57 Millions kids out-of-school who should be attending Primary school


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    57 Millions kids out-of-school who should be attending Primary school

    New data show that the world is still unlikely to fulfill one of the most modest commitments: to get every child in school by 2015. More than 57 million children continue to be denied the right to primary education, and many of them will probably never enter a classroom.

    I will use graph mainly in many posts rather than writing long posts. Pictures are worth million sentences.

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    Clearly, till 2005, south and west Asia made a huge improvement. Africa and rest of the world also showed some improvement but we have not made much progress after 2005. I am intentionally posting it on PP to highlight this issue because Pakistan has the second largest number of out-of-school primary school age kids. I am not sure if the scale of this problem is visible to all of us. You can't do much about the older generations or even for folks with 15-24 years of age but every kid should get opportunity to attend primary school.

    I will simply post few graphs in subsequent posts rather than writing much about it.
    Last edited by Buffet; 6th October 2014 at 10:01.


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  3. #3
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    First post has a graph showing 3 main segments. South/West Asia, Africa & rest of the world. The largest number of out-of-school kids are in Nigeria and that comes under Africa. The second largest number of out-of-school kids are in Pakistan and that comes under South/West Asia. We will take a quick look at the details of both region.


    South and West Asia


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    Africa

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    If we need to make a big dent on this then focusing on Nigeria and Pakistan is absolutely necessary. These two countries have around 16M out of total 57 Million out-of-school-kids. Outside of this, many African countries should be the prime target but situation has become difficult due to many countries cutting the sponsorship to eliminate this problem. See below - Almost every country has cut donation amount. Graph is only available for 2011 and compares it to 2010. I have not seen this data for later years.

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    You can see some of the data in this report,

    http://www.uis.unesco.org/Education/...hildren-en.pdf
    Last edited by Buffet; 6th October 2014 at 10:09.


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    What areas in Pakistan are these people mostly from? Unfortunately there will not be any improvement unless parents understand the value of education. Even more surprising that Arab countries are better off compared to Pakistan when it comes to child education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeed View Post
    What areas in Pakistan are these people mostly from? Unfortunately there will not be any improvement unless parents understand the value of education. Even more surprising that Arab countries are better off compared to Pakistan when it comes to child education.
    I tried to look the breakdown of out-of-school kids in Pakistan but don't see it up there on UNESCO Site. I found one thing but it's just the over all level. See below. I will post it if I find the breakdown for out-of-school-kids.

    ---------------

    While only 17% had never been to school in Punjab, 25% were in the same situation in
    Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and 37% in Balochistan.

    http://www.unesco.org/new/fileadmin/...FACT_SHEET.pdf

    ------------------
    Last edited by Buffet; 6th October 2014 at 11:19.


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    57 Millions kids out-of-school who should be attending Primary school

    Choro yaar, kuon aina dekhate hoo. Let's talk about how Islam is being bashed in the western media or how Indian Muslims are being prosecuted by Modi and BJP or about Israeli atrocities against the Palestinians or how Buddhist in Burma are massacring our Muslim brothers etc. Kuch khoon main garmi tu aye.
    Last edited by saadibaba; 6th October 2014 at 11:36.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeed View Post
    Unfortunately there will not be any improvement unless parents understand the value of education.
    Very true, the focus should be on making parents understand the value of education. Unless the parents are on board, no schooling initiative will bear fruit.

    Such a statistic will have huge implications for future generations, it then becomes a cycle!!

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeed View Post
    What areas in Pakistan are these people mostly from?
    Found a UNISEF report for Pakistan. It's a long one but I will scan it to present some points which may answer your query. I will suggest every PPers( specially Pakistani posters) should read this report. All of you are fortunate enough to get education. Here we are talking about child not getting primary education.

    ----------------------

    • More girls than boys are out of school.
    • Poorer households are more likely than richer households to have children out of school.
    • Children in rural areas are more likely than children in urban areas to be out of school.
    • Balochi-speaking children lag behind other children in all key indicators for education.
    • Children engaged in child labour are the most likely to be out of school.



    http://www.unicef.org/pakistan/OSC_U...ual_Report.pdf


    ----------------------------------------------

    From the same report, we can see a graph for each province.


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    Punjab

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    Sindh

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    Last edited by Buffet; 6th October 2014 at 12:25.


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  15. #14
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    Khyber Pakhtunkhwa

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    Last edited by Buffet; 6th October 2014 at 12:26.


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  16. #15
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    Balochistan

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    Last edited by Buffet; 6th October 2014 at 12:26.


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  17. #16
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    Figure shows the Peak drop out rate in Pakistan at national level. 40% kids drop out at grade 5. The second highest drop out happens at grade 8. Coincides with completion of primary and lower secondary level.

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    Guys/Gals - I intentionally took these graphs and put it out here because many of you may not read a long report by UNICEF. For anyone interested, here is the link which talks only about Pakistan.

    http://www.unicef.org/pakistan/OSC_U...ual_Report.pdf
    Last edited by Buffet; 6th October 2014 at 12:27.


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  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
    Such a statistic will have huge implications for future generations, it then becomes a cycle!!
    That's why we should focus on out-of-school primary school age kids. Over all literacy rate is one thing but if we can get every kid in world a primary education then it gives them some chance to succeed in life and then subsequent generations will automatically pick up education. We are not talking about some ambitious goal here. We are not talkign about **, MS or some higher degrees. We are simply talking about kids in primary school. Goal was to reduce this figure to close to zero by 2015 but we still have around 57 Millions kids at primary school age who are out of school. Til 2005, we were on track but not much improvement after 2005.
    Last edited by Buffet; 6th October 2014 at 12:21.


