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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    I guess it's the same with Christians - my cousin worked in Riyadh for a while and he said that they had to attend mass in someone's house. It's a shame. What about Sunni in Iran? How are they treated?

    Incidentally, what countries are majority Shia, other than Iran?
    @ OZGOD ; @hussain.r97 is talking a load of rubbish when he says Shia muslims are not allowed to go to Mecca. Tens of thousands of Iranians go to Hajj every year. Here is an article from Press TV, which is based in Tehran, Iran re this years Hajj

    Iranian kitchens serve Hajj pilgrims in Saudi Arabia

    Every year thousands of Iranian pilgrims travel to Saudi Arabia for the annual Muslim pilgrimage of Hajj. This year the number is at around 64-thousand. Providing the necessary accommodation, medical services and food for such a high number of pilgrims is a monumental undertaking. Iran’s hajj mission has established four central kitchens in the holy cities of Medina and Mecca to provide food for the pilgrims.

    http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/0...-saudi-arabia/
    If you want a more detailed description, with video's, visit this site:
    http://www.mecca.net/muslim-videos/h...form-hajj.html


    It's true that, due to politics as well as sheer logistics the numbers are limited. But the numbers are limited from most other Muslim countries, including Pakistan.

    Performing Hajj is not simply limited to visiting Mecca and the Grand Mosque, but involves travelling and moving around various sites, spread over many square miles, located around 20 Km outside Mecca.

    During Hajj, pilgrims join processions of hundreds of thousands of people, who simultaneously converge on Mecca for the week of the Hajj, and perform a series of rituals: each person walks counter-clockwise seven times around the Ka'aba, the cube-shaped building and the direction of prayer for the Muslims, runs back and forth between the hills of Al-Safa and Al-Marwah, drinks from the Zamzam Well, goes to the plains of Mount Arafat to stand in vigil, spends a night in the plain of Muzdalifa, and performs symbolic stoning of the devil by throwing stones at three pillars. The pilgrims then shave their heads, perform a ritual of animal sacrifice, and celebrate the three day global festival of Eid al-Adha

    wiki
    In 2014, There were over 2 Million pilgrims who performed Hajj, of which around 1.4 Million were foreign pilgrims. You can imagine the logistics involved in accomodating, transport and catering for that many people moving between the various sites at the same time.. So there has to be limits on the number of foreign visa's issued.

    With that number of people involved, of course there are bound to be incidents, and of course there are those who will highlight certain incidents to suit their own particular political or other agenda.

    (Some years ago I worked in the Middle East, including Jeddah, Riyadh and Taif, which is the summer capital of Saudi Arabia, and is located in the mountains not far from Mecca. To get to Jeddah from Taif, one has to go past, through, or circle around Mecca.
    I was thus fortunate enough to visit Mecca on numerous occasions, as well as performing Hajj
    )

    p.s. The Iranian passenger plane that was shot down by the US Navy was full of Iranian pilgrims on their way to Mecca.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 3rd November 2014 at 14:53.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    @ OZGOD ;
    hussain.r97 is talking a load of rubbish when he says Shia muslims are not allowed to go to Mecca. Tens of thousands of Iranians go to Hajj every year. Here is an article from Press TV, which is based in Tehran, Iran re this years Hajj



    It's true that, due to politics as well as sheer logistics the numbers are limited. But the numbers are limited from most other Muslim countries, including Pakistan.

    Performing Hajj is not simply limited to visiting Mecca and the Grand Mosque, but involves travelling and moving around various sites, spread over many square miles, located around 20 Km outside Mecca.



    In 2014, There were over 2 Million pilgrims who performed Hajj, of which around 1.4 Million were foreign pilgrims. You can imagine the logistics involved in accomodating, transport and catering for that many people moving between the various sites at the same time.. So there has to be limits on the number of foreign visa's issued.

    With that number of people involved, of course there are bound to be incidents, and of course there are those who will highlight certain incidents to suit their own particular political or other agenda.

    (Some years ago I worked in the Middle East, including Jeddah, Riyadh and Taif, which is the summer capital of Saudi Arabia, and is located in the mountains not far from Mecca. To get to Jeddah from Taif, one has to go past, through, or circle around Mecca.
    I was thus fortunate enough to visit Mecca on numerous occasions, as well as performing Hajj
    )
    I wish I could go to Mecca one day. How hard would it be for a non-Muslim? I'm guessing really hard. Someone here told me you need a special visa?

