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  1. #81
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    Does Islam allows a man to remarry without asking his first wife or he always has to take permission of his first wife?


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Also my dislike for Islam doesn't mean I misrepresent it...this is a slant on my sincerity...and at no point have i ever fronted about my position on anything...
    Human nature on all that ... especially when it concerns something you dislike so much after being committed to it to the extent you apparently were .... And you expect one to believe that you can give an objective, impartial viewpoint despite all that dislike you harbor for the topic you're commenting upon? Pull the other one! Even though (and here I'm assuming) you're a man and not a woman, nevertheless the phrase "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" comes to mind.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 22nd October 2014 at 21:40.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    There is no such thing as a Quranist as far as I am aware, but to put the hadith on the same par as the Quran just doesn't make sense. Yes you can have a scholar give his opinion or fatwa for what that's worth, but it can't be worth that much since the vast majority of the Muslim world don't follow those opinions in reality. Even the majority of the scholars today don't follow one opinion otherwise everyone would be pledging allegiance to ISIS and it would be game over.

    You cannot have Islam without hadeeth

    The 5 pillars of Islam would not be the 5 pillars without hadeeth
    Neither would the actions in prayer be known without hadeeth
    Neither would the adaab of the prophet pbuh or any fiqh matter

    Without hadeeth , Islam is blind and more easy to distortion as everyone can quote and paste an ayah from the quran but not may people can tell you in which year it was revealed, in which settings, the background behind it and what the prophet pbuh meant with each word which is why tafseer derived from hadeeth is vital


    "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles"

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    You cannot have Islam without hadeeth

    The 5 pillars of Islam would not be the 5 pillars without hadeeth
    Neither would the actions in prayer be known without hadeeth
    Neither would the adaab of the prophet pbuh or any fiqh matter

    Without hadeeth , Islam is blind and more easy to distortion as everyone can quote and paste an ayah from the quran but not may people can tell you in which year it was revealed, in which settings, the background behind it and what the prophet pbuh meant with each word which is why tafseer derived from hadeeth is vital
    What is the best online source for Hadeeth? Is there some version which is widely accepted?


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    You cannot have Islam without hadeeth

    The 5 pillars of Islam would not be the 5 pillars without hadeeth
    Neither would the actions in prayer be known without hadeeth
    Neither would the adaab of the prophet pbuh or any fiqh matter

    Without hadeeth , Islam is blind and more easy to distortion as everyone can quote and paste an ayah from the quran but not may people can tell you in which year it was revealed, in which settings, the background behind it and what the prophet pbuh meant with each word which is why tafseer derived from hadeeth is vital
    Who said anything about having Islam without hadith? What I said is that the two can't be considered as equal. What is tafseer at the end of the day? It's interpretation which already makes it removed from the source thus inferior.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    What is the best online source for Hadeeth? Is there some version which is widely accepted?
    I have a book which i read called Riyadh Us saliheen which is quite good

    The best book is perhaps the 40 hadeeth by Imam Nawawi

    For fiqh issues such as praying or marrying it depends on your madhab, Hanafi fiqh books are quite easy to attain
    Last edited by chacha kashmiri; 22nd October 2014 at 22:08.


    "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles"

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Who said anything about having Islam without hadith? What I said is that the two can't be considered as equal. What is tafseer at the end of the day? It's interpretation which already makes it removed from the source thus inferior.
    I don't want to derail the thread which is jadz' to answer but a quranist is someone who completely rejects hadeeth

    as a an iranian apologist i would have thought Jadz' would have rejected only Sunni hadith and accepted Shia hadeeth as Shia reject Abu Hurrayah and also Hadrat Aisha among other companions who have narrated many hadeeth but Jadz' rejects all hadeeth


    "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles"

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    I have a book which i read called Riyadh Us saliheen which is quite good

    The best book is perhaps the 40 hadeeth by Imam Nawawi

    For fiqh issues such as praying or marrying it depends on your madhab, Hanafi fiqh books are quite easy to attain
    Ok, so those books are better source. Can you give me a links/name for 1 best book to buy? I Googled it and see lots of books list. Or do you have any online link of Hadeeth which may hold a view closer to the books you are suggesting?
    Last edited by Buffet; 22nd October 2014 at 22:15.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Ok, so those books are better source. Can you give me a links/name for 1 best book to buy? I Googled it and see lots of books list. Or do you have any online link of Hadeeth which may hold a view closer to the books you are suggesting?
    http://central-mosque.com/index.php/Table/Fiqh/ for fiqh issues



    http://40hadithnawawi.com/ for the 40 hadeeth


    http://www.2muslims.com/books/2disco...s_saliheen.pdf riyadh us saliheen
    Last edited by chacha kashmiri; 22nd October 2014 at 22:30.


    "If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles"

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    I don't want to derail the thread which is jadz' to answer but a quranist is someone who completely rejects hadeeth

    as a an iranian apologist i would have thought Jadz' would have rejected only Sunni hadith and accepted Shia hadeeth as Shia reject Abu Hurrayah and also Hadrat Aisha among other companions who have narrated many hadeeth but Jadz' rejects all hadeeth
    Okay address that to her instead of me then.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    Two links seems broken. One has plenty of material in form of questions and answers. I will go through a portion of it later. Thanks for the link.


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Human nature on all that ... especially when it concerns something you dislike so much after being committed to it to the extent you apparently were .... And you expect one to believe that you can give an objective, impartial viewpoint despite all that dislike you harbor for the topic you're commenting upon? Pull the other one! Even though (and here I'm assuming) you're a man and not a woman, nevertheless the phrase "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" comes to mind.
    Lol believe what you like...if you actually bother to observe my arguments then I ONLY use Islamic sources...whether that be Tafsir of Quran, hadith, seera or classical scholarship...my opinion doesnt actually enter these discussions...

    eg apostasy...i refer to scholarship that mainstream Muslims view as strong sources...

    So you can continue with the ad hominem nonsense if you so like...but my feelings about Islam are irrelevant...and if you doubt my objectivity then by all means refute my arguments...instead of resorting to judging me...

    Rejection of hadith is shirk according to ahla sunna...that is actually a FACT...you can defend Jadz position if you want but her position has nothing to do with mainstream Islam...
    Last edited by shaykh; 22nd October 2014 at 22:50.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Lol believe what you like...if you actually bother to observe my arguments then I ONLY use Islamic sources...whether that be Tafsir of Quran, hadith, seera or classical scholarship...my opinion doesnt actually enter these discussions...

    eg apostasy...i refer to scholarship that mainstream Muslims view as strong sources...

    So you can continue with the ad hominem nonsense if you so like...but my feelings about Islam are irrelevant...and if you doubt my objectivity then by all means refute my arguments...instead of resorting to judging me...

    Rejection of hadith is shirk according to ahla sunna...that is actually a FACT...you can defend Jadz position if you want but her position has nothing to do with mainstream Islam...
    So how do you justify presenting yourself as mainstream Islam and what are your credentials "shaykh"?

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    So how do you justify presenting yourself as mainstream Islam and what are your credentials "shaykh"?
    Mainstream for him means cherry picking and using that to justify his dislike of the very religion that once he was such an ardent follower of. A blatantly obvious attempt to try and justify his reasons for leaving.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    So how do you justify presenting yourself as mainstream Islam and what are your credentials "shaykh"?
    Again read my posts...I don't present my own perspectives on apostasy...this isn't my scholarship...I am not a scholar and am not qualified to be one...i presented the opinions of Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafii etc...respected scholars of ahla sunnah wal jamaat...for Sunnis these are respected scholars...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Mainstream for him means cherry picking and using that to justify his dislike of the very religion that once he was such an ardent follower of. A blatantly obvious attempt to try and justify his reasons for leaving.
    Lol Javelin i stay away from conversations I know nothing about...I don't involve myself in threads in hinduism as i know nothing about it...yet you seem to have a habit of joining conversations you are clueless about...

    I notice you havent been able to refute a single point i have made...your focus on me the person is a bit pathetic really...

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Again read my posts...I don't present my own perspectives on apostasy...this isn't my scholarship...I am not a scholar and am not qualified to be one...i presented the opinions of Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafii etc...respected scholars of ahla sunnah wal jamaat...for Sunnis these are respected scholars...
    respected yes... are their words divine? no

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    What is the best online source for Hadeeth? Is there some version which is widely accepted?
    For Sunnis it is Kutub al-Sittah

    This contains the work of Bukhari, Muslim, Dawood, Tirmidhi among others....

    This is the one that is generally accepted...

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    respected yes... are their words divine? no
    Of course their interpretations aren't divine...however the whole point is one has to pick an opinion...and on a majority of issues there is clear consensus and has been consensus among scholars for a very long time...

    I once heard an opinion that it is halal to drink whisky...there is a South African imam that says homosexuality is halal...Quranists like Taj Hargay perform inter religious marriages between Muslim women and non Muslim men...now 1400 years of Islamic scholarship has had consensus on these issues yet in the modern day convenient alternative opinions are beginning to appear...

    Now for new realities that old school scholars obviously couldn't examine you have the need for new scholarship...i gave a previous example of cloning...is it halal or not?...a designer baby in the future?...through ijtihad modern day scholars will provide opinions...on issues that have been dealt with in Islamic history frankly those old school scholars are better...islamic education is at its weakest at present so why should anyone choose the opinion of some random government funded scholar over old school scholars like Abu Hanifa...the Ottoman Empire itself adopted Hanafi fiqh...while its scholars used ijtihad to address new realities...

    Fact is their opinions are a hell of a lot more valid than some random on an internet forum who openly rejects mutawaatir hadith...

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Mainstream for him means cherry picking and using that to justify his dislike of the very religion that once he was such an ardent follower of. A blatantly obvious attempt to try and justify his reasons for leaving.
    As usual shooting the messenger, trying to portray him as some villain as soon as there is any opinion which is contrary. Some people really do not want any kind of serious discussion at all. And of course now I am siding with him because I am a hating Hindu Indian.


    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. --Mark Twain

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    As usual shooting the messenger, trying to portray him as some villain as soon as there is any opinion which is contrary. Some people really do not want any kind of serious discussion at all. And of course now I am siding with him because I am a hating Hindu Indian.
    If you say so.

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Of course their interpretations aren't divine...however the whole point is one has to pick an opinion...and on a majority of issues there is clear consensus and has been consensus among scholars for a very long time...
    Where is this consensus? I don't see much evidence of it. If there is a consensus then why is it not being followed by any state or nation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    You cannot have Islam without hadeeth

    The 5 pillars of Islam would not be the 5 pillars without hadeeth
    Neither would the actions in prayer be known without hadeeth
    Neither would the adaab of the prophet pbuh or any fiqh matter

    Without hadeeth , Islam is blind and more easy to distortion as everyone can quote and paste an ayah from the quran but not may people can tell you in which year it was revealed, in which settings, the background behind it and what the prophet pbuh meant with each word which is why tafseer derived from hadeeth is vital

    bhai kashmiri sb, asal deene islam to wohee hai jo quran ki abaarat main mojood hai magar us abaarat ko samajhne waale abhi duniya main behot kam log hen. in ki tadaad irtqayee lihaaz se badhti rahe gi magar yeh aik sust raftaar amal hai. agar is kaam ko inqalaabi tareeq par chalaaya jaaye jo yeh kaam jaldi bhi ho sakta hai. yani log khud bhi woh taleem haasil karen jo quran ko samajhne ke liye laazmi hai aur doosrun ki bhi is baare main bharpoor madad karen. yun samjhen jitne ziyaada log is baat par saheeh tarah se tawajo den ge kaam utni hi jaldi ho ga.

    quran ko samajhne ke liye bunyaadi baat zabaan se mutalqa maloomaaat ka hona az bas laazmi hai keh yeh kaise wajood main ayee aur kaise irtqaa pazeer hui. yeh is liye laazmi hai kyunkeh yeh ham ko bataati hai is main ilfaaz kahaan se aaye aur un ko jo maani diye ge woh kaise wajood main aaye.

    jab bacha peda hota hai to ilfaaz main baaten nahin karte balkeh chup chaap har shai ko apne hawaas ke zariye apne andar samoota jaata hai. aik waqt aata hai woh jo kuchh apne dimaagh main jama paata hai us ko doosrun ko bataana chahta hai. aik ar se ke baad woh itna jaan leta hai keh woh jo jo awaaz nikaalta hai us ka log kuchh na kuchh matlab lete hen. jab woh dekhta hai keh aik awaaz jab woh baar baar nikaalta hai to logoon ka us par aik hi raade amal hota hai to yun woh jaan leta hai us ke ishaare aur awaazen deegar logoon ko mutaasir karti hen. woh in se kaam lena shuroo kar deta hai. logoon ko mazeed dekhta hai keh woh aik doosre ke ishaarun par yaa awaazun par kaisa radde amal zahir karte hen to isi liye woh bhi jab logoon ka waisa hi radde amal chahta hai to wohee ishaare karta hai yaa awaazen nikaalta hai. yun aahista aahista bacha wohee zabaan bolna shuroo kar deta hai jo deegar log us ke ird gird bolte hen. isi baat ko insaan ki ibtadaa ki taraf le jaayen keh insaan ne zabaan ijaad kaise ki. insaan ilfaaz kaise wajood main laaya aur un ko us ne kin kin tasawuraat se taabeer kiya aur kia kia maani apnaaye waghera waghera.

    baat yaheen par khatam nahin hoti balkeh aage chal kar yeh bhi maloom ho jaata hai keh khudaa ne quran ke nazool ke liye arbi zubaan ka intkhaab hi kyun kiya. is liye keh arbi ke siwaa puraani tamaam zabaane jo lafzun par nahin maadun par mabni thin dam tod rahee thin maslan hebrew waghera. insaan jab se duniya main aaye zabaanu ko taraqi dete rehe aur yun zabaanen badalti chali gayeen. arbi wahid aisi zabaan hai jo insaanu ko in ke maazi ki zabaanu se bhi milaati hai aur mojooda zamaane ki zabaanu se bhi aur aainda aane waali zabaanu se bhi milaaye rakhe gi quran ki wajah se aur duniya ke na badalne waale haqaaiq ki wajah se. doosri wajah yeh thi ke ilfaaz par mabni zabaanen aisi hen keh in main khudaa apna matlab bayaan nahin kar sakta tha insaanu ke liye kyunkeh insaani dimaagh aisi zabaanu ka mutahammal nahin jin main har baat ko doosrun tak pohnchaane ke liye bahot hi ziyaada ilfaaz adaa karne paden. doosre lafzun main jo paighaam khudaa ne insaanu ko quran main arbi zabaan main diya aur us dor main diya jis main arbi zabaan taraqi pazeer thi agar wohee paighaam khudaa duniya ki taraqi yaafta zabaanu main deta to us ki abaarat itni nahin hoti jitni quran ki hai balkeh isse kayee gunaan hoti jisse kayee librariyan bhar jaatin. kyunkeh taraqi yaafta zubaanen aik had tak precision zabaanen ban chuki hoti hen jin main ilfaaz ke maani mehdood hote jaate hen. yahee wajah hai har baat ke liye koi aur hi lafz hota hai jab keh taraqi pazeer zabaan main aik lafz kayee maanu ke liye istemaal hota hai. is main bhi aap bache ki misaal le lijiye keh jab woh baaten karni shuroo karta hai har apna matlab aik hi awaaz se bayaan karta hai. kuchh ar se ke baad koi aur lafz par bhi us ko uboor haasil ho jaata hai aur yun waqt ke saath saath us ke ilfaaz ka zakheera badhta jaata hai. yun bacha bahot se khayaalaat bahot hi kam ilfaaz main bayaan karta hai phir aahista aahista woh zayaada khayaalaat ziyaada lafzun main zahir karta hai. bache ki baten jaise kam ilfaaz main maan baap ko samajh aa jaati hen isi tarah jo log un aloom se waaqif hen jo quran ko samajhne ke liye darkaar hen un ko quran ka paighaam samajh aa jaata hai kam ilfaazi ke bawjood. agar khudaa quran ke bajaaye koi bahot hi bada encyclopeadia naazal kar deta to kia insaan us ko padh sakte? phir padhna hi nahin us ko yaad rakhna likhna taa keh us ki kaapiyan banayee jaa saken waghera waghera aisa maamla ban jaata jo insaani taaqat se bahir tha.

    yahee wajah hai is baat ko samajhna laazmi hai keh khudaa to apni taraf se logoon ke liye aik mukammal mufassal kitaab bhej deta jis ki tafseer ki zaroorat hi na padti magar log us ko istemaal main na laa sakte. phir yeh keh agar khudaa har baat hi khud insaanu ko bataa deta to insaanu ke karne ko kia reh jaata? woh to yun ho jaata jaise khudaa ne aik robot banaaya hai aur us ko poori tarah program kar diya hai bajaaye keh us ko khud ko program karne de. kyunkeh logoon ke azhaan mehdood hen yahee wajah hai khudaa ko bhi apne kaamun ko mehdood hi rakhna padta hai. aur phir yahee wajah hai khudaa ne to apni taraf se logoon ko ilm wahee kar diya magar log to baat ko samajhte samajhte samjhen ge kyunkeh insaanu ko irtqayee yani taraqi ki manaazil se guzarna padta hai. aisa nahin hai keh idhar khudaa ne baat ki udhar insaan ne is ko poori tarah samajh liya.

    hamaare molvi hazraat in bareekyun se waaqfiyat haasil nahin karte isi liye bekaar fatwe banaate aur bakhairte rehte hen aur jo log thoda bahot ilm rakhte hen un ke bataaye huwe deen se door ho jaate hen apni naa samjhi ki wajah se. yahee wajah hai ummat ko molvi hazraat ko apni apni hadood ke andar rakhna chahiye taa keh yeh log ummat main apni naasamjhi ki wajah se fitna fasaad karwaane se baaz rehen.

    is qisam ki baaten bahot tafseel talab hoti hen aur in ko samjhe baghair guzaara bhi nahin hai. isi liye logoon ko deene islam ki itni samajh nahin hai jitni ka un ko dawaa hota hai. is liye logoon ko aapas main ladayee jhagde ke bajaaye asal baatun ko jaanane main waqt guzaarna chahiye jis ka bahot faaida ho ga.

