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  1. #81
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    @Junaids ... No response to this ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    You probably missed my post in a different thread ... here is the clip that gives a fair indication of how far back the slips were when Thommo was bowling full speed (pre-injury) .

    https://youtu.be/kF14-_npFVw?t=21s


    It is very clear from that footage that the 1st slip is standing at about 10-12 steps from the stumps. Reduce the playback speed on Youtube to 0.25 and you can easily count the steps as the 1st Slip fielder jogs towards Thommo.

    Footage is from the 2nd inngs of the 1974 Gabba Test match : http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63136.html






    Sorry but there is no evidence to back this up.


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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    Personally, I look at the records of cricket before 70s, just as part of history; don't think it was a serious professional sports then.

    Regarding bowling speed, I don't think before Dennis Lillee & Andy Roberts, world had ever seen 140KM speed. One of our olden days cricketer played club cricket in 50s & he was a coach till his later days. I think, he reckoned Fazal Mahmood a bit faster than Afridi - that's 110-115KM with his effort ball. Sobers wasn't faster than Fazal - they had skills, but not the pace. I have seen enough clips & WK position - based on that I don't think Larwood's fastest was more than 125KM, Tyson may be in 130s. Also, those days, over rate was 2.5-3 minutes, therefore Test matches were played for 125-150 overs per day & these bowlers used to bowl 35-38 overs/day - unless they are Cyborgs, don't think, their pace after tea was more than Anil Kumble. And, in those time less Tests where Bradman & co piled large scores over 6/7 days, it's not humanly possible to maintain average peak speed through out the match. Therefore, my hunch is by 3rd day, bowlers with 125km top speed would struggle to match Ganguly or Soumya in Day 3 on wards, bowling 135 overs/day. I never argue on players of different era - Hobbs was by far best in his era, so was Bradman & Syd Barnes. I rate cricketers from 70s to 90s highest because of the quality & competitiveness of the game.

    In terms of pace, Thommo was exceptionally quick - 175KM is a bit ... you know, but i do think, at his fastest, he was very close to Sohaib & Lee, probably at per with Waquar at his fastest. Holding was slightly slower than Thommo. I think, Imran felt Mike & Thommo faster because he faced them as a No. 9 without much protective gears - at Waquar's fastest, Imarn was an accomplished batman. Mike's action was so smooth that he could maintain top speed for long, long spells, but his peak wasn't faster than even Donald.

    I am the biggest fan of Imran - but don't think, he ever reached 147.3KM (Srinath's fastest, Razzak was even faster), he had other bowling skills, which is diminishing from the game, but average speed in world cricket was fastest in 90s & early 2000s.

    Fastest 5 bowlers in my judgment in history (last 3 not in order)

    Sohaib, Lee, Zahid, Waquar, Thompson.
    You made very reasonable points

    And you do believe that thommo was probably as fast as akhtar. Thats what i wanted to know

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    @Junaids ... No response to this ?
    he did not respond because your post does not merits any attention. Your arguments are not conclusive.
    So its not worth his time.

    bottom line, sachin's and sehwag are inferior to king viv

    viv la king richards!

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacesensation View Post
    he did not respond because your post does not merits any attention. Your arguments are not conclusive.
    So its not worth his time.
    What is not conclusive about a video that anyone can see and verify what Iam saying ? Do you even know what is being discussed ?

    @Junaids is adamant that the slip fielders stood the farthest when Thommo was bowling and I just refuted that, do you have anything to add to that other than make onesided statements ?


    bottom line, sachin's and sehwag are inferior to king viv

    viv la king richards!
    nobody is talking about those 2 in this thread (atleast not me)... but the fact that you decided to bring them in tells us all there is to know about how these 2 make you insecure. Thanks!


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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    You probably missed my post in a different thread ... here is the clip that gives a fair indication of how far back the slips were when Thommo was bowling full speed (pre-injury) .

    https://youtu.be/kF14-_npFVw?t=21s


    It is very clear from that footage that the 1st slip is standing at about 10-12 steps from the stumps. Reduce the playback speed on Youtube to 0.25 and you can easily count the steps as the 1st Slip fielder jogs towards Thommo.

    Footage is from the 2nd inngs of the 1974 Gabba Test match : http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63136.html






    Sorry but there is no evidence to back this up.
    I do fully agree that Thommo is not at full throttle on a second innings wicket bowling at the seventh wicket partnership.

    But many of your arguments betray the same generational biases that you accuse me of.

    You disregard as inadequate the ways we used to consume cricket: in person, home internationals on TV, radio, newspapers, and effectively say that only modern TV coverage can provide evidence of quality, speed or anything else.

    But as I keep saying, on that basis a 900 km/h Boeing 737-800 is quicker than Concorde which cruised at 2140 km/h.

    I don't know what you think 1970's and 1980's cricketers did when they weren't playing. They were full-time professionals, and I've given you the example many times before that Fred Trueman was a far better Test bowler than Mitchell Starc because he had bowled far more First Class overs to a slip cordon.

