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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Oh of course there are conditions...you cant just go and buy yourself a slave...first condition is there must be a Caliphate...

    If there is a Caliphate one would hope they wouldn't reintroduce slavery...ie things like tributes or importation...what is likely to stay is attaining women through war...and of course all of this had to mandated by a Caliph...so in short not for you ...

    In regards to masturbation there are the likes of Shafi who say it is haram...the likes of Hanbal say it is makrooh...upto you what you wanna do with that info...try and make sure you don't pick based on whats preferable to you...

    Lol at long first glances ...

    In terms of the punishments...its important to understand that the orthodox position on Islam is that Muslims follow the Quran as that is Allah's revelation...within the Quran and revelation Muslims are told to obey Allah AND his Messenger...so in addition to following Allah one also follows the sayings and actions of the Prophet as contained within the hadith...the hadith tends to elaborate on what is in the Quran...eg the Quran will state something is forbidden and then the hadith will provide the punishment...

    You can repent...ie if you feel genuine remorse and ask for forgiveness then hope for the best...

    And good on you for finding a comfort zone in terms of linking your personal feelings to your faith...
    Reading some stuff online it's not just caliphate, it's complicated. Even with a caliphate it wouldn't be allowed. Plus the whole concubine thing was made for that time period? it makes you wonder why certain things haven't changed with times, Understand the importance of not diverting from the word of god itself but with other things where there is room for leniency adjustments need to be made.

    And then there's the question when it comes to the authenticity of hadith, correct me if am wrong but as far as Punishments are concerned Quran is not specific. And it seems the punishments which religious figures have created for things which are "forbidden in the Quran" were more less in touch with that particular time period. Ever since not much has changed but perhaps if we had leaders like Salahudeen Ayubi he'd be in touch with the time period.

    That's pretty much what most people do I guess and it has to be sincere, but you'll always have that burden of knowing you are supposed to be punished for what you did.

    Yeah, there are a lot of people that deep down disagree with certain things but they dare not question it. It's probably better to make peace with the fact that you're not happy about something but that doesn't necessarily question the strength of your faith


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Reading some stuff online it's not just caliphate, it's complicated. Even with a caliphate it wouldn't be allowed. Plus the whole concubine thing was made for that time period? it makes you wonder why certain things haven't changed with times, Understand the importance of not diverting from the word of god itself but with other things where there is room for leniency adjustments need to be made.

    And then there's the question when it comes to the authenticity of hadith, correct me if am wrong but as far as Punishments are concerned Quran is not specific. And it seems the punishments which religious figures have created for things which are "forbidden in the Quran" were more less in touch with that particular time period. Ever since not much has changed but perhaps if we had leaders like Salahudeen Ayubi he'd be in touch with the time period.

    That's pretty much what most people do I guess and it has to be sincere, but you'll always have that burden of knowing you are supposed to be punished for what you did.

    Yeah, there are a lot of people that deep down disagree with certain things but they dare not question it. It's probably better to make peace with the fact that you're not happy about something but that doesn't necessarily question the strength of your faith

    Here's the thing...I find that a lot of modern scholarship is designed in order to appear palatable or liberal...

    And the idea of Islam is its timeless...so most things unless stated are general...people sometimes try and do things in reverse by stating it is specific to that time...but the verses often aren't worded in that way and old school scholarship also doesn't operate in that fashion...there is general consensus on most things...and its worth noting that on the subject of concubinage it isn't obligatory or anything...its just acceptable with of course the mandate of a Caliph...

    Its not really about the Quran not being specific...it just obviously doesn't address everything in detail...hence the requirement for authentic hadith...what does exist in Islam is the concept of ijtihad which is the deduction of a hukm from the text when dealing with a new reality...so for instance scholars today will use that to address new realities such as cloning for instance...existing rules wont be amended...so the lashes for the fornicator is still the punishment now as it was then because Islam addresses fornication...its a reality that existed then and now so the rule remains...

    Its natural for ration to clash with rules...and that needn't be a bad thing in the big scheme of things...if you believe Islam to be a test then I guess that makes something more challenging...

  3. #483
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  4. #484
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    Last edited by Muhammad10; 21st December 2016 at 21:36.

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    You can't drink

    You can't smoke

    You can't have a girl friend

    You can't have sex before marriage, you can't masturbate either

    You will burn in hell if you don't pray 5 times a day

    People that want to walk away from the religion have to be punished by death

    Gay people have to be punished by death to I think

    People who have "unlawful" sexual relations have to be stoned to death

    If you steal your hands have to be chopped off

    There's no room for any kind of mistake, if you don't take the punishment for your mistake in this life you will be punished in the after life. That involves various special grave punishments designed for specific misbehaviours etc and off course there is the hell fire punishment to




    Still though, the concept of God and Worship is quiet clear and it makes sense so I believe in Allah and the prophets. But there's stuff I don't agree with, in particular all the punishments. I wish there was a bit of leniency.
    Dear shaz, as I already explained the main source for way of life called islam is the quran and in my opinion it is only so because it is based on facts as explained by me already.

    In the quran God tells us he has created us knowing nothing at all when we are born into this world but he has given us brains, senses, bodies and provision to learn and do things. That is how we become sensible by becoming self aware and aware of real world realities. For our learning he created other things to observe them and see what they do and how they do it and thereby become logical and consistent in our thinking about things. Once we have learned sufficiently it is then we are given revelation to seek guidance from as to how to live in this world and why or how not to live in this world and why not. All this in order to fulfil his purpose for our creation.

    Since the quran is based on facts as far as it can be verified by human beings, it proves thereby that it was revealed by God. Not only that but by clearly explaining for us how we should live he provides us with another irrefutable proof because no human being could ever come up with the idea of a way of life that is explained in the quran. Not only that but we are also told that no matter whichever way of life we will adopt it will always lead us into life of hell and therefore will keep forcing us to make changes in our adopted ways of life till we have reached the properly balanced way of life. This is why the quran is very clear that humanity will in time come to realise that the only way it can live properly is by adopting the way of life advised by God and that is only because that way of life will lead mankind to blissful, dignified and secure existence. This is what is mean by deen of islam will prevail over all other ways of life. The main reason is because all other ways of life will be based upon personal gains at the expense of each other and so long as people will live on basis of that way of life rivalries, divisions, animosities and therefore hatred and wars will not come to an end because world will always be plunged into civil strife and wars or cycle of bloody revolutions throughout the world. It is because every now and then people will keep rising up against atrocities some people will commit against the others in various ways using their tricks and mechanisms. So it is up to people themselves how they wish to live ie peacefully as a proper human community according to guidance of God or as warmongering nut cases trying to dominate each other by trying to undermine each other instead of being supportive and helpful to each other to the degree that ensures well being of all people in the world. Our human history is full of cases wherein we can see clearly that humanity has faired very badly so far.

    What messengers of Allah did is also told in the quran and whatever is told in the quran is the proven truth because it is logically consistent when interpreted in light of real world realities so anything according to that found in the other accounts by people is also authentic and anything in opposition to that is not true but is invented by vested interest parties as it is done today so that they could justify what they believe and do as rulers, money lenders, mullahs, their touts and supporters.

    As far as deen of islam is concerned, there is no concept of rule of man over man because Allah alone is rulers of this universe. Despite this concept in the quran people claiming to be muslims justified rule of man over man that is why some people ended up claiming to be muslims as well as kings of muslims or master and slaves, which divided the ummah. Since one could not be a king among muslims so mullahs misinterpreted and misrepresented the quran to ummah to accommodate this concept and that is how they made imperialism accepted as real islam. Anyone who opposed them was murdered in cold blood if they could do so simply by declaring a person an apostate of deen of islam.

    In deen of islam there is no concept of use of money because muslims are supposed to be a single family or a brotherhood so there is no concept of buying from each other or selling to each other in deen of islam. It is because if you have something you share it with the rest and if you do not then rest are supposed to share it with you so need for buying and selling does not arise in the ummah. However once imperialism took over and it was legitimised through misinterpretation and misrepresentation of scripture. All people started using money and bought and sold things and so brotherhood among muslims fell apart. This is how muslims themselves turned money lenders and they started buying and selling muslims as slaves yet called all this islam.

    In deen of islam there was no concept of mullaism but when people became kings they also employed some people as palace clergies and so was born mullaism in the name of isalm as well and it became accepted as part of islam. This is how the way of life called deen of islam became religion of islam ie merely a made up dogmatic creed with some useless rituals. So what mullahs push forth as deen of islam is not the actual deen of islam that is found within pages of the quran.

    This is why whatever we have in books other than the quran is very much a suspect as to what its origin or purpose is. Most of the things can be explained away by reinterpretations but some may well be false but people have not worked on the quran or hadith or history to sort out things which I have pointed out very clearly for people who have the needed knowledge to do so. So all this is going to take time.

    Since we have people with vested interest within muslims therefore whatever they attribute to the prophet or God is only trustable if it fits in with the framework of deen of islam otherwise it is invented to try legitimise unislamic things as islamic.

