[VIDEO] On This Day: November 15, 1989 - Waqar Younis & Sachin Tendulkar make their debut in Karachi


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  1. #1
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    [VIDEO] On This Day: November 15, 1989 - Waqar Younis & Sachin Tendulkar make their debut in Karachi

    14 Nov: Final Test (200th Test vs West Indies in 2013)

    15 Nov: Debut in 1989 vs Pakistan, 24 years later in 2013 scored 74 runs on same day in his final Test.

    16 Nov: Final day on cricket field in 2013, And before 24 years in 1989 he took guard as a Test batsman for the first time on this day.


    Last edited by WebGuru; 16th November 2013 at 20:01.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

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    Scripted.

    Also bowing out with world cup, IPL , champions trophy titles in bag, winning in last first class match as well and also against Pakistan. Good things happen to good people.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelance_cricketer View Post
    Scripted.

    Also bowing out with world cup, IPL , champions trophy titles in bag, winning in last first class match as well and also against Pakistan. Good things happen to good people.
    Would be unfair to say "in the bag". Every member of the Indian team contributed to that world cup victory, IPL is not a very proud or memorable achievement (Let Dhoni tell you about that) and the Champions Trophy didn't have a final, so you can't really say "he had it in the bag"

    He's still a great player, but you guys seem to forget that your team had 10 other players too


    Mohammad Hafeez being considered a professor is indicative of the standard of Pakistani education

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuekboi View Post
    Would be unfair to say "in the bag". Every member of the Indian team contributed to that world cup victory, IPL is not a very proud or memorable achievement (Let Dhoni tell you about that) and the Champions Trophy didn't have a final, so you can't really say "he had it in the bag"

    He's still a great player, but you guys seem to forget that your team had 10 other players too
    And yet when he scored a century and his team lost, he was blamed by jealous haters .... the bolded statement went away evaporated in the air during such occasions.

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    a true legend

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    He got a fitting farewell, as the entire city celebrated an extraordinary career. What scenes were there in the stadium, literally so many people were crying. I again reiterate, that for many people of my age, Sachin was a part of our lives. Doesn't matter whether or not he was a great batsman or not, he was like a family member and you don't care if family is the best in the world or not, you just love them.

    Back in school and college in 90s, we had spent hours and days and weeks and months, discussing SRT. His every dismissal, every century was micro analysed, and talked about. Everyone wanted him to do everything. Even if he would score a century, people would discuss that he didn't hit a six, and he should be more aggressive. If in a match, he would hit 2-3 sixes, then people would say that he should be more careful as other batsmen in the team are fixers. We wanted everything, we couldn't do ourselves, in Tendulkar. When he got bowled out by Donald with that incredible delivery in Durban, pages and pages of newspapers were flooded with analysing his technique, and whether there is something wrong with his stance. In my first job with a highly reputed company, we had a 2 month training program, and the first thing our soft skills instructor told us was to be humble like SRT, as we had just begun our career, and we shouldn;t get carried away. There was this one match in Mumbai in which he hit a couple of sixes against Australia, and all of a sudden the entire atmosphere in our office changed. People just got so excited, and turned jovial as if they have personally achieved something. When people say that Sachin was not just a cricketer, he was a phenomenon in India, its not an exaggeration. Its really an end of an era, and the end of the career of India's favorite son.
    Last edited by pungi; 16th November 2013 at 21:49.

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    Other events related to these dates:

    14 Nov: Adam Gilchrist was born.

    15 Nov: Waqar Younis Test debut in same match with Sachin, Bradman scores his 100th 100 in FC.

    16 Nov: Waqar Younis was born, Famous incident between Dennis Lillee and Javed Miandad happened, Chris Gayle scores 333.
    Last edited by WebGuru; 17th November 2013 at 14:33.


    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

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    15th November, 1989: Two legends make their entrance [Waqar Younis and Sachin Tendulker]

    Two modern greats took their bows in the drawn first Test between Pakistan and India in Karachi. Sachin Tendulkar, aged just 16 years 205 days (at the time he was the third-youngest Test cricketer, after Mushtaq Mohammad and Aaqib Javed), gave little hint of what was to follow when he was bowled for 15... by Waqar Younis, who was making his debut at the age of 17 years 364 days. Waqar's first-innings figures (19-1-80-4) were more prophetic, being typically expensive and penetrative.

    Waqar bowled Sachin in first innings at 15 and got 4 wickets (Sachin, Kapil, Manjrekar and Prabhakar)


    Scorecard: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin...tch/63513.html



    Raise your words, not voice. It's rain that grows flowers, not thunder... (Rumi)

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    Waqar was better.

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    ^ How was Waqar better? One is bowler, the other a batsman...


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    They don't make cricketers like these two anymore.


