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  1. #2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Destroyer View Post
    Batting technique against the moving and short ball. If those foundations were laid when he was young, he'd be unstoppable. Right now, it's all natural ability he relies on.
    The short ball issue is blown out of all proportion. Not all batsmen are comfortable with it, but they play around it. Cook/Steve Waugh being two of them.

    Also the moving ball is an issue for every batsmen not just Ali.

    Btw, did you know Moeen played and practised daily in his back garden, which was soon converted into a pitch with netting?

    he's been brought up playing with his uncle and father since he was 11. He's been in the county game for almost a decade now, if not more.

    If natural ability is all that's getting him through then so be it. Other players would kill for just an ounce of that ability tbh.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  2. #2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    The short ball issue is blown out of all proportion. Not all batsmen are comfortable with it, but they play around it. Cook/Steve Waugh being two of them.

    Also the moving ball is an issue for every batsmen not just Ali.

    Btw, did you know Moeen played and practised daily in his back garden, which was soon converted into a pitch with netting?

    he's been brought up playing with his uncle and father since he was 11. He's been in the county game for almost a decade now, if not more.

    If natural ability is all that's getting him through then so be it. Other players would kill for just an ounce of that ability tbh.
    Mate, I'm praising him not diminishing him. He's so incredibly gifted that all he needed were the very basics, front foot movement and alignment of the head with it to be elite. It's not that he doesn't know these things but most likely had trouble implementing them because he'd already settled into a style of play.

    If instilled at a young age, ideally pre-teen or early teen years, they become the foundation of your batting and then you let your natural talent take over. Someone of Moeen's ability would've become impossible to bowl to. That's all I meant.


    A skilled hawk conceals its talons.

  3. #2003
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    What a corking player he is turning out to be. May not always have the sharpest numbers on paper, but adds tremendous value whenever he is involved in the action on the field.

  4. #2004
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    id like to see some more under pressure knocks and him winning world cup matches before rating.

    Scoring when your team has already laid a base isn't as good as chasing oe scoring when your team is struggling


    Babar Azam: Runs 8032, Average 44, Top Score: 204, Fav fan: CricFan2012

  5. #2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Destroyer View Post
    Mate, I'm praising him not diminishing him. He's so incredibly gifted that all he needed were the very basics, front foot movement and alignment of the head with it to be elite. It's not that he doesn't know these things but most likely had trouble implementing them because he'd already settled into a style of play.

    If instilled at a young age, ideally pre-teen or early teen years, they become the foundation of your batting and then you let your natural talent take over. Someone of Moeen's ability would've become impossible to bowl to. That's all I meant.
    But once again you bring the young age part into it. It's not about a young age. Sometimes players aren't good with a short/moving ball despite training at a young age.

    Kohli of all people struggles with the away swing on off-stump line.

    Cook has been known to struggle against the shorter ball for a few years now.

    It happens to everyone. If you have a batsmen that is good against the short ball and the moving delivery you'll have the best player in the history of the game.

    I know you're praising him, but some things aren't as easy to fix and you may think.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  6. #2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricFan2012 View Post
    id like to see some more under pressure knocks and him winning world cup matches before rating.

    Scoring when your team has already laid a base isn't as good as chasing oe scoring when your team is struggling
    He's scored under pressure in Tests and in ODIs. It's not as if England have been laying the groundwork for him to just out slog everything.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  7. #2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    But once again you bring the young age part into it. It's not about a young age. Sometimes players aren't good with a short/moving ball despite training at a young age.

    Kohli of all people struggles with the away swing on off-stump line.

    Cook has been known to struggle against the shorter ball for a few years now.

    It happens to everyone. If you have a batsmen that is good against the short ball and the moving delivery you'll have the best player in the history of the game.

    I know you're praising him, but some things aren't as easy to fix and you may think.
    Cook is one of the better players of the short ball.

    Their deficiencies are minor, his are major. Far easier to exploit while they can cover theirs in most cases. Cook and Kohli are susceptible against lateral movement but not to the extent Moeen is. No batsman is perfect but the greatest strive to perfect their craft and have figured a way to reduce that gap.

    I'm not saying if taught at a young age that all batsmen would become elite players of lateral movement. Most players won't for various reasons; temperamental, lack of physical ability, etc. But if the foundation is laid from a young age, you are in a better position to succeed. Moeen lacks that foundation but his natural gifts let him overcome those deficiencies, especially in white ball cricket. What I'm arguing and you're free to disagree is: had Moeen instilled those basic foundations into his game from a young age, he's so naturally gifted that he would become impossible to bowl to. Once again, I'm speaking very basic, front foot movement and head aligning with the front foot. Nothing exceptional like textbook techniques of Kallis or a Gavaskar.


