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  1. #401
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    Cameron says he'll be publishing his tax returns soon. What's been most damaging isn't necessarily the tax arrangement itself but his denials they even existed before he was finally rumbled.

  2. #402
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    VIDEO: CNBC Anchors Shocked When Real Life Gordon Gekko Says Vote Bernie


  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Cameron says he'll be publishing his tax returns soon. What's been most damaging isn't necessarily the tax arrangement itself but his denials they even existed before he was finally rumbled.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36007718

    Well he has released his tax returns, but something else comes out. Now his mother gave him £200,000 gift. This guys going down...

  4. #404
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    More people covering the 'Gordon Gekko supports Bernie Sanders' story


  5. #405
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    Andy Burnham has done himself no harm at all today in his Hillsborough speech. Looks rather like a PM-in-waiting.

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Andy Burnham has done himself no harm at all today in his Hillsborough speech. Looks rather like a PM-in-waiting.
    Yes, I'm very impressed.

    I still think that Jeremy Corbyn is a transitional leader only. I think that last year's election was a disaster for the Tories, because they had made the stupid referendum pledge and the only possible outcome is to tear themselves apart.

    I think you should add that Boris Johnson is probably unelectable as PM outside the southeast because of his own Hillsborough history.

  7. #407
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    So what do we make of Labour's antisemitism problem? With local elections round the corner the Labour party are in the news for all the wrong reasons.

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    So what do we make of Labour's antisemitism problem? With local elections round the corner the Labour party are in the news for all the wrong reasons.
    ...Just why ? The Tories are infighting over Europe, Cameron was on the backfoot over Panama Papers and we have further cuts to public services to come. What do Labour do ? Hitler. Jews. Antisemitism.

    Such an unnecessary circus

  9. #409
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    Ken has been suspended! This is hilarious!

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Such an unnecessary circus
    So do you accept or deny this generalised racism charge directed at Labour? I'm interested to see that some rightist intellectuals consider anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism to be the same thing.

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    So do you accept or deny this generalised racism charge directed at Labour? I'm interested to see that some rightist intellectuals consider anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism to be the same thing.
    Antisemitism is not "rife" in Labour, but there are elements on the left who engage in Jewish conspiracy theories and use cliched Jewish stereotypes. However this isn't exclusive to the left, I've heard many on the far right use similar language too. Its just that because its some Labour activists and MPs who've been caught that its generated more publicity.

    There is a validity to the argument that antisemitism is used as a cover for legitimate criticism of Israel. Its bizarre how criticism of a foreign government equates to hatred towards an entire religion. Pakistan is another state that came into existence on the basis of religious identity, to provide a homeland to the Muslims of the SC, but nobody can suggest criticism of Pak govt policy is Islamophobic. And for all the talk of left-wing racism, there was not enough coverage about how Netanyahu openly exploited anti-Arab racism to drive Jewish voter turnout in last year's election. I didn't hear the right-wing commentators or David Cameron make any noise on that appalling display from the PM of one of our biggest allies.

    That being said, both Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone were careless with their language and had to be suspended. But as a Labour supporter, its such a bad look for the party a week before local elections.

  12. #412
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    Crisis? What crisis? “There is no crisis,” says Jezza. Naz Shah actually made a very good apology and the issue would have simmered down but then Ken comes along and puts his foot in his mouth - he's old and experienced enough to realise that his words would come back and bite him and the party in the back side.



  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    That being said, both Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone were careless with their language and had to be suspended. But as a Labour supporter, its such a bad look for the party a week before local elections.

    I don't believe that there is a racist bone in Ken's body. But he has put his Leader in a cleft stick.

    Mr Corbyn either expels Ken and loses a high-profile and articulate ally. Or he keeps him and the cries of institutional racism will continue.

    All of which is fine for the Blairites who are trying to oust Mr Corbyn. A Labour source told the Beeb that there are a lot more close to Mr Corbyn who hold this sort of view, and they will be outed.

  14. #414
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  15. #415
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    Ed Milliband messed up the Labour party, twice. Firstly he ran against his brother. The charismatic David would have been PM in 2015 but the strange looking and sounding Ed was unelectable. Then Ed let anyone become a voting member of the Party for £3 and the commies elected the current useless Leader, and the Tories will win again in 2020.

    If only John Smith had lived. He would have been PM in 1997. There would have been no invasion of Iraq on his watch.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Ed Milliband messed up the Labour party, twice. Firstly he ran against his brother. The charismatic David would have been PM in 2015 but the strange looking and sounding Ed was unelectable. Then Ed let anyone become a voting member of the Party for £3 and the commies elected the current useless Leader, and the Tories will win again in 2020.

    If only John Smith had lived. He would have been PM in 1997. There would have been no invasion of Iraq on his watch.
    I'm not sure that David Miliband was electable in the north. He is certainly less weird than his brother, but everything about him exuded an air of Islington dinner parties and aroused suspicions as to whether he understood the traditional Labour base at all. That wouldn't have mattered, except for the fact that Tony Bliar had so recently led the party.