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  12. #12
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    The top two talented teens in international cricket.
    Last edited by Buffet; 15th November 2014 at 00:41.


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    It is a real shame that we never got to see these two go head to head in Test cricket in the early/mid 90's. Would have been an epic battle. Legends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastandfurious View Post
    Waqar was better.
    How is that ?

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    There was no better sight in world cricket when Waqar was on song. My favorite cricket player of all time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by biggestdravidfan View Post
    How is that ?
    Batting is easy. Fast bowling is all athleticism and strength.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastandfurious View Post
    Batting is easy. Fast bowling is all athleticism and strength.
    That doesn't make batting easier lol. In batting you make 1 mistake and you walk back to the pavilion. That one mistake could be leaving a gap between bat/pad and getting bowled, playing across the line and getting lbw, or chipping a catch to any of the 9 fielders around you. Whereas if you're a bowler, one bad over, and you still have a dozen others to make up for things.

    Though this batsman v bowler logic is pretty baseless to begin with. Both are difficult arts to master in their own right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suleiman View Post
    That doesn't make batting easier lol. In batting you make 1 mistake and you walk back to the pavilion. That one mistake could be leaving a gap between bat/pad and getting bowled, playing across the line and getting lbw, or chipping a catch to any of the 9 fielders around you. Whereas if you're a bowler, one bad over, and you still have a dozen others to make up for things.

    Though this batsman v bowler logic is pretty baseless to begin with. Both are difficult arts to master in their own right.
    You're prolly a batsman.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastandfurious View Post
    Waqar was better.
    No he wasn't at all.

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    Batting it's you v 11, have you guys ever batted before with a 11 players sledging you? Helluva lot harder than bowling with your team mates encouraging you. Batting requires far more application and mental strength, which imo makes it the more difficult of the two.
    Last edited by Aman; 15th November 2014 at 08:43.


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    Waqar became a legend, SRT went onto become one of the GOAT..........


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    Did Sachin score a 50 in the second innings (when he got a bloodied nose from a Waqar bouncer and still carried on playing) or was it another match in the same series? Also what are the odds of two such greats debuting togehter? Any other such examples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    Did Sachin score a 50 in the second innings (when he got a bloodied nose from a Waqar bouncer and still carried on playing) or was it another match in the same series? Also what are the odds of two such greats debuting togehter? Any other such examples?
    Probably Ashes has witnessed many such contests, in fact, even better debutants..

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    Did Sachin score a 50 in the second innings (when he got a bloodied nose from a Waqar bouncer and still carried on playing) or was it another match in the same series? Also what are the odds of two such greats debuting togehter? Any other such examples?
    Dravid and Ganguly in Tests, together in 1996.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandeep View Post
    Probably Ashes has witnessed many such contests, in fact, even better debutants..
    Yeah, law of averages itself would suggest that to be likely. But better debutantes than Sachin and Waqar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tera Gawaandi View Post
    Dravid and Ganguly in Tests, together in 1996.
    Wouldn't include Ganguly in the same class as the players in this thread, IMO.

  26. #26
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    Not many occasions of two teens debuting together and going on to become the greats of the game. Like Saqs said, they don't make players like those anymore. Class personified!

  27. #27
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    I vividly remember this series, albeit listening on short-wave radio in England and reading "The Times" legendary journalist Johnny Woodcock's articles about it.

    Sachin was already known to us due to the volume of runs he had scored in junior cricket. Waqar was already known to us due to his pacey ODI debut against the West Indies (in whites) at Sharjah a few weeks earlier.

    They are basically equals.

    Tendulkar scored the most Test runs due to longevity, and is 20th on the list of Test batting averages.

    Waqar is 17th on the list of most test wickets, but is 11th when you correct for his superior average.

    Waqar had slightly more potential, but didn't quite reach his full potential first due to his two back fractures and secondly because when Wasim Akram was skipper at the end of the nineties he didn't want to select him.

    Deep down, I know that both are in the second tier of all-time great cricketers, beneath those who are the "best ever" in their chosen category, which are:

    Opener: WG Grace
    Middle-order batsman: Bradman
    Wicketkeeper-batsman: Gilchrist
    Leg-spinner: Warne
    Off-spinner: Laker
    Slow left-armer: Bedi
    Left-arm fast bowler: Wasim Akram
    Right-arm fast bowler: Malcolm Marshall
    Batting all-rounder: Gary Sobers
    Bowling all-rounder: Keith Miller

    I suspect that the only two of that Top Ten whom anybody would seriously question would be Laker and Bedi. It could be argued that there should be an extra "medium-pacer" category to include SF Barnes.

    Anyway, Tendulkar and Waqar were great, but obviously both fall short of this "greatest in their category" class.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post

    Tendulkar scored the most Test runs due to longevity, and is 20th on the list of Test batting averages.