    I've been to Jerusalem and Constantinople (Istanbul) - I have a feeling Mecca and Medina would be very difficult.
    Last edited by OZGOD; 3rd November 2014 at 14:39.


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  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    I wish I could go to Mecca one day. How hard would it be for a non-Muslim? I'm guessing really hard. Someone here told me you need a special visa?

    I've been to Jerusalem and Constantinople (Istanbul) - I have a feeling Mecca and Medina would be very difficult.
    There are millions of non-Muslims working in Saudi Arabia. The Saudi's issue separate ID cards for Saudi's, foreign Muslim workers and their dependants, and foreign non-Muslim workers and their dependants.Unfortunately the Saudi's don't allow any non-Muslims to enter Mecca.

    However: Considering the amount of construction that has gone on in Mecca, including in the form of posh hotels, shopping malls and the like, as well as in and around the Grand Mosque itself, with many, if not most, of these hotels and shopping malls having been designed by non-Muslim Western architects, along with project managers and technical experts from the West, not all of them being Muslims ..... lets just say that non-Muslims not being allowed into Mecca is just for public consumption!


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Recently on my trip to Istanbul, I saw this and thought was a good Intro to Islam

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  5. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    @ OZGOD ; @hussain.r97 is talking a load of rubbish when he says Shia muslims are not allowed to go to Mecca. Tens of thousands of Iranians go to Hajj every year. Here is an article from Press TV, which is based in Tehran, Iran re this years Hajj
    @Yossarian @OZGOD
    I never said Shia aren't allowed to go. I said they find it very difficult to go. Quite often they don't give you a visa or the Muslim certificate. A lot of the time we end up declaring we're sunni, and have to go with a sunni caravan. Even when Shia get there, if the religious police find out you're Shia, you're in trouble. Also there is a certain site only Shia go to for pilgrimage. The facilities there are rubbish compared to all the other sites.


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    Worth noting OzGod that the Saudi royal family is running a nation state...it isn't a Shariah state...there are actually lots of Shia in Saudi in Taif in particular...which is a rich oil region..

    Historically the relationship between the family and Shia has been a nasty one...the general position of Wahabis is that Shia worship graves...and consequently the Saudis even destroyed tombs of some of the Shia imams...mosques have been destroyed and some have argued that an apartheid exists there almost with shias having no access to decent jobs... shias are restricted from being governors and aren't allowed in the army for instance...shia are restricted from celebrating Ashura among other things...to my understanding shia testimony isn't recognized in court...

    The Saudi regime also has a standard position...any arguments for reform are judged as being Iranian pushed and thus protesters are generally arrested as terrorists or for trying to create sectarian strife...a prominent shia scholar was sentenced to death last month for asking for reform...another one earlier this year asked for constitutional changes to improve the status of the shia and he was arrested for creating sectarian strife...hes currently serving an 8 year sentence...to give an example of something that led to arrests...in Medina some Saudi attacked some shia for their heretical views...a cleric was stabbed to death but those involved were released...protests by the Shia asking for action for the killings led to their arrests...

    That said Saudi has sometimes been accommodating and sometimes hasn't...Fahd and Abdullah were significantly more accommodating than most Saudi rulers which was still extremely discriminatory but now its back to normal...the example of Sunnis not being charged for the clerics death was actually under Abdullah...Abdullah encouraged dialogue but in truth nothing actually changed...

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Worth noting OzGod that the Saudi royal family is running a nation state...it isn't a Shariah state...there are actually lots of Shia in Saudi in Taif in particular...which is a rich oil region..

    Historically the relationship between the family and Shia has been a nasty one...the general position of Wahabis is that Shia worship graves...and consequently the Saudis even destroyed tombs of some of the Shia imams...mosques have been destroyed and some have argued that an apartheid exists there almost with shias having no access to decent jobs... shias are restricted from being governors and aren't allowed in the army for instance...shia are restricted from celebrating Ashura among other things...to my understanding shia testimony isn't recognized in court...