    I don't see Corbyn carrying the party to anything close to 2020. The whole Anti-Semitism issue is basically an internal Labour Party right-wing scoping exercise for a coup.

    I think that the Referendum, whatever its outcome, will split the Conservatives in two. And with Labour languishing, the right will overthrow Corbyn quite late - I'm guessing 2018 - after which Andy Burnham will win the 2020 general election comfortably by erm, burnishing his Hillsborough credentials in the north and his Fitzwilliam College (Cambridge) background in the south.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I think that the Referendum, whatever its outcome, will split the Conservatives in two. And with Labour languishing, the right will overthrow Corbyn quite late - I'm guessing 2018 - after which Andy Burnham will win the 2020 general election comfortably by erm, burnishing his Hillsborough credentials in the north and his Fitzwilliam College (Cambridge) background in the south.
    I think you underestimate the challenge Labour have to face to win power in 2020.

    1 - They will get next to no seats in Scotland.
    2 - The constituency boundaries are changing throughout the UK and the new boundaries will make the mountain Labour needs to climb even steeper.

    Barring another recession or a significant rise in interest rates I don't see how Labour can win in 2020. Brits, like many others, think of their pockets when they vote and as long as the economy remains relatively stable it will be hard to remove the Tories.

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    I think you underestimate the challenge Labour have to face to win power in 2020.

    1 - They will get next to no seats in Scotland.
    The move to the left under Mr Corbyn will result in some gains in Scotland, I think.

    However, that will be offset by more losses in England.

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    The move to the left under Mr Corbyn will result in some gains in Scotland, I think.

    However, that will be offset by more losses in England.
    I agree, but this is why Labour Party strategy is so dismal.

    It strikes me that Labour has not "won" an election with Labour policies since the hung parliament of February 1974 was followed by a 3 seat victory in October 1974. Tony Blair was a conservative in all but name: I consider myself a very soft centre-right One Nation Tory, and he was to the right of me. University fees, indeed! Iraq. You name it.

    But Blair has trashed the "well-spoken educated Labour leader" brand for decades to come. Ironically he is the least Scottish sounding Scot in the world, but he sounds as if he is from the southeast and that is the Labour sub-brand that he has destroyed.

    If I was running the Labour Party, I would acknowledge:

    1. That "we" cannot win an election outright without Scotland, and Scotland is SNP for the forseeable future.

    2. That there is no longer a Labour leader template in this Presidential world who can appeal both to northern voters and southern voters, especially in marginal electorates. A northern accent can't win in the southeast. But a southern accent can't win in the north, whether it is a humble one like Alan Johnson's or a posher one.

    3. This means that it was a terrible mistake to let the right-wing press railroad Ed Miliband into discounting a coalition government with the SNP.

    4. In fact, the best option for the Labour Party is probably
    i) To agree to the idea of forming a coalition with any party with which it can find common ground.
    ii) To in particular not rule out cooperating with or forming a coalition with the SNP.
    iii) To form an explicit Lib/Lab pact in England and Wales covering Conservative-held seats, with the weaker party in that seat agreeing not to field a candidate at parliamentary elections.

    Labour made a terrible tactical error at the 2010 election when left with a hung parliament. They should have offered the Liberals full Proportional Representation.

  20. #420
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    The way Ken has been hung out to dry over the last few days has been disgraceful. Where have all the advocators of 'Je Suis Charlie' freedom of speech now? Hypocrisy rears it's ugly head once again!

  21. #421
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    Je suis ken!

  22. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asif khan View Post
    The way Ken has been hung out to dry over the last few days has been disgraceful. Where have all the advocators of 'Je Suis Charlie' freedom of speech now? Hypocrisy rears it's ugly head once again!
    Not at all, for the simple reason that nobody has shot Ken to death for expressing his opinion.

  23. #423
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    Now Labour have suspended Councillors Ilyaz Aziz and Salim Mulla for anti-Israel views.

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Now Labour have suspended Councillors Ilyaz Aziz and Salim Mulla for anti-Israel views.
    It's all getting a bit silly now. The things that some of these people are saying may be factually incorrect but that doesn't mean it's racist.

    For example, when someone compares Israel's actions in Gaza to the Nazi's actions during the Holocaust this is just a false moral equivalence imo but is it really antisemitic? Or what about peddling conspiracy theories that Israel is behind ISIS? Such people should be mocked and ridiculed for being so stupid but to throw them out of the party seems a tad ott. Let the electorate judge them.

  25. #425
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    Is it ridiculous to hold Conspiracy Theories after Hillsborough #JFT96 #Birmingham6 #Guildford4 #OrgreaveJustice #Spycops etc etc etc ?

    I know from personal experience about #TrojanHOAX, blatant lies from media and political establishment

  26. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    It's all getting a bit silly now. The things that some of these people are saying may be factually incorrect but that doesn't mean it's racist.
    Yeah. Some people including Ken have been sanctioned for speaking idiotically rather than being racist.

    Interesting that Mr Corbyn is treating them as though they had made racist statements, though.

  27. #427
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    Meanwhile back to the elections......


