Russia invades Ukraine


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    Russia invades Ukraine

    There has been reports that Russia have invaded the Crimea - in Southern Ukraine. Ukrainian officials report 2,000 Russian troops landed in the region. Pro-Russian gunmen have seized two airports there.

    The Crimea is a mainly pro-Russian part of Ukraine, which speaks Russian as their first language and mainly voted for the ousted President Victor Yanukovych, the pro-Russian leader.

    Protests broke out after Yanukovych refused to sign an agreement for closer ties with the EU.

    Looks like a fast moving and chaotic situation. Hope there isn't a bloodbath.
    Last edited by James; 25th February 2022 at 19:24.

  2. #2
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    Maybe Turkey should take a shot too.

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    should never have been part of ukraine anyway, shame it came to this, but if this is true, at least the decisiveness of the ruskis should avoid a drawn out conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    Maybe Turkey should take a shot too.
    What claim does Turkey have?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    What claim does Turkey have?
    The Ottoman Empire (Turkish Empire) ruled the Crimean region for centuries until the Russian Empire conquered the Crimean region in the 18th century.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Super-Six View Post
    The Ottoman Empire (Turkish Empire) ruled the Crimean region for centuries until the Russian Empire conquered the Crimean region in the 18th century.
    Yeah. But by that logic they still have claims on Serbia.

    It has a Russian majority. Most people are Russian Orthodox Christians and has been ruled by Russia for the last few centuries.

    And the only reason it isn't part of Russia was because the Ukrainian leader of the USSR gave it to Ukraine


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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Yeah. But by that logic they still have claims on Serbia.
    Not to mention all the Arab states and most of north Africa!

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    Apparently there will be a referendum in Ukraine on the 30th of March


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Not to mention all the Arab states and most of north Africa!
    It was just a joke about how obsessed Turkey and Russia were over the region. Last war was in 1854 iirc, which was only 160 years ago.

    If Turkey had a claim on those regions, there would need to be a continuity between the Ottoman Empire and the Turkey of today, ie Turkey should have given West Anatolia to Greece (which, IMO, made perfect sense) as the treaty of Sèvres would still be in action.
    Last edited by endymion248; 1st March 2014 at 16:39.

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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26400035

    The proverbial is really hitting the fan now.

    Russia's President Vladimir Putin has asked his upper house of parliament to approve the use of Russian troops in Ukraine, the Kremlin says.

    It follows discussions by both the lower and upper house to "stabilise" the situation in Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea.

    Earlier, the Ukrainian defence minister said Moscow had already deployed some 6,000 extra troops to Crimea.

    Kiev has accused Moscow of deliberately trying to provoke a confrontation.

    President Putin submitted the request "in connection with the extraordinary situation in Ukraine and the threat to the lives of Russian citizens", the Kremlin said.

    He asked for Russian armed forces to be used "until the normalisation of the political situation in that country".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    And the only reason it isn't part of Russia was because the Ukrainian leader of the USSR gave it to Ukraine
    Yeah and also there is another large minority, the Muslim Tatars who have long been anti-Russia due to Stalin's mass deportations in the 1940s. They were once the majority in the Crimea. There are also ethnic Ukrainians there who are loyal to Kiev.

    So there is a huge divide on ethnic lines there, and with Russia moving troops into the region we may see conflict break out along the lines of the 2008 Russia-Georgia war.

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    Lets hope there is no blood shed and people just deal with the problem peacefully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Yeah and also there is another large minority, the Muslim Tatars who have long been anti-Russia due to Stalin's mass deportations in the 1940s. They were once the majority in the Crimea. There are also ethnic Ukrainians there who are loyal to Kiev.

    So there is a huge divide on ethnic lines there, and with Russia moving troops into the region we may see conflict break out along the lines of the 2008 Russia-Georgia war.
    Crimean Tatars have declared in support of the new pro Russian government of Crimea.

    At least that is what a Russian speaking classmate of mine has said http://www.nakanune.ru/news/2014/3/1/22343247

    And outside of crimea there are protests in most of the southern and eastern provinces that are asking for Russian intervention.

    Putin has asked the Russian upper house for permission to send in troops


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    Lawmakers allow Putin to use military in Ukraine


    http://news.yahoo.com/lawmakers-allo...152934357.html


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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict View Post
    Crimean Tatars have declared in support of the new pro Russian government of Crimea.

    At least that is what a Russian speaking classmate of mine has said http://www.nakanune.ru/news/2014/3/1/22343247

    And outside of crimea there are protests in most of the southern and eastern provinces that are asking for Russian intervention.

    Putin has asked the Russian upper house for permission to send in troops
    There were Crimean Tatars that clashed a few days ago with pro-Russian protesters.

    http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/26/c...in-simferopol/

    An estimated 2,000 ethnic Tatars gathered outside the Crimean Parliament in Simferopol to show their support for Kyiv and a united Ukraine.

    There were scuffles with pro-Russian separatists who denounced what they called “the bandits” who had seized power in the Ukrainian capital.

    The health ministry said the body of an elderly man was discovered during the rallies. It said he had probably died of a heart attack. It’s reported seven people received minor injuries.

