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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Northern Ireland will never call for a vote to become independent - the whole reason for the existence of Northern Ireland being a separate entity from Ireland is because the Protestant majority in those northern Irish counties wanted to remain being part of Britain and didn't want to become part of the new independent Ireland.
    Northern Ireland will soon be a catholic majority, they've gone from 20 something percent from 1918 to 45% now. They are the majority in schools. One Catholic in Belfast told me that they breed like rabbits compared to Protestants.

    I don't think Republic of Ireland wants them now either, it will be interesting to see where they are in 30 years.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElRaja View Post
    need to look back, say, only a millenia, just revive nations of mercia, northumbria and wessex, and the left over can be a very greater london, everyone in the home counties can have an oyster card

    tbf liverpool already have there own language... aaeeemmmmm
    I live in Northumbria, and I wish I had the choice to join with Scotland in all honesty. The patronising scaremongering being pushed in the media from the south has been truly sickening.

  3. #83
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    The constitutional consequences of a YES vote is intriguing. If Labour win a majority in 2015 on the basis of Scottish MPs (independence would be in 2016) then there would be no way that government could last. Scotland would still need representation at Westminster for that year.

    Does Cameron, as reported in the Guardian, hang on for another year ? It would be the first time since the Second World War that an election would be held after the maximum five year term. It would be a deeply unpopular move in the eyes of the electorate who would be after his blood if a third of the country is lost under his watch - making him a Lord North of the 21st Century. However a new Tory leader would have to deal with tumbling markets and a constitutional crisis not seen for 300 years - and such a rudderless government would be disasterous for the UK economy which is barely recovering from the 2008 crash. The right wing of the party who loathe him would have their knives out - he kept Devo Max off the ballot paper and was outmanouvered by Alex Salmond.

    Part of this YES surge is due to left-wing Labour voters leaning towards independence. Miliband would not be immune from the political fallout. Without Scottish MPs a Labour government would be harder to put together (although FPTP voting system does give Labour an inbuilt advantage) - had the 2010 election occurred without Scottish MPs - Cameron would have a 21 seat majority.

    I do hope the union survives. Make no mistake - the political and economic aftershocks of what happens next Thursday will reverberate for generations. I do think pro-independence voters are downplaying the consequences of a YES vote. You're not going to get a Socialist Utopia. There is the inevitable question of having a currency union without a political union. This is a huge step.

    The irony of all this ? David Cameron is now relying on his predecessor Gordon Brown to save his skin !

    British politics is crazy.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranvir View Post
    Northern Ireland will soon be a catholic majority, they've gone from 20 something percent from 1918 to 45% now. They are the majority in schools. One Catholic in Belfast told me that they breed like rabbits compared to Protestants.
    A bit over the top don't you think?

    I don't think Republic of Ireland wants them now either, it will be interesting to see where they are in 30 years.
    You can't compare the demands of the Scottish public wanting, and getting, a vote on becoming independent with the Northern Irish wanting a similar vote. Unlike the Northern Irish, the Scots don't have a recent turbulent history of violence and conflict between those wanting to stay with England and those who don't. The fear of all out civil war if Northern Ireland ever became independent is sufficient to preclude any serious demands for a vote on independence. The people of Northern Ireland, from both sides, are more or less united on not wanting independence - it's mainly a case of those wanting to stay within the Union and those wanting to join with the Irish Republic to form a united Ireland.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  5. #85
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    I actually resent being considered a northerner without being given the option to vote for the north. What sort of democracy is this?

  6. #86
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    I want the Scots to vote "Yes" (I live in England). Why should both Scottish students, and those from the EU pay no tuition fees if going to a Scottish uni, but the Englsih students having to pay the full fees even if they go to the same Scottish uni? Especially sincef the English taxpayers are partly funding these Scottish universities.

    Currently, it's a ridiculous situation:

    If you're going to a Scottish University,

    > A residence of Scotland? - No fees!
    > A resident of another EU country? No fees!
    > A resident of England ? - Full fees! of at least £9,000 per year
    Last edited by Yossarian; 10th September 2014 at 00:08.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I want the Scots to vote "Yes" (I live in England). Why should both Scottish students, and those from the EU pay no tuition fees if going to a Scottish uni, but the Englsih students having to pay the full fees even if they go to the same Scottish uni? Especially sincef the English taxpayers are partly funding these Scottish universities.

    Currently, it's a ridiculous situation:

    If you're going to a Scottish University,

    > A residence of Scotland? - No fees!
    > A resident of another EU country? No fees!
    > A resident of England ? - Full fees! of at least £9,000 per year
    Wow this makes no sense at all, why is this? Could you elaborate bit more, there has to be more to it.

    Also question of a topic, is uni the EU and Scotland free?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Have had some free time recently, and with it the chance to read a good chunk of the 670-page independence manifesto.

    To be honest the arguments are very persuasive, and the SNP looks to have captured media momentum just at the right moment. I can see Scotland voting Yes next week.
    whats your personal opinion?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmkextreme_1 View Post
    Wow this makes no sense at all, why is this? Could you elaborate bit more, there has to be more to it.

    Also question of a topic, is uni the EU and Scotland free?
    Due to EU laws. Worst of all, even if EU students would pay uni fees if they went to a uni in their own country, they are still entitled to be exempted from uni fees if studying at a Scottish uni - unless you are from England studying in Scotland that is.
    But it is not just students from Scotland who get free tuition at Scotland's 19 universities - under European law, students from other EU member states share the same entitlement.

    However, students from other parts of the UK do not and Scottish universities charge them tuition fees.
    ..........................................

