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  1. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    Aye?

    He was voted in by members. Do 80% of the Labour members want him to resign now? It doesn't matter what a couple of dozen politicians want, they are known to be sell outs who work for self interets.
    This counter-argument is also all over social media, but it misses the point unfortunately.

    If he was elected in a General Election, say with 350 seats (would never happen, but just say that he was) how would he change policy or get bills through? 80% of his own party don't rate him, and most / all of the representatives from other parties would reject his suggestions at the ballot box as well. He would be a massive lame duck of a Prime Minister and would quickly be ousted.

    If he doesn't resign by the end of the week then the Labour Party might actually split, and then irreparable damage will have been done.

  2. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    This counter-argument is also all over social media, but it misses the point unfortunately.

    If he was elected in a General Election, say with 350 seats (would never happen, but just say that he was) how would he change policy or get bills through? 80% of his own party don't rate him, and most / all of the representatives from other parties would reject his suggestions at the ballot box as well. He would be a massive lame duck of a Prime Minister and would quickly be ousted.

    If he doesn't resign by the end of the week then the Labour Party might actually split, and then irreparable damage will have been done.
    The election won't be held until 2020. In that time new MP's , hopefully some youth will come into play. Boris and the Tories will be hated due to the recession which is upon us.

    Bottom line, his mandate is from the membership. Unless they want him out, the greaseball politicians can go suck eggs.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  3. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    lol Get a grip Robert.

    Those who supported for the Iraq war have blood on their hands. Tony Blair should be hung in public if there is any real justice in this world and those who supported him, claiming to be servents of democracy but are only politiciians servring their self interests should follow him.

    Its amazing when people whine about ISIS being some monster when their own politicians have more blood on their hands than all the terror group put together. Wake to reality Robert and do yoursel some justice man.
    Get a grip on what? I'm afraid that your opinion is not reality - it's internal to your head. We stopped hanging people in this country in 1964 @KingKhanWC, so in actual reality that is not going to happen. Nearly all the MPs voted for the Invasion of Iraq. All the Tories and 3/4 of Labour MPs, though the Lib Dems opposed the motion. Will you therefore hang nearly 500 people in public?

    Lord Blunkett says Labour under Mr Corbyn are heading for annihilation at the next election. I suppose that's OK for Momentum, because they think it's better to stay ideologically pure and remain in Opposition than get into power and have to compromise your fine ideals in order to make things work.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 28th June 2016 at 23:51.

  4. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by irfan View Post
    Please stick to the substantive argument, i could easily say stop bombing innocent children!
    I'm not bombing innocent children or anyone else, so it would be fatuous if you did say it, don't you think?

    Come on, be nice. Follow Mr Corbyn's splendid example of civility in debate.

  5. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    If he was elected in a General Election, say with 350 seats (would never happen, but just say that he was) how would he change policy or get bills through? 80% of his own party don't rate him, and most / all of the representatives from other parties would reject his suggestions at the ballot box as well. He would be a massive lame duck of a Prime Minister and would quickly be ousted.

    If he doesn't resign by the end of the week then the Labour Party might actually split, and then irreparable damage will have been done.
    Yeah.... Mr Corbyn has a holy light in his eyes - he seems to think he is the guardian of Truth. At this stage I'm not sure what the PLP can do next. There seems to be a change against Mr Corbyn in several constituency parties. Perhaps a programme of passive-aggressive resistance to Central Office - refuse to answer phone calls, forget to put things in the post, forget to attend meetings, abstain from every vote and so on.

    Or they could break away en masse as you say. Bold, but it would split the left vote as the SDP did in the eighties and probably ensure another Conservative victory.

    What am I talking about? The Conservative victory is a given. Labour will be re-nuked in Scotland and they will lose more MPs in England and Wales under Mr Corbyn. Maybe Mrs May will take advantage of this chaos and call a snap election after all.

  6. #566
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    172 out of 229 MPs signed the no-confidence vote so its not a dozen malcontents. I like Jeremy but you can't be locked in mortal combat with your own colleagues and expect to win elections. They're aren't all Blairites - the real Blairites like Hunt, Umunna, Cooper and Kendall refused to serve in the shadow cabinet. The ones that did wanted to make it work with Corbyn.

    Liz McInnes rejected the vote against Corbyn yet has resigned tonight too. Labour needs to unite amidst this Tory infighting.

  7. #567
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    What I want to know is how many of those who elected Mr Corbyn are actually Tories in disguise, who paid £3 to wreck the Party.

  8. #568
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    Has Labour got anyone who might have the charisma and stature to give them a chance in the next General election?

    What's David Miliband doing these days?


    Frank Skinner: Pakistan looked better than this when they were trying to lose.

  9. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by On_the_up View Post
    Has Labour got anyone who might have the charisma and stature to give them a chance in the next General election?

    What's David Miliband doing these days?
    Moved to NYC to run a charity called the International Rescue Committee, overseeing humanitarian and developmental aid in forty countries. Which means he can probably do a lot more good than a politician anyway.