    Quran ko samajhna sirf arbi zabaan jaanane se mumkin nahin ho jaata warna khud arab log quran se is qadar naa aashnaa na hote jitne ke woh hen haalan keh quran un ki apni zabaan main hai. is baat ko sochen khud hamaare pakistan ke log kyun itne jahil hen kia woh pakistan zabaanun main baat nahin karte aapas main? wajah yeh hai un ko woh cheezen jaanane ka ishtyaaq hasil nahin jo insaan ko aqlo fikar ki taraf mutawaje karta hai. un ki dilchasbi bahot hi mehdood hai. isi liye woh qown taraqi nahin kar sakti jis main cheezun ko jaanane ki lagan nahin hai. jin ko thodi bahot lagan hai bhi un ke peechhe mullah log dande liye phirte hen keh woh cheezun ko jaanane ka shoq hi kyun rakhte hen keh un ki nazar main har kaam jo un ki ilmi satah se buland ho ghalat hai isi liye us ke mutaliq maloomat haasil karne ki koi zaroorat nahin hai qowm ko. isi wajah se ummat aaj is mushkil se guzar rahee hai jo hamaare saamne hai keh qowm mullah parast hai deen parast nahin hai.


    asal baat yeh hai quran insaanu ki apni zabaan main khudaa ke maqaasid ki tarjumaani karta hai, khudaa quran main insaani zabaan main apna muddaa bayaan karta hai. ab khudaa ka mudaa kia hai insaan samajhne ki koshish karen ge to hi samjhen ge warna aur kia tareeqa hai us ki baatun ko samajhne ka? isi mudaa ko samajhne ke liye quran ke ilfaaz ke woh maani nahin liye jaa sakte jo ham insaan apne apne matlab ke liye lete hen jab ham aapas main baaten karte hen. is liye keh haamara ilm mukammal nahin hai haqaaiq ke baare main jin ke mutaliq khudaa ham se baat karta hai. misaal ke tor par Allah ham se quran main zameen ke baare main badi tafseel se baat karta hai magar kia ham jaante hen zameen kia hai, yeh kaise kaam karti hai yaa is ka maqsad kia hai? ham khudaa ki baatun ko jo woh zameen ke baare main karta hai tab jaa kar samjhen ge jab ham khud yeh jaanane ki koshish karen ge keh zameen hai kia balaa aur yeh kia kia karti hai aur kaise kaise karti hai waghera waghera. agar ham zameen ki jaankaari haasil hi nahin karen ge to quran ko kia khaak samjhen ge? isi tarah quran bahot si deegar cheezun ke bare main baat karta hai sawaal yeh peda hota hai kia ham ne un cheezun ke baare main tafseel se jaankaari haasil kar li hai? agar jawaab nahin main hai to ham yeh dawaa kaise kar sakte hen ham ne quran ko saheeh tarah se samajh liya hai? yahee wajah hai quran abri zubaan main naazil kiya gayaa kyunkeh is main ilfaaz maadun se bante hen aur maade kaise wajood main aaye hen yeh ham ko maloom karne ki zaroorat hai taa keh ham samajh sakenn quran ilfaaz ko maani kaise deta hai aur hamaare liye qurani ilfaaz ke kia kia maani hen agar ham quran ka paighaaam saheeh tor par samajhna chahte hen. yahee wajah hai koi shakhs arab mumaalik main peda hone se quran ka aalim nahin ban jaata. is main bahot se raaz hen jin par se parda uthaana laazmi hai. khud arbun ko bhi ham ko samjhaana pade ga keh quran ko woh kaise samjhen to samajh aaye ga warna nahin. aur yahee wajah hai jab tak ham quran ko samajhne ke saheeh tareequn ko nahin samajh lete quran samajhna hamaare liye naamumkin hai. aur jab tak ham khud quran ko nahin samjhen ge doosrun ko kia samjhaayen ge. is liye ham ko agar deene islam se mohabbat ka dawaa hai to quran ko samajhne ki koshishun main lag jaana chahiye. Allah yaqeenan hamaari madad farmaaye ga agar ham apne daawe main sache hen.

    Allah ham sab ko apni baatun ko saheeh tarah se samajhne ki taaqat ataa farmaaye aur is baat par mehnat ki towfeeq de aur amal karne ki bhi.
    Last edited by Mughal; 23rd October 2014 at 10:55.

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    To understand deen of islam properly, it is absolutely necessary to understand the message of the quran properly. deen of islam is not the name of nonsense of mullahs. What mullahs have given to this ummah is make beliefs and useless rituals in order to derail ummah from deen of islam on behalf of rulers and money lenders.

    Have you seen any book or movie free of rivalry between people? It is always good guys versus bad guys. It is always bad guys conspiring against the good guys. Why do we make such movies and write such books? Because it is a fact that people are like that in the real world. We have law abiding citizens and lawless folks or social and anti social elements in our human societies.

    What we do not question is who is really good guy and why and who is really bad guy and why. This is why we are confused about it. It is not that people who know the quran are mentally ill that they think everyone is working against them, it is a fact. The reason is the quran talks about a proper human community whereas people have personal vested interest to protect against each other so they rather fight for individualism. People are deliberately living as rivals and enemies because it suits a few of us at the top who are making fool of everyone else through various powerful means eg use of mass media. This is how rulers are put in place by money lenders and this is how mullahs are put in place to help further their cause through creating divisions in people in the name of God.

    It is true that people are busy conspiring against the message of the quran at a grand scale but what people do not realise is that it is mullah at the forefront of it all. They have instilled in minds of people certain beliefs which they tell people are from God and because rulers keep their people ignorant, illiterate and uneducated so they being simple minded are easily fooled by mullahs into believing any nonsense in the name of God like a child without much questioning. It is indoctrination that has ruined humanity for so long. The day we stop becoming victims of indoctrination that is the day we have our own minds to reason things out properly. Indoctrination is not only by mullahs but rulers and money lenders as well. They try to fool us using their tricks of trade and keep us locked up in that using their mechanisms just like mullahs use their tricks of the trade and mechanisms to keep us locked up in confusion about God and his message. Rulers use social and political tricks and like wise money lenders use economic and finance based tricks to keep us divided by trying to make us use each other as slaves. It is made possible by nature because people are limited by what they naturally are. For example, some of us are bodily strong while others are weak. Strong can beat us up and use us anyway he likes. It is because one person has natural advantage over another, a few try to become real harmful and destructive people. It is because they can see that they have this strength and that they can use it for their own benefit so they go ahead and use it. In reaction weaker people have no choice but to form alliances to fight the strong people than themselves. Seeing this the strong also join together so we have people separated into two main groups. The advantaged ones and the disadvantaged ones. As people develop more and more the power is no longer personal bodily strength but weapons as well so balance of power keeps changing and loyalties of people also change as new ideas and inventions come about due to interaction between people. This is why individuals became clans and tribes and they ended up creating kingdoms and empires in order to beat each other at it. Power then moved from hands of kings and emperors to hands of mullahs and today it rests in hands of bankers who have all political and religious leaders in the palm of their hand.

    We are today made to believe through set-up educational institutions that if we do not use money for our daily living as a mechanism we will have no way to live our lives which is totally false. The very moment people decide not to use money at all and live as a family the money market will collapse and money lenders will be out of business and use and abuse will end right away. The world as it is will still stand, it is because it is we the people who make the world go round not the money market. They just use money as a trick to fool us into believing that we are better off living by this mechanism and we accept it without questioning this idea.

    The collapse of money market does not change the area of land in the world and it has no affect on its resources or population of people. All it does is gives us a chance to organise and regulate ourselves in a different way ie instead of living as a divided people as rivals and enemies full of hatred for each other and killing each other over nothing we can become a brotherhood of humanity and work just like before but eliminate poverty and disease etc and make progress and prosper together. This is why people who work for personal gains at the expense of others conspire against the message of the quran because it tells them to use their advantages to help each other which they do not want to do. They are ok with taking whatever humanity as a whole has to offer but do not want to give back to humanity what they can. This is why they are criminals because they deliberately commit crimes against humanity, they are anti social elements in human societies. This is why there are good guys and bad guys and you can see who is good guy and why and who is bad guy and why. It is therefore time we started thinking deeper and wider and stopped being frogs in the well. There is no point in attacking deen of islam or the quran, first learn how to make sense of the book by learning about origin and development of language and humanity itself. The quran simply draws our attention to things so that we work hard to know them. This is why we are endowed with brains and senses as well as bodies to go and find out about things and make proper use of everything that is provided in the universe so that mankind keep going from strength to strength with full support of each other.
    Last edited by Mughal; 23rd October 2014 at 12:14.

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    Nothing (Don't want to know anything either).


    If there is a better batsman than Sachin then he hasn’t arrived yet: Viv Richards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Where is this consensus? I don't see much evidence of it. If there is a consensus then why is it not being followed by any state or nation?
    That's an odd point to make considering there is no such thing as an Islamic state...the only place that claim to be an Islamic state is actually ISIS...the rest are nation states who don't implement Islamic rules...

    The Ottoman state considered the last known caliphate adopted Hanafi fiqh...the punishment for apostasy during the empire was death up until 1844 when the Tanzimat reforms were implemented...the Tanzimat reforms basically were the removal of Islamic rules from the empire...they also abandoned the jizya at this time and adopted a riba (interest) based economic system based on the French model...they adapted the penal code one which included the law on apostasy...and i doubt anyone here would compare the Ottomans to ISIS...

    Throughout history in terms of rule and implementation the ruling on apostasy has been death...comparing the Caliphate to nation states isn't an argument...

    Even fringe scholars revered in the West like Averroes said the punishment for apostasy was death...

    Throughout history there has been no disagreement on this point but in an age where Muslims feel the need to apologize for everything you get revisionists...and in Jadz's case Quranists...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mughal View Post
    To understand deen of islam properly, it is absolutely necessary to understand the message of the quran properly. deen of islam is not the name of nonsense of mullahs. What mullahs have given to this ummah is make beliefs and useless rituals in order to derail ummah from deen of islam on behalf of rulers and money lenders.

    Have you seen any book or movie free of rivalry between people? It is always good guys versus bad guys. It is always bad guys conspiring against the good guys. Why do we make such movies and write such books? Because it is a fact that people are like that in the real world. We have law abiding citizens and lawless folks or social and anti social elements in our human societies.

    What we do not question is who is really good guy and why and who is really bad guy and why. This is why we are confused about it. It is not that people who know the quran are mentally ill that they think everyone is working against them, it is a fact. The reason is the quran talks about a proper human community whereas people have personal vested interest to protect against each other so they rather fight for individualism. People are deliberately living as rivals and enemies because it suits a few of us at the top who are making fool of everyone else through various powerful means eg use of mass media. This is how rulers are put in place by money lenders and this is how mullahs are put in place to help further their cause through creating divisions in people in the name of God.

    It is true that people are busy conspiring against the message of the quran at a grand scale but what people do not realise is that it is mullah at the forefront of it all. They have instilled in minds of people certain beliefs which they tell people are from God and because rulers keep their people ignorant, illiterate and uneducated so they being simple minded are easily fooled by mullahs into believing any nonsense in the name of God like a child without much questioning. It is indoctrination that has ruined humanity for so long. The day we stop becoming victims of indoctrination that is the day we have our own minds to reason things out properly. Indoctrination is not only by mullahs but rulers and money lenders as well. They try to fool us using their tricks of trade and keep us locked up in that using their mechanisms just like mullahs use their tricks of the trade and mechanisms to keep us locked up in confusion about God and his message. Rulers use social and political tricks and like wise money lenders use economic and finance based tricks to keep us divided by trying to make us use each other as slaves. It is made possible by nature because people are limited by what they naturally are. For example, some of us are bodily strong while others are weak. Strong can beat us up and use us anyway he likes. It is because one person has natural advantage over another, a few try to become real harmful and destructive people. It is because they can see that they have this strength and that they can use it for their own benefit so they go ahead and use it. In reaction weaker people have no choice but to form alliances to fight the strong people than themselves. Seeing this the strong also join together so we have people separated into two main groups. The advantaged ones and the disadvantaged ones. As people develop more and more the power is no longer personal bodily strength but weapons as well so balance of power keeps changing and loyalties of people also change as new ideas and inventions come about due to interaction between people. This is why individuals became clans and tribes and they ended up creating kingdoms and empires in order to beat each other at it. Power then moved from hands of kings and emperors to hands of mullahs and today it rests in hands of bankers who have all political and religious leaders in the palm of their hand.

    We are today made to believe through set-up educational institutions that if we do not use money for our daily living as a mechanism we will have no way to live our lives which is totally false. The very moment people decide not to use money at all and live as a family the money market will collapse and money lenders will be out of business and use and abuse will end right away. The world as it is will still stand, it is because it is we the people who make the world go round not the money market. They just use money as a trick to fool us into believing that we are better off living by this mechanism and we accept it without questioning this idea.

    The collapse of money market does not change the area of land in the world and it has no affect on its resources or population of people. All it does is gives us a chance to organise and regulate ourselves in a different way ie instead of living as a divided people as rivals and enemies full of hatred for each other and killing each other over nothing we can become a brotherhood of humanity and work just like before but eliminate poverty and disease etc and make progress and prosper together. This is why people who work for personal gains at the expense of others conspire against the message of the quran because it tells them to use their advantages to help each other which they do not want to do. They are ok with taking whatever humanity as a whole has to offer but do not want to give back to humanity what they can. This is why they are criminals because they deliberately commit crimes against humanity, they are anti social elements in human societies. This is why there are good guys and bad guys and you can see who is good guy and why and who is bad guy and why. It is therefore time we started thinking deeper and wider and stopped being frogs in the well. There is no point in attacking deen of islam or the quran, first learn how to make sense of the book by learning about origin and development of language and humanity itself. The quran simply draws our attention to things so that we work hard to know them. This is why we are endowed with brains and senses as well as bodies to go and find out about things and make proper use of everything that is provided in the universe so that mankind keep going from strength to strength with full support of each other.

    There is a slight problem with your perspective...

    You blame Mullahs for everything yet you yourself then offer your own opinion...so are you not also acting as a scholar expecting people to accept your interpretation of Islam over these 'extreme' scholars...why should one choose your opinion and not theirs?...