    Because of European law, the Scottish government also has to provide free tuition at Scottish universities for students from other EU countries - but not for those from other parts of the UK.

    Essentially this is because it is possible to discriminate between students from different parts of an individual member state but not to discriminate against those from other parts of the EU.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23279868


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  10. #90
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    I am always confused between Scotland, England , Ireland and United Kingdom. Are these different name for same country or what?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikball View Post
    I am always confused between Scotland, England , Ireland and United Kingdom. Are these different name for same country or what?
    They are different countries but they all come under the United Kingdom.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Due to EU laws. Worst of all, even if EU students would pay uni fees if they went to a uni in their own country, they are still entitled to be exempted from uni fees if studying at a Scottish uni - unless you are from England studying in Scotland that is.
    I see, thanks man for explaining that.

    So what I got from it, if Scotland was to become independent then would tuition for UK students be free?

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I want the Scots to vote "Yes" (I live in England). Why should both Scottish students, and those from the EU pay no tuition fees if going to a Scottish uni, but the Englsih students having to pay the full fees even if they go to the same Scottish uni? Especially sincef the English taxpayers are partly funding these Scottish universities.

    Currently, it's a ridiculous situation:

    If you're going to a Scottish University,

    > A residence of Scotland? - No fees!
    > A resident of another EU country? No fees!
    > A resident of England ? - Full fees! of at least £9,000 per year
    A very good argument for not having Scotland part of the UK....NOT.

    To be honest, as a Scotsman, i do have empathy for my English, Welsh, Northern Irish friends.

    But when makign this argument you should also make clear that the Scottish government does not have a say in the matter of givine EU students a free ride. This is law placed upon the Universities by the EU. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23279868

    Rather than asking for Scotland to move out of UK, you should campaign for the UK to remove itself from Europe. Then you'll be a happy man.

    Personally, the YES NO vote is about a lot more than juts tuition fees.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmkextreme_1 View Post
    I see, thanks man for explaining that.

    So what I got from it, if Scotland was to become independent then would tuition for UK students be free?
    That is a distinct possibility. But first Scotland would have to apply and join the EU, which may not be completely straightforward.
    Also, the current setup is not as simple as it would seem. The Scottish universities still charge fees, but the Scottish Funding Council (SFC) actually pays the fees to the Scottish uni's for the Scottish and EU students. In theory, the Scottish and EU students do not directly compete for places with other UK students at Scottish universities, since the SFC sets aside a set number of funding places.

    It has been argued that if Scotland became independent after next year's referendum, then students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland would have to be offered free tuition too.
    ....
    Scottish students do not currently compete directly for places with applicants from other parts of the UK. The Scottish government, through the Scottish Funding Council (SFC), pays for a certain number of places for Scottish students and students from EU countries outside the UK.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23279868
    Last edited by Yossarian; 10th September 2014 at 09:25.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kean0 View Post
    A very good argument for not having Scotland part of the UK....NOT.

    To be honest, as a Scotsman, i do have empathy for my English, Welsh, Northern Irish friends.

    But when makign this argument you should also make clear that the Scottish government does not have a say in the matter of givine EU students a free ride. This is law placed upon the Universities by the EU. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23279868

    Rather than asking for Scotland to move out of UK, you should campaign for the UK to remove itself from Europe. Then you'll be a happy man.

    Personally, the YES NO vote is about a lot more than juts tuition fees.
    For UK students wishing to study at Scottish universities, it is a very good argument for hoping the Scots vote "yes". See the above post.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I want the Scots to vote "Yes" (I live in England). Why should both Scottish students, and those from the EU pay no tuition fees if going to a Scottish uni, but the Englsih students having to pay the full fees even if they go to the same Scottish uni? Especially sincef the English taxpayers are partly funding these Scottish universities.

    Currently, it's a ridiculous situation:

    If you're going to a Scottish University,

    > A residence of Scotland? - No fees!
    > A resident of another EU country? No fees!
    > A resident of England ? - Full fees! of at least £9,000 per year
    That is England's own fault. The only reason this rule exists is to prevent students looking for cheaper education to go to Scotland. If England had low tuitions like Scotland, English students would be allowed to study in Scotland for the same fee.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    That is England's own fault. The only reason this rule exists is to prevent students looking for cheaper education to go to Scotland. If England had low tuitions like Scotland, English students would be allowed to study in Scotland for the same fee.
    I don't think you understood the post. ie How British students (from England, Wales and NI) going to a British university (in Scotland), which is partly financed by the taxpayers from England, Wales and NI, have to pay the full fees, but an EU student going to the same university is exempt from paying the uni fees.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I don't think you understood the post. ie How British students (from England, Wales and NI) going to a British university (in Scotland), which is partly financed by the taxpayers from England, Wales and NI, have to pay the full fees, but an EU student going to the same university is exempt from paying the uni fees.
    I fail to see how that is supposed to be a bad thing.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I don't think you understood the post. ie How British students (from England, Wales and NI) going to a British university (in Scotland), which is partly financed by the taxpayers from England, Wales and NI, have to pay the full fees, but an EU student going to the same university is exempt from paying the uni fees.
    This is unfair, and is a good reason that Scotland becomes a separate country.. that way new UK will not have to fund the scottish universities, and its students will be eligible for scholarship as EU students.

  20. #100
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    Watch Andy Murray start waving his Scottish banner again if Scots vote for independence. If they stick with the union he'll keep a diplomatic silence the duplicitous rascal.

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Watch Andy Murray start waving his Scottish banner again if Scots vote for independence. If they stick with the union he'll keep a diplomatic silence the duplicitous rascal.
    Much like you waving the British flag until Pakistan wins at Cricket...