    And this is what proves ageing doesn't make people wise. You may be 40-50+ but your cricketing knowledge is on par with a 15 year old Afridi fan if thats the way your thought process works.

    On one hand you're taking the credit away from Sachin for having scored most number of runs and hundreds due to longevity and on the other hand you're point out his 20th best test batting average, not taking into account the effect of longevity on batting averages of all great players. Tendulkar averaged 59.90 at his peak.


    You could be taken more seriously when you stop being so embarrassingly biased.

  29. #29
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    Srinath and Prasad were better bowler than Waqar Younis trundler

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelance_cricketer View Post
    And this is what proves ageing doesn't make people wise. You may be 40-50+ but your cricketing knowledge is on par with a 15 year old Afridi fan if thats the way your thought process works.

    On one hand you're taking the credit away from Sachin for having scored most number of runs and hundreds due to longevity and on the other hand you're point out his 20th best test batting average, not taking into account the effect of longevity on batting averages of all great players. Tendulkar averaged 59.90 at his peak.


    You could be taken more seriously when you stop being so embarrassingly biased.
    I'm not sure what you mean. Despite his longevity, Sachin never even reached 100 First Class centuries. So in what way did he make the "most centuries"? Surely you're not combining Test tons with ODI knocks where there are no slips? And if you are, why stop there? What about including runs he scored in his garden?
    Last edited by Junaids; 15th November 2014 at 14:54.

  31. #31
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    Incidentally, for the OP, even at the time nobody believed Waqar Younis and Aaqib Javed's ages. Both were at least three years older than their official ages.

    Nobody disputes Sachin's age, but Waqar's official age was absurd.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean. Despite his longevity, Sachin never even reached 100 First Class centuries. So in what way did he make the "most centuries"? Surely you're not combining Test tons with ODI knocks where there are no slips? And if you are, why stop there? What about including runs he scored in his garden?
    why not combine odis? oh don't behave as if odi's are like just 'hit and giggle' format and 'you don't care' blah blah....Odi's used to be a serious format back in 90's. sachin never reached 100 first class centuries because sachin has never played enough first class matches, he was busy playing odis and test matches since the start of his career. A career of 463 odi matches is no joke!, so why one would not consider it.

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    The sexiest bowler of all time. Truly the 'one and only'.

    He has become my favorite bowler ever thanks to YouTube clips, but I really wonder how it would have been to watch him at his peak live and witness those banana yorkers.

    Sadly when I started watching cricket 1997-1998, he was well past his prime. Still a class bowler, but not the ferocious juggernaut he once was.

    Like it or not, Tendulkar is the most iconic batsman of all time. Bradman had the stats and Richards had the swagger, but Tendulkar was simply larger than life. A batsman who everyone knew was an ATG before he turned 20 and was worshiped by not only India but the cricketing world. Calling him your favorite batsman isn't even cool because he is a god for billions.

    Right from copying his straight drives in the ground to writing 'MRF' on cricket bats, he was the batsman of the 90's.

    All things considered, for me and a billion others he is definitely the greatest batsman to ever live.

  34. #34
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    waqar was a phenomena when he burst onto he scene, pity due to his injuries he wasnt the same as he was in his early years But it shows the class of the bowler that he came back re invented himself and still held his own in the 2nd half of his career


    If pakistan cricket is to move forward they need to stop going back

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post

    They are basically equals.

    Tendulkar scored the most Test runs due to longevity,
    And when not a single test batsman could perform on that level for that long, then that definitely means his longevity was something exceptional and never repeated in the history of cricket and therefore something extraordinary

    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    and is 20th on the list of Test batting averages.
    I do not know why people still fall for this trap of taking averages of still playing players. At various point of time, Ponting, Dravid and lots of others averaged more than Sachin. Yet when they retired, they averaged less than him. Why not wait till some of thise "ahead" of him retire? Not to mention some in that list includes those playing in periods with inflated average both modern and during Bradman's time




    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Deep down, I know that both are in the second tier of all-time great cricketers, beneath those who are the "best ever" in their chosen category, which are:

    Anyway, Tendulkar and Waqar were great, but obviously both fall short of this "greatest in their category" class.
    You can claim all you like, but from the point of cricketing greats, past and current players, all experts, Wisden, etc, Sachin will go down and has gone down as one of the top 3 cricketers to ever grace the game. Your dislike is not going to change that and one poster Junaids not agreeing to most modern and past day experts, from Warne to Bradman himself, from Viv Richards to Sunil Gavaskar, from Wasim Akhtar to Richie Benaud, from Lara to Holding, current and past players, Wisden, all of whom consider him among the top 5 cricketers ever and arguably the second greatest batsman of all time, will not change anything
    Last edited by Indiafan; 15th November 2014 at 15:36.