    The protests were held ahead of a planned parliamentary session. It was expected the issue of Crimea’s status would be debated but the speaker Volodymyr Konstantinov said the subject would not be discussed.

    Tatars were purged from the Crimean region by Stalin in 1944 during Soviet rule. An official apology with a call to return to Ukraine was given by Kyiv in 1991. They do not want the country to be divided.

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    The Russians will force a referendum. And of course a referendum on whether to join Russia whilst being occupied by Russia will be very transparent.

    Or maybe it could work out well for Ukraine - they lose a bit of territory that wasn't theirs for long, they still have a decent port in Odessa, they lose some truculent Russians, and they get access to Western markets. As a bonus perhaps they'll see Russia marginalised again so less foreign investment for Russia.

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    A Russian general has said that this is 'the most dangerous moment for Europe since the end of the Cold War'.

    The acting Ukraine president has put their army on full alert.

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    Apparently Russia's parliament have approved the use of military force in the Crimea.

    Russian parliament approves Putin's request for troops in Ukraine

    Published: March 3, 2014 - 2:09AM

    Russia's upper house of parliament approved on Saturday a request from Russian President Vladimir Putin to send armed forces to Ukraine's Crimea region, which has a majority ethnic Russian population.

    The actions signaled publicly for the first time the Kremlin’s readiness to intervene militarily in Ukraine, and it served as a blunt response to President Obama, who just hours earlier pointedly warned Russia to respect Ukraine’s sovereignty.

    The approval by the Federation Council came after a debate that warned of the apocalyptic consequences of failing to stop a fascist threat from spreading to Russia’s borders. The lawmakers direct considerable fury at President Obama and others in the West they accused of fomenting the upheaval in Ukraine.

    The vote was unanimous among the 90 members present for the debate, and it was clear that forces allied with Moscow were largely in control of the disputed peninsula.

    The region’s two main airports were closed, with civilian flights canceled, and were guarded by heavily armed men in military uniforms. Similar forces surrounded the regional Parliament building and the rest of the government complex in downtown Simferopol, the Crimean capital, as well as numerous other strategic locations, including communication hubs and a main bus station.

    At the entrance to Balaklva, site of Ukrainian customs and border post near Sevastopol, the road was blocked by a long column of military vehicles bearing Russian license plates. The column, comprising 10 troops trucks with 30 soldiers in each, two military ambulances and five armored vehicles, was not moving. Troops, wearing masks and carrying automatic rifles, stood on the road keeping people away.

    Some 60 locals, all apparently ethnic Russians, were gathered in a nearby square waving Russian flags and shouting “Russia, Russia.”

    Just a few hours earlier on Saturday, the newly installed, pro-Russia prime minister of Crimea had declared that he was in sole control of the military and the police in the peninsula and he appealed to Mr. Putin for help in safeguarding the region.

    The prime minister, Sergei Aksyonov, also said a public referendum on independence would be held on March 30.

    On a day of frayed nerves and set-piece political appeals that recalled ethnic conflicts of past decades in the former Soviet bloc — from the Balkans to the Caucasus — pro-Russian forces were said to have taken control of a government building in Kharkiv, and a crowd in the center of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine and pulled down the blue-and-yellow Ukrainian flag and raised a Russian one.

    On Friday, officials in the Ukrainian capital of Kiev had accused Russian armed forces of invading Crimea and violating Ukraine’s sovereign territory, and President Obama pointedly warned Russia against military intervention. On Saturday, officials in Kiev reiterated their objections but, for the moment, seemed otherwise powerless.

    There was no immediate new comment from Washington, where officials seem to have very limited options in responding to Russian military intervention in Ukraine.

    In his statement Saturday, Mr. Aksyonov, said, “Understanding my responsibility for the life and safety of citizens, I appeal to the president of Russia, Vladimir V. Putin, for assistance in providing peace and tranquillity on the territory of the autonomous Republic of Crimea.”

    “As chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, I make the decision to temporarily put the armed units and groups of the Interior Ministry, the Security Service, the armed forces, the Emergency Situations Ministry, the fleet, the Tax Service, and the border guards under my direct control. All commanders shall follow only my orders and instructions.”

    “I ask anyone who disagrees to leave the service," he added.

    The Kremlin, in a statement released to Russian news services, said it “will not ignore” Mr. Aksyonov’s request for assistance.

    And separately, in what appeared to reflect coordinated Russian responses after the Crimean appeals for help, the Russian Foreign Ministry issued a statement saying that unidentified gunmen “directed from Kiev” had tried to size control of the Ministry of Internal Affairs building in Simferopol.

    The Foreign Ministry said that “vigilante groups” trying to seize the building had been repelled but that the attack “confirms the desire of prominent political circles in Kiev to destabilize the situation in the peninsula.” Local officials said an exchange of gunfire had occurred.

    Elsewhere in Ukraine, there were signs of concern among business leaders over an effort by several European countries, including Austria and Switzerland, to freeze Mr. Yanukovych’s assets as well as those of his family members and other prominent associates.

    Although American officials did not directly confirm that Russian troops were being deployed to Crimea in violation of the two countries’ agreements there, Mr Obama, in his statement on Friday, cited “reports of military movements taken by the Russian Federation inside of Ukraine”.