    As for an electable leader - maybe Andy Burnham. He's centrist, he's working class with an Oxford degree, he's Northern, he's authentic-sounding, he's telegenic.

  10. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Get a grip on what? I'm afraid that your opinion is not reality - it's internal to your head. We stopped hanging people in this country in 1964 @KingKhanWC, so in actual reality that is not going to happen. Nearly all the MPs voted for the Invasion of Iraq. All the Tories and 3/4 of Labour MPs, though the Lib Dems opposed the motion. Will you therefore hang nearly 500 people in public?
    It's a crying shame those 400+ who voted for an illegal war which resulted in hundreds of thousands killed, children being born deformed and the country torn apart since should walk around in freedom. Some may have been lied to but the hardcore supporters of this barbaric and evil war should be punished in any civilised society.

    Lord Blunkett says Labour under Mr Corbyn are heading for annihilation at the next election. I suppose that's OK for Momentum, because they think it's better to stay ideologically pure and remain in Opposition than get into power and have to compromise your fine ideals in order to make things work.
    Nobody cares what these clowns who claim to be Lords say. The youth of this country are not the sheep the older generation are haunted by their patriotic complex of being the just people because Hitler was defeated. New Labour gave no opposition to the Torys, they became the same as them. Corbyn has a new different mindset, one of social reform and justice for all. Removing him is just putting a bullet through a different choice for the people.

    No offense Robert, the younger generatation have more right to decide their future, record numbers joined the Labour party to elect JC, only they will decide when he leaves. Not you or the war criminals.


    Lions don't lose sleep over the opinions of Sheep

  11. #571
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    This is shocking if true. BBC collusion with corrupt and traiterous snakes within Labour to bring down a properly elected leader with the biggest mandate to lead any political party.


  12. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKhanWC View Post
    It's a crying shame those 400+ who voted for an illegal war which resulted in hundreds of thousands killed, children being born deformed and the country torn apart since should walk around in freedom. Some may have been lied to but the hardcore supporters of this barbaric and evil war should be punished in any civilised society.
    Give it up @KingKhanWC, it won't happen.

    Nobody cares what these clowns who claim to be Lords say. The youth of this country are not the sheep the older generation are haunted by their patriotic complex of being the just people because Hitler was defeated. New Labour gave no opposition to the Torys, they became the same as them. Corbyn has a new different mindset, one of social reform and justice for all. Removing him is just putting a bullet through a different choice for the people.
    There's the lack of respect for differing opinion again. Lord Blunkett has served the Labour Party for fifty years. He was leader of one of the furthest-left Labour council, then became the UK's only blind Cabinet Minister for eight years before moving to the Lord's. He's an inspirational figure - even Tories admire him.

    No offense Robert, the younger generatation have more right to decide their future, record numbers joined the Labour party to elect JC, only they will decide when he leaves. Not you or the war criminals.
    Actually I do take offence at the ageism in this statement. Substitute the words "the white people" for "the younger generation" and ask yourself how that feels. There was a time when the elders in society were respected for their wisdom. Why? Because we've been around long enough to know what works and what doesn't. Age is a protected characteristic under The Equality Act 2010.

    And as I said, I'm curious to know how many of the £3 voters are Tories working sabotage.

  13. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post
    This is shocking if true. BBC collusion with corrupt and traiterous snakes within Labour to bring down a properly elected leader with the biggest mandate to lead any political party.
    And on and on it goes. Corbynistas, like all the hard left, have an intolerance of differing opinion.

  14. #574
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    Seema Malhotra MP says a Leadership challenge candidate will emerge today.

    "For all his qualities, Jeremy is not the leader we need to take us forward. "We have an unelectable leader, and if we lose elections then the price of our failure is paid by the working people of this country and their families who do not have a Government to stand up for them. I believe that we do need a Labour leader who can lead us to be a credible Opposition, look like a government in waiting and reach out to the voters we have lost."

    Wonder who the "credible leader" figure is? Tom Watson? Angela Eagle?

  15. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    And on and on it goes. Corbynistas, like all the hard left, have an intolerance of differing opinion.
    Although I would consider myself on the right of the political spectrum at the moment, there was a time when I had left-wing leanings, and I actually still respect a lot of the ideas of the left and think they provide a good counterbalance to the right - egalitarianism, comradeship and compassion were ideas best expressed by the likes of the late Tony Benn, for example.

    But what is eminently noticeable with the majority of left-wing thinkers (especially those on the hard left) is an extreme and completely unapologetic, actually borderline hateful intolerance of any view that is different to their own. Look across forums and social media and you will see this everywhere; s28 is just a generic example and is one of many. This is one of the biggest things that pushed me away from the left: nothing more than the daily, cringeworthy words and behaviours of its inhabitants and salesmen.

    The problem however is that this is what the left comes from: it is inherently the politics of change, freedom fighting and revolution; it seeks an insurrection in every office building, on every street corner and in every published text; its whole existence relies on the aforementioned extreme intolerance, because in its effort to provoke alteration of society, it feels like it can not, it must not tolerate.

    Unfortunately for a lot of us who value our one chance on this Earth and just want to lead happy and simple lives, the above is a real turn-off. Lol.