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    I watched Waqar at his peak from 92-96. It was just an absolute joy to watch him. At one time he had the all time best strike rate ever, but declined after his back injury though he was still a very good bowler but not the devastating pace sensation he was.

    Best moments of Waqar was his bowling against England in the 92 and 96 Test series.

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    Indiafan, I admire your loyalty.

    But even in my lifetime there have been numerous better fast bowlers than Waqar (Marshall, McGrath, Ambrose, Wasim Akram, Lillee and Hadlee).

    And there have also in my lifetime been several clearly better batsmen than Sachin (Viv Richards, Graeme Pollock, Barry Richards, Garry Sobers).

    They are all greats, but it's just embarrassing when people try to suggest that Sachin is all-time Top Three material.

    Add in quick bowlers, spin bowlers and wicketkeeping and he would end up somewhere between 70th and 100th.

    Which is still a magnificent achievement.

  38. #38
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    It's sad actually we didn't see Waqar and Wasim vs Sachin at thier peak - talking about Tests during the 90s

    It would have been some contest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean. Despite his longevity, Sachin never even reached 100 First Class centuries. So in what way did he make the "most centuries"? Surely you're not combining Test tons with ODI knocks where there are no slips? And if you are, why stop there? What about including runs he scored in his garden?
    As i expected, your follow up argument is even more hilarious. Why are you so afraid?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelance_cricketer View Post
    As i expected, your follow up argument is even more hilarious. Why are you so afraid?
    It's not unusual.

    Pele tried to cement his undeniable greatness with the absurd notion that in his career he scored 1,000 goals. People actually believed this nonsense until a pair of British comedians homed in on it and discovered that Pele's 1000 goals included ones scored on the school playground!

    Sachin basically had a disappointing spell at Yorkshire and even though he had no national team commitments each summer he couldn't get another county contract in the 1990s. If anyone had wanted to employ him he'd have got another 40 First Class centuries and joined the elite with a hundred hundreds against teams which have slip cordons.

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    Why are Indians taking Junaids bait?

    He keeps saying the same thing over and over in different threads.

    Let's focus on the topic guys.

    Waqar was a GOAT material who lost his career due to injury (like Shane Bond who too was a GOAT material)

    Sachin...well don't want to talk. Sick of talking about him. We all know who he is.


    Truth is treason in an empire of lies.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Why are Indians taking Junaids bait?

    He keeps saying the same thing over and over in different threads.

    Let's focus on the topic guys.

    Waqar was a GOAT material who lost his career due to injury (like Shane Bond who too was a GOAT material)

    Sachin...well don't want to talk. Sick of talking about him. We all know who he is.
    Waqar ended up with 373 Test wickets.

    That day in 1989 when he made his debut only one man in history had taken more wickets than that - Richard Hadlee.

    So yes, back injuries stopped him from reaching his full potential. But he still had a magnificent career. The only other Asian fast bowlers in history with more than 350 Test wickets at an average of less than 25 (or 24 for that matter) are Imran Khan and Wasim Akram.

    In fact, all three have very similar bowling records and they are very hard to separate - they are simply the most successful Test fast bowlers that Asia has ever produced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Waqar ended up with 373 Test wickets.

    That day in 1989 when he made his debut only one man in history had taken more wickets than that - Richard Hadlee.

    So yes, back injuries stopped him from reaching his full potential. But he still had a magnificent career. The only other Asian fast bowlers in history with more than 350 Test wickets at an average of less than 25 (or 24 for that matter) are Imran Khan and Wasim Akram.

    In fact, all three have very similar bowling records and they are very hard to separate - they are simply the most successful Test fast bowlers that Asia has ever produced.
    fazal mehmood

  44. #44
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    I seriously considered Fazal Mahmood, and only omitted him because my Dad - who watched him - felt that matting wickets made it harder to judge him.

    But without him there would have been no Imran, Wasim Akram, Waqar, Shoaib, Asif and Amir. Pakistan would have become India.

  45. #45
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    Legends. My video tributes to these two masters.

    http://youtu.be/XwOrbFk6CRI

    http://youtu.be/YMaCZYwQJCY

  46. #46
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    Incidentally, the OP has managed to misspell both surnames.

    In 1989 the new Pakistan pace bowler was known as Waqar Younus. The spelling only changed when he suddenly and unexpectedly turned up at Surrey - former team of Younis Ahmed - the following summer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Indiafan, I admire your loyalty.

    But even in my lifetime there have been numerous better fast bowlers than Waqar (Marshall, McGrath, Ambrose, Wasim Akram, Lillee and Hadlee).