    He said: “Any violation of Ukrainian sovereignty would be deeply destabilizing.”

    “There will be costs."

    New York Times/Reuters

    This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/world/russian-...228-hvfoi.html


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    I'm surprised it took this long. All these lines that colonial powers drew in the sand over the past couple of hundred years. Unfortunately nationalism burns for longer than that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    A Russian general has said that this is 'the most dangerous moment for Europe since the end of the Cold War'.

    The acting Ukraine president has put their army on full alert.
    A lot of the major countries in both Europe as well as the US will have to be extremely careful with how they respond to this, to ensure that it doesn't escalate significantly. If they do nothing they will be criticised for not doing anything, if they intervene too forcefully they risk a showdown with Russia where the moral high ground will be with the Russians.

    Bit like Georgia but with higher stakes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    A Russian general has said that this is 'the most dangerous moment for Europe since the end of the Cold War'.

    The acting Ukraine president has put their army on full alert.
    lol, so basically dont stick your nose where it aint wanted, and tbh i support that stance. regardless of the treatment of the tartars, crimea was historically russia and is populated by in the majority ethnic russians, no reason for the west to risk annoying the bear while its still playing in its own back yard.

    altho the china-japan-russia theatre could become on the most incendiary geo politcal hotspot of the coming decades. depends on the development of sino-russian relations.
    Last edited by ElRaja; 2nd March 2014 at 00:48.

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    It seems that the President of the autonomous region of Crimea asked for Russian help, which is why the Duma accepted Putin's request. How can this be interpreted as an 'invasion' or proposal for the use of 'military force'? Given that the majority in the region are ethnic Russians, or Russian-speaking, that vote was hardly a surprise. Surely the last thing the Russians would want is a protracted conflict on their doorstep, so that their statements regarding 'stabilising' the situation seems quite plausible.

    More embarrassing, and humiliating, for the US - and their allies in the West - is the fact that yesterday Obama warned of the 'costs' if Russian intervened militarily in Ukraine - and today, Russia intervene, though not in war-like manner.

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    I guess Ukraine may as well be prepared to lose the Crimea. There's no way the Seppos or the Poms or NATO will be stepping in if Russia decide to take it. Of course they will try to do it officially like via a referendum or "the will of the people" or something but they are going to lose it one way or another.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    The Russians will force a referendum. And of course a referendum on whether to join Russia whilst being occupied by Russia will be very transparent.

    Or maybe it could work out well for Ukraine - they lose a bit of territory that wasn't theirs for long, they still have a decent port in Odessa, they lose some truculent Russians, and they get access to Western markets. As a bonus perhaps they'll see Russia marginalised again so less foreign investment for Russia.
    Odessa could well come out in support of Russia.


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    There is nothing the US, UK and EU can do if the eastern and southern states decide to join Russia through a referendum and this is what Russia is basically playing for at the moment.

    There is nothing they can do stop Russia - the power of military might.

    Crimea is gone for sure, the question what about eastern Ukraine?


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    USA is already stretched too thin and wating too much many on wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bot places they should have pulled out long time go.

    The public is tired for being in a state of war, so would be silly to retaliate.

    For once let peoeple sort out their own mess no need to be big brother and all


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  29. #29
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    The hypocrisy of the USA has no limits.

    John Kerry - " You don't just, in the 21st century, behave in a 19th Century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped up pretext"

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    The Russians want influence but the more they threaten and bully the more each Eastern European countries want to run from them. Germany, on the other hand has no millitary but other countries are desperate to come into partnership with them. Maybe the Russians can learn a thing or two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    The hypocrisy of the USA has no limits.

    John Kerry - " You don't just, in the 21st century, behave in a 19th Century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped up pretext"
    To be fair had Obama been president then, there would have been no invasion.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    The hypocrisy of the USA has no limits.

    John Kerry - " You don't just, in the 21st century, behave in a 19th Century fashion by invading another country on a completely trumped up pretext"
    Yeah, I noticed that too. Irony-proof, these Yanks.....

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    Who'd have thought that in 2014 you'd still have a countey invading another country and forcing succession...oh Russia...well Putin, you never fail to dissapoint


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    That was a mistake to give crimea to ukraine,almost all of his people consider themselve as russians and are ethnically russians.
    By the way i always find quite amusing when europeans or usa make their statement like they are angels or peacemaker.

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    This is very very serious, Gazprom have threatened to stop cheap gas supplies to Ukraine which will have a knock-on effect for the rest of Europe as one-third of gas is supplied by Russia.

    Kerry's statement is the height of hypocrisy however the left are tying themselves in knots. They rightly criticise western interference yet fail to understand that the Ukrainian people do not wish to be a satellite state of Russia - look at Poland who have joined the EU and have a GDP three times as big as Ukraine's.

    Russia says it wants to protect Russian speakers - reminds me of Germany saying in 1938 that they want to protect German speakers in the Sudetenland. Fact is Crimea has been a part of Ukraine for 60 years and there is a sizeable 40% minority of Muslim Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians who do not want to be a part of Russia.

    Hypocrisy is shared by both the west and the anti-left types like Galloway who shouts until his voice is hoarse about Kashmiri/Palestinian self-determination yet fails to support the right for Crimean self-determination and fails to condemn the right wing thugs that rule Russia that can't stand the likes of him, clearly violating the borders of a sovereign country.

