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Thread: Al-Quran, Verse 3:7

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    Al-Quran, Verse 3:7

    Fellows in faith, bring in your understanding of this verse. Any examples for type of verses mentioned within this verse would be appreciated.

    3:7 (Y. Ali) He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
    3:7 (Picktall) He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations--They are the substance of the Book--and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
    3:7 (Asad) He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical. Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.

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    I'm glad this verse is in because if it wasnt for this verse our scholars would take even more liberties than they do at the moment

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    I particularly find the notion interesting that verses in the Quran are specifically put in there that are not designed for the human mind to comprehend.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Sahih International
    It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

    The highlighted bit is so true today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saqib S View Post
    I particularly find the notion interesting that verses in the Quran are specifically put in there that are not designed for the human mind to comprehend.
    Okay. I'd like to hear this theory extrapolated.

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    Interesting thread. The attached PDF file covers the opinion of 'Al-Mawrid' Institution´s sholars (which includes Javed Ahmad Ghamidi).

    Please read from page 21 of the Adobe Reader (meaning page 14 of the file). Name of the relevant chapter is "Only God knows the Meaning of Certain Qur´anic Verses".

    Of course, just merely sharing something interesting and someone´s view/opinion.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Saqib S View Post
    I particularly find the notion interesting that verses in the Quran are specifically put in there that are not designed for the human mind to comprehend.
    You mean people who do not understand the relevant language cannot read.

    Aql vs Knowledge.

    PS: Qur'an means recital - so the more you will read, the more you will understand; just like any other book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal View Post
    You mean people who do not understand the relevant language cannot read.
    This was basically my immediate response as well lol.
    Last edited by James; 11th December 2012 at 10:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal View Post
    You mean people who do not understand the relevant language cannot read.

    Aql vs Knowledge.

    PS: Qur'an means recital - so the more you will read, the more you will understand; just like any other book.
    What is your understanding of phrases like alif laam meem etc? We can read the words but are clueless about the meaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    What is your understanding of phrases like alif laam meem etc? We can read the words but are clueless about the meaning.
    Was just thinking this .


    A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    What is your understanding of phrases like alif laam meem etc? We can read the words but are clueless about the meaning.
    Not sure 100% but from what I have read, ALM are not even words, just letters.

    I believe they're code related to the numerical 19 (Golden ratio).
    Last edited by Namak_Halaal; 11th December 2012 at 11:14.

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    Well heres the Tafsir on it from Ibn Kathir...


    The Mutashabihat and Muhkamat Ayat

    Allah said,

    هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ ...

    It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear,
    Allah states that in the Qur'an, there are Ayat that are Muhkamat, entirely clear and plain, and these are the foundations of the Book which are plain for everyone.

    And there are Ayat in the Qur'an that are Mutashabihat not entirely clear for many, or some people. So those who refer to the Muhkam Ayat to understand the Mutashabih Ayat, will have acquired the correct guidance, and vice versa.

    This is why Allah said,

    ... هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ ...

    They are the foundations of the Book, meaning, they are the basis of the Qur'an, and should be referred to for clarification, when warranted.

    ... وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ...

    And others not entirely clear, as they have several meanings, some that agree with the Muhkam and some that carry other literal indications, although these meaning might not be desired.

    The Muhkamat are the Ayat, that explain the abrogating rulings, the allowed, prohibited, laws, limits, obligations and rulings that should be believed in and implemented.

    As for the Mutashabihat Ayat, they include the abrogated Ayat, parables, oaths, and what should be believed in, but not implemented.

    Muhammad bin Ishaq bin Yasar commented on, مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ (In it are verses that are entirely clear) as,

    "Containing proof of the Lord, immunity for the servants and a refutation of opponents and of falsehood. They cannot be changed or altered from what they were meant for.''

    He also said,

    "As for the unclear Ayat, they can (but must not) be altered and changed, and this is a test from Allah to the servants, just as He tested them with the allowed and prohibited things. So these Ayat must not be altered to imply a false meaning or be distorted from the truth.''

    Therefore, Allah said,

    ... فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ ...

    So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation, meaning, those who are misguided and deviate from truth to falsehood.

    ... فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ...

    they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, meaning, they refer to the Mutashabih, because they are able to alter its meanings to conform with their false interpretation since the wordings of the Mutashabihat encompass such a wide area of meanings.

    As for the Muhkam Ayat, they cannot be altered because they are clear and, thus, constitute unequivocal proof against the misguided people.

    This is why Allah said,

    ... ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ ...

    seeking Al-Fitnah, meaning, they seek to misguide their following by pretending to prove their innovation by relying on the Qur'an -- the Mutashabih of it -- but, this is proof against and not for them.

    For instance, Christians might claim that (`Isa is divine because) the Qur'an states that he is Ruhullah and His Word, which He gave to Mary, all the while ignoring Allah's statements,

    إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا عَبْدٌ أَنْعَمْنَا عَلَيْهِ
    (He (`Isa) was not more than a servant. We granted Our favor to him.) (43:59) and,

    إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثِمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ

    Verily, the likeness of `Isa before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!'' and he was. (3:59)

    There are other Ayat that clearly assert that `Isa is but one of Allah's creatures and that he is the servant and Messenger of Allah, among other Messengers.
    Allah's statement,

    ... وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ ...

    And seeking for its Ta'wil,to alter them as they desire.

    Imam Ahmad recorded that Aishah said,

    "The Messenger of Allah recited,

    هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ

    (It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book; and others not entirely clear), until, أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ (Men of understanding) and he said,

    فَإِذَا رَأَيْتُمُ الَّذِين يُجَادِلُونَ فِيهِ، فَهُمُ الَّذِينَ عَنَى اللهُ، فَاحْذَرُوهُم

    When you see those who argue in it (using the Mutashabihat), then they are those whom Allah meant. Therefore, beware of them.''