    Modern methods are clearly worse in terms of Test preparation in every domain except for fielding and lower-order batting. Not only can Australia not get Cummins and Pattinson on the pitch because of the dreadful dogma around physical preparation, but a hugely talented bowler like Mitchell Starc has still not learned how to bowl in Tests, relying on his ODI methods and ball tampering for reverse swing instead.

    Cummins, Hazelwood, Pattinson and Starc have the potential to be as good - or better - than the Windies pace quartets of 1976-1986. But between inferior physical preparation regimes and not bowling enough First Class overs nobody in their right minds makes that comparison - and I've been laughed out of the pub for even suggesting it.

    I learned in 1987 with Craig McDermott that "innovations" in physical preparation are far more likely to ruin a fast bowler than help him. If he had just done bowling and running like Imran Khan or Mikey Holding he would have taken 600 Test wickets.

  6. #86
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    Just to further refute the idea that only modern players are professionals.......

    Fred Trueman bowled 99,701 First Class balls, taking 2304 wickets.

    At the age of 27, Mitchell Starc has only bowled 12,000 First Class deliveries, and taken 257 wickets.

    No wonder then that in Tests he is still Wahab Starc. He is a rank amateur compared with his predecessors. He has the height, the pace, the bounce and the action. But he doesn't know how to bowl, because in every form of cricket combined he has only bowled 19,000 balls, and a third of them were in lower forms of the game where you can't have a slip cordon.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I do fully agree that Thommo is not at full throttle on a second innings wicket bowling at the seventh wicket partnership.
    Knew you would say that !!

    So watch the 2 clips below (at 0.25 speed). Clips are from that same match involving the same bowler same slip fielder about same time in the day except its his first spell in the 1st Eng inngs of that same Test match

    https://youtu.be/3SzyNWT5yJ0?t=18m20s

    https://youtu.be/3SzyNWT5yJ0?t=18m38s

    What do we have ? Same result. But somehow this still might not be enough to convince you that the slip fielders stood at normal distances ... time will tell.



    But many of your arguments betray the same generational biases that you accuse me of.
    Iam biased against illogical and unsubstantiated stories ... it just so happens that the older generations produced a lot more of those. If you believe otherwise thats fine. Just don't expect me to believe it. A good reason is right here in this thread (above).

    You disregard as inadequate the ways we used to consume cricket: in person, home internationals on TV, radio, newspapers, and effectively say that only modern TV coverage can provide evidence of quality, speed or anything else.
    Wooah ... where did I say all that ? I only said Radio and written accounts don't really count as proper evidence to prove your point. There will be exceptions but you cant possibly argue against the value of watching footage. Surely you would understand now (after watching the above clips) the value of actual footage instead of going by notoriously embellished accounts



    But as I keep saying, on that basis a 900 km/h Boeing 737-800 is quicker than Concorde which cruised at 2140 km/h.
    Ehh? Not sure I understand this. explain.


    I don't know what you think 1970's and 1980's cricketers did when they weren't playing. They were full-time professionals, and I've given you the example many times before that Fred Trueman was a far better Test bowler than Mitchell Starc because he had bowled far more First Class overs to a slip cordon.
    This is not true. Maybe for a select few but the West Indian team that you soo idolize ... they only got paid if they played which meant they would try to play even if not fully fit !! There was no contract.

    Will get to the rest of your post later.


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  8. #88
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    @Tusker
    No international cricketers had central contracts in the period 1976-1986.

    Most top players earned most of their income in county cricket, where the West Indians tended to be the best paid players.

    And it would have been very hard for a West Indies fast bowler to play injured. Consider at random the year 1981: the West Indies attack was

    Andy Roberts
    Joel Garner
    Michael Holding
    Colin Croft

    But the reserves were:

    5. Sylvester Clarke
    6. Malcolm Marshall
    7. Franklyn Stephenson
    8. Ezra Moseley
    9. Hartley Alleyne

    .... each of whom down as far as Moseley would be by far the best bowler in the world now.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    @Tusker
    No international cricketers had central contracts in the period 1976-1986.

    Most top players earned most of their income in county cricket, where the West Indians tended to be the best paid players.

    And it would have been very hard for a West Indies fast bowler to play injured. Consider at random the year 1981: the West Indies attack was

    Andy Roberts
    Joel Garner
    Michael Holding
    Colin Croft

    But the reserves were:

    5. Sylvester Clarke
    6. Malcolm Marshall
    7. Franklyn Stephenson
    8. Ezra Moseley
    9. Hartley Alleyne

    .... each of whom down as far as Moseley would be by far the best bowler in the world now.
    You have no clue about the improvement in athletic standards that have occurred in the vast majority of sports over the past few decades.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    You have no clue about the improvement in athletic standards that have occurred in the vast majority of sports over the past few decades.
    No, with respect, you have no clue as to the limitations of the significance of that improvement in terms of ball sports.

    If you consider football, Lionel Messi can run twice as far in a match as the players of the 1980's did. But the referees protect him from being kicked the way that Maradona and Platini and Laudrup were thirty years ago. Almost certainly this means that they would excel now with appropriate conditioning, but his game would almost certainly have suffered under the old rules.