    And there have also in my lifetime been several clearly better batsmen than Sachin (Viv Richards, Graeme Pollock, Barry Richards, Garry Sobers).

    They are all greats, but it's just embarrassing when people try to suggest that Sachin is all-time Top Three material.

    Add in quick bowlers, spin bowlers and wicketkeeping and he would end up somewhere between 70th and 100th.

    Which is still a magnificent achievement.
    thanks for placing Sachin so high we are grateful to you.


    In cricket, my superhero is Sachin Tendulkar. He has always been my hero.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Waqar ended up with 373 Test wickets.

    That day in 1989 when he made his debut only one man in history had taken more wickets than that - Richard Hadlee.

    So yes, back injuries stopped him from reaching his full potential. But he still had a magnificent career. The only other Asian fast bowlers in history with more than 350 Test wickets at an average of less than 25 (or 24 for that matter) are Imran Khan and Wasim Akram.

    In fact, all three have very similar bowling records and they are very hard to separate - they are simply the most successful Test fast bowlers that Asia has ever produced.
    Ofcourse correctly the average comes to play if not you would had to name an Indian for that 434 wickets.


    In cricket, my superhero is Sachin Tendulkar. He has always been my hero.
    -Virat Kohli

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    The sexiest bowler of all time. Truly the 'one and only'.

    He has become my favorite bowler ever thanks to YouTube clips, but I really wonder how it would have been to watch him at his peak live and witness those banana yorkers.

    Sadly when I started watching cricket 1997-1998, he was well past his prime. Still a class bowler, but not the ferocious juggernaut he once was.

    Like it or not, Tendulkar is the most iconic batsman of all time. Bradman had the stats and Richards had the swagger, but Tendulkar was simply larger than life. A batsman who everyone knew was an ATG before he turned 20 and was worshiped by not only India but the cricketing world. Calling him your favorite batsman isn't even cool because he is a god for billions.

    Right from copying his straight drives in the ground to writing 'MRF' on cricket bats, he was the batsman of the 90's.

    All things considered, for me and a billion others he is definitely the greatest batsman to ever live.
    Didn't have the clutch gene that Lara and Viv had.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastandfurious View Post
    Didn't have the clutch gene that Lara and Viv had.
    His ability to perform under pressure is understated. World Cup 2003 vs Pakistan is one of the many examples.

    There are no loopholes in his batting no matter how hard anyone tries to make him look inferior to Lara, Ponting and co other than the fact that he could be a little selfish at times but when it comes to selfishness, no one could compete with Lara.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    His ability to perform under pressure is understated. World Cup 2003 vs Pakistan is one of the many examples.

    There are no loopholes in his batting no matter how hard anyone tries to make him look inferior to Lara, Ponting and co other than the fact that he could be a little selfish at times but when it comes to selfishness, no one could compete with Lara.
    He wasn't clutch no matter how hard you try. Played 200 tests but only managed 20 game winning centuries despite playing 123 tests in Asia. It's not just that, when a clutch player hits his stride you know it's game over for you in any sport. Tendu just didn't have it. Great accumulator, iconic but not a game changer. Still a top 5 batsman of all time because of his outrageous record.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastandfurious View Post
    He wasn't clutch no matter how hard you try. Played 200 tests but only managed 20 game winning centuries despite playing 123 tests in Asia. It's not just that, when a clutch player hits his stride you know it's game over for you in any sport. Tendu just didn't have it. Great accumulator, iconic but not a game changer. Still a top 5 batsman of all time because of his outrageous record.
    Throughout his career India had an ordinary bowling attack with Kumble the lone warrior and when Zaheer Khan emerged as quality bowler for a brief period, Tendulkar wasn't the same batsman.

    Tendulkar in the 90's was arguably the most complete batsman the game has ever seen and if you'd have given Pakistan or Australia's attack, he'd also have been the greatest match winner.

    No matter how hard you try, you'll struggle to name 3 better all-round batsmen.

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    Yet another thread derailed by unnecessary drivel. Sachin is an ATG. He is my favourite batsman. Never saw Don play. People rating Barry Richards over him are clueless. How the hell can you rate a guy who played FOUR tests over a guy who played 50 times that many? I can understand Lara, Viv, Punter or even Dravid rated over SRT but I refuse to rate Barry Richards over him regardless of how many runs he might have scored in WSC.

    Waqar was a highly entertaining bowler. I liked his go-for-broke attitude. Always looking for wickets and that SR in that age was something else. Wasim was a more skilled and artistic bowler but Waqar was the "Take one for the team" bowler. A true ATG. It's a wonder Pakistan didn't dominate cricket in the 90s with bowlers like Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar, Saqlain and batsmen like Inzi, Anwar and to an extent, Ijaz.