    The other issue is if you encourage people to read for themselves and understand then that also is not probable...its a REQUIREMENT to rely on scholarship...as a non Arabic speaker for instance how without scholarship should I interpret a verse...how do i understand the grammatical nuances used, where, when and why the verse was revealed...how to address contradictions between verses etc?...the fact is understanding Islam isn't for the layman...

    Lets take the verse 'kill them wherever you find them'...now with the help of Tafsir one can understand what the verse means, its context and also understand what limits are in play...if a layman reads it in isolation they will understand nada...

    Fact is people don't have the time to learn Arabic, or the ability to become scholars and create their own fiqh...so you rely on qualified people...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    Thank you so much Jadz. Are there any verses which say this directly? Because most people I have met actually tell me diffferently

    You are most welcome, Indiafan

    The following are the Verses I alluded to, and as requested by you:

    "And so it is that your Sustainer would never destroy a community for its wrongdoing so long as its people are still unaware (of the meaning of right and wrong)."
    Q6:131

    "For, never would your Sustainer destroy a community for wrong (beliefs alone) so long as its people behave righteously [towards one another]."
    Q11:117


    "...Explaining the above Verse..Razi says: "God's chastisement does not afflict any people merely on account of their holding beliefs amounting to shirk and kufr, but afflicts them only if they persistently commit evil in their mutual dealings, and deliberately hurt {other human beings} and act tyrannically [towards them]. Hence, those who are learned in Islamic Law {al-fuqaha} hold that men's obligations towards God rest upon the principle of (His) forgiveness and liberality, whereas the rights of man are of a stringent nature and must always be strictly observed."
    The Message Of The Qur'an, by Muhammad Asad, Page 334, Note:149

    God, in His Infinite Wisdom, will adjudicate all matters on the Day of Judgement:

    "Verily, as for those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], and those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Magians*, [on the one hand,] and those who are bent on ascribing divinity to aught but God, [on the other,] verily, God will decide between them on Resurrection Day: for, behold, God is Witness to everything."
    Q22:17


    *Magians - 'Al-Majus' - are the followers of Zoroaster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    Does Islam allows a man to remarry without asking his first wife or he always has to take permission of his first wife?


    Good question - the following is a link to an article I wrote about the subject:

    http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/sh...men&highlight=

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    To point out one example of;

    (a) the Quran only position
    (b) Relying on ones own reading and not scholarship

    Lets go to Verse 4:34

    'Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.'

    So can a man beat his wife?...if she misbehaves is it ok to give her a beat down as a final resort?...how bad a beat down can one give her?...

    Now of course tafsir, hadith and scholarship can help clarify these points but you can't have it both ways...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    I will point out as a disclaimer for those who want to learn that Jadz is providing her OWN interpretations...which is fine providing she actually has scholastic credentials...if not then its like taking Islam from any random joe...

    To give a parallel I myself have never ever provided my own interpretation as I am no scholar...what I have always provided is scholastic opinion...and when there is difference of opinion and no consensus among scholarship i have stated as much...

    For Jadz to say outright that there is no punishment for apostasy goes against reputable scholarship...at the very least what she should state is that the majority of scholars say there is a punishment but based on her own scholarship she deems that there isn't...

    And frankly I think the likes of Abu Hanifa and Ibn Kathir who has done the most reputable tafsir of Quran have more credibility than some random on the internet which Jadz is...

    Out of interest Jadz cos you have always been fairly ambiguous on this point...what is your criteria out of interest?...do you believe in mutawaatir hadith?...at least this way people know you are judging from the same criteria as them...
    You need a Scholar to understand Quran? How come our Prophet (PBUH) understood the Quran then? He was no scholar, he didn't even know how to read.

    When you put your faith in someone else to provide you with an explanation or interpretation of simple matters that is when things go wrong. We have as many sects as we have Scholars now. And isn't it funny how all these Scholars read the same book yet come to different conclusions?

    Quran is quite clear to be understood by anyone who is able to read it.

    P.S. Great thread Jadz. And people should avoid asking questions on issues which are present in all religions - Be specific to Islam. This isn't a Religions vs. Atheism thread but misunderstandings regarding Islam


    Whenever Nawaz wins, he divides PMLN equally. He keeps PM for himself and gives L N to the people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    You are most welcome, Indiafan

    The following are the Verses I alluded to, and as requested by you:

    "And so it is that your Sustainer would never destroy a community for its wrongdoing so long as its people are still unaware (of the meaning of right and wrong)."
    Q6:131

    "For, never would your Sustainer destroy a community for wrong (beliefs alone) so long as its people behave righteously [towards one another]."
    Q11:117


    "...Explaining the above Verse..Razi says: "God's chastisement does not afflict any people merely on account of their holding beliefs amounting to shirk and kufr, but afflicts them only if they persistently commit evil in their mutual dealings, and deliberately hurt {other human beings} and act tyrannically [towards them]. Hence, those who are learned in Islamic Law {al-fuqaha} hold that men's obligations towards God rest upon the principle of (His) forgiveness and liberality, whereas the rights of man are of a stringent nature and must always be strictly observed."
    The Message Of The Qur'an, by Muhammad Asad, Page 334, Note:149

    God, in His Infinite Wisdom, will adjudicate all matters on the Day of Judgement:

    "Verily, as for those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], and those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Magians*, [on the one hand,] and those who are bent on ascribing divinity to aught but God, [on the other,] verily, God will decide between them on Resurrection Day: for, behold, God is Witness to everything."
    Q22:17


    *Magians - 'Al-Majus' - are the followers of Zoroaster.
    Thank you again. Beautiful and simple verses. See, no one ever even points this out, right from the beginning I have heard the opposite of this from most people and it even went against common sense.


    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. --Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegitto1 View Post
    You need a Scholar to understand Quran? How come our Prophet (PBUH) understood the Quran then? He was no scholar, he didn't even know how to read.

    When you put your faith in someone else to provide you with an explanation or interpretation of simple matters that is when things go wrong. We have as many sects as we have Scholars now. And isn't it funny how all these Scholars read the same book yet come to different conclusions?

    Quran is quite clear to be understood by anyone who is able to read it.

    P.S. Great thread Jadz. And people should avoid asking questions on issues which are present in all religions - Be specific to Islam. This isn't a Religions vs. Atheism thread but misunderstandings regarding Islam
    Read my post to Mughal...

    Congrats if you think the Quran is clear...you're better than most of us who can't understand context simply by reading a verse...why was the verse revealed? does it represent a command or a recommendation?

    I'll give you the following verse 2:190

    'Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

    And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

    And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.'

    Who is 'them'?
    What are the limits for transgression?
    Is offense allowed or is conflict only defensive?
    Fight them until worship is acknowledged for Allah?...what does this mean? Do they all need to convert?

    So as a layman do answer these questions...

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegitto1 View Post
    You need a Scholar to understand Quran? How come our Prophet (PBUH) understood the Quran then? He was no scholar, he didn't even know how to read.

    When you put your faith in someone else to provide you with an explanation or interpretation of simple matters that is when things go wrong. We have as many sects as we have Scholars now. And isn't it funny how all these Scholars read the same book yet come to different conclusions?

    Quran is quite clear to be understood by anyone who is able to read it.

    P.S. Great thread Jadz. And people should avoid asking questions on issues which are present in all religions - Be specific to Islam. This isn't a Religions vs. Atheism thread but misunderstandings regarding Islam

    Thanks Vegitto

    Muslims have elevated scholars to superstar and semi-divine status. Instead of learning, acquiring knowledge, from them, they are followed, blindly and sheep-like. However, Allah SWT instructs us to follow the life-example of the Prophets (pbut), the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) especially, not scholars, sages, saints and what-have-you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    Thank you again. Beautiful and simple verses. See, no one ever even points this out, right from the beginning I have heard the opposite of this from most people and it even went against common sense.

    You are most welcome

    I started this thread in the hopes Muslims, including myself, might convey the truth about Islam. The reason you have heard the opposite of what these Verses are saying is because a) many Muslims themselves are unaware of them and b) because mass, corporate media, with their political allies, like to portray Islam/Muslims as satanic, evil and murderous.

    I hope people, such as your own good self, will take to reading the Qur'an, because it is open to everyone, is not the exclusive preserve of anyone, and easy to understand. It is better to know the truth about a proposition, or ideology, by studying it in depth, rather than believe all the hype and hysteria, given that Islam receives masses of attention, but of the wrong kind and for all the wrong reasons.

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    "Muslims have elevated scholars to superstar and semi-divine status. Instead of learning, acquiring knowledge, from them, they are followed, blindly and sheep-like"

    Jadz - You seem to do the same with Muhammed Asad. All the threads I have seen of yours, he is the only source your quote.

    To those who do not know Asad, was a marxist jewish convert to islam back in the 1920s, who seems to have been a self taught "shaykh".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    "Muslims have elevated scholars to superstar and semi-divine status. Instead of learning, acquiring knowledge, from them, they are followed, blindly and sheep-like"

    Jadz - You seem to do the same with Muhammed Asad. All the threads I have seen of yours, he is the only source your quote.

    To those who do not know Asad, was a marxist jewish convert to islam back in the 1920s, who seems to have been a self taught "shaykh".
    I've only really seen her quote his translation on Quran - are any of his translations of Quranic Ayat majorly different to other translations?

    Also to add to your 'marxist jewish convert' description ( which is totally irrelevant) he was also a confidante of Allama Iqbal (ra) and supporter of a separate Muslim state ( pakistan) even serving I believe as a junior minister of some sort.

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    i agree that the thing about him being a Jewish convert is irrelevant in terms of judging his scholarship...but so is support for Pakistan...none of these reflect his scholarship...the best way to judge his scholarship is to look at his scholarship...

    His position on the hijab is interesting:

    "The noun khimar (of which khumur is the plural) denotes the head-covering customarily used by Arabian women before and after the advent of Islam. According to most of the classical commentators, it was worn in pre-Islamic times more or less as an ornament and was let down loosely over the wearer's back; and since, in accordance with the fashion prevalent at the time, the upper part of a woman's tunic had a wide opening in the front, her breasts were left bare. Hence, the injunction to cover the bosom by means of a khimar (a term so familiar to the contemporaries of the Prophet) does not necessarily relate to the use of a khimar as such but is, rather, meant to make it clear that a woman's breasts are not included in the concept of what may decently be apparent of her body and should not, therefore, be displayed."

    So what does he define as being decently apparent:

    My interpolation [in the translation of the verse] of the word "decently" reflects the interpretation of the phrase illa ma zahara minha by several of the earliest Islamic scholars, and particularly by Al-Qiffal (quoted by Razi), as "that which a human being may openly show in accordance with prevailing custom (al-'adah al-jariyah)". Although the traditional exponents of Islamic law have for centuries been inclined to restrict the definition of "what may (decently) be apparent" to a woman's face, hands and feet - and sometimes even less than that - we may safely assume that the meaning of illa ma zahara minha is much wider, and that the deliberate vagueness of this phrase is meant to allow for all the time-bound changes that are necessary for man's moral and social growth. The pivotal clause in the above injunction is the demand, addressed in identical terms to men as well as to women, to "lower their gaze and be mindful of their chastity": and this determines the extent of what, at any given time, may legitimately - i.e., in consonance with the Qur'anic principles of social morality - be considered "decent" or "indecent" in a person's outward appearance.'

    A very left field perspective that...and a very new perspective...

  39. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Lol believe what you like...if you actually bother to observe my arguments then I ONLY use Islamic sources...whether that be Tafsir of Quran, hadith, seera or classical scholarship...my opinion doesnt actually enter these discussions...

    eg apostasy...i refer to scholarship that mainstream Muslims view as strong sources...

    So you can continue with the ad hominem nonsense if you so like...but my feelings about Islam are irrelevant...and if you doubt my objectivity then by all means refute my arguments...instead of resorting to judging me...

    Rejection of hadith is shirk according to ahla sunna...that is actually a FACT...you can defend Jadz position if you want but her position has nothing to do with mainstream Islam...
    Dear brother shaykh, there is no such thing in deen of islam as this islam or that islam. Deen of islam is only one and that is in the quran, what you are putting forth as islam is only individual opinions based on peoples' individual levels of knowledge according to what they learned in their lives and put them in form of books. Since deen of islam is only that which is decided by the text of the quran therefore it needs to be understood properly. The purpose of revelation of the quran was not to give people some make beliefs and some useless rituals and label them islam. The message in the quran has nested contexts in which it needs to be understood otherwise mere reading the text makes no sense because things cannot be connected to each other without a proper over all context for making proper sense of them.

    In my posts here and there on this forum I have been explaining about the context. I explained how human languages came about and developed and got there words, concepts and meanings. Why the quran had to be the way it is ie not having far too much detail in it that text became so huge that people could not go through it nor lacking far too much in detail that it made no sense whatsoever even to the very best of developed human minds at the time. I also explained how it was possible for God to explain what he wanted to tell people using a human language. These are fundamental contextual issues before we can say even a single word about the quran. People who have no knowledge of these things have no right to talk about the quran because they are not going to know what the quran is about no matter how hard they tried to know the message of the quran.

    Since understanding of use of language by the quran is very important for proper understanding of the message of the quran therefore understanding of messages in the hadis works is also fully dependent upon proper understanding of the language and the message of the quran. It is because if ahaadees are from the messenger of Allah then he is talking about some issues relating the messages in the quran. So the sense of use of a word in the quran is very important to determine in a proper context and the very same will apply to any message in the hadis of the prophet. If we have little sense of use of a word in the quran then we also have a problem with use of a word in the hadis books as well.

    From the above explanation it should be very clear to everyone that Allah being planner, designer and creator of all things knows things as they are but do we the people know them also as soon as we are born? No we do not, we need to learn things and that takes time and whatever we may come to know still may be incorrect totally or partially. This is why we cannot take explanations of people as basis for ever unless we find nothing wrong with them. If we come to know there is something wrong with them then it is nothing less than stupidity to keep holding onto them. It is a matter of fact that world keeps changing with time and babies grow up so nothing stays the very same in this universe for ever. This change also tells us to not to have permanent opinions about everything because our knowledge about things changes with time. So we can stick to formulas but only use them where they can be applied and only for as long as they apply and invent new ones where that becomes necessary.

    Since our knowledge about things changes with time and learning so what the quran talks about cannot be given permanent meanings by us in every sense because we cannot know for sure what it means by certain words exactly. It is because to know what God is telling us we need to have similar information in our minds as well about the thing he is talking about and that information cannot come into our minds till we go out and find out about the thing the quran is talking about. This means to define meanings of words used in the quran we need to be research and exploration oriented, not sitting around on our behinds and talking about things endlessly not really knowing a thing about them. For example, when Allah talks about the earth, do we know what he means by it? Have we researched and explored the earth enough to make the proper sense of what the quran is talking about when it talks about the earth? The quran talks about galaxies and stars but have we come to know about them and if so how much? It talks about human beings but what do we know about human beings? It talks about human languages but what do we know about human languages? Each and everything the quran talks about it talks about from perspective of God and we have yet to get to know things. The quran talks about mountains, what do we know about them? It talks about rivers and seas and clouds and rain and so many other things but how many of us are aware of all those things and to what degree? This is why it is silly to rely on any work on the quran or hadis permanently because things out there continue happening and that demands that we do not stick to anything permanently but only if it is right and for as long as we know no better.

    The purpose of the revelation of the quran is not to instil make beliefs in mind of people or to give them useless things to do as rituals but to guide mankind where it is necessary so that purpose for which Allah has created mankind becomes fulfilled. Now one has to ask what that purpose is? It is to become aware of Allah through becoming aware of his creation and revelation. Allah is a living being and a living being is not expected to be free of doing something to make its presence felt to itself or anything else. The only way he could express himself was through creation and revelation so he ended up creating the universe and sending revelations for guiding people because he created a being who could use his brain and senses and learn and do things all by himself. He created him so that one day man becomes self aware and then aware of other things and then becomes aware of his revelations and travels through the universe to see what his creator has done and be awe struck at creation and development of himself. This is how plan of God will find its fulfilment. So man has yet many great things to accomplish according to the message in the quran and it is going take ages.

