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  1. #721
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    It's ironic that the very arguments used to justify UK continuing to have nuclear weapons are also used in reverse to deny other states from obtaining them, and threaten them if they even think about having nuclear weapons programs.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    It's the vote on Trident Successor today.
    £178 billion cost over the expected lifetime of the new subs according to Crispin Blunt, Chair of Foreign Affairs SC.

    One crucial point that was raised was in relation to the supposed ability of the proposed subs to hide away in the oceans undetected.

    As the speaker stated, technology is advancing at such a fast rate that, in the very near future (certainly by the time these subs become operational, never mind over their 30 year odd operational life) detecting objects as large as these subs will be relatively easy no matter where, and how deep, in the oceans they might be.

    In the US, Hambling looks at the navy’s work on Low-Cost UAV Swarming Technology (LOCUST), aimed at flying thirty drones operating in synch without invidual control by this summer. “Such swarms are capable of searching large areas autonomously, making them well suited for ASW operations,” he says.

    Then there are SQUIDS – “Superconducting Quantum Interference Devices” – which are sensors delicate enough to measure the tiny magnetic fields generated in the brain. SQUIDS have up to now mainly been used in medicine. It was not possible to cart them about because they needed to be cooled with liquid nitrogen, but now micro-cyrogenic coolers are available so SQUIDS can be mounted on small drones and sent underwater.

    None of these developments, as they stand, mean that ‘boomers’ are going to become visible overnight, but the BASIC argument is that, given the exponential nature of technological change, it would be the height of wishful thinking to spend over £40 billion on four new submarines that would only enter service in the 2030’s, by which time they could be a dozen ways to track them in the ocean’s depths.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/ju...ays-new-report
    And that's just the technologies of today or the very near future. Detection capabilities in 10, 20, 30 years time, considering the speed at which technology is advancing, are probably something we haven't even imagined yet.

    Just to put it in perspective:
    30 years ago mobile phones were almost non-existent.
    The brick size phones were just starting to appear.
    The latest IBM PC had 640 KB RAM (not Mb or Gb), and a 20Mb Hard Disk!
    And the Internet as we know it today didn't exist! It's forerunner, NSFNET was just a network for interconnecting supercomputer centres at major universities to allow university researchers to exchange information more easily..

    And here they're planning to spending £178 billion pounds on submarines that will be built in the next few years but will supposedly be capable of evading detection even in the 2050's and beyond?
    Last edited by Yossarian; 18th July 2016 at 19:38.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  3. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    It's ironic that the very arguments used to justify UK continuing to have nuclear weapons are also used in reverse to deny other states from obtaining them, and threaten them if they even think about having nuclear weapons programs.
    Britain is a progressive democratic country with a longer history of having wmds and responsibility with that power

  4. #724
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    Poor Jezza.

    Three-quarters of Labour MPs defy Jeremy Corbyn to back nuclear submarines


    Deep splits within the Labour party burst into the open again tonight after three-quarters of their MPs defied Jeremy Corbyn to back the renewal of Britain's nuclear submarines.

    A total of 140 backed the Government on the crunch issue, with just 47 - including Mr Corbyn - voting against.

    Shadow Defence Secretary Clive Lewis and Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry were among the 40 Labour MPs who abstained.

    Overall, MPs voted by 472 to 117 in favour of renewing the Vanguard class nuclear submarines.

    The rebellion came as one former Labour frontbencher openly accused his leader of trying to split the party by defying official party policy and backing unilateral disarmament.

    In an emotional speech during the six-hour Trident debate, Copeland MP Jamie Reed said: "For the first time I think ever we have witnessed the leader of the Labour party stand at the Despatch Box of this house and argue against the policy of the party that he leads.

    "This is unprecedented, moreover this reckless, juvenile, narcissistic irresponsibility makes me fearful for the future of the party that I love. The sheer stupidity of this approach should be dragged out into the light and seen for what it is, because not only is renewal Labour party policy, it is the settled will of the country and every parliamentary decision relating to it will have been taken by 2020.

    "Further to this, the British people will not vote for unilateral disarmament and that reality has to be dealt with. Because a policy of unilateral nuclear disarmament is a bar to becoming elected. A democratic socialist party with this policy can campaign to rid this country of poverty, cam campaign restore the National Health Service, to rebuild our economy, and to make sure that every man, woman and child in every community in our country enjoys equality of opportunity. But campaigning is all that it will ever do because a policy of unilateral nuclear disarmament will ensure that we will never govern.

    "This logic is inescapable and the leader of the Labour party knows it. And so we're forced to accept that the refusal to accept the established policy of the Labour party and to acknowledge the achievements of the greatest Labour government is not just a knowing embrace of electoral defeat, but a very real, a very studied and a very determined desire to split this Labour party."


    Mr Corbyn had argued that renewing Britain's nuclear submarines contravened the country's responsibilities under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. He said the UK could set a global example by giving up its nuclear weapons.

    He also confirmed that if he became Prime Minister, he would never authorise the use of nuclear weapons.

    Mr Corbyn said: "I would not take a decision that would kill millions of innocent people. I don't believe the threat of mass murder is a legitimate way of going about international relations."

    Tonight's rebellion is further evidence of the civil war currently waging within the Labour party.

    Former Shadow Cabinet members Angela Eagle and Owen Smith - who both backed Trident renewal tonight - are both challenging Mr Corbyn for the leadership.

    Talks were still ongoing between the pair tonight about one of them becoming a 'unity candidate' to take on the leader in a straight shoot-out.

    It is thought that the candidate with the least backing among Labour MPs by 5pm tomorrow will drop out. Most observers expect that will be Ms Eagle.



    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...ear-submarines

  5. #725
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    .