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    One of the difficulties, I have read, is convincing the parents of these children about the benefits of education. Many of these children engage in (child) labor and their parents need to be compensated with the loss of daily income. Also because of the unemployment issue in Pakistan, many parents want their children to work under a mechanic or other technical people because they think that would be much more useful for them.

    Better and stricter educational standards in govt. schools and laws pertaining to punishing child labor and preventing children from going to primary school (esp. girls) should also be implemented to improve the situation

  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by shakil View Post
    One of the difficulties, I have read, is convincing the parents of these children about the benefits of education. Many of these children engage in (child) labor and their parents need to be compensated with the loss of daily income. Also because of the unemployment issue in Pakistan, many parents want their children to work under a mechanic or other technical people because they think that would be much more useful for them.

    Better and stricter educational standards in govt. schools and laws pertaining to punishing child labor and preventing children from going to primary school (esp. girls) should also be implemented to improve the situation
    Child labor is surely a huge issue because around 85% of kids in child labor don't go to school. I would think that the exact same situation should exist in many other developing countries. Pakistani government should find out how they are tackling it and implement the same steps in Pakistan. Not everything may be applicable but I would expect that the simialr things should be applicable in countries having per capita income and unemployment rate in the same range.
    Last edited by Buffet; 6th October 2014 at 21:14.


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  21. #20
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    What is the solution? please head to www.tcfusa.org and sponsor a kid or two ...


  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnoman15 View Post
    What is the solution? please head to www.tcfusa.org and sponsor a kid or two ...
    If around 10% of folks in Pakistan spend time or take responsibility to educate one kid then this problem will disappear. Sounds good in theory but it's extremely difficult to get this kind of scale in any country. I mean, you will always have some folks doing it. In fact, I remember few posters in PP itself doing it. I forgot the name but I do remember reading about it.

    Anyway, it's a great idea. Everything will help.


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  23. #22
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    So basically most Pak kids leave school by Age 17. High School is the limit for most especially Girls.

  24. #23
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    Education is and should be the top priority for any country.

    I sponsor one girl child for a year of school education through Nanhi kali, Since i have started my job,
    Its nice when they send report card of the girl you sponsor!

    http://www.nanhikali.org/

  25. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by anakin View Post
    Education is and should be the top priority for any country.

    I sponsor one girl child for a year of school education through Nanhi kali, Since i have started my job,
    Its nice when they send report card of the girl you sponsor!

    http://www.nanhikali.org/
    Great job. All of us should do something and eventually we will have no out-of-school kids anywhere.


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    Nigeria has the largest number of children globally who miss school as increased insecurity in the north shuts down centers and prevents access, according to the United Nations.

    Out of 10.5 million children who aren’t attending school in the nation, 60 percent are girls who live in the north, Unicef’s Nigeria office said in an e-mailed statement today. Violence and security challenges, particularly in the northeast, mean parents have withdrawn their daughters from classes or are unwilling to enroll them, while many schools have closed down, Unicef said.

    Boko Haram, the Islamist militant group whose insurgency against Nigeria’s government has killed thousands of people over the past five years in the mainly Muslim north, abducted more than 200 girls from a school in the northeastern town of Chibok in April.

    Almost one out of three primary-age and one in four junior-age children are out of school in Africa’s most populous nation of about 170 million, according to Unicef. Schools which remain open in the northeast are often overcrowded, understaffed and under resourced, it said.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...school-un.html

    --------------------------


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    66% of children in Balochistan do not go to school

    QUETTA: At least 66% of children, between the ages of five and 16, in Balochistan, do not go to school, Alif Ailaan, a non-profit organisation working on education in the province, disclosed on Saturday. During a press conference, held by the organisation in Quetta, it was revealed that in Balochistan, 1.8 million out of 2.7 million children are without any kind of education.

    “The dropout rate at primary schools is very alarming in Balochistan. Around 865,337 children enroll at primary schools and the rate increases to 191,300 when they reach middle school,” Sajid Hussain Changezi, an Alif Ailaan manager, told reporters. Changezi added that 57% of children leave school without completing their education at the primary level.

    During the conference, representatives of the nonprofit organisation urged the government to pay attention to the state of girls’ education in the province.Furthermore, state-run schools in Balochistan are in precarious condition.

    “There are a total 12,347 state-run schools in Balochistan, of which merely 6% are high schools. At least 76% of school-going children are enrolled at state-run schools, while 19% are studying at private schools and 5% are enrolled at religious seminaries,” Changezi said.

    The organisation said there are 216 schools which are not functional and the quality of education is poor as compared to other provinces. Not a single district of Balochistan has topped any ranking in Pakistan when it comes to education. More than 14% of teachers do not attend the schools but draw salaries, while 37% schools are with single rooms.

    In Barkhan district, 80% of the schools are with single rooms. The speakers in the seminar urged to pay more attention on child education in Balochistan, which is lagging far behind other provinces.
    Malala Yousafzai should also play her role in this regard and we are expecting that she will help the girls of Balochistan too,” said Dr Nashnas Lehri, an official of Alif Ailaan.

    Balochistan Chief Minister Dr Malik has said his government does not have enough resources to overcome the challenges in the education sector. He also said his government needs Rs63 billion to increase enrolment in schools.

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/773894/6...-go-to-school/


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    Baluchistan is probably the least developed province in Pakistan no matter, what field and yet its the biggest one. I don't know, why that province has been ignored.

  29. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saeed View Post
    Baluchistan is probably the least developed province in Pakistan no matter, what field and yet its the biggest one. I don't know, why that province has been ignored.
    I don't know much about it but if I have to guess then it may related to not having enough votes to make a difference. I meant, political parties will focus more on areas with dense population, which brings more votes. I don't know much about Pakistan but I saying this based on what I have seen in some other parts of the world. Having bigger landmass is not relevant in many cases.