    The basic requirement for rising of humanity is its own set-up as a proper human community. A community that is self organised and self regulated to fulfil program given by Allah by accomplishing the stated goals according to given guidelines. This is why to build a proper human community the quran not only has a program but guidelines as well for a constitution and laws so that mankind bring about a kingdom based upon them as a brotherhood or an ummah or a proper human family with support of each other. This is why the quran must be understood properly and its message must be taken to whole of humanity so that its stated objectives could be achieved by people themselves for ensuring their own well being with help of each other. All this explanation is sufficient to make it very clear what words used in the quran mean and why.

    This context explains what is meant by word JIHAAD for example. It means making all possible efforts to gain proper knowledge about things including the revelation of God and once one has become learned one is required to become teacher for others. Deen of islam is all for educational revolution because otherwise its agenda cannot be fulfilled. Only highly motivated and fully dedicated, highly educated and highly thoughtful people can make all this possible.

    While I am at it let me try and explain some more words used in the quran for its better understanding.

    Let us take words like SADAQAH, KHAIRAAT, SAALIHAAT, HASNAAT. It is very important to remember that deen of islam is free of concept of money ie it is not a money based way of life. Deen of islam has nothing at all to do with concept of charity and alms for the poor. Islam is a family or community based way of life and family or community is all poor or all rich depending upon how it is organised and regulated for production and distribution of goods and services so that each and every person in the community tries his best to produce as much as one can and takes from the community whatever community can afford for individuals to the maximum one needs if community can afford that.

    Word SADAQAH is from root SWAAD, DAAL and QAAF. It has many meanings but main things is the concept revolves around truth or something that proves true. Whatever efforts people put into doing things and they get the results is called fruit of their labour. In the context of deen of islam when people accept deen of islam it means they are accepting the idea of living by way of life as told by the quran and they are declaring their commitment to furthering the cause of deen of islam. The world out there already has a kingdom based on deen of islam or it does not and people need to bring one about. So people who make any kind of contributions for furthering the cause of islam either in form of maintenance of kingdom based upon deen of islam are bring one about is called SADAQAH. It is called sadaqah because they have proven their commitment to deen of islam true.

    Word KHAIRAAT is from root KHAA, YAA and RAA. This root also has many meanings but idea revolves around choosing to do something to make up for what is lacking in someone which prevents one from fulfilling his need or role or desire or goal or task or mission etc. In the context of the quran people who stand in for each other to ensure the proper functioning of proper human community are contributing something to their community so they are called AKHYAAR ie people who choose to stand up for others to ensure well being of whole of their community. So KHAIR is any work done to ensure well being of the proper human community.

    Word SAALIAAT is from root SWAAD, LAAM and HAA. It also has many meanings but the idea revolves around fixing, maintaining and improving things that are broken in such a way that thing is at least as good as it was before being broken or that it yet better. In the quranic context it means people who work hard to fix human society by working on relationships between mankind to remove rifts and conflicts from between them and repair any fractures in community and to do things that help community develop and make progress in order to turn people into a united human community that is proper.

    Word HASANAAT is from root HAA, SEEN and NOON. This root also has various meanings but all revolve around concept of beauty. In the quranic context it means such works by people that make existence of mankind blissful, dignified and secure. In other words people are told to do what makes their world beautiful.

    The question one has to ask is, what makes the world go round? The works people do. If they do works told by the quran then they will end up with a world as promised but if they will go their own way then world will be whatever they want it to be according to what they do. The idea is very simple that if people will do works that make the world beautiful, they will make it so and if they will do harmful and destructive works that make world ugly then that is what they will end up with.

    This is the message of the quran in its proper context. Is this the quranic understanding of mullahs? If not why not? This is what people need to figure out ie why mullahs are deliberately misleading mankind about the quranic message? What do they get out of it? No one does anything for no reason at all, so why mullahs are doing what they are doing? The only possible answers are, they have no idea what the actual message of the quran is so they are saying about the message of the quran whatever comes to their minds as par their own state of knowledge or on top of that they are deliberately misleading people because they get paid for it in some way from some one who benefits from their such works. The only people therefore behind mullahs could be rulers and money lenders. All these people are working together against humanity hidden from the public view.

    regards and all the best.
    Last edited by Mughal; 23rd October 2014 at 19:41.

  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    I don't want to derail the thread which is jadz' to answer but a quranist is someone who completely rejects hadeeth

    as a an iranian apologist i would have thought Jadz' would have rejected only Sunni hadith and accepted Shia hadeeth as Shia reject Abu Hurrayah and also Hadrat Aisha among other companions who have narrated many hadeeth but Jadz' rejects all hadeeth
    I'm hoping that it's not just all for Jadz' to answer though. Lot of work for one person to answer all the questions. Surely we have heaps of people here who have lots of knowledge which we can leverage.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    That's an odd point to make considering there is no such thing as an Islamic state...the only place that claim to be an Islamic state is actually ISIS...the rest are nation states who don't implement Islamic rules...

    The Ottoman state considered the last known caliphate adopted Hanafi fiqh...the punishment for apostasy during the empire was death up until 1844 when the Tanzimat reforms were implemented...the Tanzimat reforms basically were the removal of Islamic rules from the empire...they also abandoned the jizya at this time and adopted a riba (interest) based economic system based on the French model...they adapted the penal code one which included the law on apostasy...and i doubt anyone here would compare the Ottomans to ISIS...

    Throughout history in terms of rule and implementation the ruling on apostasy has been death...comparing the Caliphate to nation states isn't an argument...

    Even fringe scholars revered in the West like Averroes said the punishment for apostasy was death...

    Throughout history there has been no disagreement on this point but in an age where Muslims feel the need to apologize for everything you get revisionists...and in Jadz's case Quranists...
    What is a Quranist exactly? Someone who considers the Quran which is purportedly the direct word of God as above traditions related by human scholars down the centuries? I'm not sure how that is being any way apologist since the Quran itself is not exactly a liberal manifesto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    What is a Quranist exactly? Someone who considers the Quran which is purportedly the direct word of God as above traditions related by human scholars down the centuries? I'm not sure how that is being any way apologist since the Quran itself is not exactly a liberal manifesto.
    No not at all...Quranists also have scholarship of their own...

    Quranists basically only believe in the legitimacy of the Quran...which is bizarre considering the myriad of verses in the Quran where Allah states that Muslims should follow him AND his messenger...so they reject hadith, ijma etc...basically all sources of the Sunnah...

    Mainstream Islam and scholarship involves incorporating hadith for rulings...Quranist scholars don't use hadith...this is the difference between them...only Quranists think they are Muslim...no-one else does...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Verses in the Quran contradict each other...so how does one decide which verses are correct?...specific verses even abrogate others...so contradictions openly exist in the Quran...
    'Abrogation' itself is a versatile field : Ibn Hazm more than 200 (if I correctly remember) and the greatest scholar produced in the SB, Shah Waliullah, only 5 (and by 'abrogation' he meant 'betterment' or 'explanation', in matters related to inheritance, divorce, etc) Shah Waliullah also refuted the 'abrogation' made by some great scholars (not less than an as Suyuti!). There have been hundreds of books on this subject, and it's not because of 'contradictions' which supposedly 'openly exist', but the sometimes quite personal reading of specific scholars - who, "technically", don't have the authority of the Church Fathers in Christianity or such, aren't "inspired by the Holy Spirit" and thus might be refuted on these matters (like Shah Waliullah with as Suyuti).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    What is a Quranist exactly? Someone who considers the Quran which is purportedly the direct word of God as above traditions related by human scholars down the centuries? I'm not sure how that is being any way apologist since the Quran itself is not exactly a liberal manifesto.
    The "Quranist" movement was born in the 9th century, under Ibrahim an Nazzam, a Mutazili theologian who wrote few books (but we only have some fragments today) and who, for instance, called Abu Huraira "untrustworthy", Abu Huraira being the main target of sceptical scholars, incl. Westerners (Goldziher, etc), simply because he happens to be the one who transmitted the greatest number of traditions. He was critical of the Hadith literature, but didn't totally reject it.
    It remained quite cryptic until the 19th century, when it revived into an intellectual movement in the Subcontinent (interestingly, mainly in the Punjab), with figures such as Abdullah Chakrawali, Aslam Jairajpuri, ... and especially Ghulam Ahmed Pervez, a personal friend and intellectual collaborator of Allama Iqbal. But it's to note that they may be sceptical of narrations "not in tone with the Qur'anic spirit" (as they call it) but don't dogmatically reject all of them, as modern day "Quranists" (à la Edip Yuksel) do. So for prayer, zakât, .. they do rely on the ahadith, a school of thought Muhammad Asad probably belonged to (but his translation is very good - kept the linguistic subtleties in mind, probably has to do with his model being al Zamakshari).


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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    There is a slight problem with your perspective...

    You blame Mullahs for everything yet you yourself then offer your own opinion...so are you not also acting as a scholar expecting people to accept your interpretation of Islam over these 'extreme' scholars...why should one choose your opinion and not theirs?...

    The other issue is if you encourage people to read for themselves and understand then that also is not probable...its a REQUIREMENT to rely on scholarship...as a non Arabic speaker for instance how without scholarship should I interpret a verse...how do i understand the grammatical nuances used, where, when and why the verse was revealed...how to address contradictions between verses etc?...the fact is understanding Islam isn't for the layman...

    Lets take the verse 'kill them wherever you find them'...now with the help of Tafsir one can understand what the verse means, its context and also understand what limits are in play...if a layman reads it in isolation they will understand nada...

    Fact is people don't have the time to learn Arabic, or the ability to become scholars and create their own fiqh...so you rely on qualified people...

    Dear brother shaykh, yes I blame mullahs and people as well because if people did not act like sheep, they will not be in the situation that they are. Mullahs are the ones who tried to justify one man ruling another in the name of deen of islam. Mullahs tried to give legitimacy to money lenders in the name of deen of islam. Mullahs also tried to legitimise their own position in the name of deen of islam in the ummah as its rightful leaders. This is why we have social, political, economic and religious institutions, systems, structures, procedures and practices in the ummah that have nothing at all to do with deen of islam. Ignorance, illiteracy and lack of education are all results of this set-up by rulers, money lenders and mullahs.

    The main point in all this is mullahs have turned islam into a personality cult independent of book of Allah. They build a false reputation around a figure and then stop people from being critical of such a figure and then they share their invented stories about these figures they prop up that make their nonsense look legitimate. This is their way of attacking deen of islam to prevent it from becoming known as it is or a reality. No wonder the quran tells us that people cloth the truth with their falsehood, this is how they do it. When the quran criticises people of the book, it is criticising the mullahs because they give false meaning to words in the scripture whereby they try to turn den of Allah into a religion.

    This does not mean there are no scholars among people who claim to be muslims but one can know they are scholars because they explain things the way they know them and do not shove their explanations down the throat of the ummah with a rod. They simply do their duty as a service to humanity being God conscious.

    As for being a scholar you do not need to be a slave of any mullah because all information about deen of islam can be understood through general information by way of general education. To learn reading and writing you can go to anyone who knows reading and writing and learn of him how to read and write. Such a person does not even need to be a religious person at all, in fact such person can be an atheist. One can learn all the information and how to make sense of things from anyone at all provided one knows waht one is teaching. Which mullah do you need to go to to learn maths or science? To do any research or exploration work you get involved with people who are doing that and you will come to know that no need for mullah at all. Once you are wise enough then read the quran and see what it says for yourself. There is no need for going to anyone for learning the quran. It is a book like any other book to read and understand provided you know about things the quran is talking about. After all we are doing a lot of things without any help of any mullah at all.

    As for learning grammar it is not quran specific but general part of learning language. Do we not know what, nouns, pronouns, adjectives, verbs, adverbs, prepositions, conjunctions and article etc are? People are silly to think they cannot know things without mullahs. The fact is it is because of mullahs that we have lost the proper sense of message of the quran due to all sorts of confusions these people have created in our minds about the book of Allah.

    Ask a mullahs what azaan and namaaz are about. They have no idea because they have no idea of the context in which the quran explains these things. According to the quran Allah had exacted a covenant of each of his messengers and that is what azaan and MISAAQ is about. It is reaffirmation of promise to Allah that we will not live by rule of law of anyone other than Allah or not live by any way of life other than the one advised by Allah. Allah therefore promised that if you will stick to this deal then my set-up systems and laws will deliver the goods as promised ie a blissful, dignified and secure life. This is what surah al-faatihah is all about. AZAAN is a call or an invitation to this way of life advised by Allah because if people came together and lived the way the quran explains then they could have a successful life. What mullahs call SALAAH is in actual fact covenant affirmation not SALAAH. SALAAH and ZAKAAH are very different from what mullahs tell us. SALAAH is community network and Allah repeatedly tells mankind establish SALAAH ie a proper human community network. He also tells people ATAA AL ZAKAAH. ATTA means to obtain, reach, give or grant etc etc. Word ZAKAAH means to free something from all obstacles that stop something from growth to its full potential. In the quranic context it means to get rid of all obstacles and problems in the human population that stop it from growth to its full potential that Allah has created it for. It does not mean 2.5% of one's excessive property per annum as mullahs will have us believe. That was their trick whereby they helped the rich become more rich by giving away a tiny amount of what they have each year. What a way to make fool of the ignorant, illiterate and uneducated to accept poverty in the name of God.

    Do we not know that mullahs tell us it is up to God to grant people sustenance so he grant it plenty to some and very limited to others. This is not the message of the quran instead the quran tells us that Allah has provided for mankind all that they will ever need including provisions and guidance. So the actual message is, people organise and regulate yourselves into a proper human community and work hard to produce and distribute what is provided for your sustenance so that all of you end up with blissful, dignified and secure life as a proper human community. Allah has granted some with advantages over others but not for taking undue advantages of each other but to use that to benefit each other. Mullah have divided mankind by telling them, it is ok for the advantaged to take undue advantages of each other because that the way Allah has created them. Only an ignorant or a foolish person could attribute such stupidity and nonsense to Allah.

    The quran makes a water tight case for proper human community and that clearly shows where mullahs stand in light of the quran as well as rulers and money lenders. The quran does not forbid interest on money lending but using any mechanism or trick whereby some people may end up benefiting at the expense of others. It is the actual business for profit which the quran forbids. It is because when you go for making profit in your dealing at the expense of each other you are creating the foundation for use and abuse of each other for personal gains. The trade in the quranic context is not business for profit but working with each other as members of the proper human community who ensure well being of each other. This is why production and distribution is decided by the community not by individual through free market based on making money letting humanity go to wolves. The quran uses words like TIJAARAH, BAEE, RIBAA, ZAKAAH, MAASH in very different way than mullahs have us believe. Word TIJAARAH does mean business but not the business in sense of making profit using money for buying and selling things to each other. This use of business is in the sense of working for well being of each other or dealing with each other in away that ensures well being of all people as a proper human community. This is why we say, mind your own business ie keep yourself to your own work and not interfere in works of others. So word TIJAARAH in the quranic context means work and this work is whatever community has assigned for its individuals. Remember it is these workers themselves who are part of community decisions at the same time. I have explained that in full detail how it all works in my other posts.

    There are many things wrongs with mullahs' explanation of the quran. No two things connect together or make any sense whatsoever. Allah has created this universe and made it work on basis of cause and effect not that things happen in this universe without any cause. It is mullah who has told us that Allah does anything he wants to do so cause and effect mean nothing at all. This is why we have people waiting for miracles and people who believe in magic powers of people. See what such foolish concepts are doing to humanity throughout the world. Fatalism is another idea out of Pandora box of mullahs. See what taqdeer means according to mullahs stupidity. The word TAQDEER actually comes from root QAAF, DAAL and RAA. The idea revolves around setting up or putting in place measures for something. Allah has put in place measures for ensuring all things work according to his plan. Mullahs have turned the idea into concept of already decided destiny of people by God.

    You talk about SHAANE NAZOOL, this concept needs to be understood for what it really is. You see the quran is revealed to guide people not to follow their needs when they need them after they ask God for guidance. The quran is IMAAM not MUQTADI. This is very important point. The quran is supposed to be the leader of people not their follower. If the quran is the leader then does it make any sense that God does not guide people for what they need and only responds to them when they prompt God? This does not mean all stories told under shaane nazool are totally wrong because people when they saw things happening they simply told the stories to give historical account from their perspective. Some may have added some nonsense as well but the concept of SHAANE NAZOOL is a false concept. It is because it means God did not tell all he wanted to tell people because those people did not ask him for lot of things they were supposed to ask because questions of people never end. If one could see it SHAANE NAZOOL concept is a hidden attack on integrity of deen of islam.

