ON games - says no play 2day!!

anyone know why?

[MWH]

From Woolmer's site:

" Yes today's play was washed out because water went under the covers and flooded the pitch. "

[Somali Pirate]

Wether you like it or not at the end of the day a 9 out of 10 successfull bowlers will be those who bowled at atleast above 85mph anything lower than that is unacceptable in test cricket unless you have accuracy of Richard Hadlee, Glen McGrath or Shaun Pollock. That doesnt mean you only need pace you need to have pace and decent amount of control unfortunately Sami has pace but doesnt possess any control what so ever.

hmph.....so guys like vaas,hoggard,glenn mcgrath,pollock are not acceptable in test cricket,

[Pathan007]

about Aus A
REPLY BY: BOB, (18 Sep 2005, 07h47:48)
Hi talalahmed,
1. Yes today's play was washed out because water went under the covers and flooded the pitch. The first day we bolwed well on a very flat surface.

[Nauman]

hmph.....so guys like vaas,hoggard,glenn mcgrath,pollock are not acceptable in test cricket,

I explicitly singled out McGrath and Pollock and you can hardly call Vass and Hoggard world class bowlers.

[Pathan007]

Vass without a doubt is World class bowler.

[Usman]

I explicitly singled out McGrath and Pollock and you can hardly call Vass and Hoggard world class bowlers.

Hoggard is not yet a world class bowler but Vass is without a doubt a world class bowler, I would rate him atleast in my top 10.

[DM]

by the way fidel average is pathetic in tests.whereas medium pacer collymore n collins are much better
You're missing my point - by saying i rate the value of pace very highly (and looking at history, rightly so) i am not saying that i do not value medium pacers. The point i'm making is that when someone comes along who bowls at 150kph, he is more likely than a slower bowler to make a team (and again, looking at history/statistics, rightly so).

[Somali Pirate]

hoggard is the work horse of the england team....the strike bowler.he won the game in trent bridge for eng and picked wickets too in the oval

In fact IN SA my friend he was the reason england won the series in the first place.

[DM]

DM, have you thought of the possibility that perhaps we do not have an express bowler available at the moment? Bob Woolmer keeps insisting that he would love to have an express option playing for the senior team IF there was one available. He is not a stupid man by all accounts so perhaps we should look into the possibility that Irshad may be overhyped just like Raiz Afridi, Rao and others before him. Or that he really really isn't ready to play test cricket.

I'd reserve judgment till I watch Irshad in action. Most of us still haven't seen Irshad or even Yasir Ali in action so far. We go by rumors and Aaqib Javed interviews, who also believes Asif and Yasser Arafat are the best bowlers in domestic cricket. These two have played and were ordinary and unless things have drastically changed in a matter of months, Aaqib was wrong.
Good post bro. And to reply to your opening question, yes, i have considered and if you look at many of the team threads (i've posted about 4 recently) i usually add:
"Mohammad Irshad (if 150kph)
Yasir Ali (if 150kph)"

So yes of course if Irshad is not as fast as he is purported to be, then i would not include him in the team (unless of course he is metronomically accurate, has brilliant swing or any other standout qualities)

[DM]

hmph.....so guys like vaas,hoggard,glenn mcgrath,pollock are not acceptable in test cricket,they are exceptions for slow pacers. A higher proportion of 150kph bowlers succeed in test cricket, and when they do, they are the best in terms of factors such strike rate and usually in terms of average. This is why people are "obsessed" with an express pacer when he comes along.

[DM]

nice logic.Throw youngsters in to the sea without grooming them properly.
That can be the best way to learn to swim. It worked well for Waqar. He was a teenager. As were players like Akram and Mohammad Zahid. Michael Holding was about 20, as was Ntini. Fidel Edwards hardly played cricket before his debut yet he's already looking one of their most lethal bowlers.

Even if they start their test careers poorly with 0-100 as Jeff Thomson did, or Shoaib Akhtar (who had a huge average in the high 30s and early 40s) or Fidel Edwards' early matches, they'll eventually come good as Jeff Thomson and Shoaib Akhtar did and Fidel is now producing better results because they add accuracy to their gift of 150kph pace - developing pace is an awful lot more difficult than developing accuracy and some like Dennis Lillee say almost impossible (though i can think of two outsanding examples of developing express pace - Malcom Marshall and Imran - but they're exceptions to the rule "you're born fast"). Irshad is about 24 now, so if he really is as fast as they say, we shouldn't be taking long with his inclusion.

[Toony™®]

no play becos of rain..lol - 2 days left for the ozzies to save themselves from another series defeat.

[Amjid Javed]

no play becos of rain..lol - 2 days left for the ozzies to save themselves from another series defeat.

with a damp pitch it cud now become a seamers paradise!

[Somali Pirate]

they are exceptions for slow pacers. A higher proportion of 150kph bowlers succeed in test cricket, and when they do, they are the best in terms of factors such strike rate and usually in terms of average. This is why people are "obsessed" with an express pacer when he comes along.

other than harmy,freddie,bond,shoaib and ntini....can u tell me who else is a fear factor now.

U can put your exceptions to failures like fidel,tino,sami as well:19:

[Somali Pirate]

That can be the best way to learn to swim. It worked well for Waqar. He was a teenager. As were players like Akram and Mohammad Zahid. Michael Holding was about 20, as was Ntini. Fidel Edwards hardly played cricket before his debut yet he's already looking one of their most lethal bowlers.

Even if they start their test careers poorly with 0-100 as Jeff Thomson did, or Shoaib Akhtar (who had a huge average in the high 30s and early 40s) or Fidel Edwards' early matches, they'll eventually come good as Jeff Thomson and Shoaib Akhtar did and Fidel is now producing better results because they add accuracy to their gift of 150kph pace - developing pace is an awful lot more difficult than developing accuracy and some like Dennis Lillee say almost impossible (though i can think of two outsanding examples of developing express pace - Malcom Marshall and Imran - but they're exceptions to the rule "you're born fast"). Irshad is about 24 now, so if he really is as fast as they say, we shouldn't be taking long with his inclusion.

just because it worked for waqar does'nt mean it will work for sami.Should'nt sami be averasging waqar's of 19 by now.