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bengaluru View Post
    Much like you waving the British flag until Pakistan wins at Cricket...
    It's okay for me to do it, I'm not Scottish.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    I fail to see how that is supposed to be a bad thing.
    You don't see why it's unfair (from an English students point of view if he's studying at a Scotland uni)?

    You don't see how the English student, whose parents taxes are partly funding the university, has to pay around £9,000 per year in fees, whilst those from Scotland, and especially those from other parts of the EU (even if their home uni's charge fees) get away with paying nothing, even when doing the same course at the same Scottish uni?

    If you don't see the unfairness of that, then ...... well I'll just leave it there!
    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    This is unfair, and is a good reason that Scotland becomes a separate country.. that way new UK will not have to fund the scottish universities, and its students will be eligible for scholarship as EU students.
    Correct!
    That's why, from the point of view of an English student wishing to study at a Scottish university, a 'yes' vote would be great.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 10th September 2014 at 16:39.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    You don't see why it's unfair (from an English students point of view if he's studying at a Scotland uni)? You don't see how the English student, whose parents taxes are partly funding the university, has to pay around £9,000 per year in fees, whilst those from Scotland, and especially those from other parts of the EU (even if their home uni's charge fees) get away with paying nothing, even when doing the same course at the same Scottish uni?
    No, I don't. England charges 20 000£ a year for university, any scottish or european student who would go and study in England would pay that. Scottish students can get scholarships if they go in EU countries and, even if they don't, they will never pay more than 1000-2000£ a year. If england wants to be a part of this constant exchange of students in all european countries, the ball is in their court, it's not on us to raise our tuitions.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    No, I don't. England charges 20 000£ a year for university, any scottish or european student who would go and study in England would pay that. Scottish students can get scholarships if they go in EU countries and, even if they don't, they will never pay more than 1000-2000£ a year. If england wants to be a part of this constant exchange of students in all european countries, the ball is in their court, it's not on us to raise our tuitions.
    Nobody's asking you to raise them. In fact, as I've said, I hope the Scots vote "yes". At least that way the English taxpayers will not be contributing towards Scottish and EU students fee-free uni places.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  26. #106
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    It will be close but Scotland will still vote 'no' imo. There are still a lot of 'undecided' voters (or at least those who say they are undecided) and if someone is undecided at this stage then it's not far fetched to say that most of them will vote 'no' because the status quo is less scary for them than the alternative.

    Even the bookies/betting exchanges still have 'No' as a firm favourite and this is based on a lot (5m alone on this one platform) of money.

    Name:  scotland.jpg
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    Nonetheless, the momentum that the 'Yes' side now have is hugely significant - they have done incredibly well to close the gap in the manner they have.

  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Nobody's asking you to raise them. In fact, as I've said, I hope the Scots vote "yes". At least that way the English taxpayers will not be contributing towards Scottish and EU students fee-free uni places.
    So, your complaint is not that Scottish uni is free for eu and scots but not for english, rather it is that your money goes into financing. That in itself is a false complaint because Scottish universities are mainly funded through a regional body and the money they get from the UK budget is proportional to their academic population and thus their contribution to the same budget. Your taxes are not paying for Scottish universities, scottish taxes are.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

  28. #108
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    I think the Scots will bottle it. They will have seen their companies' values dropping on the exchanges at the mere suggestion of a tight poll, and know that they will go into freefall in the event of a Yes vote. Then EU will not let them join the Euro for fear of having to prop up another dead man economy like Spain. There will be big unemployment and there will be a mass migration into England for work.

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    So, your complaint is not that Scottish uni is free for eu and scots but not for english, rather it is that your money goes into financing. That in itself is a false complaint because Scottish universities are mainly funded through a regional body and the money they get from the UK budget is proportional to their academic population and thus their contribution to the same budget. Your taxes are not paying for Scottish universities, scottish taxes are.
    In that case, wouldn't the Scots be better off with an independent Scotland? Either the Scottish students should pay the same fees as students from other parts of the UK no matter where they study, or else the Scots should do their own thing and go independent. And the same applies to the health service and everything else that has been devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Either be part of Britain with the same laws for everyone, or else become independent and do your own thing. Less of this half-way house devolution lark.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 10th September 2014 at 21:04.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    In that case, wouldn't the Scots be better off with an independent Scotland? Either the Scottish students should pay the same fees as students from other parts of the UK no matter where they study, or else the Scots should do their own thing and go independent. And the same applies to the health service and everything else that has been devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Either be part of Britain with the same laws for everyone, or else become independent and do your own thing. Less of this half-way house devolution lark.
    I agree with you on this; I was just explaining to you why what you deem to be unfair from Scots is actually either completely fair or a consequence of english exceptionalism.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

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  31. #111
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    Independence referendum: Exclusive Daily Record survey shows No campaign with six point lead
    THE fight to keep the UK together received a much needed boost tonight after a dramatic new poll showed support for independence has stalled.

    An exclusive survey for the Daily Record gives the No side a six point lead - the same margin as two months ago.

    But the Survation survey of 1000 Scots showed 47.6% plan to vote No a week tomorrow with 42.4% voting Yes. The poll was carried out between Friday evening and Tuesday morning.
    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/in...record-4196976

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I think the Scots will bottle it. They will have seen their companies' values dropping on the exchanges at the mere suggestion of a tight poll, and know that they will go into freefall in the event of a Yes vote. Then EU will not let them join the Euro for fear of having to prop up another dead man economy like Spain. There will be big unemployment and there will be a mass migration into England for work.
    Is this true independence or conditional independence? As in will the Sweaties have their own military and be responsible for their own defence or will the Poms and Taffs still be doing that for them?