    A skilled hawk conceals its talons.

  8. #2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricFan2012 View Post
    id like to see some more under pressure knocks and him winning world cup matches before rating.

    Scoring when your team has already laid a base isn't as good as chasing oe scoring when your team is struggling
    Did you even watch the last two games? He scored under pressure in both of them and in today's game, chased the target down easily, albeit a Duckworth Lewis target.

  9. #2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Destroyer View Post
    Cook is one of the better players of the short ball.

    Their deficiencies are minor, his are major. Far easier to exploit while they can cover theirs in most cases. Cook and Kohli are susceptible against lateral movement but not to the extent Moeen is. No batsman is perfect but the greatest strive to perfect their craft and have figured a way to reduce that gap.

    I'm not saying if taught at a young age that all batsmen would become elite players of lateral movement. Most players won't for various reasons; temperamental, lack of physical ability, etc. But if the foundation is laid from a young age, you are in a better position to succeed. Moeen lacks that foundation but his natural gifts let him overcome those deficiencies, especially in white ball cricket. What I'm arguing and you're free to disagree is: had Moeen instilled those basic foundations into his game from a young age, he's so naturally gifted that he would become impossible to bowl to. Once again, I'm speaking very basic, front foot movement and head aligning with the front foot. Nothing exceptional like textbook techniques of Kallis or a Gavaskar.
    I'm sorry but Ali's deficiencies are major? Goodness me.

    I really can't be arsed.


    "When You Have Eliminated The Impossible, Whatever Remains, However Improbable, Must Be The Truth!

  10. #2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal7 View Post
    Did you even watch the last two games? He scored under pressure in both of them and in today's game, chased the target down easily, albeit a Duckworth Lewis target.
    there was already a platform set, he could play risk free


    Babar Azam: Runs 8032, Average 44, Top Score: 204, Fav fan: CricFan2012

  11. #2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by CricFan2012 View Post
    there was already a platform set, he could play risk free
    In the previous ODI, he came in to bat at 210/5 and played at a decent pace for a while before going berserk at the end. Root got out soon and made it 217/6 so another wicket or two and WI could have wrapped up the innings for around 270-280. However, Moeen put on a good partnership with Woakes and then went berserk at the end. Not under tons of pressure but still it was a super way to finish the innings.

    Today was a tougher situation though. England were 192/5 chasing 357, the required run-rate was climbing with the threat of rain looming. Moeen and Buttler read the situation really well and got England ahead of the DLS par score before the rain arrived.


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  12. #2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    In the previous ODI, he came in to bat at 210/5 and played at a decent pace for a while before going berserk at the end. Root got out soon and made it 217/6 so another wicket or two and WI could have wrapped up the innings for around 270-280. However, Moeen put on a good partnership with Woakes and then went berserk at the end. Not under tons of pressure but still it was a super way to finish the innings.

    Today was a tougher situation though. England were 192/5 chasing 357, the required run-rate was climbing with the threat of rain looming. Moeen and Buttler read the situation really well and got England ahead of the DLS par score before the rain arrived.
    Exactly. I swear some fans just don't want to be happy. Both of these innings were pressure knocks.

  13. #2013
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    I actually think it is quite clear from Moeen's last 18 months of cricket that pressure does not bother him at all. Sometimes that is the problem of course, because there are occasions when he has played inappropriately in the context of the match and made a fool of himself. But more often than not his liberated daredevil approach has come off, and not only has this been a treat to watch, it has turned entire matches on its head.

  14. #2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherlock View Post
    I'm sorry but Ali's deficiencies are major? Goodness me.

    I really can't be arsed.
    Ali bats one down for his county and was considered for the opening spot early on in his career. He doesn't have any major weaknesses against the moving ball, however he isn't the best against the bouncers.

    Matters little for a lower-order batsman however. Just ask Dhoni or Afridi.

    Quote Originally Posted by CricFan2012 View Post
    there was already a platform set, he could play risk free
    Risk free? He hit a truckload of sixes in both matches so this makes no sense. I think you mean he could play without pressure which again makes zero sense because 1) Ali has played superb innings when the bats above him have been dismissed cheaply and 2) there was no real platform set. Had he been dismissed for a duck, England would have lost both matches.