When you don't teach youngsters the complete art of bowling then they become clueless.

[Baron]

Ok, the main point is for Pakistan to present a bowling lineup that is varied in the pace department. Whether we like it or not, we do need a Vaas or Mcgrath type of bowler in our side, that will keep the opposition batting guessing. However, the Sami and Akthar of today can not compare with the Waqar and Wasim of yesteryear. Even when they were raw and bowling fast, they always used move the ball. Not sure where Bobs seeing Sami and Akthar swing the ball but i havent seen it for ages. If they do manage to, they only do it a tiny amount and seldom in the right areas. Something that is worrying especially when the English bowlers do it so much and so well.

Theres a comment Inzi made that made no sense. According to him, the English will be unable to swing the ball in Pakistan. Anyone please correct me but didnt Pathan, Nehra and darkman Balaji turn the ball around corners??? And if im wrong, our premier bowlers, Sami and Akthar, couldnt even get it to move in gale force winds!

[DM]

other than harmy,freddie,bond,shoaib and ntini....can u tell me who else is a fear factor now.

U can put your exceptions to failures like fidel,tino,sami as well:19:
i don't understand what you mean here - are you suggesting that it isn't the case that a higher proportion of 150kph bowlers are successful in test cricket than medium pacers?

[DM]

just because it worked for waqar does'nt mean it will work for sami.Should'nt sami be averasging waqar's of 19 by now.
Again you use Sami as the archetype, when he's in fact one of the exceptions (so far - remember his career isn't over and even Akhtar had a high average some years ago). How many 150kph failures do you know? Now weigh them up with the 150kph successes. Then compare with the medium pacers. You don't even need the statistics, it's obvious :)

[Baron]

On the subject of ultra quicks. You'll see the ones that are able to control the ball are more successful than the ones that have less. An example would be Lee and Bond. Even though Bond is a 150kph + man, he is still a fair bit slower than Lee. But Bond has more control and consistency with the ball than Lee, which is reflected in his stats. If you cast your memory back about 4/5 years ago, SA were raving on about a new fast bowler that could bowl well over 150kph. He went by the name of Nanty Hayward. Lets just say a few matches later on he was known as Nanty Wayward and subsequently dumped. You see its not a question of speed, its what your able to do with a ball. And well when your slower, you are more able to move the ball than if you was quick. Only a few well known Ultra quicks were able to do both.

[Prince]

Irshad is about 24 now, so if he really is as fast as they say, we shouldn't be taking long with his inclusion.

I read that Irshad was 22 and going to be 23? It also says that on cricinfo :20:

But I agree...how long are we going to wait to see him? When hes 26? 27? IF he is express pace then lets see it...we'll be able to tell pretty quickly whether he has what it takes to succeed at the international level...if its obvious that he doesn't have what it takes, then at least we'll know and finally get the record straight on whether he's hype or the real deal.

[Somali Pirate]

you know what dm.We can play sami with his average of 50 for next 50 years and you will still back him up because of potential and stuff.

When someone keeps backing sami to this day then nothing will convince them
Oh by the way bro cricket is more complicated than 150 kph yorkers.

[DM]

you know what dm.We can play sami with his average of 50 for next 50 years and you will still back him up because of potential and stuff.

When someone keeps backing sami to this day then nothing will convince them
show me where i have backed Sami in this discussion. If Sami continues to produce poor results then of course he should make way for someone else. And here's an interesting question. Why do you think management and selectors have been persisting with him if his test statistics are still not yet up to scratch? The answer to that question is his pace. If he didn't have it he'd be out.

[DM]

Oh by the way bro cricket is more complicated than 150 kph yorkers.
I'm well aware of that bro, my point in this discussion is arguing the merit of express pace.

[DM]

On the subject of ultra quicks. You'll see the ones that are able to control the ball are more successful than the ones that have less. An example would be Lee and Bond. Even though Bond is a 150kph + man, he is still a fair bit slower than Lee. But Bond has more control and consistency with the ball than Lee, which is reflected in his stats. If you cast your memory back about 4/5 years ago, SA were raving on about a new fast bowler that could bowl well over 150kph. He went by the name of Nanty Hayward. Lets just say a few matches later on he was known as Nanty Wayward and subsequently dumped. You see its not a question of speed, its what your able to do with a ball. And well when your slower, you are more able to move the ball than if you was quick. Only a few well known Ultra quicks were able to do both.
Good post, but just one point: Nantie Hayward was dropped when he slowed down after his injury. Before that, when he was bowling at 150kph he was devastating (his average was in the mid-20s). In fact even after this injury which slowed him down, he finished with a good test average of 29.8 and an excellent Strike Rate of 52.2. And this is from a bowler who has always been regarded as very wayward. When you bowl at 150kph, you're more than likely going to do damage.


And you're right, when high pace is combined with high accuracy, the results are even more devastating.

[Somali Pirate]

show me where i have backed Sami in this discussion. If Sami continues to produce poor results then of course he should make way for someone else. And here's an interesting question. Why do you think management and selectors have been persisting with him if his test statistics are still not yet up to scratch? The answer to that question is his pace. If he didn't have it he'd be out.

so as long as he bowls 90mph long hops he will be fine.eh?

[KB]

A lot of people say that express pace on its own is not much use unless it is combined with another asset.

Whilst that is true, it is also needs to be pointed out that the same can be said about other attributes bowlers may have. For instance not much point being pin-point accurate if you bowl at 70 mph. Nathan Astle and Gavin Larsen were very accurate bowlers, but not Test match class. Equally you may have a bowler who gets a lot of bounce, but it is not much use if there is not much else that comes with it - hence why Jo Angel never succeeded at Test level. A bowler who spins it a mile will not get wickets unless he has some semblance of control.

With any type of bowling you need a combination of attributes. This does not only apply to express bowlers.