    Jeremy Corbyn denies rumours of leadership challenge and insists he will not lose seats in local election

    Jeremy Corbyn has defied his critics and claimed Labour will not lose any seats in Thursday’s local council elections, dismissing reports of an imminent leadership challenge as an obsession of the “the golden circle of the media establishment”.

    The Labour leader has been plagued in recent days by reports that MPs are plotting a coup against him after the EU referendum in June.

    Launching a new campaign poster, Mr Corbyn said he did not know who his challengers were and confirmed that he would stand again in a leadership election if he were challenged.

    Reports have suggested rebel Labour MPs are seeking to persuade party grandee Margaret Hodge to stand as a stalking horse against Mr Corbyn. Independent local elections experts from Plymouth University, meanwhile, have suggested the party could lose up to 150 council seats. At this stage in the electoral cycle, opposition parties tend to gain seats.

    The Labour leader accused the media of obsessing over the future of his leadership at the expense of issues that voters care about.

    “[People] are talking about housing, they’re talking about poverty, they’re talking about NHS cuts, they are talking about zero-hours contracts, they are talking about low wages, they are talking about a crisis of expectation for young people,“ he said.

    “It’s time, quite honestly, that many in the golden circle of the media establishment actually got out a bit and listened to what people are saying,” he said.

    Mr Corbyn also said that allegations of a growing problem of anti-Semitism within the ranks of the Labour party were being “dealt with”. The party has launched an independent inquiry led by former Liberty director Shami Chrakabarti.

    The Labour leader received a boost over the weekend as Unite union general secretary Len McCluskey warned that any Labour MPs “stupid enough to try” to challenge Mr Corbyn would be “accountable for their actions”. He also claimed the anti-Semitism row was being “got up” by the press and Labour MPs opposed to Mr Corbyn in order to undermine his leadership.


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7011411.html

  28. #428
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    Interesting. But if there is a leadership challenge, the Momentum will ensure that Mr Corbyn is re-elected.

  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    It's all getting a bit silly now. The things that some of these people are saying may be factually incorrect but that doesn't mean it's racist.

    For example, when someone compares Israel's actions in Gaza to the Nazi's actions during the Holocaust this is just a false moral equivalence imo but is it really antisemitic? Or what about peddling conspiracy theories that Israel is behind ISIS? Such people should be mocked and ridiculed for being so stupid but to throw them out of the party seems a tad ott. Let the electorate judge them.
    You have to understand that Israel's first three decades were of Labour rule, and the British and Israeli Labour parties are incredibly close. They both despise Netanyahu and the settlers equally.

  30. #430
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    Be very interesting to see the Council election results tomorrow. You'd expect Labour to make make huge gains, with the Tories in disarray over Europe, Cameron's discomfiture regarding tax avoidance, the NHS, the junior doctors and the academies issues.

  31. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Be very interesting to see the Council election results tomorrow. You'd expect Labour to make make huge gains, with the Tories in disarray over Europe, Cameron's discomfiture regarding tax avoidance, the NHS, the junior doctors and the academies issues.
    Yesterday Corbyn said:

    "We are not going to lose seats," Mr Corbyn said as he launched his party's election poster.

    "We are looking to gain seats where we can, but these elections are being fought on the issues of every different community across the country."

    Today Corbyn's spin doctor said:



    I think they are just making it up as they go along.

  32. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post

    And he's the brains of the outfit.

  33. #433
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    Voted today. Made up my mind in the ballot booth.

  34. #434
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    Is Corbyn taking Labour back to the 80s? We'll soon find out.



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    Looking good for Labour under Corbyn

    London Mayor Gain from Tory to Labour - Tory Islamophobia widely condemned. Many Tories defecting to Labour.

    Nuneaton - a key marginal , Labour retain control

    Lib Dem Councillors defecting to Labour

    Overall share of Vote for Labour under Corbyn in LE2016 is higher than Labour share in last years GE2015

    Talk of coups being kicked into long grass by Tom Watson. Speculation Corbyn core actually want a leadership challenge as comfortable they can destroy the marginal Blairite minority again.
    Last edited by s28; 6th May 2016 at 01:55.

  36. #436
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  37. #437
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  38. #438
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  39. #439
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    Here's an idea.

    The Blairites are waiting for the right moment to unseat Mr Corbyn. Will they wait until after the EU Referendum? If the people vote for Brexit is seems likely that there will be a Tory leadership challenge and perhaps even a snap General Election. Labour get hammered, Mr Corbyn is forced to resign, and a unifying centrist candidate emerges.

  41. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post
    Looking good for Labour under Corbyn
    What? How is a 6% drop in the English vote and 12% drop in the Scottish vote since 2012 "looking good" ?

    These Tories are so unpopular that Labour should be making sweeping gains, not just barely hanging on in England and possibly getting knocked into third place in Scotland behind the Tories.

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    Pretty awful night for Labour really.

  43. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Here's an idea.