    Al-Bukhari recorded a similar Hadith in the Tafsir of this Ayah (3:7) as did Muslim in the book of Qadar (the Divine Will) in his Sahih, and Abu Dawud in the Sunnah section of his Sunan, from Aishah;

    "The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah, هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ (It is He Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are entirely clear), until, وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ (And none receive admonition except men of understanding). He then said,

    فَإِذَا رَأَيْتِ الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ؛ فَأُولئِكَ الَّذِينَ سَمَّى اللهُ، فَاحْذَرُوهُم

    When you see those who follow what is not so clear of the Qur'an, then they are those whom Allah described, so beware of them.''

    This is the wording recorded by Al-Bukhari.

    Only Allah Knows the True Ta'wil (Interpretation) of the Mutashabihat

    Allah said,

    ... وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ ...

    But none knows its Ta'wil except Allah.

    Similarly, as preceded in what has been reported from Ibn Abbas,

    "Tafsir is of four types:
    Tafsir that the Arabs know in their language;
    Tafsir that no one is excused of being ignorant of;
    Tafsir that the scholars know; and
    Tafsir that only Allah knows.''

    Scholars of Qur'an recitation have different opinions about pausing at Allah's Name in this Ayah. This stop was reported from Aishah, Urwah, Abu Ash-Sha`tha' and Abu Nahik.

    Some pause after reciting, وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ (And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge), saying that the Qur'an does not address the people with what they cannot understand.
    Ibn Abi Najih said that Mujahid said that Ibn Abbas said,

    "I am among those who are firmly grounded in its Ta'wil interpretation.''

    The Messenger of Allah supplicated for the benefit of Ibn Abbas,

    اللَّهُمَّ فَقِّهْهُ فِي الدِّينِ وَعَلِّمْهُ التَّأْوِيل

    O Allah! Bestow on him knowledge in the religion and teach him the Ta'wil (interpretation).
    Ta'wil has two meanings in the Qur'an, the true reality of things, and
    what they will turn out to be.

    For instance, Allah said,

    وَقَالَ يأَبَتِ هَـذَا تَأْوِيلُ رُؤْيَـى مِن قَبْلُ

    And he said: "O my father! This is the Ta'wil of my dream aforetime!'' (12:100)
    and,

    هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلاَّ تَأْوِيلَهُ يَوْمَ يَأْتِى تَأْوِيلُهُ

    Await they just for it's Ta'wil On the Day (Day of Resurrection) it's Ta'wil is finally fulfilled. (7:53)
    refers to the true reality of Resurrection that they were told about.

    If this is the meaning desired in the Ayah above (3:7) then pausing after reciting Allah's Name is warranted, because only Allah knows the true reality of things.

    In this case, Allah's statement, وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ (And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge) is connected to His statement, يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ (say: "We believe in it'').

    If the word Ta'wil means the second meaning, that is, explaining and describing, such as what Allah said, نَبِّئْنَا بِتَأْوِيلِهِ ((They said): "Inform us of the Ta'wil of this''), (12:36) meaning its explanation, then pausing after reciting, وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ (And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge) is warranted.

    This is because the scholars have general knowledge in, and understand what they were addressed with, even though they do not have knowledge of the true reality of things. Therefore, Allah's statement, يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ (say: "We believe in it'') describes the conduct of the scholars.

    Similarly, Allah said,

    وَجَآءَ رَبُّكَ وَالْمَلَكُ صَفّاً صَفّاً

    And your Lord comes, and the angels, in rows. (89:22)
    means, your Lord will come, and the angels will come in rows.
    Allah's statement that the knowledgeable people proclaim,

    ... يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ ...

    We believe in it,
    means, they believe in the Mutashabih.

    ... كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ...

    all of it is from our Lord,
    meaning, both the Muhkam and the Mutashabih are true and authentic, and each one of them testifies to the truth of the other. This is because they both are from Allah and nothing that comes from Allah is ever met by contradiction or discrepancy.

    Allah said,

    أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْءَانَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلَـفاً كَثِيراً

    Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully! Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein many a contradiction. (4:82)

    Allah said in this Ayah,

    ... وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ ﴿٧﴾

    And none receive admonition except men of understanding.

    meaning, those who have good minds and sound comprehension, understand, contemplate and comprehend the meaning in the correct manner.

    Further, Ibn Al-Mundhir recorded in his Tafsir that Nafi` bin Yazid said,
    "Those firmly grounded in knowledge are those who are modest for Allah's sake, humbly seek His pleasure, and do not exaggerate regarding those above them, or belittle those below them.''

    Allah said that they supplicate to their Lord,

    رَبَّنَا لاَ تُزِغْ قُلُوبَنَا بَعْدَ إِذْ هَدَيْتَنَا ...

    Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after You have guided us.
    meaning, "Do not deviate our hearts from the guidance after You allowed them to acquire it. Do not make us like those who have wickedness in their hearts, those who follow the Mutashabih in the Qur'an. Rather, make us remain firmly on Your straight path and true religion.''

    ... وَهَبْ لَنَا مِن لَّدُنكَ ...

    And grant us from Ladunka,

    meaning, from You,

    ... رَحْمَةً ...

    Mercy,

    with which You make our hearts firm, and increase in our Faith and certainty,

    ... إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ ﴿٨﴾

    Truly, You are the Bestower.

    Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir recorded that Umm Salamah said that the Prophet used to supplicate,

    يَا مُقَلِّبَ الْقُلُوبِ ثَبِّتْ قَلْبِي عَلَى دِينِك

    O You Who changes the hearts, make my heart firm on Your religion.
    He then recited,


    رَبَّنَا لاَ تُزِغْ قُلُوبَنَا بَعْدَ إِذْ هَدَيْتَنَا وَهَبْ لَنَا مِن لَّدُنكَ رَحْمَةً إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ

    "Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after You have guided us, and grant us mercy from You. Truly, You are the Bestower.''


    The Ayah continues,

    رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ جَامِعُ النَّاسِ لِيَوْمٍ لاَّ رَيْبَ فِيهِ ...

    "Our Lord! Verily, it is You Who will gather mankind together on the Day about which there is no doubt''

    meaning, they say in their supplication: O our Lord! You will gather Your creation on the Day of Return, judge between them and decide over what they disputed about. Thereafter, You will reward or punish each according to the deeds they did in this life.

    ... إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يُخْلِفُ الْمِيعَادَ ﴿٩﴾

    Verily, Allah never breaks His Promise.''

    (Mercy) with which You make our hearts firm, and increase in our Faith and certainty,

    ﴿إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ﴾

    (Truly, You are the Bestower)

    Ibn Abi Hatim and Ibn Jarir recorded that Umm Salamah said that the Prophet used to supplicate,

    «يَا مُقَلِّبَ الْقُلُوبِ ثَبِّتْ قَلْبِي عَلَى دِينِك»

    (O You Who changes the hearts, make my heart firm on Your religion.)

    He then recited,

    ﴿رَبَّنَا لاَ تُزِغْ قُلُوبَنَا بَعْدَ إِذْ هَدَيْتَنَا وَهَبْ لَنَا مِن لَّدُنكَ رَحْمَةً إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ ﴾

    ("Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after You have guided us, and grant us mercy from You. Truly, You are the Bestower.'') The Ayah continues,

    ﴿رَبَّنَآ إِنَّكَ جَامِعُ النَّاسِ لِيَوْمٍ لاَّ رَيْبَ فِيهِ﴾

    ("Our Lord! Verily, it is You Who will gather mankind together on the Day about which there is no doubt'') meaning, they say in their supplication: O our Lord! You will gather Your creation on the Day of Return, judge between them and decide over what they disputed about. Thereafter, You will reward or punish each according to the deeds they did in this life.

    ﴿إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لَن تُغْنِىَ عَنْهُمْ أَمْوَلُهُمْ وَلاَ أَوْلـدُهُم مِّنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئًا وَأُولَـئِكَ هُمْ وَقُودُ النَّارِ - كَدَأْبِ ءَالِ فِرْعَوْنَ وَالَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ كَذَّبُواْ بِأَيَـتِنَا فَأَخَذَهُمُ اللَّهُ بِذُنُوبِهِمْ وَاللَّهُ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ ﴾

    (10. Verily, those who disbelieve, neither their properties nor their offspring will avail them whatsoever against Allah; and it is they who will be fuel of the Fire.) (11. Like the behavior of the people of Fir`awn and those before them; they belied Our Ayat. So Allah punished them for their sins. And Allah is severe in punishment.)


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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    Interesting thread. The attached PDF file covers the opinion of 'Al-Mawrid' Institution´s sholars (which includes Javed Ahmad Ghamidi).

    Please read from page 21 of the Adobe Reader (meaning page 14 of the file). Name of the relevant chapter is "Only God knows the Meaning of Certain Qur´anic Verses".

    Of course, just merely sharing something interesting and someone´s view/opinion.
    Thanks. Its very well-written and makes a lot of sense. I think it removes all confusions regarding this verse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR__KHAN__JI View Post
    I'm glad this verse is in because if it wasnt for this verse our scholars would take even more liberties than they do at the moment
    Actually other way round I think such scholars use this verse and example of other allegorical verses to scare of ordinary people from attempting to understand the quran.

    P.S. An interesting thread for you to read in your spare time:

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...ad.php?t=28805

    Quote Originally Posted by Saqib S View Post
    I particularly find the notion interesting that verses in the Quran are specifically put in there that are not designed for the human mind to comprehend.
    That's too generic an assumption. If no human mind can comprehend at all such verses then there was no point including them. The unspecific verses are said to be understandable (using comparable concepts of human world or with the help of more specific verses) to some degree. However some people strive for magical/hidden meaning and they are not well intentioned according to Allah.

    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    Interesting thread. The attached PDF file covers the opinion of 'Al-Mawrid' Institution´s sholars (which includes Javed Ahmad Ghamidi).

    Please read from page 21 of the Adobe Reader (meaning page 14 of the file). Name of the relevant chapter is "Only God knows the Meaning of Certain Qur´anic Verses".
    Thanks for that link Dhoni183. Was a good read.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    What is your understanding of phrases like alif laam meem etc? We can read the words but are clueless about the meaning.
    Interestingly the verse 3:7 doesn't seems to be addressing such (code style) letters, and If I am not wrong these letters are never part of any verse. Perhaps only the mean of 'deep understanding/knowledge' can figure out (as claimed in the verse 3:7). Anyway such words and verses are not the foundation of Quran hence not required to be understood by every individual.

    @shaykh1985 Thanks for the tafseer. Bit similar to what is explained in the link posted by Dhoni183.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mumtaz View Post
    Thanks. Its very well-written and makes a lot of sense. I think it removes all confusions regarding this verse.
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmz View Post
    Thanks for that link Dhoni183. Was a good read.
    My pleasure, gentlemen.


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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    Okay. I'd like to hear this theory extrapolated.




    Quote Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal View Post
    You mean people who do not understand the relevant language cannot read.

    Aql vs Knowledge.

    PS: Qur'an means recital - so the more you will read, the more you will understand; just like any other book.


    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    This was basically my immediate response as well lol.

    DV basically stated exactly what I was going to.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    What is your understanding of phrases like alif laam meem etc? We can read the words but are clueless about the meaning.
    James there are various verses in the Quran like the aforementioned Alif Laam Meem where no scholar to date has comprehended the meaning. In fact it is almost there as a challenge and a reminder that although you are to Read (Iqra) - note you will not fully understand everything. There will still be things out there that are beyond your comprehension and this limit is not there because of a lack of knowledge because the best of scholars have not been able to understand them.

    That's what I am reminded of when it read the verse in the OP. That there is a rich layering of meanings in the Quranic verses. Some of which we cannot understand and so should not fight and squabble over.

    That men of understanding realise their own limitations and leave certain things up to God.