  15. #2015
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    Well, he will move up to #7 now. A good chance for him.

  16. #2016
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    West Indies scores 280 in today's game and Ali's figures were exceptional: 10 overs, 36 runs and the wicket of Marlon Samuels. Moeen Ali is clearly very hand with the ball.

  17. #2017
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    Decent outing with the ball, this Ashes is the true test for all these english cricketers


    Babar Azam: Runs 8032, Average 44, Top Score: 204, Fav fan: CricFan2012

  18. #2018
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    Better all-rounder than stokes and will prove that soon

  19. #2019
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    Very good start from Moeen Ali. Looked like a proper #6 and lead spinner thus far and has handled the pressure better than most others. He'll be invaluable if he continues performing with bat and ball.


    لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله

  20. #2020
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    Thoughts @shaz619?


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  21. #2021
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    Typical English pundits. He was supposedly their best batsmen the last game and now a game later he's a weak link.

    The damaged finger clearly affected his bowling and along with his far from ideal preparation for this series it's really no surprise that he hasn't done too well. They need to cut him so slack seriously.

  22. #2022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boi View Post
    Typical English pundits. He was supposedly their best batsmen the last game and now a game later he's a weak link.

    The damaged finger clearly affected his bowling and along with his far from ideal preparation for this series it's really no surprise that he hasn't done too well. They need to cut him so slack seriously.
    Quite clearly referring to him as the weak link in the bowling attack.

  23. #2023
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    Moeen Ali isn't your premier spinner. If you are going to play him as a lone spinner then you are going to be in trouble. Yes he did well against India 3 years ago and bowled well at home but again he is at best a 5th bowler and England should look for a spinner who can actually pick wickets. The Performance of Nathan Lyon has been the difference between the two teams. Moeen hasn't been even close to what Lyon has been doing.

  24. #2024
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    Quote Originally Posted by giri26 View Post
    Moeen Ali isn't your premier spinner. If you are going to play him as a lone spinner then you are going to be in trouble. Yes he did well against India 3 years ago and bowled well at home but again he is at best a 5th bowler and England should look for a spinner who can actually pick wickets. The Performance of Nathan Lyon has been the difference between the two teams. Moeen hasn't been even close to what Lyon has been doing.
    Lyon is the best off-spinner in the world. Moeen is obviously no match for him. However, he's the best England have got. No point is saying that England should find someone else because there is no one else.
    Last edited by Bilal7; 7th December 2017 at 01:39.

  25. #2025
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    Having as much effect as Swann did. At least he won't embarrass England by running away.


    A skilled hawk conceals its talons.

  26. #2026
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post



    Thoughts @shaz619?
    A bit harsh to be honest, only a series earlier he was deemed by the same guys the one to watch outside the likes of Stokes due to his impact ability. Also, Mo is not 100% fit, options are thin and spinners in general find it tough in AUS; would have thought Swan of all people would be more sympathetic. One thing about Ali is, he has the fighting spirit; he won't quit like others did when they toured AUS. Anyhow, options are thin so Mo will be backed even if it means playing as a specialist batsman. More recently, he was made captain of the team scheduled to play the warm up game prior to the next Test match; @MMHS this could be a test for the VC role or they are grooming him and maybe down the line he has a small chance to replace Root like you wanted.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  27. #2027
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    A bit harsh to be honest, only a series earlier he was deemed by the same guys the one to watch outside the likes of Stokes due to his impact ability. Also, Mo is not 100% fit, options are thin and spinners in general find it tough in AUS; would have thought Swan of all people would be more sympathetic. One thing about Ali is, he has the fighting spirit; he won't quit like others did when they toured AUS. Anyhow, options are thin so Mo will be backed even if it means playing as a specialist batsman. More recently, he was made captain of the team scheduled to play the warm up game prior to the next Test match; @MMHS this could be a test for the VC role or they are grooming him and maybe down the line he has a small chance to replace Root like you wanted.
    More likely the fact that he's the only one from the XI playing because of his recent fitness issues and poor bowling form.

  28. #2028
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    Australia is known to be a graveyard for a lot of spinners so not surprised Ali's bowling, which is only his secondary role has not been successful. He needs to get more runs with the bat though.