  6. #726
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  7. #727
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    i think its becoming clear now that corbyn is the only electable leader in the uk for anyone conscionable. thankfully it looks like despite the complete and absolute lack of understanding of their constituent voters, most labour mp's will be outnumbered by the people they have pledged to represent, in which they have wholesale failed.

    i think its extraordinarily clear they have absolutely no idea what the british people want.

  8. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    £178 billion cost over the expected lifetime of the new subs according to Crispin Blunt, Chair of Foreign Affairs SC.

    One crucial point that was raised was in relation to the supposed ability of the proposed subs to hide away in the oceans undetected.
    Submarines are no easier to find now than in 1996. The Russians deploy hunter-killer boats outside Faslane to see where our Vanguard boats go, and we do it to them. But they are hard to track because they are so quiet.

    The alternative is static ICBM sites which are very obvious and can be taken out by a first strike on British soil.

    Or we could deploy tac-nukes on the two new carriers and air-drop them from the F-35s, but such systems are vulnerable to Submarines and air defences.

    Successor is still the best option.

    The only way to reduce the number of weapons is international treaties such as START. Reagan got a bad press, but he halved the number of warheads in the US and Soviet arsenals.

  9. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    i think its becoming clear now that corbyn is the only electable leader in the uk for anyone conscionable.
    He is not electable. The man has no skills to lead, apart from a few pretty words. The first duty of a PM is to protect the people and he would surrender to any threat rather than compromise his precious pacifism.

    Putin is licking his lips at the thought of a continued Corbyn Labour leadership and I have no doubt that Momentum has been infiltrated by the FSB.

    May on the other hand has shown the
    moral strength I look for in a leader.

  10. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Submarines are no easier to find now than in 1996. The Russians deploy hunter-killer boats outside Faslane to see where our Vanguard boats go, and we do it to them. But they are hard to track because they are so quiet.

    The alternative is static ICBM sites which are very obvious and can be taken out by a first strike on British soil.

    Or we could deploy tac-nukes on the two new carriers and air-drop them from the F-35s, but such systems are vulnerable to Submarines and air defences.

    Successor is still the best option.

    The only way to reduce the number of weapons is international treaties such as START. Reagan got a bad press, but he halved the number of warheads in the US and Soviet arsenals.
    As you've (rightly) pointed out, the non-submarine options have already become vulnerable due to the reasons you've listed.

    So currently, yes, the submarine option is still (theoretically) effective and viable. However, as the rest of the post you've quoted indicated (and which you've omitted from your quote) the submarine option will also become vulnerable, due to the advances in submarine detection technology, by the time these new subs are deployed never mind over their operational lifetime.

    As for the need for Britain to keep an independent nuclear option from that of the USA at a cost of over £178 billion, this ignores the fact that the proposed UK option incorporates a considerable amount of U.S. technology and therefore relies on the USA for maintenance to some extent and thus continuing to be effective. The idea that there will be a possible future scenario, especially after Brexit, whereby the UK will be firing off it's nukes without the USA having a say, is completely blinkered.

    Germany does not have nukes. Don't see the Germans clamouring to have nukes to keep themselves safe. Is Germany more likely to be attacked than the UK by a foreign nuclear power?


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  11. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Germany does not have nukes. Don't see the Germans clamouring to have nukes to keep themselves safe. Is Germany more likely to be attacked than the UK by a foreign nuclear power?
    Yes, the are right in the path of the Russians. They have demothballed their Leopard 2 MBT fleet as Putin has tripled his defence budget and become more aggressive.

    They have American tac-nukes on their soil, I believe, or at least would allow them to be deployed in short order in a Level 5 emergency.

    They shelter under the US / UK / French nuclear umbrella. If we were to disarm they would have to think hard about credible deterrence.

  12. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Yes, the are right in the path of the Russians. They have demothballed their Leopard 2 MBT fleet as Putin has tripled his defence budget and become more aggressive.

    They have American tac-nukes on their soil, I believe, or at least would allow them to be deployed in short order in a Level 5 emergency.

    They shelter under the US / UK / French nuclear umbrella. If we were to disarm they would have to think hard about credible deterrence.
    No, they shelter under the U.S. umbrella, just as, as per my previous comments re-U.S. technology incorporated into the new setup, the UK will be doing despite (supposedly) having her own nuclear weapons on the new nuclear subs (which will likely be easily detectable by the time they become operational, but certainly during their operational lifetime - the point you, and supporters of the new subs, continuously keep ignoring and sidestepping).


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  13. #733
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    Robert like the Conservatives and Hard Right Labour utilising either knowingly or ignorantly a leaf from Nazi propaganda book

    Name:  Goering.jpg
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  14. #734
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    Don't think UK should give up its nuclear option unless it's nuclear disarmament all round.

    But I am not in favour of trident either, its an expensive option that we will never employ.

  15. #735
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    Re the £25 registration fee and the banning of the £3 voters had Corbyn been in the room when the vote at the Labour NEC was taken these measures would not have gone through as he had the deciding vote. But he had left the building early. That could be a costly mistake.

  16. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    No, they shelter under the U.S. umbrella, just as, as per my previous comments re-U.S. technology incorporated into the new setup, the UK will be doing despite (supposedly) having her own nuclear weapons on the new nuclear subs (which will likely be easily detectable by the time they become operational, but certainly during their operational lifetime - the point you, and supporters of the new subs, continuously keep ignoring and sidestepping).
    What, so the British and French SSBNs don't factor into NATO, Russian and Chinese planning? Nonsense.

    Neither can I take credibly the threat of some imaginary future detection technology.
    You might as well say ICBMs are redundant because we will be able to teleport nukes or create black holes over enemy cities soon. Let's deal with reality.