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  30. #29
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    How are these figures collated? Does it include children who don't attend formal schools but attend religious madrassah's instead? Muslims are meant to be able to read the Qu'ran in it's original Arabic version, and hence most kids start being taught the basics of Arabic and how to read the Qu'ran usually even before they start primary school, either at home or at the local mosque. Does this teaching fall in the realm of 'primary education', and is this reflected in any way within the figures reported above?

    Whilst not neccesarily disputing the figures quoted by Buffet, I strongly suspect that the points I've mentioned are not taken into account in any way whatsoever vis-a-vis the data for Pakistan and Nigeria, not even in the form of a clarification.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 21st October 2014 at 05:06.


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  31. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    How are these figures collated? Does it include children who don't attend formal schools but attend religious madrassah's instead? Muslims are meant to be able to read the Qu'ran in it's original Arabic version, and hence most kids start being taught the basics of Arabic and how to read the Qu'ran usually even before they start primary school, either at home or at the local mosque. Does this teaching fall in the realm of 'primary education', and is this reflected in any way within the figures reported above?

    Whilst not neccesarily disputing the figures quoted by Buffet, I strongly suspect that the points I've mentioned are not taken into account in any way whatsoever vis-a-vis the data for Pakistan and Nigeria, not even in the form of a clarification.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On Page 3 of UNICEF report for Pakistan:

    Deeni madrasahs also provide education. The main emphasis of madrasah education is on Islamic teachings. However, a majority of the madrasahs also provide formal education. Three percent are public sector and 97 percent are private. Male enrolment is 62 percent and female enrolment is 38 percent (AEPAM, 2009). Deeni madrasahs are included in the formal education system and accounted for in school census data.

    http://www.unicef.org/pakistan/OSC_U...ual_Report.pdf

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I haven't found the detailed report for Nigeria but I think their methodology may be similar.
    Last edited by Buffet; 21st October 2014 at 06:06.


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    Damn..
    Pakistan;s next generation is screwed and I really dont see a way out of the mess we are in for a good few decades

  33. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Damn..
    Pakistan;s next generation is screwed and I really dont see a way out of the mess we are in for a good few decades
    Few decades? That's being too pessimistic. I think situation will look much better in this front after 10-15 years.

    I don't have the graph handy here but per capita foreign help from outside for education is very low in Pakistan. Aid is for useless stuff. Not useless exactly but you get my drift. It was much higher for countries like Bangladesh and they have improved in this regard. Some resource needs to be put and situation can change in 10-15 years. At least things can start looking much better.


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  34. #33
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    It's very sad to see that graph has stangnated and numbers are not really going down at a good clip in recent years. Not providing kids with basic education is not less than a collective crime by society. Education is the biggest equalizer. Keeping a big chunk of our next generation uneducated is going to harm us.

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  36. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
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    Pretty sobering statistics here. Besides war torn countries like Syria, Pakistan is in the bottom of the barrel here. Forget competing for olympic medals, forget competing with fighter jets or missiles, and forget competing for how much land you hold. This is the stat upon which countries should compete

  37. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    Pretty sobering statistics here. Besides war torn countries like Syria, Pakistan is in the bottom of the barrel here. Forget competing for olympic medals, forget competing with fighter jets or missiles, and forget competing for how much land you hold. This is the stat upon which countries should compete
    Only 6-7 replies outside of thread starter. Countries are not going to compete on such metrics.


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    There are 25 million out of school children in Pakistan which represents a whooping 44% of school-age students. In other words, almost 5 out of 100 Pakistani children do not go to school. The main reasons are a lack of schooling infrastructure, poverty, poor law and order and cultural obstacles.

    The situation is especially even poor for girls due to a mix of cultural and social norms. Only 15% of girls make it beyond grade 10. Some families are unwilling to educate their older daughters because adult women are not supposed to be going out. Another reason is early marriages; women are supposed to get married and bear children as soon as they reach the age of 18 which means that they cannot pursue an education.

    The number of out-of-school children has remained stagnant in the last decade despite tall claims by successive governments. With a female literacy of 44% and a male literacy of 68%, the future looks bleak for Pakistan if it does not invest in education.

  39. #38
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    This is really bad reading.

    Makes you hopeless

  40. #39
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    These are the stats that's going to determine the future of south asia. If India is ever going to defeat Pakistan in their rivalry, it's not going to be in a battle involving guns and bullets but it's going to happen in a bloodless battle. That is how the Americans defeated the Soviet union, the mighty Soviet union had some of the most powerful nukes ever invented by mankind, but the US didn't defeat the Soviet Union using guns and bullets. Rather, they involved the Soviet Union into an arms race and also a space race where all the revenues were diverted to, in a situation where they couldn't afford doing so, which pushed the Soviet Union to bankruptcy and ultimately its disintegration.

    That is what I think is the strategy of operation between India and Pakistan. India doesn't need to do anything, all it needs to do is build up a few arms themselves and Pakistan will invariably inject a much more higher share of their economy for their military budget to compensate for the disparity between the sizes of both countries, and that will come at a cost of other sectors and this will ultimately result in a bankrupt situation. This has already happened in some ways for Pakistan but China will never allow Pakistan to disintegrate due to a bankrupt situation, as Pakistan is an important counterweight against India for China (just like India was for the Soviet Union against China in some ways in the past, or north Korea is for China against Japan in the region). So China will help to prop up the economy of Pakistan using soft loans and other economic policies like the CPEC.