    Do you know when the books of hadis and fiqh were written down? They were written down long after the end of kingdom that was set-up by the messenger of Allah. From 100 years later till 300 years later according scholars. If these books were originally written down earlier they were manipulated by rulers and money lenders through mullahs later on. They added things in them to justify their positions as rulers and money lender and religious leaders to make fool of the ummah. They have been successful till now but may be not for much longer. People who have education are waking up to what the actual reality may be about deen of Allah.

    Here is a rough flow chart for establishment of islamic way of life based kingdom.

    1)people should know goals and guidelines as individuals

    2)they should know needs of people and available manpower and resources as individuals

    3)they should work out all necessary things as individuals that need to be decided at community level through consultation as an agenda for coming together to decide things.

    3)they should get together as a community

    4)they should go through consultation process on the agenda of the meeting and agree on what needs to be discussed and done to get the ball rolling

    5)they should set up institutions required for carrying out various plans of actions that will be needed for fulfilling needs of all people in the community in every way possible

    6)they should work out all plans of actions in each and every detail and go for community consultation to see if the plans of actions are fit for the set out purposes to be carried out

    7)they should as a community distribute responsibilities to each and every institution and the rights as well for a set period of time and review and revise and readjust things as need be.

    8)they should work out all social, political and economic systems, structures, procedures and practices to each and every minute detail possible then go through community consultation process for agreement on all this.

    9)they should as a community select or elect appropriate people for carrying out specific roles for each and every institution for a fixed period of time but on trial basis for a few months and if all is ok then keep people on otherwise make appropriate changes as needed till a proper balance is struck.

    10)they should implement program, constitution and law for fulfilling the set goals, and keep monitoring each and everything at all levels for problems and if any show up take care of them without delay

    11)proper education and training is backbone of all this and it should never be neglected

    12)as a new thing in place there are going to be plenty of problems but as time goes on if appropriate steps are taken for solving them then it should not take long for the whole machinery to start running smoothly

    13) the very basic thing is land and resources and means of production and distribution and proper organisation of human population and its proper regulation so that all have a reasonably comfortable life and make progress and prosper.

    In simple words, this is what the Quran teaches us as the Islamic way of life and doing all this is called ibaadah=worship of Allah. In the Quranic context there is no such thing as worship in sense of POOJA PAAT of Allah like people of religions do. There is no way any clever people could beat this way of life. The Quranic way of life is totally different from all other ways of life kufaar(=the opponents of way of life advised by Allah) will ever come up with. It is a way of life whereby each person lives for others not against others hunting down each other for personal gains at the expense of each other as in capitalist system. This is why there is no concept of rulers among brothers ie no masters no slaves just members of the very same one united human family. No one is rich and no one is poor. All people are children of humanity and the concern is for the well being and prosperity of each other thereby of humanity as a whole. All work for the good of each other and all share ups and downs together that is why there is no excessive burden on individuals due to balanced form of life. This is what makes life beautiful for those who live for it and makes them eligible for awards in hereafter. This is how Islam removes unevenness and divisions by putting responsibilities on shoulders of those who have advantages over others ie adults look after children and when children become adults and adults grow into old age people they are looked after by those children who have grown into adults and so the cycles goes on. It is because none of the people is totally disadvantaged rather each person has advantage over others one way or the other and when all work together on brotherly basis, it matters not who is adult and who is old, who is tall and who short, who is fat and who is thin because there is always somebody there to help do what needs to be done. So no one gets stuck for doing anything.

    I can go on about many more things but this is enough for now to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that mullahs are enemies of deen of islam. It is because they do not want people to know the actual deen of islam which they have covered up with their falsehood and labelled it deen of islam. It is time for ummah to get some education and remove that cover and let the light of deen of islam shine upon the world so that humanity may find its way to a blissful, dignified and secure existence.

    regards and all the best.

  45. #125
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    1) Does Koran Mention Jesus Christ? IF so what is written about him?
    2)I have heard many times that Old Testament of bible and even Torah has similarities with Koran, Is it true? If it is true, then can we assume that these religions talk about the same GOD.
    3)Regarding Hijab/Burkha is it mandatory( i know there have been quite a few discussions on this) but i want to know what is written in the book exactly.
    4) Why is Friday important day to Muslims what is it's significance?

    Thanks in advance Jadz.

  46. #126
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    Are there missionaries in Islam? Or if not missionaries, people who try to do outreach and try to educate others about Islam?

    Obviously Islam is not centrally organised the way Catholicism is, but are there groups that try to do outreach and project to help the less fortunate? I know that there is the Red Crescent.

    I'm going to ask something that is probably really sensitive but I've always been confused about. What exactly is the Sunni-Shia divide about? I know it has to do with the succession after the Prophet Mohammed's death but what are the main differences between the two groups? For example the main difference between Orthodox Christians and Catholics really stemmed from a political split between the Orthodox Church of the East and the Roman Catholic Church of the West (Constantinople vs Rome), with both patriarchs of each group excommunicating each other in the 9th century. Main difference had to do with papal authority (the authority of the Pope over the Orthodox patriarchs) as well as whether the Holy Spirit descends from both the Father and the Son or just the Father in the Trinity (this led to a dispute in how the Nicene Creed was worded) and even something as simple as whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist (I guess in the 9th century this was important).

    What about the Sunni-Shia? What are the main differences? Both theological and political?


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    Also this may be a stupid question - but what is the significance of the beard in Islam? What happens to Muslims from countries such as those in South East Asia like Malaysia and Indonesia where facial hair is harder to grow? What happens if they cannot grow a beard?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    "Muslims have elevated scholars to superstar and semi-divine status. Instead of learning, acquiring knowledge, from them, they are followed, blindly and sheep-like"

    Jadz - You seem to do the same with Muhammed Asad. All the threads I have seen of yours, he is the only source your quote.

    To those who do not know Asad, was a marxist jewish convert to islam back in the 1920s, who seems to have been a self taught "shaykh".


    Muhammad Asad was a great Muslim scholar - he acquired knowledge of the language of the Qur'an, and the Qur'an itself, and travelled widely and extensively across the Arab/Muslim world. He is one of the composers of the Pakistan Constitution.

    I am also 'self-taught' - or rather, I am taught directly by Allah SWT, al-hamdu li-Llah. When you have acquired knowledge, attained a degree of wisdom, perhaps you will also have learned how to engage in polite, but effective, intellectual discourse.

    For the record: I quote from the Message of the Qur'an, by Muhammad Asad; The Glorious Qur'an, by Abdul Majid Daryabadi; and the Word for Word English Translation of the Qur'an, by Aftab Alam Khan.

    The Asad translation has extensive quotes from the great scholars and thinkers of the past - you will find such a quote from one of them, Razi, above.

    If you, with all due respect, concentrated upon Ayaatu-Llah instead focusing your attention upon me - as flattering as that is - you might, just might, learn something. However if you, like some others here, wish to discredit me by discrediting my source material - then be my guest. This is supposed to be a learning and sharing experience, but I suppose some Muslims have no time for either, but reserve their time to target people they feel threatened by, or wish to undermine.

    Hasbee-Allah - wa Uhibbu-LLah!

  49. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    Also this may be a stupid question - but what is the significance of the beard in Islam? What happens to Muslims from countries such as those in South East Asia like Malaysia and Indonesia where facial hair is harder to grow? What happens if they cannot grow a beard?

    OZ - the beard, like the headscarf, have become religions themselves. As if God will judge human beings according to beard or scarf, the very idea makes a mockery of Islam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niishaa View Post
    1) Does Koran Mention Jesus Christ? IF so what is written about him?
    2)I have heard many times that Old Testament of bible and even Torah has similarities with Koran, Is it true? If it is true, then can we assume that these religions talk about the same GOD.
    3)Regarding Hijab/Burkha is it mandatory( i know there have been quite a few discussions on this) but i want to know what is written in the book exactly.
    4) Why is Friday important day to Muslims what is it's significance?

    Thanks in advance Jadz.
    Great questions Niishaa!

    1)Yes, the Qur'an mentions Jesus (pbuh) a lot. He is described as 'Abdu-Llah' - the slave, or servant, of Allah (God) - and the son of Mary (pbuh). He is also described as a Messenger of God, the trinity is rejected, as is the belief in the son-ship: that is, Jesus was only a Prophet, possessed of vast knowledge - the Torah, Gospels, and true wisdom - but he was not, nor ever claimed to be, the 'son' of God.

    2) Yes, the Qur'an itself states that it is continuation and confirmation of the Torah, Books of the Prophets, Psalms of David and Gospels. This is why the essential, or core, message is the same: namely, that 'there is only One God' and that all of the Prophets preached, and practiced, this. Again, yes, Judaism, Christianity and Islam - the Abrahamic faiths - are more similar than different, all were revealed in Semitic languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic respectively, and all speak about God in much the same way.

    3) The only thing mandatory, regarding dress, is a measured, modest and moderate appearance, combined with the same kind of behaviour. The veil is not mentioned in the Qur'an at all: the head-covering simply applies to all traditional, conservative and religious societies. Women have been dressing modestly and covering their hair - even in Europe - for thousands of years. It is only in recent time that liberal forces and ideologies have resulted in women dressing less modestly than earlier. However, I do not wear a scarf, but consider myself a true believer. God, in His Infinite Wisdom, requires human beings to dress appropriately and suitable, so as not to be seen, or viewed, as sex objects.

    4) I do not know. But think, as the Jewish holy day is the Sabbath, Saturday, and the Christian one is Sunday, the Muslim day of congregation is earlier, on Friday - however, all shops and malls are only closed for the duration of the prayer at mosque, after that people go back to work, or to shop, and so on. There is a Chapter entitled 'Al-Jumu'ah' 'Friday', which details the importance of gathering together to perform salaat - prayer.

    You are most welcome!

  51. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    Are there missionaries in Islam? Or if not missionaries, people who try to do outreach and try to educate others about Islam?

    Obviously Islam is not centrally organised the way Catholicism is, but are there groups that try to do outreach and project to help the less fortunate? I know that there is the Red Crescent.

    I'm going to ask something that is probably really sensitive but I've always been confused about. What exactly is the Sunni-Shia divide about? I know it has to do with the succession after the Prophet Mohammed's death but what are the main differences between the two groups? For example the main difference between Orthodox Christians and Catholics really stemmed from a political split between the Orthodox Church of the East and the Roman Catholic Church of the West (Constantinople vs Rome), with both patriarchs of each group excommunicating each other in the 9th century. Main difference had to do with papal authority (the authority of the Pope over the Orthodox patriarchs) as well as whether the Holy Spirit descends from both the Father and the Son or just the Father in the Trinity (this led to a dispute in how the Nicene Creed was worded) and even something as simple as whether leavened or unleavened bread should be used in the Eucharist (I guess in the 9th century this was important).

    What about the Sunni-Shia? What are the main differences? Both theological and political?


    Well, Muslims are supposed to convey the Message of Islam, and invite people to it, but always with knowledge and wisdom. There is to be no 'compulsion' in matters of faith - Q2:256 - and thus, there are no missionaries like Christian ones. Islam is all-inclusive, not exclusive to Arabs or brown people. This is why, when people actually learn about its real message, they become Muslims.

    Yes, the Sunni-Shi'a divide is, in the main, about the succession, and - ultimately - about the leadership of the Muslim community. There are no real theological differences, in that all Muslims believe in the One God, in the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), in the Prophets (pbut) who preceded him, in the Qur'an, in Hadith (sayings/doings of the Prophet - though there are sectarian versions), the Day of Judgement, Heaven and Hell, the Afterlife, and so on.

    One of my teachers of the Qur'an is Shi'a, and she is like a sister, a family member. I have learned, from her, that there are differences here and there, with Sunnis, such as manner of prayer, and other such matters relating to the practice of the religion. As she is Iraqi, she - along with my Lebanese friend - informed me that Shi'a and Sunnis intermarried for centuries - similar to Catholics and Protestants - but that it is only in recent times that the sectarian divide has become much more apparent. Possibly on account of Western meddling - and divide/rule - in the Arab/Muslim world.

    Of course, there is no doubt that extremism has been on the rise, with some Sunnis claiming Shi'as are not Muslims, and some Shi'as claiming Sunnis are not true Muslims. But on the whole, Muslims pray together - though of course, there are sectarian mosques - during the Hajj pilgrimage, and fast during Ramadan.

    I hope this is helpful.

  52. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    Muhammad Asad was a great Muslim scholar - he acquired knowledge of the language of the Qur'an, and the Qur'an itself, and travelled widely and extensively across the Arab/Muslim world. He is one of the composers of the Pakistan Constitution.

    I am also 'self-taught' - or rather, I am taught directly by Allah SWT, al-hamdu li-Llah. When you have acquired knowledge, attained a degree of wisdom, perhaps you will also have learned how to engage in polite, but effective, intellectual discourse.

    For the record: I quote from the Message of the Qur'an, by Muhammad Asad; The Glorious Qur'an, by Abdul Majid Daryabadi; and the Word for Word English Translation of the Qur'an, by Aftab Alam Khan.

    The Asad translation has extensive quotes from the great scholars and thinkers of the past - you will find such a quote from one of them, Razi, above.

    If you, with all due respect, concentrated upon Ayaatu-Llah instead focusing your attention upon me - as flattering as that is - you might, just might, learn something. However if you, like some others here, wish to discredit me by discrediting my source material - then be my guest. This is supposed to be a learning and sharing experience, but I suppose some Muslims have no time for either, but reserve their time to target people they feel threatened by, or wish to undermine.

    Hasbee-Allah - wa Uhibbu-LLah!

    Tbf Jadz no-one has an issue with YOU the person...the discussion has been about your criteria and your sources...there have been no ad hominem attacks against you...simply people have said that your criteria isn't mainstream...can you accept that the Quranist position isn't the predominant Islamic position and you represent a fringe view...so when you provide Islamic opinions people like Oz God can be aware that these aren't general views...

    Your position on the hijab and the beard for instance is far removed from the mainstream...you're entitled to your opinions and i'm sure you're sincere but you should be clear and at least state that you represent the Quranist strand of Islam...

    Also your dogma is a bit off...you provide opinions as if they are the only ones that are valid...so at least inform people when there is ikhtilaaf (difference of opinion) on an issue...

    You have presented hijab as though it has nothing to do with Islam which is far removed from any old school scholarship...what is awrah then for a woman?...

  53. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    Also this may be a stupid question - but what is the significance of the beard in Islam? What happens to Muslims from countries such as those in South East Asia like Malaysia and Indonesia where facial hair is harder to grow? What happens if they cannot grow a beard?
    Within Sunni Islam there are four main schools of thought...Hanafi, Shafii, Hanbali and Maliki...

    Hanafis tend to be found in Asian parts that aren't the gulf and Turkey...
    Shafiis tend to be found in the Middle East...
    Malikis in North Africa...
    And Hanbalis in the Gulf...Wahabis are an offshoot of Hanbalis...

    The deal with the beard is that Muslims are required to follow Allah and his messenger...so the Prophet grew a beard and there are plenty of evidence which refer to the beard...

    all four schools believe it as obligation and should not be shorter than a fists length...

    there are alternate opinions that regard it as recommended and not obligation...

    And Muslims are judged on their adherence to Islam...so for Jadz to suggest that wearing a hijab or growing a beard are irrelevant is odd to the say the least...growing a beard is deemed worship...if its an obligation then by not having one this is a sin...and if one takes the other opinions that they are recommendations then again it is beneficial to have one as a form of worship...

  54. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Within Sunni Islam there are four main schools of thought...Hanafi, Shafii, Hanbali and Maliki...

    Hanafis tend to be found in Asian parts that aren't the gulf and Turkey...
    Shafiis tend to be found in the Middle East...
    Malikis in North Africa...
    And Hanbalis in the Gulf...Wahabis are an offshoot of Hanbalis...

