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  1. #1
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    Richards The Perfectionist - A Genius of His Generation - Imran Khan

    Thought of sharing this piece written by Imran Khan in 1993 about the legendary genius Viv Richards, for those who haven't read it yet.


    Link: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/60019.html



    Richards The Perfectionist - A Genius of His Generation - Imran Khan (Pakistani Cricketer, Oct 1993)

    I was privileged to bowl to some of the greatest batsmen during my 21-year international career. Each had some outstanding qualities that made them so successful. Sunil Gavaskar had the most compact defense and managed his innings better than any other batsman of his time. Javed Miandad and Allan Border were great accumulators and like Gavaskar, understood the art of making runs. Gordon Greenidge had an orthodox defense, yet when it came to attack was devastating. Ian Chappell was best in a crisis, possessing mental strength, while his brother Greg was a powerful driver off the back foot. Barry Richards was the most orthodox batsman of my time, who never seemed out of balance and played his strokes with the minimum of effort. Zaheer Abbas was the best timer of the ball.

    Compared to Vivian Richards, however, all those were mere mortals. He was the only true genius of my time. He never had the defense of Gavaskar or the balance and poise of Barry Richards, but the Almighty had gifted him with reflexes that no other had. These lightning reflexes enabled him to get into position so quickly that bowlers never quite knew what length to bowl to him. His other strength was that he combined timing with brute force. Zaheer Abbas, Barry Richards or Majid Khan were great timers of the ball but on slow wickets, where the ball did not come to the bat, they were neutralized. Viv Richards could be devastating on all types of surfaces. Because of these unique qualities of extraordinary reflexes and the combination of power with timing, Viv Richards could get away with a faulty batting technique. He would commit himself on the front foot much too early yet he was gifted enough to move on to the back foot and still play a stroke with time to spare.

    In 1976, I had an opportunity to bowl to the two great players of the time, Viv Richards and Greg Chappell. Both were predominantly front-foot players but the difference was that while I could surprise Greg Chappell with a bouncer, it was completely wasted on Richards. No matter how much I disguised the bouncer he still had time to lean back and hit it over midwicket. He would come so far on the front foot that it was virtually impossible to get him lbw with my wicket-taking delivery, the inswinger. I could only command respect from him when a few years later I perfected the leg-cutter. Richards was the only batsman who took on fast bowlers and destroyed them. Sheer pace was cannon fodder for him. Because of his tremendous reflexes he was the best hooker of my time. Consequently, pace bowlers had a very small margin of error.

    In World Series Cricket from 1977 to 1979 all the top batsmen, with perhaps the exception of Gavaskar and Geoff Boycott, were on show. Never were so many fast bowlers gathered in one country at the same time. Many batsmen were injured and helmets began to be worn for the first time. The only batsman to take on the fast bowlers was Viv. All the others just tried to survive.

    I admired him because he loved challenges. The bigger the occasion, the more he loved it. The more demanding the occasion, the harder he tried. And often, when there were no challenges, he would entertain the crowd and get out rather than play to improve his average. This is why, for me, statistics are meaningless. They can never reflect the true genius of Viv Richards. Had he wanted, he could easily have scored twice as many Test runs as he did. There were times when his 60s and 70s were far more useful to his team than big 100s scored by others. In the 1980 match against England at Old Trafford, he scored a 60 so violent that it shattered the confidence of England's main strike bowler, Bob Willis. Richards's strategy was simple: he would come in at No. 3 and launch an all-out offensive against the opposition's main strike bowlers. It was not uncommon to see a one-day field setting shortly after the fall of the first wicket on the first morning of the Test. He never used to rely on his defense. Instead, he would put the bowlers on the defensive. Once he had achieved that, he would relax and pick off runs. His onslaught was of enormous benefit to his team. It would demoralize the opposition's strike bowlers and take the pressure off his team. His innings never followed the pattern like, for instance, those of Gavaskar and Boycott. The last two would get themselves in, pick off the bad balls and defend themselves against the good ones. They would also know the bowlers they wanted to score off and the ones they had to keep out. If there is a pattern with Richards it was the complete opposite to that of Gavaskar and Boycott. He would take on the strike bowlers and try to hit everything, including the good-length deliveries, then suddenly decide to become defensive and start harmless half-volleys. Then, as if he had enough rest, he would resume the offensive.

    I felt that he was never as effective at No. 5 as he was at No. 3. When he took over the captaincy, No. 5 was even more of a pressure position for him and since he did not have a strong defense he would at times fall between two stools. As an all-round fielder, I felt he was again the best of my time. He could catch and throw as well as anyone. Often with his quick reflexes he would run out batsmen from midwicket when they had backed up too far. His strategy as a captain was straightforward: to lead from the front. But as with Gary Sobers, the problem was that a genius always struggles to deal with mere mortals. They also make less use of their brain, and function more on instinct. He could get impatient with his teammates who could not live up to his high standards. His explosive temper would put them under pressure when things were not going well. As long as he was a genius, the players accepted it, but after 1988, as often happens in life when the power of a strong individual begins to wane the discontent began to surface. His personality was a bit more complex. To understand it fully one must read C.L.R. James's book Beyond A Boundary. He epitomizes the West Indian who, through sport, wanted to dispel the sense of inferiority suffered by blacks in the Caribbean through years of colonialism. Therefore, the No. 1 rivals for him were England and he took great pride in establishing supremacy over there. The second most important were Australia, mainly because of the humiliation suffered by the West Indies from Jeff Thomson and Dennis Lillee in the 1975-76 series. Not that he spared other nations.

    He was the most competitive cricketer I played against. I found him shy, and to cover it he would appear arrogant at times. I also found him to be tense at the beginning of his innings. To cover it up he would exaggerate his swagger and put on a snarl. When he became captain he had the pressure to preserve Clive Lloyd's record of West Indian invincibility and to protect his own legendary status. Because of this, he became more prone to outbursts, never more visible than on England's last Caribbean tour.

    I know it is the most difficult decision for any sportsman to know when to leave and it is always sad to see geniuses reduced to the level of mere mortals. Romantically, I would have like to have seen Viv Richards leave cricket in 1988. Since then, although he played some great innings, the reflexes were not as sharp and playing fast bowlers off the back foot, he became much more vulnerable. Sportsmen often hang in there because they feel they do not have a better alternative, even though they are way past their prime. Although he has said that he would consider offers to play for a new county after Glamorgan, my suggestion to Viv is not to fall into the trap and do something like go into politics in Antigua. For me, he remains the greatest batsman of my generation. The one stroke I will always remember was in a one-day match in Australia in 1981 when he advanced down the wicket at Thomson, at his fastest and armed with a new ball. He smashed a short ball from him to the mid-on fence.