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  33. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I think the Scots will bottle it. They will have seen their companies' values dropping on the exchanges at the mere suggestion of a tight poll, and know that they will go into freefall in the event of a Yes vote. Then EU will not let them join the Euro for fear of having to prop up another dead man economy like Spain. There will be big unemployment and there will be a mass migration into England for work.
    I'm not sure they'll bottle it as much as be outnumbered. Lots of Scots work in England, and lots of English folk have bought up Scottish property because it is cheap. I'm surprised that it has gone this far to be honest. There must be some deep rooted animosity.

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    Is this true independence or conditional independence? As in will the Sweaties have their own military and be responsible for their own defence or will the Poms and Taffs still be doing that for them?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    So say Scots vote for independence but 10 years down the line the populace feels they were better off as part of the Union as they got a free ride on most things and more employment opportunities and hence want to move back into the union!

    Any mechanism for that?

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I think the Scots will bottle it. They will have seen their companies' values dropping on the exchanges at the mere suggestion of a tight poll, and know that they will go into freefall in the event of a Yes vote. Then EU will not let them join the Euro for fear of having to prop up another dead man economy like Spain. There will be big unemployment and there will be a mass migration into England for work.
    all before considering what message eu endorsement of an independent scotland would send to aspirant nations like catalunia. eu main members have been very anti scot independence.

    on a side not if catalunia did eventually gain independence they would have my favourite european flag.

  36. #116
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    It really is interesting to see this from a perspective from our side of the world.

    We hear calls for independence in regions where there are genocides and blatant discrimination on a daily basis and even these calls are forcibly censored at most times. And compare that with this. What really is a legit gripe for them.

    If this kind of tamasha went around here then the whole subcontinent would be divided into a hundred countries!

  37. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarachiKing View Post
    It really is interesting to see this from a perspective from our side of the world.

    We hear calls for independence in regions where there are genocides and blatant discrimination on a daily basis and even these calls are forcibly censored at most times. And compare that with this. What really is a legit gripe for them.

    If this kind of tamasha went around here then the whole subcontinent would be divided into a hundred countries!
    It is most polite call for secession you will see.

    No armed conflict, war of independence or genocide. We are blessed to have such a peaceful campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    Is this true independence or conditional independence? As in will the Sweaties have their own military and be responsible for their own defence or will the Poms and Taffs still be doing that for them?
    SNP says it will set up a 15,000-strong "defence force" that would aid overseas peacekeeping and disaster relief operations, but would not be sent into conflicts like the Iraq War.

    The key defence issue though is the Trident nuclear deterrent. SNP are committed to nuclear disarmament, and building a new base to relocate the nuclear submarines may take a decade.

    On a side note - Every UK Prime Minister when elected to office must undergo the "nuclear briefing" - that he has four options in the event of a surprise nuclear attack on the UK:

    • retaliate with nuclear weapons;

    • not retaliate with nuclear weapons;

    • use his own judgement;

    • place the submarine under allied country command - such as the US, Canada or Australia.


    The PM's instructions are called "Letters of Last Resort". The letters are sealed in a safe aboard each of Britain's four Trident submarines. If Britain is substantially destroyed (God forbid) by a nuclear strike and the Prime Minister is killed, the captain of the submarine on patrol (one is always out there, armed and ready to strike) will open his safe, take out the prime minister's instructions, and act on them.

    I completely understand Salmond's position on this - I cannot fathom such a scenario where a PM sanctions the death of hundreds of thousands with a press of a button.
    Last edited by Markhor; 11th September 2014 at 14:16.

  38. #118
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    if its yes then I fear for England. The right wing will have a stranglehold on politics here and that means anti immigration, anti-muslim, backward looking policies.

  39. #119
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    To see the prime minister scampering up here to Scotland tells me that they know its better to have Scotland than not to have it.

    Then it'll be Wales =)

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    I hope Scotland becomes independent and joins the EU as an independent country. Personally, that is the best thing that can happen for British Pakistanis


    Whenever Nawaz wins, he divides PMLN equally. He keeps PM for himself and gives L N to the people.

  41. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    if its yes then I fear for England. The right wing will have a stranglehold on politics here and that means anti immigration, anti-muslim, backward looking policies.
    'A Stranglehold' is a serious exaggeration - take away the Scottish MPs and Labour would still have had a majority in '97, '01, '05. And if the current polls are correct we're headed for a Labour majority of 40-50 seats in 2015. So without the Scottish seats that would, as a worst case scenario for Labour, be a Lab-Lib Dem coalition.

    The FPTP system and the ways the boundaries were reformed under Blair means that it's very very difficult for the Tories to get a Westminster majority. And the way things are going their prospects in 2015, with or without Scotland, will not even bring them back as a coalition.
    Last edited by Gabbar Singh; 11th September 2014 at 15:44.

  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    I want the Scots to vote "Yes" (I live in England). Why should both Scottish students, and those from the EU pay no tuition fees if going to a Scottish uni, but the Englsih students having to pay the full fees even if they go to the same Scottish uni? Especially sincef the English taxpayers are partly funding these Scottish universities.

    Currently, it's a ridiculous situation:

    If you're going to a Scottish University,

    > A residence of Scotland? - No fees!
    > A resident of another EU country? No fees!
    > A resident of England ? - Full fees! of at least £9,000 per year
    If they vote for independence does that mean we wouldn't need to pay the 9 grand? i wanted to study in Scotland but when i realized that i had to be born there i was like allow it


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  43. #123
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    To all those thinking about what to do i think you need to watch Braveheart on the night before you cast your vote


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  44. #124
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    William Wallace: And if this is your army, why does it go?