  17. #737
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    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post
    Robert like the Conservatives and Hard Right Labour utilising either knowingly or ignorantly a leaf from Nazi propaganda book
    Ok, if you want to evoke Reichmarshall Goering - the pacifism of Chamberlain and Halifax would have seen Britain reduced to a Nazi client state in 1940. Totalitarianism would hold sway across Europe to this day. Fortunately the hawks took over HM Gov, that horror was beaten down at dreadful cost, and democracy restored to Europe.

    There are regimes out there which oppose us, point ICBMs at our cities, and they only respect strength. Pacifism to them is weakness to be exploited. Mrs May knows this and I'm glad.

  18. #738
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    What, so the British and French SSBNs don't factor into NATO, Russian and Chinese planning? Nonsense.
    Yes, sure. The Russians and Chinese are quaking in their boots at the thought of Britain and France letting off nukes in their direction without Uncle Sam's say so whilst Uncle Sam sits on the bylines and watches.

    Neither can I take credibly the threat of some imaginary future detection technology.
    Imaginary future detection technology? You obviously missed this from the earlier post.

    In the US, Hambling looks at the navy’s work on Low-Cost UAV Swarming Technology (LOCUST), aimed at flying thirty drones operating in synch without invidual control by this summer. “Such swarms are capable of searching large areas autonomously, making them well suited for ASW operations,” he says.

    Then there are SQUIDS – “Superconducting Quantum Interference Devices” – which are sensors delicate enough to measure the tiny magnetic fields generated in the brain. SQUIDS have up to now mainly been used in medicine. It was not possible to cart them about because they needed to be cooled with liquid nitrogen, but now micro-cyrogenic coolers are available so SQUIDS can be mounted on small drones and sent underwater.
    And that's just a couple of examples. There are many more.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  19. #739
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    The feeble parrot aka Angela Eagle has just withdrawn from the Labour leadership contest leaving Owen Smith as the sole challenger to Corbyn.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  20. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    The feeble parrot aka Angela Eagle has just withdrawn from the Labour leadership contest leaving Owen Smith as the sole challenger to Corbyn.
    Stalking horse, as I predicted.

    I am disappointed that some of the big beasts - Alan Johnson, Chuka Umuna, Hilary Benn, Andy Burnham are ducking for cover and leaving Saving Labour to second-stringers.

    Maybe they are biding their time until the Party splits.

  21. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Yes, sure. The Russians and Chinese are quaking in their boots at the thought of Britain and France letting off nukes in their direction without Uncle Sam's say so whilst Uncle Sam sits on the bylines and watches.

    Imaginary future detection technology? You obviously missed this from the earlier post.

    And that's just a couple of examples. There are many more.
    Uncle Sam might withdraw from NATO. This is the point of the independent deterrent. As for detection systems, submarines were not rendered obsolete by the invention of ASDIC or homing torpedoes. The submariners will develop countermeasures. Different hull coatings, jamming systems, decoys. This is the nature of war technology.

  22. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Stalking horse, as I predicted.

    I am disappointed that some of the big beasts - Alan Johnson, Chuka Umuna, Hilary Benn, Andy Burnham are ducking for cover and leaving Saving Labour to second-stringers.

    Maybe they are biding their time until the Party splits.
    Just for a second imagine Owen Smith winning and Corbyn plus his supporters accepting defeat and getting behind Smith. Can you honestly see the Blairite crowd, ie most of the 'big beasts' you mention, embracing Smith fully and not doing something similar to Smith (albeit to a lesser extent), a year or two down the road, than what they've been doing to Corbyn for the last 10 months - in fact from the moment Corbyn's victory was announced and most of them resigned their shadow ministerial posts on the spot?


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  23. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    He is not electable. The man has no skills to lead, apart from a few pretty words. The first duty of a PM is to protect the people and he would surrender to any threat rather than compromise his precious pacifism.

    Putin is licking his lips at the thought of a continued Corbyn Labour leadership and I have no doubt that Momentum has been infiltrated by the FSB.

    May on the other hand has shown the
    moral strength I look for in a leader.
    he has generated more excitement and motivation amongst the electorate than any other leader i can remember. the numbers will come out soon enough, but if you think hes not electable, the corrupt, self serving, disingenuous alternatives certainly arent.

    putin doesnt give a crap, and is not going to risk everyone else in the world (usa) nuking him at first strike. a nuclear deterrant is no such thing in the modern world, it isnt 1947.

    good for you that youve found a leader you can bet on, she certainly isnt one that anyone voted for thats for sure. her record as home secretary has been horrendous with a legacy of failed xenophobic policies that have ushered along this path of disintegration. more of the same will lead us further down the same negative trajectory that the EU has adopted - the status quo is the real unseen risk - the evidence is everywhere, most obviously in the referendum.

  24. #744
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    I honestly don't feel that enough areas of the country would agree with Corbyn's politics for him to ever come close to winning a general election.

    Generation Y voters, students, progressive 20somethings and hippies do not have a huge influence on the overall numbers - they are merely the most vocal on social media - as we saw with the EU Referendum.

    Just the other day a poll showed the Conservatives 10 points ahead of Labour.

    When push comes to shove, Jeremy will not win enough seats.

  25. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Just for a second imagine Owen Smith winning and Corbyn plus his supporters accepting defeat and getting behind Smith. Can you honestly see the Blairite crowd, ie most of the 'big beasts' you mention, embracing Smith fully and not doing something similar to Smith (albeit to a lesser extent), a year or two down the road, than what they've been doing to Corbyn for the last 10 months - in fact from the moment Corbyn's victory was announced and most of them resigned their shadow ministerial posts on the spot?
    Sure, if he is competent.