    Its not as clear cut as saying the Russian speakers in Crimea want to be a part of Russia either - many are still loyal to Ukraine.

    Let there be a UN-moderated referendum in Crimea and not one forced under the barrel of a Russian gun.
    Last edited by Markhor; 3rd March 2014 at 19:39.

  36. #36
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    Didn't the same thing happen in georgia

    Nothing will happen to russia with china behind it

    Russia does have the whole world by the balls at the moment, especially with their policy in syria etc


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    Its funny when americans or any western countries voice their concerns over other countries invasions


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    http://news.sky.com/story/1220272/uk...storm-deadline
    Wow this escalated quickly, they have given deadline now.
    Russia has delivered a deadline to Ukrainian forces in Crimea to surrender or face military action after troops seized key installations in the peninsula.

    Russia Says China Is Largely "In Agreement" Over Ukraine

    The ultimatum came from the commander of Russia's Black Sea Fleet Alexander Vitko, which has a base in Crimea where Russian forces are now in control.

    According to the agency, it reads: "If they do not surrender before 5am (3am GMT) tomorrow, a real assault will be started against units and divisions of the armed forces across Crimea."

    It comes as Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev discussed the situation in Ukraine with US Vice President Joe Biden by telephone on Monday.

    Mr Medvedev "declared that it is necessary to protect the interests of all Ukrainian citizens, including residents of Crimea, and citizens of Russia who are located in Ukraine," according to Interfax.

    He added that Russia would press ahead with plans to build a bridge linking Russia directly with the Crimea region - providing a vital transport link to the Black Sea peninsula.

    Mr Medvedev told deputies the two countries had signed "documents related to a project for construction of a transport corridor across the Kerch Strait" in December, when now-ousted Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych was still in power.

    The Russian foreign ministry said Nato criticism of its actions in Crimea "will not help stabilise" the situation in Ukraine.

    It said: "We believe that such a position will not help stabilise the situation in Ukraine and only encourages those forces that would like to use the current events to achieve their irresponsible political goals."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohsin View Post
    Who'd have thought that in 2014 you'd still have a countey invading another country and forcing succession...oh Russia...well Putin, you never fail to dissapoint
    At least not using pathetic excuses like some so called peace makErs


    لاا اله الا الله استغفر الله سبحان الله وبحمده سبحان الله العظييم

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    Didn't the same thing happen in georgia

    Nothing will happen to russia with china behind it

    Russia does have the whole world by the balls at the moment, especially with their policy in syria etc
    In Georgia Russia sent the US and its cronies a clear message that they mean business the Georgian leader appealed to the west saying that it was their war but the appeal fell on deaf ears.

    In Syria the Russians aren't letting the Americans pursue their interests and your quite right with the world by the balls comment.

    USA is daily getting exposed as a punisher of the weak but unable to even lift a finger against the Russians and other stronger powers.

    A real shift in world politics could be on the way. Putin is a strong leader, perhaps the leader of our generation. He isn't to be messed with.

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    Reports that Russia have invaded the Crimea

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    In Georgia Russia sent the US and its cronies a clear message that they mean business the Georgian leader appealed to the west saying that it was their war but the appeal fell on deaf ears.

    In Syria the Russians aren't letting the Americans pursue their interests and your quite right with the world by the balls comment.

    USA is daily getting exposed as a punisher of the weak but unable to even lift a finger against the Russians and other stronger powers.

    A real shift in world politics could be on the way. Putin is a strong leader, perhaps the leader of our generation. He isn't to be messed with.

    You do know Russia is a bigger human rights violater and a bigger hater of muslims than any other power right ?

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    Reports that Russia have invaded the Crimea

    Quote Originally Posted by asifp View Post
    USA is already stretched too thin and wating too much many on wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bot places they should have pulled out long time go.

    The public is tired for being in a state of war, so would be silly to retaliate.

    For once let peoeple sort out their own mess no need to be big brother and all


    Ummmmmm... Us pulled out of Iraq in 2011

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    Quote Originally Posted by PennOne View Post
    You do know Russia is a bigger human rights violater and a bigger hater of muslims than any other power right ?
    Emmm you do know that my post had nothing to do with Muslims.

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    Reports that Russia have invaded the Crimea

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Emmm you do know that my post had nothing to do with Muslims.

    I see you skipped over the human rights part.

    Your statement makes zero sense if you portray it as a sense of Russia being a real good moral power to counter us power . You say well Russia shows us who is the real power while US only attacks weak nations. What exactly has Russia done in the past week. Has it or has it not attacked a weaker nation and invaded their sovereignty something which you say US does too. So what makes Russia any different than United States it going by history it has also attacked weaker nations like Chechnya, Afghanistan and Georgia and now Ukraine. How is One nation invading another weak nation a better moral ground than another nation which also attacks weaker nations for whatever reason.