[DM]

so as long as he bowls 90mph long hops he will be fine.eh?judging by his continued selection, it seems moreso than the rest of the fast bowling talent (but i'm not personally affirming your leading statement ;-) )

[Baron]

Good post, but just one point: Nantie Hayward was dropped when he slowed down after his injury. Before that, when he was bowling at 150kph he was devastating (his average was in the mid-20s). In fact even after this injury which slowed him down, he finished with a good test average of 29.8 and an excellent Strike Rate of 52.2. And this is from a bowler who has always been regarded as very wayward. When you bowl at 150kph, you're more than likely going to do damage.


And you're right, when high pace is combined with high accuracy, the results are even more devastating.

True, he was good to begin with but his performances were alittle erratic at times. Ok granted, if your ultra quick then there will be times when you will do well. But doing it now and again isnt really good enough when facing top flight teams. Take Lee for an example, there were times in the ashes when he looked good but on most occasssions his 95 mph deliveries looked absolutely ordinary. This due to his lack of consistency and, line and length. His performances were so up and down during the 5 test series that you couldnt tell if he was going to do anything at all. The same can be attributed to Sami, you just dont know if he can do it. Infact your more worried if he'll go for over 5 runs an over!

[Nawazb]

any news on the third days play?

[Hash]

lol...no just teasing.

I have no idea what the score is. Check out www.pcboard.com.pk (http://www.pcboard.com.pk) that will be the first place to update.

[Nawazb]

well hash it sounded believable because just look at our batting lineup bazid, faisal etc

[yk]

any updates??

[sehsan]

what a knock by hassan raza, Seems like he will in the squad for england series

check out the scorecard on

www.pcboard.com.pk (http://www.pcboard.com.pk)

[Naveed]

What's incredible is that he came in at 88 and they ended at 249. This means that he got 111 of the 161 runs accumulated while he was at the crease.

[Muddaser]

Well done Hasan Raza.

Mansoor looks like he is gonna play another useful knock too.

[yk]

Well Done Hassan Bhai!!!

Match Heading for a draw...means we take the series...wooohoooooooo!!!!

[Muddaser]

Number 6 spot is his for the taking. No way is Asim Kamal a better batsmen than Hasan Raza.

[KaSaNoVa_G]

good knock my raza.. and yeah match should now be a draw...

[Somali Pirate]

hasan scoring another high presssure knock.why is it not suprising?

[Waseem]

No Hasan doesn't deserve a spot in our TEST team, he struggled badly against pace 7-8 years ago and we have better players than him like Malik, Razzaq and Afridi who can bowl as well.


Anyway I would like to see Hasan in our TEST team even if it means him or Younis Khan will open.

[Muddaser]

We can fit him at number 6.

Salman Butt
Shahid Afridi
Younis Khan
Inzamam
Youhana
Hasan Raza
Kamran Akmal
Mohammed Sami
Umar Gul
Shoaib Akhtar
Danish Kaneria

Looks good to me.

[yk]

I think Kamal will play during the England, unless he gets injured, the Hassan mite get a go. Otherwise i can't see Bob experimenting in such a crucial series.

[Naveed]

We can fit him at number 6.

Salman Butt
Shahid Afridi
Younis Khan
Inzamam
Youhana
Hasan Raza
Kamran Akmal
Mohammed Sami
Umar Gul
Shoaib Akhtar
Danish Kaneria

Looks good to me.
That's definitely that I would go with.

[Muddaser]

When are we gonna experiment?

For the last 18 months we have wasted our opportunities by playing club class players like Khalil.

Seriously how much worse could Hasan do?

Not like Asim is a proven cricketer.

[Monsee]

No Hasan doesn't deserve a spot in our TEST team, he struggled badly against pace 7-8 years ago and we have better players than him like Malik, Razzaq and Afridi who can bowl as well.


Anyway I would like to see Hasan in our TEST team even if it means him or Younis Khan will open.


So you think a player cannot improve ever...even after 7-8 years:20:

What did his current innings proved, jack squat...he was up against Aussie A Fast bowlers. Why he didn't struggle now:13:

What about SA A, SriLanka A, India A etc....I am sure those teams do have some decent pace bowlers. Hasan has scored tons of runs against all those teams

[yk]

Asim is a solid batsmen, ESPECIALLY on home pitches. Maybe he hasn't totally proven himself, but he DEFINATELY has proven his worth on subcontinent pitches (played well against SA, India etc)....Asim will NOT be dropped, trust me.

[Naveed]

Hasan is 23 years old. So he struggled against world class fast bowling when he was 15 years old, who wouldn't?

[Monsee]

Asim is a solid batsmen, ESPECIALLY on home pitches. Maybe he hasn't totally proven himself, but he DEFINATELY has proven his worth on subcontinent pitches (played well against SA, India etc)....Asim will NOT be dropped, trust me.


Hasan Raza has a better appetite for Big Scores...Asim barely crosses 60 most of the times

For now Asim might be persisted with but Hasan is putting a lot of pressure on him to go on and score a 100 soon or loose his place

[Mercenary]

monsee u missed the sarcasm!

[hasanahmad]

Its time to drop either Shoaib Malik, Asim Kamal, Afridi or Razzaq from the Test squad and put this man in the squad, There is a limit to this stupidity, How long will we waste his talent on a bunch of inconsistent cricketers.

[Monsee]

monsee u missed the sarcasm!


I felt it a bit when I read the post the 2nd time but it's his fault, he should have used a smiley or beside his comments

[yk]

Not my fault....heheheheehehehehehe

[Waseem]

Muddaser, i want the same team but don't really think it's gonna be possible. Even if kamal is dropped, he will be replaced by either Afridi( who wants to bat down the order), Razzaq or Shoaib Malik.

[Amjid Javed]

When are we gonna experiment?

For the last 18 months we have wasted our opportunities by playing club class players like Khalil.

Seriously how much worse could Hasan do?