    The same is true with batting. The effect of gym work, huge bats, short boundaries and grassless wickets is that the likes of Warner or Smith can score at a rapid rate in such conditions. But we saw in England 20 months ago that when confronted with traditional conditions - they were certainly not greentops because the movement was mainly in the air not off the seam - they wet their pants and failed like primary school boys.

    Bowling, unfortunately, has been even more damaged by "progress".

    Do you not wonder why men like Cummins and Pattinson and De Lange who respectively in all forms of cricket have so far bowled 5,300, 10,600 and 9,700 balls in their lives cannot get fit enough to play? Whereas Fred Trueman bowled 99,701 balls at a rapid pace.

    And indeed why modern bowlers can't sustain the side-on action which produces away-swing when bowlers in earlier generations managed careers of 61,000 balls (Bob Willis), 69,900 balls (John Snow) and 44,000 balls (Malcolm Marshall).

    The bottom line is that in cricket, modern physical conditioning doesn't help fast bowlers, it damages them.
    Last edited by Junaids; 12th March 2017 at 08:41.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    If you consider football, Lionel Messi can run twice as far in a match as the players of the 1980's did. But the referees protect him from being kicked the way that Maradona and Platini and Laudrup were thirty years ago. Almost certainly this means that they would excel now with appropriate conditioning, but his game would almost certainly have suffered under the old rules.
    Your logical abilities leave much to be desired. Comparing Messi's performance to himself (without protection) is a comparison that proves zilch.

    The same is true with batting. The effect of gym work, huge bats, short boundaries and grassless wickets is that the likes of Warner or Smith can score at a rapid rate in such conditions. But we saw in England 20 months ago that when confronted with traditional conditions - they were certainly not greentops because the movement was mainly in the air not off the seam - they wet their pants and failed like primary school boys.
    You do understand that the improvement in standards also applies to bowlers. The implicit assumption in your argument is that Warner and Smith were facing bowlers from earlier decades on English greentops.

    Bowling, unfortunately, has been even more damaged by "progress".

    Do you not wonder why men like Cummins and Pattinson and De Lange who respectively in all forms of cricket have so far bowled 5,300, 10,600 and 9,700 balls in their lives cannot get fit enough to play? Whereas Fred Trueman bowled 99,701 balls at a rapid pace.
    Here is a clue: Cummins and Pattinson and De Lange bowl at a greater pace than Trueman.

    And indeed why modern bowlers can't sustain the side-on action which produces away-swing when bowlers in earlier generations managed careers of 61,000 balls (Bob Willis), 69,900 balls (John Snow) and 44,000 balls (Malcolm Marshall).

    The bottom line is that in cricket, modern physical conditioning doesn't help fast bowlers, it damages them.
    If modern physical conditioning actually damaged bowlers then they would forgo it. Bowlers without that conditioning would be more successful.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    No, with respect, you have no clue as to the limitations of the significance of that improvement in terms of ball sports.

    If you consider football, Lionel Messi can run twice as far in a match as the players of the 1980's did. But the referees protect him from being kicked the way that Maradona and Platini and Laudrup were thirty years ago. Almost certainly this means that they would excel now with appropriate conditioning, but his game would almost certainly have suffered under the old rules.

    The same is true with batting. The effect of gym work, huge bats, short boundaries and grassless wickets is that the likes of Warner or Smith can score at a rapid rate in such conditions. But we saw in England 20 months ago that when confronted with traditional conditions - they were certainly not greentops because the movement was mainly in the air not off the seam - they wet their pants and failed like primary school boys.

    Bowling, unfortunately, has been even more damaged by "progress".

    Do you not wonder why men like Cummins and Pattinson and De Lange who respectively in all forms of cricket have so far bowled 5,300, 10,600 and 9,700 balls in their lives cannot get fit enough to play? Whereas Fred Trueman bowled 99,701 balls at a rapid pace.

    And indeed why modern bowlers can't sustain the side-on action which produces away-swing when bowlers in earlier generations managed careers of 61,000 balls (Bob Willis), 69,900 balls (John Snow) and 44,000 balls (Malcolm Marshall).

    The bottom line is that in cricket, modern physical conditioning doesn't help fast bowlers, it damages them.
    To what would you attribute many Olympic records being broken then? Im asking just out of curiosity, I do believe a lot of athletes are doping even if there is no evidence to prove it. Not unlike how Lance Armstrong got caught and said that everyone does it.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Here is a clue: Cummins and Pattinson and De Lange bowl at a greater pace than Trueman.
    Except they don't. They are all slower than Trueman was in his twenties. And none of them can swing it like him either.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollingstoned View Post
    To what would you attribute many Olympic records being broken then? Im asking just out of curiosity, I do believe a lot of athletes are doping even if there is no evidence to prove it. Not unlike how Lance Armstrong got caught and said that everyone does it.
    Primarily doping.

    Even "clean" athletes tend to use absurd amounts of supplements and peptides, and I suspect that most of them don't really understand which things are legal and illegal as opposed to what you can get caught for.