    Last edited by Hitman; 28th July 2013 at 16:18.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  2. #2
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    In his 1992 biog, IK said that he had nightmares where he and Sir Viv were Wild West gunslingers and Sir Viv kept out-drawing him.

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    Here's the 'little master' Sachin confessing that Viv is his hero -

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiati...n-viv-richards


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    In his 1992 biog, IK said that he had nightmares where he and Sir Viv were Wild West gunslingers and Sir Viv kept out-drawing him.
    I'll always be disappointed over the fact that Viv played before my time, I missed watching him. BTW, did you read this piece before?
    Last edited by Hitman; 28th July 2013 at 16:27.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  5. #5
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    Viv was a rich man's Sehwag. He was as brutal as Sehwag and had superior skills and technique. What Sehwag could do in Asia, Viv could do anywhere, even on hostile tracks.


    "This one doesn't take the cake, it takes the bakery" - Gavaskar

  6. #6
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    I'm just curious, what was Viv Richards's SR in tests? And how does it compare to Sehwag's SR in tests?

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    That's why i miss Imran in commentary box...


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrolln View Post
    I'm just curious, what was Viv Richards's SR in tests? And how does it compare to Sehwag's SR in tests?
    Not confirmed but most of the sources say it was around 70


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebGuru View Post
    Not confirmed but most of the sources say it was around 70
    True. Back in those days when most good ODI players like Miandad, Gavaskar, Haynes, Greenidge, Chappell had an SR in the 60's in ODI cricket, Viv had an SR of 70 in Test cricket. Simple mind blowing.
    Last edited by Hitman; 28th July 2013 at 16:52.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Re: How many of you have read this piece by the great Imran Khan on 'King' Viv Richar

    Have you guys seen this documentary

    VIV RICHARDS - KING OF CRICKET

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmP4S-cmR9k
    Last edited by Warrior868; 28th July 2013 at 16:51.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior868 View Post
    Have you guys seen this documentary

    VIV RICHARDS - KING OF CRICKET

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmP4S-cmR9k
    Yea, man. Have seen it. Fantastic documentary.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianWillow View Post
    Viv was a rich man's Sehwag. He was as brutal as Sehwag and had superior skills and technique. What Sehwag could do in Asia, Viv could do anywhere, even on hostile tracks.
    Only an Indian would place IVA Richards and Sehwag in same sentence.

    PS: KP >>> Daylight >>> Moonlight >>> Daylight >>> Sehwag

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilFlip View Post
    Only an Indian would place IVA Richards and Sehwag in same sentence.

    PS: KP >>> Daylight >>> Moonlight >>> Daylight >>> Sehwag
    Come on, man. He never compared the both. He already placed Viv miles ahead of Sehwag. No one can match Viv's destructive ability, no one.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilFlip View Post
    Only an Indian would place IVA Richards and Sehwag in same sentence.

    PS: KP >>> Daylight >>> Moonlight >>> Daylight >>> Sehwag
    Sehwag is in a league of his own, averaging 50 at a S/R of 82 in tests. Sehwag has the fastest triple and double centuries in his name. Three of the fastest double hundreds ever made in history belong to Sehwag, and those were against good teams. Sehwag is the king of Asia.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...g;view=innings


    "This one doesn't take the cake, it takes the bakery" - Gavaskar

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Come on, man. He never compared the both. He already placed Viv miles ahead of Sehwag. No one can match Viv's destructive ability, no one.

    Well said.

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    Here's what Viv Richards's official website says -

    "Viv Richards is a former West Indian cricketer. Widely known and loved as Viv or King Viv, he is up there with Sir Donald Bradman and Sachin Tendulkar as one of the greatest cricketers of all time. "


    http://www.kingviv.com/


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

  17. #17
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    The one stroke I will always remember was in a one-day match in Australia in 1981 when he advanced down the wicket at Thomson, at his fastest and armed with a new ball. He smashed a short ball from him to the mid-on fence
    Can someone pull a Robelinda here and post video link of shot please

  18. #18
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    The one stroke I will always remember was in a one-day match in Australia in 1981 when he advanced down the wicket at Thomson, at his fastest and armed with a new ball. He smashed a short ball from him to the mid-on fence
    Can someone pull a Robelinda here and post video link of shot please

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilFlip View Post
    Well said.
    Absolutely no one, neither Gilchrist nor Sehwag. Viv murdered attacks far better than what Gilchrist and Sehwag did. And that too in an era where pitches were not that batting friendly, and in an era where the bowling attacks were at their best.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    I was planning to share some stats about ViV will share it soon batsmen of this century can only dream what the guy achieved more thn 2 decades ago...


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Absolutely no one, neither Gilchrist nor Sehwag. Viv murdered attacks far better than what Gilchrist and Sehwag did. And that too in an era where pitches were not that batting friendly, and in an era where the bowling attacks were at their best.
    And without helmets.

    Sehwag, though no match for Viv, is unique to our era because he completely remodeled the role of an opener in test cricket. Openers scoring at a S/R of over 65 in every match, over a long career, were unheard of, before Sehwag.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting


    "This one doesn't take the cake, it takes the bakery" - Gavaskar

  22. #22
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    As somebody rightly said,dont mention King Viv and Sehwag in the same line.Not even Sachin is close to him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    I'll always be disappointed over the fact that Viv played before my time, I missed watching him. BTW, did you read this piece before?
    Didn't read the piece and found it interesting.

    I saw a wonderful duel between Botham at Richards at Lord's in 1984. Botham was very revved up and bowling properly fast. He took 8-100 and Sir Viv got 70something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexjohn_tcr View Post
    As somebody rightly said,dont mention King Viv and Sehwag in the same line.Not even Sachin is close to him.
    On the topic of strike rates and destruction of the bowlers, Sehwag is one of those rare current generation players comparable to Richards. Richards, of course destroyed better attacks, that is another topic.

    You would not be able to name most other players along with Viv because their batting style would be different. Lara could be compared, but Lara was not as good as Viv against sheer pace. Sachin is not a destroyer of attacks like Sehwag, so of course Sachin could not be mentioned in this context.


    "This one doesn't take the cake, it takes the bakery" - Gavaskar

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndianWillow View Post
    On the topic of strike rates and destruction of the bowlers, Sehwag is one of those rare current generation players comparable to Richards. Richards, of course destroyed better attacks, that is another topic.