    But all that will be futile if nearly 40% of kids remain out of school in Pakistan. Might be weird talking about this stat in a post involving military build up and geopolitics, but everything is interconnected in the economy of a nation. Education sector might look like the most boring sector in economy compared to military budget where you can buy state of the art arms and you can readily use it, but it's actually the most important sector. The kids right now will determine the future of the country 2-3 decades later. If nearly 50% of young kids remain out of school, that means you don't get an educated working force in the future, which means they can't be employed in high skilled sectors but only in manual labour based sectors which aren't productive. There's a difference between employing your work force in building an aircraft to using them to export fruits and vegetables. A less educated workforce produce less revenues than a highly educated workforce which will impact your next budget and the cycle goes on.

    In my opinion, Bangladesh looks like it's going to have the best future out of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh in the subcontinent. They have a lot of positive social indicators, they have done wonderfully well to control their fertility rate and employ their women in workforce in textile industry. Their economy may not be as diversified as India's is, but at least it employs more people and there is less unemployment. There is a reason they have overtaken both India and Pakistan in gdp per capita just in a few decades since they were ravaged by the war. India has relatively better indicators and a more diverse economy. Very few Indian children are out of school and more women take part in workforce than Pakistan, although not as much as Bangladesh. India also has probably the most diversified economy in the subcontinent in manufacturing automobiles, petrochemicals, pharmaceuticals and services industry. It however still needs to the establish its manufacturing industry more to employ more of its workforce, otherwise the gap between India and China will keep increasing if the ruling govt continues to concentrate on stupid hindu muslim battles. Pakistan has the weakest social indicators with a high fertility rate, large percentage of children out of school and lower literacy rate, especially among women, which in turn affects the participation of women in workforce. It's part of the reason why the Pakistani economy is struggling and went into bankruptcy. The differences between its rivals will appear very stark in the future if these negative social indicators aren't corrected immediately because ultimately the educational state of your present day children determines the quality of your future workforce.
    Last edited by street cricketer; 10th August 2021 at 19:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
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    One thing I'm curious is if the 44% statistic is after accounting kids going to madrassas as those successfully receiving primary education.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    One thing I'm curious is if the 44% statistic is after accounting kids going to madrassas as those successfully receiving primary education.
    Yes, out-of-school stats are after counting kids attending madrassas as those successfully receiving primary education. See post #30, it has Unisef doc with details.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Yes, out-of-school stats are after counting kids attending madrassas as those successfully receiving primary education. See post #30, it has Unisef doc with details.
    So what will be your solution for this issue? Donations from expats and international agencies? Anything else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    So what will be your solution for this issue? Donations from expats and international agencies? Anything else?
    Donations etc can help, but it's not going to make a huge dent for such a big number.

    Government can provide free meals and also throw some money for families if kids are in school. A large amount of funding and effort has to go into it for 10-15 years to solve this issue. International funding dedicated to this can go a long way as long as money utilization can be ensured.

    Also, look at what India, Nepal, and Bangladesh have done about it. I have not looked closely but copying some stuff should work for Pakistan as well.
    Last edited by Buffet; 11th August 2021 at 00:57.


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    This is a complex topic generally not reserved for the hit and giggle of a forum such as this. However lets get beyond the obvious trolls and point scorers and address this as best we can. None of us are education or socio economic experts so this next part comes with heavy caveats.

    Firstly The number is appalling there is no doubt. A country like sri lanka has a almost 98%literacy rate. But lets try and ask why is this the case?

    From my very basic understanding of the issue is the past lack of desire to spend on education, corruption within the service, the mismanagement of the economy and socio economic problems.

    The majority of pakistanis continue to live in rural areas and most of these parts have ghost schools. With ghost teachers. Since education is divided between the haves and the have nots those who can afford it can get an education. Those that cant go to work.

    Past admins have failed to change the structure of the education system within the country. An illiterate populace is easily manipulated. And the literate ones leave the country due to apathy or disillusionment.

    The question is what can be done? thats what we should be discussing..

  46. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Great Khan View Post
    This is a complex topic generally not reserved for the hit and giggle of a forum such as this. However lets get beyond the obvious trolls and point scorers and address this as best we can. None of us are education or socio economic experts so this next part comes with heavy caveats.

    Firstly The number is appalling there is no doubt. A country like sri lanka has a almost 98%literacy rate. But lets try and ask why is this the case?

    From my very basic understanding of the issue is the past lack of desire to spend on education, corruption within the service, the mismanagement of the economy and socio economic problems.

    The majority of pakistanis continue to live in rural areas and most of these parts have ghost schools. With ghost teachers. Since education is divided between the haves and the have nots those who can afford it can get an education. Those that cant go to work.

    Past admins have failed to change the structure of the education system within the country. An illiterate populace is easily manipulated. And the literate ones leave the country due to apathy or disillusionment.

    The question is what can be done? thats what we should be discussing..
    These seem like very valid points regarding not enough funds diverted to education. I think one needs to go another level deeper and ask why aren't funds being diverted that way? Compare other countries with similar GDP or per capita income levels (meaning other similar poor developing countries) and they have much better rates of education for kids. So, if they could find+divert funds for education, why couldn't Pakistan? It is an open question, not that I'm expecting you or I to have an answer because as you rightly state, this could be a complex issue.
    Last edited by Last Monetarist; 11th August 2021 at 14:06.

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    Many of the 57 Million kids might be studying at a Madrassa instead of a Western curriculum school. Are the religious school educated ones considered literate or illiterate as it can skew the numbers drastically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guna View Post
    Many of the 57 Million kids might be studying at a Madrassa instead of a Western curriculum school. Are the religious school educated ones considered literate or illiterate as it can skew the numbers drastically.
    They are considered literate. So the dropout rate would be much lower than 44% if you discount madrassa education.

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    @Cpt. Rishwat - You share your astute observations about so many issues (ranging from Hindu-Muslim neighbor squabbles in India to China's influence in Pakistan). With 20K+ posts over the years I'm sure you have accumulated enough knowledge and also care enough about the plight of education in Pakistan. Please share your insights for the benefit of others in this forum.