    To me - belonging to a religion means that I accept there is a bigger truth out there outside my own understanding and experience. This is what these verses remind me of.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Alif Lam Meem are muqatta'at, in English generally translated as "disjointed letters", which means that the sound understanding of these letters are outside the real of mere semantics, so they should be treated as "signs" - in a semiotic way, that is in all their potentialities independently from what they seem.
    I personally think that it represents the unity of the Divine reality (Alif-Lam-Meem), but the supreme act of pure cognition - the generator - belongs to God only (Alif, Alpha, the One) whereas the mere mortal (Meem) is a receptacle of phenomenal (meaning fragmentary) knowledge taught by a spiritual mediator (the Prophet, Lâm) whose knowledge, delivered by God, encompasses the more subtle knowledge of created beings, the noumenons (an sich, "(objects) as they are") ; you can see that Alif is totally distanced from Lam-Meem who are inter-connected.
    From the antic Hindu philosophy Advaita Vedanta where it's taught that the Self (atman) is a drop in the wider cosmological Whole (brahman) to, way later, Christian mystic Meister Eckhart who postulated that "... just as a spring, which perpetually flows and waters the roots of the flowers, so that the flowers bloom and receive their colours from the water of the spring, so the Godhead imparts Itself to the capacities of the soul that it may grow in the likeness of God. The more that the soul receives of the Divine Nature, the more it grows like It, and the closer becomes its union with God", Alif-Lam-Meem represent the perennial aim of any legitimate spiritual path representative of the universal Tradition : union with God, by following the gradual scale of cognition (Meem, Lam, Alif.)



    To understand better on PP (the majority being from Pakistan), a poem by Punjabi Sufi poet Baba Farid illustrates it well, as he understood the nature of God:



    O’ Beauty of Truth, the Eternal Light!
    Do I call you necessity and possibility,
    Do I call you the ancient divinity,
    The One, creation and the world,
    Do I call you free and pure Being,
    Or the apparent lord of all,
    Do I call you the souls, the egos and the intellects,
    The imbued manifest, and the imbued hidden,
    The actual reality, the substance,
    The word, the attribute and dignity,
    Do I call you the variety, and the circumstance,
    The demeanour, and the measure,
    Do I call you the throne and the firmament,
    And the demurring delights of Paradise,
    Do I call you mineral and vegetable,
    Animal and human,
    Do I call you the mosque, the temple, the monastery,
    The scriptures, the Quran,
    The rosary, the girdle,
    Godlessness, and faith,
    Do I call you the clouds, the flash, the thunder,
    Lightning and the downpour,
    Water and earth,
    The gust and the inferno,
    Do I call you Lakshmi, and Ram and lovely Sita,
    Baldev, Shiv, Nand, and Krishna,
    Brahma, Vishnu and Ganesh,
    Mahadev and Bhagvaan,
    Do I call you the Gita, the Granth, and the Ved,
    Knowledge and the unknowledgeable,
    Do I call you Abraham, Eve and Seth,
    Noah and the deluge,
    Abraham the friend, and Moses son of Amran,
    And Ahmad the glorious, darling of every heart,
    Do I call you the witness, the Lord, or Hejaz,
    The awakener, existence, or the point,
    Do I call you admiration or prognosis,
    Nymph, fairy, and the young lad,
    The tip and the nip,
    And the redness of betel leaves,
    The Tabla and Tanpura,
    The drum, the notes and the improvisation,
    Do I call you beauty and the fragrant flower,
    Coyness and that amorous glance,
    Do I call you Love and knowledge,
    Superstition, belief, and conjecture,
    The beauty of power, and conception,
    Aptitude and ecstasy,
    Do I call you intoxication and the drunk,
    Amazement and the amazed,
    Submission and the connection,
    Compliance and Gnosticism,
    Do I call you the Hyacinth, the Lilly, and the Cypress,
    And the rebellious Narcissus,
    The bereaved Tulip, the Rose garden, and the orchard,
    Do I call you the dagger, the lance, and the rifle,
    The hail, the bullet, the spear,
    The arrows made of white poplar, and the bow,
    The arrow-notch, and the arrowhead,
    Do I call you colourless, and unparalleled,
    Formless in every instant,
    Glory and holiness,
    Most glorious and most compassionate,
    Repent now Farid forever!
    For whatever I may say is less,
    Do I call you the pure and the humane,
    The Truth without trace or name.
    Shaykh al Akbar Ibn Arabi to Abd el Kader, all had different views.

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    Interesting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Namak_Halaal View Post
    Not sure 100% but from what I have read, ALM are not even words, just letters.

    I believe they're code related to the numerical 19 (Golden ratio).
    Do you have more detail on this golden ratio? I have read about it passingly and would like to no more.

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    Some very interesting posts from akher,dhoni183 and shaykh.

    My own opinion is similar to what Saqib said.

    Also Dhoni183 can you link to some english books of ghamdi? I sometimes dont fully understand him when he speaks urdu.

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    The basic meaning is that you could never fully understand the sayings of your creator......Your thoughts and ideas can never match your creator....

    But that does not mean that you only read Quran and do not try to understand it.....Non-Arabic People should read it with translation.....

    You will definitely get something than nothing...

    Men of understanding know that..... Allah(the creator) and the man(creature) can never be equal....


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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Do you have more detail on this golden ratio? I have read about it passingly and would like to no more.
    Fibonacci. (You may have seen this term used in technical trading).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number


    Here's a practical example of it:

    http://masjidtucson.org/conference/2...alUniverse.pdf


    And of course, the Qur'anic verse

    74:30 Over it are nineteen.

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    I'm difficult to win round on things like this Saqib. Given adequate levels of primary reading and secondary research, Everything in text can be disentangled, to me.

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    This Verse is key to understanding the Qur'an, I think.

    There are Verses relating to Allah SWT, HIS Being, Attributes, Qualities, which cannot be interpreted in a literal sense. Also Verses wherein Time is mentioned; Heaven, Hell and Paradise - the states/conditions of those in the former and latter; the true nature of Angels; passages relating to end-time events; the creation of the cosmos, Adam, Hawa (pbuh), and so on and so forth.

    Such Ayaat do not require endless explanation or tortuous interpretation - as that would necessarily entail massive speculation and conjecture. Had Allah SWT intended them to be understood literally, HE would have revealed them in such a manner.