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    Oh, and as for a new leader, Tom Watson would be good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookiewookie View Post
    his is way past his sell by date - I give him until Wednesday next week....
    Ding Dong...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    And on and on it goes. Corbynistas, like all the hard left, have an intolerance of differing opinion.
    Spot on - their emotions exemplify similarities with far right racists......

  19. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    If he doesn't resign by the end of the week then the Labour Party might actually split, and then irreparable damage will have been done.
    The Labour Party won't 'split'. If any MP's don't wish to accept the verdict of the Labour Party members as to who should be the leader of the Labour Party they are welcome to challenge him and ask the Labour Party members (not just Labour MP's) to decide again. Alternatively, they can leave the Labour Party and form their own party, or join one of the existing political parties. I'm sure they'll be welcomed with open arms.

    The Labour Party is not like a married couple, with one partner consisting of pro Corbyn supporters and the other partner being those who are anti Corbyn, that can split-up, divorce, and then divide the assets between them


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  20. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    The Labour Party won't 'split'. If any MP's don't wish to accept the verdict of the Labour Party members as to who should be the leader of the Labour Party they are welcome to challenge him and ask the Labour Party members (not just Labour MP's) to decide again. Alternatively, they can leave the Labour Party and form their own party, or join one of the existing political parties. I'm sure they'll be welcomed with open arms.

    The Labour Party is not like a married couple, with one partner consisting of pro Corbyn supporters and the other partner being those who are anti Corbyn, that can split-up, divorce, and then divide the assets between them
    Why wouldn't Labour split? Something similar has happened before, it could happen again.

  21. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post

    But what is eminently noticeable with the majority of left-wing thinkers (especially those on the hard left) is an extreme and completely unapologetic, actually borderline hateful intolerance of any view that is different to their own. Look across forums and social media and you will see this everywhere; s28 is just a generic example and is one of many. This is one of the biggest things that pushed me away from the left: nothing more than the daily, cringeworthy words and behaviours of its inhabitants and salesmen.

    The problem however is that this is what the left comes from: it is inherently the politics of change, freedom fighting and revolution; it seeks an insurrection in every office building, on every street corner and in every published text; its whole existence relies on the aforementioned extreme intolerance, because in its effort to provoke alteration of society, it feels like it can not, it must not tolerate.
    Snipped this but - great post. Nailed it. Bravo.

  22. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Oh, and as for a new leader, Tom Watson would be good.
    It would have to be a unity candidate. Watson would do an OK job, though I prefer Andy Burnham, who will gather votes because he is Northern, not of the elite, and telegenic.

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    @James your passive aggressive tone is rather repatitive and tiresome and overlooks a fundamental point and that is that MPs are at war with party members. This is not democracy, it's hijacking of a party by a minority.

    If labour is taking a lurch to the left them so what.... Go find yourself a party that agrees with your politics. The overwhelming number want to lurch left, it's in fact the blairites who are holding the party to ransom.

    The SNP are to the left of labour, not right.

    @Robert.... Clearly you see what you want to see.

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    PMqs is going to be fantastic today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    @James your passive aggressive tone is rather repatitive and tiresome and overlooks a fundamental point and that is that MPs are at war with party members. This is not democracy, it's hijacking of a party by a minority.
    this "minority" you speak of were elected by the labour voters.....so not strictly non-democratic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    @James your passive aggressive tone is rather repatitive and tiresome and overlooks a fundamental point and that is that MPs are at war with party members. This is not democracy, it's hijacking of a party by a minority.

    If labour is taking a lurch to the left them so what.... Go find yourself a party that agrees with your politics. The overwhelming number want to lurch left, it's in fact the blairites who are holding the party to ransom.

    The SNP are to the left of labour, not right.

    @Robert.... Clearly you see what you want to see.
    I would say my tone is more straightforward and direct than passive-aggressive. I don't agree with Corbyn's hard left politics, I think he is a dishonourable man for not resigning and instead preferring to risk the destruction of his party, and I think any opposition party needs to be led by a charismatic, effective and refreshing individual with genuine leadership qualities: he is a nice man, but he is in the wrong job.

  27. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spookiewookie View Post
    this "minority" you speak of were elected by the labour voters.....so not strictly non-democratic.
    In a democracy, people get the leaders that they deserve! Or, on a slightly less philosophical note, the Labour voters flippin' voted these people in lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    @Robert.... Clearly you see what you want to see.
    I see some horrible invective by several Corbynistas right here on this thread. Don't you see it?

    Labour can move to the left by all means. What I want to see is a Leader with the skills to lead the PLP so that Labour can function as effective Opposition. Are you seeing that? Seriously? Mr Corbyn needs 95 cooperative MPs to do this. He's got 40. This represents utter, abject failure by Mr Corbyn to do his job.

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    The poverty of ideas and scraping of the barrel by the Labour Right is shown up by this :-

    Their much ballyhooed unity candidate is Angela Eagle, who only got 16% of the vote in last years Deputy Leadership election !