    Other Pakistanis (especially the ones in UK) who seem to have the best of both worlds - knowledge/care for Pakistan and a global outlook - please share your thoughts here as well.
    Last edited by Last Monetarist; 12th August 2021 at 02:14.

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    Keep this thread clean of irrelevant tangents about the role of expatriate Pakistanis, there are multiple threads already where these discussions can be had: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...light=overseas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Monetarist View Post
    Keep this thread clean of irrelevant tangents about the role of expatriate Pakistanis, there are multiple threads already where these discussions can be had: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...light=overseas
    Yeah man fair enough. That specific thread about overseas Pakistanis is not entirely relevant but I can always start a new thread if need be.

    I am very eager to hear thought about causes and solutions for primary education deficit in Pakistan from other Pakistanis.

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    ^^ this is bound to be the fate of 50M+ children in Pakistan but some of the regular "hawks" here ignore a valid issue in their community for the sake of cheap point scoring. Seems like they care more about feeling good by putting others down than discussing a very pertinent issue in their own communities. Very sad to see.

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    Pretty strange that so many Pakistanis jump at articles regarding a high court ruling in India, neighbor squabbles in India with "put down" comments while it is chirping crickets in a thread like this where an entire generation of kids in Pakistan will not even attain primary education. I wonder why?

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    Is it because the demographic of Pakistani posters here is dominated by those not living in Pakistan, so it is not directly affecting them and hence they choose to focus more on threads where they can "feel good by putting someone else down instead of improving ourselves"?

    Mods - this is not a dig on any precious/fragile sub-group of posters here but a genuine question about the skewed participation in topics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    Is it because the demographic of Pakistani posters here is dominated by those not living in Pakistan, so it is not directly affecting them and hence they choose to focus more on threads where they can "feel good by putting someone else down instead of improving ourselves"?

    Mods - this is not a dig on any precious/fragile sub-group of posters here but a genuine question about the skewed participation in topics.
    Lack of skin in the game isn't just an issue that affects expatriates, even Pakistanis living in the country that are relatively sheltered from the grim reality of life for the majority of this country's citizens have contingency plans to quit if/when things go south.

    The point about feeling good about themselves by making throwaway comments on trivial and banal news items which paint the 'enemy' in a bad light, applies equally to folks on both sides of the border

  56. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Monetarist View Post
    Lack of skin in the game isn't just an issue that affects expatriates, even Pakistanis living in the country that are relatively sheltered from the grim reality of life for the majority of this country's citizens have contingency plans to quit if/when things go south.

    The point about feeling good about themselves by making throwaway comments on trivial and banal news items which paint the 'enemy' in a bad light, applies equally to folks on both sides of the border
    That’s fair however the bigger problem is when there is enthusiasm about Taliban taking over Afghan because it will drive out Indian influence or India suffering financial losses whatever without realizing how toxic a Taliban regime in the neighborhood would be for their own people. Imran Khan or few generals cozying up with Taliban will not do anything for the common Pakistani if any will do more harm than good. Similarly there were posts about China taking over Pakistan. Those kind of posts show how cut off some of them are with the ground realities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local.Dada View Post
    That’s fair however the bigger problem is when there is enthusiasm about Taliban taking over Afghan because it will drive out Indian influence or India suffering financial losses whatever without realizing how toxic a Taliban regime in the neighborhood would be for their own people. Imran Khan or few generals cozying up with Taliban will not do anything for the common Pakistani if any will do more harm than good. Similarly there were posts about China taking over Pakistan. Those kind of posts show how cut off some of them are with the ground realities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Last Monetarist View Post
    Lack of skin in the game isn't just an issue that affects expatriates, even Pakistanis living in the country that are relatively sheltered from the grim reality of life for the majority of this country's citizens have contingency plans to quit if/when things go south.

    The point about feeling good about themselves by making throwaway comments on trivial and banal news items which paint the 'enemy' in a bad light, applies equally to folks on both sides of the border
    Exactly this (bolded part I quoted above) @Last Monetarist

    #1 - Not being aware of such a calamity in Pakistan - Overseas Pakistanis just not being aware and it is understandable
    #2 - Being aware and still only caring about scoring points against others - Human nature and every group has such rotten bad apples with low intellect
    #3 - Being aware and deliberately advocating geo-political ideas that will make things worse for kids in Pakistan so that you as an individual can get perverse happiness - Lowest of the low (I'm sure we can all agree on that).

    While a majority of Pakistani (overseas Pakistanis I would reckon) posters are in the #2 category above, it is very shocking to see a good number of overseas Pakistani posters falling in the #3 category.

    Just to shut any "whataboutism" by self-anointed "Captains" here - I would happily call out any US or Indian poster in a similar manner too.

  58. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    Exactly this (bolded part I quoted above) @Last Monetarist

    #1 - Not being aware of such a calamity in Pakistan - Overseas Pakistanis just not being aware and it is understandable
    #2 - Being aware and still only caring about scoring points against others - Human nature and every group has such rotten bad apples with low intellect
    #3 - Being aware and deliberately advocating geo-political ideas that will make things worse for kids in Pakistan so that you as an individual can get perverse happiness - Lowest of the low (I'm sure we can all agree on that).

    While a majority of Pakistani (overseas Pakistanis I would reckon) posters are in the #2 category above, it is very shocking to see a good number of overseas Pakistani posters falling in the #3 category.

    Just to shut any "whataboutism" by self-anointed "Captains" here - I would happily call out any US or Indian poster in a similar manner too.
    Due to being a cricket forum, the average age of posters here may not be high. If you are a teenager, you are obviously going to be attracted to clickbait threads a lot more than some threads like this. Now some grown-up posters also act like teens, but it happens. You can not do much about it. It is a normal distribution curve in humans.