Not like Asim is a proven cricketer.

hasan raza has done superbly and shud be in the squad. He seems to have improved 10 fold since his early days....

u say asim isnt proven yet you have "the proven" sami in ur side :))) :)))

why not pick s nazir (just like hasan raza hes done everything he can to earn
a recall with good performances)

sadly seems like youve double standards interms of ur selection policy! :9:

I dont mind u saying u want hasan in side ( 1 see your point loud and clear :19: ) but to include sami :O :))

[Naveed]

hasan raza has done superbly and shud be in the squad. He seems to have improved 10 fold since his early days....

u say asim isnt proven yet you have "the proven" sami in ur side :))) :)))

why not pick s nazir (just like hasan raza hes done everything he can to earn
a recall with good performances)

sadly seems like youve double standards interms of ur selection policy! :9:

I dont mind u saying u want hasan in side ( 1 see your point loud and clear :19: ) but to include sami :O :))

For you to compare Raza with Nazir is also pretty funny. One is overweight and 5 years older than the other. And one was never any good in the first place.

[Naveed]

Hassan cracks century;Pakistan A-Australia A match heading for draw

RAWALPINDI, Sep 19 (APP): Test discard Hassan Raza hit an unbeaten century to save blushes of Pakistan A on the penultimate day of four-day match against Australia A at KRL Cricket Stadium on Monday.

With Sunday's second day entirely washed out, the match is poised for a draw in which case Pakistan A will take the two-match series 1-0 after triumphing by seven wickets in the first game at Pindi Cricket Stadium.

Pakistan A now need just nine runs, with four wickets standing, to avert the dreaded follow-on.

Hassan Raza was batting on 111 not out off 159 balls with 13 boundaries and two 6s as Pakistan A finished the third day on 249-6, still 159 runs short of gaining the first innings lead over Australia A who resumed on 318-5 and declared on 407-8, half an hour before Lunch break.

Hassan Raza occupied the crease for three and a quarter hours, exhibiting solid technique and temperament against Australia A bowlers who had cut the Pakistan A first innings to 119-4 at one stage.

Up the batting order, Test opener Imran Farhat hammered 47 off 71 balls with six hits to the fence as Australia A off-break duo of Daniel Cullen (3-60) and Brad Hodge (1-22) posed difficulties for Pakistani batsmen after Michael Lewis had accounted for the openers.

Earlier, allrounder Shane Watson compiled 50 off 71 balls with seven 4s, after resuming on 20 not out, while Cameron White remained unbeaten on 40 off 45 balls with four 4s and one 6 in Australia A first innings.

Pakistan A strike bowler Muhammad Asif captured 3-99 and leg- spinner Mansoor Amjed 2-96.

[Amjid Javed]

well done imran farhat for getting 47 aswell... such a shame he didnt go on!

[Amjid Javed]

For you to compare Raza with Nazir is also pretty funny. One is overweight and 5 years older than the other. And one was never any good in the first place.

id didnt compare the players head to head. i was making a mere point.
sadly that basic logic is lost on urself!

[Naveed]

id didnt compare the players head to head. i was making a mere point.
sadly that basic logic is lost on urself!

And what was your point? That if Raza is on the squad, Nazir should be also?

[Amjid Javed]

And what was your point? That if Raza is on the squad, Nazir should be also?

my point was:- why is hasan raza been tipped for a recall?

ans - hes performed and done all that can be asked of him outside of the test side

s nazir has performed domestically, For A team etc... like hasan raza hes earnt the right to be considered for selection ON MERIT!

do you understand NOW?

sadly some players in pakistan team arent picked ON MERIT! :19:

[Muddaser]

Amjid, do we have anyone better than Sami? NO!

Shabbir has an illegal action, Rana is unproven, Shahid Nazir hasnt done anything of note against International a teams either. Najaf and Irshad you have never seen.

Do we have a better batsmen than Asim? YES!

Hasan Raza.

[Amjid Javed]

Amjid, do we have anyone better than Sami? NO!

Shabbir has an illegal action, Rana is unproven, Shahid Nazir hasnt done anything of note against International a teams either. Najaf and Irshad you have never seen.

Do we have a better batsmen than Asim? YES!

Hasan Raza.

how do you know we we have no-one better than sami? s nazir`s test
record is better than samis. unless u give s nazir another go you
wont know if hes better than sami! :14:

2ndly how is hasan raza better than asim kamal?

what you basing it on??? id like to see your reasons....

i hope you give the answer i expect ;-) ;-)

[Naveed]

my point was:- why is hasan raza been tipped for a recall?

ans - hes performed and done all that can be asked of him outside of the test side

s nazir has performed domestically, For A team etc... like hasan raza hes earnt the right to be considered for selection ON MERIT!

do you understand NOW?

sadly some players in pakistan team arent picked ON MERIT! :19:

So now you're saying that Sami is being picked because of favouritism?

[cricketOWU]

There is no reason for Asim Kamal to be dropped. He is a gritty performer who comes up with consistent performances. He has also shown the ability to bat with the tail, which is crucial for a lower order batsman. He has scored 8 50s in 19 innings. Talk about him being dropped is ignorant and unjustified.

[Amjid Javed]

So now you're saying that Sami is being picked because of favouritism?

:14: :14: yes!

if you want to prove otherwise then show me what consistant performances justify his place over last year or two years

[Muddaser]

Hasan Raza is ten times the batsmen Asim Kamal will ever be.

Asim Kamal has never scored any runs in pressure situations where as Hasan has done it on many occasions. Asim hasnt done anything of note in domestic cricket either.

A selfish batsmen if you ask me who spends more time looking at his situation than the teams situation.

Dont need to prove it, I have seen it on many occasions when Asim is batting.

[Amjid Javed]

There is no reason for Asim Kamal to be dropped. He is a gritty performer who comes up with consistent performances. He has also shown the ability to bat with the tail, which is crucial for a lower order batsman. He has scored 8 50s in 19 innings. Talk about him being dropped is ignorant and unjustified.

asim is not a flashy player nor is he exciting.

asim doesnt win test matches.

asim doesnt average 99 with bat after 11 test

asim doesnt have 20 test centuries which he shud by now...