    A good moral argument is only that neither US or Russia should attack a weaker nation for foolish reasons NOT that Russia attacks a nation and yet US seems to be the only one with a fault for attacking a country
    Last edited by PennOne; 4th March 2014 at 01:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Putin is a strong leader, perhaps the leader of our generation. He isn't to be messed with.
    in the objective sense of taking power and holding on to it, no doubt, has transformed the rather embarrassing and crumbling remnants of the russian soviet state into a strong world player, all without even the slightest release of absolute control over such a vast country with so many potential players who no doubt have so much to gain from getting rid of him. in terms of force of will and power wielded he is certainly unmatched in current times.

    edit @pennone, i dont think dv is saying putin is great in a good and bad sense, but great in the competencies of leadership, i.e. wielding more power than any other contemporary leader i could think of.
    Last edited by ElRaja; 4th March 2014 at 01:55.

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    Reports that Russia have invaded the Crimea

    Quote Originally Posted by ElRaja View Post
    in the objective sense of taking power and holding on to it, no doubt, has transformed the rather embarrassing and crumbling remnants of the russian soviet state into a strong world player, all without even the slightest release of absolute control over such a vast country with so many potential players who no doubt have so much to gain from getting rid of him. in terms of force of will and power wielded he is certainly unmatched in current times.

    edit @pennone, i dont think dv is saying putin is great in a good and bad sense, but great in the competencies of leadership, i.e. wielding more power than any other contemporary leader i could think of.

    So was Hitler

    You dont fester on the issues of great leadership unless it is to use to good
    Morals, if you have good leadership to use for your own ideology which goes against betterment of humanity than you might end up being the best leader and the worst humanitarian. Even he German Chancellor spoke to Putin today and then told Obama . " he is living out of touch with reality" Putin is the kind of
    Leader who wont back down when he is against the wall, he may very well push the red button

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    Quote Originally Posted by PennOne View Post
    So was Hitler

    You dont fester on the issues of great leadership unless it is to use to good
    Morals, if you have good leadership to use for your own ideology which goes against betterment of humanity than you might end up being the best leader and the worst humanitarian.
    i have no qualms with anyone stating hitler was a great leader if stating their opinion about his leadership competencies, i for one think he made some poor errors which, speaking objectively, showed poor judgement in failing to capitalise on a weak and war weary europe, having said that imo he was an accomplished orator who knew how to motivate his core support group, without appreciating the strongest traits of those we may have differences we run the risk of underestimating potential enemies (in the case of global geo politicis, everyone)

    we can talk about whether someones influence is positive or negative, and i don't want to talk for DV, but i do not think that was what he was getting at, and i dont agree these two disparate facets of political legacy should be conflated.

    Quote Originally Posted by PennOne View Post
    Putin is the kind of
    Leader who wont back down when he is against the wall, he may very well push the red button
    i wouldn't be so certain, he is far wiser than you are giving him credit for imo, no one gets into his position in a cut throat country like russia without the ability to make deals and manipulate people without force.
    Last edited by ElRaja; 4th March 2014 at 02:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PennOne View Post
    I see you skipped over the human rights part.

    Your statement makes zero sense if you portray it as a sense of Russia being a real good moral power to counter us power . You say well Russia shows us who is the real power while US only attacks weak nations. What exactly has Russia done in the past week. Has it or has it not attacked a weaker nation and invaded their sovereignty something which you say US does too. So what makes Russia any different than United States it going by history it has also attacked weaker nations like Chechnya, Afghanistan and Georgia and now Ukraine. How is One nation invading another weak nation a better moral ground than another nation which also attacks weaker nations for whatever reason.

    A good moral argument is only that neither US or Russia should attack a weaker nation for foolish reasons NOT that Russia attacks a nation and yet US seems to be the only one with a fault for attacking a country

    I didn't look at the moral implications of such acts, merely analysed them as you would do a football match.

    The US and NATO's image of world police that they themselves have created takes a hit every time the Russians do something. AFAIK Russia has ( on the face of it) pursued a non interventionist policy and doesn't actively promote itself as a policeman. Thats the reason I used that example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PennOne View Post
    So was Hitler
    I don't understand the Putin-Hitler comparison here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElRaja View Post
    in the objective sense of taking power and holding on to it, no doubt, has transformed the rather embarrassing and crumbling remnants of the russian soviet state into a strong world player, all without even the slightest release of absolute control over such a vast country with so many potential players who no doubt have so much to gain from getting rid of him. in terms of force of will and power wielded he is certainly unmatched in current times.

    edit @pennone, i dont think dv is saying putin is great in a good and bad sense, but great in the competencies of leadership, i.e. wielding more power than any other contemporary leader i could think of.
    Yes. Russia was an absolute joke during the Yeltstin years. Putin has transformed Russia from a crumbling mess into something that looks a bit like a superpower again. He has put himself at the head of the Politburo 2.0, is ultra nationalistic and patriotic ( KGB past) and you can see how it pained him to see Russia bow down to the west.

    There was a decent article in an American newspaper showing Putins reading list. He seems heavily influenced by writers that talk about restoring the Russian empire and the way he pounced on an Ukrainian weakness to restore a former part of the empire was ruthlessly efficient.

    You have a strong ( both physically and mentally) man, a patriot, politically shrewd, backing of the armed forces and establishment, messianic vision and not boxed in by the limitations of democracy. The next few years are going to be interesting. He has already won 3 minor battles against Western allies ( Georgia,Syria and Ukraine) and will look to cement his legacy.