  26. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I honestly don't feel that enough areas of the country would agree with Corbyn's politics for him to ever come close to winning a general election.

    Generation Y voters, students, progressive 20somethings and hippies do not have a huge influence on the overall numbers - they are merely the most vocal on social media - as we saw with the EU Referendum.
    .
    Most of them seem to be concentrated in the South East. I don't think there are many swing seats there available for LAB to make real gains. They would do better to focus on getting left-leaning Scotland back from the SNP.

  27. #747
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    Membership way over Blair Labour peak of 1997.

    Whatever self appointed experts, commentariat etc tell you there is some correlation between membership numbers and popular vote in a General Election
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 20th July 2016 at 23:57.

  28. #748
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    Thought about paying £25 to vote yesterday but decided with great sadness that Labour is a dead loss now. Will probably vote Lib Dem next time - Labour have no chance in my new constituency anyway.

  29. #749
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    It looks like Corbyn will easily win the leadership contest.

    LABOUR LEADERSHIP BETTING: Jeremy Corbyn looks unbeatable now that Eagle has dropped out

    Jeremy Corbyn's odds of keeping the Labour leadership in the September 24 party election have improved dramatically since rival Angela Eagle dropped out of the race on Tuesday.

    Eagle received support from 70 parliamentarians in the first round of MP voting, but Owen Smith managed to get 90. As the incumbent, Corbyn is automatically on the ballot following a controversial ruling by the National Executive Committee last week.

    Corbyn and Smith are now the only candidates left, and bookmakers have decided that between the two Corbyn is the strong favourite to win.

    This could have something to do with a YouGov Labour member poll released on Tuesday which suggested that Corbyn had more support than both Smith and Eagle put together, with 54% compared to Eagle's 21% and Smith's 15%.

    Despite the poll, Smith's chances could be worse: many bookmakers give him odds of 2/1 to win the election, perhaps acknowledging that Smith will now shore up the voters who would have voted for Eagle.

    There is also the question whether the £25 ($33) voting fee for any Labour members who joined after January 12 will help or hinder Corbyn, with some suspecting that many Corbyn supporters will not be willing to pay that much if they think Corbyn will win anyway.

    Smith, meanwhile, is having to counter claims that his past as a lobbyist for pharmaceutical giant Pfizer means he advocates the privatisation of the NHS. Smith called the accusations "complete nonsense," according to the BBC, and that he supported "a fully publicly funded NHS."


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/labour...ops-out-2016-7

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  31. #751
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    The Indi reckons that some of the 172 are going to split from Labour, and ask the Speaker if they can be HM Opposition.

    Strange days indeed......

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    @Robert,
    Have you seen Peter Oborne's column today?

    He basically argues - rather like Peter Hitchens - that both major parties have become an inseparable Blairite blob.

    This includes a Parliamentary Labour Party which largely despises working class people, holds them in contempt and is more comfortable at dinner parties in Islington than its in constituencies.

    He argues that Corbyn will smash Smith to pieces in the leadership election and will then have a bigger mandate to follow a more radical agenda, on Israel, on Saudi Arabia and on things like university fees.

    The thing is, that may just play well in the areas left behind which voted for Brexit. They abandoned Labour's Remain directive en masse because they feel that they have nothing.

    A genuinely different Labour party - perhaps without the Blairites - might sweep the country outside London and the home counties rather like the SNP in Scotland. But they could not rule without the SNP north of the border and probably the Liberal Democrats in London.

    My own suspicion is that a New Labour splinter of most of the Parliamentary Labour Party would probably go into coalition with the Conservatives at the drop of a hat.

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    An excellent in depth interview of Corbyn conducted by Peter Oborne and David Hearst:
    http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/mi...view-742537858

  34. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The Indi reckons that some of the 172 are going to split from Labour, and ask the Speaker if they can be HM Opposition.

    Strange days indeed......
    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    My own suspicion is that a New Labour splinter of most of the Parliamentary Labour Party would probably go into coalition with the Conservatives at the drop of a hat.
    Leading moderates have told The Telegraph they are looking at plans to set up their own “alternative Labour” in a “semi-split” of the party if Mr Corbyn remains in post.

    The move would see them create their own shadow cabinet and even elect a leader within Parliament to rival Mr Corbyn’s front bench and take on the Tories.

    They are considering going through the courts to get the right to use Labour’s name and assets including property owned by the party across the country.

    They would also approach John Bercow, the Commons Speaker, and argue that having more MPs than Mr Corbyn means they should be named the official opposition.

    [.......]

    Support for the move is not universal, with some Labour moderates saying a legal challenge would be unlikely to succeed and warning creating a de facto alternative leader would be too provocative

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...lternative-gr/
    They've tried every dirty trick in the book thus far.
    * From Angela Eagle's constituency office window being bricked (- which it wasn't),
    * to Angela Eagle supposedly being advised by the police to not hold any CLP surgeries - where the police have denied giving such advice
    * to Angela Eagle claiming a meeting of hers was cancelled by a hotel due to threats against her - but it turns out that the hotel cancelled the meeting because it has a policy of not allowing political meetings
    * to alleged homophobic comments made to Angela Eagle during her CLP meeting - where it turned that Angela Eagle was not in any such meeting, quite apart from the fact that most of the Committee members supposedly making these homophobic comments towards Angela Eagle were at the wedding of the daughter of a member of the committee - who was marrying her girlfriend.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  35. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    @Robert,
    Have you seen Peter Oborne's column today?

    He basically argues - rather like Peter Hitchens - that both major parties have become an inseparable Blairite blob.