    You would not be able to name most other players along with Viv because their batting style would be different. Lara could be compared, but Lara was not as good as Viv against sheer pace. Sachin is not a destroyer of attacks like Sehwag, so of course Sachin could not be mentioned in this context.
    Ponting from 2002 to 2007 was also very destructive. you are right about Sehwag, he is a very underrated match winner proly because of his poor technique.

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    A major factor is that he took on the bowling like he did and averaged 50 WITHOUT A HELMET against guys bowling 90mph plus. In my view there is no one is history who batted like he did, against the quality of bowling he faced without a helmet.

    Pre helmet days didnt have the quality of bowlers that he faced in the 70s and 80s.

    For me batting with a helmet is like sparring with headgear and without a helmet is like no headgear- 2 different scenarios- I recall pat pocock saying words to the effect that facing the windies with the helmet was easier as before when he faced them without a helmet he feared for his life.

    Can you really see guys playing "dil scoops", advancing down the wicket with no helmet?

    Viv at the top and then you have the rest imo


    Re:above, for info. purposes only and Allah knows best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    I'll always be disappointed over the fact that Viv played before my time, I missed watching him. BTW, did you read this piece before?
    You missed out. He remains the only batsman I have ever seen that could intimidate the fielding team by walking ou to bat. Dude was like the Terminator.

    Nobody else is on that level.

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    Re: Richards The Perfectionist - A Genius of His Generation - Imran Khan

    So a thread about Imran words about Viv and two Indians have already mentioned Sachin and Sehwag in the first 5 replies. Wow.


    Quote Originally Posted by La Haine movie
    Jusqu'ici tout va bien. L'important n’est pas la chute, c’est l’atterrissage.

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    Re: Richards The Perfectionist - A Genius of His Generation - Imran Khan

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Aussie View Post
    You missed out. He remains the only batsman I have ever seen that could intimidate the fielding team by walking ou to bat. Dude was like the Terminator.

    Nobody else is on that level.
    Does it come close to the feeling of hopelessness and dread teams got when they saw Gilly walk out at number 6-7?


    Quote Originally Posted by La Haine movie
    Jusqu'ici tout va bien. L'important n’est pas la chute, c’est l’atterrissage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs View Post
    Does it come close to the feeling of hopelessness and dread teams got when they saw Gilly walk out at number 6-7?
    Dont know, never had that feeling

    But Viv used to scare teams

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    Quote Originally Posted by amax View Post
    Ponting from 2002 to 2007 was also very destructive. you are right about Sehwag, he is a very underrated match winner proly because of his poor technique.
    Ponting was a better batsman, but not as destructive as Sehwag.

    In Asia, Bowlers of all kinds were genuinely afraid to bowl to Sehwag at his peak because if he got a start, he always scored at run a ball or higher. He scored 293 off 254 balls in a single day against SL, enabling India to post 443/1 in only 79 overs.

    Richards himself has admitted that Sehwag is the most destructive modern batsman - http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/news/...keter-richards


    "This one doesn't take the cake, it takes the bakery" - Gavaskar

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    Re: Richards The Perfectionist - A Genius of His Generation - Imran Khan

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Aussie View Post
    Dont know, never had that feeling

    But Viv used to scare teams
    Lol yeah fair is fair. A different ball game to seeing Kamran stroll out at 6-7.


    Quote Originally Posted by La Haine movie
    Jusqu'ici tout va bien. L'important n’est pas la chute, c’est l’atterrissage.

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    Vivian Richard's strike rates against various teams.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    vs Eng 72.1
    vs NZ 71.53
    vs Ind 71.07*
    vs Pak 66.53*
    vs Aus 66.04*

    in NZ 89.53
    in Ind 76.21*
    in Eng 71.64
    in Aus 69.75
    in WI 67.24*
    in Pak 61.88*

    away 70.24*
    home 67.24*

    He was indeed a beast in all conditions against all bowlers. If you factor in the 15% faster rates at which batsmen score these days due to the influx of ODIs, T20s and weaker bowling standards, Richards S/R would be equivalent to 80-85 for today.


    "This one doesn't take the cake, it takes the bakery" - Gavaskar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Aussie View Post
    You missed out. He remains the only batsman I have ever seen that could intimidate the fielding team by walking ou to bat. Dude was like the Terminator.

    Nobody else is on that level.
    A God gifted 'GENIUS'.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs View Post
    So a thread about Imran words about Viv and two Indians have already mentioned Sachin and Sehwag in the first 5 replies. Wow.
    Did anyone of us put Viv down to glorify our players? In fact it's an Indian who opened this thread, ME!!!.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    I have rarely seen a batter who was so outright insulting to the bowlers.

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    Richards The Perfectionist

    What Imran Khan has to say about Viv Richards?

    I was privileged to bowl to some of the greatest batsmen during my 21-year international career. Each had some outstanding qual- ities that made them so successful. Sunil Gavaskar had the most compact defence and managed his in- nings better than any other batsman of his time. Javed Miandad and Allan Border were great accumulaters and, like Gavaskar un- derstood the art of making runs. Gordon Greenidge had an orthodox defence, yet when it came to attack was devastating. Ian Chappell was best in a crisis, pos- sessing mental strength, while his brother Greg was a powerful driver off the back foot. Barry Richards was the most orthodox batsman of my time, who never seemed out of balance and played his strokes with the minimum of effort. Zaheer Abbas was the best timer of the ball.

    Compared to Vivian Richards, however, all those were mere mor- tals. He was the only true genius of my time. He never had the defence of Gavaskar or the balance and poise of Barry Richards but the Almighty had gifted him with reflexes that no other had. These lightning reflexes enabled him to get into position so quickly that bowlers never quite knew what length to bowl to him. His other strength was that he combined timing with brute force. Zaheer Abbas, Barry Richards or Majid Khan were great timers of the ball but on slow wickets, where the ball did not come to the bat, they were neutralized. Viv Richards could be devastating on all types of surfaces. Because of these unique qualities of extraordinary reflexes and the combination of power with timing, Viv Richards could get away with a faulty batting technique. He would commit himself on the front foot much too early yet he was gifted enough to move on to the back foot and still play a stroke with time to spare. In 1976, I had an opportunity to bowl to the two great players of the time, Viv Richards and Greg Chappell. Both were predom- inantly front-foot players but the difference was that while I could surprise Greg Chappell with a bouncer, it was completely wasted on Richards. No matter how much I disguised the bouncer he still had time to lean back and hit it over midwicket. He would come so far on the front foot that it was virtually impossible to get him lbw with my wicket-taking delivery, the inswinger. I could only command respect from him when a few years later I perfected the leg- cutter. Richards was the only batsman who took on fast bowlers and des- troyed them. Sheer pace was cannon fodder for him. Because of his tremendous reflexes he was the best hooker of my time. Con- sequently, pace bowlers had a very small margin of error.