  29. #2029
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitWicket View Post
    More likely the fact that he's the only one from the XI playing because of his recent fitness issues and poor bowling form.
    If you read my post I mentioned those but am not sure you read it all or the points made went over your head?
    Last edited by hadi123; 7th December 2017 at 14:46.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  30. #2030
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    If you read my post I mentioned those but am not sure you read it all or the points made went over your head?
    Was referring to why he's captaining.

  31. #2031
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitWicket View Post
    Was referring to why he's captaining.
    Perhaps but my points remain, if he wasn't Moeen Ali he wouldn't have found himself in that position to begin with; it's also an opportunity to impress, lets just hope Mason Crane doesn't fail him


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  32. #2032
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Perhaps but my points remain, if he wasn't Moeen Ali he wouldn't have found himself in that position to begin with; it's also an opportunity to impress, lets just hope Mason Crane doesn't fail him
    Alternatively if he'd bowled a bit better he wouldn't be finding himself in this position anyway .

  33. #2033
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    Quote Originally Posted by HitWicket View Post
    Alternatively if he'd bowled a bit better he wouldn't be finding himself in this position anyway .
    Touche rumour has it Crane bit Mo's fingers during his beauty sleep


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  34. #2034
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    Tbh it's good that Mo is getting to play the warm up, his preparation for the ashes has been far from ideal


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    Pretty harsh from Swann and Boycott (obviously). He just had the summer of his life in England, man of the series, man of the match awards, up for Eng player of 2017 with Root and Anderson. Two bad matches, one while carrying an injury, and you want to drop him?! A lot of unconscious bias on this issue by Engish pundits generally, especially evident here.

    Even if you want to play Crane or Leach, dropping Moeen and not Malan would not be smart. On batting alone, he deserves to be in the side based on recent form.

  36. #2036
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    A bit harsh to be honest, only a series earlier he was deemed by the same guys the one to watch outside the likes of Stokes due to his impact ability. Also, Mo is not 100% fit, options are thin and spinners in general find it tough in AUS; would have thought Swan of all people would be more sympathetic. One thing about Ali is, he has the fighting spirit; he won't quit like others did when they toured AUS. Anyhow, options are thin so Mo will be backed even if it means playing as a specialist batsman. More recently, he was made captain of the team scheduled to play the warm up game prior to the next Test match; @MMHS this could be a test for the VC role or they are grooming him and maybe down the line he has a small chance to replace Root like you wanted.
    I don't want to use that word, but Boyce isn't helping his reputation. He is picking the guy for not posting 400, who comes at 6 and still bowling 35+ tight overs. I probably can point 5 batsmen coming in front of him who are not justifying their spot as specialist bat. Lets go straight to numbers - everyone has batted 4 innings and none remained NO (so average in straight runs/innings); this is what Poms top 7 has done
    Cook - 62/4; Stoneman - 134/4; Vince - 102/4 (with one 83); Root - 142/4; Malan - 108/4; JB - 108/4; Ali - 105/4. On top of that, beard has bowled 63 overs (2/196), and has 2 catches - so, obviously Boyce hasn't looked at the numbers or he has seen other things than numbers first.

    Coming to the bowling - I think, I have bashed enough on ENG's fascination on "spinner, who can bat", so at least I'll thank Swan to call spade as a spade. In ENG team, I can't explain why Overton (Or Woakes) is there over Masson - if 3 can't do it, 4th won't. I was suggesting MA for next Pom Captain - I have moved from that. What Boyce is telling on record, it gives me enough indication of what'll happen if the guy is made Captain.

    I wonder, why these pundits are not talking about Foakes playing for one of Vince or Malan and Johnny batting higher.

  37. #2037
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    He’s still very hit and miss with the ball. In the summer he was outstanding vs SA but average vs the WIs. Before that he was superb vs Bangladesh followed up with a poor series vs India.

    He’s clearly not a part time spinner but he’s not quite a front line spinner yet either imo.

    Seems a bit unfair to specifically target him here though because several England players have underperformed in the Ashes thus far but they're not getting the negative attention Moeen is.

  38. #2038
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMHS View Post
    I don't want to use that word, but Boyce isn't helping his reputation. He is picking the guy for not posting 400, who comes at 6 and still bowling 35+ tight overs. I probably can point 5 batsmen coming in front of him who are not justifying their spot as specialist bat. Lets go straight to numbers - everyone has batted 4 innings and none remained NO (so average in straight runs/innings); this is what Poms top 7 has done
    Cook - 62/4; Stoneman - 134/4; Vince - 102/4 (with one 83); Root - 142/4; Malan - 108/4; JB - 108/4; Ali - 105/4. On top of that, beard has bowled 63 overs (2/196), and has 2 catches - so, obviously Boyce hasn't looked at the numbers or he has seen other things than numbers first.