    This includes a Parliamentary Labour Party which largely despises working class people, holds them in contempt and is more comfortable at dinner parties in Islington than its in constituencies.
    Hmmm. The Blairites are not the same as the Tories IMO. They doubled the NHS budget, and invested heavily in education, for instances. The Tories hated Blair. The New Labour Party will ally with the Lib Dems and perhaps absorb them.

    I think the Corbynista Left has contempt for the white working class, who will not vote for unlimited immigration and unilateralism.

  36. #756
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    i was talking to a labour insider the other day, ex youth wing who has just shifted over to the private sector. she said she voted for corbyn and was not a blairite, and is a product of the new fabians. i dont know if i believe her when she mentioned her past allegiances, but what was interesting was that she insisted that the coup is not blairite, but genuinely because corbyn and his team were unworkable, were unapproachable, shot from the hip and contravened plp policy at a whim.

    again, dont know if true or not, but it was interesting to hear an inside opinion from someone who on hte face of it is not incentivised one way or the other any more.

    more interesting is just how much public funding goes towards bs jobs in niche consultative roles that do nothing other than give someone money for speaking without intelligence.

  37. #757
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    Fabians were one of groups said to be behind coup.
    The Blair project purged Labour top echelons/PLP so you were accelerated if you were LFI or middle class metropolitan liberal numpty who would appeal to Tories rather than traditional Labour vote
    Unfortunately that has made the Party unworkable for Corbyn in his first year
    The coup plotters have dug their own grave , because their antics have brought things to a head and they will now be purged from the Party.
    The recent public meetings over the weekend have again demonstrated the massive depth and breadth of support Corbyn enjoys outside of the supposed metropolitan London heartlands.
    Whilst Owen Smith could only attract a crowd of 100 to his event in Liverpool on Saturday, Corbyn attracted thousands to several events in Hull, Leeds, Newcastle with people being locked out such was the demand.
    Last edited by Abdullah719; 1st August 2016 at 03:01.

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    Finally I'll just leave these two charts here. IT demonstrates the complete myopia of the Establishment media to be able to process facts. Cognitive dissonance.

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  39. #759
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    Scenes in Liverpool tonight. Estimates of 10,000+

    This is a City not unused to massive crowds !



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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    i was talking to a labour insider the other day, ex youth wing who has just shifted over to the private sector. she said she voted for corbyn and was not a blairite, and is a product of the new fabians. i dont know if i believe her when she mentioned her past allegiances, but what was interesting was that she insisted that the coup is not blairite, but genuinely because corbyn and his team were unworkable, were unapproachable, shot from the hip and contravened plp policy at a whim.
    Of course not. Plenty of Labour left MPs oppose Mr Corbyn. The Corbynistas use "Blairites" to mean anyone who disagrees with them.

    Conference should be an interesting watch this year......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Of course not. Plenty of Labour left MPs oppose Mr Corbyn. The Corbynistas use "Blairites" to mean anyone who disagrees with them.

    Conference should be an interesting watch this year......
    in all honesty though, it is difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. one side will claim that blairism is the excuse for anyone who disagrees with them, the other will claim inelctibility despite widespread public support because corporate sponsors needs aren't met.

    i dont believe my friend. her whole career, like most people in politics is based on little intelligence, little value add and flying around the world to 'conferences' on tax payer tabs. but its difficult to know exactly what is the truth, other than the whole system is dysfunctional, corrupt and despicable.

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    Hopefully after Conference we will see the policies of the Corbynist Labour Party enshrined in in policy, such as unilateral disarmament and nationalising the energy companies and the railways.

    I expect the split to occur then or soon after. Some of the rebel MPs won't wait to be deselected. They will form a new party or quit. Seema Malhotra could follow Oona King back to industry, for example. Sadly I can see a lot of the big brains being lost to Labour.

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    im afraid given what has happened since the blair years and after, those big brains really arent that big. i would imagine its a very good thing to clear the decks and try to build a new politic that speaks to the people. the conservatives are there only by default. their economic policies are the the least bad of the lot, but outside of that their social responsibility and morality is as filthy as everyone elses. its a golden opportunity for labour to reconstruct british politics, and parliament is there for the taking. but they wont do it by using a mantra of 'same same but different' which is what seems to define the rebels.

    the sooner they are gone, the better for the country in my opinion.

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    Jeepers that's a quite coruscating way to talk about a 'friend'. :-p

    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post

    i dont believe my friend. her whole career, like most people in politics is based on little intelligence, little value add and flying around the world to 'conferences' on tax payer tabs. but its difficult to know exactly what is the truth, other than the whole system is dysfunctional, corrupt and despicable.

  45. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post
    Jeepers that's a quite coruscating way to talk about a 'friend'. :-p
    im her friend, not her employer.

  46. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    im afraid given what has happened since the blair years and after, those big brains really arent that big.
    Apart from Seamus Milne (First in PPE at Oxford, like Cameron and Ed Balls) the Labour left have no brains trust either.

    Labour used to be the brainy party. Lord Healey must be spinning in his grave.

  47. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Hopefully after Conference we will see the policies of the Corbynist Labour Party enshrined in in policy, such as unilateral disarmament and nationalising the energy companies and the railways.

    I expect the split to occur then or soon after. Some of the rebel MPs won't wait to be deselected. They will form a new party or quit. Seema Malhotra could follow Oona King back to industry, for example. Sadly I can see a lot of the big brains being lost to Labour.
    I'm a One Nation Tory, and I would vote for re-nationalising the railways in a heartbeat. I genuinely cannot see a single positive that came from privatisation. Not one.

  48. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I'm a One Nation Tory, and I would vote for re-nationalising the railways in a heartbeat. I genuinely cannot see a single positive that came from privatisation. Not one.
    I can. The services are more reliable and the staff are smarter dressed and more pleasant. BR was truly awful.