    2 possibilities exist: Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are terrifying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Throughout his career India had an ordinary bowling attack with Kumble the lone warrior and when Zaheer Khan emerged as quality bowler for a brief period, Tendulkar wasn't the same batsman.

    Tendulkar in the 90's was arguably the most complete batsman the game has ever seen and if you'd have given Pakistan or Australia's attack, he'd also have been the greatest match winner.

    No matter how hard you try, you'll struggle to name 3 better all-round batsmen.
    123 tests in Asia. Sorry kiddo. The bowling is just an excuse and I don't buy into the ** 'he wasn't the same in 2000s.' You don't lose your ability to cope pressure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastandfurious View Post
    123 tests in Asia. Sorry kiddo. The bowling is just an excuse and I don't buy into the ** 'he wasn't the same in 2000s.' You don't lose your ability to cope pressure.
    It's not an excuse. He simply did not have the support from the bowlers. India's bowling is generally rubbish but when it comes to making Tendulkar look like a match loser (exhausting all measures), it becomes decent and just an 'excuse'.

    He had a career threatening back injury in 1998-1999 and he was never the same again, kiddo. Do some research before making yourself look like a fool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    It's not an excuse. He simply did not have the support from the bowlers. India's bowling is generally rubbish but when it comes to making Tendulkar look like a match loser (exhausting all measures), it becomes decent and just an 'excuse'.

    He had a career threatening back injury in 1998-1999 and he was never the same again, kiddo. Do some research before making yourself look like a fool.
    I know of his injury but he was still capable of scoring tons. You don't lose your clutch gene.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastandfurious View Post
    I know of his injury but he was still capable of scoring tons. You don't lose your clutch gene.
    Tendulkar wasn't the same player. He became an accumulator like Amla which wasn't natural to him. He had to curb his aggression to survive.

    In the 90's in his peak, he had the swagger of Sehwag and the solidity of Dravid which is why he was considered an ATG by the age of 24-25 before he piled up the records and you cannot do that by playing match losing knocks only. He had an impact on the game few could dream of.

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    Since we are talking about tests,

    Sachin averaged 59 in won matches in 90s. In Asia too, its 59 (cos we won ONLY in Asia in the 90s).

    He averaged 62 in won matches post 2000 (and he wasn't even the same Sachin). Better team had a lot to do with this. If you don't believe me, see this.

    He averaged 78 in matches won from 2008-2011 when we had a great team with good bowlers.

    Links

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    Sachin post 2000 was mainly an accumulator.

    Pre 2000, as impact player as it gets.

    Lara at his peak was better than Sachin but he was inconsistent. In his peak, Lara was the greatest match winner but he used to go missing on a lot of occasions (who has the highest drop in averages when we remove dead rubbers). I gave you a cricinfo article with the most detailed analysis on this topic.

    As a pure clutch player, Sachin is good but not great. Definitely not great.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 15th November 2014 at 23:45.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Tendulkar wasn't the same player. He became an accumulator like Amla which wasn't natural to him. He had to curb his aggression to survive.

    In the 90's in his peak, he had the swagger of Sehwag and the solidity of Dravid which is why he was considered an ATG by the age of 24-25 before he piled up the records and you cannot do that by playing match losing knocks only. He had an impact on the game few could dream of.
    One can make the same argument for Waqar before his 2nd back injury or Imran's 6-7 years of unmatched dominance with the ball. Sorry but I'm gonna judge by his whole career otherwise his performance in 2003 WC doesn't count. End of conversation. Goodbye.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastandfurious View Post
    One can make the same argument for Waqar before his 2nd back injury or Imran's 6-7 years of unmatched dominance with the ball. Sorry but I'm gonna judge by his whole career otherwise his performance in 2003 WC doesn't count. End of conversation. Goodbye.
    Yes one can, Waqar was arguably the most destructive bowler the game has ever seen in his peak but after his back injury, he lost the venom in his bowling and reinvented himself as a different kind of bowler which was testament to his ability.

    At his peak, Waqar > Wasim, Imran.

    Goodbye.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    Since we are talking about tests,

    Sachin averaged 59 in won matches in 90s. In Asia too, its 59 (cos we won ONLY in Asia in the 90s).

    He averaged 62 in won matches post 2000 (and he wasn't even the same Sachin). Better team had a lot to do with this. If you don't believe me, see this.

    He averaged 78 in matches won from 2008-2011 when we had a great team with good bowlers.

    Links

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

    Sachin post 2000 was mainly an accumulator.

    Pre 2000, as impact player as it gets.

    Lara at his peak was better than Sachin but he was inconsistent. In his peak, Lara was the greatest match winner but he used to go missing on a lot of occasions (who has the highest drop in averages when we remove dead rubbers). I gave you a cricinfo article with the most detailed analysis on this topic.