    This is why things attributed to the prophet or the quran as words of Allah or deeds of his messenger are only acceptable if they fit in with what actual deen of islam is otherwise they must be rejected and that is why deen of islam must be accepted on basis of the quran and then on basis of the hadith and then on basis of fiqh or history etc etc. Just because something is in a hadith book, it does not automatically mean it is true unless it meets the set standard as I have already explained. So if anyone wants to know what kind of people messengers of Allah were, study the surah which deals with this issue. In the quran there is a chapter called AL ANBIYAA=the messengers, it is chapter number 21.

    A person will be very foolish to take accounts of one's enemies and decide the matter according to them alone without first knowing what the actual accounts are. Mullahs are enemies of deen of islam not its defenders as they pretend to be. It is lack of education in muslim countries that is keeping mullahs in business in muslim countries because this way rulers can be kept in place and so money lenders do not need to worry because they are well defended by those whom they back during wars or election campaigns or whatever suits them.

    God did not create mankind for his pooja paat, he created mankind for much higher purpose as told in the quran and hadith which is knowing God through observing and learning his creations and revelation. This is why people have been given everything to use and get on with the set task. So there is no sense in starting debates over baseless dogmas and useless rituals because islam is deen not religion ie deen of islam is a way of life advised by Allah for mankind because it can lead them to blissful, dignified and secure existence. Dogmas and rituals lead humanity nowhere other than wasting their time. This is why religions were always invented by mullahs to support rulers and nowadays the money lenders.

    regards and all the best.




  6. #486
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    Last edited by Muhammad10; 21st December 2016 at 21:35.

  7. #487
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  8. #488
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  9. #489
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  10. #490
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    Evolution and Islam are completely contrary to each other . Me and my class mate often discuss about this issue . he is a christian and does believe in evolution

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurri View Post
    Evolution and Islam are completely contrary to each other . Me and my class mate often discuss about this issue . he is a christian and does believe in evolution
    Dear Azzurri, the only reason I wrote what you see on this thread is because people have wrong opinions about deen of islam. They start questioning the validity of the quran and the hadith without knowing what they are talking about. Here I have shown using concrete evidences that the quran is in its original form but that does not mean it is word of God so I went further to explain what makes it word of God and why.

    People also question conduct of prophet muhammad on basis of misinterpretations of the quran and hadith or on basis of invented hadith reports? This is something they do not realise as I see it. This is why first we need a correct interpretation of the quran and the hadith and then see if the conduct of prophet muhammad is questionable or not. This is my main point that I am argue for. This is why there is no point in anybody telling me the quran says this or that or the other till we have an interpretation that represents the message of the quran faithfully. If people who claim to be muslims or nonmuslims want to argue with each other that is their business I am not bothered with that sort of discussion because those sort of discussions lead nowhere due to all sides standing on nothing at all. That is just arguing with each other for sake of argument. So I hope you get my points. I do not accept as per my understanding of the message of the quran that any messenger of Allah ever did anything deliberately wrong or that any revelation of Allah ever told people wrong things to do to each other. I do not think as far as I understand the message of the quran that it contains any such nonsense at all. For the time being I cannot write down everything in my mind all at once rather it is going to take time. This is why there is no point in my responding to each and every post people make here because that takes away my time I should be spending on trying to write the stuff down that I have in my mind.

    To prove anything people first need to realise the need for proof and then look at the nature of the case for which a proof may be needed and then see if there is a way to prove the case then look at the claim and available evidences and see if they make sense and if they do than that is the proof. I have explained all this in detail in my writings. The question therefore is how to prove the quran is word of God? The way to prove the quran word of God is by examining it in light of real world realities as to what it says in it and find inconsistencies within it or with statements it contains about real world realities and our findings about realities. This is what we humans have not done yet ie we never sat down and tried and make sense of the text of the quran and the proof is, there are hardly many people who know what the words used in the text of the quran mean or why they mean what they mean or how they came about to be used in the quran in the first place. We simply accepted what palace mullahs told us and started to criticise the quran instead of questioning scholarship of mullahs who tried to mislead us on behest of rulers and money lenders.

    One only has to see the curse of money lenders in india and china the most populated countries on the earth. The reality is yet to sink in, in time to come as to where we are heading and why and who is leading us and where. The quran told us 1400 plus years ago to observe real world realities to learn from to become learned and told us very clearly that that is why we are bestowed with brains and senses and provisions. It also told us the best possible way of life to use provisions for our own development and prosperity and so far humanity has not discovered any better way of life than the one told in the quran already so long ago. A clear proof that the quran is word of none other than Allah because if man could think that far ahead then we will have been a lot better people than we are. If we deliberately do not follow a way of life knowing because we want to fight with each other to show to each other who is better man then battlefield is all set and we can keep going till last man is left standing just to prove we know better than our creator.

    Allah has already told us that we can only live a blissful, dignified and secure life if we learn to live with each other as a complementary community of people ie by standing in for each other not standing against each other. We are told all that because Allah told us he has created us advantaged and disadvantaged so if both advantaged and disadvantaged worked as one people like a good family there is not going to be any problem. However instead we see that we can take advantage of each other so we go for that and that is the way of life we have adopted for our living and the results are still to come and they are not going to be encouraging for our chosen ways of life. This is why one day deen of islam will become a reality no matter how much many of us human beings detest that. This is what the quran says, so was that a coincidence?

    regards and all the best.

  12. #492
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    I'll continue to state that all you have done is provide your own interpretations and present them as FACT...

    All while telling people they are following misinterpretations and should follow your school of thought...its why you and Jadz get on so well...you both insult scholarship all whilst acting as scholars yourselves...

    i would respect your positions more if you simply stated that Islam is open to interpretation but its your dogma which makes your positions contradictory...

    Its also the height of arrogance and I don't mean that to be rude...scholars all claimed to have opinions and they differed amongst each other...but they respected each others opinions...

    You are simply presenting your own school of thought on this thread but presenting it as an absolute truth...at least be honest with the likes of Shaz and state that 'my interpretation is ....'...rather than 'Islam is...'...

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    I'll continue to state that all you have done is provide your own interpretations and present them as FACT...

    All while telling people they are following misinterpretations and should follow your school of thought...its why you and Jadz get on so well...you both insult scholarship all whilst acting as scholars yourselves...

    i would respect your positions more if you simply stated that Islam is open to interpretation but its your dogma which makes your positions contradictory...

    Its also the height of arrogance and I don't mean that to be rude...scholars all claimed to have opinions and they differed amongst each other...but they respected each others opinions...

    You are simply presenting your own school of thought on this thread but presenting it as an absolute truth...at least be honest with the likes of Shaz and state that 'my interpretation is ....'...rather than 'Islam is...'...
    Dear brother shaykh, if people have been reading what I have been posting on this forum they should know I have been posting various points of views by various people as well as my own point of view about things and the reasons behind it.

    I have no problem with people who question deen of islam or my understanding of it. I can only share what I understand deen of islam to be. It is good that you are doing what you can to ensure people get your point of view as well regarding the same. Others are also do the same as you will see in the following links.

    regards and all the best.

    Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival - Session 1
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyFkAfmwFA
    Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival - Session 2
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTbGsUWzuw
    Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival - Session 3
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRJziCajlI
    Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival - Session 4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMq7AkUnc4w
    Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival - Session 5
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmvHy3JQo2c
    Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival - Session 6
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngVE40frqko
    Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival - Session 7
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pbgQmhXXWQ
    Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival - Session 8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUKhYrx6exQ
    Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival - Session 9
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkANDmYfufk
    Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival - Session 10
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAbJm9-TS5A
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 31st January 2017 at 18:04.

  14. #494
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    Similarities and differences between human beings and other living things.

    Animal Emotion: Why Dogs Smile and Chimpanzees Cry Part B 1/5
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5l_Mh2QAqg
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjnerzOqz-w
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCH5H6mp_-k
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qd5XcqFJDE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1Wr7IoMHoM

    BBC How Plants Communicate & Think - Amazing Nature Documentary
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-4w5xYLwiU

    Plants: Intelligent Beings? Find out on 'What Plants Talk About'
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrG-42uCDj4

    Do Plants Respond to Pain?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGLABm7jJ-Y

  15. #495
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    I've been reading the posts by @Mughal and I'm sorry but it's all a load of unsubstantiated **. None of what he says is written in the Quran and I think this is his own twisted interpretation and backed by pseudo-scientific conspiracy theory type videos from youtube.

    I, for one, would be surprised if anyone was taking this guy seriously.

  16. #496
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    I think 95% of population are not really aware of Islam much just the basic things,Nor the muslims even try to follow islam much.

  17. #497
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    Bloody nothing.


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Dear friends, to understand the quran one has to know the difference between the mazhab of islam and the deen of islam and the way to understand the quran properly. Why? Because till people realise what mazhab of islam is and why it is what it is they cannot have the idea of what deen of islam is and why it is what it is.

    You see mazhab is just a human thought or idea. As we know we human beings are born not knowing anything about the real world and its realities. All we are born with is brain and senses to make sense of the world in which we are born and things in it including ourselves. In my other posts I have explained already why God has created us the way he did or the way we are. When we start struggling in this word from our births till our deaths we find out many things about this world that we knew nothing at all about. All this leads some of us who have paid enough attention to things to question our origin and purpose and functioning etc etc. This is where at we get stuck because we cannot go any further from here. This is human thought and that is called mazhab=religion. As people want to know if there is a God or not and if there is one how to reach God to ask him questions we have in our minds and this leads mankind into different directions so people do all sorts of things in order to get near to God as they think better for themselves. However they cannot because God is not within their reach through their brains and senses. At this stage people who wish to take undue advantage of each other in the name of God do so therefore people end up divided into many religions and sects within those religions. This is all a mazhab or religion is from the beginning to the end.