    The Saudi regime also has a standard position...any arguments for reform are judged as being Iranian pushed and thus protesters are generally arrested as terrorists or for trying to create sectarian strife...a prominent shia scholar was sentenced to death last month for asking for reform...another one earlier this year asked for constitutional changes to improve the status of the shia and he was arrested for creating sectarian strife...hes currently serving an 8 year sentence...to give an example of something that led to arrests...in Medina some Saudi attacked some shia for their heretical views...a cleric was stabbed to death but those involved were released...protests by the Shia asking for action for the killings led to their arrests...

    That said Saudi has sometimes been accommodating and sometimes hasn't...Fahd and Abdullah were significantly more accommodating than most Saudi rulers which was still extremely discriminatory but now its back to normal...the example of Sunnis not being charged for the clerics death was actually under Abdullah...Abdullah encouraged dialogue but in truth nothing actually changed...
    @shaykh @OZGOD @Yossarian

    Thank you!

    This is why Shia find it difficult to go to Saudi Arabia. Many Wahabi's believe we worship Imam Ali (as), which is not true at all! The reason we have Imam Ali's (as) name in the Azan is because when Muawiya and Yazid were Khalifa, they used to get the Imam of each mosque to publicly curse Imam Ali (as) from the mimbar, and after every prayer, they would curse him. They even killed anyone called Ali, they wanted Ali's name to die out. Muawiya and Yazid even got people to change Hadith to reflect on Imam Ali (as) negatively. The Shia added Ali's name to the Azan so his name wouldn't die out, otherwise it isn't necessary in this day and age, and an Azan without his name is perfectly acceptable.

    Some things are partly our fault, many of the rituals subcontinent and sometimes Iranian Shia do don't look right in Islam. The reality is no one else knows why we do those rituals. Those rituals were started to attract Hindu's and Zoroastrians to convert to Shia Islam (it worked), otherwise these rituals hold no religious significance. The Arab Shia object on these rituals.
    Last edited by hussain.r97; 3rd November 2014 at 21:24.


    “It is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.”
    ― Imran Khan

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Worth noting OzGod that the Saudi royal family is running a nation state...it isn't a Shariah state...there are actually lots of Shia in Saudi in Taif in particular...which is a rich oil region...
    @OZGOD
    I actually lived and worked in Taif for over a year and a half. Taif is not an oil rich region. Taif is up in the mountains and as such the daytime temperatures are more bearable during the summer whilst Riyadh is extremely hot. Jeddah is also hot as well as being very humid due to it being on the Red Sea coast. Hence, Taif is the summer capital of Saudi Arabia, with much of the govt. apparatus relocating to Taif and the surrounding areas during the summer months.

    The surrounding area is also a bit of a getaway at weekends during the summer months, with large numbers of visitors coming up from Jeddah and Mecca to get away from the heat.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 3rd November 2014 at 21:33.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  9. #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    @OZGOD
    I actually lived and worked in Taif for over a year and a half. Taif is not an oil rich region. Taif is up in the mountains and as such the daytime temperatures are more bearable during the summer whilst Riyadh is extremely hot. Jeddah is also hot as well as being very humid due to it being on the Red Sea coast. Hence, Taif is the summer capital of Saudi Arabia, with much of the govt. apparatus relocating to Taif and the surrounding areas during the summer months.

    The surrounding area is also a bit of a getaway at weekends during the summer months, with large numbers of visitors coming up from Jeddah and Mecca to get away from the heat.
    Yeh my mistake...got Qatif and Taif mixed up...

    Did you make it to the Eastern province at all?...

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Yeh my mistake...got Qatif and Taif mixed up...

    Did you make it to the Eastern province at all?...
    Yes, but only to visit friends in Dhahran who were working for ARAMCO. My time in Saudi Arabia was split between Jeddah, Riyadh and Taif. One of my best friends parents lived in their ancestral home in Mecca. He used to invite me to come along and spend weekends with his family (- I was in my late 20's at the time and they effectively treated me like a member of the family, and as such mixing, eating, socialising, playing badminton, squash and tennis, including mixed doubles, with the family as if I was a brother or son). Due to the family's historic connections, my friend was even able to show me around parts of the Grand Mosque that is out of bounds to visitors and pilgrims.

    (- and just for info, many of my current (non-conventional) views on Islam were inspired by my friend and his brothers ...)
    Last edited by Yossarian; 3rd November 2014 at 22:12.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  11. #411
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    Despite of poor relationship between Iran and Saudi Arabia that affects the entire Muslim world including Pakistan. But Iranian former PM was treated with respect. In fact, he, Iranian former PM, did perform Hajj at one time as i recall.