    I would not be averse to renationalisation but it would have to be funded properly, and being British we won't do that. Everything we do is a compromise.

  49. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Hopefully after Conference we will see the policies of the Corbynist Labour Party........
    We have a new policy Robert. It sounds completely legit and 100% workable too.

    No private sector influence on the NHS either - I wonder if this means he is going to sack the majority or GPs and Dentists then who are of course self employed private contractors who work in the NHS.

    Jeremy Corbyn will set out a 10-point vision for the future of Britain, promising full employment throughout the UK’s regions and nations brought about in part by £500bn of public spending.

    Speaking on Thursday in Dagenham, Essex, he will set out the principles of his leadership before the first head-to-head encounter with his challenger, Owen Smith, at a live debate in Cardiff in the evening.

    Corbyn’s pledges are expected to include bringing about full employment, job security through stronger employment rights and an NHS free of any private sector influence.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...dership-speech

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    Been some huge wins for Corbyn in recent days in the High Court and on the NEC

    In the High Court new members excluded by Party Machine (still heavily Blairite) from voting for him have had votes re-instated

    On the NEC the 6 'Left Slate' candidates swept the election with Progress/Labour First/Zionist faction completely obliterated

    Leading bookmakers now have Jeremy Corbyn as FAVOURITE to be next PM

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    As I predicted, Andy Burnham is running for Manchester Major. I wondered why he had not joined the rebel MPs. He was biding his time while not alienating the Corbynistas in Manchester.

    Now even Tom Waston has stuck the knife in, saying that old Trots are influencing young Corbynistas. As a result, I expect a Deputy Leadership challenge to deselect him next.

    Mr Corybn will win again and the PLP will still not cooperate. Result - continued internecine warfare, Labour languishing in the polls, and no effective HM Opposition.

    What a mess.

  52. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    We have a new policy Robert. It sounds completely legit and 100% workable too.

    No private sector influence on the NHS either - I wonder if this means he is going to sack the majority or GPs and Dentists then who are of course self employed private contractors who work in the NHS.
    Doubt it - the policymakers may not even know this. He's talking about the services which are being supplied by private contractors for the NHS, such as MRI imaging. Also ancillary services such as works, cleaning, laundry, kitchens and porterage, currently supplied by big FM providers such as Carillion and Mitie.

  53. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post

    Now even Tom Waston has stuck the knife in, saying that old Trots are influencing young Corbynistas.
    Here we go:

    Some months ago, I described Momentum as ‘a bit of a rabble’, and although leading lights in Momentum privately acknowledged to me that they were a bit of a rabble, it caused great offence to everyone that had signed up to Momentum. Some of these people are deeply interested in political change, in building a more equal society, and are just on a journey in politics that they’re new to, and I don’t want them to feel that I’m labelling them because I’m not. But there are some old hands twisting young arms in this process, and I’m under no illusions about what’s going on. They are caucusing and factionalising and putting pressure where they can, and that’s how Trotsky entryists operate. Sooner or later, that always end up in disaster. It always ends up destroying the institutions that are vulnerable, unless you deal with it.

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    I can't see Corbyn's Labour winning 326 seats in a General Election. They are too disjointed and there is no consistent message. Regardless of their respective politics, the other parties generally get behind a collective message:

    Conservatives - austerity, tax cuts for the rich, strong military, small state, minimal benefits
    SNP - end austerity, open door immigration, pro-welfare, independence for Scotland
    UKIP - leave the EU, points-based immigration system, pre-war White British values
    Green - environmentally friendly, nuclear disarmament, basic income for all citizens, pacifism
    DUP - Northern Irish Unionism, Christianity, very conservative values
    BNP - White supremacy, deport non-whites, homophobia, death penalty

    Look at how many right-wing values are so broadly represented above. It is quite depressing. The right is absolutely on the rise in the UK, in England and Wales in particular, and a strong centre-left / left-wing party needs to temper this rise, and moderate the political landscape somewhat.

    What is Labour's message? Nobody knows.

    That is the failure of Corbyn's leadership.
    Last edited by James; 9th August 2016 at 18:13.

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    I'd argue that the Tories are not for strong defence, which they savagely curtailed in 2010. Otherwise an absorbing post @James. Thatcher dragged the axis of UK politics to the right. To get elected, Labout had to copy some of her ideas.

    I watched the speeches on BBC Parliament this evening. Mr Corbyn talked a lot about Labour history - it all seemed to be about things he didn't like, rather than future policy. Mr Smith seemed to have a coherent narrative of what to do next.

    I didn't find either gentleman very convincing, sadly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I can't see Corbyn's Labour winning 326 seats in a General Election. They are too disjointed and there is no consistent message. Regardless of their respective politics, the other parties generally get behind a collective message:

    Conservatives - austerity, tax cuts for the rich, strong military, small state, minimal benefits
    SNP - end austerity, open door immigration, pro-welfare, independence for Scotland
    UKIP - leave the EU, points-based immigration system, pre-war White British values
    Green - environmentally friendly, nuclear disarmament, basic income for all citizens, pacifism
    DUP - Northern Irish Unionism, Christianity, very conservative values
    BNP - White supremacy, deport non-whites, homophobia, death penalty

    Look at how many right-wing values are so broadly represented above. It is quite depressing. The right is absolutely on the rise in the UK, in England and Wales in particular, and a strong centre-left / left-wing party needs to temper this rise, and moderate the political landscape somewhat.

    What is Labour's message? Nobody knows.

    That is the failure of Corbyn's leadership.
    That shows why corbyn is needed to provide an alternative.