    The West Indies cricketers from early 1978 played year round and had a superb full-time fitness coach in Dennis Waight. They were genuine professionals.

    The thing about ball sports is that fitness only gets you so far. The fittest Pakistani cricketer is Amad Butt, but how far has that taken him? Not very!

    Imran Khan bowled 42,000 balls if you include WSC, and his fitness methods kept him fit - apart from 1 year of stress fractures - and fast.

    Shoaib Akhtar followed an Australian-style fitness program like McDermott and Pattinson which resulted in him having an upper body too bulky and heavy for his legs. His career didn't even last 22,000 balls.

    I am all for the integration of science into sport - I am a doctor! But I would counsel anyone against the blind application of fitness science to sports it was not designed for. And in the case of cricket, Australia's fast bowling stocks have been decimated by the employment of sports scientists who trained in courses more suited to keeping 110kg rugby league players fit to play rather than allowing 72 kg bowlers to do their job.

    Far too many 72 kg bowlers end up weighing 87 kg of solid muscle, but unable to stay fit or bowl away swing.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    You sound like the people who think fast bowling began with modern technology.

    By the same logic, a Boeing 787 is faster than Concorde, because Concorde was measured using old technology.
    In literally every single sport, physical athleticism and related standards have improved drastically in the last 30/40 years with professionalization.

    Additionally, in an issue that's just a question of hurling something very fast, it's literally impossible that one guy has 10% higher speed than anyone else in the history of the game.

    175kmph bowling is literally not possible. It's almost as fast as the baseball records. Both common-sense statistics and logic as well as biology tell you that baseball pitching is much faster.

    The fact that you think 175kph is a realistic assessment of his bowling speed brings anything you say on the topic into question.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketAnalyst View Post
    In literally every single sport, physical athleticism and related standards have improved drastically in the last 30/40 years with professionalization.

    Additionally, in an issue that's just a question of hurling something very fast, it's literally impossible that one guy has 10% higher speed than anyone else in the history of the game.

    175kmph bowling is literally not possible. It's almost as fast as the baseball records. Both common-sense statistics and logic as well as biology tell you that baseball pitching is much faster.

    The fact that you think 175kph is a realistic assessment of his bowling speed brings anything you say on the topic into question.
    Actually, I've never accepted that baseball pitching has to be faster.

    A fast bowler has momentum from the run-up, the leap and the full rotation of his arm. A baseball pitcher just stands still and chucks.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    No, with respect, you have no clue as to the limitations of the significance of that improvement in terms of ball sports.

    If you consider football, Lionel Messi can run twice as far in a match as the players of the 1980's did. But the referees protect him from being kicked the way that Maradona and Platini and Laudrup were thirty years ago. Almost certainly this means that they would excel now with appropriate conditioning, but his game would almost certainly have suffered under the old rules.

    The same is true with batting. The effect of gym work, huge bats, short boundaries and grassless wickets is that the likes of Warner or Smith can score at a rapid rate in such conditions. But we saw in England 20 months ago that when confronted with traditional conditions - they were certainly not greentops because the movement was mainly in the air not off the seam - they wet their pants and failed like primary school boys.

    Bowling, unfortunately, has been even more damaged by "progress".

    Do you not wonder why men like Cummins and Pattinson and De Lange who respectively in all forms of cricket have so far bowled 5,300, 10,600 and 9,700 balls in their lives cannot get fit enough to play? Whereas Fred Trueman bowled 99,701 balls at a rapid pace.

    And indeed why modern bowlers can't sustain the side-on action which produces away-swing when bowlers in earlier generations managed careers of 61,000 balls (Bob Willis), 69,900 balls (John Snow) and 44,000 balls (Malcolm Marshall).

    The bottom line is that in cricket, modern physical conditioning doesn't help fast bowlers, it damages them.
    Agreed about modern bowlers and training regimens.

    You are wrong about Smith, Warner etc though. They aren't worse in unusual conditions, they just have an attacking skill-set and are absolutely terrible when their outdated tactical approach says they need to play defensively. They wouldn't have been bundled like that if they attacked.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Actually, I've never accepted that baseball pitching has to be faster.

    A fast bowler has momentum from the run-up, the leap and the full rotation of his arm. A baseball pitcher just stands still and chucks.
    Why then has nobody in cricket except Akhtar (and allegedly Thompson) ever been at the pace that is considered a baseline requirement to be the top-choice pitcher for an MLB side?

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketAnalyst View Post
    In literally every single sport, physical athleticism and related standards have improved drastically in the last 30/40 years with professionalization.
    Improved physical output does not always lend itself to improvements in skill or performance.

    Everton's creative midfielder is now Ross Barkley. Fifteen years ago it was Paul Gascoigne.

    Barkley runs further and faster. But he can't dribble past defenders, has an inferior range of short and long passing and is even inferior defensively. Nobody in their right mind would prefer the physically-superior Barkley to the late-career Gascoigne.

    Fitness is great. But it does not necessarily mean that each generation of players is better than the last.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Improved physical output does not always lend itself to improvements in skill or performance.