    Veteran: We didn't come here to fight for them!

    Young Soldier: Home! The English are too many!

    William Wallace: Sons of Scotland! I am William Wallace.

    Young Soldier: William Wallace is seven feet tall!

    William Wallace: Yes, I've heard. Kills men by the hundreds. And if HE were here, he'd consume the English with fireballs from his eyes, and bolts of lightning from his ****.

    [Scottish army laughs]

    William Wallace: I *am* William Wallace! And I see a whole army of my countrymen, here in defiance of tyranny. You've come to fight as free men... and free men you are. What will you do with that freedom? Will you fight?

    Veteran: Fight? Against that? No! We will run. And we will live.

    William Wallace: Aye, fight and you may die. Run, and you'll live... at least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!

    [Scottish army cheers]

    William Wallace: Alba gu bràth!

    ["Scotland forever!"]

    Army: ALBA GU BRÀTH! ALBA GU BRÀTH! ALBA GU BRÀTH!


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  45. #125
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    Say YES for William Wallace

  46. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    'A Stranglehold' is a serious exaggeration - take away the Scottish MPs and Labour would still have had a majority in '97, '01, '05. And if the current polls are correct we're headed for a Labour majority of 40-50 seats in 2015. So without the Scottish seats that would, as a worst case scenario for Labour, be a Lab-Lib Dem coalition.

    The FPTP system and the ways the boundaries were reformed under Blair means that it's very very difficult for the Tories to get a Westminster majority. And the way things are going their prospects in 2015, with or without Scotland, will not even bring them back as a coalition.
    I hope you right.

  47. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    'A Stranglehold' is a serious exaggeration - take away the Scottish MPs and Labour would still have had a majority in '97, '01, '05. And if the current polls are correct we're headed for a Labour majority of 40-50 seats in 2015. So without the Scottish seats that would, as a worst case scenario for Labour, be a Lab-Lib Dem coalition.
    The Lib Dem vote will totally collapse. They're out of it.

    I think it more likely that as the recovery kicks in people will drift back to the right and we'll get a Tory-UKIP coalition, with all that GK fears.
    Last edited by Robert; 11th September 2014 at 17:50.

  48. #128
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    Scotland shouldn't leave.
    If they do, this could be the end of Great Britain and the United Kingdom.

  49. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    If they vote for independence does that mean we wouldn't need to pay the 9 grand? i wanted to study in Scotland but when i realized that i had to be born there i was like allow it
    It's nothing to do with where you were born. It's based upon residency, ie being an EU national and having lived in an EU country (except the UK apart from Scotland itself) for at least the previous 3 years. On that basis, someone who is British, born in England, but lived, say, in France (or another EU country, excluding England, Wales and NI) for the previous 3 years will still be eligible if wishing to study at a Scottish university.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    There will be so much upheaval if Scotland votes for independence. I don't see many benefits for such a small nation should they decide to go their own way. Things like the NHS, currency and even passport and travel issues will need a lot of time to sort out then there is the problem of so many Scottish and English people settled in each others so-called country. Will we then require a visa to travel across the Hadrian's wall or will the relationship be similar to that of England and Republic of Ireland?

    "Braveheart" type over exaggerated and feel good movies may be good to view but lack substance and logic like Scottish independence does.

  51. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laparwah View Post
    There will be so much upheaval if Scotland votes for independence. I don't see many benefits for such a small nation should they decide to go their own way. Things like the NHS, currency and even passport and travel issues will need a lot of time to sort out then there is the problem of so many Scottish and English people settled in each others so-called country.
    No different to Brits settling in France or Spain, or any other citizens of the EU settling in another EU country.
    Will we then require a visa to travel across the Hadrian's wall or will the relationship be similar to that of England and Republic of Ireland?
    Of course not - just as UK citizens currently do not require a visa to go visit /work / live in France, Spain, Germany or any other EU country. And vice versa.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  52. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    No different to Brits settling in France or Spain, or any other citizens of the EU settling in another EU country. Of course not - just as UK citizens currently do not require a visa to go visit /work / live in France, Spain, Germany or any other EU country. And vice versa.
    If your comments are right I don't see any benefit for Scotland seeking independence. The UK is stonger together.

  53. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laparwah View Post
    If your comments are right I don't see any benefit for Scotland seeking independence. The UK is stonger together.
    According to the polls, around half of those who have already made their minds up out of the over 4 million who have registered to vote in the referendum, give or take a percentage or two, disagree with you.

    The fact that you don't see any benefits for Scotland seeking independence is more a reflection of your lack of knowledge than anything else. Both sides, the "yes" and the "no", will agree that there are benefits in Scotland being independent, but there are also disadvantages. The question basically boils down to whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, or vice-versa. And that is how the Scottish voters will decide whether to vote "yes" or "no".


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  54. #134
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    Whatever your opinion on the debate this has to be the most hilarious stunt to take place during an election.

    Labour brought their A-team to Glasgow and as they walked throughout the city centre they were followed by a man in a rikshaw blaring star wars music and proclaiming ' your imperial masters have arrived'


    Genius!

  55. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    According to the polls, around half of those who have already made their minds up out of the over 4 million who have registered to vote in the referendum, give or take a percentage or two, disagree with you.

    The fact that you don't see any benefits for Scotland seeking independence is more a reflection of your lack of knowledge than anything else. Both sides, the "yes" and the "no", will agree that there are benefits in Scotland being independent, but there are also disadvantages. The question basically boils down to whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, or vice-versa. And that is how the Scottish voters will decide whether to vote "yes" or "no".
    Well naturally there will be both advantages and disadvantages. Lack of knowledge?? You have not even mentioned one advantage but only stating the obvious!!

