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  1. #1
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    What Do You Know About Islam?

    Islam has been at the centre of world attention for some considerable time, mainly for all the wrong reasons. Bad actions perpetrated by Muslims are immediately, without thought or question, attributed to Islam. Because of this, many people think they know all about Islam.

    However, if we separate truth from fiction, what is actually known about Islam? What do people really know about it - as opposed to what they have seen, heard, read or been told?

    The way Islam is practised, preached and propagated rests - in the final analysis - upon knowledge. So, how well - or not, as the case may be - is Islam being conveyed?

    This thread is for everyone interested in the subject, and is addressed to Muslims, non-Muslims alike.

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    Good idea Jadz. Let me begin by asking - is apostasy punishable by death, or in any other way?

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    Thanks RWAC

    To answer your question: no, apostasy is not punishable by death, nor does it carry any penalty whatsoever. People are free to believe, or reject, whatever they want. The 'La Ikraha Fi-Deen' - There shall be no compulsion in matters of religion (Q2:256) - statement makes it clear that faith, or religion, cannot be forced upon anyone.

    I did write a piece about the subjects of apostasy and blasphemy, you might find it of interest:

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...emy&highlight=

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    Sorry, S-I-F, for not responding to your comments yesterday, unfortunately I had to sign out.

    From what I recall, you asked about eternal punishment, and the seeming unfairness of people being born as Muslims, which puts all others at a disadvantage.

    I will address the question of punishment first: the concept of 'eternity' is, of course, related to time. Human beings are not able to conceive of such limitless periods of time, so when the Qur'an mentions ideas associated with time, they cannot and should not be interpreted in a literal sense. Now, as for punishment and the length thereof, this largely depends upon the crime, or offence. For instance, man-made courts of law impose either life-sentences or the death penalty for the most serious, heinous of crimes. Such punishments may, in themselves, be viewed - in human terms - as eternal. If we take Adolf Hitler as an example, then we can see how a limited duration would not be appropriate, given the gravity of his crimes, their long-lasting effects and impacts, as well as their legacy. Such an individual so corrupted his humanity that he rendered his life purposeless, and made the lives of millions of innocent human beings hell, literally as well as figuratively. The Judgement God passes depends upon the crime committed, and the penalty is commensurate with it.

    Regarding the second issue: being born Muslim does not make one into a believer, only faith does, and this cannot be handed down or inherited. Faith rests upon knowledge, and we can see that many Muslims have no idea what Islam is, or what it means, yet still think they will enter heaven only because they were born as Muslims. However, action, intention are key aspects of faith, and proper action must be founded upon pure intention, which in itself must be borne out of reason, knowledge and intelligence. Muslims who pervert or distort the Islamic message are far worse than non-Muslims - they are not hypocrites. With the onset of the internet, many more people have access to knowledge about Islam, and to Muslims. So those who are interested, may avail themselves of these opportunities. Those who have no means of attaining knowledge about Islam will be accepted by God, as He is Most Merciful. He does not reject human beings only because they follow or adhere to wrong beliefs, He punishes those who - even if they, apparently - have the right beliefs but nevertheless mistreat other people, deny them justice and equity. Being a Muslim - one who submits to the Will of God - is an enormous responsibility, because faith in Him is a sacred trust. Those who deliberately break their covenant with Him are destined to be condemned by Him.

    You also asked about life as being a test: indeed it is. Life has no meaning and no purpose if it is not part and parcel of a Divine Plan, but being tested by our Creator does not mean constant hardship or suffering: rather, it means being tested with all the opposites in existence, such as good and bad, joy and pain, war and peace, light and dark, and so on. This is why the Qur'an stresses the need to think, ponder, reflect and contemplate, because it is through insight, wisdom and sound knowledge that all things are understood.

    Anyway, I hope this is helpful, if not, please let me know. Thank you for your patience!

  5. #5
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    Good idea Jadz


    Quote Originally Posted by La Haine movie
    Jusqu'ici tout va bien. L'important n’est pas la chute, c’est l’atterrissage.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    You also asked about life as being a test: indeed it is. Life has no meaning and no purpose if it is not part and parcel of a Divine Plan, but being tested by our Creator does not mean constant hardship or suffering: rather, it means being tested with all the opposites in existence, such as good and bad, joy and pain, war and peace, light and dark, and so on. This is why the Qur'an stresses the need to think, ponder, reflect and contemplate, because it is through insight, wisdom and sound knowledge that all things are understood.
    I don't understand why people need to be tested at all. Why do you have to believe in God based solely on what someone tells you about him or what you read in a book about him? I don't believe stories I read that I know to be fictional, why should I believe these religion stories? Because a bunch of other people do? Why does religion say you must believe without any proof (and no, looking around at nature and the world is not proof). That's pretty convenient, isn't it? That you have to believe when there's no proof as it's part of a "test"? Why do you have to bow down to worship God? Is he egotistical and wants you to worship him and show your submission to him? If a man did the same we wouldn't think very highly of the man.

  7. #7
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    Does Islam like Christianity believe that Earth is only 6000 yrs old?

    Does Islam teaches us that Earth is flat?

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    My question can be factually incorrect, but this is what I feel. Why do you think that Islam's teachings are being misinterpreted to an extent that it is probably the most misunderstood religion not only from an outsider's perspective, but also for many Muslims themselves??

    No matter how brilliant a religious text is, the important thing for me is how those teachings are being delivered to the masses. What do you think is going wrong with that part?

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    @Jadz - Thanks for your clear reply.

    For those others who were wondering what post I made, here's it (I wrote it but I wasn't sure whether I was ready for a serious discussion at that time - so I deleted it - I thought I will post it in this same thread at a later date). Now that Jadz saw my post and was kind enough to give a crystal clear reply, I am all ears.

    Jadz, you are one of the most coolest posters here and I would like to ask you this question:

    What is the justification for eternal hell in Islam?

    Going to hell I can understand. We make mistakes. We pay the price. But why infinite punishment for a finite crime?

    Also, I have heard posters say that God has created us to test us.

    That's fine.

    Different people are given different tests. But why are some given easier tests (by virtue of being born in a Muslim family and made to follow the right path according to Islam) while others are given a harder test failing which they could go to eternal hell.

    95% of people would follow the religion they are born into. We are all conditioned to believe our religion is right and others are wrong and when we study stuff, we view it with a biased lens (this happens to even the most intellectually brilliant people). Religion is a belief and once indoctrinated in a certain way, a person is highly unlikely to question it no matter what. Sure, some might convert to other religions but most won't.

    So I would like to know - why eternal hell for disbelief based on a test where majority would simply follow the religion they are born into?

    Have had this doubt for a long time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    Sorry, S-I-F, for not responding to your comments yesterday, unfortunately I had to sign out.

    From what I recall, you asked about eternal punishment, and the seeming unfairness of people being born as Muslims, which puts all others at a disadvantage.

    I will address the question of punishment first: the concept of 'eternity' is, of course, related to time. Human beings are not able to conceive of such limitless periods of time, so when the Qur'an mentions ideas associated with time, they cannot and should not be interpreted in a literal sense.
    Cool. So if I understand correctly, its not eternal hell.

    So from your choice of words, I understand that its possible that the hell being referred to is not eternal. I still wonder - If it isn't eternal hell, then why wouldn't it be mentioned clearly? Like one would go to hell for a long time and after that he will out of it.

    Why any ambiguity reg this topic which can be interpreted in various ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    With the onset of the internet, many more people have access to knowledge about Islam, and to Muslims. So those who are interested, may avail themselves of these opportunities. Those who have no means of attaining knowledge about Islam will be accepted by God, as He is Most Merciful. He does not reject human beings only because they follow or adhere to wrong beliefs, He punishes those who - even if they, apparently - have the right beliefs but nevertheless mistreat other people, deny them justice and equity. Being a Muslim - one who submits to the Will of God - is an enormous responsibility, because faith in Him is a sacred trust. Those who deliberately break their covenant with Him are destined to be condemned by Him.
    Ok, I am a little bit confused reg this part.

    Are you saying God will accept people of all religions and not condemn them to hell just because they followed a different religion?

    Or are you saying God will see if a person had the opportunity to know about Islam and if he had had that opportunity and didn't embrace it during his lifetime, he could be condemned to hell?

    If its the former, cool.

    If its the latter, I have another question.

    Let's say (hypothetically), Christianity (the way it portrays God and the path to attain him) is the truth and all other religions are false. Now everyone of us (Non Christians in this forum) have access to Bible, Christian teachings, etc.

    How many of us would study it like a true Christian would do and then decide if it was right for them? The vast majority of us would still not be likely to embrace another even with all the information at our fingertips.

    What about countless other religions?

    When we are born into a particular family, we get indoctrinated with a certain set of views that the family believes in. Now no matter how logical we may be as humans, our entire outlook towards various religions would be through a biased lens, don't you think? Isn't that precisely why even after 1000's of religious debates among intellectuals, there isn't a consensus on which one is the truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    You also asked about life as being a test: indeed it is. Life has no meaning and no purpose if it is not part and parcel of a Divine Plan, but being tested by our Creator does not mean constant hardship or suffering: rather, it means being tested with all the opposites in existence, such as good and bad, joy and pain, war and peace, light and dark, and so on. This is why the Qur'an stresses the need to think, ponder, reflect and contemplate, because it is through insight, wisdom and sound knowledge that all things are understood.