    Now the deen of islam aspect of this equation is God getting in touch with humanity. Since people cannot get in touch with God but God can so he gets in touch with mankind through his revelation eg in this era it is the quran that is God's revelation. This is the foundational difference between deen and mazhab of islam. It is people looking for God and God looking for people and when the two meet that is when the connection becomes complete. Think it as if you want to get to the top of a mountain but you cannot on your own so someone drops you a rope from there to help you get there but you can only use that rope if you could rise to the height needed for you to see and catch the rope that is dropped for you to raise you to the top of the mountain.

    Why the rope is short of getting to you? It is because your creator and sustainer has a purpose in mind for creating you and that purpose does not allow him to extend his rope to you to where you are rather he wants you to make your own effort as well in getting to the rope. It is God and man working together that can help humanity succeed in accomplishing the purpose of God that is assigned to humanity by God. This is the main reason mazhab of islam is very different from deen of islam. This explains what is going on around the world in the name of mazhab of islam and deen of islam ie why there are soofies and mullahs and this and that and all claim to have something to do with islam. This is like you have to travel from one place to another but you have to use various modes of transport to get there. You may start walking then take a bus and then get into a ship and then into a plan etc etc to reach your destination. What is going to help you make your journey without problems is your best preparation for it. If you think you can get from a to b without needing any preparations then you will be prone to losing your way at many points along the way either by sticking to a particular mode of transport not knowing when to get off one to get on to another. This is what religions and sects are about and that is why people are lost in them because they get into this journey without making necessary preparations.

    Let say a person has made some preparations and he gets to the revelation of God ie you got the quran in your hands which claims to be a guidance from God for mankind. From here on another journey starts and that is how to make sense of the text of the quran or hadith or any written text be it about history or anything else. This again needs a lot of preparation and the foundation for this purpose is to know what is the original human language, how words came about and how they got their meanings. Why is all this important to know? It is because if we do not know these things then we cannot be sure about human language itself never mind any message of anyone for anyone in any language. It is because without knowing these facts about language we could accuse each other about making up things by ourselves as we go along. To make sure this does not happen these facts are necessary to know. Since the quran is merely a text or a collection of written words and nothing more unless we agree its words have a firm foundation and certain concretely established meanings by way of various mechanisms we cannot talk about it or anything else for that matter.

    The other main reason for knowing the very first human language is because without it God could never communicate his message to mankind. Try and communicate a message to someone else without using any form of human language, you will soon realise what I am talking about. So far so good. You can try and disagree with me on any of the points I have explained here so far but I do not think you or anyone else can. Human languages are human inventions but God wanted to use human language to communicate his message, which means he meant to convey his own ideas as they were about things because he knows them in reality. There is a big difference in God using word human and a man using word human. It is because God knows each and everything about a human being but not a human being despite being a human being oneself. This is why a language that has ability to accommodate message of God has to be used therefore God becomes limited by this fact just like a grown up becomes limited by talking to a baby in baby language. A baby cannot use a higher maths book. So there arises need for God to wait till baby has become a gown up human beings and has a lot of experience with real world realities by interacting with them directly which help him learn things. This is why we provide our kids with toys because we think they will help them learn things by playing with them. God has created a lot of things in this universe for the very same reason that people interact with them to learn from them and then once they have enough knowledge then they sit down with book of God and try and make proper sense of it and once they have it then work according to its guidance.

    This is why God needed to use an original human language to express his message for mankind which could not be mistaken by learned people in the human world for anything that did not fit his purpose. Any period bound language could not express message of God because no human generation was ever capable of knowing all at any point in time in human history. This is why a language had to be chosen by God that was flexible enough to be understood by all for ever after the message of God was revealed to mankind. Such book in this era is only and only the quran.

    The Quran explains through out it what deen of islam actually is and what it is not. Moreover the quran is an interactive book because it is for human beings who have been created with ability to self program themselves just like self programming robots. So people who have prepared themselves well should have little problem in understanding its message properly. So people who think God should spoon feed them or do all the work and leave nothing for people to do need to think what they are asking for and why or is there any sense in it at all, because whoever does anything does it for himself so does God. We cannot force our will on God because it is his will that is supreme. Therefore we should not ask God for things that make no sense in the context in which we ask if we sit and think over it. Can you see how the quran is a book of science and philosophy, society, politics and economics? It is because it is book of guidance and not a book of complete instructions for each and every person to each and every minute detail. It contain only and only what was essential for mankind to know so that they could find their way to God. The foundation of deen of islam is its name ie a way of life which is capable of leading mankind to blissful, dignified and secure existence in this very world which will be rewarded in hereafter as well. Word ISLAAM is from root SEEN, LAAM and MEEM. These letters are same as in hebrew. Word islam means same thing both in arabic and hebrew and various other languages.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeAc4Y4TEYk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7zS6L8UkAI

    regards and all the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uberkoen View Post
    I've been reading the posts by @Mughal and I'm sorry but it's all a load of unsubstantiated **. None of what he says is written in the Quran and I think this is his own twisted interpretation and backed by pseudo-scientific conspiracy theory type videos from youtube.

    I, for one, would be surprised if anyone was taking this guy seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mughal
    In deen of islam there is no concept of use of money because muslims are supposed to be a single family or a brotherhood so there is no concept of buying from each other or selling to each other in deen of islam.
    What do you make of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yatoo View Post
    What do you make of it?
    Absurd. This guy keeps copy/pasting stuff and posting videos without even paying attention to what's being written to said.

    This stuff makes no sense whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Verses in the Quran contradict each other...so how does one decide which verses are correct?...specific verses even abrogate others...so contradictions openly exist in the Quran...

    As for hadith there is a specific science behind their collation...chain of narration...and not whether 'this verse sounds like one i like'...

    So labeling isn't avoiding difficult questions it is what it is...Quranists are not considered Muslims except by themselves, the same as Ahmadis...
    Which verses in Quran contradict each other? Don't spread lies here please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tempus123 View Post
    Which verses in Quran contradict each other? Don't spread lies here please.
    He is not spreading lies. Seems like your knowledge of Quran is not even elementary. There is a separate science of Naskh and Mansokh. What abrogates what and why.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 31st January 2017 at 18:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yatoo View Post
    He is not spreading lies. Seems like your knowledge of Quran is not even elementary. There is a separate science of Naskh and Mansokh. What abrogates what and why.
    I am not an expert on Quran but it being contradictory is a news to me.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 31st January 2017 at 18:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tempus123 View Post
    I am not an expert on Quran but it being contradictory is a news to me.
    Life is a leaning process from cradle to grave.
    http://www.madeenah.com/rulings-pert...kh-abrogation/
    http://www.quransunnahandsalafussale...ation.html?m=1
    http://www.salafipublications.com/sp...rticlePages=12

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    Islam is a complete way of Life.

    Islam is Life.

    Love For All Hatred For None.

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    @TalentSpotterPk What was your argument about Hadith?


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    @TalentSpotterPk What was your argument about Hadith?

    I have made a new thread.


    It is reported (fact for me) that Hazrat Abu Huraira RA had strong memory while his cognition powers were not as much strong and sharp.

    So He RA had strong " Qooyat e Rawaayat " & slightly weak " Qooyat e Darayat "


    One infers meaning or concept due to his her " qooyat e darayat "


    And yes Ahadees have importance.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    I have made a new thread.


    It is reported (fact for me) that Hazrat Abu Huraira RA had strong memory while his cognition powers were not as much strong and sharp.

    So He RA had strong " Qooyat e Rawaayat " & slightly weak " Qooyat e Darayat "


    One infers meaning or concept due to his her " qooyat e darayat "


    And yes Ahadees have importance.
    What Qooyat is about fabulations and inventing things? He seems strong in that one too.


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    What Qooyat is about fabulations and inventing things? He seems strong in that one too.

    That is your Opinion.


    Incase you find any Hadees which opposes Quran or Sunnat than Bin it.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    That is your Opinion.


    Incase you find any Hadees which opposes Quran or Sunnat than Bin it.
    And we should accept any hadeeth that doesn't contradict Quran or Sunnat?


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    And we should accept any hadeeth that doesn't contradict Quran or Sunnat?

    Yes we should plus any event which a hadith says will happen in future (no matter how weak the narrator or chain is) , no matter even if that Hadith is not memtioned in Sahaa e Satta still if that event occurs in future than there is no choice but to accept it as absolute True.

    I can give a glaring example but I would avoid opening a Pandora box ;)


    But there is a very recent example. Let us take that.


    Few months ago I posted that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and Hazrat Ali RA told us about ISIS 1500 years ago. Now I did quote Hazrat Ali RA words from Shia book where He RA quoted He Pbuh. Now those words fit exactly on ISIS.


    Now there could be 2 opinions of two groups.


    1. He Pbuh told hazrat Ali RA

    2. Allah told Hazrat Ali RA


    Hazrat Ali RA was a Wali Ullah. Allah communicates with a Wali aswell just like He communicates with Prophets but less often.


    So either of the case could be true.