    The Establishment Elite are out of touch with the wider electorate and totally out of touch with their own selectorate/members

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Why wouldn't Labour split? Something similar has happened before, it could happen again.
    You need to get your facts correct. The Labour Party didn't 'split'. The Gang of Four, plus one or two others, left the Labour Party to form their own party. The Labour Party 'splitting' implies the Labour Party ceasing to exist in it's current form, with all it's assets, from the central HQ down to each constituency, being split and argued over by any successor parties, with those who are currently calling themselves Labour Party members having to apply to join any successor party/parties.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    @James your passive aggressive tone is rather repatitive and tiresome and overlooks a fundamental point and that is that MPs are at war with party members. This is not democracy, it's hijacking of a party by a minority.

    If labour is taking a lurch to the left them so what.... Go find yourself a party that agrees with your politics. The overwhelming number want to lurch left, it's in fact the blairites who are holding the party to ransom.

    The SNP are to the left of labour, not right.

    @Robert.... Clearly you see what you want to see.
    Correct. The MP's are chosen by the Labour Party members to stand as candidates on their behalf, and are then chosen by the electorate to represent them in Parliament. The Labour Party members, and not just MP's, choose the Leader of the Labour Party. Of course, other Labour Party members can challenge the Labour Party leader and ask the Labour Party members, not just MP's, to choose a new leader. The likes of @James and @Robert fail to grasp that simple fact.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I see some horrible invective by several Corbynistas right here on this thread. Don't you see it?

    Labour can move to the left by all means. What I want to see is a Leader with the skills to lead the PLP so that Labour can function as effective Opposition. Are you seeing that? Seriously? Mr Corbyn needs 95 cooperative MPs to do this. He's got 40. This represents utter, abject failure by Mr Corbyn to do his job.

    im sorry but the PLP had no intention to work with Jeremy. He was always on a hiding to nothing. So now once he wins the enxt leadership election we can begin the long process of deselecting the blairite's and build a new better more diverse and democratic labour party. Ed milliband had the PLP behind him was a he a"leader"? who decides who a leader is? Jeremy has not even been given a year. This is not how you support a leader. Now the PLP should simply follow the rules, respect the party and its members and appoint a leadership candidate to fight a eladership election against Jeremy. They dont want to because whoever it is will get annihilated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post
    The poverty of ideas and scraping of the barrel by the Labour Right is shown up by this :-
    And the centre. And a lot of the left too - all have realised that Mr Corbyn is incompetent to lead the Party in Opposition. He just doesn't have the skills.

    I suppose that at age 67, after 32 years on the backbenches, this is was his only chance to do something significant - but sadly he blew it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    im sorry but the PLP had no intention to work with Jeremy. He was always on a hiding to nothing. So now once he wins the enxt leadership election we can begin the long process of deselecting the blairite's and build a new better more diverse and democratic labour party.
    @the Great Khan - can you see the contradiction in this sentence?

    What will you do with all the left MPs who aren't Blairites and voted No Confidence in Mr Corbyn? Deselect all them too?



    Ed milliband had the PLP behind him was a he a"leader"? who decides who a leader is?
    You know the answer to that. We all do, re-evaluating on a moment-by-moment basis. Mr Miliband had the basic credibility gained from Cabinet experience. He appeared to be leading Labour to victory in 2010, albeit a minority Goverment, according to the indicators. So the PLP stuck by him.

    Jeremy has not even been given a year. This is not how you support a leader. Now the PLP should simply follow the rules, respect the party and its members and appoint a leadership candidate to fight a eladership election against Jeremy. They dont want to because whoever it is will get annihilated.
    As you know, you don't get a job and just keep it. You have to keep proving that you can do it. There's such a thing as six-month probation in most jobs after all. Mr Corbyn had no Cabinet or Shadow cabinet experience, so he lacks that basic credibility coming into the job.

    He has faced two acid tests and failed them both: firstly, the council elections where he failed to make the sharp gains one would expect for an Opposition party - he actually lost seats! - Labour were knocked into third place in Scotland behind the Tories That is poor performance previously unheard of. Secondly, the Referendum - he failed to counter the xenophobic propaganda of UKIP and 1/3 of the Labour faithful voted Leave. That swung the vote. At best, he was not competent to get the Remain message across. At worst - and this is believed by a lot of Labour party activists - he sabotaged the Leave campaign. And now look at the mess we are in.

    That's why the PLP has turned against him. In fact I think they have been more than fair! The tide is turning as hundreds of party activists - not the £3 members, but the people who do the actual work - door-knockers and envelope-stuffers, as well as Young Labour, are writing to Mr Corbyn in their hundreds asking him to step down for the good of the Party.

    All know that the longer he stays, the happier the Tories will be.

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    My gripe with Corbyn is that he felt a responsibility to promote Remain. If he has stuck to his principles and endorsed Leave, in the tradition of Tony Benn and Michael Foot, he would be stunningly popular with traditional Labour voters.

    I went past The Angel Islington this afternoon and reflected on just how much Labour is dominated by a Blairite elite who live in Islington and are revolted by the opinions of the working class. There is no hope when you hold your own supporters in contempt.