    In World Series Cricket from 1977 to 1979 all the top batsmen, with perhaps the exception of Gavaskar and Geoff Boycott, were on show. Never were so many fast bowlers gathered in one country at the same time. Many batsmen were injured and helmets began to be worn for the first time. The only batsman to take on the fast bowlers was Viv. All the others just tried to survive. I admired him because he loved challenges. The bigger the oc- casion, the more he loved it. The more demanding the occasion, the harder he tried. And often, when there were no challenges, he would entertain the crowd and get out rather than play to im- prove his average. This is why, for me, statistics are meaningless. They can nev- er reflect the true genius of Viv Richards. Had he wanted, he could easily have scored twice as many Test runs as he did. There were times when his 60s and 70s were far more useful to his team than big 100s scored by others. In the 1980 match against England at Old Trafford, he scored a 60 so violent that it shattered the confidence of England's main strike bowler, Bob Willis. Richards' strategy was simple: he would come in at No. 3 and launch an all-out offensive against the opposition's main strike bowlers. It was not uncommon to see a one-day field setting shortly after the fall of the first wicket on the first morning of the Test. He never used to rely on his defence. Instead, he would put the bowlers on the defensive. Once he had achieved that, he would relax and pick off runs. His onslaught was of enormous benefit to his team. It would demoralise the opposition's strike bowlers and take the pressure off his team. His innings never followed the pattern like, for instance, those of Gavaskar and Boycott. The last two would get themselves in, pick off the bad balls adn defend themselves against the good ones. They would also know the bowlers they wanted to score off and the ones they had to keep out. If there is a pattern with Richards it ws the complete opposite to that of Gavaskar and Boycott. He would take on the strike bowlers and try to hit everything, including the good-length deliveries, then suddenly decide to become defensive and start harmless half-volleys. Then, as if he had enough rest, he would resume the offensive. I felt that he was never as effective at No. 5 as he was at No. 3. When he took over the captaincy, No. 5 was even more of a pressure position for him and since he did not have a strong de- fence he would at times fall between two stools. As an all-round fielder, I felt he was again the best of my time. He could catch and throw as well as anyone. Often with his quick reflexes he would run out batsmen from midwicket when they had backed up too far. His strategy as a captain was straightforward: to lead from the front. But as with Gary Sobers, the problem was that a genius always struggles to deal with mere mortals. They also make less use of their brain, and function more on instinct. He could get impatient with his team-mates who could not live up to his high standards. His explosive temper would put them under pressure when things were not going well. As long as he was a genius, the players accepted it, but after 1988, as often happens in life when the power of a strong individual begins to wane the discontent began to surface. His personality was a bit more complex.

    To understand it fully one must read C.L.R. James's book Beyond A Boundary. He epitom- ises the West Indian who, through sport, wanted to dispel the sense of inferiority suffered by blacks in the Caribbean through years of colonialism. Therefore, the No. 1 rivals for him were England and he took great pride in establishing supremacy over there. The second most important were Australia, mainly because of the humiliation suffered by the West Indies from Jeff Thomson and Dennis Lillee in the 1975-76 series. Not that he spared other nations. He was the most competitive cricketer I played against. I found him shy, and to cover it he would appear arrogant at times. I also found him to be tense at the beginning of his innings. To cover it up he would exaggerate his swagger and put on a snarl. When he became captain he had the pressure to preserve Clive Lloyd's record of West Indian invincibility and to protect his own legendary status. Because of this, he became more prone to outbursts, never more visible than on England's last Caribbean tour. I know it is the most difficult decision for any sportsman to know when to leave and it is always sad to see geniuses reduced to the level of mere mortals. Romantically, I would have like to have seen Viv Richards leave cricket in 1988. Since then, although he played some great innings, the reflexes were not as sharp and playing fast bowlers off the back foot, he became much more vulnerable. Sportsmen often hang in there because they feel they do not have a better alternative, even though they are way past their prime. Although he has said that he would consider offers to play for a new county after Glamorgan, my suggestion to Viv is not to fall into the trap and do something like go into politics in Antigua. For me, he remains the greatest batsman of my generation. The one stroke I will always remember was in a one-day match in Aus- tralia in 1981 when he advanced down the wicket at Thomson, at his fastest and armed with a new ball. He smashed a short ball from him to the mid-on fence.
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/60019.html
    Last edited by Chrish; 1st March 2017 at 22:04.

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    What would have been Viv's numbers in this era?

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    You don't compare between era but you compare within contemporaries but King Viv is an exception.

    You can compare Viv to the Batsmen of today with Safety Gear, heavier bats, T20, docile Pitches, rules tilted in favour of batsmen and King Viv still stands favorably and that is the greatness of the man.

    Sehwag would wet his Pants against Lille, Jeff, Holding, Marshall & Imran. With Sehwag's skills he would have probably seriously injured himself.

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    There is nobody even today who bats with uetter contempt and disdain for the best of the Bowlers. King Viv came to dominate and he did.

    Kohli and co are not in the same league but if you didn't witness King Viv step out to bat you may never get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordJames View Post
    You don't compare between era but you compare within contemporaries but King Viv is an exception.

    You can compare Viv to the Batsmen of today with Safety Gear, heavier bats, T20, docile Pitches, rules tilted in favour of batsmen and King Viv still stands favorably and that is the greatness of the man.

    Sehwag would wet his Pants against Lille, Jeff, Holding, Marshall & Imran. With Sehwag's skills he would have probably seriously injured himself.
    Any proof? Assumptions, right?


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordJames View Post
    You don't compare between era but you compare within contemporaries but King Viv is an exception.

    You can compare Viv to the Batsmen of today with Safety Gear, heavier bats, T20, docile Pitches, rules tilted in favour of batsmen and King Viv still stands favorably and that is the greatness of the man.