    The deal with the beard is that Muslims are required to follow Allah and his messenger...so the Prophet grew a beard and there are plenty of evidence which refer to the beard...

    all four schools believe it as obligation and should not be shorter than a fists length...

    there are alternate opinions that regard it as recommended and not obligation...

    And Muslims are judged on their adherence to Islam...so for Jadz to suggest that wearing a hijab or growing a beard are irrelevant is odd to the say the least...growing a beard is deemed worship...if its an obligation then by not having one this is a sin...and if one takes the other opinions that they are recommendations then again it is beneficial to have one as a form of worship...
    So the length of the beard influences someone's adherence to Islam? Is this the same as abstaining from meat on Fridays during Holy Week for Christians? What happens if you are physically unable to grow a beard to a fist's length? I'm assuming that exceptions would be made?

    I can understand the hijab because it's about modesty. But a hijab can be worn by any female. Not every male can grow a beard. The reason I brought it up is I have a friend from Malaysia, he is Chinese Malay (I guess he is a Hanafi) and Muslim and always struggled to grow a beard, the best he could do was a bit of stubble, certainly not a fist length. He always felt guilty about it.


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  55. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    So the length of the beard influences someone's adherence to Islam? Is this the same as abstaining from meat on Fridays during Holy Week for Christians? What happens if you are physically unable to grow a beard to a fist's length? I'm assuming that exceptions would be made?

    I can understand the hijab because it's about modesty. But a hijab can be worn by any female. Not every male can grow a beard. The reason I brought it up is I have a friend from Malaysia, he is Chinese Malay (I guess he is a Hanafi) and Muslim and always struggled to grow a beard, the best he could do was a bit of stubble, certainly not a fist length. He always felt guilty about it.
    The issue is related to trimming...so if you can't grow a beard then of course you can't be held accountable for not having one...so your Malay friend shouldn't feel guilty from an Islamic perspective...

    As for length of beard indicating adherence...its a form of worship...so if one believe it to be an obligation and grows it then it is rewardable...if he doesn't adhere to it then its a sinful act...you are judged on outward acts by Allah provided you do them with the correct intentions...

    So if person A prays to impress his friend this isn't a rewardable action...its legitimacy won't be recognized by Allah..
    If person B does it to please Allah then it is a rewardable action...
    If person C doesnt pray then he is committing sin...

    A and C are in similar boats despite one doing the action and the other not...

    This whole I love Allah and don't need to do outward acts to show him has nothing to do with Islam...

  56. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    As for length of beard indicating adherence...its a form of worship...so if one believe it to be an obligation and grows it then it is rewardable...if he doesn't adhere to it then its a sinful act...you are judged on outward acts by Allah provided you do them with the correct intentions...
    I can understand this part. It's like the person who donates in secret, because he wants to help, versus the one who donates and makes a big deal out of it so that everyone knows how much he donated. There's a parable about that in the Bible I think.

    This whole I love Allah and don't need to do outward acts to show him has nothing to do with Islam...
    So there are certain tasks one must complete to remain in good graces? What would those be? (Other than the obvious)

    Again to draw a parallel with my own religion, I guess there are the Ten Commandments we have to follow, that God gave to Moses, as well as what Jesus told us: a) love God and b) love your neighbour.
    Last edited by OZGOD; 24th October 2014 at 18:33.


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  57. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    OZGOOD, what we are witnessing on this thread is the type of intolerance to difference which - ultimately - leads to kind of extremisn characterised by ISIS.

    There are Muslims who do not know how to deal with disagreements, how to deal with difference of opinion, or how to deal with divergent views when expressed, or manifested. Thus, all manner of terms are invented in order to discredit Muslims who offer alternative, independent views.

    You mentioned earlier how the West is routinely blamed for the mess in the Muslim world - or, for creating groups like ISIS, and as I said, Muslims themselves are to blame, because they simply cannot and will not allow for free-flowing debate and discussion, without resorting to name-calling. For instance: note how often Muslims are dismissed because they are not - according to their adversaries - 'scholars'. However, as there is no priestly-layman distinction in Islam, there is also no other distinction. All Muslims are permitted to engage in intellectual activity, required to engage in study and research, but there are some who want accreditation or recommendation from some 'higher' authority. I am happy to state that such hierarchies only exist within Muslim communities and societies, but not in Islam.

    So, to answer your question: there is no such word as 'Qur'anist' - it is a derogatory term employed to describe Muslims who do not believe in Hadith, compilations of the sayings/doings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Anyway, no-one has a monopoly on knowledge, truth or God's Revelations - they are open and available to all. Only those with closed, narrow minds - who lean towards extremism on account of their intolerance and hate - would try to shut down dissent or difference of opinion.

    I just noticed this. I think one of the benefits of Islam over Christianity is that there is no central authority to tell you what to believe. It's up to the individual and his or her interpretation. There is no barrier between the person and God. Obviously some peoples' interpretations may differ. Re @shaykh's comments about scholarship - this was my question regarding mullans/imams. What qualifications do they have, other than their own charisma? How does a scholar become recognised in a religion where there is nothing between the person and God, and where ultimately there is nobody to tell the individual if their interpretation is right or wrong?


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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    I can understand this part. It's like the person who donates in secret, because he wants to help, versus the one who donates and makes a big deal out of it so that everyone knows how much he donated. There's a parable about that in the Bible I think.



    So there are certain tasks one must complete to remain in good graces? What would those be? (Other than the obvious)

    Again to draw a parallel with my own religion, I guess there are the Ten Commandments we have to follow, that God gave to Moses, as well as what Jesus told us: a) love God and b) love your neighbour.

    A nice parallel on the first point...acceptable reasons for actions can be to please Allah just out of love for him, to attain heaven or out of fear to avoid hellfire...as long as the criteria is an Islamic based one then the action counts...its for this reason that 'good' people is a subjective term...good is defined on how one worships their creator...so people who do 'good' actions but don't do it for the pleasure of Allah won't have those actions recognized...

    In terms of your second point...it applies to anything and everything really...so doing acts which Allah and his Messenger command and recommend and avoiding acts that are prohibited...

    You have obligated actions (fard) , recommended actions (mandoob), permissible actions (mubah), not recommended action but sinless actions (makrooh), and prohibited actions (haram)...

  59. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    Muhammad Asad was a great Muslim scholar - he acquired knowledge of the language of the Qur'an, and the Qur'an itself, and travelled widely and extensively across the Arab/Muslim world. He is one of the composers of the Pakistan Constitution.

    I am also 'self-taught' - or rather, I am taught directly by Allah SWT, al-hamdu li-Llah. When you have acquired knowledge, attained a degree of wisdom, perhaps you will also have learned how to engage in polite, but effective, intellectual discourse.

    For the record: I quote from the Message of the Qur'an, by Muhammad Asad; The Glorious Qur'an, by Abdul Majid Daryabadi; and the Word for Word English Translation of the Qur'an, by Aftab Alam Khan.

    The Asad translation has extensive quotes from the great scholars and thinkers of the past - you will find such a quote from one of them, Razi, above.

    If you, with all due respect, concentrated upon Ayaatu-Llah instead focusing your attention upon me - as flattering as that is - you might, just might, learn something. However if you, like some others here, wish to discredit me by discrediting my source material - then be my guest. This is supposed to be a learning and sharing experience, but I suppose some Muslims have no time for either, but reserve their time to target people they feel threatened by, or wish to undermine.

    Hasbee-Allah - wa Uhibbu-LLah!
    You have opened a public thread called "what do you know about Islam".... What nonsense you have uttered in response to my comment. If your ego cannot tolerate scrutiny then I suggest public forums are not for you.

    There was no personal attack on you, just pointed out that you like the rest, you have your own select favorite scholar(or scholars even), why deride them for something that you do too.

    The most important principle in group learning via sharing experience is telling the truth and I will say no more other than to say hats off to Shaykh for being persistent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    I just noticed this. I think one of the benefits of Islam over Christianity is that there is no central authority to tell you what to believe. It's up to the individual and his or her interpretation. There is no barrier between the person and God. Obviously some peoples' interpretations may differ. Re @shaykh's comments about scholarship - this was my question regarding mullans/imams. What qualifications do they have, other than their own charisma? How does a scholar become recognised in a religion where there is nothing between the person and God, and where ultimately there is nobody to tell the individual if their interpretation is right or wrong?
    Well, it works both ways. If you got enough people calling you a scholar, so you become one.

    Usually, they would goto a place of learning where you would study under guidance of someone for a number of years.

    Its the intellectually scrutiny that is suppose to separate the wheat from the chaff. Its a bit like a peer review publication.

    As for shia-sunni, you have been given an incomplete and wishy washy picture by the honourable lady. Ofcourse there are fundamental differences, otherwise there would not be such a schism.

    It goes back to when Muhammed pbuh passed away, there was a dispute as to who should take over. The shias say, Ali, the cousin and son in law of the prophet should have taken over. Sunni version is that there was a vote and caliphs were chosen by the majority. In the end, Ali was chosen to be the 4th caliph. Then the real schism happened after the death of Ali and the leadership battle ultimately led to the massacre of Ali's surviving family (through fatima). Only one male survived alongside the females. When you see shias beating themselves with chains or cutting themselves with knives and blades in public at a particular time of year, it is the mourning for the massacre of Ali's family.

    For me, the fundamental difference is equality.

    In Sunni Islam - everyone is equal (not between genders). What we said about anyone can be a Sheikh usually applies here.

    In Shia Islam - everyone is not equal, the prophet and his family and 10 or 12 other Imams (who are direct descendants of Muhammed through the male who survived the massacre) are above everyone else. They are born pure and not capable of making mistakes. Anyone who does not believe this, is not a true believer(or believer altogether). Other than the ritual abuse characters of characters that did not support Ali and his family 1400 years ago, most sunnis have a problem with this special treatment of few individuals. Also, shia Islam is hierarchical structure like christiantiy. There is a grand Imam (Ayatollah) who has the final say. Like the Agha Khan, who is essentially an ofshoot of mainstream shias. You are not going to get an Ismaili convert to be the next Agha Khan, it will always be his son.

    Sufism - That is very hierarchical and layered. They have this belief that the world exists because of them through a network of sufis around the globe. What I never understood was whether they had to be all under the umbrella of Islam or not. Or just carry a a universal message of goodness under different guises.
    Last edited by Eagle_Eye; 25th October 2014 at 02:03.

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    Hi Jadz,

    What importance if any do sahih hadiths hold in Islam?
    How important are scholars when it comes to intepreting Islamic texts/studies?
    Do you think that a lot of people hold a false belief when it comes to the belief in the return of Jesus and the coming of Imam Mahdi and Dajjal?
    What is the best source to learn and know more about the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    Muhammad Asad was a great Muslim scholar - he acquired knowledge of the language of the Qur'an, and the Qur'an itself, and travelled widely and extensively across the Arab/Muslim world. He is one of the composers of the Pakistan Constitution.

    I am also 'self-taught' - or rather, I am taught directly by Allah SWT, al-hamdu li-Llah. When you have acquired knowledge, attained a degree of wisdom, perhaps you will also have learned how to engage in polite, but effective, intellectual discourse.

    For the record: I quote from the Message of the Qur'an, by Muhammad Asad; The Glorious Qur'an, by Abdul Majid Daryabadi; and the Word for Word English Translation of the Qur'an, by Aftab Alam Khan.

    The Asad translation has extensive quotes from the great scholars and thinkers of the past - you will find such a quote from one of them, Razi, above.

    If you, with all due respect, concentrated upon Ayaatu-Llah instead focusing your attention upon me - as flattering as that is - you might, just might, learn something. However if you, like some others here, wish to discredit me by discrediting my source material - then be my guest. This is supposed to be a learning and sharing experience, but I suppose some Muslims have no time for either, but reserve their time to target people they feel threatened by, or wish to undermine.

    Hasbee-Allah - wa Uhibbu-LLah!
    How do I reach such a rank?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    I just noticed this. I think one of the benefits of Islam over Christianity is that there is no central authority to tell you what to believe. It's up to the individual and his or her interpretation. There is no barrier between the person and God. Obviously some peoples' interpretations may differ. Re @shaykh's comments about scholarship - this was my question regarding mullans/imams. What qualifications do they have, other than their own charisma? How does a scholar become recognised in a religion where there is nothing between the person and God, and where ultimately there is nobody to tell the individual if their interpretation is right or wrong?
    OZGOD, (see the parts highlighted) for someone who is not a muslim, you're spot on, you've hit the nail on the head. Sure, there are those, including some posting in this thread, who would vehemently disagree with this viewpoint. But, hey, even if one person in a thousand has a different viewpoint to the other 999, why should he/she be told they are wrong?

    IMO, In matters of religion, in the end it all comes down to what one would call a belief. If one believes in something, then that is their belief, they don't need to justify it to anyone, other than perhaps to the God/Deity they believe in.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    It is very important that when we talk about islam we have some understanding of the actual situation. The main issue when we discuss islam is, what do we take islam to be? A set of make beliefs and some useless rituals for individuals or a program for accomplishing some goals according to some guidelines for the mankind as a community based upon quranic constitution and law for running a kingdom in the name of Allah as par his guidance.

    Anyone who takes islam as a religion has to answer the main question, why there are guidelines for a constitution and laws for organisation and regulation of human society? What has praying to God to do with running of a kingdom or a community? It is because religion is all about individuals having some so called beliefs and doing some acts of so called worship as one sees fit. It is not anyone's business what anyone else believes or does because it is a private affair between the person and his God. The main question one has to ask oneself is, does islam fit this category? My answer is very clear that islam does not fit this category therefore I do not accept islam is a religion nor should anyone who knows better.

    All people who have learned some sense and have studied the quran for knowing islam believe that islam is not only about God and man but about God and man as well as about humanity as a whole. In other words islam is way of life that leads mankind to an end that is set by Allah for mankind. It is the main reason why islam is called deenillah or sabeelillah or ADDEEN ie the way of life advised for mankind by Allah. Why Allah advised this way of life for mankind? I have explained this in this thread already so no point in repeating the same thing.

    Since in my understanding of the quran islam is not a religion therefore any argument over religion of islam is a nonsense and shows a person is totally confused about islam be one a muslim or a nonmuslims. The main thing is that anyone who thinks islam is a religion must first prove islam is a religion before one accepts it or rejects it or raises any objection against it. In other words there is no sense in talking about islam as a religion because it is not a religion so why waste time and energy on something that is not really there. I therefore oppose any person who claims islam is a religion regardless one claims to be a muslim or happens to be a nonmuslim. I want such a person to prove from the quran that his claim is right about islam. It is because religion cannot be but a private matter for an individual and his God whereas the quran is very clear that islam is not a private affair of an individual and his God. This is why in my view islam is a deen. Since it is a deen so all need to understand it as such regardless they claim to be muslims or happen to be nonmuslims. So all questions about deen of islam are to be asked and answered in that context.

    Since islam is a deen sent by Allah therefore it is a program from Allah for mankind for accomplishing some goals according to his provided guidelines. Since it is a program for mankind therefore the message of the quran must be taken to all people in the world so that they have a look at it and think it over and if they like what they are told they come together to form a community network on basis of a constitution and its laws as par guidelines provided in the quran. This is the context in which people need to understand islamic shariah or law or jurisprudence. It is in this context one must come to know the procedure for writing a constitution or forming a law. This is why individuals need to know the quran and have their opinions and arguments to back them up but it is the ummah that is to decide together what is to be the correct interpretation of the book and arrive at a consensus. Unless it is ummah that accepts a constitution or a laws as a whole, it cannot be called an islamic law or shariah. From this procedure it should be very clear why fatwas by ignorant, illiterate and uneducated individuals mean nothing at all in proper context of deen of islam in light of the quran. One must remember that a constitution or any laws must be accepted by all in the ummah freely after at least a simple majority agrees upon them. None is supposed to accept any constitution or law that goes against the stated goals and guidelines of the quran. Before people sit down to argue over what the constitution or law should be they must have good ideas what are goals they want to achieve as an ummah and what are the guidelines so that no clause is put in the constitution that is in conflict with the aims and the objectives of the constitution. In other words a constitution needs to be written with declared objectives right at the top of the document. Since aims and objectives are the starting point of written constitution so all clauses that follow must be in line or consistent with these objectives. Once a constitution is structured with all its clauses as a complete document with all the needed laws regarding institutions, office bearers and individuals and groups in the ummah then ummah as a whole must examine it with care and see if any mistake has been made in constructing this document before it is ratified and implemented by the ummah. If anything important is left out or something has been added which is not right then changes can be made in the constitution or law even after ratification but each time any change has been made must be put before ummah and accepted by it otherwise the document will become invalid as a constitution or law. I have already explained what are the aims and objectives or goals set for ummah to accomplish and what are guidelines here and there so no point in repeating all this in here.