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    Looks like it's been decided. Angela Eagle will stand against Jeremy.
    She came 4th out of 5 in the Deputy Leadership elections!
    She was rejected by 84% of the Labour members just to be a Deputy

    Insert Facepalm icons heres :- x

  37. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    My gripe with Corbyn is that he felt a responsibility to promote Remain. If he has stuck to his principles and endorsed Leave, in the tradition of Tony Benn and Michael Foot, he would be stunningly popular with traditional Labour voters.

    I went past The Angel Islington this afternoon and reflected on just how much Labour is dominated by a Blairite elite who live in Islington and are revolted by the opinions of the working class. There is no hope when you hold your own supporters in contempt.
    Not all of Islington is chi-chi etc. Corbyn represents more working class multicultural Holloway Road end

  38. #598
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    Today the major Unions have come out backing Corbyn along with many Constituency Labour Parties. The splitters have no mandate to challenge Jeremy. I expect to see Angela get her head handed to her.

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    Thankfully angela eagle has launched an official challenge.

    Let's gets this over and done with with quickly.

    If corbyn wins.... i hope to see 190 odd labour candidates to resign from their seats and usher in by-elections of the scale never seen before. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

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    Strange tactics by Ms Eagle. Is this some sort of outflanking maneuver? If she is de facto leader of the rebellion - as someone with actual Cabinet experience she is well placed to be - in her position I would refuse to cooperate with the Leader until HM Opposition seizes up and stops functioning.

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    they cant be serious about eagle. omgesus, this party is totally finished.

    quite apart from her comedy barbie voice and crocodile tears, she voted to bomb syria, voted for tuition fees, voted for the iraq war, voted for nuclear weapons, and her own local party told her to back jc.

    how delusional can you get?

    on a different topic, i thought this was v interesting, sent it to a friend in the young fabians, but no response when usually she is very timely...

    @s28

    The truth behind the Labour coup, when it really began and who manufactured it (EXCLUSIVE) | The Canary
    http://www.thecanary.co/2016/06/28/t...red-exclusive/
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 1st July 2016 at 02:46.

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    Blair office still employs 200 people directly and all his spin goons are out spinning madly in public (Alastair Campbell , John McTernan etc) sure more going on through various indirect and hidden channels.

    It is partly about Chilcot but it's also about controlling the opposition and their view seems to be if they can't control it they'll destroy it. Bit like their Iraq regime change, they are doing the same to Labour.

  43. #603
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    Was at this rally in Parliament Square on Monday, Corbyn has real connection with the people. Was like a rock concert. He isn't a great orator. He enthuses people with his authenticity and caring.


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    What were Labour MPs thinking by instigating all of this now? The fixed term parliament act means that the chances of an early election are slim so why not wait and let the Tories tear themselves apart over the EU and then if MPs are still unhappy with Corbyn in 18 months or 2 years time act then. That would still give them a year before the election to get behind the new leader. And it would give Corbyn time to see how he performs over the next 2 years vs the new Tory leader.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 1st July 2016 at 02:47.

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    They were scared Corbyn was going to win a snap election. In recent Tooting by-election an unknown nobody Dr Rosena Allin-Khan got a 7% swing from Conservatives to Labour in a seat the Conservatives had high hopes of winning after departure of Sadiq Khan who only had a majority of 2000. Dr Allin-Khan won with majority of 6000.

  46. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post

    It is partly about Chilcot but it's also about controlling the opposition and their view seems to be if they can't control it they'll destroy it. Bit like their Iraq regime change, they are doing the same to Labour.
    What about all non-Blairite Labour left MPs who voted No Confidence in Mr Corbyn? What do you think their motivation is?

  47. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    What were Labour MPs thinking by instigating all of this now? The fixed term parliament act means that the chances of an early election are slim so why not wait and let the Tories tear themselves apart over the EU and then if MPs are still unhappy with Corbyn in 18 months or 2 years time act then. That would still give them a year before the election to get behind the new leader. And it would give Corbyn time to see how he performs over the next 2 years vs the new Tory leader.
    1. The Tories will be welded back together by September. They are efficient and will do what works to win.

    2. The £3 Corbynistas will still be there in 18-24 months. But if their man can be ousted now, I think most will lose heart and drop off the Labour membership. Better to strike while the rebels have momentum, if you'll pardon the pun.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 1st July 2016 at 02:48.

  48. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    What were Labour MPs thinking by instigating all of this now? The fixed term parliament act means that the chances of an early election are slim so why not wait and let the Tories tear themselves apart over the EU and then if MPs are still unhappy with Corbyn in 18 months or 2 years time act then. That would still give them a year before the election to get behind the new leader. And it would give Corbyn time to see how he performs over the next 2 years vs the new Tory leader.
    Chilcot report next week? Tony Blair must be in high heaven right now knowing that the headlines next week instead of being dominated by the Chilcot report, will be dominated by Brexit, by the Tory leadership race, by Labour infighting - and with perhaps a footnote somewhere that mentions the Chilcot report in a couple of sentences at most.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 1st July 2016 at 02:49.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Angela Eagle having cold feet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    What about all non-Blairite Labour left MPs who voted No Confidence in Mr Corbyn? What do you think their motivation is?
    theyll get into line because they are opportunists and will eventually back the winner. Its the blairites who need to be dealt with.