    Saudi king invites Iranian President Ahmadinejad to Mecca for Hajj

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/saudi-ki...-hajj-1.235523


    Ahmadinejad on pilgrimage to Makkah, invited by King Abdullah

    http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Ahmad...lah-11029.html


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    There is lots of restrictions in Iran which one of them is woman not being allowed to watch the game alone in the stadium which makes you appreciate Pakistan even more especially unlimited freedom to exercise in Pakistan, not to mention excessive illegal.

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZGOD View Post
    I wish I could go to Mecca one day. How hard would it be for a non-Muslim? I'm guessing really hard. Someone here told me you need a special visa?

    I've been to Jerusalem and Constantinople (Istanbul) - I have a feeling Mecca and Medina would be very difficult.
    You are very lucky man. I have always wanted to go to Jerusalem and Constantinople. I have yet to go to Mecca. My prayer is with you. I have heard that people describe special feeling after visiting Hajj. To be fair, this goes back to Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) and his firstborn son Ishmael (PBUH). Visiting Hajj must be like walking in the ancient past.

    Care to explain your feelings when you visited Jerusalem and Constantinopole first time? @OZGOD

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    No it didn't...

    Islam ended enslaving dhimmi and introduced certain rights for the slave...Islam however actively contributed to [B]globalizing slavery...



    Internal enslavement was forbidden...but external was fine...you could buy existing slaves and that is exactly what the Islamic empire did...it built a global market where everyone was selling slaves to the Islamic empire...

    Also slaves were attained through battle as spoils of war...

    And slaves were received as tribute from other lands...

    Islam never ended slavery...far from it...
    To some extent, some thing remained same. I am familiar with Ottoman Empire's past.

    But that doesn't change the fact that black people did come back to Makkah as free. Then everything changed from black people to woman including the implementation of financial benefits for disadvantage people, even today West follow the financial benefits invented by Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (R.A).

    And you get the Sodom and Gomorrah story mixed up...Muslims just stole the story from the Hebrews...there is actually no actual evidence that they were more homosexual there than anywhere else...

    And the Hebrew story wasn't even originally portrayed as being about homosexuality but about poor hospitality...Lot's townspeople were inhospitable...the amusing thing about the whole story and this is in both the Muslim and Jewish version is this fantastic Prophet Lut actually offered up his virgin daughters for the townspeople to rape...how anyone can take this story seriously is beyond me...

    The Jews transformed this story into a homosexual one...the Christians adopted it so did the Muslims...the story itself was never originally about homosexuality...but was sold that way...
    Judaism, Christianity and Islam have one thing in common. They are Abrahamic faiths as the bloodline of Prophet Moses of Judaism and Prophet Isa of Christianity (PBUTA) goes back to second son of Prophet Ibrahim, Ishaq (PBUH) while the bloodline of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) of Islam goes back to firstborn son of Prophet Ibrahim, Ishmail (PBUH).

    Prophet Moses (PBUH) was presented with Mosaic Law which later revived by Prophet Isa (PBUH) as soon as the corruption kicked in. After years later, Christianity gave in to the corruption. So, Islam revived the Mosaic Law. After 1400 years later, Holy Quran still remains the same. The source of all the Abrahamic faiths is Singular. But the first two Abrahamic faiths were corrupted so final Abrahamic faith was sent to revived Mosaic Law.

    Technically, it is hard to copy from the previous scriptures when they are no longer the same anymore.

    On bold; there is no actual evidence because those are removed from the facet of the Earth forever. Same case with Prophet Noah (PBUH) and the entire civilization. The whole world was destroyed except few people and Prophet Noah (PBUH) as they boarded on Ark.
    Last edited by Fallen King; 4th November 2014 at 00:25.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalikMohsin View Post
    Same case with Prophet Noah (PBUH) and the entire civilization. The whole world was destroyed except few people and Prophet Noah (PBUH) as they boarded on Ark.
    How long ago would that be. Where did all the different human races and other species of animals that are not native to middle-east emerge from as they could not have been rescued on Noah's ark.