    The other important point to remember is that the quran is about three states of existence of muslims ie as individuals in any place in the world, as a community anywhere in the world and as a community within a kingdom of their own. Each of these three states of existence have their own requirements. Individuals are only required what they can do as individuals and community is only required what community can do as a community and a community in a kingdom of its own is required what it can do as community in a kingdom of its own. In short there are very limited requirement for individuals but requirement increase when people become a community and they increase even more when the community has its own kingdom. It is because as people who accept deen of islam increase in their numbers their power increases and therefore their responsibilities also increase towards each other and towards rest of mankind. For example, an individual is mainly responsible for learning and educating oneself about all one can learn in one's life time as well as about learning the quran and only when one has learned deen of islam properly oneself one's responsibility increases for teaching it to others the best one can. It is binding upon more than one muslims to live together as a family fully supporting each other in every way and keep working to bring more and more people into fold of deen of islam. Once a few people come together they must organise and regulate themselves according the quranic guidelines. They must form a constitution to help them organise themselves and work out laws to help them regulate themselves in light of quranic guidelines as well as in light of ground realities that face them as par their situations and circumstances.

    From all this explanation it should be clear to people what deen of islam really is and what being a muslim means.

    When a muslim lives among the rest of humanity, one sees human world living in a terrible state of affairs because each person is tearing apart any other like an animal to get what one wants of the others. All this is result of ignorance, illiteracy and lack of proper education ie people are hardly any better than rest of animals. Out of this human population some one rises above others to try and give people some better direction so that life could become somewhat better than what is already there. Since this person is part of rest of human race and is born into an already existing human population so he faces a lot of difficulties because he is challenging things as they are in order to change them the way one sees fit. This being the situation all those who benefit from things as they are, are going to become upset with him and are going to use all means at their disposal to keep things as they are. It is now up to people to decide what they support and what they oppose. This divides people into a few different camps. Ones that clearly support the change and others who clearly oppose the change and yet others who are undecided and some who play from both sides of the fence etc etc.

    Since divisions are already there in human populations due to rivalries and animosities so hatred and wars are also there therefore there is little that changes just for sake of new movement. In other words any person who rises up in an already fighting population cannot cause any more damage to whatever is already there but can try and see if one can get rid of all this harm and destruction among people. This was the situation with messengers of Allah who tried to guide mankind out of their harmful and destructive mindsets, attitudes and behaviours based on harmful and destructive ambitions and desires. When Adam was sent as a messenger by Allah people were already killing each other and chiefs were looking for a way out of this harm and destruction. Same was happening when the final messenger of Allah came to save people from their own harm and destruction which they were already inflicting upon each other ie there were already wars on going all around arabia eg romans and persians etc were already busy fighting each other and even tribal were at each other throat in arabia itself.

    The quran tells us facts about human history but mullahs have masked the information given in the quran with their nonsense due to their ignorance and foolishness because they did no research and exploration on what the quran was talking about to find out but instead made up stories while sitting on their behinds. They have been telling people Adam was first man who was created by Allah directly without involving natural process of cause and effect. The quran on the other hand explains things in sense of designed development of things from the starting point onwards like a flower gradually starts opening up bit by bit till it has opened up fully. In other words Allah talks about gradual unfolding of his plan with time.

    The very first proper human community was gathered by Adam with help of his supporters who then brought about a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah. He was opposed by a chief named in the quran as Iblees. Iblees and his supporters did manage to bring down the kingdom Adam and his supporters brought about but they managed to rebuilt it. Attention should be paid to the fact that the quran talks about various stages of development of the universe and humanity itself. For example the quran talks about tree of life which we can called tree of evolution today. It talks about various stages of development of a human being even before the birth of a human being as well as stages of development of a human being after his birth till death. A clear proof that quran is talking about natural cause and effect process in natural world. Things have been created to observe already existing things and learn from them and do what they think is right for them but humans have been created with maximum freedom for self programming as compared to all other living things. All this has been explained by me on this forum in my posts so I will not go into details.

    It should therefore be clear that deen of islam is not the problem but solution for problems that human beings have created for themselves through senseless interaction between themselves and therefore have ruined their environment. However by learning things and educating themselves about the real world realities and the revelation of Allah they can bring about the world the quran promises. The quran is a real plan for building a proper human community and therefore a kingdom in which all people have a blissful, dignified and secure existence with help and full support of each other. If that is what we want. If not then people are free to keep doing to each other as they are.

    Since security of people depends upon each other according to the quran and unless they agree to live peacefully for progress and prosperity of each other they cannot have any kind of security so all questions relating all kinds of security what if this and what if that become meaningless in context of the quran and deen of islam.

    Now ask the questions about CHAADUR, BURQA or VEIL etc eg does Allah require people to wear certain kind of dress? Before asking such questions one must make oneself aware of the fact that deen of islam has aims and objectives for mankind to accomplish so if something is needed for fulfilling its objectives then it is needed otherwise it is not needed because ways and means in themselves are not the objectives and it is the purpose that decide what is necessary and what is not.

    Now coming to question of dress code, it depends upon what is actual security available to people in a human population of which one is a part. When there is war like situation in a population and each person is trying to dominate others by undermining them by all means at his disposal then all are put under siege by each other because all are worried what is going to happen to them the next minute and who is going to do them something really bad so all need to take maximum security measure to try as best as they can to stay safe from each other. In such a society no one will be happy to see anyone else because all spell danger for each other. However if a population has decided to live as a caring sharing family making sure safety and security of each other then all are relaxed and glad to see each other. Now when you feel threatened then you take measure that are appropriate and when you are feeling safe and secure then you relax your security measures as well. It is because in one situation you try your best to hide yourself from others as well as anything else you treasure because otherwise you are sure to lose it. In the other situation you are relaxed so there is no need for running for cover. It is because in one situation everyone is there to take away whatever you have because they do not have that or just because they want to have something extra because they may need it if not today then tomorrow which may never come but that is the way people in such a society think about things. In the other society everyone has whatever others have so no one needs anything of anyone else so no one need to be scared of anyone else. Adam was told to bring about a human society wherein all could eat of anything (ie take part in doing anything) accept for things which could damage or destroy the proper human community.

    From my posts it should be clear how I look at deen of islam and why I do that and why I think mullahs have ruined this beautiful message of Allah by covering it up with loads of their nonsense. If one is really interested in learning deen of Allah then it is therefore necessary that people study the language of the quran and be a thinking people because the quran repeatedly invites attention of those who are thinkers to see what the actual message of the quran is and what it has on offer for mankind.

    When I talk against mullahs, rulers and money lenders I do not mean the scholarly works people produced are totally useless because they have a lot of very useful things in them which help us move forward if we could learn how to use those works. Dictionaries are very useful works for example, be they written by atheists, hindus, parsees, jews, christiasns, muslims or any other people. The idea that only muslim mullahs know islam properly is a false idea. Book of Allah is for all human beings who are looking for guidance but nothing is easy in life so people do need to work at learning things including the message of this book. This does not mean works of other people are not at all helpful in knowing about the message of the quran. None of us is born fully educated and we all learn from each other so exchanging ideas helps to know things better and to discover newer and better ideas.
    Last edited by Mughal; 25th October 2014 at 09:59.

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    Mughal sb owning the thread again. I suggest everyone read his posts. Answers most of the questions posed here.

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    Is enslavement of non-muslims permitted by Sharia as claimed by ISIS? Honest answer please.

    Sent from my C6802 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torpedo View Post
    Hi Jadz,

    What importance if any do sahih hadiths hold in Islam?
    How important are scholars when it comes to intepreting Islamic texts/studies?
    Do you think that a lot of people hold a false belief when it comes to the belief in the return of Jesus and the coming of Imam Mahdi and Dajjal?
    What is the best source to learn and know more about the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) ?

    'Alaykum As Salaam.

    1) Hadith - Sunni and Shia versions - were compiled after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - in other words, he did not ask, nor invite Imam Bukhari, or anyone else, to collect his apparent sayings and actions. Allah SWT states that His Islam was perfected and completed, which means it was in that state before the Prophet died.

    There is a difference between the hadith which recounts historical events, and hadith which attribute words and actions to the Prophet. The vast majority of Muslims believe in, and follow, Hadith - whether Sunni or Shia - and a sizeable number which do not. That being the case, there are divergent opinions regarding this issue, and unfortunately, these differences have led to division and disunity. In the current climate, takfiris - of whatever persuasion - will use differences to declare someone a 'kaafir'. However, since it is Allah SET who inspires and gives faith - iman - these attempts at isolating and targeting Muslims are quite futile.

    2) A scholar is only required to interpret the Qur'an - or Hadith, or the classical works of the Early Muslims - if the language is a barrier. Bear in mind that there is no priest/layman distinction in Islam, thus, there is no scholar/layman distinction either - all have equal access to Allah SWT, if they so desire. Now, one of the reasons shirk is forbidden in Islam is because it creates/forms a material, physical barrier between Allah SWT and His servants. This is why Muslims are called upon not to accept, blindly and without thought, any proposition, idea or concept, person - no matter how exalted or elevated the name - or group. So: scholars are just teachers, and the student must learn from, but not follow, them.

    An important matter must be mentioned here: when Muslims understood the language of the Qur'an they were creative, innovative and inventive, when this practise ceased, they stopped thinking for themselves, and became heavily reliant and dependant upon scholars. This is one reason why I urge all Muslims to revive the practise of learning Qur'anic Arabic - so that they may engage with Allah SWT directly, and not through a battery of interpretations, explanations and translations. I have been studying Qur'anic Arabic for some years now, this is not rocket science, this is the language of Allah SWT.

    3) I do not accuse Muslims of holding to wrong or false beliefs - I only ask believers to study their religion, research the Qur'an, learn its language, equip themselves with knowledge, and question EVERYTHING. Inherited belief is not faith, it is blind imitation. Islam requires people to reflect, engage in contemplation, and ponder upon the Verses of Allah SWT. Having said that, I constitute minority opinion - but, even if the majority believe in something, or, every single person on the planet, I will not believe in it, until Allah SWT inspires me to.

    4) The best source for all knowledge pertaining to Islam is the Qur'an: in it, the lives of the Prophets (pbut) are detailed, and they are the ones Muslims are supposed to adopt as role models.

    I hope this is helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speed_thrills View Post
    Is enslavement of non-muslims permitted by Sharia as claimed by ISIS? Honest answer please.

    Sent from my C6802 using Tapatalk


    Honest answer Speed: no, enslavement of non-Muslims is not permitted. ISIS are not a reliable source for Islam, as many recognize.

    During (legitimate) warfare, soldiers are often taken captive, but they are supposed to be treated properly, humanely, and restored to their peoples upon cessation of hostilities.

    Of course, people can be employed by Muslims - as maids, drivers or cleaners, or in other capacities - but they receive payment for their work, and are supposed to be treated respectfully and honourably.

    During Revelation - and the times preceding that - there was a flourishing slave trade. Muslims were required, wherever possible, to free slaves, and one of the ways of atonement for sins was the freeing of slaves.

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    Shaykh your posts have been quite insightful

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    Quote Originally Posted by just saying View Post
    Shaykh your posts have been quite insightful
    You post the same sort of stuff yourself so I doubt there's much new there for you.

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    On the topic of hadith...i actually agree that its collation is flawed but then i also see the collation of the Quran as flawed...the point is however that Sunni and Shia Muslims view the Sunnah as being on the same level as the Quran...so the discussion isn't about whether belief in hadith is correct...rather it is what do Sunnis and Shias believe...what does it mean to be Sunni or Shia?...

    The collation of hadith is a science...this is indeed true...but the point is Sunni Muslims accept this science as a form of belief and this is the orthodox perspective...Sunni Muslims also take ijma sahaba as part of the Sunnah...this is consensus of the companions...

    Shia's are completely different...collation of hadith by Sunnis is dependent on a science looking at chain of narration...so narrators trustworthiness is examined (a subjective task) and technical ability to have seen or heard the Prophet...the Shia view trustworthiness completely differently...they despise the majority of the Prophets companions and view members of the Prophets family as being trustworthy...Ahlul Bayt is their criterion...of course many views overlap between the both of them but they have completely different ways...its suggested that Shia reject 3/4 of hadith that Sunni Muslims view as being authentic...this is why though out history Islamic scholarship on both sides has stated that the other is a disbeliever...

    Now Jadz took the position of stating that Bukhari is flawed etc and its wrong to leave Islam in the hands of people...but she can't have it both ways...the Quran was complete when the Prophet died...this is correct...but Quran is the vocal version of the Quran...there was NO complete written form when the Prophet died...its logical really...revelations were written on parchments, trees, everywhere...but there was no complete text because the Prophet was alive and new revelations were constantly being revealed...of course when the prophet died this brought about the end of revelation...and therefore came the decision to form a complete canonized version of the Quran...

    Abu Bakr when he initially took power ruled according to the oral tradition, revelation and the sayings and actions of the Prophet the latter which would later become hadith...Ali actually codified the Quran 6 months after the Prophet died but it was rejected not due to inaccuracy but because there was no need for a written form...however after a conflict which led to the deaths of 700 Muslims Abu Bakr decided to compile and codify the Quran...this was a 'human' endeavor and the idea of the Quran in a written form (Mush'af) was actually the idea of sahaba...it was a human endeavor...the same humans that also helped provide hadith...Zayd ibn Thabit was entrusted the role of doing that...it took Zayd a year to decide upon a finalized codified version of the Quran...

    Suratul-Hijr, ayah 9 (15:9) of the Qur’an, Allah says:
    ”We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (Qur’an) and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).”

    This is what belief in current day Islam hinges on...the idea that Allah promises that the version of the Quran we have is incorruptible therefore there is no chance that the human beings who collated the Quran can have done it incorrectly...that said there wasnt always consensus on what was in the new codified Quran...

    Umar ibn Khattab the 2nd Caliph continued with the same codified version as Abu Bakr...

    Uthman the 3rd Caliph however requested a change...as the empire was growing there were different codified versions around and Uthman wanted to ensure that there was one singular codified version...Uthmans Quran wasn't that different in meaning or the verses but the order was changed...once a version was agreed upon all other versions were burned and that is the version we all have today...to make it clear with any oral tradition there are possibilities of issues regarding pronunciation etc which can change the wording...Muhammad never wrote anything...it was people who wrote things...and it was these same people who disagreed when it came to forming a codified version...and of course with there being no codified version in the initial stages there were all sorts of differing memorizations...

    So there were a number of different versions of the Prophets message around...there were disagreements regarding the Uthmani version...there were scribes such as Abdullah ibn Mas’ud who differed and their versions of the Quran were also burned...Ubay ibn Ka’b another expert also had a different version in terms of spelling and wording...

    This idea that the Prophet left behind a written book is a falsehood...he never wrote anything...he left behind an oral tradition which non Prophets wrote down...the Quran was indeed complete but the Mush'uf was compiled and debated on after his death...Zayds original codified version was used as a base model and the Uthmani version was different...it was compiled over 12 years after the Prophets death...and again like the hadith was a scientific endeavor...verses were accepted and rejected based on a man made criteria...it was a 'human' decision to decide on the correct version...

    In short if one want to poke holes then its quite easy to do...I just find it odd how people can find the science of hadith difficult to accept yet have full trust in the composition in the Quran...

    For the likes of OzGod and other non-Muslims...there are varying things that people believe...but in short Sunni Muslims accept the Quran and Sahih hadith as belief...rejection of a sahih hadith is deemed a form of disbelief for THEM...

    Jadz is free to believe what she likes...but her beliefs are not from the Sunni or Shia schools of thought...so if one believes the Quranist option is the best option then by all means take Jadz's opinions...if you are Sunni or want to know what Sunnis believe then getting opinions from hadith rejectors is the wrong way to go...