    Sehwag would wet his Pants against Lille, Jeff, Holding, Marshall & Imran. With Sehwag's skills he would have probably seriously injured himself.
    So do you mean to say that all those bowlers you mentioned above were miles better than Akthar, Wasim, Waqar, Donald, Lee, Steyn, Bond etc? any reason why you brought Sehwag into this, when this? Curious


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    Quote Originally Posted by EliteCynical View Post
    So do you mean to say that all those bowlers you mentioned above were miles better than Akthar, Wasim, Waqar, Donald, Lee, Steyn, Bond etc? any reason why you brought Sehwag into this, when this? Curious
    Apart from Akhtar it isn't as if Sehwag dominated the others a lot

    Also he was a walking wicket when ball was moving

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    Undoubtedly the GOAT.


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    You could spend all afternoon looking at Viv Richards batting clips, but of my favourite Richards memories was his duel with Duncan Spencer.

    Duncan who ? A forgotten Australian fast bowler who eventually was banned for a drug-related offence, but came onto the county scene in the 90s and was SERIOUSLY quick. Ricky Ponting says he's one of the fastest pacers he's ever seen.

    Spencer idolised Richards and they faced off in the twilight of Richard's career in 1993 in a match between Kent and Glamorgan. One of the rare times I saw Richards troubled by a pacer. Love the show of respect at the end of the over.







    Duel begins at 5:52.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 2nd March 2017 at 19:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Apart from Akhtar it isn't as if Sehwag dominated the others a lot

    Also he was a walking wicket when ball was moving
    Totally agree and I am not saying he is comparable to Viv. I was responding to a post regarding him wetting his pants vs those bowlers. I have seen Sehwag score 100's in Aus and SA. It could be argued the conditions were not perfectly seaming conditions, but there was indeed a time when Sehwag's hand eye coordination was second to none. Plus this thread isn't even about Sehwag. Don't get me wrong. I am not being defensive about Sehwag, i am just calling out irrelevance and trolling!


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    Greatest of all Time

    Sir Vivian Richards!


    Sarfi as captain'll lead us to glory.Babar'll be our best odi bat & Haris'll be world class in tests

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLcric123 View Post
    What would have been Viv's numbers in this era?
    Hypothetical & I can't prove, but I think his average won't have been much better - he didn't play for numbers.

    But there would have been significant change in his strike rate & century counts. He played most numbers of outstanding innings of 70s & 80s - dominant, brutal, almost to the level of personal contest with the main bowling threats. Many of those 75+ innings would have been 100+ now days. His average won't have improved significantly, because even now he would have been out for low, single digit scores lot & he is never a player who would cash like Lara's 375, 400 or Hayden's 380. Just not the personality to motivate himself to drag him for a milestone on a belter or against poor attack, hence average won't have improved much ch.

    I'll say he would have averaged around 55-60 in ODI with a SR of around 125 - that's similar average of AB & a significantly higher SR, had he started career at identical time. BUT man, he won't have choked on big matches like AB for sure.

    In Test, it would have been around 60/90 for ~12k runs for around 125 Tests & between 35-38 Test hundreds. He missed almost 3 years of international career, which is about 20 Tests between the age of 27-29 when he was at least twice the batsman of the second man Greg Chappel; otherwise his Test career would have been 55+/75+ for 10k+ runs & another 7-8 Test Hundreds.


    If ever you find it, watch Viv in the Packer series & then WI tour of AUS of 1979, try to watch - it's the ultimate of a human limit in terms of reflex, hand-eye coordination, bat swing & balance to shift body weight into shot power. He wasn't technically best player & with age declined fast, but before 30s, in Test, he averaged around 65 at around 75 SR in an era when avegare scoring rate was 2.5 & he didn't get any soft match - not even SRL if 80s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliteCynical View Post
    So do you mean to say that all those bowlers you mentioned above were miles better than Akthar, Wasim, Waqar, Donald, Lee, Steyn, Bond etc? any reason why you brought Sehwag into this, when this? Curious
    I'm a fan of sehwag's batting but this is ridiculous lol sehwag never faced wasim waqar donald in their youth. Lee was just an okay test bowler.

    I dont know about sehwag's record against steyn aNd bond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madplayer View Post
    I'm a fan of sehwag's batting but this is ridiculous lol sehwag never faced wasim waqar donald in their youth. Lee was just an okay test bowler.

    I dont know about sehwag's record against steyn aNd bond.
    I have clarified in Post #47. I am no where comparing the two. Viv is in a league of his own!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Any proof? Assumptions, right?
    How man odi series did sehwag won india in south africa and australia?
    Zero!

    That answers it

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    There is no one like the King. Sehwag is an inferior version, and not even comparable in ODIs.

    The official poor man's Sir Viv is de Villiers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
    Any proof? Assumptions, right?
    I only ever saw Sehwag play one series against quality quick bowling on fast tracks with some lateral movement, in South Africa in 2006-07.

    His scores were:

    4 and 33
    0 and 8
    40 and 4

    Virender Sehwag can't be compared with Viv Richards. He was more like a right-handed version of Roy Fredericks.

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    Viv is probably the most destructive batsmen to ever play the game.

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    Imagine this guy playing with the bat of Warner or Gayle. Qiyamat time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I only ever saw Sehwag play one series against quality quick bowling on fast tracks with some lateral movement, in South Africa in 2006-07.

    His scores were:

    4 and 33
    0 and 8
    40 and 4

    Virender Sehwag can't be compared with Viv Richards. He was more like a right-handed version of Roy Fredericks.
    And where is the corresponding evidence for Viv ? Not one bowler bowled at Shoaib's pace in Viv's time ( please spare me the stories of Thommo and how far back the slip fielders were ... I have debunked that one already.) and most of the good bowlers were in his team.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    And where is the corresponding evidence for Viv ? Not one bowler bowled at Shoaib's pace in Viv's time ( please spare me the stories of Thommo and how far back the slip fielders were ... I have debunked that one already.) and most of the good bowlers were in his team.
    Lol he used to face Malcom Marshall and Ambrose all the time in county cricket so your logic doesn't work... nice try but come up with a new one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badsha001 View Post
    Lol he used to face Malcom Marshall and Ambrose all the time in county cricket so your logic doesn't work... nice try but come up with a new one.
    Lets see some score cards then .... should be easy


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Lets see some score cards then .... should be easy
    Why only scorecard, here is the statistics for his county career...

    http://www.cricketcountry.com/articl...-quicks-203715

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    And where is the corresponding evidence for Viv ? Not one bowler bowled at Shoaib's pace in Viv's time ( please spare me the stories of Thommo and how far back the slip fielders were ... I have debunked that one already.) and most of the good bowlers were in his team.
    I don't think you have debunked it, at all.