    Anyway, I hope this is helpful, if not, please let me know. Thank you for your patience!
    I am not sure why we need a test in the first place.

    But let's assume this is just a test.

    I would like to take an extreme example to ask a question:

    How is it fair that you and I are blessed with a great life with access to a great education, health, wealth and what not and....some poor kids are trafficked to some unknown land, forced into prostitution, beaten up on a daily basis thereby undergoing a life full of misery until they die?

    If all souls are equal, why is it that one soul gets a nice easy test and other soul gets a brutal test?

    Does the poor kid need to be tested this way for its life to have a meaning? Why can't it have a nice meaningful life like us?

    Now don't get me wrong Jadz. I am not presenting this example just for an argument but I fail to see why should there be such a vast disparity in tests? What's the need? And if there is one, why should certain people get the raw end of the deal?

    ---

    Again, thanks for your detailed reply post. Looking forward to your response.
    Last edited by sensible-indian-fan; 20th October 2014 at 20:34.


    I am not one of you. I never was. I am not one of them either.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    Thanks RWAC

    To answer your question: no, apostasy is not punishable by death, nor does it carry any penalty whatsoever. People are free to believe, or reject, whatever they want. The 'La Ikraha Fi-Deen' - There shall be no compulsion in matters of religion (Q2:256) - statement makes it clear that faith, or religion, cannot be forced upon anyone.

    I did write a piece about the subjects of apostasy and blasphemy, you might find it of interest:

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...emy&highlight=
    Even though I personally have no problem if someone leaves the religion, Your position does not take into account Islamic history and The position of most scholars that apostasy is punishable by death, your view point is a 20th century phenomenon and adopted by the minority Quran only muslims.


    "The hypocrite seeks for faults, the believer seeks for excuses"-Imam al Ghazali (ra)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by speed View Post
    Even though I personally have no problem if someone leaves the religion, Your position does not take into account Islamic history and The position of most scholars that apostasy is punishable by death, your view point is a 20th century phenomenon and adopted by the minority Quran only muslims.
    Are you claiming that majority of Muslims believe that apostasy is punishable by death?

    It could be a sizable number but I find it hard to believe that majority would want to kill some one for abandoning their faith in Islam.
    Last edited by Buffet; 20th October 2014 at 20:54.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Are you claiming that majority of Muslims believe that apostasy is punishable by death?

    It could be a sizable number but I find it hard to believe that majority would want to kill some one for abandoning their faith in Islam.
    I don't know but the position of most scholars throughout history is that it is punishable by death.


    "The hypocrite seeks for faults, the believer seeks for excuses"-Imam al Ghazali (ra)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mithun_minhas View Post
    Does Islam like Christianity believe that Earth is only 6000 yrs old?

    Does Islam teaches us that Earth is flat?
    nope some bs spread by some Poster on this forum and his source was yahoo answers.


    "The hypocrite seeks for faults, the believer seeks for excuses"-Imam al Ghazali (ra)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by speed View Post
    I don't know but the position of most scholars throughout history is that it is punishable by death.
    Oh, you were talking about scholars. I was talking about an average Joe.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

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    I will point out as a disclaimer for those who want to learn that Jadz is providing her OWN interpretations...which is fine providing she actually has scholastic credentials...if not then its like taking Islam from any random joe...

    To give a parallel I myself have never ever provided my own interpretation as I am no scholar...what I have always provided is scholastic opinion...and when there is difference of opinion and no consensus among scholarship i have stated as much...

    For Jadz to say outright that there is no punishment for apostasy goes against reputable scholarship...at the very least what she should state is that the majority of scholars say there is a punishment but based on her own scholarship she deems that there isn't...

    And frankly I think the likes of Abu Hanifa and Ibn Kathir who has done the most reputable tafsir of Quran have more credibility than some random on the internet which Jadz is...

    Out of interest Jadz cos you have always been fairly ambiguous on this point...what is your criteria out of interest?...do you believe in mutawaatir hadith?...at least this way people know you are judging from the same criteria as them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Are you claiming that majority of Muslims believe that apostasy is punishable by death?

    It could be a sizable number but I find it hard to believe that majority would want to kill some one for abandoning their faith in Islam.
    People and scripture are two different discussions...

    Scripture says the punishment is death...however today i doubt most Muslims give a damn...

  17. #17
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    Most of what I know about Islam I have learned from interacting with people on this forum. I had asked some questions elsewhere about caliphates and the like. I have a few more questions:

    1. Can the Shia come up with their own caliphates as well? Would this be accepted by Sunnis assuming they fit the criteria that someone provided (must respect civilians, must be able to enforce law and order and provide security both within and without, must be large enough (I'm not sure how large large enough is) and must respect the rights of non-Muslims by making them pay a jizya tax rather than killing them the way ISIS are). Or are Sunni and Shia caliphates mutually exclusive?

    2. How do you determine who the caliph is? Eg. in Christianity the head of the churches (Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, etc) are usually selected by a college of cardinals or the like. Is there a college of imams/ayatollahs that would select the Caliph? How was Caliph Ibrahim selected to be the Caliph?

    3. I had thought that the Quran was the writings of the Prophet Muhammad. I was advised that it is in fact the revelations of the Prophet. Who wrote these revelations down? Was it the same person writing it or different people at different points in time? One of the things I always thought was different about the Quran vs the Bible is that the Bible was written in many different books by many different people over thousands of years, from the Books of Genesis, Exodus etc in the Old Testament (which I think is very similar to the Jewish Torah) all the way to all the different Gospels and other books in the New Testament. As a result because is was written by different people there are a number of contradictions that I thought the Quran didn't have as it was all written by the same person at the same time.

    4. Do you guys think it is still possible and practical to interpret the Quran literally, as it seems like ISIS are doing? With Catholicism (and this obviously varies among the different countries, Catholic orders in developing countries tend to interpret the Bible more literally than people in places like the US and Australia etc), speaking for myself only, I tend to see the Bible more as teachings, and I look at things like the Genesis story (the creation of the world) as something to be seen figuratively, not literally. I try to look more at the point behind what the books in the Bible say. For example, if Jesus says "if your eye is causing you to sin, rip it out, if your hand is causing you to sin, cut if off" I don't see that figuratively, it's more like Him saying "it's better to lose your eyes or hand than to use them to sin". What is the general Islamic position on this? Because I look at places like Saudi Arabia where they do cut off thieves' hands, or at its extreme groups like ISIS where they crucify criminals because, well, that's what was done 1000 years ago. What was good for us then is good for us now sort of thing. Obviously this differs by country and probably even by local group I'm sure, particularly as there is no "head of Islam" to provide a definitive answer, but what is the general thought about "reinterpreting" the Quran to reflect the changes in society from 1000 years ago to today?

    5. Are Muslims who know how to speak Arabic and can thus read the Quran in its original form seen as more knowledgeable than those who have to rely on translations?

    6. Jadz you mentioned that anyone can leave Islam should they desire. What is it in the Quran then that is causing some groups like ISIS or even places in the world like Nigeria where they do punish apostates by death? Is it because this was the penalty 1000 years ago?

    7. What is the qualification to be an imam or mullah? Is there a seminary that they go to to learn theology, discuss the Quran before then going to preach at the mosque?

    8. Is there such a thing as confession and penance and absolution of sins in Islam? In Christianity when we have sinned we (are supposed to) go to confession with a priest, confess our sins (presumably we have to mean it otherwise there's no point), make an act of contrition, the priest gives us penance to do (could be something as simple as saying the rosary while showing remorse for your sins to going to volunteer at a charity or something) and he then forgives us our sins. Is there something similar in Islam? How do you cleanse your soul when you have sinned?

    I think that's about it for now lol
    Last edited by OZGOD; 20th October 2014 at 21:17.


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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    People and scripture are two different discussions...

    Scripture says the punishment is death...however today i doubt most Muslims give a damn...
    Yah, I got that point from his subsequent post.

    Bold part matters for all practical purposes otherwise we will have a huge problem in our hands. I think few countries have it in their constitution that apostasy is punishable by death but not sure how strictly they follow such things.

    I personally see religion being defined by how population practices it. Religious scriptures are not really going to have much impact on wider population but practice by Muslim population will have a huge impact. A while back after hearing all conflicting arguments, I decided to read Quran myself from start to end. It was clear to me why extremists can use certain interpretation to brainwash so many youths and at the same time, many use the same scripture to counter extremist's points. Then some one told me that you got to learn Arabic to get the full context and that will avoid issues with translation. But that's too much for me.