    Verses narrating the histories of nations; revelation of Laws; experiences of the Prophets (pbut) and so on, form the essence of The Book - from these are derived patterns of behaviour and codes of conduct, for individuals and societies.

    I entirely reject the notion of abrogation relating to Qur'anic Ayaat - though many scholars adhere to this belief. The idea of Verses which have been abrogated, yet are retained, in the Qur'an is contradictory and inconsistent. And we know - from Allah SWT Himself - that there are no contradictions in the Qur'an, and that HE has Perfected Islam, the foundation of which is and shall remain Al-Kitaab.

    Wa Llahu 'Alam

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I'm difficult to win round on things like this Saqib. Given adequate levels of primary reading and secondary research, Everything in text can be disentangled, to me.
    Fair enough.

    I'm just going by centuries of scholastic research from those well versed in Quranic Arabic.

    I see your point though, and zimms. One can decode things with sufficient knowledge. But those that are able to are exceptions to the rule. And it is not for everybody to delve into. That may sound patronizing. But I think it is another example of the practicality of the Quran. That this is a living breathing message and not just something theoretical or theological.

    Some very interesting points of view in this thread.
    Last edited by Saqs; 12th December 2012 at 07:24.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    This Verse is key to understanding the Qur'an, I think.

    There are Verses relating to Allah SWT, HIS Being, Attributes, Qualities, which cannot be interpreted in a literal sense. Also Verses wherein Time is mentioned; Heaven, Hell and Paradise - the states/conditions of those in the former and latter; the true nature of Angels; passages relating to end-time events; the creation of the cosmos, Adam, Hawa (pbuh), and so on and so forth.

    Such Ayaat do not require endless explanation or tortuous interpretation - as that would necessarily entail massive speculation and conjecture. Had Allah SWT intended them to be understood literally, HE would have revealed them in such a manner.

    Verses narrating the histories of nations; revelation of Laws; experiences of the Prophets (pbut) and so on, form the essence of The Book - from these are derived patterns of behaviour and codes of conduct, for individuals and societies.

    I entirely reject the notion of abrogation relating to Qur'anic Ayaat - though many scholars adhere to this belief. The idea of Verses which have been abrogated, yet are retained, in the Qur'an is contradictory and inconsistent. And we know - from Allah SWT Himself - that there are no contradictions in the Qur'an, and that HE has Perfected Islam, the foundation of which is and shall remain Al-Kitaab.

    Wa Llahu 'Alam
    Agree with the rest of your post except the part about abrogation.

    Because it was revealed over 23 years it follows that certain verses supercede others. There's no real contradiction. Just a reconciliation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmz View Post
    Actually other way round I think such scholars use this verse and example of other allegorical verses to scare of ordinary people from attempting to understand the quran.

    P.S. An interesting thread for you to read in your spare time:

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...ad.php?t=28805



    That's too generic an assumption. If no human mind can comprehend at all such verses then there was no point including them. The unspecific verses are said to be understandable (using comparable concepts of human world or with the help of more specific verses) to some degree. However some people strive for magical/hidden meaning and they are not well intentioned according to Allah.

    Interestingly the verse 3:7 doesn't seems to be addressing such (code style) letters, and If I am not wrong these letters are never part of any verse. Perhaps only the mean of 'deep understanding/knowledge' can figure out (as claimed in the verse 3:7). Anyway such words and verses are not the foundation of Quran hence not required to be understood by every individual.
    Fair enough. Understand where you're coming from on that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saqib S View Post
    I'm just going by centuries of scholastic research from those well versed in Quranic Arabic.

    I see your point though, and zimms. One can decode things with sufficient knowledge. But those that are able to are exceptions to the rule. And it is not for everybody to delve into. That may sound patronizing. But I think it is another example of the practicality of the Quran. That this is a living breathing message and not just something theoretical or theological.
    Scholars of Arabic and learned Muslims will be naturally more inclined to deify the text of the Qur'an than Western-educated readers, who have been taught to critically analyse words and treat them as no more and no less. The difference is not patronising on either side - it's merely an issue of faith.

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    Understood. But I think you underestimate the curious nature of the classical Islamic scholars. They practically questioned everything.

    In fact one of the most illustrious of them in Ghazzali actually said something to the effect of you have to reject everything you are taught and relearn it all.

    This is why you will see so many differences of opinions on various matters.

    They had a history of questioning everything. Which was quite healthy.

    This is something modern day scholars tend to forget.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    I would be interested to look into the classical scholars. Most of the modern 'mullahs' I learn about on PP seem pretty nutty and repugnant if I was to be honest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    What is your understanding of phrases like alif laam meem etc? We can read the words but are clueless about the meaning.
    I guess it would vary person to person. I see it as form the word 'Knowledge' as it has Laam and Meem in it and Alif gives that sound in the start - kind of.

    But i guess each will have their own opinion on this. I just think that Allah has asked us to seek knowledge at every possible opportunity, and the Quran is full of knowledge of all kind.

    But then again I can be completely wrong, so its only my positive interpretation of something which is not certain.


    Whenever Nawaz wins, he divides PMLN equally. He keeps PM for himself and gives L N to the people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Some very interesting posts from akher,dhoni183 and shaykh.

    My own opinion is similar to what Saqib said.

    Also Dhoni183 can you link to some english books of ghamdi? I sometimes dont fully understand him when he speaks urdu.
    Thanks first of all.

    Secondly, to disappoint you, I myself haven´t been able to dig out much in English from Javed Ahmad Ghamidi apart from the file posted above......


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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I would be interested to look into the classical scholars. Most of the modern 'mullahs' I learn about on PP seem pretty nutty and repugnant if I was to be honest.
    Ibn Kathir b702 is a classical scholar...a lot of Muslims refer to his interpretations of the Quran...

    Most people tend to adopt a school of thought to deal with matters...for instance this is why you will see people pray in a different manner...and those schools are based on classical scholars...most Pakistani's for instance follow the scholarship of Abu Hanifa b699 for instance...

    For history you have guys like Tabari b838 who have written volumes and volumes on Islamic history...