  56. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Whatever your opinion on the debate this has to be the most hilarious stunt to take place during an election.

    Labour brought their A-team to Glasgow and as they walked throughout the city centre they were followed by a man in a rikshaw blaring star wars music and proclaiming ' your imperial masters have arrived'


    Genius!
    Probably the best thing I've seen in all of 2014! Genius!

  57. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Whatever your opinion on the debate this has to be the most hilarious stunt to take place during an election.

    Labour brought their A-team to Glasgow and as they walked throughout the city centre they were followed by a man in a rikshaw blaring star wars music and proclaiming ' your imperial masters have arrived'


    Genius!
    Thank you so much for showing this.

    I'm literally in tears


    See You Space Cowboy....

  58. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by srh View Post
    Say YES for William Wallace
    Hollywood history. The man was a brigand.

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    There are more intelligent people on this thread who could explain it to me but I heard something in the last few days that if Scotland get independence then David Cameron may have to resign, why would he have to resign if they get indepence? Sorry for my ignorance but some parts of the UK politics I don't get.

  60. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by PakFan85 View Post
    There are more intelligent people on this thread who could explain it to me but I heard something in the last few days that if Scotland get independence then David Cameron may have to resign, why would he have to resign if they get indepence? Sorry for my ignorance but some parts of the UK politics I don't get.
    He'll be tarred as the man who oversaw the breaking up of Britain.

    The attacks from the Yes campaign focus on the policies of his party especially under the last few years over his government.

    He is also the man who agreed to the vote and perhaps quite crucially refused to put the 3rd option of devo max on the ballot. Devo Max is now being offered for free if Scotland decides to stay.

    A no vote will be hugely embarrassing to say the least. The knives will be out in the Tory party and his position will become untenable.

    Boris will be your next PM!
    Last edited by DeadlyVenom; 13th September 2014 at 22:39.

  61. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    I think the Scots will bottle it. They will have seen their companies' values dropping on the exchanges at the mere suggestion of a tight poll, and know that they will go into freefall in the event of a Yes vote. Then EU will not let them join the Euro for fear of having to prop up another dead man economy like Spain. There will be big unemployment and there will be a mass migration into England for work.
    And people wonder why the 'Yes' campaign is gaining ground!!

  62. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Whatever your opinion on the debate this has to be the most hilarious stunt to take place during an election.

    Labour brought their A-team to Glasgow and as they walked throughout the city centre they were followed by a man in a rikshaw blaring star wars music and proclaiming ' your imperial masters have arrived'


    Genius!
    Omg I am in stitches!

    Thee must be some real deep anomosity.

    On a lighter note:


  63. #143
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    Alex Salmond's answer to everything seems to be 'they are scaremongering and bullying' and 'yes we WILL have a currency union', 'yes we WILL be in the EU', yes we WILL use the pound' etc and anyone who says anything different is a bully, liar etc.

    How can you debate with such a person?

    Anyway I'm glad it will all be over tomorrow.

  64. #144
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    Thought this was interesting - an eye opener for those who seem to think an independent Scotland is going to be some kind of socialist utopia.

    The right-wing business tycoons behind Alex Salmond's independence campaign


    At first sight, Rupert Murdoch and Alex Salmond do not make obvious bedfellows. Murdoch is the right-wing media mogul whose outlets, from the News of the World to Fox News, slap down progressive policy across the world. Salmond is the visionary leader promising a more socialist society for Scotland if it can break free of the rest of the UK.

    But Murdoch's trip to Scotland last week was just the latest stage in a long friendship between the two men, in which back-room efforts to help Murdoch's business goals coincide with favourable media coverage.

    Salmond enjoys this type of relationship with several wealthy right-wing figures from across the world. He "called in" a golf course for Donald Trump above the wishes of local residents. He accepted donations from Stagecoach boss Brian Souter shortly before changing SNP policy on bus regulation. The list goes on.

    The full extent of Salmond's friendship with Murdoch only really came to light during the phone-hacking scandal. A month after the News of the World shut down it was revealed Salmond had held over two dozen meetings with Murdoch, his son James - who ran News International and BSkyB - and other Murdoch editors and executives.

    During this time the SNP developed a secret policy of backing Murdoch's BSkyB bid, which was not to be made public. Emails released by News Corporation showed Salmond agreed to make a call to Jeremy Hunt, then media secretary, to support the takeover attempt.

    Meanwhile, social events continued apace. Salmond and Murdoch exchanged gushing letters, held private dinners and offered each other tickets to sporting events. Salmond was Murdoch's guest of honour for an unveiling of his company's new printing presses. Murdoch was given tickets by Salmond to see a National Theatre play on Iraq. He then sent him tickets to the Ryder Cup golf tournament as an official Scottish government guest. The media mogul was the first minister's guest of honour at a special pageant in Edinburgh castle. Murdoch called Salmond the "most brilliant politician in UK".

    The friendship coincided with a period of growing support for the SNP from Murdoch's Scottish newspaper. In 2007 the Sun put the SNP logo in a noose on its front page with a dire warning about calamity if Scots opted for the nationalists. But by the next election it abandoned its support for Labour and swung behind Salmond. Editor David Dinsmore wrote to him days afterwards congratulating him on his "astonishing victory".