    Everton's creative midfielder is now Ross Barkley. Fifteen years ago it was Paul Gascoigne.

    Barkley runs further and faster. But he can't dribble past defenders, has an inferior range of short and long passing and is even inferior defensively. Nobody in their right mind would prefer the physically-superior Barkley to the late-career Gascoigne.

    Fitness is great. But it does not necessarily mean that each generation of players is better than the last.
    In this case I was referring solely to physical ability because that's all that's involved in bowling at 175kmph if that's even possible (which it probably isn't).

  21. #101
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    And as an Everton supporter, I can assure you that our fortunes have followed the same path as those of Gazza. It's unrealistic to expect us to have (and keep) players of that calibre anymore.

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketAnalyst View Post
    In this case I was referring solely to physical ability because that's all that's involved in bowling at 175kmph if that's even possible (which it probably isn't).
    Part of the irony of where this thread has led is that I don't even respect express pace as a weapon.

    Jeff Thomson was a shadow of the bowler that Dennis Lillee was, just as Shoaib Akhtar was very much the Poor Man's Waqar Younis.

    Thommo's express pace came from a unique action and his history as a javelin thrower.

    But the greatness of Viv Richards was his ability to perform well against not just the express pace of Thommo but the guile of Hadlee and Lillee, the spin of Abdul Qadir and also the unusual angle and swing of Wasim Akram in that earth-shattering greatest series of all in the West Indies in 1987-88.

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Except they don't. They are all slower than Trueman was in his twenties. And none of them can swing it like him either.
    My apologies, I forgot that you got into your time machine with your speed gun and went back to the 1950s.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    My apologies, I forgot that you got into your time machine with your speed gun and went back to the 1950s.
    Yes, the same time machine which tells me that Concorde was faster than a Boeing 787.

    Have you ever watched Trueman bowl? You do understand that he retired as the world record Test wicket taker?

    He was undoubtedly the greatest ever English fast bowler. And in the 1950's he was also almost certainly the fastest ever English Test bowler.

    Most of the footage that survives is from the 1960's, but he was still pretty nippy even then.



    And I'm a Lancastrian saying this. And we don't like Yorkshire at all.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Yes, the same time machine which tells me that Concorde was faster than a Boeing 787.

    Have you ever watched Trueman bowl? You do understand that he retired as the world record Test wicket taker?

    He was undoubtedly the greatest ever English fast bowler. And in the 1950's he was also almost certainly the fastest ever English Test bowler.

    Most of the footage that survives is from the 1960's, but he was still pretty nippy even then.



    And I'm a Lancastrian saying this. And we don't like Yorkshire at all.
    By modern standards, the speed at which he runs in to bowl is rather slow. He almost seems to stop before rotation of the arm begins. My guess would be the actual ball was delivered at a speed somewhere between 115 to 125.

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    By modern standards, the speed at which he runs in to bowl is rather slow. He almost seems to stop before rotation of the arm begins. My guess would be the actual ball was delivered at a speed somewhere between 115 to 125.
    Ha ha.

    Well he was around 5-10K quicker than Brian Statham and around 25K quicker than Alec Bedser and 35K quicker than Trevor Bailey.

    So Bailey and Bedser must have been bowling backwards!

    You do understand that Trueman is almost certainly the second greatest fast bowler of all time, behind only Malcolm Marshall?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    By modern standards, the speed at which he runs in to bowl is rather slow. He almost seems to stop before rotation of the arm begins. My guess would be the actual ball was delivered at a speed somewhere between 115 to 125.
    Not exaggerating when I say I can't think of a single medium pacer in today's cricket who bowls slower than this.

    I can't even imagine what would happen to these batsmen had they faced Starc or Mitch without helmets.

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Ha ha.

    Well he was around 5-10K quicker than Brian Statham and around 25K quicker than Alec Bedser and 35K quicker than Trevor Bailey.

    So Bailey and Bedser must have been bowling backwards!

    You do understand that Trueman is almost certainly the second greatest fast bowler of all time, behind only Malcolm Marshall?
    He isn't bowling fast in that video. This is a fact. You can measure the time it takes to reach the stumps in that video and then compare that with Starc. It might take some technology but it can be done.

    You're asking people to ignore the evidence of their eyes because someone was considered great, in a bygone era when people just weren't that good.

    Also, having seen a video of Bedser bowling, he isn't much faster than Ravi Jadeja and certainly slower than spinners like Afridi

  29. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketAnalyst View Post
    Not exaggerating when I say I can't think of a single medium pacer in today's cricket who bowls slower than this.

    I can't even imagine what would happen to these batsmen had they faced Starc or Mitch without helmets.
    And yet Fred had a brilliant record against Sobers, Weekes, Walcott, Worrell, Neil Harvey, Bob Simpson, Bill Lawry and Ken Mackay!

  30. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketAnalyst View Post
    He isn't bowling fast in that video. This is a fact. You can measure the time it takes to reach the stumps in that video and then compare that with Starc. It might take some technology but it can be done.