    In 75-76 there is no earthly way that Thommo was bowling at less than an average of 150K. In fact, at least a quarter of his deliveries would have been faster than anything Lee, Tait or Shoaib ever bowled in their lives.

    Richards played at various times against the following bowlers at the following paces:

    Thommo 150-175
    Lillee 140-155 until 1978.
    Pascoe 140-150
    Willis 140-145
    Hadlee 140'ish until 1981
    Imran 140-150
    Wasim Akram (1986-88) 145-155
    Waqar Younis (1988-1991) 150-160

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    Quote Originally Posted by badsha001 View Post
    Why only scorecard, here is the statistics for his county career...

    http://www.cricketcountry.com/articl...-quicks-203715
    Have you read the article you linked? It just supports what @Tusker is saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I don't think you have debunked it, at all.

    In 75-76 there is no earthly way that Thommo was bowling at less than an average of 150K. In fact, at least a quarter of his deliveries would have been faster than anything Lee, Tait or Shoaib ever bowled in their lives.

    Richards played at various times against the following bowlers at the following paces:

    Thommo 150-175
    Lillee 140-155 until 1978.
    Pascoe 140-150
    Willis 140-145
    Hadlee 140'ish until 1981
    Imran 140-150
    Wasim Akram (1986-88) 145-155
    Waqar Younis (1988-1991) 150-160
    The rest sound somewhat believable but Thompson bowling at 175KPH, come on the hype he gets is way too much. People just like to romanticise the past. There is no proof to suggest that Thompson was as fast as he and his fans like to claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MABA View Post
    The rest sound somewhat believable but Thompson bowling at 175KPH, come on the hype he gets is way too much. People just like to romanticise the past. There is no proof to suggest that Thompson was as fast as he and his fans like to claim.
    I know what I saw!

    Those of us who watched cricket in the seventies are still here. I'm not even fifty years old!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I know what I saw!

    Those of us who watched cricket in the seventies are still here. I'm not even fifty years old!
    One does not have to be a super genius to gauge pace of a bowler.
    When amir returned after his ban, pakistani ppers called specific deliveries of amir as 145k. And indians used to say, "how are you so sure about that, how is this possible
    Well, he did indeed bowled in 145ks.

    Similarly, whoever played against or with mike holding and jeff thompson would be able to tell how fast thommo was when speed guns were introduced in 1993 etc.

    Imran Khan had faced waqar younis prime of 1991,,, yet he said that michael holding and thommo were the fastest. Waqar younis post injury 1993 was clocked at 153k. So it is reasonable to say that he bowled faster than 153k even 160k. With that being said, if a cricketer says that thommo and michael holding were 155k+/160k+ then it one cannot just reject it based on the fact tht there were no speeguns at that time.

    @MMHS any thoughts?

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    Thompson would not be quicker than Starc or Johnson on modern speed guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Thompson would not be quicker than Starc or Johnson on modern speed guns.
    You sound like the people who think fast bowling began with modern technology.

    By the same logic, a Boeing 787 is faster than Concorde, because Concorde was measured using old technology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by badsha001 View Post
    Why only scorecard, here is the statistics for his county career...

    http://www.cricketcountry.com/articl...-quicks-203715
    Sometimes you should actually read the contents of the links you post ... But thanks for making my job easier as it proves my point

    Quote Originally Posted by Sachin136 View Post
    Have you read the article you linked? It just supports what @Tusker is saying.
    Hilarious isn't it ? This is a classic example of how the older ERA players enjoy huge un-conditional support from fans. No need for scrutiny or anything just blind worship. They believe in everything that is written and in this case he thinks everything that was written is in praise of Viv. He probably went with the notion that how can anyone print anything critical about Viv


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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    You sound like the people who think fast bowling began with modern technology.

    By the same logic, a Boeing 787 is faster than Concorde, because Concorde was measured using old technology.
    Over time, I have learned to understand that some of the anecdotes of the former players in every sport is skewed to a considerable degree due to nostalgia and other factors. Isn't it surprising that the true great players in every sport existed at a time where there was less technology and less footage available, but more accounts of different people? Contemporary cricketers are nowhere near the older players, Messi/Ronaldo are not as good as Pele, Federer is not better than Rod Laver, Tiger Woods is not better than Jack Nicklaus etc. etc., and there are plenty of more examples.

    This actually reminds me of a religious analogy. I am a believer, but Atheists do make a powerful argument that new religions stopped forming and religious miracles stopped happening as soon as science and technology emerged. Same is the case with the athletes of yesteryears, superhuman feats such as Thompson bowling at 170+ etc. stopped happening as soon technology became more advanced.

    A month ago, there was a thread on PP over the no balls of Lindwall, in which the commentator hails Larwood as the 'speed king' who bowled at 70 mph. Now you can argue that according to modern technology, he would be bowling at 90+ mph, but you can reasonable discern bowling speed with the naked eye. Bowlers like Larwood, Trueman, Thompson etc. who are now hailed as super-fast by the likes of you, do not appear any quicker than the modern pacers considering the distance of their run up, the speed of their run up, the arm speed and also the distance at which the keeper and slips were standing.

    Thompson indeed looks fast, but not faster than Akhtar, Tait, Lee, Johnson and Starc etc., however, he was clearly around the 150 mark, and could have gone up to 160 on his effort balls like the aforementioned modern pacers. Nonetheless, to claim that he bowled at 170+ is extremely absurd and pure fiction. On the other hand, Larwood appear nothing more than a medium pace trundler who will get smashed in the IPL and PSL, supposedly the lowest forms of cricket according to you.

    Obviously, this does not mean that there were no great cricketers in the pre-footage era. However, the abilities and skills of a lot of these historic cricketers are highly skewed due to nostalgia, unverified statements and he said this and he said that, and stories that cannot be objectively verified. One can easily see that a Concorde was faster than a Boeing 787, but one can also easily see that the notion that Thompson bowled at 170+ and Larwood bowled at 90+ etc. are completely untrue.