  51. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    @the Great Khan - can you see the contradiction in this sentence?

    What will you do with all the left MPs who aren't Blairites and voted No Confidence in Mr Corbyn? Deselect all them too?





    You know the answer to that. We all do, re-evaluating on a moment-by-moment basis. Mr Miliband had the basic credibility gained from Cabinet experience. He appeared to be leading Labour to victory in 2010, albeit a minority Goverment, according to the indicators. So the PLP stuck by him.



    As you know, you don't get a job and just keep it. You have to keep proving that you can do it. There's such a thing as six-month probation in most jobs after all. Mr Corbyn had no Cabinet or Shadow cabinet experience, so he lacks that basic credibility coming into the job.

    He has faced two acid tests and failed them both: firstly, the council elections where he failed to make the sharp gains one would expect for an Opposition party - he actually lost seats! - Labour were knocked into third place in Scotland behind the Tories That is poor performance previously unheard of. Secondly, the Referendum - he failed to counter the xenophobic propaganda of UKIP and 1/3 of the Labour faithful voted Leave. That swung the vote. At best, he was not competent to get the Remain message across. At worst - and this is believed by a lot of Labour party activists - he sabotaged the Leave campaign. And now look at the mess we are in.

    Actually the reason we got leave was because the tories failed to get their people to vote remain. 60 plus percent of people in labour voted remain so on the contrary as a elader he managed to get the vote out. The rebels however failed miserably in their own constituencies. Incompetents.

    That's why the PLP has turned against him. In fact I think they have been more than fair! The tide is turning as hundreds of party activists - not the £3 members, but the people who do the actual work - door-knockers and envelope-stuffers, as well as Young Labour, are writing to Mr Corbyn in their hundreds asking him to step down for the good of the Party.

    Fair? lol. They have been itching to take him out from day one. Fits it was the council elections, then the scottish then the bi elections, then the referendum. None of them had the gall to ever defend him on tv or in the press, they hated him from day one. They must be dealt with so the aprty can move forward. They have lost two elections and the same method cannot work again.

    All know that the longer he stays, the happier the Tories will be.
    The PLP should have united and backed their democratically elected leader rather than fighting him at every turn. They have never supported him. Well now they will have to face a contest. Either they go or he does. End of.

    I also sense alot of strange prejudice against Corbyn. "He doesnt look like a leader" well what do people mean by that? he'e old? or is casually dressed? "he supports terrorists" why because he supports the palestinians? we can now see the isreali lobby using antisemitism smears against him today too. desperation. "WHe is unelectable" what does that eman? he has managed to overcome enarly every test thrown at him in 6 months. Was milliband electable? No. Becasue he lost, same with Brown. Will Eagle be electable? lol. What about owen smith (who by the way?) what about other war criminals.

    Corbyn has to hold out till Chilcot. Now it will probably be a white wash but that shouldnt stop him from calling for war criminals to face justice. If you think the activists who have signed up will simply mealt away you have another thing coming. With the rascists and the closet racists uniting to in the leave vote those of us who will eventually face the brunt of their prejudices have to unite and fight back. And we will..

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    Give becoming PM would be a existential threat to the Muslim community in the UK..We are already under massive threat now and Gove will just make things worse. He's a nasty piece of work and a card carrying Muslim hater. Lets see how this pans out.

  53. #613
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    Mr Corbyn's name might not be on the ballot. He must be nominated by at least 50 MPs Can he garner that much support?

  54. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Mr Corbyn's name might not be on the ballot. He must be nominated by at least 50 MPs Can he garner that much support?
    As leader he doesn't need to be nominated. Angela Eagle has been told to wait before she officially challenges him in the hope that he resigns beforehand, 'cause they know that if he is challenged then being the current leader he will automatically be a candidate and is almost certain to win again. Their only hope is to make his life unbearable and force him to resign.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  55. #615
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    There is a precedent. Mr Kinnock was nominated by 25%+ of MPs when he was challenged by Mr Benn.

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    .

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    Perhaps this will all end up being rather inconsequential for the UK at large.

    Theresa May is miles ahead in the race to be the next PM, would rule for the next 4 years, and then providing she hasn't been a total disaster would have a decent chance of winning a full term in 2020.

  58. #618
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    YNWA


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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    There is a precedent. Mr Kinnock was nominated by 25%+ of MPs when he was challenged by Mr Benn.
    Rules have changed since then. The precedent you mention is irrelevant now. Instead of a three-way electoral college choosing the leader, with one-third weight given to the few hundred votes of the Parliamentary Labour Party, one third to the trade unions, and only one-third to all the hundreds of thousands of individual Labour Party members added together, it is now s straight one member, one vote.
    ie few hundred MP's, instead of having a 1/3rd of the total voting power, will now only have around 200 votes out of hundreds of thousands that will elect a new leader.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 2nd July 2016 at 15:55.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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  61. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Rules have changed since then. The precedent you mention is irrelevant now. Instead of a three-way electoral college choosing the leader, with one-third weight given to the few hundred votes of the Parliamentary Labour Party, one third to the trade unions, and only one-third to all the hundreds of thousands of individual Labour Party members added together, it is now s straight one member, one vote.
    ie few hundred MP's, instead of having a 1/3rd of the total voting power, will now only have around 200 votes out of hundreds of thousands that will elect a new leader.
    That does not invalidate the precedent. All those individual Corbynistas will count for nothing if their man can't get on the ballot.