(asim cant bat v spin or pace, actually asim cant even play cricket or hold
a cricket bat... )

these are the excpectations of pakistan fans for all are new batsmen...

kick asim out! :14: :14:

[Muddaser]

You pick your best players no matter what.

Hasan Raza is a better batsmen than Asim Kamal.

Enough said!

[Naveed]

:14: :14: yes!

if you want to prove otherwise then show me what consistant performances justify his place over last year or two years

Ok what is your proof? Who is favouring him? Is it because of family ties? It's easy to make statements like that but harder to back them with genuine evidence.

[Muddaser]

There is no reason for Asim Kamal to be dropped. He is a gritty performer who comes up with consistent performances. He has also shown the ability to bat with the tail, which is crucial for a lower order batsman. He has scored 8 50s in 19 innings. Talk about him being dropped is ignorant and unjustified.

Even tailenders can play gritty innings.

BIG DEAL!

[Mercenary]

This sounds familiar AJ, let me think... :13:

asim is not a flashy player nor is he exciting.

Sami doesnt rip thru sides

asim doesnt win test matches.

Sami isnt a matchwinner

asim doesnt average 99 with bat after 11 test

Sami doesnt average under 20 after 21 tests

asim doesnt have 20 test centuries which he shud by now...

Sami doesnt have a fifer in each test!

(asim cant bat v spin or pace, actually asim cant even play cricket or hold a cricket bat... )

Sami cant even bowl out a club side

...now where have i heard that??? :20:

Also if u rearrange the letters in ASIM you get SAMI :D

[Amjid Javed]

Hasan Raza is ten times the batsmen Asim Kamal will ever be.

-- proof? (seems like personal opinion)

Asim Kamal has never scored any runs in pressure situations where as Hasan has done it on many occasions.

-- yeah true asim`s 91 in mohali wasnt under pressure was it?

Asim hasnt done anything of note in domestic cricket either.

-- proof? so he was selected out of thin air was he?

A selfish batsmen if you ask me who spends more time looking at his situation than the teams situation.

-- selfish? :))) proof?

Dont need to prove it, I have seen it on many occasions when Asim is batting.

so tell me what u expect from a pakistan batsmen after 10 test matches?

seems like ur living in fantasy world thinking that we have javed miandad jnrs galore all over pakistan :))) :)))

why dont you list all the great batsmen we have produced over last 3/4 years

asim has one of the very few whose done half-decently...

---------------------

il tell you whats next... if hasan raza doesnt perform in next 10 test and someone like shahid yousaf scores well on fringes then it will be a typical muddy post kick hasan out and play shahid yousaf....

Seems new pakistan batsmen have to score 100 every inns and average 99.99 from there very 1st game or they get the boot...

time for a reality check muddy!

[Amjid Javed]

Merc, so a test average of 39 is crap is it after 11 tests? to me its pretty handy!

why dont you name all the good new batsmen weve got coming thru ranks that have better records...

samis test average of 47 afta 21 is just plain crap!

[Amjid Javed]

Even tailenders can play gritty innings.

BIG DEAL!

so what do you expect from a test batsmen then muddy?

please do tell...

[Muddaser]

so tell me what u expect from a pakistan batsmen after 10 test matches?

seems like ur living in fantasy world thinking that we have javed miandad jnrs galore all over pakistan :))) :)))

why dont you list all the great batsmen we have produced over last 3/4 years

asim has one of the very few whose done half-decently...

---------------------

il tell you whats next... if hasan raza doesnt perform in next 10 test and someone like shahid yousaf scores well on fringes then it will be a typical muddy post kick hasan out and play shahid yousaf....

Seems new pakistan batsmen have to score 100 every inns and average 99.99 from there very 1st game or they get the boot...

time for a reality check muddy!

--------------

Is it worth arguing with this guy when all he ever does is make a mountain out of a molehill?

Nothing to do with fantasy world, Miandad, Shahid Yousuf BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Lets stick to the topic and thats Asim Kamal V Hasan Raza.

[Muddaser]

OK Amjid.

Do you agree that Pakistan should always pick their 11 best players?

If so, then prove to me that Asim is a better batsmen than Hasan Raza and justifies his place in the team.

[Amjid Javed]

so tell me agen muddy.. what ur expectations are of a new pakistan test batsmen afta
10 tests?

[Amjid Javed]

OK Amjid.

Do you agree that Pakistan should always pick their 11 best players?

If so, then prove to me that Asim is a better batsmen than Hasan Raza and justifies his place in the team.

yes pakistan should pick its best x1. now tell me whats asim done to be dropped?

on same basis why u got sami in ur team? :13:

hes performance have been crap for years... :14:

why not give sum1 else more deserving a go...!

[Muddaser]

yes pakistan should pick its best x1. now tell me whats asim done to be dropped?

on same basis why u got sami in ur team? :13:

hes performance have been crpa for years... :14:

We have a better batsmen than Asim and we dont have a better bowler to replace Sami.

After all, you do agree that pakistan should play their best 11.

Enough said! ;-)

[Amjid Javed]

We have a better batsmen than Asim and we dont have a better bowler to replace Sami.

Enough said!

oh right so asim shud be dropped coz sum1s beta?

so if hasan raza averages 50 with bat and sum1 beta comes along shud he be dropped?

:))) u make me giggle!

[Naveed]

so tell me agen muddy.. what ur expectations are of a new pakistan test batsmen afta
10 tests?

I certainly would expect to see better than what Asim has done given that he can only bat at #6 (as he is susceptible to the new ball) is a horrendous runner between the wickets (has accounted for numerous run outs) and is horrendous in the field (dropped catches and limited mobility). For me he needs to average over 50 to offset all of the negatives.