    The Blairites are waiting for the right moment to unseat Mr Corbyn. Will they wait until after the EU Referendum? If the people vote for Brexit is seems likely that there will be a Tory leadership challenge and perhaps even a snap General Election. Labour get hammered, Mr Corbyn is forced to resign, and a unifying centrist candidate emerges.
    might be right, but i think its difficult to see how centrist candidates will do well going forwards - the new regime of debates and exposure has in recent years put fringe parties on the same pedestal as the main parties for the first time really, and with the pervasiveness of the internet as opposed to limited reach of newspapers and television in the past, people will now and have been voting for the fringe at either end of the spectrum. i think that explains why both main parties are moving away from centre policies, to defend against the fringe (UKIP and SNP/GREEN), and we can see the same trend abroad - i cant see how that changes going forwards, a move toward centre means a loss of votes to an extreme.

    if anything, i think we are moving towards an era of coalitions and minority governments for the foreseeable future - the democratic experiment is reaching its predictable goal of failure.

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    Results not as bad as Labour feared. In England they've held on in key swing seats like Crawley and Southampton. Bad night in Scotland however, falling to third place behind the Tories, and they'll not have a majority in Wales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Results not as bad as Labour feared. In England they've held on in key swing seats like Crawley and Southampton. Bad night in Scotland however, falling to third place behind the Tories, and they'll not have a majority in Wales.
    It shouldn't be a case of Labour 'hoping to not have a bad night' though.

    They have been in opposition for a full year now, they have a new leader who is supposedly popular with the public, they are facing a government under severe pressure due to a zillion recent Tory scandals regarding all and sundry - IDS resigning, disability benefits, Panama Papers, tax-dodging Cabinet members, constant calls for Cameron to resign the leadership, a Conservative Party completely divided over Bremain / Brexit - and yet they can barely muster an average local election performance in England and Wales overall, also being overtaken by the Tories in Scotland (!) which is probably the world's least Tory country.

    Look at what happened to Gordon Brown at his set of local elections in the past. The Tories effectively rinsed his credibility as PM out the door overnight, with even the Liberal Democrats putting in a relatively good performance. Point being: when the British public wish to overwhelmingly reject a premiership, they will do so ruthlessly at the ballot box. But, again, just like in 2015 with Cameron's resounding victory, this has not happened.

    Whether the Corbynites like it or not, Labour are in a seriously bad place at the moment, and these elections have underlined this fact.

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    You seem to be behind the curve James. Maybe choose a different political commentator to parrot or get more current with the state of the debate?

    Talk of Labour coup now off the agenda. In fact Corbyn supporters actually emboldened and spoiling for a fight.

    They took on the Tory right wing mainstream media, defeated massively 'popular' Islamophobic campaign in London and despite distraction of the internal pro-Israel/Blairite lobby

    There were predictions of 100-400 council seat losses. There were actually gains in Tory South !

  47. #447
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    When you're in a hole James best to stop digging



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    An opposition party facing a largely shambolic and scandal-ridden last 12 months of right-wing Tory rule, apparently riding a wave of New Socialist buoyancy, ultimately should be aiming for more in a set of national elections than 'not losing too many seats'. That is a lack of ambition bred from a lack of effective opposition. They should be aiming for a clear and crushing victory. Obviously this has not happened. It's a poor performance.

  49. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    It shouldn't be a case of Labour 'hoping to not have a bad night' though.

    They have been in opposition for a full year now, they have a new leader who is supposedly popular with the public, they are facing a government under severe pressure due to a zillion recent Tory scandals regarding all and sundry - IDS resigning, disability benefits, Panama Papers, tax-dodging Cabinet members, constant calls for Cameron to resign the leadership, a Conservative Party completely divided over Bremain / Brexit - and yet they can barely muster an average local election performance in England and Wales overall, also being overtaken by the Tories in Scotland (!) which is probably the world's least Tory country.

    Look at what happened to Gordon Brown at his set of local elections in the past. The Tories effectively rinsed his credibility as PM out the door overnight, with even the Liberal Democrats putting in a relatively good performance. Point being: when the British public wish to overwhelmingly reject a premiership, they will do so ruthlessly at the ballot box. But, again, just like in 2015 with Cameron's resounding victory, this has not happened.

    Whether the Corbynites like it or not, Labour are in a seriously bad place at the moment, and these elections have underlined this fact.
    I agree these results aren't any springboard to success for the next general election. Labour have become the first opposition party to lose council seats in midterm since 1985. However there were legitimate fears Labour could've lost hundreds of council seats so expectations, however low, have been defied in that respect.

    The big story is north of the border though. Scotland is a disaster, and in fairness to Corbyn there's little he could've done to avert it. I wonder if the time's come to make Scottish Labour independent of Westminster and let it be an entity of its own.

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    Professor John Curtice the BBC polling expert saying Labour would win General Election based on this vote share

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    I agree these results aren't any springboard to success for the next general election. Labour have become the first opposition party to lose council seats in midterm since 1985.
    The Tories must be laughing their blue socks off. A competent Labour leadership would have taken 200 seats off them.

    The Corbynista capacity for self-delusion boggles the mind. They don't want to be competent, they just want to remain ideologically pure. That's why they hate the Blairites, without whom there might have been 37 unbroken years of Tory rule. Well, they will have another Tory government in 2020 while they keep their purity.
    Last edited by Robert; 6th May 2016 at 17:37.