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    3. I had thought that the Quran was the writings of the Prophet Muhammad. I was advised that it is in fact the revelations of the Prophet. Who wrote these revelations down? Was it the same person writing it or different people at different points in time?
    I would also like to read Jadz's answer to this question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    3. I had thought that the Quran was the writings of the Prophet Muhammad. I was advised that it is in fact the revelations of the Prophet. Who wrote these revelations down? Was it the same person writing it or different people at different points in time? One of the things I always thought was different about the Quran vs the Bible is that the Bible was written in many different books by many different people over thousands of years, from the Books of Genesis, Exodus etc in the Old Testament (which I think is very similar to the Jewish Torah) all the way to all the different Gospels and other books in the New Testament. As a result because is was written by different people there are a number of contradictions that I thought the Quran didn't have as it was all written by the same person at the same time.

    The Prophet pbuh himself was illiterate and as he couldn't read or write, they were recited by him to his companions who would write it down as soon as different chapters or pieces were revealed. There were a few companions for whom it was sort of their duty to put ithem down in writing but others did too aswell and hence it was easy to check and corroborate later. They were coalesced in the form of a book only after his death.

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    Well I think the basics of Islam are rather simple. One Allah, one Qur'an and one Prophet but Muslim's themselves make it complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mithun_minhas View Post
    Does Islam like Christianity believe that Earth is only 6000 yrs old?

    Does Islam teaches us that Earth is flat?
    You will see the mountains and reckon them to be solid; but they go past like clouds-the handiwork of Allah Who gives to everything its solidity. He is aware of what you do. (Qur'an, 27:88)

    By the Sun and its morning brightness, and the moon when it follows it, and the day when it displays it, and the night when it conceals it (Surat ash-Shams, 1-4)

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    My understanding on the subject of apostasy.
    And again, this is based on my personal knowledge.

    There is a case of apostasy when someone is born Muslim and then he leaves Islam on his own will. In this case, there is no Islamic judicial punishment on him. He is free to make this choice.

    Second case, when a non-Muslim converts to Islam and reverts back to path of ignorance because he thought it was not for him etc, then he should be abandoned from living with Muslim community but again, only in a country governed by caliphate system of Islamic judiciary.

    Islam is not a joke or a toy that you can play with whenever you want and leave it whenever you want. This is a serious comittment, so the message is, make sure you know what you are doing when you decide to enter into Islam.

    Third, there is a case where a non-Muslim converts to Islam with the intention to create Fitnah (trouble and division, chaos, misunderstanding, fighting, disintegration, spying etc) among Muslims, and after reaching his goals, he leaves Islam. Then there is punishment where he must be proven guilty in a fair trial in a country that is governed by caliphate under fully implemented Islamic judicial system. And this punishment is not necessarily only death.
    It ranges from minor to capital depending upon the extent and severity of the proven offense.

    Remember, Quran prescribes death penalty ONLY in TWO cases.

    1. If someone takes the life of an innocent human being.

    2. When someone creates Fitnah on earth.

    So if you notice the third case above, the capital punishment, if handed down, is not primarily because of apostasy but because of creating Fitnah.
    Converting to Islam in this case was only disguised to integrate into Muslim community with the wrong intention.
    Last edited by FreeBird; 21st October 2014 at 13:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blistering Barnacle View Post
    I don't understand why people need to be tested at all. Why do you have to believe in God based solely on what someone tells you about him or what you read in a book about him? I don't believe stories I read that I know to be fictional, why should I believe these religion stories? Because a bunch of other people do? Why does religion say you must believe without any proof (and no, looking around at nature and the world is not proof). That's pretty convenient, isn't it? That you have to believe when there's no proof as it's part of a "test"? Why do you have to bow down to worship God? Is he egotistical and wants you to worship him and show your submission to him? If a man did the same we wouldn't think very highly of the man.
    Well, you have asked any number of questions in your post, so I will just address myself to a couple.

    1) You do not have to believe in God, or religion, or have faith: but, most people do have belief systems, even if they are atheists, all of which require articles of faith that enable them to understand life, its meaning and ultimate purpose - or not, as the case maybe.

    2) Yes, those who believe in a Creator do accept the concept of the Unseen, or, a Realm beyond human perception. So that just as we have an observable universe, there is another - or others - which cannot be observed by the senses or mind.

    3) God is not egotistical, human beings are. Believers prefer to submit to their Creator than to other human beings: everyone submits - either consciously or sub-consciously to some kind of authority or power, be it a system or an individual. No-one can operate outside this law. Regarding subconscious submission: we all live and die, work and rest, sleep and awaken, fall ill and regain health, and so on and so forth. Again, no-one has the ability to opt out of these natural states and phases.

    4) I believe life is a test: joy, pain, suffering, contentment, love, hate, war, peace and so on, through these human beings acquire greater knowledge, about life and its existence, about qualities or attributes of patience, compassion, humility, generosity, forgiveness, forbearance, etc. Without such insights, human life is rendered shallow and void of real depth, meaning and direction.

    5) You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions. Thank you for sharing them here - they are much appreciated

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    Hanafis, Shafiis, Malikis and Hanbalis all believe the punishment for apostasy is death...

    All believe males are sentenced to death...there is a difference of opinion regarding women...Hanafi fiqh says the punishment is imprisonment for women until they become Muslim again...

    All the more credible sources than Jadz or anyone giving their opinion on this forum...

    The following hadith is a Bukhari hadith and is classed as sahih and is used by all reputable scholars...

    'Any person (i.e., Muslim) who has changed his religion, kill him'

    This is narrated by Abu Bakr, Uthman, Ali, Muadh ibn Jabal, Abu Musa Ashari, Abdullah ibn Abbas, Khalid ibn Walid among others...

    This is where Jadz leanings are evident...she rejects mutawaatir hadith and she should be clear about the fact that she represents a Quranist perspective...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mithun_minhas View Post
    Does Islam like Christianity believe that Earth is only 6000 yrs old?

    Does Islam teaches us that Earth is flat?

    No, Mithun, Islam does not possess such a belief. The earth and universe are aeons old, the Qur'an states this in several places. The Christians interpret Biblical passages in a literal sense, which is why some of them adhere to the 6000-year-old belief.

    Regarding the shape of the earth: the Qur'an refers to its roundness, through its Verses about the rotation of the sun, moon, and starts, and the movement of the earth itself. Which is why the Early Muslim scholars discovered the real shape of the earth long before the Europeans did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
    My understanding on the subject of apostasy.
    And again, this is based on my personal knowledge.

    There is a case of apostasy when someone is born Muslim and then he leaves Islam on his own will. In this case, there is no Islamic judicial punishment on him. He is free to make this choice.

    Second case, when a non-Muslim converts to Islam and reverts back to path of ignorance because he thought it was not for him etc, then he should be abandoned from living with Muslim community but again, only in a country governed by caliphate system of Islamic judiciary.

    Islam is not a joke or a toy that you can play with whenever you want and leave it whenever you want. This is a serious comittment, so the message is, make sure you know what you are doing when you decide to enter into Islam.

    Third, there is a case where a non-Muslim converts to Islam with the intention to create Fitnah (trouble and division, chaos, misunderstanding, fighting, disintegration, spying etc) among Muslims, and after reaching his goals, he leaves Islam. Then there is punishment where he must be proven guilty in a fair trial in a country that is governed by caliphate under fully implemented Islamic judicial system. And this punishment is not necessarily only death.
    It ranges from minor to capital depending upon the extent and severity of the proven offense.

    Remember, Quran prescribes death penalty ONLY in TWO cases.

    1. If someone takes the life of an innocent human being.

    2. When someone creates Fitnah on earth.

    So if you notice the third case above, the capital punishment, if handed down, is not primarily because of apostasy but because of creating Fitnah.
    Converting to Islam in this case was only disguised to integrate into Muslim community with the wrong intention.
    With all due respect unless you are a scholar of Islam then I don't see how your personal knowledge is relevant...one doesn't ask a layman how to perform open heart surgery so why are layman's sources for Islamic interpretation...this is a scholastic field...

    All respected scholars deem apostasy a crime punishable by death...please don't try and sugarcoat it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sensible-indian-fan View Post
    @Jadz - Thanks for your clear reply.

    For those others who were wondering what post I made, here's it (I wrote it but I wasn't sure whether I was ready for a serious discussion at that time - so I deleted it - I thought I will post it in this same thread at a later date). Now that Jadz saw my post and was kind enough to give a crystal clear reply, I am all ears.





    Cool. So if I understand correctly, its not eternal hell.

    So from your choice of words, I understand that its possible that the hell being referred to is not eternal. I still wonder - If it isn't eternal hell, then why wouldn't it be mentioned clearly? Like one would go to hell for a long time and after that he will out of it.

    Why any ambiguity reg this topic which can be interpreted in various ways?



    Ok, I am a little bit confused reg this part.

    Are you saying God will accept people of all religions and not condemn them to hell just because they followed a different religion?

    Or are you saying God will see if a person had the opportunity to know about Islam and if he had had that opportunity and didn't embrace it during his lifetime, he could be condemned to hell?

    If its the former, cool.

    If its the latter, I have another question.