    Now for 1500 years people argued that these are not Sahi (authentic) ahadees. Some said they are packet of lies etc etc. But


    When the prophecies have been fulfilled in letter and spirit than there is no choice but to accept that whatever Hazrat Ali RA told was absolute truth and exactly the same happened on planet Earth.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    Yes we should plus any event which a hadith says will happen in future (no matter how weak the narrator or chain is) , no matter even if that Hadith is not memtioned in Sahaa e Satta still if that event occurs in future than there is no choice but to accept it as absolute True.

    I can give a glaring example but I would avoid opening a Pandora box ;)


    But there is a very recent example. Let us take that.


    Few months ago I posted that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and Hazrat Ali RA told us about ISIS 1500 years ago. Now I did quote Hazrat Ali RA words from Shia book where He RA quoted He Pbuh. Now those words fit exactly on ISIS.


    Now there could be 2 opinions of two groups.


    1. He Pbuh told hazrat Ali RA

    2. Allah told Hazrat Ali RA


    Hazrat Ali RA was a Wali Ullah. Allah communicates with a Wali aswell just like He communicates with Prophets but less often.


    So either of the case could be true.



    Now for 1500 years people argued that these are not Sahi (authentic) ahadees. Some said they are packet of lies etc etc. But


    When the prophecies have been fulfilled in letter and spirit than there is no choice but to accept that whatever Hazrat Ali RA told was absolute truth and exactly the same happened on planet Earth.
    What is the glaring example?


    "Uss Din Eid Mubarak Hossi Jiss Din Fer Milan Day"

    Adieu Friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    Yes we should plus any event which a hadith says will happen in future (no matter how weak the narrator or chain is) , no matter even if that Hadith is not memtioned in Sahaa e Satta still if that event occurs in future than there is no choice but to accept it as absolute True.

    I can give a glaring example but I would avoid opening a Pandora box ;)


    But there is a very recent example. Let us take that.


    Few months ago I posted that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and Hazrat Ali RA told us about ISIS 1500 years ago. Now I did quote Hazrat Ali RA words from Shia book where He RA quoted He Pbuh. Now those words fit exactly on ISIS.


    Now there could be 2 opinions of two groups.


    1. He Pbuh told hazrat Ali RA

    2. Allah told Hazrat Ali RA


    Hazrat Ali RA was a Wali Ullah. Allah communicates with a Wali aswell just like He communicates with Prophets but less often.


    So either of the case could be true.



    Now for 1500 years people argued that these are not Sahi (authentic) ahadees. Some said they are packet of lies etc etc. But


    When the prophecies have been fulfilled in letter and spirit than there is no choice but to accept that whatever Hazrat Ali RA told was absolute truth and exactly the same happened on planet Earth.
    You already have (See 2nd part in bold).

    I agree with everything you said but many others will surely oppose it.
    Last edited by Hadi Rizvi; 21st December 2016 at 23:20.

  36. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    You already have (See 2nd part in bold).

    I agree with everything you said but many others will surely oppose it.

    He Pbuh called Hazrat Ali RA as " Khaatam al Aoliya "


    What Mohammad e Arabi Pbuh said is ENOUGH for me.


    I respect people's opinion and belief but I have no obligation to be in agreement with them. They can also criticise my views or beliefs.


    Allah also spoke with Ibn e Arabi, khwaja farid ganj bakhsh shakkar, shah wali ullah mohaddis e dehalwi , Rehmatullah aleh's and many others of past and present but but Khaatam means the best of the best, at the highest level so amongst Wali's the highest status was of Hazrat Ali RA and it is not my judgement, it is saying of Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and Allah told Him Pbuh and I agree and hold this belief.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    He Pbuh called Hazrat Ali RA as " Khaatam al Aoliya "


    What Mohammad e Arabi Pbuh said is ENOUGH for me.


    I respect people's opinion and belief but I have no obligation to be in agreement with them. They can also criticise my views or beliefs.


    Allah also spoke with Ibn e Arabi, khwaja farid ganj bakhsh shakkar, shah wali ullah mohaddis e dehalwi , Rehmatullah aleh's and many others of past and present but but Khaatam means the best of the best, at the highest level so amongst Wali's the highest status was of Hazrat Ali RA and it is not my judgement, it is saying of Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and Allah told Him Pbuh and I agree and hold this belief.
    Again you spoke my heart.

    I was talking about people who don't believe in Hazrat Ali (AS)'s wilayat.

    I'm sure those same people haven't read the "Verse of Wilayah" (55th verse of 5th Surah, Surah Al-Maida).

  38. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hadi Rizvi View Post
    Again you spoke my heart.

    I was talking about people who don't believe in Hazrat Ali (AS)'s wilayat.

    I'm sure those same people haven't read the "Verse of Wilayah" (55th verse of 5th Surah, Surah Al-Maida).

    This ? Who is the centre of discussion in the preceding and successive verses ?
    Attached Images Attached Images  


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    This ? Who is the centre of discussion in the preceding and successive verses ?
    It has been universally agreed by scholars that this verse mentions Hazrat Ali (AS) indirectly.

    Read this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verse_of_Wilayah

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    Yes we should plus any event which a hadith says will happen in future (no matter how weak the narrator or chain is) , no matter even if that Hadith is not memtioned in Sahaa e Satta still if that event occurs in future than there is no choice but to accept it as absolute True.

    I can give a glaring example but I would avoid opening a Pandora box ;)


    But there is a very recent example. Let us take that.


    Few months ago I posted that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh and Hazrat Ali RA told us about ISIS 1500 years ago. Now I did quote Hazrat Ali RA words from Shia book where He RA quoted He Pbuh. Now those words fit exactly on ISIS.


    Now there could be 2 opinions of two groups.


    1. He Pbuh told hazrat Ali RA

    2. Allah told Hazrat Ali RA


    Hazrat Ali RA was a Wali Ullah. Allah communicates with a Wali aswell just like He communicates with Prophets but less often.


    So either of the case could be true.



    Now for 1500 years people argued that these are not Sahi (authentic) ahadees. Some said they are packet of lies etc etc. But


    When the prophecies have been fulfilled in letter and spirit than there is no choice but to accept that whatever Hazrat Ali RA told was absolute truth and exactly the same happened on planet Earth.
    This is similar to how Allah (swt) communicates with very pious people indirectly right? Like through dreams and sorts? Correct me if I am wrong.


    "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all." --Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    This is similar to how Allah (swt) communicates with very pious people indirectly right? Like through dreams and sorts? Correct me if I am wrong.

    Yes with very very pious people after they attain the level of Wali. True dreams, Kashaf's and Royaa's.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

  42. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    Yes with very very pious people after they attain the level of Wali. True dreams, Kashaf's and Royaa's.
    Yeah I've heard stories of Muslims in the Islamic Golden Age and how they use to be very pious. I think one man even saw Shaytan appear in some form.


    "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all." --Aristotle

  43. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    Yeah I've heard stories of Muslims in the Islamic Golden Age and how they use to be very pious. I think one man even saw Shaytan appear in some form.
    God used to talk with his people and now He does not ?

    God's Sift has expired or died ? Naoozbillah


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    @Dr_Bassim

    Assalamoalaikum Warehmatullah !

    Congratulations for winning POTW. Given your writing skills no surprise. MashaAllah.

    Assalaat doesn't mean " Namaz " which is practiced by Billions ?

    What does Assalaat mean ?

    Is it misunderstood by majority ?


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    @Mamoon


    When people converted to Islam, Prophet Muhammad Pbuh the founder of the Islamic faith only required them to pledge allegiance to the oneness of God and the truth of his prophetic mission.

    There was no other requirement whatsoever.

    This is why Muslims have long believed that the Kalima (proclaiming oneness of God and prophethood of Muhammad Pbuh) is the basis of the Islamic faith.


    The question of who would be counted as a Muslim came up during the first census in the State of Medina.

    Prophet Muhammad Pbuh asked that anyone who claimed to be Muslim be counted as one.

    Their profession of Islam was all he required to be considered a part of the Muslim community.

    There was no religious test devised to test a claimant’s [B]‘Muslimness'.[/B’]


    Prophet Muhammad Pbuh knew well that there were hypocrites living in Medina, some of whom were even conspiring against him. Prophet Muhammad knew that they did not even consider him a true prophet. Amongst them there were Imposter claimants of Prophethood aswell like Musaylimah Kazaab, Aswad Ansi, Sajah etc and they had put forward their claim of Prophethood even Musaylimah used to write letters to He Pbuh and He Pbuh is on record to even respond to his letters. Now the question is did Prophet Pbuh forge a new definition of Muslim and Islam to counter their threat ? Did He Pbuh alter Kalima Tayyaba La Ilaha Illallah Mohammad ur Rasool Allah Did he ever forbid anyone from identifying as Muslims, he allowed them open access to his Mosque. Rather than forbid them from praying and punishing them for ‘posing as Muslim,’ He Pbuh in fact prayed with them, and for them.