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    Cameron has been PM for 6 years, his party are ripping themselves apart over the EU, we've just had the first all-out strike in NHS history with a minister running health who is more unpopular than syphilis, we have a Chancellor of the Exchequer who has missed every single one of his own deficit reduction targets and despite all of this Corbyn's Labour party have just recorded the worst result for an opposition leader in council elections since 1985 when Labour was led by Neil Kinnock. Bravo.

    Yet Corbyn supporters still claim he's the right man for the job and Labour had a decent week.

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    Sadiq Khan uses first major interview as Mayor of London to attack leader Jeremy Corbyn

    Sadiq Khan has used his first major interview as Labour’s new Mayor of London to attack his leader Jeremy Corbyn.

    In highly pointed remarks Mr Khan, who on Friday became the country’s most powerful directly elected leader, said Labour under Mr Corbyn was simply not doing enough to address the concerns of ordinary voters.

    And he warned that unless Mr Corbyn changed tack and reached out to the whole electorate – not just natural Labour supporters – then party’s central mission to improve the lives of ordinary working people would be put in jeopardy.

    “In Labour our mission is to improve the lives of people,” he told the Andrew Marr show.

    “We only do that by winning elections. We only do that by speaking to people who have not voted Labour. There is no point just speaking to Labour voters – our core vote – we need to speak to everyone.”

    Pointedly Mr Khan has yet to meet Mr Corbyn since he was elected Mayor late on Friday night. Some around the Labour leader are concerned that Mr Khan intends to use his new office, and the national platform it gives him, to set up a rival power base to Mr Corbyn.

    Asked how whether he owed some of his election victory to Mr Corbyn, Mr Khan replied: "Success has many parents and I think what's important is the victory on Thursday was a victory for London. My point is very simple, we've got to stop talking about ourselves and start talking to citizens about the issues that matter to them."
    Sadiq Khan's 5 most significant policies

    His comments in the last 48 hours will have done little to allay those fears. In an article for the Observer newspaper Mr Khan, who ran under the slogan ‘a Mayor for all Londoners’ added that the party needed a broader reach.

    “Squabbles over internal structures might be important for some in the party, but it is clear they mean little or nothing to the huge majority of voters,” he wrote.

    “As tempting as it might be, we must always resist focusing in on ourselves and ignoring what people really want.

    "It should never be about 'picking sides', a 'them or us' attitude, or a having a political strategy to target just enough of the population to get over the line. Our aim should be to unite people from all backgrounds as a broad and welcoming tent – not to divide and rule.”

    Mr Khan was backed by the former Labour Cabinet Minister Lord Blunkett who said party members were “kidding” themselves if they felt the performance in last week’s elections were adequate.

    Sadiq Khan during his swearing-in ceremony at Southwark Cathedral in central London on May 7, 2016. (AFP/Getty Images)

    “The whole Labour project under Jeremy Corbyn and his allies is flawed,” he wrote in the Sun on Sunday. “They seem to think we won’t have to win back the support of those who voted Conservative last time to gain power in 2020.”

    But Labour’s Deputy Labour leader Tom Watson dismissed the prospect of Mr Corbyn facing a challenge and pleaded for "patience" after a "mixed bag" of election results.

    Writing in the Sunday Mirror he said a leadership challenge was "about as likely as a snowstorm in the Sahara".

    But he acknowledged: "The truth is Labour still has a mountain to climb if we are to return to Government in 2020."

    He said: "If there is one quality Labour Party members will need as we seek to return to Downing Street it is patience.

    "Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader of our party eight months ago with an overwhelming mandate to take the party in a new direction.

    "But that won't happen overnight. Our share of the vote was higher than it was a year ago, when we suffered a painful election defeat.

    "Of course it isn't enough. We need to do far more. We need to do better.

    "I have been a member of the Labour Party for well over 30 years and I know that members are fair-minded people.

    "That's why a leadership challenge is about as likely as a snowstorm in the Sahara."

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7019001.html

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    If your the Mayor of London it appears you can be more outspoken and independent of the party machine given what we saw with Boris and Ken. However to start off your mayoralty by immediately distancing yourself from your own party leader is rather self-serving and needlessly stoking the flames.

    Look, the party is in civil war and the local election results will do little to bridge the divide between the pro-Corbyn and anti-Corbyn camps. Both sides are spinning the results for their interests. There are legitimate fears Corbyn won't attract the swing Middle England voters needed to win in 2020.

    However John McDonnell is right, either put up or shut up. Why keep carping on and not have the courage of your convictions to launch a leadership challenge ? Corbyn's going nowhere this year IMO, its only 9 months on after he received the largest mandate in party leadership election history.