    Let's say (hypothetically), Christianity (the way it portrays God and the path to attain him) is the truth and all other religions are false. Now everyone of us (Non Christians in this forum) have access to Bible, Christian teachings, etc.

    How many of us would study it like a true Christian would do and then decide if it was right for them? The vast majority of us would still not be likely to embrace another even with all the information at our fingertips.

    What about countless other religions?

    When we are born into a particular family, we get indoctrinated with a certain set of views that the family believes in. Now no matter how logical we may be as humans, our entire outlook towards various religions would be through a biased lens, don't you think? Isn't that precisely why even after 1000's of religious debates among intellectuals, there isn't a consensus on which one is the truth?



    I am not sure why we need a test in the first place.

    But let's assume this is just a test.

    I would like to take an extreme example to ask a question:

    How is it fair that you and I are blessed with a great life with access to a great education, health, wealth and what not and....some poor kids are trafficked to some unknown land, forced into prostitution, beaten up on a daily basis thereby undergoing a life full of misery until they die?

    If all souls are equal, why is it that one soul gets a nice easy test and other soul gets a brutal test?

    Does the poor kid need to be tested this way for its life to have a meaning? Why can't it have a nice meaningful life like us?

    Now don't get me wrong Jadz. I am not presenting this example just for an argument but I fail to see why should there be such a vast disparity in tests? What's the need? And if there is one, why should certain people get the raw end of the deal?

    ---

    Again, thanks for your detailed reply post. Looking forward to your response.

    Well, Sensible-Indian-Fan, I rather liked reading your response, and found it quite interesting and insightful.

    If I may, I would like to address your last point first - not a very scientific approach, but hope you will bear with me.

    Firstly, we should all get this idea that all human beings are equal out of our heads. Nowhere has God ever stated that He created everyone on the same level as everyone else. Physical evidence informs us that human beings are definitely not equal: some are more beautiful than others, some more intelligent, some taller, shorter, lighter, darker, richer, poorer and so on. Thus, equality does not exist, nor has it ever. What God has revealed is that every single soul is sacred in His Sight, and that He has conferred dignity upon human beings. This being the case, those fortunate ones - such as you have described yourself - are honour and duty-bound to reach out to the less fortunate, to share those blessings of God with them, and to work to create just and equitable systems, the means by which all peoples will have access to health and education. Poverty is only a problem when insufficient funds and resources are directed at alleviating it. Further, extreme poverty is a threat to human life, societies and existence, because it creates tremendous suffering, mass death, even civil disturbance and violence. Addressing poverty is a key aspect of faith and religion, which is we see so many religious-based charities. This is where the test lies: those who have been provided for, must share, and must exercise generosity in all their dealings. Where systems of governance generate inequity, they have to be reformed in order to achieve true equity.


    Regarding religions and the question of bias: human beings who are, by nature, thinkers and seekers after the truth, do not simply follow a religion because their forefathers did. For instance, I was born into a Muslim family, went to a Jewish primary school, and sang Christian hymns at high school, I have had - over the course of the years - friends from many different, diverse religious backgrounds. The only thing I inherited from my Parents was independence of thought, and a desire to seek the truth - so that this search led me to Islam, not by default, but by choice. We do not 'follow' religion, we implement its principles and precepts in our day to day lives. God is not a dictator, and knows why people believe what they do, and why they reject religion - and Him - altogether. Often, people turn away from religion because of what they see religious people doing. However, this is not an intelligent response: we cannot walk away from an idea without examining it, researching and studying it. So, religion requires deep thought, profound study. There are many who simply adore the rituals associated with religion, so they reduce it to just that - ritual. But, if we take a close look at history, we will see that the Early Muslims ventured far and wide - in the intellectual as well as actual sense - and in so doing, expanded, broadened and deepened the sum-total of human knowledge. They did not confine religion to ritual, but realised it required greater thought than mere ritual action, it needed intellectual input, which is why they were so inventive, creative and innovative.

    Sometimes, people become too preoccupied with terms - such as 'Islam'. It - Islam - only means 'submission' in the actual and abstract sense. This submission is a system as well as process, the means by which all things submit to the laws instituted by God - such as rising, falling, living, dying, sleeping, awakening, working, resting, and so on. So, Islam is not person or ethnic-centred, like Christianity or Judaism, it is a concept, an idea, which when properly understood becomes eminently sensible and reasonable.

    So, yes, there are countless religions - but which one is the truth? That is for every human being to find out for him or her own self. I cannot say to you: accept this because I know it is the truth. It is for you to discover the truth for yourself, so that you may know it without me, or anyone else, telling you, instructing you. The only thing a Muslim is required to do is to convey the Message, and leave the rest to God - because He is the One who inspires and gives faith.

    As for the rest: God instituted the Day of Judgement in order to adjudicate matters, so that all those differences in belief and divergent opinions will be sorted out by Him. Also, the restoration of justice, punishment for evildoers, and reward for the doers of good. God cold have made human beings follow one religion, but He willed human beings to find their own way to the truth. Ultimately, what matters is the truth, no-one wants to believe in, or follow, falsehood or conjecture. God is the Guide, so we have to trust in His Mercy, Compassion and Wisdom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speed View Post
    Even though I personally have no problem if someone leaves the religion, Your position does not take into account Islamic history and The position of most scholars that apostasy is punishable by death, your view point is a 20th century phenomenon and adopted by the minority Quran only muslims.
    We do not refer to Islamic history and the position of the majority of scholars when dealing with issues which affect all Muslims: of course, the view of learned people is important, but the truth is the Qur'an has no punishment for apostasy, because it is a spiritual offence committed against God, and not a moral or criminal offence, both of which impact upon communities and societies.

    If you read the article I posted regarding this matter, you will find that I have quoted from the Qur'an, in order to highlight how the Verses contradict majority opinion.

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    Why is there so much difference between Quranist and mainstream Islam, so much that Quranists are a fringe group?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    With all due respect unless you are a scholar of Islam then I don't see how your personal knowledge is relevant...one doesn't ask a layman how to perform open heart surgery so why are layman's sources for Islamic interpretation...this is a scholastic field...

    All respected scholars deem apostasy a crime punishable by death...please don't try and sugarcoat it...
    Yes, I am not a scholar in Islam and what I stated was based on my knowledge acquired by reading the works of scholars.

    So to answer your question, yes, my knowledge is irrelevant.

    The question to you; however, is, Would you believe and update your knowledge if what I said is acknowledged and certified by a scholar in Islam?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    Most of what I know about Islam I have learned from interacting with people on this forum. I had asked some questions elsewhere about caliphates and the like. I have a few more questions:

    1. Can the Shia come up with their own caliphates as well? Would this be accepted by Sunnis assuming they fit the criteria that someone provided (must respect civilians, must be able to enforce law and order and provide security both within and without, must be large enough (I'm not sure how large large enough is) and must respect the rights of non-Muslims by making them pay a jizya tax rather than killing them the way ISIS are). Or are Sunni and Shia caliphates mutually exclusive?

    2. How do you determine who the caliph is? Eg. in Christianity the head of the churches (Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, etc) are usually selected by a college of cardinals or the like. Is there a college of imams/ayatollahs that would select the Caliph? How was Caliph Ibrahim selected to be the Caliph?

    3. I had thought that the Quran was the writings of the Prophet Muhammad. I was advised that it is in fact the revelations of the Prophet. Who wrote these revelations down? Was it the same person writing it or different people at different points in time? One of the things I always thought was different about the Quran vs the Bible is that the Bible was written in many different books by many different people over thousands of years, from the Books of Genesis, Exodus etc in the Old Testament (which I think is very similar to the Jewish Torah) all the way to all the different Gospels and other books in the New Testament. As a result because is was written by different people there are a number of contradictions that I thought the Quran didn't have as it was all written by the same person at the same time.

    4. Do you guys think it is still possible and practical to interpret the Quran literally, as it seems like ISIS are doing? With Catholicism (and this obviously varies among the different countries, Catholic orders in developing countries tend to interpret the Bible more literally than people in places like the US and Australia etc), speaking for myself only, I tend to see the Bible more as teachings, and I look at things like the Genesis story (the creation of the world) as something to be seen figuratively, not literally. I try to look more at the point behind what the books in the Bible say. For example, if Jesus says "if your eye is causing you to sin, rip it out, if your hand is causing you to sin, cut if off" I don't see that figuratively, it's more like Him saying "it's better to lose your eyes or hand than to use them to sin". What is the general Islamic position on this? Because I look at places like Saudi Arabia where they do cut off thieves' hands, or at its extreme groups like ISIS where they crucify criminals because, well, that's what was done 1000 years ago. What was good for us then is good for us now sort of thing. Obviously this differs by country and probably even by local group I'm sure, particularly as there is no "head of Islam" to provide a definitive answer, but what is the general thought about "reinterpreting" the Quran to reflect the changes in society from 1000 years ago to today?

    5. Are Muslims who know how to speak Arabic and can thus read the Quran in its original form seen as more knowledgeable than those who have to rely on translations?