[sehsan]

i agree hassan should be in SQUAD but PLZ dont tell me he should be ahead of asim kamal right now.
Asim is a perfect player pakistan have and to me he should play at 5 and Mohammad yousf at 6 as asim takes time to make score

it would be great if he will be in the squad so rest of the batsmans know if they dont perform, hassan is there to replce him

[Muddaser]

oh right so asim shud be dropped coz sum1s beta?

so if hasan raza averages 50 with bat and sum1 beta comes along shud he be dropped?

:))) u make me giggle!

I make you giggle? :O

You just agreed with me that Pakistan should always play their best 11. :20:

[Amjid Javed]

I certainly would expect to see better than what Asim has done given that he can only bat at #6 (as he is susceptible to the new ball) is a horrendous runner between the wickets (has accounted for numerous run outs) and is horrendous in the field (dropped catches and limited mobility). For me he needs to average over 50 to offset all of the negatives.

:))) pakistan is full off miandad jnrs isnt it? :)))

i hope hasan raza plays next 10 test and if he doesnt average 50 he shud be kicked out....

Such high expectations..?

:))) true stupidity... seems to me you think pakistan is littered with bradman

why dont u name me the last pakistan batsmen to average 50 @ number 6

why dont u list me any pakistan batsmen in history of game to average 50

:))) :)))

[Muddaser]

:))) pakistan is full off miandad jnrs isnt it? :)))

A word of Advice.

Less laughing and more talking. You're just making yourself look silly.

And to answer your question?

We have Hasan Raza, he might not be a Miandad but he is better than Asim.

[Naveed]

:))) pakistan is full off miandad jnrs isnt it? :)))

I guess when you cling to established mediocrity and don't strive for more, these kind of comments should be expected.

[cricketOWU]

Asim Kamal is one of the few performers in the Pakistan cricket team who can keep their head in a pressure situation. He brings a calmness to the lower order and in that way he is similar to Inzimam. That is something that we as Pakistani cricket fans need to learn to value. For every flashy player, we need someone to hold the innings together. Asim Kamal is that thread. He has scored 38 or better in 10 of his 19 innings. Moreover, in almost every test match he has played, he has had atleast one significant inning. That is the consistency Pakistan needs. He averages almost 40 despite not having scored big runs. That tells you something. And for someone with his technique, temperament and consistency, big scores are just around the corner. There should be no doubt about that.

That is not to say that Hasan Raza does not deserve a chance. Just that Asim Kamal does not deserve to be dropped at this point in his career.

[shikari]

Guys

Here is my take on this subject:

Hasan Raza no doubt has been in tremendous form in the domestic competitions/Academy tours and the ongoing Aus A team game. He should be picked in the Pak squad of 15 for the England series.
PLaying Hasan Raza ahead of Asim Kamal in the test matches does not make sense to me. Asim has not bad in short test career. Infact, Asim has been in many pressure situtaions in the last year or so. PLaying in Australia against the likes of Warne, Mcgrath and company, playing in India in a pressure packed series and then playin in the West Indies with key players out. I think Asim will prove to be a better pick against England with the experience he has gained in the test cricket arena.
Hasan Raza may be a better batsman but has not played test cricket in a while. You cannot reward a player at the expense of another player who has been consistent in his work.

[Naveed]

AJ
I guess that you have no concept of the fact that young players can improve and feel that everyone should be judged based on recent performance no matter how old or talented they are?

[Naveed]

For those that say that Asim kept his head in pressure situations, please give 1 or 2 examples? And these should not involve the "pressure" of trying to avoid an innings defeat.

[Amjid Javed]

I guess that you have no concept of the fact that young players can improve and feel that everyone should be judged based on recent performance no matter how old or talented they are?

so asim cant improve? why u kicking him out?

agen hypocrycy!

[Amjid Javed]

For those that say that Asim kept his head in pressure situations, please give 1 or 2 examples? And these should not involve the "pressure" of trying to avoid an innings defeat.

kick asim out he neva wins test for pakistan..! pakistans team is littered with
match winners aint it?

funny how all pressure is on asim to win games.. why arent others performing?

:20: :20:

[Naveed]

so asim cant improve? why u kicking him out?

agen hypocrycy!

No what I am saying is that he is at an age and talent level where improvement is highly unlikely. Do you disagree?

[Naveed]

kick asim out he neva wins test for pakistan..! pakistans team is littered with
match winners aint it?

funny how all pressure is on asim to win games.. why arent others performing?

:20: :20:

Others have won tests for Pakistan. Even Sami has done that.

[Amjid Javed]

No what I am saying is that he is at an age and talent level where improvement is highly unlikely. Do you disagree?

why is he? is there sum law that says at 27 he cant get better?

:19: some proof behind ur theory please...

hasnt inzi improved in late age? :14:

[pakistani pride]

Hasan Raza has done well but Asim Kamal deserves to play versus ENG Raza should be in the squad though

[Baron]

Firstly whats all this Asim bashing. What exactly has Asim done wrong apart from looking and playing boring? The main factor is that he is solid and refrains from playing rash shots. Thats one thing the majority of the Pak batsman dont do, with the exception of Inzi and to a lesser degree Younis Khan. If i recall, its not a middle order problem Pakistan has but a top order one. If you dont believe me read Bobs latest article where he says that England start out as favourites because theres something wrong with Pakistan in test matches and its something he needs to sort out. That mafraid was an obvious reference to our pants top 3 batting order. Remember, Younis khan is a natural middle order batsman and due to our lack of quality batsman, he is being shoved up to number 3. Though he performed well against India, they clearly bowled alot worse from the last time they played us at home. England however will be a different prospect altogether.

[Amjid Javed]

Others have won tests for Pakistan. Even Sami has done that.

wow sami has contributed in 1 pakistan test win. asim made 99 v s.africa which contributed to a win. he scored 73 v india which contributed to a win.

[Naveed]

why is he? is there sum law that says at 27 he cant get better?

:19: some proof behind ur theory please...

hasnt inzi improved in late age? :14:

You do realize that he is 29 and not 27?

[Amjid Javed]

You do realize that he is 29 and not 27?

ok my mistake! even at 29 players can improve!