    There are other traditions that shed more light on this issue. Prophet Muhammad is reported to have said:

    “Whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, faces our Qibla (Mecca) during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have.” (Bukhari)


    In another detailed narration, Prophet Muhammad defined both Islam and the tenets of faith:

    “One day while Allah’s Apostle was sitting with the people, a man came to him walking and said, “O Allah’s Apostle. What is Belief?” The Prophet said, “Belief is to believe in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the meeting with Him, and to believe in the Resurrection.” The man asked, “O Allah’s Apostle What is Islam?” The Prophet replied, “Islam is to worship Allah and not worship anything besides Him, to offer prayers perfectly, to pay the obligatory alms i.e. Zakat and to fast the month of Ramadan.” (Bukhari)


    The well-known five pillars of Islam, and the six articles of faith, are based on this and other similar traditions.


    These sayings of Prophet Muhammad spell out how He Pbuh defined a Muslim.

    He did not denounce self-identifying Muslims as non-Muslim. Such rejection and exclusion was the hallmark of his opponents.


    He repeatedly cautioned that judging someone’s truth or sincerity to their claim of Islam was a prerogative of God alone. Once, the famous general Khalid bin Waleed RA suggested to the Prophet that there were many people who outwardly professed Islam while there was no faith in their heart. Prophet Muhammad responded firmly:


    “I have not been commanded to pierce through the hearts of people, nor to split their bellies (to look what is inside them)” (Muslim)


    There is another famous incident of a Muslim killing a non-Muslim during a battle, despite the man having recited the Kalima. When Prophet Muhammad found out, he was furious. The Muslim soldier said: “O Messenger of Allah, that man read the Kalima merely to protect himself from our sword.” Prophet Muhammad reprimanded him:

    “Did you open his heart and look inside it?”


    Even the founder of the Islamic faith was not granted the authority to judge someone’s ‘Muslimness.’

    God commanded in the Quran:

    The Arabs of the desert say, ‘We believe.’ Say, “You have not believed yet; but rather say, ‘We have accepted Islam,’ for the true belief has not yet entered into your hearts.” (49:14)

    This verse speaks of those Bedouins whom God Himself attests were completely faithless, yet were allowed to identify as Muslim. This prohibition of excommunication or Takfir is emphasized in the sayings of Prophet Muhammad Pbuh, who equated such exclusion to murder.




    Where do the Orthodox Moulvi Hazrat stand on this ?

    Do they know better than He Pbuh wrt definition of Muslim and Islam ? (Naoozbillah)


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    @speed

    Accept post number 528 as a new year gift from me


    Now leaving aside Mullah/Ulema e Soo please present definitions of Islam and Muslim from Quran and Hadith.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Last edited by Muhammad10; 31st January 2017 at 18:18.

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    Maybe one day, all of us PPers can sit together in Heaven and watch a cricket match.


    "Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all." --Aristotle

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    I believe that there are certain elements of Islam that just aren't applicable in this day and age. Many aspects of the Sharia Law are outdated and frankly not acceptable in this day and age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayyman View Post
    This is similar to how Allah (swt) communicates with very pious people indirectly right? Like through dreams and sorts? Correct me if I am wrong.
    If it does not contradict with Quran and authentic hadeeth its okay , but if it does , its probably satan fooling that guy.


    Fear the Creator ..... not the created.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    However, if we separate truth from fiction, what is actually known about Islam? What do people really know about it - as opposed to what they have seen, heard, read or been told?
    I bought and read bits of the Koran when I was in my mid-twenties. The style was difficult and I did not read most of it. Since then I have read mostly what those who call themselves Muslims have done through history, rather than what the Koran preaches. In my opinion now, any philosophy should be judged by the impact it has on people's behaviors rather than the words of a book.

    The way Islam is practised, preached and propagated rests - in the final analysis - upon knowledge. So, how well - or not, as the case may be - is Islam being conveyed?

    This thread is for everyone interested in the subject, and is addressed to Muslims, non-Muslims alike.
    "Knowledge" is not necessarily based on reason. Followers of religions that appeal to the supernatural rely on faith rather than reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mughal View Post
    6)and for that reason show us the firmly founded way of life that leads to unity, peace, progress and prosperity,
    Now that we have 1,300+ years of history, how successful do you judge has the Koran been?

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    I came across this recently. Has anyone here read it? https://www.harpercollins.com/978006...he-study-quran

    I have seen a lot of Study Bibles, but I had never seen a Study Quran in English before. It is a great piece of work.

    I recently decided that I would read the translation of the Quran, however, when I started, I realised that the Quran simply can't be understood in English without commentary. And also, it is said in hadith, the Prophet (PBUH) said he left behind two things for his followers 'The Quran, and his family/sunnah (whichever one you believe), which both compliment each other'.

    I looked for commentary, and came across 'The Study Quran'. I am reading, and so far it is great. What I really like about this book is that it analyses the Arabic language itself using information from commentators of all schools of thought (Shia/Sunni/Sufi, Ashari/Mu'tazila, etc) and also does a basic comparison with the Bible on many verses, it truly gives a very good understanding of the entire picture.


    “It is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.”
    ― Imran Khan

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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    I came across this recently. Has anyone here read it? https://www.harpercollins.com/978006...he-study-quran

    I have seen a lot of Study Bibles, but I had never seen a Study Quran in English before. It is a great piece of work.

    I recently decided that I would read the translation of the Quran, however, when I started, I realised that the Quran simply can't be understood in English without commentary. And also, it is said in hadith, the Prophet (PBUH) said he left behind two things for his followers 'The Quran, and his family/sunnah (whichever one you believe), which both compliment each other'.

    I looked for commentary, and came across 'The Study Quran'. I am reading, and so far it is great. What I really like about this book is that it analyses the Arabic language itself using information from commentators of all schools of thought (Shia/Sunni/Sufi, Ashari/Mu'tazila, etc) and also does a basic comparison with the Bible on many verses, it truly gives a very good understanding of the entire picture.

    Assalamoalaikum. Can you post screenshot of verse 5:117 along with translation and commentary ?


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    Assalamoalaikum. Can you post screenshot of verse 5:117 along with translation and commentary ?
    117 I said naught to them save that which Thou didst command: ‘Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them, so long as I remained among them. But when Thou didst take me [to Thyself], it was Thou Who wast the Watcher over them. And Thou art Witness over all things.
    118
    If Thou punishest them, they are indeed Thy servants, but if Thou forgivest them, then indeed Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.”

    117– 18 * * Worship God, my Lord and your Lord is a common formulation of the prophetic message found throughout the Quran. Jesus gives this same command in 3: 51; 5: 72; 19: 36; 43: 64; it is attributed to Hūd in 11: 56, Moses in 40: 27 and 44: 20, and Muhammad in 2: 139 and 42: 15. Continuing in the same tone of humility seen in vv. 109 and 116, Jesus claims no ability to be witness for his people after his time on earth; his witness lasted only for the duration of his earthly life, but God, he says, is Witness over all things. In fact, some maintain that the purpose of God’s question to Jesus in v. 116 was to inform Jesus of his followers’ actions after he was no longer among them rather than to obtain knowledge of things that God, being omniscient, would have already known (Ṭ). Jesus further manifests his humility before God by refusing to suggest either the punishment or the forgiveness of his errant followers; instead, he entrusts the matter entirely to God. Although the error of taking Jesus and his mother as gods apart from God (v. 116) might be considered by some as a form of shirk (ascribing partners to God, “idolatry”) and thus as “unforgiveable,” according to 4: 48 and 4: 116, many commentators suggest that these Christian beliefs do not actually rise to the level of shirk, but are rather considered mere “sins,” which God may certainly forgive (R). The Ashʿarites, who refuse to limit God’s freedom to assign reward or punishment by making it contingent upon human actions, consider His possible forgiveness of Christian errors of belief as fully within the scope of His just action and Wisdom (R). Jesus’ suggestion that God may forgive his followers, while also leaving the matter of their punishment or forgiveness completely in God’s Hands, indicates the proper manner in which prophets intercede for their people, and some consider this verse a proof that God may accept the intercession of prophets on behalf of their sinful followers (R). According to a ḥadīth, the Prophet was once heard praying from night until morning, reciting only v. 118 in each cycle of prayer. When a Companion, Abū Dharr, asked him about this matter, the Prophet responded that he had been asking His Lord for the ability to intercede for his community and that it had been granted for all those who were innocent of the sin of shirk (IK).

    Nasr, Seyyed Hossein; Dagli, Caner K.; Dakake, Maria Massi; Lumbard, Joseph E.B.; Rustom, Mohammed. The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary (Kindle Locations 16969-16992). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
    The letters in brackets are commentators -

    (Ṭ) - Muḥammad ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī (d. 310/ 923), Jāmiʿ al-bayān ʿan taʾwīl āy al-Qurʾān

    (R) - R Fakhr al-Dīn al-Rāzī (d. 606/ 1210), al-Tafsīr al-kabīr, also known as Mafātīḥ al-ghayb

    (IK) - ʿImād al-Dīn Abu’l-Fidāʾ Ismāʿīl ibn ʿUmar ibn Kathīr (d. 774/ 1373), Tafsīr al-Qurʾān al-ʿaẓīm

    (These 3 are just from this verse, this book makes use of a total of 40 commentators).


    “It is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.”
    ― Imran Khan

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    @TalentSpotterPk

    There are some parts that are supposed to by italicised, but the formatting did not copy over. I have recopied it here and underlined those parts -


    117 I said naught to them save that which Thou didst command: ‘Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them, so long as I remained among them. But when Thou didst take me [to Thyself], it was Thou Who wast the Watcher over them. And Thou art Witness over all things.
    118 If Thou punishest them, they are indeed Thy servants, but if Thou forgivest them, then indeed Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.”