  56. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    If your the Mayor of London it appears you can be more outspoken and independent of the party machine given what we saw with Boris and Ken. However to start off your mayoralty by immediately distancing yourself from your own party leader is rather self-serving and needlessly stoking the flames.
    Did he do that, or did he explain publicaly the core issue of Labour's failure last week? Of course they must engage the aspirational, the middle classes, embrace nuclear defence, else they will never form a Government. That's what Blair did, and he won three terms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    Cameron has been PM for 6 years, his party are ripping themselves apart over the EU, we've just had the first all-out strike in NHS history with a minister running health who is more unpopular than syphilis, we have a Chancellor of the Exchequer who has missed every single one of his own deficit reduction targets and despite all of this Corbyn's Labour party have just recorded the worst result for an opposition leader in council elections since 1985 when Labour was led by Neil Kinnock. Bravo.

    Yet Corbyn supporters still claim he's the right man for the job and Labour had a decent week.
    Spot on. Could not have said it better myself.

    Why are some people so desperate to see the Labour Party back in office anyway? Look at the economic mess they left the country in 6 years ago.

  58. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post

    Why are some people so desperate to see the Labour Party back in office anyway? Look at the economic mess they left the country in 6 years ago.
    Well, that was an international problem,. I argue that Gordon Brown when Chairman of the G20 in 2009 actually saved the world from other 1929 by proposing stimuli packages / Keynesian economics - widely praised by Obama and Putin.

    When we miss is the Labour Party's commitment to social justice.

    Whether we can afford it at present is another matter.

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    Now Labour MPs are fighting on twitter.









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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Well, that was an international problem,. I argue that Gordon Brown when Chairman of the G20 in 2009 actually saved the world from other 1929 by proposing stimuli packages / Keynesian economics - widely praised by Obama and Putin.

    When we miss is the Labour Party's commitment to social justice.

    Whether we can afford it at present is another matter.
    this is a consistent labour crock - it wasnt an international problem. plenty of developed nations did not over spend, under tax, leverage themselves and depend on cyclical industries in the lead up the recession - it was a choice. labour as well as leading us into murderous unjustified and probably illegal wars, in so doing invited terror to our shores and horrifically mismanaged the economy to the point of raising a spectre of bankrupcy. the fact that many international nations were similarly myopic and greedy doesnt divest the then government of responsibility.

    in addition, whether we can afford the labour party's commitment to social justice i would argue is precisely the point. as much as i admire much of corbyns position on many social programmes (except the culture of entitlement and the ablation of economic meritocracy), his self declared economic manifesto is a shockingly puerile document which will almost be guaranteed to bleed the country to its death.

    we are not the britain of 200 years ago, sitting on top of a pile of gold stolen from around the world - we've spent it all - we are in an era where we have to reinvent and generate. rewarding the lazy, and penalising the industrious is not the way to do that. the tories, for all their social fascism have in fact substantially raised taxes amongst the middle classes, the favourite target for any political party. the real target for both parties should be the ultra high net worth, and secondarily, corporations - but obviously neither will do that.

    democracy is dead. the only question that remains is the body count.

  61. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    this is a consistent labour crock - it wasnt an international problem. plenty of developed nations did not over spend, under tax, leverage themselves and depend on cyclical industries in the lead up the recession - it was a choice. labour as well as leading us into murderous unjustified and probably illegal wars, in so doing invited terror to our shores and horrifically mismanaged the economy to the point of raising a spectre of bankrupcy. the fact that many international nations were similarly myopic and greedy doesnt divest the then government of responsibility.
    1. IIRC think all the developed nations are in the same hole except Norway, who were wise enough not to import the US toxic debt.

    2. This unjustified and illegal war thing is a red herring. Islamofascism is a world problem. For example, Nigeria, Cameroon, Chad and Niger didn't assist in Bush's Iraq adventure and yet are in a far worse state than us due to Boko Haram. Without Iraq the jihadis would still hate us for our contribution to ISAF - sanctioned and legalised by the UN.

    BTW, I would also argue that the invasion of Iraq had one positive outcome - relief for the Kurds of Iraq, of whom Saddam had killed 90%.

  62. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    1. IIRC think all the developed nations are in the same hole except Norway, who were wise enough not to import the US toxic debt.

    2. This unjustified and illegal war thing is a red herring. Islamofascism is a world problem. For example, Nigeria, Cameroon, Chad and Niger didn't assist in Bush's Iraq adventure and yet are in a far worse state than us due to Boko Haram. Without Iraq the jihadis would still hate us for our contribution to ISAF - sanctioned and legalised by the UN.

    BTW, I would also argue that the invasion of Iraq had one positive outcome - relief for the Kurds of Iraq, of whom Saddam had killed 90%.
    1. i think you need to refresh your memory.

    the uk was horrifically poorly managed. "Europe, with its close financial and trade ties to the U.S., stood in sharp contrast to Asia. Even Norway, which had virtuously invested its North Sea oil revenue with considerable prudence while the U.K. was spending its windfall on government programs, could not escape recession. "

    http://www.britannica.com/topic/Grea...09-The-1661642

    "Britain's economy will be the hardest hit in the developed world in what is expected to be the "deepest recession since the second world war," the International Monetary Fund said today"

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...oyment-to-soar

    britain performing better only than ireland, greece and italy amongst G7 countries for GDP growth from q4 07 to q2 11.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/daily...very-recession

    and as if more was needed, there were plenty of economies globally that did perfectly comfortably, or suffered far shallower recessions:

    https://ameyawaghmare.wordpress.com/...mic-recession/

    its a cowardly, dangerous promulgation of a blatant lie by labour party spinners (not aimed at you) to blame the massive criminal mismanagement of the uk economy on external factors. its just not true. they sure as hell wont be quoting global gdp growth numbers when claiming benefit for an expanding economy in the upswing of the global business cycle.