    You're asking people to ignore the evidence of their eyes because someone was considered great, in a bygone era when people just weren't that good.

    Also, having seen a video of Bedser bowling, he isn't much faster than Ravi Jadeja and certainly slower than spinners like Afridi
    I think he's in the 130's in that video, and as I wrote, very little footage survives of Trueman bowling before his thirties.

    But in Tests, very few fast bowlers operate above 140 much of the time. Glenn McGrath bowled mainly in the upper 120's, yet in T20 would reach the 140s.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    And yet Fred had a brilliant record against Sobers, Weekes, Walcott, Worrell, Neil Harvey, Bob Simpson, Bill Lawry and Ken Mackay!
    A) I'm not necessarily asserting he's bad. Just that he's not as fast as you claim.

    B) The logical thesis is that everyone now, batsman and bowlers are better than the guys in the past. That is at least plausible if videos of bowling from the past demonstrate mediocre standards compared to now, but players bat better.

    The fact that this isn't considered is because this is an ego issue for old-timers who control too much in cricket.

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I think he's in the 130's in that video, and as I wrote, very little footage survives of Trueman bowling before his thirties.

    But in Tests, very few fast bowlers operate above 140 much of the time. Glenn McGrath bowled mainly in the upper 120's, yet in T20 would reach the 140s.
    Did you see Starc in the last Test? He was consistently bowling over 150. That's just so much faster it's not funny. Even Mitch Marsh hits 140s.

    Just imagine what those guys in that video would be like facing Starc's 150km yorkers and bouncers..

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    And I do think that's the valid comparison, because this isn't run of the mill Trueman. It's fired-up Trueman in the middle of taking 5 wickets for no runs. Starc in that mode is ever ball over 150.

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    @Junaids

    Are we done discussing Thommo or you still want to stick to your opinion that he was the fastest you saw based on slip fielders position ? If by anychance you still want to stand by your opinion let me know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    @Tusker
    No international cricketers had central contracts in the period 1976-1986.
    Which is one of the main reason why standards are better now ! Today domestic cricketers in India (and Eng/Aus) are contracted. They also get paid a decent amount and are guaranteed a pension by BCCI. This places Cricket as a profession on the same level playing field as any other profession which helps attract more talent. And the group of cricketers covered by this is far more than what the county system of 70s and 80s could cover.

    Most top players earned most of their income in county cricket, where the West Indians tended to be the best paid players.

    And it would have been very hard for a West Indies fast bowler to play injured. Consider at random the year 1981: the West Indies attack was

    Andy Roberts
    Joel Garner
    Michael Holding
    Colin Croft

    But the reserves were:

    5. Sylvester Clarke
    6. Malcolm Marshall
    7. Franklyn Stephenson
    8. Ezra Moseley
    9. Hartley Alleyne

    Why would it be very hard for a WI fast bowler to play when injured because of the reserves? It would actually be the other way round given the fact that they got paid only if they played !


    .... each of whom down as far as Moseley would be by far the best bowler in the world now.
    And I have previously proved you how Colin Croft (and others) could not be bowling anywhere remotely close to the speed of 140Ks. The problem here is you would rather believe in unsubstantiated stories than what you see with your own eyes right now ! While you may have witnessed some of these players playing in the 80s ... it was soo long ago that you cannot possibly recall all the action and make a side-by-side mental comparison with the present. If you can then I need that NZT too (google it).

    The only way to explain the situation you find yourselves in is that you are far too invested in the stocks of that ERA. You will find it hard to sell these theories to anyone who is practical , logical and facts bound as you will find it very very hard to substantiate your claims through any authentic means.

    To see what I mean by that go through this article : http://www.thecricketmonthly.com/sto...e-longest-shot it shows you the amount of research and analysis the author has put into that article to come up with the answers for who has the biggest hit. Thats the sort of rigorous analysis that I love rather than the opinionated baseless claptrap that some past era famous cricketers dish out regularly quite often driven purely by nostalgia and rose tinted glasses.


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

  35. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    And yet Fred had a brilliant record against Sobers, Weekes, Walcott, Worrell, Neil Harvey, Bob Simpson, Bill Lawry and Ken Mackay!
    I suppose you still don't get it and probably never will, but you just made a case for modern batsmen being much better than the ancient ones you hero-worship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketAnalyst View Post
    Did you see Starc in the last Test? He was consistently bowling over 150. That's just so much faster it's not funny. Even Mitch Marsh hits 140s.

    Just imagine what those guys in that video would be like facing Starc's 150km yorkers and bouncers..
    Remember, I'm the guy that doesn't thing that pace alone is anything to worship.

    And I have to say, Starc was bowling absolute garbage at Bangalore - I think he lost Australia the Test with his short legside pies. How many runs did Rahane and Pujara just clip off their hips down to long leg?

    Starc's left-arm angle makes him a handful even when he is bowling rubbish. But Sunil Gavaskar or Geoff Boycott or Ken Barrington wouldn't have got out to him in a 120 over innings.