    When I write on here...I don't provide my own opinions as I am not a believer...but will provide Sunni opinions and will generally express when there is a difference of opinion between scholars...

  72. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    'Alaykum As Salaam.

    1) Hadith - Sunni and Shia versions - were compiled after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - in other words, he did not ask, nor invite Imam Bukhari, or anyone else, to collect his apparent sayings and actions. Allah SWT states that His Islam was perfected and completed, which means it was in that state before the Prophet died.
    Good point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mughal View Post
    It is very important that when we talk about islam we have some understanding of the actual situation. The main issue when we discuss islam is, what do we take islam to be? A set of make beliefs and some useless rituals for individuals or a program for accomplishing some goals according to some guidelines for the mankind as a community based upon quranic constitution and law for running a kingdom in the name of Allah as par his guidance.

    Anyone who takes islam as a religion has to answer the main question, why there are guidelines for a constitution and laws for organisation and regulation of human society? What has praying to God to do with running of a kingdom or a community? It is because religion is all about individuals having some so called beliefs and doing some acts of so called worship as one sees fit. It is not anyone's business what anyone else believes or does because it is a private affair between the person and his God. ........
    Exactly.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 25th October 2014 at 23:20.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  73. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadz View Post
    'Alaykum As Salaam.

    1) Hadith - Sunni and Shia versions - were compiled after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - in other words, he did not ask, nor invite Imam Bukhari, or anyone else, to collect his apparent sayings and actions. Allah SWT states that His Islam was perfected and completed, which means it was in that state before the Prophet died.
    I was avoiding thread anything related to Islam ever since i was facing slander by Imranistan. Choosing not to contribute knowledge that concerns the matter of the truth cannot be ignored. Anyhow, Waleikum Salaam Sister, Welcome Back.

    Both Holy Qur'an and extension to Holy Qur'an were compiled after the death of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Regarding the knowledge of lifestyle, end of times, and everything that is covered cannot be found in Holy Qur'an was compiled into Hadith later. Why Holy Qur'an was compiled into readable form must be carefully pondered after reading this.

    Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 6.201 Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit Al Ansari

    Hadrat Zaid (r.a.) who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation said: ‘Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, "Umar has come to me and said, 'The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it (in a manuscript). And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an.'" Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Prophet (saws) has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added : ) 'Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. Abu Bakr said (to me), "You (Zaid) are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Prophet (saws). Therefore, look for the Quran and collect it (in one manuscript)." By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Quran. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet (saws) has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing." So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart).
    The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.


    After the death of Prophet Mohamed (saws) the need arose to document the Glorious Quran in a Book form, a process which was started during the reign of Hadrat Abu Bakr (r.a.) and completed during the reign of Hadrat Uthmaan (r.a.).




    There is a difference between the hadith which recounts historical events, and hadith which attribute words and actions to the Prophet. The vast majority of Muslims believe in, and follow, Hadith - whether Sunni or Shia - and a sizeable number which do not. That being the case, there are divergent opinions regarding this issue, and unfortunately, these differences have led to division and disunity. In the current climate, takfiris - of whatever persuasion - will use differences to declare someone a 'kaafir'. However, since it is Allah SET who inspires and gives faith - iman - these attempts at isolating and targeting Muslims are quite futile.
    It is good thing Hadiths were compiled even though there are many sources of Hadiths now. We are talking about 1400 years, years after years, decades after decades. Allah did promise to safeguard Holy Qur'an only but that doesn't change the fact that old source of Hadith is still there after 1400 years; however, to ascertain whether old source is authentic or not; verified by chain of narrations trace back to old source is up to us. Thank to Sahih Hadith and Bukhari, we now have few hadiths; Authentic and Legit.

    2) A scholar is only required to interpret the Qur'an - or Hadith, or the classical works of the Early Muslims - if the language is a barrier. Bear in mind that there is no priest/layman distinction in Islam, thus, there is no scholar/layman distinction either - all have equal access to Allah SWT, if they so desire. Now, one of the reasons shirk is forbidden in Islam is because it creates/forms a material, physical barrier between Allah SWT and His servants. This is why Muslims are called upon not to accept, blindly and without thought, any proposition, idea or concept, person - no matter how exalted or elevated the name - or group. So: scholars are just teachers, and the student must learn from, but not follow, them.
    After 1400 years later, today's Arabic is not same as Arabic in the era of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). The language of Arabic has changed while the original written of Arabic in Holy Qur'an still remain. Quite frankly, it won't be easy for Arabic speaking people to understand Holy Qur'an in original form; very classical Arabic that will take years of understanding the language of 1400 years ago. In fact, we still have many Scholars differ in concerning the matter of understanding from the SAME SOURCE.

    Hence too many confusion with translations of Holy Qur'an.

    An important matter must be mentioned here: when Muslims understood the language of the Qur'an they were creative, innovative and inventive, when this practise ceased, they stopped thinking for themselves, and became heavily reliant and dependant upon scholars. This is one reason why I urge all Muslims to revive the practise of learning Qur'anic Arabic - so that they may engage with Allah SWT directly, and not through a battery of interpretations, explanations and translations. I have been studying Qur'anic Arabic for some years now, this is not rocket science, this is the language of Allah SWT.
    I can understand your point, but you are learning from someone, qualified in Holy Qur'an, keeping in mind that whether we are learning purely unadulatered Holy Qur'an in unadulatered language is quite unclear given the language of modern Arabic is far different from the Holy Quran's language - unveiled in classic language of Arabic; goes back to 1400 years.


    3) I do not accuse Muslims of holding to wrong or false beliefs - I only ask believers to study their religion, research the Qur'an, learn its language, equip themselves with knowledge, and question EVERYTHING. Inherited belief is not faith, it is blind imitation. Islam requires people to reflect, engage in contemplation, and ponder upon the Verses of Allah SWT. Having said that, I constitute minority opinion - but, even if the majority believe in something, or, every single person on the planet, I will not believe in it, until Allah SWT inspires me to.
    True, but the knowledge of Islam doesn't end strictly with Holy Qur'an. Islam as we know may cease to exist if we choose to ignore extension of Holy Qur'an even though Holy Qur'an is perfected and complete. In last sermon of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), he made his points very clear that ANYONE WHO FOLLOW HOLY QUR'AN AND MY SUNNAH WILL BE SAFE FROM HELL-FIRE.

    The information of how to pray, do Hajj, lifestyle, information of end of times is covered pretty much in Hadiths, in fact testified by Holy Qur'an regarding the return of Prophet Isa (PBUH).

    4) The best source for all knowledge pertaining to Islam is the Qur'an: in it, the lives of the Prophets (pbut) are detailed, and they are the ones Muslims are supposed to adopt as role models.

    I hope this is helpful.
    True. What about his Sunnah that is not covered in Holy Qur'an, but only in Hadiths?
    Last edited by Fallen King; 26th October 2014 at 00:06.

  74. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by niishaa View Post
    1) Does Koran Mention Jesus Christ? IF so what is written about him?
    2)I have heard many times that Old Testament of bible and even Torah has similarities with Koran, Is it true? If it is true, then can we assume that these religions talk about the same GOD.
    3)Regarding Hijab/Burkha is it mandatory( i know there have been quite a few discussions on this) but i want to know what is written in the book exactly.
    4) Why is Friday important day to Muslims what is it's significance?

    Thanks in advance Jadz.
    The rest of questions has been answered beautifully by Sister Jadz. Regarding the last question, Friday is very important day as that is the day trace to many important events in the history of Islam.

    “The best day the sun rises over is Friday; on it Allaah created Aadam. On it, he was made to enter paradise, on it he was expelled from it, and the Last Hour will take place on no other day than Friday.”[Ahmad and At-At-Tirmithi]

    It is narrated by Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:

    It was Friday from which Allah diverted those who were before us. For the Jews (the day set aside for prayer) was Sabt (Saturday), and for the Christians it was Sunday. And Allah turned towards us and guided us to Friday (as the day of prayer) for us. In fact, He (Allah) made Friday, Saturday and Sunday (as days of prayer). In this order would they (Jews and Christians) come after us on the Day of Resurrection. We are the last of (the Ummahs) among the people in this world and the first among the created to be judged on the Day of Resurrection. In one narration it is: ', to be judged among them".

    THE BENEFIT OF FRIDAY


    "O you who have believed, when [the adhan] is called for the prayer on the day of Jumu'ah [Friday], then proceed to the remembrance of Allah and leave trade. That is better for you, if you only knew." [Al-Quran 62:9]

    “Any Muslim who dies during the day or night of Friday will be protected by Allaah from the trial of the grave.” [At-Tirmithi and Ahmad].

    “Any Muslim who dies during the day or night of Friday will be protected by Allaah from the trial of the grave.” [At-Tirmithi and Ahmad].

    I hope that helps.

  75. #155
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    The Main merits of holy day of Friday are the first six;

    1. Allah created Adam alayhis salaam on Friday and he was granted entry into jannah on Friday.

    2. Adam alayhis salaam was sent to earth on this day as his vicegerent.

    3. Adam alayhis salaam died on a Friday.

    4. There is a blessed hour on Friday during which a person is granted anything lawful and good by Allah that he prays for.

    5. The blessed hour on Friday is such that Duas are answered and accepted,(from my research its an hour in 'Asr to Maghrib)

    6. The Day of Qiyamah-Resurrection will be on a Friday. It is on this day that the Trumpet will be blown on Friday; There is neither any angels nearest to Allah nor any heaven nor the earth nor the wind and a sea but all of them fear the Day of Jummah,that is why everything in the heavens and the earth including God's most favourite angels and mountains, rivers etc. stand in awe of Friday.

    Its called jumm'ah because sayyiduna Adam alayhis salaam was put togehter on this day, meaning its the day he was born-This Milad. So whoever performs the Jumm'ah salah is actually celebrating Eid Meelid un nabi of sayyiduna Adam alayhis salaam. And "O Muslims! Allah Ta'ala has made this day (Friday) a day of 'Eid'. So have a bath on this day, whoever has perfume should apply it, and use the miswaak." (Ibn Majah).

    The point now to those who object to Eid Milad-un-nabi of the Sayyid of the Children of Adam, Sayyiduna Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, is simple either stop praying Jumm'ah which is Kufr or either be quiet with your Munafiq-hypocritical behaviour and please learn your Deen correctly or celebrate the Milad un-nabi of Sayyiduna Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam which is the day he was born and is the greatest of all days.

    7. Friday is Sayyid-The Master of the week, the best of days, like Ramadhan is Sayyid of the Month and Surah Baraqah is the Sayyid of the Quran.

    8. In certain aspects the rank of the night of jumu'ah is even higher than Laylatul Qadr.

    10 .One of the reasons for this is that it was on this night that Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam appeared in the womb of his mother.

    600,000 souls are freed from the fire of Hell each Hour, throughout the day and night of every Friday, even though all of them have deserved condemnation to the fire.

    The birds and insects meet with one another on Friday and say "peace be upon you , may it be a good day".

    11. Rasulullah's sallallahu alayhi wa sallam appearance in this world was a cause of so much good and blessings both in this world and in the hereafter that they cannot be enumerated.

    12. There is such an hour on Friday that if any Muslim makes dua in it, his dua will definitely be accepted." (Bukhari, Muslim)

    13. Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said: Of all the days, Friday is the most virtuous. It is on this day that the trumpet will be blown. Send abundant durood upon me on Fridays because they are presented to me on that day."

    14. The word "shaahid" refers to Friday. There is no day more virtuous than Friday. There is such an hour in this day that no Muslim will make dua in it except that his dua will be accepted. And he does not seek protection from anything except that Allah Ta'ala will grant him protection." (Tirmidhi)

    15. The word "shaahid" appears in Surah Burooj. Allah Ta'ala has taken an oath of that day. He says in the Quran: "By the sky in which there are constellations. By the promised day (of judgement). By the day that witnesses (Friday), and the day that is witnessed (day of Arafah)."

    16. "Friday is the "mother" of all days and the most virtuous in the sight of Allah Ta'ala. In the sight of Allah Ta'ala it has more greatness than Eid ul-Fitr and Eid ul-Ad'haa." (Ibn Majah)

    17. The Muslim who passes away on the night or during the day of Friday, Allah Ta'ala saves him from the punishment of the grave." (Tirmidhi)

    Surah al Mulk is the protector from the torment of the grave, so if you dont die on friday and wont know when we are going to die, its best to read every and memorise this surah also. There is a Surah which will plead for its reciter till it causes him to enter paradise (Tabarakallahi Biyadihil Mulk).

    18."The best day on which the sun has risen is Friday. On that day Adam was created, he was admitted to Jannah, and he was expelled therefrom.''[Muslim].

    19. "If anyone performs Wudu' properly, then comes to the Friday prayer, listens to the Khutbah (religious talk) attentively and keeps silent, his (minor) sins between that Friday and the following Friday will be forgiven, with the addition of three more days; but he who touches pebbles has caused an interruption.''

    20. "Either some people (i.e., hypocrites) stop neglecting the Friday prayers, or Allah will seal their hearts and they will be among the heedless.''

    21. Taking a bath (before coming to Friday prayers) is obligatory on every adult.

    22. "It suffices to perform Wudu' properly for the Friday prayer; but it is better to take a bath.''

    23. Every afternoon, the heat of jahannam is increased. However, through the blessings of jumu'ah, this will not be done on Fridays. (Ihyaa ul-Uloom)

    24. The following verse : "This day, I have completed your Deen for you." A Jew was sitting near him. On hearing this verse being recited he remarked : "If this verse was revealed to us, we would have celebrated that day as a day of eid." Ibne Abbas radiallahu anhu replied : "This verse was revealed on two eids, i.e. on the day of jumu'ah and the day of arafah." In other words, what is the need for us to make that day into a day of eid when it was already a day of two eids?

    25. "O Muslims! Allah Ta'ala has made this day(Friday) a day of 'Eid'. So have a bath on this day, whoever has perfume should apply it, and use the miswaak." (Ibn Majah)

    26. "He who takes a bath on Friday, like the bath for ceremonial purity, and then goes (to the mosque), he is like one who offers a camel as a sacrifice to seek the Pleasure of Allah; and he who comes at the second hour is like one who offers a cow to win the Pleasure of Allah; and he who comes at the third hour is like one who offers a ram with horns (in sacrifice); and he who comes at the fourth hour is like one who offers a hen; and he who comes at the fifth hour is like one who offers an egg. And when the Imam ascends the pulpit, the angels (who write the names of those who come to the mosque before the coming of the Imam) close (their record) in order to listen to the Khutbah.''

    http://www.deenislam.co.uk/friday.htm

  76. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    On the topic of hadith...i actually agree that its collation is flawed but then i also see the collation of the Quran as flawed...the point is however that Sunni and Shia Muslims view the Sunnah as being on the same level as the Quran...
    Stopped reading there.

  77. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Stopped reading there.
    That is your prerogative...

    But there are two simple points in play...

    Part of what makes Sunni's Sunni and Shia's Shia is their belief in hadith...

    Thus someone stating hadith is a flawed science is something i agree with...but to suggest this is an Islamic position is a falsehood...thats the point...

  78. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Stopped reading there.
    But he doesn't hate Islam, just likes to take spend all his time on PP ridiculing it. Not to mention the axs pulls.

  79. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastandfurious View Post
    But he doesn't hate Islam, just likes to take spend all his time on PP ridiculing it. Not to mention the axs pulls.
    I haven't been disingenuous nor have i been subtle...i don't like Islam and have expressed as much quite clearly...but it seems to be an odd thing to attack me on...

    Part of the attacks against me seem to be related to me not being Muslim yet commenting on Islam...it's interesting cos if I was commenting about Christianity as a non Christian then no-one would have an issue with me...yet the ad hominem seems to appear when i speak about Islam and normally the attacks have no basis...

    For instance I provided the views of Sunni scholars on apostasy...no misrepresentations unless Abu Hanifa and Ibn Kathir are misrepresentations of Sunni Islam...

    Feel free to refute ANYTHING i have written...

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    yes, I would also like someone to refute shaykh's posts. Because when they are left unchallenged it gives the impression that they are the truth.

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