    I am sure that plenty of Pakistanis are aware of it and want to change the situation. They may not be aware of the exact % or data, but they must be knowing plenty of kids who are out of school due to the percentage being so high. This forum is probably not a good representation of the average Pakistani, so I won't read much into what kind of response you get here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Due to being a cricket forum, the average age of posters here may not be high. If you are a teenager, you are obviously going to be attracted to clickbait threads a lot more than some threads like this. Now some grown-up posters also act like teens, but it happens. You can not do much about it. It is a normal distribution curve in humans.

    I am sure that plenty of Pakistanis are aware of it and want to change the situation. They may not be aware of the exact % or data, but they must be knowing plenty of kids who are out of school due to the percentage being so high. This forum is probably not a good representation of the average Pakistani, so I won't read much into what kind of response you get here.
    Yeah valid points. Totally agree about some grown ups acting like teens. Just look at some of them showing their glee for a Taliban victory. Do they even realize what their puppets (Pakistani Taliban) do to kids and how this trend will make lives worse for children in Pakistan? They probably do and are still jumping in glee at Taliban takeover of Afghanistan.

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    Some more revealing statistics about the plight of children's education in Pakistan

    https://wenr.wes.org/2020/02/education-in-pakistan

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    Some more revealing statistics about the plight of children's education in Pakistan

    https://wenr.wes.org/2020/02/education-in-pakistan
    The situation actually gets worse with age. Around 70% are not in school in higher grades.

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    Hopefully, the Pakistani government is doing something to change this trend, but I have not seen any big change in the trend.

    Ideally, this should be a focal point in all elections and be closely tracked. Anyone could be born in any part of the world and if you are born in Pakistan then you are not likely to get an education. That's not the kid's fault. It is the fault of the system in place.

    I can't honestly think of a bigger problem than this.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

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    23-24M Elementary age kids

    Only 4-5M end up getting secondary education.

    Society is failing these kids.

    Pakistan has more resources than Sub-Saharan countries, but education for kids is at the same level as sub-Saharan countries. Priority should be shifted to focus on this. The result will show up in the coming decades and the country can thrive if most of the kids get an education.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    23-24M Elementary age kids

    Only 4-5M end up getting secondary education.

    Society is failing these kids.

    Pakistan has more resources than Sub-Saharan countries, but education for kids is at the same level as sub-Saharan countries. Priority should be shifted to focus on this. The result will show up in the coming decades and the country can thrive if most of the kids get an education.
    The sad part is that sub-saharan countries do not funnel their budget into military at the expense of their children but Pakistan does.

    Another sad part is Sub-Saharan countries do not have their policies or outlooks dominated by EU/UK/US living expats who take hawkish stands at the expense of children living in those sub-saharan countries when their own kids enjoy first world education. That does seem to be the case for Pakistan which is very sad.

    What could be a good solution? Aid through government is pointless thanks to rampant corruption. NGOs maybe? But then safety or perceived lack of safety for western international workers in Pakistan becomes an issue in that case.


    Love stomping out the terrorists under my boots!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    The sad part is that sub-saharan countries do not funnel their budget into military at the expense of their children but Pakistan does.

    Another sad part is Sub-Saharan countries do not have their policies or outlooks dominated by EU/UK/US living expats who take hawkish stands at the expense of children living in those sub-saharan countries when their own kids enjoy first world education. That does seem to be the case for Pakistan which is very sad.

    What could be a good solution? Aid through government is pointless thanks to rampant corruption. NGOs maybe? But then safety or perceived lack of safety for western international workers in Pakistan becomes an issue in that case.
    Foreign loans/aid should be tied to 70% figure becoming 65% and then 60% and so on within a certain time frame. 70% is a ridiculously high figure. If the Pakistani government is not doing anything about so many kids then outsiders should force this issue.
    Last edited by Buffet; 19th October 2021 at 03:22.


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    Heres my two cents.

    Over the years, I have been part of several educational projects in underpreviliged neighbourhoods in Maharashtra, India. Usual story is locally donated (or cheaply sold) land plus NGOs with funds plus government subsidies and grants make a school happen. Then the locals chip in as soon as they realize how important that school is for their kids. In economically backward places, local contribution is very very low but is present in some form like locals doing free labour in building the school or even offering agricultural produce when they dont have money. This local contribution may be nominal but is very important notionally.

    Now about the situation at hand, I have seen an alarming shift in Muslim community's attitude in last two or three decades since various religious orders like Tableeghi jamat, Dawat e Islami etc have "progressed". It has become very difficult to convince a muslim person to contribute to a secular cause like helping a school. If you want to build a mosque, It is very easy to collect tens of lakh rupees within days even from lower income areas whereas I have seen schools struggle to arrange even ten thousand for fitting fans in classrooms. Religious charities like Zakat and Sadqah fitr have very narrow band of eligible beneficiaries (according to people). Let alone money, even getting people to spend their spare time for a secular cause is very difficult. Most 50-60 year old uncles who have retired or semi-retired do not want to contribute anything socially. They just become very religious and devote all their spare time and money for religious activities. Bas Allah Allah karte hain woh log. Even the highly educated ones follow the same pattern in their later years.

    Does this apply to Pakistan as well? Only the posters who live there can tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    The sad part is that sub-saharan countries do not funnel their budget into military at the expense of their children but Pakistan does.

    Another sad part is Sub-Saharan countries do not have their policies or outlooks dominated by EU/UK/US living expats who take hawkish stands at the expense of children living in those sub-saharan countries when their own kids enjoy first world education. That does seem to be the case for Pakistan which is very sad.

    What could be a good solution? Aid through government is pointless thanks to rampant corruption. NGOs maybe? But then safety or perceived lack of safety for western international workers in Pakistan becomes an issue in that case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    23-24M Elementary age kids

    Only 4-5M end up getting secondary education.