    If Machiavelli existed today the Prince would be about Vlad.

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    @Penn one - Hitler comparison + red button nonsense.

    I bet 100% you live in America.

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    Russians must be indignant that the western powers pulled off the ukraine stunt whilst russia was busy with the olympics......

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    In Georgia Russia sent the US and its cronies a clear message that they mean business the Georgian leader appealed to the west saying that it was their war but the appeal fell on deaf ears.

    In Syria the Russians aren't letting the Americans pursue their interests and your quite right with the world by the balls comment.

    USA is daily getting exposed as a punisher of the weak but unable to even lift a finger against the Russians and other stronger powers.

    A real shift in world politics could be on the way. Putin is a strong leader, perhaps the leader of our generation. He isn't to be messed with.
    I reckon you're giving credit to the wrong man, without the chinese behind him, russia wouldn't have a leg to stand on

    America are looking to go back to their isolational period as they were pre 1939, so that could be something that is also deterring them

    but yes, america have been fighting the wrong enemy for the last ten years, while their traditional enemies have got stronger


    "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles"

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    Re: Reports that Russia have invaded the Crimea


    I wanna see David Cameron try this lol . Putin isn't to be messed with .


    A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Yes. Russia was an absolute joke during the Yeltstin years. Putin has transformed Russia from a crumbling mess into something that looks a bit like a superpower again. He has put himself at the head of the Politburo 2.0, is ultra nationalistic and patriotic ( KGB past) and you can see how it pained him to see Russia bow down to the west.

    There was a decent article in an American newspaper showing Putins reading list. He seems heavily influenced by writers that talk about restoring the Russian empire and the way he pounced on an Ukrainian weakness to restore a former part of the empire was ruthlessly efficient.

    You have a strong ( both physically and mentally) man, a patriot, politically shrewd, backing of the armed forces and establishment, messianic vision and not boxed in by the limitations of democracy. The next few years are going to be interesting. He has already won 3 minor battles against Western allies ( Georgia,Syria and Ukraine) and will look to cement his legacy.

    If Machiavelli existed today the Prince would be about Vlad.
    Ah Yeltsin, poor guy was once so drunk he was stumbling in his pants in the White House with no clue where he was. Russia has definitely seen huge economic improvements from the years of mass unemployment and strife of the 1990s that saw troops fire on their own parliament.

    Putin has provided much needed stability and is a strong, decisive leader that's served them well. Russia is still too reliant on oil and gas though. Putin has helped stoke the rise of the nationalist far-right - who are Putin's stormtroopers and party toughs basically who have perpetrated with impunity many assaults on ethnic minorities such as Chechens, Tajiks, Uzbeks etc. The oligarchs have far too much unaccountable power. To say Russia have pursued a non-interventionist foreign policy is misleading.

    Sure compared to the US they haven't been as destructive but their attempts to ensure that the Eastern European countries are mere satellite states of Russia is EXACTLY the same kind of interference that people on here are quick to criticise from the US.

    Russia have stoked up separatist sentiments in Ukraine and its causing a bloodbath, with more Eastern Ukrainian cities like Donetsk and Kharkiv now being hijacked by pro-Russian militias. NEITHER sides are angels here contrary the usually tempting anti-west narrative that gets portrayed here on PP without people understanding the facts.

    Going back to Ukraine, its worrying who is taking power - some ministries have gone to the far-right parties and the Ukrainian Benazir Bhutto - Yulia Tymoshenko who has contributed equally in the ruining of the country as Yanukovych, especially when it comes to political gangsterism and corruption, has been released from jail. Ukraine are facing tough times ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    Yes. Russia was an absolute joke during the Yeltstin years. Putin has transformed Russia from a crumbling mess into something that looks a bit like a superpower again. He has put himself at the head of the Politburo 2.0, is ultra nationalistic and patriotic ( KGB past) and you can see how it pained him to see Russia bow down to the west.

    There was a decent article in an American newspaper showing Putins reading list. He seems heavily influenced by writers that talk about restoring the Russian empire and the way he pounced on an Ukrainian weakness to restore a former part of the empire was ruthlessly efficient.

    You have a strong ( both physically and mentally) man, a patriot, politically shrewd, backing of the armed forces and establishment, messianic vision and not boxed in by the limitations of democracy. The next few years are going to be interesting. He has already won 3 minor battles against Western allies ( Georgia,Syria and Ukraine) and will look to cement his legacy.

    If Machiavelli existed today the Prince would be about Vlad.
    I think I may have posted this earlier but I was in St Petersburg and Moscow in Sept last year and was surprised to find out that Putin isn't actually very we'll liked by a lot of both the older and the younger generation in Russia. You would have thought he would be popular, given the whole "making Russia strong again" thing he has going. The main reason they don't like him is because they (the people I talked to which is admittedly anecdotal only) don't feel their lives have got better under him. Like the cost of living in Moscow is crazy, $40 for a burger that would cost $10 I'm the US or UK. Many of the older generation lost millions in pension funds and savings when the Soviet Union collapsed so they despise Gorbachev and Yeltsin but they feel that under Putin the wealth consolidated into the hands of a few oligarchs. But they still prefer Putin to the alternatives because he is "the devil you know" (according to my Moscow guide). As for the younger people they are very Westernised especially in St Petersburg.