    But what you need to appreciate is that with new realities comes new scholarship...for instance no classical scholar would be able to discuss the permissability of cloning for instance...

    Islamic scholarship is far from flourishing currently but this doesn't mean that they are all wrong...even those who offend your sensibilities may very well be legitimate Islamic scholars...


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    My 'sensibilities' (if I have any of those...) don't get offended by anything. I just think some of them are idiots. What they come out with can be hollow, uneducated, and (occasionally) quite frightening and violent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I would be interested to look into the classical scholars. Most of the modern 'mullahs' I learn about on PP seem pretty nutty and repugnant if I was to be honest.
    A better idea would be to himself explore the sources of Islam, Quran and Hadith regarding anything.....in this age people can find everything in internet......

    And then if some one is unable to comprehend ,he can consult scholars....One can consult with various people.....In the end an individual has to use its own brain,he can choose or conclude which he thinks is the best interpretation according to the essence and teachings of Islam....

    But going directly to the teacher ,not knowing that what exactly is the issue could be harmful.....It will be just like brainwashing....


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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    My 'sensibilities' (if I have any of those...) don't get offended by anything. I just think some of them are idiots. What they come out with can be hollow, uneducated, and (occasionally) quite frightening and violent.
    Yep,this shows their lack of knowledge....As they say attack is the best defense......
    It is their knowledge-deficiency which makes them angry if they can not answer a question...


    " Don't wait. The time will never be just right "

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    My 'sensibilities' (if I have any of those...) don't get offended by anything. I just think some of them are idiots. What they come out with can be hollow, uneducated, and (occasionally) quite frightening and violent.
    Depends what you deem violent really...Islam is expansionist and the notion of war is part and parcel of it...and you will find those views amongst classical scholars who wrote in detail about rules of war and conflict...although those classical scholars would be referring to state vs state conflict which isn't the specific reality found today...

    That said there are specific limitations set on the conduct and rules of conflict and many 'scholars' today seem to have no interest in those views...and from a personal perspective I find the views of Wahabis in particular to be abhorrent...

    But on the other end you have others who attempt to dilute Islam...

    There tend to be extremities on both sides...


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    Quote Originally Posted by waqar goraya View Post
    A better idea would be to himself explore the sources of Islam, Quran and Hadith regarding anything.....in this age people can find everything in internet......

    And then if some one is unable to comprehend ,he can consult scholars....One can consult with various people.....In the end an individual has to use its own brain,he can choose or conclude which he thinks is the best interpretation according to the essence and teachings of Islam....

    But going directly to the teacher ,not knowing that what exactly is the issue could be harmful.....It will be just like brainwashing....
    One could argue that one of the problems is individuals doing DIY hukms...simply reading a hadith or ayat doesn't help you understand the context or its applicability...this is why there is scholarship...


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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I would be interested to look into the classical scholars. Most of the modern 'mullahs' I learn about on PP seem pretty nutty and repugnant if I was to be honest.
    We could all do with a revisit of their findings. A lot of the muslims thesedays myself included might be quite shocked as to some of their opinions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saqib S View Post
    Agree with the rest of your post except the part about abrogation.

    Because it was revealed over 23 years it follows that certain verses supercede others. There's no real contradiction. Just a reconciliation.

    Thankyou for reading my post.

    There is no question - because there is absolutely no mention - of some Verses superseding others, ie., some Ayaat being employed in the place of others.

    Secondly, supersession is not the same as abrogation - which means to repeal or abolish.

    Thirdly, which Verses have been abrogated? Scholars are not unanimous in their opinions, and quite frankly, the entire process of deciding which Verses have been abrogated and which have not, is highly speculative and subjective.

    I believe Q3:7 constitutes a categorical rejection of the theory of abrogation.

    Wa Llahu 'Alam

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    @James : read Sufis (Rumi, Ibn Arabi ...) the 'traditional' mullahs have resumed Islam's spirituality to how weep your behind correctly as per the sclerotic sunnah, no wonder it only attracts middle-aged White women with parental-authority problems.

    It can be the ugliest theological construction or the most transcending living faith depending on your approach, and contrarily to a lot I don't think that the Sufis are interesting Muslims because they're actually not orthodox Muslims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    Thankyou for reading my post.

    There is no question - because there is absolutely no mention - of some Verses superseding others, ie., some Ayaat being employed in the place of others.

    Secondly, supersession is not the same as abrogation - which means to repeal or abolish.

    Thirdly, which Verses have been abrogated? Scholars are not unanimous in their opinions, and quite frankly, the entire process of deciding which Verses have been abrogated and which have not, is highly speculative and subjective.

    I believe Q3:7 constitutes a categorical rejection of the theory of abrogation.

    Wa Llahu 'Alam
    Purely out of interest and not to be a smartass or anything but have you got a background in Islamic scholarship?


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    I would be interested to look into the classical scholars. Most of the modern 'mullahs' I learn about on PP seem pretty nutty and repugnant if I was to be honest.
    Currently I like listening to Sheikh Hamza Yusuf from America, most if not all of his lectures are in English......

    Regarding Classical scholars, Imam Ghazali may be a good person.


    PRAY YOUR NAMAAZ BEFORE NAMAAZ (JANAZA) IS PRAYED OVER YOU

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saqib S View Post
    Purely out of interest and not to be a smartass or anything but have you got a background in Islamic scholarship?

    I note with interest that you have not addressed the points raised in my post..perhaps you would like to consult your preferred scholar before responding?

    Explain the meaning of Islamic scholarship - because it seems a rather vague term to me.

    For the record - mentioned in other threads (so forgive me the repetition) - I am a student of Qur'anic Arabic and of comparative religion.

    My views are based upon my own independent studies and research - I do not follow the crowd or accept majority opinon. In other words, Allah SWT blessed me with a brain and reason, and I seek to employ both to the best of my ability. Al-Qur'an belongs to HIM and not to anyone else. Thus, I strive to comprehend it as HE Alone wants me to.

    As always, Allah SWT Knows Best

    As Salaamu 'Alaykum

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    Quote Originally Posted by attock View Post
    Currently I like listening to Sheikh Hamza Yusuf from America, most if not all of his lectures are in English......