    As a pure clutch player, Sachin is good but not great. Definitely not great.
    Tendulkar is definitely not the greatest clutch player ever, but the notion that he was a match loser couldn't be further from the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    Tendulkar is definitely not the greatest clutch player ever, but the notion that he was a match loser couldn't be further from the truth.
    I was in full agreement with your posts in this thread bro.

    Hence I posted some stats.

    I said Sachin is as impact as it gets.

    Clutch wise, yeah he wasn't great but good enough.

    Sachin as match loser is complete untrue.


    Truth is treason in an empire of lies.

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    Nobody called him a match loser. To be the greatest, you have to be the greatest match winner as well, still top 5.

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    Top 3 for certain.

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    Thank You Sachin!

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    A true legend.


    “I've never lost a game I just ran out of time.” Micheal Jordan

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    There will never be another Sachin.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    Ofcourse correctly the average comes to play if not you would had to name an Indian for that 434 wickets.
    Yes, that's why no-one could justify putting Kapil Dev on the same level.

    IN ENGLAND
    Kapil Dev 43 wickets @ 39.18
    Wasim Akram 53 wickets @ 28.73
    Waqar Younis 50 wickets @ 27.04

    IN AUSTRALIA
    Kapil Dev 51 wickets @ 24.58
    Wasim Akram 36 wickets @ 24.05
    Waqar Younis 14 wickets @ 40.50

    IN WEST INDIES
    Kapil Dev 35 wickets @ 23.11
    Wasim Akram 35 wickets @ 26.88
    Waqar Younis 24 wickets @ 24.83

    IN SOUTH AFRICA
    Kapil Dev 8 wickets @ 27.27
    Wasim Akram 7 wickets @ 39.00
    Waqar Younis 20 wickets @ 28.30

    IN NEW ZEALAND
    Kapil Dev 15 wickets @ 42.30
    Wasim Akram 50 wickets @ 17.18
    Waqar Younis 34 wickets @ 27.17

    In other words, Kapil Dev's bowling was unpenetrative in both England and New Zealand.

    Waqar's only under-par location was Australia, but he only toured there when he was a novice and when he was coming back from a fractured back, and then was excluded by Wasim Akram on his third tout.

    Wasim Akram's only under-par location was South Africa, but he only ever played 2 Tests there.

    Basically, when you compare like with like, Kapil Dev was a much more pedestrian and less accomplished fast bowler than Waqar or Wasim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leatherface58 View Post
    Yet another thread derailed by unnecessary drivel. Sachin is an ATG. He is my favourite batsman. Never saw Don play. People rating Barry Richards over him are clueless. How the hell can you rate a guy who played FOUR tests over a guy who played 50 times that many? I can understand Lara, Viv, Punter or even Dravid rated over SRT but I refuse to rate Barry Richards over him regardless of how many runs he might have scored in WSC.

    Waqar was a highly entertaining bowler. I liked his go-for-broke attitude. Always looking for wickets and that SR in that age was something else. Wasim was a more skilled and artistic bowler but Waqar was the "Take one for the team" bowler. A true ATG. It's a wonder Pakistan didn't dominate cricket in the 90s with bowlers like Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar, Saqlain and batsmen like Inzi, Anwar and to an extent, Ijaz.
    Sorry, but you are showing your youth (or maybe ignorance).

    Tests are the second highest form of cricket ever played.

    The toughest was the Supertests in 1977-78 and 1978-79. Ask anyone who was there - Imran, Ian Chappell, Dennis Lillee, the great West Indians.

    The astonishing thing about Barry Richards is that his record in the Supertests is basically even better than his record in official Tests. He averaged 77.60 the first season and 83.00 the second, in such adverse conditions that Viv Richards averaged 19.33 and Javed Miandad averaged 29.66.

    In the 1970s English county cricket was like a First Class version of IPL. All the world's greatest players were there - except Pollock - and we could measure them side by side.

    And trust me, from 1970 to 1977 Barry Richards was the world's greatest batsman (as Pollock had been from 1965-1970) and he was then replaced by Viv Richards from 1977-1988.

    Sachin was an all-time great, as I keep saying, one of the best 20 batsmen in 140 years. But just because you didn't see Barry Richards doesn't mean that Sachin was in his class, because I'm very sorry but he just wasn't. Barry Richards was so good that he made people like Greg Chappell or Sachin look like Vinay Kumar compared to Dale Steyn.

    (And no, it's now wonder Pakistan didn't dominate world cricket in the 1990s. There was too much fixing going on and not enough cricket. Some of the star players then made Asif and Butt look like choirboys, even Qayyum admitted that in and after his report.)
    Last edited by Junaids; 16th November 2014 at 07:15.