    As the 'Yes camp gained ground in the polls last week, Murdoch said a vote for independence would be a "huge black eye for whole political establishment" and then added: "Everything [is] up for grabs". It's unclear what he meant by this, but in the same week Salmond went on the offensive against the BBC, refusing to answer Nick Robinson's questions at a press conference and threatening to force it into an inquiry about Treasury leaks. On Sunday, a large demonstration of 'Yes' supporters took place outside the BBC building, in which large posters of Robinson were raised singling out the journalist for allegedly biased reporting.

    Accusations of cronyism have long haunted Salmond. His relationship with Stagecoach boss Souter has proved hardly less problematic than his one with Murdoch.
    Souter founded Stagecoach with his sister and proceeded to take full advantage of the deregulation of bus services in the UK. He ran free or low-fare bases on local routes to push other firms out the market – a practice deemed "predatory, deplorable and against the public interest" by the Monopolies Commission.

    The tycoon had a sideline in anti-gay rights campaigning. He spent a million pounds organising a private referendum across Scotland against attempts to repeal the infamous Section 28 law outlawing the 'promotion of homosexuality'. He warned society was in danger of "imploding" into a "Babylonian-Greek" culture where sex is "primarily a recreational activity", if "traditional marriage" continued to decline.

    In 2007, Salmond received a big donation from Souter and called him "one of the outstanding entrepreneurs of his generation". The donation came not long after the party opposed the right for gay couples to be given equal treatment by Catholic adoption agencies and the snubbing of a gay rights debate. One month after the donation, the SNP dropped its commitment for increased regulation of the bus network.

    Similar complaints were made when Salmond rode roughshod over the wishes of local residents and planners to "call in" the decision to approve Donald Trump's golf complex plan on the Aberdeenshire coast.

    The area was one of special scientific and environmental sensitivity. Councillors rejected the development. Salmond's government overruled them.

    Two documentary films were made about the row by Anthony Baxter. To his credit, Trump did at least agree to talk to the director. But after four years of asking for an interview, Salmond refuses to meet with him.

    Baxter said:

    "Whatever you may think of the Trumps, they cooperated fully and answered all of our questions.

    "The same can't be said of Scotland's first minister Alex Salmond, whose government made the decision to allow Trump to destroy a protected conservation site of special scientific interest, in order to build Aberdeenshire's 62nd golf course.

    "Our efforts to interview the first minister took up several months. To begin with, his office requested that any interview be played in its entirety in the final film. After we refused, his office scheduled, postponed, rescheduled, then finally cancelled the interview at the last minute.

    "Among other things, we wanted to ask the first minister on camera about the effect of the Trump golf course development on local residents, including a 90-year-old woman who hasn't had a proper water supply for four years, and about what happened to the 6,000 jobs his government promised when approving the development."

    Salmond's assessment of good business practice was raised again when it emerged how strongly he egged on the calamitous acquisition of ABN Amro, which sunk the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS).

    In 2007, Salmond wrote to Fred 'the Shred' Goodwin:

    "I want you to know I am watching events closely on the ABN front. It is in Scottish interests for RBS to be successful, and I would like to offer any assistance my office can provide. Good luck with the bid."

    It was a remarkable letter to have sent. The Scottish first minister was advising an FTSE 100 company to load up on debt and make a highly questionable acquisition which would later come to destroy it. A few months and £45 billion in taxpayer's money later, Salmond admitted he regretted it. But for many businessmen, the link between friendship with Salmond and policy-making was clear enough.

    Many wealthy right-wingers behind the Scottish independence campaign have a very different view of Scotland to the one being promoted by SNP's official literature. Social democracy and a generous welfare system are nowhere to be seen in this account. Instead, independence will open up the economy to further private interests as Scotland cuts down on regulations to attract foreign investment.

    As Michael Fry, the founder of independence site Wealthy Nation, said: "We must make clear to voters that they can most readily make their country better by emulating their Victorian forebears in the pursuit of profitable opportunities."

    Jim McColl, who is domiciled in Monaco with his £800 million fortune, is an official economic adviser to Salmond. His vision of Scotland is very far away from the aims of campaigners on the street. It is also very different to Salmond's rhetoric, although not to his actions. After all, despite demanding more tax powers for a fairer society, the SNP leader's only actual tax policy is to cut corporation tax by three per cent below the rest of the UK.

    The PR for the 'Yes' camp remains resolutely left-wing and idealistic. But behind the scenes, there are men of a quite different character egging it on.
    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2014...lmond-s-indepe

  65. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Hollywood history. The man was a brigand.
    Wrong. William Wallace is a hero for scots. And english did force scottish women to spend first night of their wedding with them instead of their husbands. We have a scottish woman in our office and she has confirmed it. this is extreme low for english
    Last edited by srh; 17th September 2014 at 15:31.

  66. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    Thought this was interesting - an eye opener for those who seem to think an independent Scotland is going to be some kind of socialist utopia.



    http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2014...lmond-s-indepe
    is it true that most of the funding came from 2 lottery winners?

  67. #147
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    I think the novelty factor of becoming independent for Scotland is what draws people to vote yes, there are plenty of influential people who will tell them they will be better off in the long run, they no longer will have to listen to Westminster and that their decisions and fate will now be in their own hands

    Ultimately though , it leads Scotland to fall by it's own sword, to treat such a decision so lightly and without giving any forbearance to it's history and it's tradition in being part of GB, could lead to a decision made in haste and one , if they regret years later, they will be unable to return from


    "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles"

  68. #148
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    'Azaadi Azaadi!!'

    'Scotland ka matlab kya?'

  69. #149
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    OK so tomorrow is the big day. The latest opinion polls are showing YES = 48%, NO = 52%. The three year long campaign is over in a matter of hours.