    Society is failing these kids.

    Pakistan has more resources than Sub-Saharan countries, but education for kids is at the same level as sub-Saharan countries. Priority should be shifted to focus on this. The result will show up in the coming decades and the country can thrive if most of the kids get an education.

    Its not a question of resources. The government has greatly increased the spending on education over the last 10 years without seeing much improvements. Second Pakistan has a very amount of children in private schools, so its misleading to only look at what the government is spending.


    Same way in the US some of the worst schools have the highest budgets, but no amount of money will improve those schools as resources are not the reason why they are poor.

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    Since 2010, Pakistan has more than doubled what it budgets for education, from $3.5 billion to $8.6 billion a year. The budget for education now rivals the official $8.7 billion military budget. The teaching force is as big as the armed forces.

    But Pakistan has a learning crisis that afflicts its schoolchildren despite much debate and increase in funding for education because policy interventions by the government and foreign donors misdiagnosed what is keeping children out of school.
    Pakistan’s education crisis is a supply-side problem. Enrollment rates are used as the measure for progress because Pakistan has the second-largest population of out-of-school children in the world. But the proportion of 5- to 9-year-olds in school is the same as it was in 2010: 57 percent. With teachers chronically absent from school at a rate of 20 to 30 percent and most of the education budget going into their above-market salaries ($150 to $1,000 a month), doubling the budget was never the solution to Pakistan’s education crisis.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/18/o...n-schools.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roaring40s View Post
    Heres my two cents.

    Over the years, I have been part of several educational projects in underpreviliged neighbourhoods in Maharashtra, India. Usual story is locally donated (or cheaply sold) land plus NGOs with funds plus government subsidies and grants make a school happen. Then the locals chip in as soon as they realize how important that school is for their kids. In economically backward places, local contribution is very very low but is present in some form like locals doing free labour in building the school or even offering agricultural produce when they dont have money. This local contribution may be nominal but is very important notionally.

    Now about the situation at hand, I have seen an alarming shift in Muslim community's attitude in last two or three decades since various religious orders like Tableeghi jamat, Dawat e Islami etc have "progressed". It has become very difficult to convince a muslim person to contribute to a secular cause like helping a school. If you want to build a mosque, It is very easy to collect tens of lakh rupees within days even from lower income areas whereas I have seen schools struggle to arrange even ten thousand for fitting fans in classrooms. Religious charities like Zakat and Sadqah fitr have very narrow band of eligible beneficiaries (according to people). Let alone money, even getting people to spend their spare time for a secular cause is very difficult. Most 50-60 year old uncles who have retired or semi-retired do not want to contribute anything socially. They just become very religious and devote all their spare time and money for religious activities. Bas Allah Allah karte hain woh log. Even the highly educated ones follow the same pattern in their later years.

    Does this apply to Pakistan as well? Only the posters who live there can tell.
    No. The people of Pakistan value education, and spend alot of money for it. The problem is that poor people cant afford to send children to private schools, and the education in government schools is bad even though they cost more to run.

    Children in government schools report that teachers have them clean, cook, massage their feet and buy them desserts. Children are categorized as smart or stupid as soon as they start school. Corporal punishment is severe. Parents will send their kids to a private school if they can afford a few dollars a month, but they do not see government schools as worth it.
    A vast number of aspirational families in Pakistan invest a large proportion of their income in educating their children at low-cost private schools. They do not speak English at home but they demand English at school, because it is the language of the elite and the global marketplace. So Pakistan’s private schools use English textbooks and tests, even though 94 percent of private-school teachers don’t know English.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/18/o...n-schools.html

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    Solution for Pakistan is for education to be privatized. Give vouchers to children and let them enroll in private schools, or schools run by NGO's. No amount of money will even fix public schools in places like interior Sindh.

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    Apart from lack of resources, poverty and skilled teachers, another issue is that a significant Pakistanis do not see the value of educating their daughters. Many families refuse to educate their daughters because, one day, their daughters will get married and leave their house and settle down in their in-laws house. This narrative is also peddled by clerics such as Tariq Masood who said parents are under no obligation to educate their daughters.

    One the other hand, some families distrust Western education and see education as corrupting the minds of their girls. Others do not send their daughters to school because of the fear such as sex abuse and harassment. Sex abuse of children in educational institute is a reality in Pakistan.

    All these issues add up and contribute to Pakistan's abysmal literacy rates. There are no signs of improvement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gharib Aadmi View Post
    Solution for Pakistan is for education to be privatized. Give vouchers to children and let them enroll in private schools, or schools run by NGO's. No amount of money will even fix public schools in places like interior Sindh.
    This can work for the provider side of the equation. Please do remember that this is just one half of the equation, the other half being the consumer side. Even if the quality of delivery is improved from the providers' side, the willingness (across both the gender) should be high enough from the consumer side for effective delivery of education.


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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    Apart from lack of resources, poverty and skilled teachers, another issue is that a significant Pakistanis do not see the value of educating their daughters. Many families refuse to educate their daughters because, one day, their daughters will get married and leave their house and settle down in their in-laws house. This narrative is also peddled by clerics such as Tariq Masood who said parents are under no obligation to educate their daughters.

    One the other hand, some families distrust Western education and see education as corrupting the minds of their girls. Others do not send their daughters to school because of the fear such as sex abuse and harassment. Sex abuse of children in educational institute is a reality in Pakistan.

    All these issues add up and contribute to Pakistan's abysmal literacy rates. There are no signs of improvement.
    Yep, I think mismatch in priorities across genders contributes to a good extent towards such low rates of education among children in Pakistan.