    2. its absolutely not a red herring, and you have to have your head particularly deeply buried in the sand and that too at a bizarrely awkward angle to think that (a) the situations in africa are anywhere similar to those in the middle east in terms of politics, economics, population, culture, natural resource and so on - or in fact that what has happened there has occurred entirely independently of the ginormous s show that has taken place in iraq; and that the 'islamofascism' that is the global problem you have defined as such, is not a creations precisely of western collateral damage/slaughter and political/military interference; its absurd to correlate failed corrupt states and their destiny at the hands of rebel militias, with a state a million miles away droping bombs with nintendo controllers and (b) that the 4mm people slaughtered in cold blood or displaced, including women and children, would be thankful for their sacrifice to save the hypothetical number of kurdish lives that are guessed to have benefitted.

    i dont think anyone would suppose the whole of the problem of modern terror is a result of blair, but he had a huge hand in it. theres good reason why its chad and niger that are suffering, and not brazil, switzerland etc - how does your argument explain that?
    Last edited by godzilla; 8th May 2016 at 22:03.

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    i didnt mean any irreverence by that reply, @Robert, hope it doesnt come across that way - apologies if it does.

  64. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
    i didnt mean any irreverence by that reply, @Robert, hope it doesnt come across that way - apologies if it does.
    No offence taken - thanks for this thought-provoking post. There is a lot of info there, and questions which challenge my world view in a positive way, and I will reply in due course.

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    Britain's most powerful Labour politician has some advice for Corbyn and the party.



    In his first interview with a national newspaper since his decisive election victory, the new mayor delivered a warning to his party about the importance of securing power, saying “I’ve achieved more in these seven days than in the last six years in opposition.”

    Khan said that his party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, could not be blamed for general election losses in 2010 and 2015, but added Labour was failing to “score enough goals” against a deeply divided Conservative party, wracked with infighting over Europe.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ning-elections

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    He doesn't have any power like a lot of little men they make more noise to make up for lack of stature

  67. #467
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    Sadiq for PM!

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    Ex mayors of London don't seem to have a good track record of going on to achieve anything else

    Ken Livingstone now under threat of being chucked out of the Labour Party on a made-up anti-semitism charge
    Boris Johnson has been shown up to be an opportunistic buffoon with his hypocritical stance on EU and seems to have dealt a fatal blow to any leadership pretensions he may have had
    Sadiq with his two faced actions will never win any leadership vote amongst Labour voters whilst the general populace is too racist to vote for a Muslim

  69. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post

    Ken Livingstone now under threat of being chucked out of the Labour Party on a made-up anti-semitism charge
    Boris Johnson has been shown up to be an opportunistic buffoon with his hypocritical stance on EU and seems to have dealt a fatal blow to any leadership pretensions he may have had
    Sadiq with his two faced actions will never win any leadership vote amongst Labour voters whilst the general populace is too racist to vote for a Muslim
    The general populace of London just voted for one

    Mr Corbyn's problem is that he doesn't seem to be able to reach out beyond the hard left, so far anyway. His best tactic might be to hang in there and hope the Tories self-destruct. But with Scotland gone, I think no Labour Leader has hope of being PM in a generation.

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    Corbyn has a fan from an usual source, Cameron's former director of strategy Steve Hilton although he is also a fan of Trump.

    Ex-Cameron aide attacks establishment 'bullying' of Jeremy Corbyn

    Steve Hilton, the prime minister’s former “blue skies thinker,” has said the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has been “bullied” by the Westminster establishment because of his unconventional approach to politics.

    David Cameron used a Commons encounter with Corbyn in February to take him to task for not properly fastening a tie, saying: “I know what my mother would say. I think she’d look across the dispatch box and she’d say: put on a proper suit, do up your tie and sing the national anthem.”

    But Cameron’s former adviser, in London this week to promote the UK edition of his book More Human, told the Guardian: “What I really hated about the reaction to Corbyn at the very beginning was this immediate, … very bullying ganging-up by the political establishment to say: this guy is not doing it the way we are used to doing it; he’s not wearing a tie; he’s not reshuffling his cabinet in the way we’re used to doing it.” He added: “I thought it was incredibly unattractive.”

    Hilton said he found “much to welcome” when Corbyn, with his unpolished style and appeal to a “kinder, gentler politics”, won the Labour leadership race – though he feared Corbyn did not have the skills required for the role.

    “The point of being leader of the opposition is that it’s quite a tough job, in terms of pure management. It’s not easy, and I think that’s where he’s coming unstuck. But that kind of impulse of really representing a break with the way things are done is something I really share.”