    6. Jadz you mentioned that anyone can leave Islam should they desire. What is it in the Quran then that is causing some groups like ISIS or even places in the world like Nigeria where they do punish apostates by death? Is it because this was the penalty 1000 years ago?

    7. What is the qualification to be an imam or mullah? Is there a seminary that they go to to learn theology, discuss the Quran before then going to preach at the mosque?

    8. Is there such a thing as confession and penance and absolution of sins in Islam? In Christianity when we have sinned we (are supposed to) go to confession with a priest, confess our sins (presumably we have to mean it otherwise there's no point), make an act of contrition, the priest gives us penance to do (could be something as simple as saying the rosary while showing remorse for your sins to going to volunteer at a charity or something) and he then forgives us our sins. Is there something similar in Islam? How do you cleanse your soul when you have sinned?

    I think that's about it for now lol

    Thank you for your questions!

    1) The caliphate idea is a political one. Every human being is 'Khalifa' - a successor and inheritor, required to care for his/her immediate family, relatives, community and nation. The concept of governance by a single leader is rooted in the need for unity - unity for believers, protection from aggression, and preservation of the faith. There is no reason why Shi'a cannot be considered as a legitimate leader, but unfortunately - given the sectarian divide - that seems to be highly unlikely. Shi' may accept a Shi'a leader, but the majority of Sunnis may not. As there are many Muslim countries, the best form of unity government would be along the lines of the EU, with a Nato-like military alliance, both of which possessing rotating presidencies, so that all sects, minorities and political parties are represented at some stage.

    2) The way to appoint a leader - president, caliph, whatever - would be through an election process, such as occurs within the EU.

    3) The Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) over the course of 23 years, they were written and compiled at his direction. The Earlier Revelations are not in their original form, they have undergone change and alteration, unlike the Qur'an which remains intact and exactly the same as it was when it was revealed. There are no contradictions in the Qur'an, only those unable to reconcile different passages or verses experience difficulty in understanding it, otherwise the Qur'an is pretty easy to follow and comprehend.

    4) There are passages of the Qur'an which are to be interpreted in a literal sense: such as the prohibition on murder. Other passages cannot, and should not be understood in a literal sense. ISIS are really not a good example, because their actions prove them to be non-Muslims. Islam affords protection to Ahl-Al-Kitaab - People of The Book (Jews and Christians) - as well as all minorities. Further, each of the Laws of the Qur'an rest upon Divine Mercy, those who rampage around the earth, spreading terror, killing indiscriminately, targeting Muslims and minorities alike, are clearly not reflecting the Mercy of God, nor are their actions compatible with Islam - or indeed, with any religion.


    5) Many Arab-speaking peoples cannot understand the Qur'an without translations: however, being able to understand the language of the Qur'an is a great help, in that its Message is received directly, rather than indirectly. However, knowledge of the language does not, by itself, confer real ability to understand the Qur'an. This depends upon level of intellect and engagement of sound reasoning. Being spiritually and intellectually active is important, otherwise religion is reduced to a series of dos and don'ts, as well as unthinking ritual. Reading with understanding is better than not reading at all - which means thinking about what one has just read.

    6) As mentioned earlier, there is no punishment for apostasy in Islam. What ISIS, or Boko Haram in Nigeria, are doing, ought not to be confused with Islam. They are not practising Islam, they are practising criminality, thuggery and evil. All right-thinking individuals must learn about Islam for themselves, so that the media obsession with groups like ISIS does not result in ignorance of the Islamic Message, which rests upon the Mercy of God.

    7) I do not know. Obviously, if one is going to lead congregations in masaajid, then knowledge of the Qur'an, Islam and all things related to them would seem to be a pre-requisite.

    8) Well, Muslims seek the forgiveness of God through prayer, through acts of charity, through good works, Sins can be atoned for by donating to, or helping, the needy, the orphans, the widows, and so on. As there is no priestly caste in Islam - and thus, no difference between the priest and the layman - Muslims repent directly to God. He is the All-Forgiving, the Acceptor of Repentance, the Forgiving One.

    I hope this is helpful - sorry if I missed anything!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
    My understanding on the subject of apostasy.
    And again, this is based on my personal knowledge.

    There is a case of apostasy when someone is born Muslim and then he leaves Islam on his own will. In this case, there is no Islamic judicial punishment on him. He is free to make this choice.

    Second case, when a non-Muslim converts to Islam and reverts back to path of ignorance because he thought it was not for him etc, then he should be abandoned from living with Muslim community but again, only in a country governed by caliphate system of Islamic judiciary.

    Islam is not a joke or a toy that you can play with whenever you want and leave it whenever you want. This is a serious comittment, so the message is, make sure you know what you are doing when you decide to enter into Islam.

    Third, there is a case where a non-Muslim converts to Islam with the intention to create Fitnah (trouble and division, chaos, misunderstanding, fighting, disintegration, spying etc) among Muslims, and after reaching his goals, he leaves Islam. Then there is punishment where he must be proven guilty in a fair trial in a country that is governed by caliphate under fully implemented Islamic judicial system. And this punishment is not necessarily only death.
    It ranges from minor to capital depending upon the extent and severity of the proven offense.

    Remember, Quran prescribes death penalty ONLY in TWO cases.

    1. If someone takes the life of an innocent human being.

    2. When someone creates Fitnah on earth.

    So if you notice the third case above, the capital punishment, if handed down, is not primarily because of apostasy but because of creating Fitnah.
    Converting to Islam in this case was only disguised to integrate into Muslim community with the wrong intention.

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights. To be honest, I have never known of people becoming Muslims in order to spread seditious ideas - Muslims are only to capable of dong that themselves.

    However, you are right, in that the death penalty is extremely limited in Islam. Many forget that. Including the scholarly class - may Allah SWT guide us all to the Right Path.

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    I have seen many posts which states - "Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)". My questions are related to "(pbuh)". Why it is written like that and what is its significance. What other words are there which follows his name , i know of "may peace be upon him". Does this rule apply with other prophets of Islam as well ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    No, Mithun, Islam does not possess such a belief. The earth and universe are aeons old, the Qur'an states this in several places. The Christians interpret Biblical passages in a literal sense, which is why some of them adhere to the 6000-year-old belief.

    Regarding the shape of the earth: the Qur'an refers to its roundness, through its Verses about the rotation of the sun, moon, and starts, and the movement of the earth itself. Which is why the Early Muslim scholars discovered the real shape of the earth long before the Europeans did.
    That's interesting you say that Jadz, that was one of my questions above. I used the Genesis story as an example.
    Obviously every Christian is different as is every Muslim. But even in Catholic schools (which I went to) they teach science not creationism. I always thought that it was Muslims who interpret the Quran literally, which is why you see all the stoning to death, cutting hands off, crucifixions, enslaving infidel women and children etc, killing apostates, because according to ISIS and their scholars those punishments are in the Quran or in the hadiths.

    One of the problems Islam faces is the fact that there are groups, such as ISIS and Boko Haram, that use the name of the religion to push their agenda. I know some people will say "but they are all Western constructs, it's the West's fault" but the reality is that that's where a lot of the fears about Islam come from. In a way I liken it to how we Catholics have to deal with the stigma of having pedophile priests in our religion. So rather than throwing our hands up and blaming the priests we try to do our little bit, do outreach and volunteer work, support missions around the world and educate people that Catholicism is not all about pedophilia and the sins of the organised Catholic Church of the Middle Ages. That yes at the grassroots level we are capable of doing good things in the world.

    Also thanks for answering my questions. I like this thread. It gives us an opportunity to learn about Islam in a non-confrontational way, which might not be the case in other threads where sometimes I feel non-Muslim input is not appreciated or has been perceived as an attack on the religion.
    Last edited by OZGOD; 21st October 2014 at 18:14.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
    Yes, I am not a scholar in Islam and what I stated was based on my knowledge acquired by reading the works of scholars.

    So to answer your question, yes, my knowledge is irrelevant.

    The question to you; however, is, Would you believe and update your knowledge if what I said is acknowledged and certified by a scholar in Islam?
    By all means...provide whatever you like...'certified' might be the discussion to be had however...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    By all means...provide whatever you like...'certified' might be the discussion to be had however...
    So let's discuss this now. What does certified mean to you for an Islamic scholar whom you would believe ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    No, Mithun, Islam does not possess such a belief. The earth and universe are aeons old, the Qur'an states this in several places. The Christians interpret Biblical passages in a literal sense, which is why some of them adhere to the 6000-year-old belief.
    Only a few fundamentalists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Why is there so much difference between Quranist and mainstream Islam, so much that Quranists are a fringe group
    Couldn't have described it better, really
    Last edited by chacha kashmiri; 21st October 2014 at 21:10.


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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Why is there so much difference between Quranist and mainstream Islam, so much that Quranists are a fringe group?
    Quranists aren't even considered a fringe group...they aren't even considered Muslim except by themselves...this is because mainstream Islam requires Muslims follow the Quran (the word of God) and follow the actions of the Prophet and his sayings which are the sunnah and are contained in the hadith for instance...