  62. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    That does not invalidate the precedent. All those individual Corbynistas will count for nothing if their man can't get on the ballot.
    He doesn't need to get 'on the ballott'. The challengers need to get the 20% of MP's votes to be a 'challenger'. That's why the rules regarding the percentages of MP's needing to propose a candidate are different depending upon whether the leadership position is vacant (which it won't be if Corbyn doesn't resign) or whether an incumbent is being challenged. Neil Kinnock, on the Andrew Marr Show this morning, conveniently omitted this small but crucial point when he pulled a ragged piece of paper out of his pocket to read out the rules.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  63. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    He doesn't need to get 'on the ballott'. The challengers need to get the 20% of MP's votes to be a 'challenger'. That's why the rules regarding the percentages of MP's needing to propose a candidate are different depending upon whether the leadership position is vacant (which it won't be if Corbyn doesn't resign) or whether an incumbent is being challenged. Neil Kinnock, on the Andrew Marr Show this morning, conveniently omitted this small but crucial point when he pulled a ragged piece of paper out of his pocket to read out the rules.
    Curious that Mr Kinnock chose to find 20% of Labour MPs to get on the ballot to fight off the Benn challenge, then. Eerie similarities with the present - Mr Benn felt that Kinnockite Labour would be unable to win a GE, so he ran as a stalking horse in the hope that John Smith would come out and challenge Mr Kinnock.

    Dear old John Smith. If only he had lived.

    Anyway, what is effectively an MP strike continues. I wonder how long the pro-Corbyn MPs can continue doubling up in HM Opposition roles? Perhaps the rebels' tactic is to wait for them to all go off sick with stress and hope that Mr Corbyn capitulates, without the staff to run the Opposition.

  64. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Curious that Mr Kinnock chose to find 20% of Labour MPs to get on the ballot to fight off the Benn challenge, then. Eerie similarities with the present - Mr Benn felt that Kinnockite Labour would be unable to win a GE, so he ran as a stalking horse in the hope that John Smith would come out and challenge Mr Kinnock.
    You keep bringing up the events relating to a leadership challenge from almost 30 years ago when I've already pointed out to you that the Labour Party rules for leadership elections were completely different at the time.

    Dear old John Smith. If only he had lived.

    Anyway, what is effectively an MP strike continues. I wonder how long the pro-Corbyn MPs can continue doubling up in HM Opposition roles? Perhaps the rebels' tactic is to wait for them to all go off sick with stress and hope that Mr Corbyn capitulates, without the staff to run the Opposition.
    That's up to the rebel MP's. If they want to get rid of Corbyn then the Labour Party has a procedure for removing the Leader. What's stopping them from invoking that process. putting up candidate(s) to challenge Corbyn and letting the Labour Party members decide? Unless of course they're afraid that they'll get their backsides whipped and the Labour Party members will say 'we're happy with Jeremy Corbyn as our Leader thank you very much, now get lost'.

    What is definite for sure is that many of them will not be Labour MP's after the next election. If Corbyn is still the leader, they'll either be leaving the Labour Party to join some other party or create one of their own, or fail to get support from the local Labour Party members and lose their seats to opposition parties if they force Corbyn to resign, or even get deselected as Labour Party candidates and be forced to stand as Independents.

    Either way, for some of them, due to what they have done, their goose is cooked!


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  65. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post

    What is definite for sure is that many of them will not be Labour MP's after the next election. If Corbyn is still the leader, they'll either be leaving the Labour Party to join some other party or create one of their own, or fail to get support from the local Labour Party members and lose their seats to opposition parties if they force Corbyn to resign, or even get deselected as Labour Party candidates and be forced to stand as Independents.

    Either way, for some of them, due to what they have done, their goose is cooked!
    So is Labour's, sadly.... in every scenario you mention, the Tories win the next General Election.

  66. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    So is Labour's, sadly.... in every scenario you mention, the Tories win the next General Election.
    Yep. The Blairites, plus most of the media, were out to get Corbyn from the moment he was elected. If you recall, most of them were refusing to serve under him and were resigning their shadow cabinet roles the moment the leadership result was announced.

    Whereas, had they united behind Corbyn at that time, put up a united front and supported him, it is quite possible that he would have voluntarily made way for someone else before the next election. But no, the Blairites were out to get him, and now they've probably ensured the breakup of the Labour Party. Even if they force Corbyn out, the damage is already done. The wider Labour Party membership will take their revenge.