    Hilton believes Corbyn’s popularity reflects the same anti-establishment forces that have propelled Donald Trump to a compelling lead in the US Republican primaries, and allowed the avowed socialist Bernie Sanders to run Hillary Clinton far closer than many commentators expected.

    “I think that Corbyn’s success, just as the success of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump, is a reflection of this frustration that people have that whatever they do, in terms of voting for different parties, nothing much seems to change,” he said.

    Hilton was a central figure in the modernisation of the Conservative party, brought into No 10 by Cameron to foster radical ideas including the “big society”. He was notorious for roaming barefoot around Downing Street, and was parodied as the jargon-spouting Stewart Pearson in the political satire The Thick of It.

    After leaving No 10 for California in 2012, Hilton says he has lost faith in the capacity of mainstream politicians to improve people’s lives, and barely follows the fortunes of the Conservatives, the party that once brought him into the heart of government.

    He has started a tech company, Crowdpac, which aims to help raise money to fund independent candidates to run for public office without the backing of a party.

    “I think that is something I feel very, very strongly about, which is for decades now there’s been this growing reality that whoever has been in office, the same people are in power,” he said. “When Corbyn was elected, I found there was a lot to welcome there.”

    In language that could equally be used by Corbyn’s lieutenant and shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, Hilton said: “It is a technocratic elite of bankers, bureaucrats and accountants that push a particular agenda, which is all about centralisation of economic power in the hands of fewer and fewer big businesses, and centralisation of political power, which means that people at grassroots level feel they have less and less control over the things that matter to them, and people are getting more and more fed up with it.”

    John Crace condenses the political aspirations and life strategies of Steve Hilton into a conservative 750 words

    He believes Trump, rather than being the extreme figure that US liberals fear, would help to tackle some of the deep-seated problems in the country’s political life.

    “I think that he’s going to win,” Hilton said. “I think it could be a really refreshing change, frankly. That doesn’t mean I agree with everything he’s saying, but I very much agree with the arguments he’s making about the rottenness of the current system in America.”

    He added: “Trump makes really, really powerful arguments, for example in relation to healthcare. He talks about the cartels and the concentration of power and the health insurance companies effectively having monopolies and ripping people off.”
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-jeremy-corbyn

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    JC is a poor leader of people & Labour doesn't stand a chance of debating with the tories week in week out let alone competing in the next election......we need a strong opposition to keep the tories in check

    JC is bad for the UK - he obviously knows that which is why he wants to hand all the reigns to the EU.

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    Interesting that Labour moderates are starting to leave the PLP and head out to the cities to run as Mayoral candidates. I suppose they think Labour cannot win under Mr Corbyn so they may as well go somewhere they can win and do some good for working people.

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    Like good old Andy standing for Manchester....These are career politicians - some may do good work while others need to make hay while the sun shines.....

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    Jackie Walker after re-instatement to Labour Party following false accusations against her


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    Corbyn and Watson looking the part at a Sikh Gurdwara.

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    Corbyn is growing on me, he handled the referendum very well and didnt resort to scaremongering like others. And his speech today re Cameron was very dignified and apolitical.

    BUT some on his party disagree - just when you think today couldn't get any more remarkable.


    Two Labour MPs have submitted a motion of no confidence in Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

    Margaret Hodge and Ann Coffey confirmed the move in a letter to the chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

    The motion has no formal constitutional force but calls for a discussion at their next PLP meeting on Monday.

    It will be up to the PLP chairman to decide whether to accept it is debated. If accepted it would be followed by a secret ballot of Labour MPs on Tuesday

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc...client=safari#
    Last edited by Gabbar Singh; 24th June 2016 at 11:14.

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    If there is a Leadership challenge then Mr Corbyn will be reelected by the Membership.

    Though if the PLP vote against him by a big margin he may realise that his position is untenable, step down and allow a moderate unity candidate to take over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    Corbyn is growing on me, he handled the referendum very well and didnt resort to scaremongering like others. And his speech today re Cameron was very dignified and apolitical.

    BUT some on his party disagree - just when you think today couldn't get any more remarkable.





    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc...client=safari#
    Huh?

    If by handling the referendum well you mean completely invisible as the Opposition Leader in arguably the biggest referendum in British history as his parties traditional voting base overwhelmingly abandoned them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  79. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Huh?

    If by handling the referendum well you mean completely invisible as the Opposition Leader in arguably the biggest referendum in British history as his parties traditional voting base overwhelmingly abandoned them.
    "Overwhelmingly abandoned" is a bit much, ~67% of Labour voters chose to Remain but yes many traditional Labour areas defied the party line.

    This issue of working-class disaffection with centre-left parties is not unique to Britain but can be seen right across Europe. The left have struggled to come up with a response to the populist, anti-immigration right-wing and their brand of nativism. Corbyn or no Corbyn, this anger has been brewing for years and was bound to spill over.

    Corbyn's successor will have the same problem of how will they cobble together a Labour coalition of voters capable of winning an election given the wipeout in Scotland, and how they can win back ex-Labour voters who have flocked to UKIP and voted Leave.

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    Corbyn might as well have been on the payroll of the Leave campaign. Surely he has to return to the backbenches now.

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