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  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Yes, but only to visit friends in Dhahran who were working for ARAMCO. My time in Saudi Arabia was split between Jeddah, Riyadh and Taif. One of my best friends parents lived in their ancestral home in Mecca. He used to invite me to come along and spend weekends with his family (- I was in my late 20's at the time and they effectively treated me like a member of the family, and as such mixing, eating, socialising, playing badminton, squash and tennis, including mixed doubles, with the family as if I was a brother or son). Due to the family's historic connections, my friend was even able to show me around parts of the Grand Mosque that is out of bounds to visitors and pilgrims.

    (- and just for info, many of my current (non-conventional) views on Islam were inspired by my friend and his brothers ...)
    So I gather its reasonably true that the notion of law and order is nepotism based?...

    I've been told Saudi can be fun if you know the 'right' people...

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    From what I know, Sunni's in Iran can practice their beliefs, but there is still some discrimination. There are Sunni mosques in Iran, but apparently there aren't any Sunni mosques in the capital, Tehran. This is apparently because the authorities say 'why build more mosques when everyone is muslim'. I'm not too sure about this though, maybe someone else could give you a better insight on this. What I know for sure is Sunni's in Iran are treated better than Shia's in Saudi Arabia. From what I've heard, Iran is actually a very nice place, but is portrayed badly through the media, everyone who's been there always come back happy. Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, Azerbaijan and possibly Yemen are Shia majority countries. The Arab World, Pakistan and India have quite a large Shia population too. In fact, you will find more Syeds (descendants of the prophet, normally Shia) in the subcontinent than anywhere else in the world. When you go to Iraq for to visit shrines etc, poor people who ask for prayers ask if you're from the subcontinent before they ask you're Syed.
    who said syed are shia muslims..? There is Panakkad Syed family in kerala and they are absolutely sunnis..


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  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalikMohsin View Post
    To some extent, some thing remained same. I am familiar with Ottoman Empire's past.

    But that doesn't change the fact that black people did come back to Makkah as free. Then everything changed from black people to woman including the implementation of financial benefits for disadvantage people, even today West follow the financial benefits invented by Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (R.A).



    Judaism, Christianity and Islam have one thing in common. They are Abrahamic faiths as the bloodline of Prophet Moses of Judaism and Prophet Isa of Christianity (PBUTA) goes back to second son of Prophet Ibrahim, Ishaq (PBUH) while the bloodline of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) of Islam goes back to firstborn son of Prophet Ibrahim, Ishmail (PBUH).

    Prophet Moses (PBUH) was presented with Mosaic Law which later revived by Prophet Isa (PBUH) as soon as the corruption kicked in. After years later, Christianity gave in to the corruption. So, Islam revived the Mosaic Law. After 1400 years later, Holy Quran still remains the same. The source of all the Abrahamic faiths is Singular. But the first two Abrahamic faiths were corrupted so final Abrahamic faith was sent to revived Mosaic Law.

    Technically, it is hard to copy from the previous scriptures when they are no longer the same anymore.

    On bold; there is no actual evidence because those are removed from the facet of the Earth forever. Same case with Prophet Noah (PBUH) and the entire civilization. The whole world was destroyed except few people and Prophet Noah (PBUH) as they boarded on Ark.
    A few things...

    Islam claims it hasn't been changed...fact is it has...and even Muslims admit it has...the issue is over determining whether those changes effect the notion of preservation...the version found in Yemen is the oldest codex and has different words, different order etc to the Quran we have today...

    In addition as mentioned already seera claims that Uthman burned Qurans in order to adopt a uniform Quran...there was fear that Islam could end up like Judaism and Christianity...

    In short we know 100% that the Quran hasn't remained exactly the same...the debate is about whether these changes are insignificant...

    http://www.theguardian.com/education...on.theguardian

    We have no complete version of a Quran from even Uthmans time...so we have no evidence of this uniform Quran...all we actually have is a claim...a claim that it hasn't changed...we CANT even verify whether the claim is true...

    Would have been nice for Allah to ensure that proof was left of his claim...

    Incidentally this whole notion of Jewish corruption is again based on a claim without proof...

    Jews like Muslims claim that their text hasn't been corrupted and the Torah has been maintained...difference that exist are insignificant etc...

    Note that the Quran doesnt specify which parts of the Torah are corrupt...but again like Muslims who can verify this claim?...

    We don't have access to the original Torah either with the Leningrad version being the earliest available one...