    It's unfair to blame corbyn, he's trying to change and bring about a unifying message, it's the PLP holding everyone else hostage and not getting on board. After this leadership battle, labour will take a jump to the left. It's quite telling that Owen Smith is trying to portray himself as the man from the left like corbyn but more electable.

    Labour prior to corbyn was Tory lite, they are all for the same policies just dished out slightly differently. Some may find revealing that prior to Corbyn, labour voted to abstain, yes abstain the vote on austerity cuts. You would have thought that a party claiming to look out for the working class would have a radically different agenda to stop their supporters suffering. The the PLP wonders why their traditional voters deserted them. They maybe poor but not stupid!

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    couldnt find a more relevant place to put this:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37029915

    v sad news of course.

    but i wonder if his estate will be subject to the inheritance tax that the rest of us are subject to, or will the main parties continue to allow loopholes in trust law survive for the super rich?

    i wonder if corbyn would allow for that?

  58. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    As I predicted, Andy Burnham is running for Manchester Major. I wondered why he had not joined the rebel MPs. He was biding his time while not alienating the Corbynistas in Manchester.

    Now even Tom Waston has stuck the knife in, saying that old Trots are influencing young Corbynistas. As a result, I expect a Deputy Leadership challenge to deselect him next.

    Mr Corybn will win again and the PLP will still not cooperate. Result - continued internecine warfare, Labour languishing in the polls, and no effective HM Opposition.

    What a mess.
    I take a longer term view.

    As you know, I'm a One Nation Tory who is probably happier with a rightist Labour government than under a spiv like George Osborne. I completely disavow austerity and I think it is the job of the Conservative Party to create a ladder of upward mobility through Grammar Schools, the Direct Grant system of private school scholarships and free university education for 20% of the population.

    I'd rather have 20% of young people getting proper degrees fully paid for than 50% getting spurious and pointless qualifications but paying 9,000 pounds for the dubious privilege.

    I see being in government from now until around 2023 (when Brexit has blown over and mature free trade agreements are in place) as being a bad thing. The economy will be turbulent because Messrs Juncker et al will not allow the future UK trade agreements to be negotiated prior to EU exit.

    I like Theresa May, but I think she will preside over the destruction of the Conservative party for that reason. And Corbyn unwittingly keeps Labour unelectable but also effectively untainted by that Brexit economic fallout.

    Meanwhile Andy Burnham, who is the highest calibre politician in the land, keeps his reputation and brand intact as the first democratically elected Mayor of Manchester, where he is electorally unassailable.

    Longer term this is good for Labour and great for Andy Burnham.

  59. #779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I take a longer term view.

    As you know, I'm a One Nation Tory who is probably happier with a rightist Labour government than under a spiv like George Osborne. I completely disavow austerity and I think it is the job of the Conservative Party to create a ladder of upward mobility through Grammar Schools, the Direct Grant system of private school scholarships and free university education for 20% of the population.

    I'd rather have 20% of young people getting proper degrees fully paid for than 50% getting spurious and pointless qualifications but paying 9,000 pounds for the dubious privilege.
    Hoorah!

    And yes, I agree about the grammar schools - the best ever tool for getting working class kids like me into meaningful university degree courses.

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    Is austerity even hitting GCHQ trolling budget ?

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    The most popular Labour politician in the country speaks......

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...n-tells-labour


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    He only won a mandate because of the Corbyn effect.

    Indeed his 'popularity' was put in perspective when less than a year after Sadiq's General Election win in Tooting by a 2k majority, the unknown Dr Rosena Allin-Khan won a Tooting majority of 6k under Corbyns leadership.

    Of course the Mainstream Media with it's Establishment shills won't let mere facts get in the way of their chosen narrative. Just a shame when people who would presumably regard themselves as intelligent, media savvy, independent thinkers fall for the hogwash meant to convince the illinformed/uneducated masses.
    Last edited by s28; 21st August 2016 at 20:17.

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    Sadiq Khan is showing that mainstream Labour has completely failed to learn the lessons of Brexit.

    The whole point is that the Labour establishment sneered at Brexit as a Little Englander policy of racism, and succeeded in muzzling Corbyn who was a traditional left-wing Labour politician like Tony Benn and Peter Shore who also opposed the EU.

    But Benn and Shore and the muzzled version of Corbyn were actually more in tune with mainstream Labour voters in opposing EU membership.

    And the Labour establishment needs to wake up and embrace its own voters before the voters abandon them.

    You can't hold your own voters in contempt.

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    .

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    Corbyn today in supposed 'UKIP' Stoke



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    Even The Telegraph (known usually as The Torygraph due their pro-Tory party bias) seemed taken by it



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    It's amazing how quickly politicians show utter contempt for the voters/party members when the results don't go their way.


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    Alan Johnson is one of the neocon brigade. A really dark time when such neocons are welcome/condoned as part of Labour Party.

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    this party has confirmed itslef as being a complete joke and totaly unelectable.

    "Fourteen Labour MPs who quit frontbench posts this summer in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's leadership have said they could return if the party re-elected him in the current leadership election."

    they cant be serious. how can anyone take these traitorous idiots seriously? do they have absolutely no self respect? and of course, predictably given this level of self respect:

    "Ian Murray, who resigned as shadow Scottish secretary, described the plan for MPs to elect the shadow cabinet as a sign that Mr Corbyn's opponents "are willing to meet the leader halfway if he is serious about uniting the party".
    "He has to take that olive branch, he has to grab it with both hands and he has to try to unite the parliamentary party and the entire Labour movement."
    Mr Murray said that - if elections for the cabinet were held - he "would be thinking about putting my name forward".
    But he said there had to be "some kind of conditions attached".
    "One of them is no deselection [of MPs]. The second one I think is clarity about what the party within a party, Momentum, is there for."

    no deselection? what if thats what constituents want? its a disgrace.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37400280

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    You don't have to do much digging on any of these so-called Labour MPs who oppose Corbyn. They are part of the 1% / Neocon HJS / Labour Friends of Israel brigades.

    ex-UK Ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray neatly sums them up :-


    "If the fault line for the Tories is Europe, for Labour it is the Middle East. Those opposing Corbyn are defined by their enthusiasm for bombing campaigns that kill Muslim children."