    Unfortunately, modern players do not have this luxury and 50 years down the line, someone cannot claim that Starc could bowl at 170+ and Kohli was good enough to score 400 in an ODI if he had played in this era (I remember you once said that Lloyd would have scored 400 in an ODI in today's era), because the true abilities of modern day players will be easily verifiable, and thus the perception that the past players were always better than the modern players and that every era is inferior to the preceding era will die out.
    Last edited by Mamoon; 3rd March 2017 at 11:47.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Sometimes you should actually read the contents of the links you post ... But thanks for making my job easier as it proves my point



    Hilarious isn't it ? This is a classic example of how the older ERA players enjoy huge un-conditional support from fans. No need for scrutiny or anything just blind worship. They believe in everything that is written and in this case he thinks everything that was written is in praise of Viv. He probably went with the notion that how can anyone print anything critical about Viv
    Those numbers don't do the talking at all.

    Have you seen the pitches that were used in the West Indies in the 1970s and 1980s?

    The numbers which do do the talking relate to the SuperTests in 1977-78 and 1978-79. And you see that Barry Richards, Viv Richards and Greg Chappell were on a different planet to all the other batsmen, in matches where every team had 2-3 ATG fast bowlers.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Those numbers don't do the talking at all.

    Have you seen the pitches that were used in the West Indies in the 1970s and 1980s?
    I obviously havent. But don't expect me to believe everything written about past ERA without some sort of realistic evidence that can stand basic scrutiny.

    The numbers which do do the talking relate to the SuperTests in 1977-78 and 1978-79. And you see that Barry Richards, Viv Richards and Greg Chappell were on a different planet to all the other batsmen, in matches where every team had 2-3 ATG fast bowlers.
    The point I was making was about Viv vs the Great WI bowlers.


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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I don't think you have debunked it, at all.
    You probably missed my post in a different thread ... here is the clip that gives a fair indication of how far back the slips were when Thommo was bowling full speed (pre-injury) .

    https://youtu.be/kF14-_npFVw?t=21s


    It is very clear from that footage that the 1st slip is standing at about 10-12 steps from the stumps. Reduce the playback speed on Youtube to 0.25 and you can easily count the steps as the 1st Slip fielder jogs towards Thommo.

    Footage is from the 2nd inngs of the 1974 Gabba Test match : http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63136.html




    In 75-76 there is no earthly way that Thommo was bowling at less than an average of 150K. In fact, at least a quarter of his deliveries would have been faster than anything Lee, Tait or Shoaib ever bowled in their lives.

    Richards played at various times against the following bowlers at the following paces:

    Thommo 150-175
    Lillee 140-155 until 1978.
    Pascoe 140-150
    Willis 140-145
    Hadlee 140'ish until 1981
    Imran 140-150
    Wasim Akram (1986-88) 145-155
    Waqar Younis (1988-1991) 150-160
    Sorry but there is no evidence to back this up.


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  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    I obviously havent. But don't expect me to believe everything written about past ERA without some sort of realistic evidence that can stand basic scrutiny.



    The point I was making was about Viv vs the Great WI bowlers.
    Sure, that's a very good point.

    But I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of those stats.

    From 1975-1990 I would avidly follow the daily West Indies domestic scorecards, listen to every ball of England's tours of the West Indies and watch the two minute highlights on the news. That was all you could do. And by the late-80's I'd also buy Tony Cozier's magazine-format Wisden equivalent, to read about every day of every match.

    The domestic pitches were much less prepared than the Test/ODI surfaces. Team scores of 300 only happened in Guyana and occasionally Port of Spain.

    Every batsman averaged 10 less than his Test average, even though Tests at that time included Lillee, Thomson, Pascoe, Alderman, Lawson, Hadlee, Willis, Botham, Edmonds, Imran Khan, Wasim Akram, Abdul Qadir, Kapil Dev, etc etc.

    Ironically, it's why I loved the first Pink Ball Tests in Australia. I think 2-3 centuries per team in a Test series is about right!

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Sure, that's a very good point.

    But I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of those stats.

    From 1975-1990 I would avidly follow the daily West Indies domestic scorecards, listen to every ball of England's tours of the West Indies and watch the two minute highlights on the news. That was all you could do. And by the late-80's I'd also buy Tony Cozier's magazine-format Wisden equivalent, to read about every day of every match.

    The domestic pitches were much less prepared than the Test/ODI surfaces. Team scores of 300 only happened in Guyana and occasionally Port of Spain.
    There is no way you could have followed WI Domestic FirstClass matches sitting in England. Reading summaries about it does not count as true following. Heck I don't even count Radio commentary as evidence of following matches.

    And here is a score card where both teams scored > 300 in Domestic FC match in WI http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Sc.../35/35893.html

    I can produce a lot more of these if I put time into it.

    I hope you realize why I simply do not believe anything written about past ERAs ? Over the past year or so I have provided you numerous examples that clearly refute the traditional views and opinions about past cricketers.


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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Over time, I have learned to understand that some of the anecdotes of the former players in every sport is skewed to a considerable degree due to nostalgia and other factors. Isn't it surprising that the true great players in every sport existed at a time where there was less technology and less footage available, but more accounts of different people? Contemporary cricketers are nowhere near the older players, Messi/Ronaldo are not as good as Pele, Federer is not better than Rod Laver, Tiger Woods is not better than Jack Nicklaus etc. etc., and there are plenty of more examples.

    This actually reminds me of a religious analogy. I am a believer, but Atheists do make a powerful argument that new religions stopped forming and religious miracles stopped happening as soon as science and technology emerged. Same is the case with the athletes of yesteryears, superhuman feats such as Thompson bowling at 170+ etc. stopped happening as soon technology became more advanced.

    A month ago, there was a thread on PP over the no balls of Lindwall, in which the commentator hails Larwood as the 'speed king' who bowled at 70 mph. Now you can argue that according to modern technology, he would be bowling at 90+ mph, but you can reasonable discern bowling speed with the naked eye. Bowlers like Larwood, Trueman, Thompson etc. who are now hailed as super-fast by the likes of you, do not appear any quicker than the modern pacers considering the distance of their run up, the speed of their run up, the arm speed and also the distance at which the keeper and slips were standing.

    Thompson indeed looks fast, but not faster than Akhtar, Tait, Lee, Johnson and Starc etc., however, he was clearly around the 150 mark, and could have gone up to 160 on his effort balls like the aforementioned modern pacers. Nonetheless, to claim that he bowled at 170+ is extremely absurd and pure fiction. On the other hand, Larwood appear nothing more than a medium pace trundler who will get smashed in the IPL and PSL, supposedly the lowest forms of cricket according to you.

    Obviously, this does not mean that there were no great cricketers in the pre-footage era. However, the abilities and skills of a lot of these historic cricketers are highly skewed due to nostalgia, unverified statements and he said this and he said that, and stories that cannot be objectively verified. One can easily see that a Concorde was faster than a Boeing 787, but one can also easily see that the notion that Thompson bowled at 170+ and Larwood bowled at 90+ etc. are completely untrue.