    Regarding Classical scholars, Imam Ghazali may be a good person.
    Was going to say the same thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    I note with interest that you have not addressed the points raised in my post..perhaps you would like to consult your preferred scholar before responding?

    Explain the meaning of Islamic scholarship - because it seems a rather vague term to me.

    For the record - mentioned in other threads (so forgive me the repetition) - I am a student of Qur'anic Arabic and of comparative religion.

    My views are based upon my own independent studies and research - I do not follow the crowd or accept majority opinon. In other words, Allah SWT blessed me with a brain and reason, and I seek to employ both to the best of my ability. Al-Qur'an belongs to HIM and not to anyone else. Thus, I strive to comprehend it as HE Alone wants me to.

    As always, Allah SWT Knows Best

    As Salaamu 'Alaykum
    I don't have anything to raise about your post so I didn't just for the sake of doing so. I was interested to know what your background was. Simple.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    This Verse is key to understanding the Qur'an, I think.

    There are Verses relating to Allah SWT, HIS Being, Attributes, Qualities, which cannot be interpreted in a literal sense. Also Verses wherein Time is mentioned; Heaven, Hell and Paradise - the states/conditions of those in the former and latter; the true nature of Angels; passages relating to end-time events; the creation of the cosmos, Adam, Hawa (pbuh), and so on and so forth.

    Such Ayaat do not require endless explanation or tortuous interpretation - as that would necessarily entail massive speculation and conjecture. Had Allah SWT intended them to be understood literally, HE would have revealed them in such a manner.

    Verses narrating the histories of nations; revelation of Laws; experiences of the Prophets (pbut) and so on, form the essence of The Book - from these are derived patterns of behaviour and codes of conduct, for individuals and societies.

    I entirely reject the notion of abrogation relating to Qur'anic Ayaat - though many scholars adhere to this belief. The idea of Verses which have been abrogated, yet are retained, in the Qur'an is contradictory and inconsistent. And we know - from Allah SWT Himself - that there are no contradictions in the Qur'an, and that HE has Perfected Islam, the foundation of which is and shall remain Al-Kitaab.

    Wa Llahu 'Alam
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    Thankyou for reading my post.

    There is no question - because there is absolutely no mention - of some Verses superseding others, ie., some Ayaat being employed in the place of others.

    Secondly, supersession is not the same as abrogation - which means to repeal or abolish.

    Thirdly, which Verses have been abrogated? Scholars are not unanimous in their opinions, and quite frankly, the entire process of deciding which Verses have been abrogated and which have not, is highly speculative and subjective.

    I believe Q3:7 constitutes a categorical rejection of the theory of abrogation.

    Wa Llahu 'Alam
    My 'personal' opinion only but neither do I believe that verses of the Qur´an were abrogated. Again, my view only.


    Visit the 'Time Pass' forum to discuss anything not related to sports!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saqib S View Post
    I don't have anything to raise about your post so I didn't just for the sake of doing so. I was interested to know what your background was. Simple.

    I understand your interest, Saqib. Apologies if I sounded ungracious.

    If I just elaborate upon my original post, perhaps this will clarify its meaning, In Sha'a Allah Ta'aala.

    Surah 3 Al-'Imraan, Verse 7, includes the following passage:

    ..we believe in it, all - (Kullun) - of it is from our Sustainer...

    Kull means:
    totality
    entirety
    each one
    everyone


    Thus, the prayer of the believers is clear: they believe in, accept - and necessarily, therefore - follow the whole of the Qur'an. We cannot have - on the one hand - complete acceptance of the Verses of the Qur'an - and on the other - partial acceptance of some, and negation of others based upon the theory of abrogation. The 2 ideas contradict and conflict with each other.

    Surah 18, Al-Kahf, Verse 27
    And convey (to the world) whatever has been revealed to you of your Sustainer's Writ. There is nothing that could alter HIS Words; and you can find no refuge other than with HIM.


    Since nothing can alter the Words of Allah SWT - as is clearly stated above - it follows, logically, that they cannot be abrogated.

    Abu Muslim Al-Isfahani - from amongst the classical scholars - and Muhammad Asad - of more recent times - reject the theory of abrogation. Perhaps a study of their works is required in order to obtain a greater insight into this matter.

    And Allah SWT Alone Knows Best.

    As Salaamu 'Alaykum
    Last edited by Jadz; 13th December 2012 at 16:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DHONI183 View Post
    My 'personal' opinion only but neither do I believe that verses of the Qur´an were abrogated. Again, my view only.

    Perhaps people accept the theory of abrogation without question and adequate thought - but it really does need to be studied and researched.

    Allah SWT mentions abrogation of Ayaat - Q2:106; 13:39; 16:101 - in reference to the Earlier Revelations. Their Laws are applicable to the followers of the Torah and Gospels - ie., the Jews and Christians. But they have been abrogated for the followers of the Qur'an. Wa Llahu 'Alam.

    Whatever our own personal understanding of this - and other matters - we all believe in the fundamentals. And, ultimately, that's what counts.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Some very interesting posts from akher,dhoni183 and shaykh.

    My own opinion is similar to what Saqib said.

    Also Dhoni183 can you link to some english books of ghamdi? I sometimes dont fully understand him when he speaks urdu.
    His books translated into English can be found on the following website. http://javedahmadghamidi.com/. Also his and his teacher, Amin Ahsan Islahi's translation of the Quran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    I understand your interest, Saqib. Apologies if I sounded ungracious.

    If I just elaborate upon my original post, perhaps this will clarify its meaning, In Sha'a Allah Ta'aala.

    Surah 3 Al-'Imraan, Verse 7, includes the following passage:

    ..we believe in it, all - (Kullun) - of it is from our Sustainer...

    Kull means:
    totality
    entirety
    each one
    everyone


    Thus, the prayer of the believers is clear: they believe in, accept - and necessarily, therefore - follow the whole of the Qur'an. We cannot have - on the one hand - complete acceptance of the Verses of the Qur'an - and on the other - partial acceptance of some, and negation of others based upon the theory of abrogation. The 2 ideas contradict and conflict with each other.