    117– 18 * * Worship God, my Lord and your Lord is a common formulation of the prophetic message found throughout the Quran. Jesus gives this same command in 3: 51; 5: 72; 19: 36; 43: 64; it is attributed to Hūd in 11: 56, Moses in 40: 27 and 44: 20, and Muhammad in 2: 139 and 42: 15. Continuing in the same tone of humility seen in vv. 109 and 116, Jesus claims no ability to be witness for his people after his time on earth; his witness lasted only for the duration of his earthly life, but God, he says, is Witness over all things. In fact, some maintain that the purpose of God’s question to Jesus in v. 116 was to inform Jesus of his followers’ actions after he was no longer among them rather than to obtain knowledge of things that God, being omniscient, would have already known (Ṭ). Jesus further manifests his humility before God by refusing to suggest either the punishment or the forgiveness of his errant followers; instead, he entrusts the matter entirely to God. Although the error of taking Jesus and his mother as gods apart from God (v. 116) might be considered by some as a form of shirk (ascribing partners to God, “idolatry”) and thus as “unforgiveable,” according to 4: 48 and 4: 116, many commentators suggest that these Christian beliefs do not actually rise to the level of shirk, but are rather considered mere “sins,” which God may certainly forgive (R). The Ashʿarites, who refuse to limit God’s freedom to assign reward or punishment by making it contingent upon human actions, consider His possible forgiveness of Christian errors of belief as fully within the scope of His just action and Wisdom (R). Jesus’ suggestion that God may forgive his followers, while also leaving the matter of their punishment or forgiveness completely in God’s Hands, indicates the proper manner in which prophets intercede for their people, and some consider this verse a proof that God may accept the intercession of prophets on behalf of their sinful followers (R). According to a ḥadīth, the Prophet was once heard praying from night until morning, reciting only v. 118 in each cycle of prayer. When a Companion, Abū Dharr, asked him about this matter, the Prophet responded that he had been asking His Lord for the ability to intercede for his community and that it had been granted for all those who were innocent of the sin of shirk (IK).

    Nasr, Seyyed Hossein; Dagli, Caner K.; Dakake, Maria Massi; Lumbard, Joseph E.B.; Rustom, Mohammed. The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary (Kindle Locations 16969-16992). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.


    “It is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.”
    ― Imran Khan

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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    The letters in brackets are commentators -

    (Ṭ) - Muḥammad ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī (d. 310/ 923), Jāmiʿ al-bayān ʿan taʾwīl āy al-Qurʾān

    (R) - R Fakhr al-Dīn al-Rāzī (d. 606/ 1210), al-Tafsīr al-kabīr, also known as Mafātīḥ al-ghayb

    (IK) - ʿImād al-Dīn Abu’l-Fidāʾ Ismāʿīl ibn ʿUmar ibn Kathīr (d. 774/ 1373), Tafsīr al-Qurʾān al-ʿaẓīm

    (These 3 are just from this verse, this book makes use of a total of 40 commentators).
    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    @TalentSpotterPk

    There are some parts that are supposed to by italicised, but the formatting did not copy over. I have recopied it here and underlined those parts -

    JazaakAllah. May Allah bless you. Aameen.


    I have some pertinent questions wrt this translation of relation to other verses. I will ask when you when I have plenty of time in hand.

    Once again Thank You and JazaakAllah.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    JazaakAllah. May Allah bless you. Aameen.


    I have some pertinent questions wrt this translation of relation to other verses. I will ask when you when I have plenty of time in hand.

    Once again Thank You and JazaakAllah.
    No worries. Feel free to ask questions.

    I would highly recommend this book, it's a great piece of work. More Qurans need to be made like this. A plain translation of the Quran in English does not suffice, it makes far more sense with commentary and background to each verse.

    Having plain English translations on the shelves is in fact dangerous because any non-muslim can read and misunderstand the verses.


    “It is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.”
    ― Imran Khan

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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    I came across this recently. Has anyone here read it? https://www.harpercollins.com/978006...he-study-quran

    I have seen a lot of Study Bibles, but I had never seen a Study Quran in English before. It is a great piece of work.

    I recently decided that I would read the translation of the Quran, however, when I started, I realised that the Quran simply can't be understood in English without commentary. And also, it is said in hadith, the Prophet (PBUH) said he left behind two things for his followers 'The Quran, and his family/sunnah (whichever one you believe), which both compliment each other'.

    I looked for commentary, and came across 'The Study Quran'. I am reading, and so far it is great. What I really like about this book is that it analyses the Arabic language itself using information from commentators of all schools of thought (Shia/Sunni/Sufi, Ashari/Mu'tazila, etc) and also does a basic comparison with the Bible on many verses, it truly gives a very good understanding of the entire picture.
    I have come across this books a year or so back be careful with that book infact throw it in the dustbin it contains clear statements of kufr.

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    Don't know much about Islam other then a lot of Arab culture was ingrained in to it. Arab words having different meanings and all the translators and Hadeeths were written by men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musakhel View Post
    I have come across this books a year or so back be careful with that book infact throw it in the dustbin it contains clear statements of kufr.
    Nothing wrong with the book at all. It has received a lot of praise, and I really love the translation and commentary.

    The only people who have objected are a few scholars who are upset because -

    A.) The commentary [correctly] states that anyone who believes in one god has a direct path to heaven, irrespective of them being a Muslim or nonmuslim. Due to this, a few scholars have accused the writers of perennialism.

    B.) The translation [in most cases] translates the words 'Islam' and 'Muslim' to 'submission' and 'one who submits'. The commentary subsequently says that these words can be used to describe any person who 'submits to one god'. This has upset some people who are of the view that these words are exclusively for people who adhere to the 'Islamic religion', and hence the writers have again been accused of perennialism.

    This book does not belong in the dustbin at all, it belongs on my bookshelf with all my other Qurans and Bibles. In fact, no book belongs in the dustbin, people need to learn to read books critically and open their mind to informing themselves of ideas that they may not totally agree with.


    “It is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.”
    ― Imran Khan

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    @Kayaal

    Assalamoalaikum.


    I agree Prophet Adam AS was the First Prophet.


    Can you post the verses which state that :

    1. Prophet Adam AS was the first Human Being ?

    2. Prophet Adam AS descended from Heaven/Paradise ?
    Last edited by TalentSpotterPk; 19th May 2017 at 19:50.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    @Kayaal

    Assalamoalaikum.


    I agree Prophet Adam AS was the First Prophet.


    Can you post the verses which state that :

    1. Prophet Adam AS was the first Human Being ?

    2. Prophet Adam AS descended from Heaven/Paradise ?
    I don't know the exact verse bro but i have studied this in my madrassa classes. I will have to check the tafseer for that.

    Btw am not an expert in this topic so pardon me if there is any ignorance in my post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    @Kayaal

    Assalamoalaikum.


    I agree Prophet Adam AS was the First Prophet.


    Can you post the verses which state that :

    1. Prophet Adam AS was the first Human Being ?

    2. Prophet Adam AS descended from Heaven/Paradise ?
    If Adam is the first Human, how old is Adam? How many centuries or Thousands of years ago has Adam descended on Earth?

    Was Adam as old as Earth? When God created Earth and the Heavens, did he create Adam right away or did God create Adam Billions of years after Earth was created?

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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    If Adam is the first Human, how old is Adam? How many centuries or Thousands of years ago has Adam descended on Earth?

    Was Adam as old as Earth? When God created Earth and the Heavens, did he create Adam right away or did God create Adam Billions of years after Earth was created?
    After earth was created


    Kuch to log kahenge
    Logon ka kaam hai kehna

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliasad1998 View Post
    After earth was created
    How long after Earth was created?

    Immediately or like after 6 days as mentioned in Bible or Billions of years later?

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    Quote Originally Posted by troodon View Post
    If Adam is the first Human, how old is Adam? How many centuries or Thousands of years ago has Adam descended on Earth?

    Was Adam as old as Earth? When God created Earth and the Heavens, did he create Adam right away or did God create Adam Billions of years after Earth was created?

    You know my religious orientation very well so keep that in mind. I need not to repeat it.


    1. I believe that Prophet Adam AS was the first Prophet but Not the First Human being. What is the Point of sending a Prophet to barren land ? To teach and guide animals and plants and mucrobes ?

    If Guidance through Prophets is for mankind than in first place Mankind has to exist to be guided.



    2. Holy Quran has used Word Adam interchangeably for Prophet Adam as well as Adam(All Humans). So even dear brother troodon is Adam aswell as per Quran. Whenever Allah has talked about Prophet Adam As than he has either referred to him As as Leader (Imam), Caliph (Khalifa) or Prophet(Messenger)


    So this distinguishing is essential aswell as Crucial.



    Holy Quran does not give timeline of either Prophet Adam AS or first Human Being.



    We " assume " Prophet Adam to be as old as Bible refers ie few thousand years old only.




    As per Science Human beings took Hundreds of thousands of years to evolve into final product. Once Evolution seized only than Man was physically and mentally capable to receive guidance and to act upon it. Now after these hundred of thousand years (some accounts millions billions years) (all estimates) God made first Prophet ADAM.