    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...aq-war-stupid/

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    probably fair enough, but the failed and stupid coup earlier this year, and now the proposed resurrection of them shows just how pervasive this element is within the party, which proves the point i think - i still think that corbyns social (not economic) policies are the most defensible of all on show, but its impossible to take this filth along side him - i can understand how he feels he has no choice, but if nothing else, its criminally negligent and anti-democratic for the national executive committee to essentially forbid constituents from de-selecting mp's that they feel are either traitors or (less emotionally) failing in their duty of care to represent the voters' opinions.

    its a joke. unfortunately the power grab and xenophobia of the tory party, fuelled by both new labour inertia and paranoia about staving off attacks from the right fringe in ukip, makes them indefensibly electable too.

    its a total and utter mess.

    incidentally:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...n_5503110.html

    "Tony Blair Bears ‘Total Responsibility’ For Isis, Says Academic Who Advised Him On Iraq"

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    Expect stitch ups from Establishment media. Let's see if @jponpolitics admits that his daughter works for the Owen Smith campaign team !

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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    this party has confirmed itslef as being a complete joke and totaly unelectable.

    "Fourteen Labour MPs who quit frontbench posts this summer in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's leadership have said they could return if the party re-elected him in the current leadership election."

    they cant be serious. how can anyone take these traitorous idiots seriously? do they have absolutely no self respect? and of course, predictably given this level of self respect:

    "Ian Murray, who resigned as shadow Scottish secretary, described the plan for MPs to elect the shadow cabinet as a sign that Mr Corbyn's opponents "are willing to meet the leader halfway if he is serious about uniting the party".
    "He has to take that olive branch, he has to grab it with both hands and he has to try to unite the parliamentary party and the entire Labour movement."
    Mr Murray said that - if elections for the cabinet were held - he "would be thinking about putting my name forward".
    But he said there had to be "some kind of conditions attached".
    "One of them is no deselection [of MPs]. The second one I think is clarity about what the party within a party, Momentum, is there for."

    no deselection? what if thats what constituents want? its a disgrace.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37400280
    "One of them is no deselection [of MPs]" - Those in safe Labour seats have cushy jobs for life. Some didn't even need to be selected as candidates by the Local Constituency Labour Parties when they first stood for Parliament as they were parachuted in by Labour HQ - ie Tony Blair and his cohorts, because they had the 'right connections'. (eg Ed & David Miliband, Hilary Benn -just to name three).

    Now some of these poor souls who had these safe Labour seats handed to them on a plate without ever even having to beat off other potential candidates wanting to be the official Labour candidate in these seats, may now suddenly have to persuade their local Labour Party to make them the official Labour Party candidates again at the next general election, or stand as Independents, or members of some new political party.

    Unless of course they can persuade Jeremy that they will be good little boys and girls if in turn he promises to make sure that they don't get de-selected as the official Labour Party candidates at the next general election.

    Yes, it's a tough decision. Lose their cushy jobs for life, or eat crow.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  76. #796
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    Well the C4 piece was a damp squib.

  77. #797
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    The media in this Country is just as corrupt as those in 'third world banana republics' just more subtle

    Channel 4 Dispatches wheeled out a 'legal expert' who gave an anti-Corbyn line... he was Gavin Millar QC (brother of Fiona Millar, wife of Tony Blair spin doctor Alastair Campbell), also happened to be the same QC who defended Zionist supporter Michael Foster in his recent attempt to overturn legal and democratic vote of Labour NEC to allow Corbyn to stand for Leader without being re-nominated

    Meanwhile on BBC Jon Pienaar in his hatchet job on Corbyn failed to mention that his daughter works for the Owen Smith campaign team, and of course no need to wonder how his inexperienced fresh out of uni untalented daughter managed to get a cushy state funded job with a Labour MP despite lacking talent or experience...

  78. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post
    The media in this Country is just as corrupt as those in 'third world banana republics' just more subtle

    Channel 4 Dispatches wheeled out a 'legal expert' who gave an anti-Corbyn line... he was Gavin Millar QC (brother of Fiona Millar, wife of Tony Blair spin doctor Alastair Campbell), also happened to be the same QC who defended Zionist supporter Michael Foster in his recent attempt to overturn legal and democratic vote of Labour NEC to allow Corbyn to stand for Leader without being re-nominated

    Meanwhile on BBC Jon Pienaar in his hatchet job on Corbyn failed to mention that his daughter works for the Owen Smith campaign team, and of course no need to wonder how his inexperienced fresh out of uni untalented daughter managed to get a cushy state funded job with a Labour MP despite lacking talent or experience...
    i couldnt agree more with this, and i think this is a crucial point. it seems going forwards, governance in the free world will be determined more and more by the media - they really will be the new king makers, the difference with the past being media distribution with the emergence of the internet from adolescence.

    corruption will not only escalate, but its going to be less subtle - as your excellent post shows.

  79. #799
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    Brilliant 8 minute video. It's by Ken Loach about Corbyn but it's actually worth watching for the most part it is REAL people talking here...



  80. #800
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    It's result day. Ironic how it's now all the anti Corbyn MPs in the media talking about "coming together". Perhaps they should have thought about that before trying to bring him down.

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