    Thats why its rather disingenuous of Jadz to speak on the topic without clarifying what her criteria is first...mutawaatir hadith are belief for mainstream Muslims and rejection of this is shirk...

    And no this isn't some extreme Wahabi view...this is a mainstream view...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
    So let's discuss this now. What does certified mean to you for an Islamic scholar whom you would believe ?
    Here is the thing...I am satisfied the classical scholars got this correct...ijtihad is only required for new realities...and apostasy is not a new reality...there has up until recent time been a consensus by scholars on this very topic...and that is apostasy is death...

    Scholarship is actually at its WEAKEST currently because there is no Islamic state and most scholars actually adhere to the needs and wants of unislamic dictators and scholarship today is very much agenda driven...

    Modern scholarship is only interesting to me when addressing new realities e.g. cloning...

    There was recently a South African 'scholar' who said homosexuality is halal...what do you think of this opinion?...like apostasy consensus has always opposed homosexuality...we live in an age where you have people trying to make Islam as palatable as possible to the masses...and essentially act as apologists...

    But anyhow who is your scholar and what are his credentials?...and why have you chosen to follow his opinion?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Quranists aren't even considered a fringe group...they aren't even considered Muslim except by themselves...this is because mainstream Islam requires Muslims follow the Quran (the word of God) and follow the actions of the Prophet and his sayings which are the sunnah and are contained in the hadith for instance...

    Thats why its rather disingenuous of Jadz to speak on the topic without clarifying what her criteria is first...mutawaatir hadith are belief for mainstream Muslims and rejection of this is shirk...

    And no this isn't some extreme Wahabi view...this is a mainstream view...
    What is a Quranist? Someone who takes the Quran literally?


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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    What is a Quranist? Someone who takes the Quran literally?
    Based on what I have understood so far - Some one who takes concepts only from Quran and ignores other Islamic religious scriptures.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Quranists aren't even considered a fringe group...they aren't even considered Muslim except by themselves...this is because mainstream Islam requires Muslims follow the Quran (the word of God) and follow the actions of the Prophet and his sayings which are the sunnah and are contained in the hadith for instance...

    Thats why its rather disingenuous of Jadz to speak on the topic without clarifying what her criteria is first...mutawaatir hadith are belief for mainstream Muslims and rejection of this is shirk...

    And no this isn't some extreme Wahabi view...this is a mainstream view...
    It might not be the right analogy but Quranists are similar to Qadiyanis. They reject Prophet Muhammad [Peace be Upon Him] as the last Prophet and Quranists do not adhere to the teachnings of our Prophet. Agree with all the posts Shaykh has been posting on this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Based on what I have understood so far - Some one who takes concepts only from Quran and ignores other Islamic religious scriptures.
    I assume this is only wherever there is a direct contradiction to the Quran's message? For example that apostasy example which Jadz used when compared to the no compulsion message in Quran. Of course I am completely ignorant here so just my guess


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    Wonderful thread BTW and so far it seems to be going in the right direction despite some opposing views. Hope that trend continues.

    Couple of questions from my side

    1) As far as I know idol worshipers are considered the most sinful people according to Islam. Is there any chance of salvation for them because of their deeds. For example, a human being who has always helped everyone and done only good deeds and had good thoughts. However, he is an idol worshiper. What is Islam's stance on this? (I know final judgement will be only God's but what is the general opinion on this?) How does the idol worshiper's chances look like in comparison with someone like a terrorist who kills innocents but lets assume prays and fasts and believes in one God?

    2) Based on 1, what is more important then, moral behavior or belief in God? If later, then why do some believers think morality is a direct consequence of religion?
    Last edited by Indiafan; 22nd October 2014 at 06:01.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 10sion View Post
    It might not be the right analogy but Quranists are similar to Qadiyanis. They reject Prophet Muhammad [Peace be Upon Him] as the last Prophet and Quranists do not adhere to the teachnings of our Prophet. Agree with all the posts Shaykh has been posting on this thread.
    Are all Quarnists like this or are you also including people who doubt some hadiths because they think it contradicts some message of the Quran? Because in my opinion some people just like to label others like this in order to avoid their uncomfortable questions

    I apologize in advance if you think I am hurting anyone here and feel free to ignore the question too


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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    What is a Quranist? Someone who takes the Quran literally?
    Quranists are a relatively new phenomena...they are people who only take the Quran as a source for Islam...its basically rejection of Muhammad cos they only deem Allahs words as relevant...

    Hadith for instance are the sayings and actions on the Prophet which mainstream Muslims take as part of belief...and Quranists reject it...

    Its cos of that im saying Jadz is disingenuous cos she doesnt even provide her criteria as a disclaimer...its a deliberate attempt to mislead...

    Simple examples...we know zakat is an obligation according to the Quran...the 2.5% figure is from hadith...

    Many Quranists only pray three times a day and the method for prayer is determined from hadith...

    They don't even believe in the return of the Mahdi or dajjal...

    Jadz and her ilk are entitled to believe what they like...and i'm not judging her sincerity...but the point is its wrong to claim to be representing something you aren't...if there other Quranists on the forum then by all means her views are valid...

    However what she is doing is no different from an Ahmadi providing mainstream Muslims with Islamic rulings...

    Simply questions for Jadz:

    Do you believe in the authenticity of mutawaatir hadith?
    Who are your favorite scholars?
    How many times should a Muslim pray and what is the method for prayer?

    No-one is stopping you from expressing your views...you are free to do so...and im not gonna turn this into s Quranist V Non Quranist debate...just state what your position and criteria are...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    Are all Quarnists like this or are you also including people who doubt some hadiths because they think it contradicts some message of the Quran? Because in my opinion some people just like to label others like this in order to avoid their uncomfortable questions

    I apologize in advance if you think I am hurting anyone here and feel free to ignore the question too
    Verses in the Quran contradict each other...so how does one decide which verses are correct?...specific verses even abrogate others...so contradictions openly exist in the Quran...

    As for hadith there is a specific science behind their collation...chain of narration...and not whether 'this verse sounds like one i like'...

    So labeling isn't avoiding difficult questions it is what it is...Quranists are not considered Muslims except by themselves, the same as Ahmadis...

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    A shame really that a thread like this turns into an accusation thread whereby anybody with a different outlook is considered non Muslim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeetu View Post
    I have seen many posts which states - "Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)". My questions are related to "(pbuh)". Why it is written like that and what is its significance. What other words are there which follows his name , i know of "may peace be upon him". Does this rule apply with other prophets of Islam as well ?


    Yes, whenever any of God's Prophets are mentioned, the words 'peace be upon him' - or, 'pbuh' - are written. The same with Mary, Mother of Jesus, the letters 'pbuh' or peace be upon her, are written following her name. It is a sign of honour, respect and reverence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    I will point out as a disclaimer for those who want to learn that Jadz is providing her OWN interpretations...which is fine providing she actually has scholastic credentials...if not then its like taking Islam from any random joe...
    Dear shaykh, could you please provide any proof that anyone is a scholar of anything at all and that there is any particular criterion available for that and that that criterion is accepted by all everywhere? If we can answer this question satisfactorily then we can take this argument further otherwise it is very stupid to use an argument that has no real basis. Even in court of law an individual has the right to defend oneself despite having no legal qualifications. This is why a person is asked if he needs a lawyer or not. Only if one asks for one one is provided with one.

    Also the truth lies in the explanation one offers for proving a point or claim and not in one's qualifications. If statement explains things satisfactorily then the point is accepted otherwise rejected even if you have all the qualifications you can find in the world. It is because an explanation is either true or false, it works or it does not.

    When any two parties argue over a point, they could both be wrong or only one of them could be right.



    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    To give a parallel I myself have never ever provided my own interpretation as I am no scholar...what I have always provided is scholastic opinion...and when there is difference of opinion and no consensus among scholarship i have stated as much...
    Anyone is free to express one's opinion because whatever one says is either right or wrong and just because someone has expressed an opinion it does not mean it is necessarily right or necessarily wrong just because it is an opinion expressed by someone. Anyone who is using an opinion can only use it to support or oppose an argument. In that case you are using it as your own opinion because it is you who thinks it supports your point of view and that is the reason you are using it otherwise where can we find sense in using an opinion of another? Why will anyone take this line of reasoning unless one wanted to shoot at others but at the same time wanted to remain distant from it as well so that one is not spotted as an attacker.



    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    For Jadz to say outright that there is no punishment for apostasy goes against reputable scholarship...at the very least what she should state is that the majority of scholars say there is a punishment but based on her own scholarship she deems that there isn't...