  37. #117
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    @Tusker
    Being centrally contracted is almost irrelevant. How much money does Lionel Messi earn from the Argentine Football Association, or Luis Suarez from the Uruguayan one?

    Cricketers in the 1980s made a handsome income from county contracts. For the West Indies, the situation was the opposite of what you describe. Malcolm Marshall was not going to risk playing a home Test in April 1985 against New Zealand when half-fit if it risked his Hampshire contract. He'd have been delighted to let Courtney Walsh play instead.

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    @Tusker
    Being centrally contracted is almost irrelevant. How much money does Lionel Messi earn from the Argentine Football Association, or Luis Suarez from the Uruguayan one?

    Cricketers in the 1980s made a handsome income from county contracts. For the West Indies, the situation was the opposite of what you describe. Malcolm Marshall was not going to risk playing a home Test in April 1985 against New Zealand when half-fit if it risked his Hampshire contract. He'd have been delighted to let Courtney Walsh play instead.
    You are talking about the topmost Cricketers that were fortunate enough to get lucrative county contracts ... whereas Iam talking about Domestic cricketers many of whom will never get to play for their country. Without that layer being competitive you will never have a strong test teams

    I take it from your silence that you are happy with the evidence I presented for Thommo.


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  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    I suppose you still don't get it and probably never will, but you just made a case for modern batsmen being much better than the ancient ones you hero-worship.
    Spot on as always. The thing that @Junaids just simply refuses to accept is that in cricket a Bowler gets to dictates the terms to batsmen. He is the one that fires the shots. So the better the bowler the harder it is for the batsman to deal with his salvos. For a fast bowler speed is the basic ingredient. Without a minimum speed you ain't going to trouble most top class batsmen no matter how accurate you are. This is why the dibbly-dobbly medium pacer is a species that is extinct.

    So anyone that knows the basics of fast bowling will pick Starc 100 out of 100 times in comparison to Trueman just on the basis of footage. (Its another story if you want go by fairy tales .... but lets not go there )

    In anycase before you joined this forum about a year or so ago I had analysed the speeds of Frank Tyson a bowler from the same era as Trueman who is considered to be the fastest English bowler ( atleast as per @Junaids ). Yep faster than Trueman. Needless to say he barely touched 120-125K's. I will try and find those posts.


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  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Spot on as always. The thing that @Junaids just simply refuses to accept is that in cricket a Bowler gets to dictates the terms to batsmen. He is the one that fires the shots. So the better the bowler the harder it is for the batsman to deal with his salvos. For a fast bowler speed is the basic ingredient. Without a minimum speed you ain't going to trouble most top class batsmen no matter how accurate you are. This is why the dibbly-dobbly medium pacer is a species that is extinct.

    So anyone that knows the basics of fast bowling will pick Starc 100 out of 100 times in comparison to Trueman just on the basis of footage. (Its another story if you want go by fairy tales .... but lets not go there )

    In anycase before you joined this forum about a year or so ago I had analysed the speeds of Frank Tyson a bowler from the same era as Trueman who is considered to be the fastest English bowler ( atleast as per @Junaids ). Yep faster than Trueman. Needless to say he barely touched 120-125K's. I will try and find those posts.
    Interesting comparison between Tyson and Trueman. You should check out this playlist:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...mn6iREi9ZnyNho

  41. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Interesting comparison between Tyson and Trueman. You should check out this playlist:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...mn6iREi9ZnyNho
    If you look at what Trueman does to the bails, you'll see that he is bowling pretty quickly. While the final clip shows Tyson on a soggy, slow May wicket.

    I have heard Peter Lever talk about Brian Statham and I am the first to say that he couldn't swing the ball but I'd also add that he was quicker in his late 30's than Lever in his early 20's - and Lever nearly killed Ewan Chatfield.

    Lever operated in the 135 range, which we know because he was measured at 84 mph in the mid-1970's at Belle Vue. This shows that Statham was operating in the range of 140+K.

    But Trueman was unquestionably faster than Statham. Most who watched them said that he was around 3-5 mph faster than Statham, which would mean a minimum of around 145K.

    All I will say is this - I don't know a single English cricket lover who wouldn't give anything to have a new Fred Trueman!

  42. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    If you look at what Trueman does to the bails, you'll see that he is bowling pretty quickly.
    Seriously ? How far the bail travels after the ball hits the stumps is your way of finding out how fast the bowler is bowling ? Well then in that case you must rate Jadeja to be as fast as Trueman based on this footage :
    https://youtu.be/x8YWW1fYj_s?t=2m41s that leg bail has certainly gone as far (if not further) as the one in the Richie Benaud wkt in the Trueman video.


    More stumps and bails flying here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8D9EP54FTw

    And watch this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffwJ3cAfvs4
    That bail landed close to the keeper and went further.

    While the final clip shows Tyson on a soggy, slow May wicket.
    Previously I had analyzed Tyosns speed based on the footage from Tysons best performance ever which made him famous and the English media called him Typhon Tyson ... what was your response to all of that evidence I had posted ?