    As for the Conservatives, I feel that the result of the referendum means that instead of lancing the eurosceptic boil that existed in the Tory Party, the Brexit vote will also have major long term ramifications for the Tory Party once Big Business and the wealthy backers of the Tory party start to feel the pain of Britain's exit from the EU.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  67. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Yep. The Blairites, plus most of the media, were out to get Corbyn from the moment he was elected. If you recall, most of them were refusing to serve under him and were resigning their shadow cabinet roles the moment the leadership result was announced.

    Whereas, had they united behind Corbyn at that time, put up a united front and supported him, it is quite possible that he would have voluntarily made way for someone else before the next election.
    I'm curious to know why Andy Burnham has not resigned from Shadow Cabinet.....

  68. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I'm curious to know why Andy Burnham has not resigned from Shadow Cabinet.....
    Maybe he's just biding his time .... or fears facing the wrath of his local party members if he's seen to be stabbing Corbyn .... or thinks perhaps he could be the 'unity candidate' if/when a deal could be worked out between the pro & anti Corbyn groups ? Andy Burnham has been virtually invisible since all this infighting boiled up and Hilary Benn kicked it all off. I'm betting on him hoping to be the 'unity candidate'.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  69. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Maybe he's just biding his time .... or fears facing the wrath of his local party members if he's seen to be stabbing Corbyn .... or thinks perhaps he could be the 'unity candidate' if/when a deal could be worked out between the pro & anti Corbyn groups ? Andy Burnham has been virtually invisible since all this infighting boiled up and Hilary Benn kicked it all off. I'm betting on him hoping to be the 'unity candidate'.
    That would make a lot of sense for Labour.

    Tom Watson is appealing to the four big unions to broker a deal to end this mess.

  70. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    That would make a lot of sense for Labour.

    Tom Watson is appealing to the four big unions to broker a deal to end this mess.
    On Suunday, on the Andrew Marr Show, Ken McClusky, leader of the largest union Unite was appealing to the anti-Corbyn crowd to let the Unions, who are "negotiation specialists" according him, mediate and resolve the impasse. In a sense he is correct - the union leaders are expert negotiators, in stark contrast to these politicians. ie It's the unions who are appealing and offering to mediate, and not the unions who are being appealed to.


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  72. #632
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    I now think Labour will split. It's wounded too deep to mend.

    If so, Mr Corbyn will no longer be Leader of HM Opposition but of a hard-left rump. The 172 can become HM Opposition immediately. Funding won't be a problem. Labour have moved left, Tories right and social liberals feel disenfranchised. Of course they will have to appeal to the white working class who deserted Labour for UKIP. They could hoover up a lot of Lib Dem activists to man the constituency parties.

    The Corbynistas get rid of the hated Blairites and the 172 get an effective and competent leader. Everybody wins

  73. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I now think Labour will split. It's wounded too deep to mend.

    If so, Mr Corbyn will no longer be Leader of HM Opposition but of a hard-left rump. The 172 can become HM Opposition immediately. Funding won't be a problem. Labour have moved left, Tories right and social liberals feel disenfranchised. Of course they will have to appeal to the white working class who deserted Labour for UKIP. They could hoover up a lot of Lib Dem activists to man the constituency parties.
    Not quite as easy as you're making it out. If they break away, they have no right to call themselves The Labour Party or have access to Labour Party HQ, assets, support structure etc. And there's also the small matter of local Labour Party constituency parties, their offices, assets and organisational structures. If/when there is an election, most of these MP's will get their goose cooked at that stage because not only will they be fighting against other parties candidates, but also official Labour Party candidates, and all without little or no local support structures.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  74. #634
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    Sure, they'd have to find a new name. Maybe the opposite of Momentum? INERTIA
    But I think it would be easy as the Blairites / Brownites will have plenty of industry contacts and will raise money in no time. They can rent new office space. Of course the acid test will be the next GE.

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    Branding and grass roots activists are the big things they will lack. Setting themselves up as SDP II is not a good idea.

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  77. #637
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    Yes, I do know who my MP is - she's one of the Shadow Cabinet resignees.

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    I know who mine is. Labour, but not a shadow resignee.

  79. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Sure, they'd have to find a new name. Maybe the opposite of Momentum? INERTIA
    But I think it would be easy as the Blairites / Brownites will have plenty of industry contacts and will raise money in no time. They can rent new office space. Of course the acid test will be the next GE.
    Quote Originally Posted by s28 View Post
    Branding and grass roots activists are the big things they will lack. Setting themselves up as SDP II is not a good idea.
    Yep. Grass roots activists, who do so much of the donkey work at election time. And when talking about local constituency Labour Parties, don't forget the thousands of Labour councillors up and down the country who are also part of the local support structure. Not being part of the Parliamentary 'Bubble' means that the majority are unlikely to be supporters of the anti-Corbyn MP's brigade, especially if it means having to leave the Labour Party and having to fight as Independents or candidates of a new party.

    The anti-Corbyn MP's are like the supporters of the Brexit campaign - except that they might now be having to think through the full ramifications of challenging Corbyn and/or leaving the Labour Party before taking the plunge.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  80. #640
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    I know...Centre Forward. Nice ring, eh?

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