    Coming to the bowling - I think, I have bashed enough on ENG's fascination on "spinner, who can bat", so at least I'll thank Swan to call spade as a spade. In ENG team, I can't explain why Overton (Or Woakes) is there over Masson - if 3 can't do it, 4th won't. I was suggesting MA for next Pom Captain - I have moved from that. What Boyce is telling on record, it gives me enough indication of what'll happen if the guy is made Captain.

    I wonder, why these pundits are not talking about Foakes playing for one of Vince or Malan and Johnny batting higher.
    Maybe they should drop Mo, then I'd love to see the response of these same pundits after another defeat. You're right, I suspect he wouldn't really get a chance to flourish with the arm band much rather have him focus on his game. In England's 1st innings in the last game, Overton top scored! in the second innings one batsman passed 40 runs! but we have a big Moeen Ali problem an A/R that is fundamentally the root cause of our poor performances


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  39. #2039
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    But Moeen is not in the mood for excuses. “You feel like you’ve let the team down, and the captain especially,” he says. “Lyon is bowling so well. Everything – the revs, the areas he’s bowling. It’s only been two games. I do believe I can bowl better.”

    Moeen shows us the injured finger. The gash – caused by the sharp, unfamiliar seam on the Kookaburra ball – has closed over, but the healing is still uneven, the swirling weals of skin clearly still raw. He will captain a second-string England side in a two-day warm-up game in Perth this weekend to get miles in his legs, but he will not bowl. But he adds: “I don't want to keep blaming the injury. I haven't bowled well.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/c...-a8099671.html


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  40. #2040
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    But Moeen is not in the mood for excuses. “You feel like you’ve let the team down, and the captain especially,” he says. “Lyon is bowling so well. Everything – the revs, the areas he’s bowling. It’s only been two games. I do believe I can bowl better.”

    Moeen shows us the injured finger. The gash – caused by the sharp, unfamiliar seam on the Kookaburra ball – has closed over, but the healing is still uneven, the swirling weals of skin clearly still raw. He will captain a second-string England side in a two-day warm-up game in Perth this weekend to get miles in his legs, but he will not bowl. But he adds: “I don't want to keep blaming the injury. I haven't bowled well.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/c...-a8099671.html
    He has always been such a good sport and has the 'warrior spirit' as Chris Eubank snr would say lol @KingKhanWC


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  41. #2041
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdullah719 View Post
    But Moeen is not in the mood for excuses. “You feel like you’ve let the team down, and the captain especially,” he says. “Lyon is bowling so well. Everything – the revs, the areas he’s bowling. It’s only been two games. I do believe I can bowl better.”

    Moeen shows us the injured finger. The gash – caused by the sharp, unfamiliar seam on the Kookaburra ball – has closed over, but the healing is still uneven, the swirling weals of skin clearly still raw. He will captain a second-string England side in a two-day warm-up game in Perth this weekend to get miles in his legs, but he will not bowl. But he adds: “I don't want to keep blaming the injury. I haven't bowled well.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/c...-a8099671.html
    Beware of the wounded tiger


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  42. #2042
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    He is being forced to play through an injury because with Stokes out he is the only quasi-decent all-rounder in the squad. I would take his performance levels with a pinch of salt at the moment.

  43. #2043
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    Doesn't deserve a spot in the team for the Aussie tour, but that's just my opinion.

  44. #2044
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    He is being forced to play through an injury because with Stokes out he is the only quasi-decent all-rounder in the squad. I would take his performance levels with a pinch of salt at the moment.
    Agreed. He would have done much better if he hadn't been injured twice on tour already.

    Hopefully, he'll be someway near full fitness for the third test.

  45. #2045
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    He can win them a Test match by himself, and they want to drop him lol
    How many other match winners do thay have in the team? Anderson, Broad and maybe Root

  46. #2046
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    Moeen is turning into a HTB, he needs to improve his spin
    Last edited by MenInG; 10th December 2017 at 15:47.


    Babar Azam: Runs 8032, Average 44, Top Score: 204, Fav fan: CricFan2012

  47. #2047
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    What makes you say that?

  48. #2048
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpressPacer View Post
    What makes you say that?
    Lyon has dismissed him 4 times out of 4.

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