    In short for Muslims the proof of the Torahs corruption is due to the Quran saying it is...and the proof of the Qurans preservation is because the Quran says it has been preserved...

    There is no physical evidence for any claims Muslims or Jews make about the preservation of their texts...if anything physical evidence brings about more doubts...

    Not very helpful really...

    As for slavery i have discussed it to death on here...Islam INCREASED slavery...and created a global market for it...your comment about black people is irrelevant...slaves were all sorts including black people...slavery wasnt race based but faith based...

  18. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    So I gather its reasonably true that the notion of law and order is nepotism based?...

    I've been told Saudi can be fun if you know the 'right' people...
    Do you know of any country where it's completely absent?
    Besides, what's my post that you've quoted have anything to do with law and order? And if you mean being shown around the parts of the Grand Mosque out of bounds to visitors and pilgrims, well I wasn't a 'visitor', or a 'pilgrim' at the time but a 'guest'. Never heard of 'guests' being shown around historic or religious sites which are normally out of bounds to the general public?

    Incidentally, is it typical of you to ask a normal, reasonable question, presumably just out of interest, and when getting a reply, that answers your question as well as adding some extra details to complete the picture, you then have to turn it into something else with a banal comment about nepotism?, Or is it just that you don't think that are any decent Arabs in Saudi Arabia?


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    A few things...

    Islam claims it hasn't been changed...fact is it has...and even Muslims admit it has...the issue is over determining whether those changes effect the notion of preservation...the version found in Yemen is the oldest codex and has different words, different order etc to the Quran we have today...

    In addition as mentioned already seera claims that Uthman burned Qurans in order to adopt a uniform Quran...there was fear that Islam could end up like Judaism and Christianity...

    In short we know 100% that the Quran hasn't remained exactly the same...the debate is about whether these changes are insignificant...

    http://www.theguardian.com/education...on.theguardian

    We have no complete version of a Quran from even Uthmans time...so we have no evidence of this uniform Quran...all we actually have is a claim...a claim that it hasn't changed...we CANT even verify whether the claim is true...

    Would have been nice for Allah to ensure that proof was left of his claim...

    Incidentally this whole notion of Jewish corruption is again based on a claim without proof...

    Jews like Muslims claim that their text hasn't been corrupted and the Torah has been maintained...difference that exist are insignificant etc...

    Note that the Quran doesnt specify which parts of the Torah are corrupt...but again like Muslims who can verify this claim?...

    We don't have access to the original Torah either with the Leningrad version being the earliest available one...

    In short for Muslims the proof of the Torahs corruption is due to the Quran saying it is...and the proof of the Qurans preservation is because the Quran says it has been preserved...

    There is no physical evidence for any claims Muslims or Jews make about the preservation of their texts...if anything physical evidence brings about more doubts...

    Not very helpful really...

    As for slavery i have discussed it to death on here...Islam INCREASED slavery...and created a global market for it...your comment about black people is irrelevant...slaves were all sorts including black people...slavery wasnt race based but faith based...
    There is a very old Quran in topkapi palace museum in Istanbul....... Its over a thousand years old. Do you think it differs in any way to the one we have today?

    Actually there is one in the British Museum from the 8th century! It went on display couple of years ago.
    Last edited by Eagle_Eye; 4th November 2014 at 16:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Do you know of any country where it's completely absent?
    Besides, what's my post that you've quoted have anything to do with law and order? And if you mean being shown around the parts of the Grand Mosque out of bounds to visitors and pilgrims, well I wasn't a 'visitor', or a 'pilgrim' at the time but a 'guest'. Never heard of 'guests' being shown around historic or religious sites which are normally out of bounds to the general public?

    Incidentally, is it typical of you to ask a normal, reasonable question, presumably just out of interest, and when getting a reply, that answers your question as well as adding some extra details to complete the picture, you then have to turn it into something else with a banal comment about nepotism?, Or is it just that you don't think that are any decent Arabs in Saudi Arabia?
    I wasn't actually being rude about the people that you were guests to...its nice they showed you around and they sound liberal etc...the question i raised about law and order is that obviously something like mixed doubles for instance is against the law there...

    My question on nepotism was simply a question of whether Saudis apply their stringent laws on everyone...