    Seems like both sides are desperate for every last vote

    Concern as child aged three registered to vote in referendum

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...eferendum.html

    Children as young as three have been registered to vote in a pro-independence area, raising concerns about the integrity of the election process in the Scottish referendum.

    Pro-union campaigners fear rules allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to vote are open to error or abuse as it emerged that in Dundee, a Yes stronghold, there were almost 10 per cent more 16 and 17-year-olds registered to vote than were living in the city.

    Due to privacy laws, 16 and 17-year-olds are listed on a special “young voters’ register” which is not subject to the same scrutiny as the adult register – a public document.

    This lack of scrutiny allows the undetected registration of children younger than 16 and therefore not entitled to vote. Once combined on a single register, young voters and adult voters are indistinguishable from one another.


    In Dundee, there were 3,649 young voters registered – 317 more than the actual number of 16 and 17-year-olds living in the city, according to 2014 population figures issued by the Scottish Government.
    George Galloway is also fiery as usual, he's on the Just Say Naw side. One pro-independence guy said to him - "Its not separation, we're evolving."

    Galloway - "if you and your wife divorced would you call it evolving ?" don't particularly like him but that was a sharp one.
    Last edited by Markhor; 17th September 2014 at 17:15.

  70. #150
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    I'm neither British nor Scottish, but I would like them to vote no because a yes vote would cause a domino effect across the world and many other separatist movements would have a stronger case for a referendum.

  71. #151
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    So what's the latest on our Sweatie friends and their referendum? Will Alex Wallace win? Or will Regent Lord Alastair hold out for the Queen and prevent the final extinguishing of Empire?


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  72. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    OK so tomorrow is the big day. The latest opinion polls are showing YES = 48%, NO = 52%. The three year long campaign is over in a matter of hours.

    Seems like both sides are desperate for every last vote

    Concern as child aged three registered to vote in referendum

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...eferendum.html
    Is there truth to the rumour that unborn Sweatie babies are also being registered to vote just in case they are born in the next few hours?
    Last edited by OZGOD; 17th September 2014 at 19:38.


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  73. #153
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    Let's get into the spirit!



    O Flower of Scotland

    O flower of Scotland
    When will we see
    Your like again
    That fought and died for
    Your wee bit hill and glen
    And stood against him
    Proud Edward's army
    And sent him homeward
    Tae think again

    The hills are bare now
    And autumn leaves lie thick and still
    O'er land that is lost now
    Which those so dearly held
    And stood against him
    Proud Edward's army
    And sent him homeward
    Tae think again

    Those days are passed now
    And in the past they must remain
    But we can still rise now
    And be the nation again
    And stood against him
    Proud Edward's army
    And sent him homeward
    Tae think again
    Last edited by OZGOD; 17th September 2014 at 19:39.


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  74. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by srh View Post
    Wrong. William Wallace is a hero for scots. And english did force scottish women to spend first night of their wedding with them instead of their husbands. We have a scottish woman in our office and she has confirmed it. this is extreme low for english
    Firstly, I doubt that one in a hundred Scots had heard of Wallace until that film was released. Secondly, Primae noctis seems a Eurasian myth, first mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh but considered unlikely to have happened according to serious historians, and certainly not official fourteenth-century English policy. Thirdly, the film shows the Scots defending against an England cavalry charge at Stirling Bridge using massed ranks of pikemen, but what really happened was that the cavalrymen could only cross the bridge three abreast and were mown down by the Scottish slingers and archers as they did. What bridge, you ask? The one that isn't in the film because it would subtract from the drama. Finally, "Brave Heart" was the nickname for Robert Bruce, not Wallace.

    So you see, Scots who eulogise Wallace are really only thinking of Mel Gibson, who has freely admitted that the film is historically inspired fantasy.

  75. #155
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    This is it, today is the day when a 307 year old union either lives or dies.

    Both Gordon Brown and Alex Salmond gave the speeches of a lifetime yesterday. This is the culmination of an entire life's work for Scottish politicians either side of the debate. This referendum is the very cause for the SNP's existence.




  76. #156
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    Imagine how pumped up this guy is today.

    "IN THE NAME OF....JESUS !"

  77. #157
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    Ive been thinking about my position on this and I will go with a No. Bad for minorities and Muslims if there is a Yes. The UKIP right wing anti muslim agenda will take hold in England and we could have real problems. With a race to the bottom initiated due to salmonds desire to attract business to Scotland , its goodbye welfare state. Soon as the economy tanks in Scotland they'll blame minorities as is the case in most societies. We are better together.

  78. #158
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    As I predicted earlier, Andy Murray has jumped on the independence bandwagon.

    Andy Murray has backed Scottish independence in a move stunning supporters.In an eleventh hour decision the British tennis player tweeted fans:

    “Huge day for Scotland today! No campaign negativity last few days totally swayed my view on it. Excited to see the outcome. Lets do this!”
    If you don't win the vote don't bother waving the Union flag Andy, no one is going to fall for it.

  79. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    As I predicted earlier, Andy Murray has jumped on the independence bandwagon.

    Andy Murray has backed Scottish independence in a move stunning supporters.In an eleventh hour decision the British tennis player tweeted fans:

    If you don't win the vote don't bother waving the Union flag Andy, no one is going to fall for it.
    So much for Murray Mount and home advantage next time he's at Wimbledon.

  80. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    As I predicted earlier, Andy Murray has jumped on the independence bandwagon.

    Andy Murray has backed Scottish independence in a move stunning supporters.In an eleventh hour decision the British tennis player tweeted fans:



    If you don't win the vote don't bother waving the Union flag Andy, no one is going to fall for it.
    so what if the No vote wins? shouldn't we accept that he is British even though he may have voted yes? I will still support him.

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