    I guess it's kind of like Ahmadinejad who most was very popular with Muslims outside Iran because he stood up to the US but in Iran he was eventually voted out because they felt he didn't really improve their economy and their quality of life.
    Last edited by OZGOD; 4th March 2014 at 06:50.


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    The US and NATO are a joke. They go around dividing and creating issues for nations all over the world.

    Love the Russia iv seen since 2013...with china behind It they should create their own version of NATO. Pakistan would be better off with them then a so called friend like the USA


    Alone we are Pathan, Punjabi, Sindhi and Balochi...together we are Pakistan

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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    I think I may have posted this earlier but I was in St Petersburg and Moscow in Sept last year and was surprised to find out that Putin isn't actually very we'll liked by a lot of both the older and the younger generation in Russia. You would have thought he would be popular, given the whole "making Russia strong again" thing he has going. The main reason they don't like him is because they (the people I talked to which is admittedly anecdotal only) don't feel their lives have got better under him. Like the cost of living in Moscow is crazy, $40 for a burger that would cost $10 I'm the US or UK. Many of the older generation lost millions in pension funds and savings when the Soviet Union collapsed so they despise Gorbachev and Yeltsin but they feel that under Putin the wealth consolidated into the hands of a few oligarchs. But they still prefer Putin to the alternatives because he is "the devil you know" (according to my Moscow guide). As for the younger people they are very Westernised especially in St Petersburg.

    I guess it's kind of like Ahmadinejad who most was very popular with Muslims outside Iran because he stood up to the US but in Iran he was eventually voted out because they felt he didn't really improve their economy and their quality of life.
    By all accounts he's incredible popular outside St Petersburg and Moscow.

    Those two cities are more liberal and westernised but the rest of the country is not.

    So using St Petersburg and Moscow to extrapolate political opinions on the rest of the country is like going to Melbourne to ask about views on the mining tax and extrapolating that to Perth. Which is what the Labor party did to its regret.
    Last edited by Convict; 4th March 2014 at 07:35.


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    Quote Originally Posted by corneredtiger85292 View Post
    The US and NATO are a joke. They go around dividing and creating issues for nations all over the world.

    Love the Russia iv seen since 2013...with china behind It they should create their own version of NATO. Pakistan would be better off with them then a so called friend like the USA
    ...wait, did US invade Ukraine or Russia....

    No one in US or Europe wants to go into war with russia. the Crux of the issue is Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The question is then, when people say US and Nato should not invade other countries but then say they love russia since 2013 because its invading other countries, I go like what?! whats the difference then between US and Russia if both invade for no good reason
    Last edited by PennOne; 4th March 2014 at 08:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Ah Yeltsin, poor guy was once so drunk he was stumbling in his pants in the White House with no clue where he was. .
    And yet most Americans consider Yeltsin more positively than Putin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by corneredtiger85292 View Post
    The US and NATO are a joke. They go around dividing and creating issues for nations all over the world.

    Love the Russia iv seen since 2013...with china behind It they should create their own version of NATO. Pakistan would be better off with them then a so called friend like the USA
    Don't know about NATO but what has US done excluding Iraq?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHorn View Post
    And yet most Americans consider Yeltsin more positively than Putin.
    Americans like a pathetic lap dog of a Russian president. News at 12.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by corneredtiger85292 View Post
    The US and NATO are a joke. They go around dividing and creating issues for nations all over the world.

    Love the Russia iv seen since 2013...with china behind It they should create their own version of NATO.
    Well, Russia had one of those between 1945 and 1990. Competition between the Warsaw Pact and NATO nearly resulted in the end of the world on at least one occasion and probably a lot more which they don't tell us about.

    We don't want a second Cold War. It was a scarier time to live in than the present.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PennOne View Post
    ...wait, did US invade Ukraine or Russia....

    No one in US or Europe wants to go into war with russia. the Crux of the issue is Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The question is then, when people say US and Nato should not invade other countries but then say they love russia since 2013 because its invading other countries, I go like what?! whats the difference then between US and Russia if both invade for no good reason
    Did I say support Russia because they are invading other countries ? I back Russia since last year because they are standing up to the evil goverments and organizations of this world


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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeed View Post
    Don't know about NATO but what has US done excluding Iraq?
    Ermm...Libya, Afghanistan and Syria to name a few


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    Quote Originally Posted by corneredtiger85292 View Post
    Ermm...Libya, Afghanistan and Syria to name a few
    Afghanistan would have never been invaded if the had given OBL . As for others US isn't even involved in those countries, you can thank Saudis in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeed View Post
    Afghanistan would have never been invaded if the had given OBL . As for others US isn't even involved in those countries, you can thank Saudis in this case.
    There are different versions of this
    Some say the taliban offered him to the u.s
    Others say they wanted evidence
    i'm not sure how obl been taken to america and being put to sleep by a lethal injection would have sufficed for american anger though


    Some say the russians are taking advantage of a thaw in u.s and saudi relations but i'm not sure how that exactly would encourage russian aggression unless saudi secretly have missles and nuclear weapons


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    Quote Originally Posted by LongHorn View Post
    And yet most Americans consider Yeltsin more positively than Putin.
    They say Yeltsin and Gorbachev were more popular in the US than in their own countries. For obvious reasons - they promoted the American cause of democracy and economic liberalisation.