    I have heard Peter Lever talk about Brian Statham and I am the first to say that he couldn't swing the ball but I'd also add that he was quicker in his late 30's than Lever in his early 20's - and Lever nearly killed Ewan Chatfield.
    That right there is the biggest problem as to why you have all these very high opinions about past cricketers and their achievements that cannot even stand basic scrutiny today courtesy technology (just here above we have Trueman vs Jadeja in flying bails contest lol ). You believe everything that is said by every past cricketer and his dog.

    Why should you NOT believe you ask ? I will use your own example from this thread. You somehow were convinced beyond any doubt whatsoever that the slip fielders stood a long way away when Thommo was bowling (due to his speed). You tried to convince anyone else your chances of success would be extremely high if you told that to impressionable or like minded individuals. Even for the discerning skeptical types there would be no option but to believe you in the absence of video footage that is free and easily accessible. This is how it was just 10-12 yrs ago before youtube. This is how half truths got converted to facts and entrenched in peoples mind and propagated over many generations. Often the fish got bigger at each narration . This is a very natural human tendency.

    But what is surprising to me is how someone like you does not realize that human beings are notoriously unreliable (to put it mildly) when it comes to facts , accuracy, bias , truth and such things. Anyone who has clocked a reasonable no of yrs on this planet would instantly see red flags upon hearing such stories but not you !

    Lever operated in the 135 range, which we know because he was measured at 84 mph in the mid-1970's at Belle Vue. This shows that Statham was operating in the range of 140+K.

    But Trueman was unquestionably faster than Statham. Most who watched them said that he was around 3-5 mph faster than Statham, which would mean a minimum of around 145K.

    All I will say is this - I don't know a single English cricket lover who wouldn't give anything to have a new Fred Trueman!
    If you still don't believe my explanation above let me know I will do a analysis of Statham pretty sure he is another bowler who has exaggerated status.

    All our violent disagreements aside credit to you for some fascinating cricket discussions. I apologize if i come across as a heartless killjoy hardass but thats not my intention. Cheers


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

  43. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Seriously ? How far the bail travels after the ball hits the stumps is your way of finding out how fast the bowler is bowling ? Well then in that case you must rate Jadeja to be as fast as Trueman based on this footage :
    https://youtu.be/x8YWW1fYj_s?t=2m41s that leg bail has certainly gone as far (if not further) as the one in the Richie Benaud wkt in the Trueman video.


    More stumps and bails flying here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8D9EP54FTw

    And watch this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffwJ3cAfvs4
    That bail landed close to the keeper and went further.



    Previously I had analyzed Tyosns speed based on the footage from Tysons best performance ever which made him famous and the English media called him Typhon Tyson ... what was your response to all of that evidence I had posted ?



    That right there is the biggest problem as to why you have all these very high opinions about past cricketers and their achievements that cannot even stand basic scrutiny today courtesy technology (just here above we have Trueman vs Jadeja in flying bails contest lol ). You believe everything that is said by every past cricketer and his dog.

    Why should you NOT believe you ask ? I will use your own example from this thread. You somehow were convinced beyond any doubt whatsoever that the slip fielders stood a long way away when Thommo was bowling (due to his speed). You tried to convince anyone else your chances of success would be extremely high if you told that to impressionable or like minded individuals. Even for the discerning skeptical types there would be no option but to believe you in the absence of video footage that is free and easily accessible. This is how it was just 10-12 yrs ago before youtube. This is how half truths got converted to facts and entrenched in peoples mind and propagated over many generations. Often the fish got bigger at each narration . This is a very natural human tendency.

    But what is surprising to me is how someone like you does not realize that human beings are notoriously unreliable (to put it mildly) when it comes to facts , accuracy, bias , truth and such things. Anyone who has clocked a reasonable no of yrs on this planet would instantly see red flags upon hearing such stories but not you !



    If you still don't believe my explanation above let me know I will do a analysis of Statham pretty sure he is another bowler who has exaggerated status.

    All our violent disagreements aside credit to you for some fascinating cricket discussions. I apologize if i come across as a heartless killjoy hardass but thats not my intention. Cheers
    @Tusker
    We may disagree, but I love debating with you and I consider you to be an Internet friend! And you regularly influence my opinions.

    Dan Brettig has published a fascinating article today about fast bowling injuries being linked to the front foot no ball rule in place since 1963. I know that Bob Woolmer shared that view.

    I certainly do think that the actions of Trueman, Tyson and Statham need to be viewed through the lens of a different no ball rule.

  44. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napa View Post
    Interesting comparison between Tyson and Trueman. You should check out this playlist:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...mn6iREi9ZnyNho
    Thanks for making the custom playlist !

    Here is that original discussion on Tyson that I was talking about earlier where I did a rough calculation --> http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...y-at-age-of-85


    Sydney Bangalore Manchester Centurion Durban Jo'burg Mohali Colombo Dhaka Adelaide Kolkata

  45. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tusker View Post
    Thanks for making the custom playlist !

    Here is that original discussion on Tyson that I was talking about earlier where I did a rough calculation --> http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...y-at-age-of-85
    Most welcome, let me know if you would like something else

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