    This really is a demographic time bomb. In just 1-2 generations, around 50% of the population in Pakistan may barely read/write. Scary to think of the social/political fall outs then.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    Yep, I think mismatch in priorities across genders contributes to a good extent towards such low rates of education among children in Pakistan.

    This really is a demographic time bomb. In just 1-2 generations, around 50% of the population in Pakistan may barely read/write. Scary to think of the social/political fall outs then.
    We are already there! Our literacy is a mere 58%!

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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    Apart from lack of resources, poverty and skilled teachers, another issue is that a significant Pakistanis do not see the value of educating their daughters. Many families refuse to educate their daughters because, one day, their daughters will get married and leave their house and settle down in their in-laws house. This narrative is also peddled by clerics such as Tariq Masood who said parents are under no obligation to educate their daughters.

    One the other hand, some families distrust Western education and see education as corrupting the minds of their girls. Others do not send their daughters to school because of the fear such as sex abuse and harassment. Sex abuse of children in educational institute is a reality in Pakistan.

    All these issues add up and contribute to Pakistan's abysmal literacy rates. There are no signs of improvement.
    How many of your relatives have refused to educate females?

    Almost every female in my family is educated.

    Sex abuse happens everywhere, not exclusive to Pakistan. Almost every girl in the US in some way or form was subjected to sexual (verbal, ogling, etc) abuse.

    Sexual abuse of children in educational institutes is not just a reality exclusive to Pakistan but almost everywhere in the world. Try googling "abuse" without "Pakistan"

    Almost every female does settle down with either their in-laws or their husband, next step in their life, not exclusive to Pakistan and not the reason for low education number.

    Why do you always make blanket statements about Pakistan and make it seem like every issue is almost exclusive to Pakistan?


    Economy is the biggest issue - everything else is secondary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    We are already there! Our literacy is a mere 58%!
    Wow, really? But is the data an increasing trend or decreasing trend? Even if it is only 58% as an absolute number, if the literacy rate has been steadily increasing over the past years then that could be somewhat of a redeeming factor.


    Love stomping out the terrorists under my boots!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gharib Aadmi View Post
    I am not sure why there is no improvement despite doubling the budget. Quality of education is totally different thing, here we are talking about kids simply being enrolled in school. With an increased budget, I would think it should be possible to provide incentives for kids to be in school.

    Public and private school argument is well known and applicable in pretty much all parts of the world. That hardly means that 70% of kids are out of school. Something else is drastically wrong here.


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    To put it in context,

    BD has not spent more than 2% of GDP in the last 10-15 years on education and Pakistan was spending more than 2% of gdp. BD per capita income was lower than in Pakistan until recently. So BD was not spending more on a per capita basis on education and yet Bangladesh has better outcomes.

    It's not only a money allocation issue. Allocated money is not used properly.
    Last edited by Buffet; 22nd October 2021 at 07:04.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

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    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.TOTL.GD.ZS

    It has,

    Pakistan spent 2.9% of its GDP on education in 2017.
    BD spent 1.3% of GDP on education in 2019.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaLoco View Post
    How many of your relatives have refused to educate females?

    Almost every female in my family is educated.

    Sex abuse happens everywhere, not exclusive to Pakistan. Almost every girl in the US in some way or form was subjected to sexual (verbal, ogling, etc) abuse.

    Sexual abuse of children in educational institutes is not just a reality exclusive to Pakistan but almost everywhere in the world. Try googling "abuse" without "Pakistan"

    Almost every female does settle down with either their in-laws or their husband, next step in their life, not exclusive to Pakistan and not the reason for low education number.

    Why do you always make blanket statements about Pakistan and make it seem like every issue is almost exclusive to Pakistan?


    Economy is the biggest issue - everything else is secondary.
    A significant number of girls in my village are refused education and some are undereducated i.e. only have completed four to five grades. If your family members are educated, it means you are privileged because in Pakistan, education is a privilege and not a human right. Also, your argument is very poor - it is akin to saying "I have not been murdered, it means this country is safe".

    Yes, every woman settles down with her in-laws but in Pakistan, the only focus of a girl's life is marriage. Majority of families save up for marriage and dowry rather than education. You said economic reason was the cause of low literacy, if so, it would affect both genders more or less equally but it does not. Female literacy is 44.5% while male literacy is 72%. There is more to it such as misogyny, patriarchy and low status of women in Pakistan.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    Wow, really? But is the data an increasing trend or decreasing trend? Even if it is only 58% as an absolute number, if the literacy rate has been steadily increasing over the past years then that could be somewhat of a redeeming factor.
    It is stagnant. It is a hopeless situation.


    Sehwag and Steyn are the Best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustang View Post
    This can work for the provider side of the equation. Please do remember that this is just one half of the equation, the other half being the consumer side. Even if the quality of delivery is improved from the providers' side, the willingness (across both the gender) should be high enough from the consumer side for effective delivery of education.
    Quote Originally Posted by saeedhk View Post
    Apart from lack of resources, poverty and skilled teachers, another issue is that a significant Pakistanis do not see the value of educating their daughters. Many families refuse to educate their daughters because, one day, their daughters will get married and leave their house and settle down in their in-laws house. This narrative is also peddled by clerics such as Tariq Masood who said parents are under no obligation to educate their daughters.

    One the other hand, some families distrust Western education and see education as corrupting the minds of their girls. Others do not send their daughters to school because of the fear such as sex abuse and harassment. Sex abuse of children in educational institute is a reality in Pakistan.

    All these issues add up and contribute to Pakistan's abysmal literacy rates. There are no signs of improvement.
    Their is a high demand for female education. Per a Pew research survey from 2014 Pakistanis expressed the following views on female education:

    86% of Pakistanis view education for girls as equally important as education for boys.
    5% of Pakistanis view girls education more important than education for boys.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ucating-girls/

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