    And frankly I think the likes of Abu Hanifa and Ibn Kathir who has done the most reputable tafsir of Quran have more credibility than some random on the internet which Jadz is...
    Majority or minority does not matter in deen of islam, what matters is truth that makes sense. There is no automatic standard that because so and so has said something therefore it is right and if anyone else says something it is wrong. Deen of islam is anti personality cult. It tells people to find whatever is right regarding any matter and support it. You may think this is right about something and I may think that is right about it but whoever can explain the thing best is standing on the right spot and must be supported. hindus have their own ideas about hinduism, jews have their own ideas about judaism, christians have their own ideas about christianity likewise muslims too have ideas about islam. Whoever can explain the world as it exists the best is the one who is right and all the rest are wrong. It is because the best explanation is the one that explains things the best and not because it comes from hindus or christians or muslims etc etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Out of interest Jadz cos you have always been fairly ambiguous on this point...what is your criteria out of interest?...do you believe in mutawaatir hadith?...at least this way people know you are judging from the same criteria as them...
    Of course this is for jads to answer but in my view it is not the right question. It is not right because the real question is what is authentic criterion for judging authenticity of islamic sources of information and muslims.

    For that I will invite people to go through my work on the quran which is still in progress.

    http://yopakistan.com/religion-forum...#axzz2vNFeOMSw

    regards and all the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    Are all Quarnists like this or are you also including people who doubt some hadiths because they think it contradicts some message of the Quran? Because in my opinion some people just like to label others like this in order to avoid their uncomfortable questions

    I apologize in advance if you think I am hurting anyone here and feel free to ignore the question too
    That depends from person to person and the best way to answer that will be to just to ask the quranists - that do they reject hadiths altogether? As for hadiths, there are authentic, weak and fabricated hadiths. But the Quran is free from errors. The hadiths have been heard and narrated by humans so errors/contradictions can take place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    That's interesting you say that Jadz, that was one of my questions above. I used the Genesis story as an example.
    Obviously every Christian is different as is every Muslim. But even in Catholic schools (which I went to) they teach science not creationism. I always thought that it was Muslims who interpret the Quran literally, which is why you see all the stoning to death, cutting hands off, crucifixions, enslaving infidel women and children etc, killing apostates, because according to ISIS and their scholars those punishments are in the Quran or in the hadiths.

    One of the problems Islam faces is the fact that there are groups, such as ISIS and Boko Haram, that use the name of the religion to push their agenda. I know some people will say "but they are all Western constructs, it's the West's fault" but the reality is that that's where a lot of the fears about Islam come from. In a way I liken it to how we Catholics have to deal with the stigma of having pedophile priests in our religion. So rather than throwing our hands up and blaming the priests we try to do our little bit, do outreach and volunteer work, support missions around the world and educate people that Catholicism is not all about pedophilia and the sins of the organised Catholic Church of the Middle Ages. That yes at the grassroots level we are capable of doing good things in the world.

    Also thanks for answering my questions. I like this thread. It gives us an opportunity to learn about Islam in a non-confrontational way, which might not be the case in other threads where sometimes I feel non-Muslim input is not appreciated or has been perceived as an attack on the religion.

    I completely agree with you, in that it is very convenient for Muslims to blame the evil West for ISIS, Boko Haram and the rest. This absolves Muslims of all responsibility, and shifts focus elsewhere. Whilst there is no doubt Western meddling in the ME has resulted in chaos, confusion, division and disunity, the truth is if Muslims were in a reasonable state - without extreme inequities evident everywhere, as well as sectarian, tribal and nationalistic divisions - outside forces could not have created such chaos so easily and quickly.

    ISIS may be compared to the many Christian Crusades, sanctioned by the Church, wherein other Christian denominations, Jews and Muslims were massacred, and an attempt to 'purify' the Holy Land of 'infidels' was the purpose of these crusades. Some Muslims believe that the crusader mentality lives on, and that the campaigns against Islam/Muslims continues on, but in different forms, and with different guises. This may be true. However, the unfortunate reality is that there are extremist Muslims, who reject all those who differ from them.

    Even on the internet, these extremists operate, targeting anyone who offers a different perspective from majority view. I myself have experienced this extremism, on PP and FB, and know that this is far from the true Message of Islam, which is all about conveying God's Revelations with knowledge, wisdom, humility, patience and respect.

    Regarding the Catholic Church, I feel that it too is targeted by mainstream media - similar to Islam/Muslims - because it opposes homosexuality, contraception, and is firm in its beliefs and traditions. There are those liberal forces which want every ideology different from its own to change, and become an imitation or echo of itself.

    We have to learn tolerance and respect, as well as educate ourselves about the different religions in the world, because it is only through learning and knowledge will we all realise how similar we really are.

    God bless!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
    So let's discuss this now. What does certified mean to you for an Islamic scholar whom you would believe ?
    If it's the same shaykh who allegedly converted to Islam, then left Islam, and now spends a considerable amount of time denigrading Islam under the guise of being an expert on the subject, then the question of which 'Islamic scholar' he believes is meaningless. If however, this is a totally different shaykh, then my apologies to him.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Only a few fundamentalists.

    Thanks for the clarification, Robert.

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    What Do You Know About Islam?
    Enough.
    To keep me happy and comfortable vis-a-vis my beliefs and practices. Otherwise there is google.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    What is a Quranist? Someone who takes the Quran literally?


    OZGOOD, what we are witnessing on this thread is the type of intolerance to difference which - ultimately - leads to kind of extremisn characterised by ISIS.

    There are Muslims who do not know how to deal with disagreements, how to deal with difference of opinion, or how to deal with divergent views when expressed, or manifested. Thus, all manner of terms are invented in order to discredit Muslims who offer alternative, independent views.

    You mentioned earlier how the West is routinely blamed for the mess in the Muslim world - or, for creating groups like ISIS, and as I said, Muslims themselves are to blame, because they simply cannot and will not allow for free-flowing debate and discussion, without resorting to name-calling. For instance: note how often Muslims are dismissed because they are not - according to their adversaries - 'scholars'. However, as there is no priestly-layman distinction in Islam, there is also no other distinction. All Muslims are permitted to engage in intellectual activity, required to engage in study and research, but there are some who want accreditation or recommendation from some 'higher' authority. I am happy to state that such hierarchies only exist within Muslim communities and societies, but not in Islam.

    So, to answer your question: there is no such word as 'Qur'anist' - it is a derogatory term employed to describe Muslims who do not believe in Hadith, compilations of the sayings/doings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Anyway, no-one has a monopoly on knowledge, truth or God's Revelations - they are open and available to all. Only those with closed, narrow minds - who lean towards extremism on account of their intolerance and hate - would try to shut down dissent or difference of opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Why is there so much difference between Quranist and mainstream Islam, so much that Quranists are a fringe group?
    Dear CricketCartoons, the basic fact is we each have our own brains and life experiences and therefore individual opinions about all things. Likewise people have various opinions about the quranic text depending upon what they have learned in their lives and how they look at things.

    God is God so when he talks about things he states facts about them as he knows them but we being human beings take time to learn and due to various humanly limitations end up looking at the very same things very differently. From childhood to grown up adults we keep changing our minds about things because that is the natural thing to do.

    Since human societies have been structured in so many different ways so various people support or oppose things the way they see fit so muslims are not any different. World was taken over by powerful people who ran it as it suited them and God sent messengers and books to guide humanity to a better way of life but people take time to learn so the world changes for the better but in very small steps. What we see today is accumulation of all past generations of people from everywhere in the world. As people keep interacting and bringing their perspectives of looking at the world time will come when people will become united. There is no such thing as sects in deen of islam, this is just people who identify each other by various names to show each other how they look at things in light of what they know from their perspective of things. However due to ignorance, illiteracy and lack of proper education on one hand and lack of interest in learning on the other and for various other reasons people get involved with each other in a very negative way. However, outcome of all interactions is still a move in the right direction though it is a very painful and slow process of moving in the right direction but that is the way people have chosen for themselves instead of the way they should have. Primary source of deen of islam is quran alone because it is word of God. Hadis and fiqh are secondary sources about deen of islam because they are works of people.

    regards and all the best.

    Last edited by Mughal; 22nd October 2014 at 16:19.

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    Last edited by Mughal; 22nd October 2014 at 15:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    Wonderful thread BTW and so far it seems to be going in the right direction despite some opposing views. Hope that trend continues.

    Couple of questions from my side

    1) As far as I know idol worshipers are considered the most sinful people according to Islam. Is there any chance of salvation for them because of their deeds. For example, a human being who has always helped everyone and done only good deeds and had good thoughts. However, he is an idol worshiper. What is Islam's stance on this? (I know final judgement will be only God's but what is the general opinion on this?) How does the idol worshiper's chances look like in comparison with someone like a terrorist who kills innocents but lets assume prays and fasts and believes in one God?

    2) Based on 1, what is more important then, moral behavior or belief in God? If later, then why do some believers think morality is a direct consequence of religion?

    Good questions, Indiafan.

    1) God does not punish human beings, or communities, only because they engage in idol-worship: He does so if they persistin mistreating each other, behave tyrannically or oppress and persecute people. There are idol-worshippers who conduct themselves better than Muslims - so attitude, behaviour, conduct, character all count in the Sight of God.

    As for idol-worship itself: the reason it is prohibited is because it creates a material barrier between the Creator and worshipper - when direct access to Him is on offer, why go through mediators or intercessors. Also, as God is the Creator, it is wrong to ascribe His Qualities are Attributes to anyone or anything else, because nothing and no-one has Power and Ability except for Him. It is like a human being invents something, and then people begin ascribing to others the idea as well as the making of this invention. It is unjust and unfair - as well as untrue.