[Somali Pirate]

can't believe sami fans are complaining about asim.May be u should take a look at sami's performances before u go after kamal.

[MWH]

Good to know Hasan Raza is amongst the runs. He deserved an extended run a couple of years back after his performance vs the Australians, but in typical Pak fashion was discarded very soon after. I'd expect him to make the squad for the upcoming series although whether he makes it to the XI is doubtful .If he is selected it should be as a middle order bat - I wouldn't favour throwing him to open the innings as its not the role he is used to. Pakistan must play 5 bowlers which could mean taking a slight gamble with Afridi and Akmal coming in at 6 or 7. If Afridi opens, Hasan Raza could fit in at 6. But it is again questionable whether constantly changing the opening pair every series is a wise thing to do, keeping in mind Afridi has said he will not open abroad.

[Nauman]

You do realize that he is 29 and not 27?

If he only plays test cricket, he still has around 6 good years of test cricket in him and alot can be improved, most of the Australian batsmen (Martyn, Langer, Hayden) made a come back to the team at the same age and I belive they served Australia pretty well.

[Somali Pirate]

Everyone here knows raza is much better player than asim kamal.But asim kamal has done his job consistently so far so raza cannot replace him

[Nauman]

Everyone here knows raza is much better player than asim kamal.But asim kamal has done his job consistently so far so raza cannot replace him

Then why not have Younis Khan as an opener and Hassan Raza at number 3? All our openers are failures in test matches so 90 percent of the time Younis is practically opening the innings.

[Somali Pirate]

Then why not have Younis Khan as an opener and Hassan Raza at number 3? All our openers are failures in test matches so 90 percent of the time Younis is practically opening the innings.

have a look at my signature;-)

[Sheikh_Ji]

Everyone here knows raza is much better player than asim kamal.But asim kamal has done his job consistently so far so raza cannot replace him

Says who...????
You're trying to compare Hasan Raza's performances on 'A' tours and domestic cricket with Asim Kamal's performances in International matches....that's like comparing apples with oranges. Until and unless they are pitted against the same level of opposition under similar conditions no meaningful comparisons can be made between the two!

[Saj]

I think one of the issues about Hasan Raza was his attitude and the whether the hunger to succeed was there. One thing that really concerned me about Hasan was the lack of discipline, i.e. the fact that he has slept in on more than one occasion and missed team buses due to this.

However in my opinion, the lad deserves another chance but at whose expense is the question !

[Monsee]

il tell you whats next... if hasan raza doesnt perform in next 10 test and someone like shahid yousaf scores well on fringes then it will be a typical muddy post kick hasan out and play shahid yousaf....


This sounds awfully similar to someone here that we know...anyone knows who I am talking about :21:


.

[Monsee]

:))) pakistan is full off miandad jnrs isnt it? :)))

i hope hasan raza plays next 10 test and if he doesnt average 50 he shud be kicked out....

Such high expectations..?

:))) true stupidity... seems to me you think pakistan is littered with bradman

why dont u name me the last pakistan batsmen to average 50 @ number 6

why dont u list me any pakistan batsmen in history of game to average 50

:))) :)))



All this from someone who started asking for Bob's head, after just a couple of months in his office...even long before ICC trophy, you were posting anti Bob threads:9:

[Baron]

have a look at my signature;-)

You've got a point there. Considering Younis Khan is practically an opener and hes not that bad at that position, why not play him there. In that way, we can bring in Hasan Raza and give him a go.

[Amjid Javed]

Firstly whats all this Asim bashing. What exactly has Asim done wrong apart from looking and playing boring? The main factor is that he is solid and refrains from playing rash shots. Thats one thing the majority of the Pak batsman dont do, with the exception of Inzi and to a lesser degree Younis Khan. If i recall, its not a middle order problem Pakistan has but a top order one. If you dont believe me read Bobs latest article where he says that England start out as favourites because theres something wrong with Pakistan in test matches and its something he needs to sort out. That mafraid was an obvious reference to our pants top 3 batting order. Remember, Younis khan is a natural middle order batsman and due to our lack of quality batsman, he is being shoved up to number 3. Though he performed well against India, they clearly bowled alot worse from the last time they played us at home. England however will be a different prospect altogether.

boring batsmen who graft and block are seen as sinners in pakistan and see as No good. :( :(

no wonder are test batting line up is a joke on most occasions!

players like asim and may others will always be ignored due to lack of excitement! sadly Most pakistan fans just want a top six of sloggers and shot players!

[Mercenary]

Says who...????
You're trying to compare Hasan Raza's performances on 'A' tours and domestic cricket with Asim Kamal's performances in International matches....that's like comparing apples with oranges. Until and unless they are pitted against the same level of opposition under similar conditions no meaningful comparisons can be made between the two!

What about his performance three years ago vs the Aussies in Sharjah when they were the best in the world? This was a rampaging Aussie bowling attack which scythed the rest of our batsmen for next to nothing yet Hasan scored fifties in both innings!!

[Muddaser]

boring batsmen who graft and block are seen as sinners in pakistan and see as No good. :( :(

no wonder are test batting line up is a joke on most occasions!

players like asim and may others will always be ignored due to lack of excitement! sadly Most pakistan fans just want a top six of sloggers and shot players!

Is Hasan Raza a slogger?

[Sheikh_Ji]

What about his performance three years ago vs the Aussies in Sharjah when they were the best in the world? This was a rampaging Aussie bowling attack which scythed the rest of our batsmen for next to nothing yet Hasan scored fifties in both innings!!

Asim Kamal has played only ONE test against the aussies ...in far more difficult batting conditions (as compared to Sharjah) down under in Aus and scored 87 in one of the innings!

If you want to make any meaningful comparison between the two, they have to be played side by side...or have an extended run the national team. Comparisons between domestic performances against international performances are useless.