    Quran's Story begin's with this Prophet Adam AS and his Wive Eve AS. It does not tell how and when they were born. There is a Story of Adult Grown Up Adam & Even in a Garden. For me that is all metaphorical having a meaning rather than being literal.




    So when God created Earth say Billions of Years Ago than this Adam AS did not exist Physically Practically at that time.



    Holy Quran or any religious scripture is too small to Contain all information of Billions of Years. In 23 years this much could be revealed to a Prophet and Allah chose this much to be relevant to the World for times ahead till end of time. Even otherwise who could have studied a million pages religious book even once in his life ?


    So to know many Secrets of Life we rely very heavily on Science and Scientists.


    I Love Religion, Science & Cricket and it makes my life worthy


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaayal View Post
    I don't know the exact verse bro but i have studied this in my madrassa classes. I will have to check the tafseer for that.

    Btw am not an expert in this topic so pardon me if there is any ignorance in my post.

    No Problem Dear Sister and no hurries. I know you are busy with your studies and yes that is and should be primary focus so life permitting I would cherish a reply even after 6 months or an year.


    Stay blessed and Best wishes and Prayers for your studies. I ll be proud to see as a Super-Specialist One Day Insha'Allah. Effort is yours and my prayers with you.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    No Problem Dear Sister and no hurries. I know you are busy with your studies and yes that is and should be primary focus so life permitting I would cherish a reply even after 6 months or an year.


    Stay blessed and Best wishes and Prayers for your studies. I ll be proud to see as a Super-Specialist One Day Insha'Allah. Effort is yours and my prayers with you.
    yaar kamaal kartay ho,,for the first time opened this thread and found u well aware of many things which i dont know...wish i can gain that much about my religion.....i think i have to give sometime out of my shecdule and study QURAN..

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    @TalentSpotterPk

    I personally believe that it is a symbolic story, but as your comment that there was no point in sending a prophet to a barren land, you are basing it on the assumption that he was granted prophethood the moment he was exiled from Heaven. According to most accounts, he lived for over a thousand years, so is it very much possible that he wasn't granted prophethood for the first 500-600 years maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    @TalentSpotterPk

    I personally believe that it is a symbolic story, but as your comment that there was no point in sending a prophet to a barren land, you are basing it on the assumption that he was granted prophethood the moment he was exiled from Heaven. According to most accounts, he lived for over a thousand years, so is it very much possible that he wasn't granted prophethood for the first 500-600 years maybe.

    First of all I agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not literal.

    Secondly No, Human Body does not have the Capacity to live thousands of years.


    In Quran Allah says that He made some Divine Laws and neither those Laws will be abbrogated nor suspended in any case. They are Qudrat, Nature, Laws of Nature. So this 1000 years story is against that.


    Than Allah also says in Holy Quran that People will be born on Earth, will live on Earth and will die on Earth and get burried there. Adam AS is not beyond it. He wasn't exiled from heaven.


    God is capable of doing anythinh but He doesn't do stuff which breaks his own made Laws.


    Quran's story starts with Adam & Eve. Quran does not mention stories and history of entire mankind. As I said It would than have got thousands of volumes. It only contains what is relevant and significant to Us. But just that Quran starts with this story doesn't mean that Prophet Adam AS wasn't born naturally like us or that there were no humans before him AS.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

  75. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    First of all I agree that the story of Adam & Eve is not literal.

    Secondly No, Human Body does not have the Capacity to live thousands of years.


    In Quran Allah says that He made some Divine Laws and neither those Laws will be abbrogated nor suspended in any case. They are Qudrat, Nature, Laws of Nature. So this 1000 years story is against that.


    Than Allah also says in Holy Quran that People will be born on Earth, will live on Earth and will die on Earth and get burried there. Adam AS is not beyond it. He wasn't exiled from heaven.


    God is capable of doing anythinh but He doesn't do stuff which breaks his own made Laws.


    Quran's story starts with Adam & Eve. Quran does not mention stories and history of entire mankind. As I said It would than have got thousands of volumes. It only contains what is relevant and significant to Us. But just that Quran starts with this story doesn't mean that Prophet Adam AS wasn't born naturally like us or that there were no humans before him AS.
    You misunderstood me. I don't believe that humans can live up to a thousand years, and I also don't believe that Adam was a 100 ft tall. The myth that ancient humans were much taller and lived longer than modern humans has been comprehensively busted by science.

    I am simply following the religious logic here just like you were when you made the assumption that there was no point in sending a prophet to a barren world. However, if we accepted the belief that a) it is not a symbolic story and b) he did live up to a 1000 years, then it also reasonable to assume that he wasn't granted prophethood for centuries after living on earth.

  76. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    You misunderstood me. I don't believe that humans can live up to a thousand years, and I also don't believe that Adam was a 100 ft tall. The myth that ancient humans were much taller and lived longer than modern humans has been comprehensively busted by science.

    I am simply following the religious logic here just like you were when you made the assumption that there was no point in sending a prophet to a barren world. However, if we accepted the belief that a) it is not a symbolic story and b) he did live up to a 1000 years, then it also reasonable to assume that he wasn't granted prophethood for centuries after living on earth.

    Wrt Point B :

    Why should we assume that He lived 1000 years ?

    Ok let's just stay in limits of Holy Quran. There is an Adam & Eve story in Quran and it's upto us to see it as literal, symbolic or metaphorical. Lafzi maani, Isteaara or tamseeli maani.

    But where is this 1000 years mentioning in Holy Quran ? Than we can debate whether we take literal or symbolic or metaphorical meaning.


    I believe in Logic, Rational thinking and Critical thinking. You too have that tendency so even wrt this timeline debate we have messed up (We = We All)


    Now in Holy Quran Allah says that :


    In Chapter 11 verse 7 Allah discusses that He SWT made earth and heaven in 7 (Ayaam) uses word " Ayaamin "


    Now majority of Us are adamant that Ayaamin means days and each day = 24 hours.


    We fail to understand that these milliseconds, seconds, minutes, hours, days calibrations are man made and not taught by Allah. These are for our own convenience.


    So why can't we say that He Allah created Earth and Heaven in 7 Phases/Periods ? Why not ?

    Why we can't say that we do not know but each period could be of 10 years, hundred years or thousands years ?


    Coming back to Ages another Argument could be made that Allah only gave 63 years Life to Prophet Muhammad Pbuh while He gave 1000 years (not my claim or belief) to Prophet Adam AS so why this discrimination and bias ? Since in Adam AS time there were either believers who believed in him or no believers while during Muhammad Pbuh time many different religions existed and the divide was massive so than He Pbuh needed 2000 years not 63.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

  77. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    Wrt Point B :

    Why should we assume that He lived 1000 years ?

    Ok let's just stay in limits of Holy Quran. There is an Adam & Eve story in Quran and it's upto us to see it as literal, symbolic or metaphorical. Lafzi maani, Isteaara or tamseeli maani.

    But where is this 1000 years mentioning in Holy Quran ? Than we can debate whether we take literal or symbolic or metaphorical meaning.


    I believe in Logic, Rational thinking and Critical thinking. You too have that tendency so even wrt this timeline debate we have messed up (We = We All)


    Now in Holy Quran Allah says that :


    In Chapter 11 verse 7 Allah discusses that He SWT made earth and heaven in 7 (Ayaam) uses word " Ayaamin "


    Now majority of Us are adamant that Ayaamin means days and each day = 24 hours.


    We fail to understand that these milliseconds, seconds, minutes, hours, days calibrations are man made and not taught by Allah. These are for our own convenience.


    So why can't we say that He Allah created Earth and Heaven in 7 Phases/Periods ? Why not ?

    Why we can't say that we do not know but each period could be of 10 years, hundred years or thousands years ?


    Coming back to Ages another Argument could be made that Allah only gave 63 years Life to Prophet Muhammad Pbuh while He gave 1000 years (not my claim or belief) to Prophet Adam AS so why this discrimination and bias ? Since in Adam AS time there were either believers who believed in him or no believers while during Muhammad Pbuh time many different religions existed and the divide was massive so than He Pbuh needed 2000 years not 63.
    His age is not mentioned in the Quran, but they are narrations by scholars such as Ibn Sa'd, Al-Tabari, Ahmad ibn al-Tha'labi etc. etc. who have all roughly agreed on his age, i.e. over a thousand years. Now it is up to you and me to dismiss their beliefs, but my point is that his age is generally accepted by Muslims because of the work of the renowned said scholars. Ultimately, Fiqh is a major source of knowledge in Islam. Quran is but a guidance, and it cannot contain everything. It is 6,236 verses of knowledge and information, and the age of Adam is quire irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

  78. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    His age is not mentioned in the Quran, but they are narrations by scholars such as Ibn Sa'd, Al-Tabari, Ahmad ibn al-Tha'labi etc. etc.who have all roughly agreed on his age, i.e. over a thousand years. Now it is up to you and me to dismiss their beliefs, but my point is that his age is generally accepted by Muslims because of the work of the renowned said scholars. Ultimately, Fiqh is a major source of knowledge in Islam. Quran is but a guidance, and it cannot contain everything. It is 6,236 verses of knowledge and information, and the age of Adam is quire irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

    I agree they have written this.