    Unfortunately, modern players do not have this luxury and 50 years down the line, someone cannot claim that Starc could bowl at 170+ and Kohli was good enough to score 400 in an ODI if he had played in this era (I remember you once said that Lloyd would have scored 400 in an ODI in today's era), because the true abilities of modern day players will be easily verifiable, and thus the perception that the past players were always better than the modern players and that every era is inferior to the preceding era will die out.
    Fantastic Post. POTW material.


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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    There is no way you could have followed WI Domestic FirstClass matches sitting in England. Reading summaries about it does not count as true following. Heck I don't even count Radio commentary as evidence of following matches.

    And here is a score card where both teams scored > 300 in Domestic FC match in WI http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Sc.../35/35893.html

    I can produce a lot more of these if I put time into it.

    I hope you realize why I simply do not believe anything written about past ERAs ? Over the past year or so I have provided you numerous examples that clearly refute the traditional views and opinions about past cricketers.
    It's just a matter of how people consume cricket.

    The first time I saw Ian Bishop bowl, I knew exactly how he would bowl, from what height, with what action and with late outswing. Just like with Tendulkar batting. I'd read all about them.

    I first saw Inzamam bat at the '92 World Cup, but I'd been following him for two years since an article in "The Cricketer" about young Pakistan cricketers.

    I saw everything that was televised from '75 onwards, but I also was constantly at Old Trafford and saw players with my own eyes there.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    And here is a score card where both teams scored > 300 in Domestic FC match in WI http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Sc.../35/35893.html
    Zero current internationals in that match. Gordon Greenidge had been 12th man in a Test at the MCG a week earlier, and Garner and Daniel were yet to break through into Test cricket.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    It's just a matter of how people consume cricket.

    The first time I saw Ian Bishop bowl, I knew exactly how he would bowl, from what height, with what action and with late outswing. Just like with Tendulkar batting. I'd read all about them.

    I first saw Inzamam bat at the '92 World Cup, but I'd been following him for two years since an article in "The Cricketer" about young Pakistan cricketers.

    I saw everything that was televised from '75 onwards, but I also was constantly at Old Trafford and saw players with my own eyes there.
    Growing up in pre-internet era ... cricket was all about how much brainwashing one took as Gospel. I was fortunate enough to learn a invaluable lesson from a real life event that you cannot take anything from anyone at face value. This includes everything written about Tendulkar too !!

    Anyhow care to respond to post#71 about slip fielders while Thommo was bowling ?


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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Zero current internationals in that match. Gordon Greenidge had been 12th man in a Test at the MCG a week earlier, and Garner and Daniel were yet to break through into Test cricket.
    Well your claim was that (And I quote) : "Team scores of 300 only happened in Guyana and occasionally Port of Spain." and that scorecard proves otherwise.

    You are now introducing more criteria to it. However that criteria does not apply to this discussion (which is about Viv against WI bowlers in Domestic matches) as Viv Richards certainly played against non-international players in domestic FC matches.


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    West Indies of 80s were, arguably, greatest ever team ( with all due respect to MJ's Dream Team).

    That said, Viv was the ultimate representation of that team. Man pwned bowlers all around the world like no one ever did before. As Imran Khan said: "He used to walk in to bat as if he owned the arena".

    Each and every skipper, bowler, batsman or fan who watched him play rates him very high. A bona fide legend of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pacesensation View Post
    One does not have to be a super genius to gauge pace of a bowler.
    When amir returned after his ban, pakistani ppers called specific deliveries of amir as 145k. And indians used to say, "how are you so sure about that, how is this possible
    Well, he did indeed bowled in 145ks.

    Similarly, whoever played against or with mike holding and jeff thompson would be able to tell how fast thommo was when speed guns were introduced in 1993 etc.

    Imran Khan had faced waqar younis prime of 1991,,, yet he said that michael holding and thommo were the fastest. Waqar younis post injury 1993 was clocked at 153k. So it is reasonable to say that he bowled faster than 153k even 160k. With that being said, if a cricketer says that thommo and michael holding were 155k+/160k+ then it one cannot just reject it based on the fact tht there were no speeguns at that time.

    @MMHS any thoughts?
    Personally, I look at the records of cricket before 70s, just as part of history; don't think it was a serious professional sports then.

    Regarding bowling speed, I don't think before Dennis Lillee & Andy Roberts, world had ever seen 140KM speed. One of our olden days cricketer played club cricket in 50s & he was a coach till his later days. I think, he reckoned Fazal Mahmood a bit faster than Afridi - that's 110-115KM with his effort ball. Sobers wasn't faster than Fazal - they had skills, but not the pace. I have seen enough clips & WK position - based on that I don't think Larwood's fastest was more than 125KM, Tyson may be in 130s. Also, those days, over rate was 2.5-3 minutes, therefore Test matches were played for 125-150 overs per day & these bowlers used to bowl 35-38 overs/day - unless they are Cyborgs, don't think, their pace after tea was more than Anil Kumble. And, in those time less Tests where Bradman & co piled large scores over 6/7 days, it's not humanly possible to maintain average peak speed through out the match. Therefore, my hunch is by 3rd day, bowlers with 125km top speed would struggle to match Ganguly or Soumya in Day 3 on wards, bowling 135 overs/day. I never argue on players of different era - Hobbs was by far best in his era, so was Bradman & Syd Barnes. I rate cricketers from 70s to 90s highest because of the quality & competitiveness of the game.

    In terms of pace, Thommo was exceptionally quick - 175KM is a bit ... you know, but i do think, at his fastest, he was very close to Sohaib & Lee, probably at per with Waquar at his fastest. Holding was slightly slower than Thommo. I think, Imran felt Mike & Thommo faster because he faced them as a No. 9 without much protective gears - at Waquar's fastest, Imarn was an accomplished batman. Mike's action was so smooth that he could maintain top speed for long, long spells, but his peak wasn't faster than even Donald.

    I am the biggest fan of Imran - but don't think, he ever reached 147.3KM (Srinath's fastest, Razzak was even faster), he had other bowling skills, which is diminishing from the game, but average speed in world cricket was fastest in 90s & early 2000s.

    Fastest 5 bowlers in my judgment in history (last 3 not in order)

    Sohaib, Lee, Zahid, Waquar, Thompson.
    Last edited by MMHS; 3rd March 2017 at 18:25.

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