    Surah 18, Al-Kahf, Verse 27
    And convey (to the world) whatever has been revealed to you of your Sustainer's Writ. There is nothing that could alter HIS Words; and you can find no refuge other than with HIM.


    Since nothing can alter the Words of Allah SWT - as is clearly stated above - it follows, logically, that they cannot be abrogated.

    Abu Muslim Al-Isfahani - from amongst the classical scholars - and Muhammad Asad - of more recent times - reject the theory of abrogation. Perhaps a study of their works is required in order to obtain a greater insight into this matter.

    And Allah SWT Alone Knows Best.

    As Salaamu 'Alaykum
    Yes but are you not then discounting the evolutionary nature of the revelation? It was revealed over 23 years. And gradually. So essentially earlier commandments would then be elaborated later on. Was just another example of the practicality of the Quran.

    Pretty sure those who wrote tafsir also have to study the chronological and sociopolitical situation at the time a verse was revealed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs
    Mere immoral mortals,
    Mimicking a moral immortal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saqib S View Post
    Yes but are you not then discounting the evolutionary nature of the revelation? It was revealed over 23 years. And gradually. So essentially earlier commandments would then be elaborated later on. Was just another example of the practicality of the Quran.

    Pretty sure those who wrote tafsir also have to study the chronological and sociopolitical situation at the time a verse was revealed.

    Indeed, concepts revealed in the earlier, shorter Chapters were expanded and elaborated upon. In view of the fact that the Prophet (pbuh) emigrated to Medina from Mecca, and therein established the system of governance, whereby Islam was practiced, preached and Laws implemented, Verses descended which guided, inspired and helped him.

    However, this is quite distinct from the concept of abrogation. Elaborating upon an idea or Law is not the same as negating or abolishing it. Also, there exists no uniform standard or measure by which to determine the Verses that have allegedly superseded or abrogated others. As mentioned earlier, the process is highly speculative and subjective.

    Surah 41 Al-Fussilat, Verses 41-42

    Verily, those who disbelieve in the Reminder (the Qur'an) when it comes to them (shall receive the punishment). And verily, it is an Honourable, Well-Fortified Book.
    Falsehood - Al-Baatil - cannot come to it from before or behind it, (it is) sent down by The All-Wise, Worthy of all praise.


    Baatil means:
    vain
    futile
    false
    untrue
    absurd
    groundless
    baseless
    worthless
    invalid
    null
    void

    deception
    lie


    Since nothing can invalidate or render null and void the Qur'an, the theory of abrogation has to be called into question - and, in my opinion, rejected as an impossibility.

    Surah 5 Al-Maa'idah, Verse 3

    ...This day I have perfected your Religion for you, completed MY Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your Religion...

    Islam cannot have been perfected, nor Allah SWT's Favour completed in its entirety, if the Qur'an still required some form of alteration or amendment.

    Regarding Tafseer: every tafseer by scholars - no matter how exalted their position, how great and indepth their learning - is simply an explanation or interpretation. All such expositions are bound, by their very nature, to be subjective. It is imperative to read widely and deeply, and not just adhere to one scholarly commentary, in order to attain a far greater insight into the meanings of Ayaatu-Llah and their ultimate purpose.

    Your position - with respect - is not your own. It is derived from the works of others. It is better for you, as a Muslim, to study the subject for yourself, rather than rely and depend upon the research of scholars. I make this suggestion - with great respect - to all Muslims. Intellectual enquiry has all but stopped, and therefore societies have stagnated, because Muslims have abandoned independance of thought to rely/depend - almost exclusively - upon scholars (particularly of the past).

    Wa Llahu 'Alam
    Last edited by Jadz; 15th December 2012 at 14:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    Indeed, concepts revealed in the earlier, shorter Chapters were expanded and elaborated upon. In view of the fact that the Prophet (pbuh) emigrated to Medina from Mecca, and therein established the system of governance, whereby Islam was practiced, preached and Laws implemented, Verses descended which guided, inspired and helped him.

    However, this is quite distinct from the concept of abrogation. Elaborating upon an idea or Law is not the same as negating or abolishing it. Also, there exists no uniform standard or measure by which to determine the Verses that have allegedly superseded or abrogated others. As mentioned earlier, the process is highly speculative and subjective.

    Surah 41 Al-Fussilat, Verses 41-42

    Verily, those who disbelieve in the Reminder (the Qur'an) when it comes to them (shall receive the punishment). And verily, it is an Honourable, Well-Fortified Book.
    Falsehood - Al-Baatil - cannot come to it from before or behind it, (it is) sent down by The All-Wise, Worthy of all praise.


    Baatil means:
    vain
    futile
    false
    untrue
    absurd
    groundless
    baseless
    worthless
    invalid
    null
    void

    deception
    lie


    Since nothing can invalidate or render null and void the Qur'an, the theory of abrogation has to be called into question - and, in my opinion, rejected as an impossibility.

    Surah 5 Al-Maa'idah, Verse 3

    ...This day I have perfected your Religion for you, completed MY Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your Religion...

    Islam cannot have been perfected, nor Allah SWT's Favour completed in its entirety, if the Qur'an still required some form of alteration or amendment.

    Regarding Tafseer: every tafseer by scholars - no matter how exalted their position, how great and indepth their learning - is simply an explanation or interpretation. All such expositions are bound, by their very nature, to be subjective. It is imperative to read widely and deeply, and not just adhere to one scholarly commentary, in order to attain a far greater insight into the meanings of Ayaatu-Llah and their ultimate purpose.

    Your position - with respect - is not your own. It is derived from the works of others. It is better for you, as a Muslim, to study the subject for yourself, rather than rely and depend upon the research of scholars. I make this suggestion - with great respect - to all Muslims. Intellectual enquiry has all but stopped, and therefore societies have stagnated, because Muslims have abandoned independance of thought to rely/depend - almost exclusively - upon scholars (particularly of the past).

    Wa Llahu 'Alam
    A wonderful post as always. Highly impressed.


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