As things stand at the moment, Asim Kamal certainly does not deserve to be dropped, but he'll have to become more consistent

[Somali Pirate]

My team will solve all the problems.
Butt,Y.Khan,Raza,Inzi,Yoyo,Kamal,Kamran,Gul,Akhtar ,Rana,kaneria

At least this team has 400+ innings in them.Something sadly pakistan always lacked.Australia have been behind england everytime 450 runs were scored.If a 5 #th bowler is needed then afridi in for asim.

I just can't see brothers 400+ runs if we open with taufeeq,malik,farhat or afridi.

That's why i feel 3 top order grafters are needed.We need to grind england down

[Mercenary]

Asim Kamal has played only ONE test against the aussies ...in far more difficult batting conditions (as compared to Sharjah) down under in Aus and scored 87 in one of the innings!

Dont change the goal posts. You said Raza is being considered based on domestic and A team performances and I clarified that he had performed against the very best when they were at their best and when the bowlers of that team had their tails up.

Hasan Raza has also played only one test vs the Aussies, the test match Asim played was the best batting wicket of the lot and the Pakistan team made their best score of the series (629 runs overall) during that match. The one match Hasan played vs Aus was one of the lowest scoring test matches in Pakistans history we made a total of 424 runs in both innings!

Hasan made 29% of the teams runs in that match and Asim made 15% of the teams runs in his match! Hasan's contribution was twice as great!!

As things stand at the moment, Asim Kamal certainly does not deserve to be dropped, but he'll have to become more consistent

I agree he's done nothing to deserve being dropped but a winning team sometimes drops players who are still playing well (i.e. Aus with Bevan) in order to get even better. Our team isnt even a winning one!!

[azcali78]

This will be my team for 1st test in Multan. Bob and Inzy have said recently that they will like to attack England with Spin, so I will not be surprised if we see spin dominated attack. So Malik & Afridi or may be Mushtaq have to be in the test's. Atleast in the Multan test as it is Batting wicket, well most of the Pakistan wickets are but thats beside the point. This will be the team most likely for the first test in Multan.

Like few folks here I am feel that Hasan Raza should be given a chance but that is not possible unless Kamal fails really bad in first two tests and why drop Kamal who has done quite good.

Most of the openers in the successful sides have been intially were asked to open by the coach or the captain(Justin Langer, Amir Shoail, Saeed Anwar and more).

I am all for giving a guy a chance anywhere there is a room. If Hasan Raza is as good as he looks from A tours, why dont make him a opener. Cause that is the only slot in batting, where we need a technically correct batsman. I will not be alone in Pakpassion who will say that Pakistan's major problem is our Openers. I think Tafeeq could have, should have been a good opener in long run but sad that Bob and Inzy didnt stick with him and now he is off the radar. Butt should be given a long run we should try to find a stable partner for him and give them 10 tests to show themselves. I belive in Salu, I think this boy has what it takes to be batting lengend. Inshallah we all will see in upcoming months if he is on his way to be batting great for pakistan.

This will be my team based on what is being said in press.

1-Malik or Raza
2-Butt
3-Y Khan
4-Inzy
5-YoYo
6-Kamal
7-Afridi or Razaaq
8-Akmal
9-Sami or Gul or Rana( Based on Form in pratice matches) /or Mushtaq (if a spin attack)
10-Akhtar
11-Dani

[Geordie Ahmed]

wow sami has contributed in 1 pakistan test win. asim made 99 v s.africa which contributed to a win. he scored 73 v india which contributed to a win.

i think you'll find that is wrong and you know it :9:

[Hash]

Pak A 348 all out

Mansoor Amjad made 82

no scorecard as yet

[KaSaNoVa_G]

mansoor amjad seemz like a good all rounder...
his already picked up 5 wickets in this series.. and
now scored runz aswell...

[Naz]

Its a good score considering the start, yet still VERY dissapointing considering that this track is sooooo flat. The problem with any pakistan team is they can't get the REALLY big scores which take the opposition out of the game. Like making 500. They very rarely get the mandatory 400 score.

[Hash]

Not sure if the pitch was totally flat after it got flooded the other day.

[Waseem]

I have heard on PTV news that the match has been drawn, Australia declared their 2nd inning on 181.

[Nawazb]

http://www.pcb.com.pk/Pakistan/Scorecards/f/48/f48358.html
scores updated

[Toony™®]

http://www.pcb.com.pk/Pakistan/Scorecards/f/48/f48358.html

updated scorecard.

australia scored 181/0 - probably 1 day practice.

[Monsee]

Score updated now

Pak A: 348 All Out

Hasan out at 116, Mansoor 82

Aussie A 2nd innings: 181-0

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Pakistan/Scorecards/f/48/f48358.html

[Toony™®]

mansoor amjad got smashed a bit 0/59 off 8 overs.

[Hash]

first ODI is on the 23rd

[Nawazb]

will this squad be the same for the odis or will there be changes?

[IMMY69]

irshaad probably couldnt get it to reverse both ways due to the damp conditions.....

[yk]

Poor game for Irshaad....there was a lot of talk about him, with his speed and reversing ability...didn't do much, did he?

I guess he must learn how to swing the new ball as well, if he hasn't done so already.

I reckon Gul should have played, it would have given him more match practise to help his fitness. I really want to see Gul play in the Test Matches.

[IMMY69]

i'm sure when the conditions become drier irshaad will soon be reversing it both ways with 90mph+ deliveries!!

[Mercenary]

Gul should have played

[IMMY69]

i agree merc gul should have played...but i think the management got the weather forecast wrong..i think they expected it to be dry and that irshaad would be lethal with his reverse singers (both ways - in and out) at 90mph+....

[Imy]

Look at Gul from Bobs point of view, the uy had three stress fractures, even after a long rest he needs to brought to peak slowly there are more pratice matces to come

[Saj]

well Pakistan take the "test" series. Onwards to the ODIs :-

23 Sept 1st ODI Lahore
25 Sept 2nd ODI Lahore

27 Sept 3rd ODI Lahore

[Immy Ji]

Welldone Pakistan "A" Inshallah we'll take the ODI's too!