    2) Moral behaviour is an absolute must, without it faith is rendered meaningless and pointless. The whole purpose of religion is righteous conduct and good deeds, behaving with justice and ensuring equity in society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Quranists are a relatively new phenomena...they are people who only take the Quran as a source for Islam...its basically rejection of Muhammad cos they only deem Allahs words as relevant...

    Hadith for instance are the sayings and actions on the Prophet which mainstream Muslims take as part of belief...and Quranists reject it...

    Its cos of that im saying Jadz is disingenuous cos she doesnt even provide her criteria as a disclaimer...its a deliberate attempt to mislead...

    Simple examples...we know zakat is an obligation according to the Quran...the 2.5% figure is from hadith...

    Many Quranists only pray three times a day and the method for prayer is determined from hadith...

    They don't even believe in the return of the Mahdi or dajjal...

    Jadz and her ilk are entitled to believe what they like...and i'm not judging her sincerity...but the point is its wrong to claim to be representing something you aren't...if there other Quranists on the forum then by all means her views are valid...

    However what she is doing is no different from an Ahmadi providing mainstream Muslims with Islamic rulings...

    Simply questions for Jadz:

    Do you believe in the authenticity of mutawaatir hadith?
    Who are your favorite scholars?
    How many times should a Muslim pray and what is the method for prayer?

    No-one is stopping you from expressing your views...you are free to do so...and im not gonna turn this into s Quranist V Non Quranist debate...just state what your position and criteria are...

    If you want to know - and understand - my position, I suggest you read through the many threads, and comments, I have posted on PP.

    For the rest: with all due respect to you, I do not answer to you, or anyone else, so do not assume the role of God, or that of judge. Hasbee-Allah SWT.

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    Why the prejudice against left handers? What is the big deal if a left hander eats with his left hand (which I do btw)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    A shame really that a thread like this turns into an accusation thread whereby anybody with a different outlook is considered non Muslim.

    DV - there are people on PP who make it their business to follow me around, take my words and then distort their meaning. These are the intolerant ones, whose ideologies are veering on the extreme. If such extremism is not combatted and confronted, we end up with the Boko Harams and ISIS' in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    If it's the same shaykh who allegedly converted to Islam, then left Islam, and now spends a considerable amount of time denigrading Islam under the guise of being an expert on the subject, then the question of which 'Islamic scholar' he believes is meaningless. If however, this is a totally different shaykh, then my apologies to him.
    Yes it is the same person...

    And this concept seems very difficult for you to understand but its really quite straightforward...

    Islam is now an academic pursuit...can one not speak on something without believing in it first?...I studied marxism in detail at university...does that make me a Marxist?...Theology is no different...

    Believing in a scholars legitimacy doesn't suggest I like the results...it simply means i respect that person ability to interpret the religion...I can again respect a scholars work without believing in it...cos i don't believe in Islam...this doesnt mean the scholars ability of interpretation is at fault...

    The discussion is on mainstream Islam...no-one in their right mind would state that Ahmedis hold a mainstream belief...and no-one in their right mind would state Quranists hold a mainstream belief...you're free to believe what you like...but the issue being discussed here is one of misrepresentation...

    Also my dislike for Islam doesn't mean I misrepresent it...this is a slant on my sincerity...and at no point have i ever fronted about my position on anything...
    Last edited by shaykh; 22nd October 2014 at 16:16.

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    Mughal - thank you Brother, for your intelligent and reasoned posts. I hope to read through your works, as soon as time permits. May God increase in you knowledge and wisdom, and guide us all to the truth. Ameen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    OZGOOD, what we are witnessing on this thread is the type of intolerance to difference which - ultimately - leads to kind of extremisn characterised by ISIS.

    There are Muslims who do not know how to deal with disagreements, how to deal with difference of opinion, or how to deal with divergent views when expressed, or manifested. Thus, all manner of terms are invented in order to discredit Muslims who offer alternative, independent views.

    You mentioned earlier how the West is routinely blamed for the mess in the Muslim world - or, for creating groups like ISIS, and as I said, Muslims themselves are to blame, because they simply cannot and will not allow for free-flowing debate and discussion, without resorting to name-calling. For instance: note how often Muslims are dismissed because they are not - according to their adversaries - 'scholars'. However, as there is no priestly-layman distinction in Islam, there is also no other distinction. All Muslims are permitted to engage in intellectual activity, required to engage in study and research, but there are some who want accreditation or recommendation from some 'higher' authority. I am happy to state that such hierarchies only exist within Muslim communities and societies, but not in Islam.

    So, to answer your question: there is no such word as 'Qur'anist' - it is a derogatory term employed to describe Muslims who do not believe in Hadith, compilations of the sayings/doings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Anyway, no-one has a monopoly on knowledge, truth or God's Revelations - they are open and available to all. Only those with closed, narrow minds - who lean towards extremism on account of their intolerance and hate - would try to shut down dissent or difference of opinion.
    This is what I mean about misrepresentation Jadz...you're suggesting disagreement with the Quranist perspective is an extreme position when if anything your position is an extreme one...

    It is not ISIS who disagree with the Quranist perspective...Muslims on the whole do...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlyVenom View Post
    A shame really that a thread like this turns into an accusation thread whereby anybody with a different outlook is considered non Muslim.
    It's more about whether the person providing answers is qualified to do so and whether they are misrepresenting...and what their criteria is...i wouldn't ask a Mormon if I wanted to know what Protestants believe...sure Jadz can hold a different believe but to suggest that the likes of ISIS are the only ones who view Quranists as deviant is nonsense frankly...mutawaatir hadith form a core of Islamic belief for Ahle sunnah wal jamaa...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    If you want to know - and understand - my position, I suggest you read through the many threads, and comments, I have posted on PP.

    For the rest: with all due respect to you, I do not answer to you, or anyone else, so do not assume the role of God, or that of judge. Hasbee-Allah SWT.
    I have read your threads Jadz hence my questions...

    It isn't about answering to me...but surely the people you are providing information to should know if you're using the same criteria as they are...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    Good questions, Indiafan.

    1) God does not punish human beings, or communities, only because they engage in idol-worship: He does so if they persistin mistreating each other, behave tyrannically or oppress and persecute people. There are idol-worshippers who conduct themselves better than Muslims - so attitude, behaviour, conduct, character all count in the Sight of God.

    As for idol-worship itself: the reason it is prohibited is because it creates a material barrier between the Creator and worshipper - when direct access to Him is on offer, why go through mediators or intercessors. Also, as God is the Creator, it is wrong to ascribe His Qualities are Attributes to anyone or anything else, because nothing and no-one has Power and Ability except for Him. It is like a human being invents something, and then people begin ascribing to others the idea as well as the making of this invention. It is unjust and unfair - as well as untrue.

    2) Moral behaviour is an absolute must, without it faith is rendered meaningless and pointless. The whole purpose of religion is righteous conduct and good deeds, behaving with justice and ensuring equity in society.
    Thank you so much Jadz. Are there any verses which say this directly? Because most people I have met actually tell me diffferently


    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. --Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Quranists aren't even considered a fringe group...they aren't even considered Muslim except by themselves...this is because mainstream Islam requires Muslims follow the Quran (the word of God) and follow the actions of the Prophet and his sayings which are the sunnah and are contained in the hadith for instance...

    Thats why its rather disingenuous of Jadz to speak on the topic without clarifying what her criteria is first...mutawaatir hadith are belief for mainstream Muslims and rejection of this is shirk...

    And no this isn't some extreme Wahabi view...this is a mainstream view...
    There is no such thing as a Quranist as far as I am aware, but to put the hadith on the same par as the Quran just doesn't make sense. Yes you can have a scholar give his opinion or fatwa for what that's worth, but it can't be worth that much since the vast majority of the Muslim world don't follow those opinions in reality. Even the majority of the scholars today don't follow one opinion otherwise everyone would be pledging allegiance to ISIS and it would be game over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeetu View Post
    I have seen many posts which states - "Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)". My questions are related to "(pbuh)". Why it is written like that and what is its significance. What other words are there which follows his name , i know of "may peace be upon him". Does this rule apply with other prophets of Islam as well ?
    Dear jeetu, words used with names of the prophets are for indicating the fact that they worked for the peace in the world among human beings and we are grateful to God for his guidance and his messengers for their efforts for trying to help people be human beings as they should be. This is not limited to messengers of Allah only but is same for all other such people as work for peace among mankind. Not only that it means Allah helps or supports people through his guidance and so do his missionaries so all who accept his message should also support him in his mission for unity, peace, progress and prosperity of mankind.

    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/33/43/default.htm

    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/33/56/default.htm


    regards and all the best.
    Last edited by Mughal; 22nd October 2014 at 17:37.

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    Thankyou Jadz and Mughal for the reply.


    Aaj ka kaam kal karo, Kal ka kaam parson. Aisi bhi jaldi kya hai, Jab jeena hai barson.

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