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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    They say Yeltsin and Gorbachev were more popular in the US than in their own countries. For obvious reasons - they promoted the American cause of democracy and economic liberalisation.
    And because of the 1990s economic collapse in the former Soviet Union. People value having employment and an income over anything else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saqs on Steve Smith
    And who taught him to bat? Chris Martin? Is he the Australian equivalent of ....wait, I'm struggling to think of another useless player of his calibre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by corneredtiger85292 View Post
    The US and NATO are a joke. They go around dividing and creating issues for nations all over the world.

    Love the Russia iv seen since 2013...with china behind It they should create their own version of NATO. Pakistan would be better off with them then a so called friend like the USA
    Do you know USA and Russian relations history with Pakistan. Because of one's(USA) help a newly formed country that was deemed economically not feasible was growing at a growth rate of over 5% within a decade of its creation, developed an armed forces to deter its 5 times larger neighbor in no time and other played its infamous role in East Pakistan(bangladesh) issue, secondly the first one is also Pak's largest trade partner.

    World politics is not that simple as 'one good guy and other bad guy' scenario and neither is China "behind" Russia, the economic dynamics doesn't allow such clear lines(US-China trade). Though I agree future world will be more multi polar in nature but still US hold very strong influence in key technological and cultural aspects. Stable Pakistan can cash on lot of thing by playing wisely because of its location but the thing you are suggesting is probably not one of these.
    Last edited by amax; 5th March 2014 at 11:00.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by corneredtiger85292 View Post
    Did I say support Russia because they are invading other countries ? I back Russia since last year because they are standing up to the evil goverments and organizations of this world
    That's a bit naive, I think. Much of eastern Europe was under their totalitarian yoke for decades. There was no freedom of movement or speech. Criticise them and you got disappeared, or sent to a Gulag for 're-education'. Russia is no better than any, and worse than plenty.
    Last edited by Robert; 5th March 2014 at 11:23.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by corneredtiger85292 View Post
    Did I say support Russia because they are invading other countries ? I back Russia since last year because they are standing up to the evil goverments and organizations of this world
    Oh dear.

  73. #73
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    As wrong and dictatorial Putin is, The US has no footing when it says Russia broke international law by invading a sovereign country when the United States has itself broken the sovereignty of many countries in the past 20 years

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by corneredtiger85292 View Post
    Did I say support Russia because they are invading other countries ? I back Russia since last year because they are standing up to the evil goverments and organizations of this world
    In retrospect, Russia is about as evil as any major power. Remember this is a country which invaded Afghanistan and ready to take over Balochistan before Zia ul Haq begged US to intervene. This is also a country which has killed many chechan families. This is a country which invaded Georgia because it did not like the government installed and a country which has sided with Asad regime even though even bitter enemies Al Qaeda and US both think Asad is bad for the region.

    Compare that with the US where they invaded Iraq on suspicions of WMDs, on Afghanistan because they refused to give up Al Qaeda, went into Pakistan soil without permission, helped nato in removing Qaddafi in Libya and support the fighters against Asad. Invaded Vietnam where they lost

    The one difference being Russia has never done a positive military mission like freeing South Korea from the advancement of North Korea, taking military action saving millions of Bosnian Muslims and defended Kuwait when Saddam invaded.

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    Putin is a badass. He us really ****** off because west wants to move its sphere if influence a bit towards east.

    Irrespective of who is good or bad , its a calculated move from putin.
    If Ukraine wants to have closer ties with west , son better ready to lose half of ur country.

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  76. #76
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    Hillary comparing Putin to Hitler lol

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    Too bad Ukraine destroyed all of its Nukes in return for money from the west in the 90s.
    Would have been perfect deterrent to a Russian invasion if Ukraine had nukes now.

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    The hypocrisy in the media has really annoyed me .Russia supposedly invades a part of a country and there is uproar with news readers quitting on live TV etc .Yet when the west do the same no one bats an eyelid .

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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistanalltheway View Post
    The hypocrisy in the media has really annoyed me .Russia supposedly invades a part of a country and there is uproar with news readers quitting on live TV etc .Yet when the west do the same no one bats an eyelid .

    Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
    And invading its own territory too which it gifted to Ukraine after ussr broke.

    Thats y west is called peace hyenas.


    لاا اله الا الله استغفر الله سبحان الله وبحمده سبحان الله العظييم

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahir_dj View Post
    And invading its own territory too which it gifted to Ukraine after ussr broke.

    Thats y west is called peace hyenas.
    Crimea wasn't gifted to Ukraine after the USSR split though, it has handed over in 1954 and Russia SIGNED a treaty promising to respect Ukrainian borders in 1994 so they themselves accept its not their territory.

    You do realise that Crimea is only mainly Russian speaking is because Russia ethnically cleansed/deported millions of Muslims from the Crimea ?

    Posters on here are praising Russia for a military occupation that they would otherwise condemn and create a thousand threads if it was a western country, India or Israel.

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