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    Waqar at his peak was the greatest spearhead to have ever lived. Had an insane SR that was never matched nor ever will.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Waqar at his peak was the greatest spearhead to have ever lived. Had an insane SR that was never matched nor ever will.
    Allan Donald.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastandfurious View Post
    Nobody called him a match loser. To be the greatest, you have to be the greatest match winner as well, still top 5.
    Do you even realize that cricket is a team game ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by biggestdravidfan View Post
    Allan Donald.
    Nah, check Waqar's SR during the early 90's.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Nah, check Waqar's SR during the early 90's.
    It's my opinion. Deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by biggestdravidfan View Post
    It's my opinion. Deal with it.
    You're a weird guy. First, you come up and challenge my opinion and now commit a cop-out when I do the same to yours, except with more proof.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Waqar at his peak was the greatest spearhead to have ever lived. Had an insane SR that was never matched nor ever will.
    Hard to refute this.


    Quote Originally Posted by La Haine movie
    Jusqu'ici tout va bien. L'important n’est pas la chute, c’est l’atterrissage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    You're a weird guy. First, you come up and challenge my opinion and now commit a cop-out when I do the same to yours, except with more proof.
    I never said that i disagree with you , did i ? I think Donald was a better bowler than Waqar . That's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by biggestdravidfan View Post
    I never said that i disagree with you , did i ? I think Donald was a better bowler than Waqar . That's it.
    Can you read? My original post was not about Waqar being a better bowler than anyone, it was about him being the best spearhead ever during his peak.

    And quoting someone while providing a contrary statement is considered disagreeing.


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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junaids View Post
    Sorry, but you are showing your youth (or maybe ignorance).

    Tests are the second highest form of cricket ever played.

    The toughest was the Supertests in 1977-78 and 1978-79. Ask anyone who was there - Imran, Ian Chappell, Dennis Lillee, the great West Indians.

    The astonishing thing about Barry Richards is that his record in the Supertests is basically even better than his record in official Tests. He averaged 77.60 the first season and 83.00 the second, in such adverse conditions that Viv Richards averaged 19.33 and Javed Miandad averaged 29.66.

    In the 1970s English county cricket was like a First Class version of IPL. All the world's greatest players were there - except Pollock - and we could measure them side by side.

    And trust me, from 1970 to 1977 Barry Richards was the world's greatest batsman (as Pollock had been from 1965-1970) and he was then replaced by Viv Richards from 1977-1988.

    Sachin was an all-time great, as I keep saying, one of the best 20 batsmen in 140 years. But just because you didn't see Barry Richards doesn't mean that Sachin was in his class, because I'm very sorry but he just wasn't. Barry Richards was so good that he made people like Greg Chappell or Sachin look like Vinay Kumar compared to Dale Steyn.

    (And no, it's now wonder Pakistan didn't dominate world cricket in the 1990s. There was too much fixing going on and not enough cricket. Some of the star players then made Asif and Butt look like choirboys, even Qayyum admitted that in and after his report.)
    You can paint it anyway you want. But we are talking about ATGs in Tests and ODIs and Sachin is the only one apart from Viv who was tremendously successful in both. We don't talk about ATGs in a series which is not even considered official. It may have been tough then but the fact is he didn't play enough tests. He didn't play in dustbowls facing the spin quartet. Now he may have been successful there or he may have failed. But unfortunately for him and for us, he didn't play. So, no he is not better than Sachin/Lara/Kallis/Sobers as an international player. He simply didn't get the chance to prove himself.

    If we start rating players on the basis of Supertests and other "unofficial" games, then why not brand current players as T20 ATGs on the basis of IPL/Big Bash performances? Why do you need international cricket then?


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    Quote Originally Posted by leatherface58 View Post
    You can paint it anyway you want. But we are talking about ATGs in Tests and ODIs and Sachin is the only one apart from Viv who was tremendously successful in both. We don't talk about ATGs in a series which is not even considered official. It may have been tough then but the fact is he didn't play enough tests. He didn't play in dustbowls facing the spin quartet. Now he may have been successful there or he may have failed. But unfortunately for him and for us, he didn't play. So, no he is not better than Sachin/Lara/Kallis/Sobers as an international player. He simply didn't get the chance to prove himself.

    If we start rating players on the basis of Supertests and other "unofficial" games, then why not brand current players as T20 ATGs on the basis of IPL/Big Bash performances? Why do you need international cricket then?
    It's a political aberration that the Supertests are not official and the inferior "official" ones from that time are.

    But Barry Richards spent hundreds of hours of his life playing top-class spin at Hampshire against the best spinners in world cricket at the time - Underwood, Intikhab, Bedi, Edmonds et al. You make a mistake if you choose to ignore that.

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