    I agree that Fiqh is a major source of knowledge in Islam but at the same time has this POV of age been endorsed by all Ahle Sunnat " Aaimma " (Imams) ? Has it been endorsed by all the Reformers of Islam ? Ans is No.


    Another question is that while you yourself consider Fiqh to be important than why don't you believe that Adam AS lived this long ?


    Today amongst Muslim world it is generally accepted that Jesus AS is alive and he AS sits on right hand side of Allah on heavens or wherever Allah is there is Jesus there. He is alive for last 2000 odd years. But there are Ulema like Ghamdi and 2-3 other Ulema from 72 School of thoughts who prove from Holy Quran and Arabic dictionaries that Jesus AS neither died on Cross, nor was he crucified neither was escalated and died a natural death later on after surviving the Cross. Similarly many Ahl e Sunnat Saints and Scholars of Past believed the same that like all other Prophets before Mohammad Pbuh He also died natural death.


    Now Coming back to Prophet Adam AS, the world has passed through different cycles of creation and civilization, and Adam (peace be upon him), the progenitor of the present human race, is only the first link in the present cycle, and not the very first man in God’s creation. Nations have risen and fallen, civilizations have appeared and perished, and many other cycles of human civilization may have appeared and disappeared.


    Muhyud-Din Ibn Arabi, the great Muslim mystic, Saint and widely Accepted Reformer of the 6th Century says that once he saw himself in a dream performing a circuit of the Kabah. In the dream a man who claimed to be one of his ancestors appeared before him. “How long is it since you died?” asked Ibn Arabi. “More than forty thousand years,” the man replied. “But this period is much more than what separates us from Adam (peace be upon him)!” said a surprised Ibn Arabi. The man replied, “Of which Adam (peace be upon him) are you speaking? About the Adam (peace be upon him) who is nearest to you or of some other?” “Then I recollected,” says Ibn Arabi, “a saying of the Holy Prophet to the effect that God had brought into being no less than a hundred thousand Adams (peace be upon them), and I said to myself, ‘Perhaps this man who claims to be an ancestor of mine was one of the previous Adams.’ ” (Futuhat ii, p. 607)


    It does not, however, mean that the race, which lived before Adam (peace be upon him), was entirely swept away before he was born. Most likely, there had remained a small degenerated remnant of the old race and Adam (peace be upon him) was one of them. God then selected him to be the progenitor of a new race and the precursor of a new civilization. Created, as it were, out of the dead, he represented the dawn of a new era of life.

    Allah, the knower of the unseen has said,

    “And when thy Lord said to the angels, I am about to place a vicegerent in the earth, they said, ‘Wilt Thou place therein such as will cause disorder in it, and shed blood? We glorify Thee with Thy praise and extol Thy holiness.’ He answered, I know what you know not.’ ” (2:31)
    In this verse God has used the word khalifah for Adam (peace be upon him). Khalifah in Arabic means a successor. It is, therefore, clear that men had existed and lived on earth before Adam (peace be upon him) whom he succeeded. We cannot say whether original inhabitants of America, Australia, etc., are the progeny of this last Adam (peace be upon him) or of some other Adam (peace be upon him) gone before him.

    In short, the Holy Quran speaks of that Adam (peace be upon him) who was appointed as Khalifah and the first Prophet of God, and who was raised for the guidance of mankind. God taught him the knowledge and made him leader of men.


    And Yes, I agree that Adam AS age is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things but we are not compelled to follow and accept writings of Aaemaaz and Fiqaheez in the same way as Prophets because they are given all the religious and history knowledge by Allah. Furthermore there are many disagreements amongst them and it is our choice to agree with One or Disagree and agree with someone else.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

  79. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by TalentSpotterPk View Post
    I agree they have written this.

    I agree that Fiqh is a major source of knowledge in Islam but at the same time has this POV of age been endorsed by all Ahle Sunnat " Aaimma " (Imams) ? Has it been endorsed by all the Reformers of Islam ? Ans is No.


    Another question is that while you yourself consider Fiqh to be important than why don't you believe that Adam AS lived this long ?


    Today amongst Muslim world it is generally accepted that Jesus AS is alive and he AS sits on right hand side of Allah on heavens or wherever Allah is there is Jesus there. He is alive for last 2000 odd years. But there are Ulema like Ghamdi and 2-3 other Ulema from 72 School of thoughts who prove from Holy Quran and Arabic dictionaries that Jesus AS neither died on Cross, nor was he crucified neither was escalated and died a natural death later on after surviving the Cross. Similarly many Ahl e Sunnat Saints and Scholars of Past believed the same that like all other Prophets before Mohammad Pbuh He also died natural death.


    Now Coming back to Prophet Adam AS, the world has passed through different cycles of creation and civilization, and Adam (peace be upon him), the progenitor of the present human race, is only the first link in the present cycle, and not the very first man in God’s creation. Nations have risen and fallen, civilizations have appeared and perished, and many other cycles of human civilization may have appeared and disappeared.


    Muhyud-Din Ibn Arabi, the great Muslim mystic, Saint and widely Accepted Reformer of the 6th Century says that once he saw himself in a dream performing a circuit of the Kabah. In the dream a man who claimed to be one of his ancestors appeared before him. “How long is it since you died?” asked Ibn Arabi. “More than forty thousand years,” the man replied. “But this period is much more than what separates us from Adam (peace be upon him)!” said a surprised Ibn Arabi. The man replied, “Of which Adam (peace be upon him) are you speaking? About the Adam (peace be upon him) who is nearest to you or of some other?” “Then I recollected,” says Ibn Arabi, “a saying of the Holy Prophet to the effect that God had brought into being no less than a hundred thousand Adams (peace be upon them), and I said to myself, ‘Perhaps this man who claims to be an ancestor of mine was one of the previous Adams.’ ” (Futuhat ii, p. 607)


    It does not, however, mean that the race, which lived before Adam (peace be upon him), was entirely swept away before he was born. Most likely, there had remained a small degenerated remnant of the old race and Adam (peace be upon him) was one of them. God then selected him to be the progenitor of a new race and the precursor of a new civilization. Created, as it were, out of the dead, he represented the dawn of a new era of life.

    Allah, the knower of the unseen has said,

    “And when thy Lord said to the angels, I am about to place a vicegerent in the earth, they said, ‘Wilt Thou place therein such as will cause disorder in it, and shed blood? We glorify Thee with Thy praise and extol Thy holiness.’ He answered, I know what you know not.’ ” (2:31)
    In this verse God has used the word khalifah for Adam (peace be upon him). Khalifah in Arabic means a successor. It is, therefore, clear that men had existed and lived on earth before Adam (peace be upon him) whom he succeeded. We cannot say whether original inhabitants of America, Australia, etc., are the progeny of this last Adam (peace be upon him) or of some other Adam (peace be upon him) gone before him.

    In short, the Holy Quran speaks of that Adam (peace be upon him) who was appointed as Khalifah and the first Prophet of God, and who was raised for the guidance of mankind. God taught him the knowledge and made him leader of men.


    And Yes, I agree that Adam AS age is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things but we are not compelled to follow and accept writings of Aaemaaz and Fiqaheez in the same way as Prophets because they are given all the religious and history knowledge by Allah. Furthermore there are many disagreements amongst them and it is our choice to agree with One or Disagree and agree with someone else.

    You raise good points, and I agree that we can disagree with the scholars because Fiqh is opinion based. It is not concrete like the Quran, but at the same time, we also have to concede that these people are far, far more knowledgable than us on matters of religion, so it is a very sensitive issue. As I have always said, religion will never beat logic and science, that is why it is called faith.

    It something that you either have or you don't. When you start looking at things with the lens of logic and science, you start doubting these things. Hence, it is best not to dwell too much on irrelevant aspects of religion such as Adam's age, whether Prophet physically journeyed to Jerusalem and the Heavens or was it just a dream, whether Musa's staff actually turned into a serpent etc. have minute significance.

  80. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mamoon View Post
    You raise good points, and I agree that we can disagree with the scholars because Fiqh is opinion based. It is not concrete like the Quran, but at the same time, we also have to concede that these people are far, far more knowledgable than us on matters of religion, so it is a very sensitive issue. As I have always said, religion will never beat logic and science, that is why it is called faith.

    It something that you either have or you don't. When you start looking at things with the lens of logic and science, you start doubting these things. Hence, it is best not to dwell too much on irrelevant aspects of religion such as Adam's age, whether Prophet physically journeyed to Jerusalem and the Heavens or was it just a dream, whether Musa's staff actually turned into a serpent etc. have minute significance.

    Yes Agree overall. But one should know about his her religion incase He She believes on it.


    Any American can place the verse infront of You and say here you Go :


    " Your God says he doesn't break His Laws, those Laws he made himself "


    So what explaination are you giving to me about physical journey to heavens ? Serpent ?


    We might get more embarassed if they present statements of Hazrat Ayesha RA and Sahi Muslim and Sahi Bukhari Ahadees right infront of Us. We will be embarassed thoroughly.


    There was One Guy who broke the taboo and started discussing it and He had to run to Malaysia to save his Life.


    Religion isn't too complicated and it doesn't always defy logic wisdom and science. It does in very rare cases only. So I don’t think doubts will be created.

    Questioning and deliberating shouldn't be classed as blasphemy which in.most cases is classed so...


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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