    As someone that lived there I was interested in what you had to say on the subject...I wasnt judging your friends hospitality or passing judgement on them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    There is a very old Quran in topkapi palace museum in Istanbul....... Its over a thousand years old. Do you think it differs in any way to the one we have today?

    Actually there is one in the British Museum from the 8th century! It went on display couple of years ago.
    Topkapi Quran is old...but it's not from Uthmans time but comes after...also comparing it to the ones we have today isn't accurate cos its not complete anyway...parts are missing...

    The British version you mention has 47% of its content missing...and yep as you mention its from the 8th century so after Uthmans time...

    Uthman died in 656...so we have no complete copies of a Quran from his time when he codified it...we have nothing from Muhammads actual time...

    Would have been nice to actually see if the claims for preservation could be assessed...and thats my point...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Topkapi Quran is old...but it's not from Uthmans time but comes after...also comparing it to the ones we have today isn't accurate cos its not complete anyway...parts are missing...

    The British version you mention has 47% of its content missing...and yep as you mention its from the 8th century so after Uthmans time...

    Uthman died in 656...so we have no complete copies of a Quran from his time when he codified it...we have nothing from Muhammads actual time...

    Would have been nice to actually see if the claims for preservation could be assessed...and thats my point...
    Quran was memorised by many of the earliest muslims, It can easily be put into book form by collecting a large group and than correcting one another if any makes a mistake.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    I wasn't actually being rude about the people that you were guests to...its nice they showed you around and they sound liberal etc...the question i raised about law and order is that obviously something like mixed doubles for instance is against the law there...
    Well since the family effectively adopted me as a brother /son , and I mixed with the family as such, then no laws were broken, religious or otherwise. When my mother visited for Hajj, she also spent a few nights at their house. In return, when the whole family came for a holiday to the UK, they made a point of visiting my parents (- and I was in Saudi at the time!).

    My question on nepotism was simply a question of whether Saudis apply their stringent laws on everyone...

    As someone that lived there I was interested in what you had to say on the subject...I wasnt judging your friends hospitality or passing judgement on them...
    I guess I was a bit too quick and too harsh on accusing you of rudeness. I misunderstood. Apologies.

    As for your question about laws .... well there are laws and there are laws ....

    Generally speaking, the Saudi authorities leave you alone as long as whatever you do that would be considered 'normal' in the West, but technically illegal in Saudi, you do it at home or within your residential compound.

    Being a 'Westerner', of Pakistani origin, but who could also pass off as a Saudi (when dressed in Arabic clothing - as long as I don't open my mouth to try and speak in Arabic ... haha), I had a foot in every camp.

    There are a number of events which, over the years, have been sensationalised in the West, but I know the reality as being very different due to getting first hand accounts from those who were present at the time. You would be absolutely shocked at some of the things that the Westerners get up to when away from their husbands, wives and girlfriends back home in the US or UK. (hint: Parties in the desert, at the beach miles from the nearest town/village, in private Western company's residential compounds, involving Western nurses, air hostesses, engineers, Western civilian support staff when the US/UK sells military hardware ......). The Saudi authorities know about all this, including who, when and where, but leave the Westerners alone as long as they don't involve/include any of the locals. The husbands / wives back home falsely believe that they don't have to fear their partners 'playing away' considering they were in Saudi with all it's restrictions ... but little do they know!!

    The Saudi's don't want negative publicity when Westerners are involved, so any wrongdoers who get caught, unless it's something serious involving some high official, usually get shipped out quietly instead of being prosecuted.

    And oh yes,.. alcohol ...put it this way, I knew of many colleagues who were sent back home to the UK or USA to 'dry out' due to excessive drinking.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 4th November 2014 at 17:51.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Topkapi Quran is old...but it's not from Uthmans time but comes after...also comparing it to the ones we have today isn't accurate cos its not complete anyway...parts are missing...

    The British version you mention has 47% of its content missing...and yep as you mention its from the 8th century so after Uthmans time...

    Uthman died in 656...so we have no complete copies of a Quran from his time when he codified it...we have nothing from Muhammads actual time...

    Would have been nice to actually see if the claims for preservation could be assessed...and thats my point...
    i never claimed it was from uthman's time. nonethless, whatever exists in both versions.... are there differences that alter meaning?

    forget that, if we go and have a look at 200 or 300 year old complete copy... are there differences that alter meaning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by speed View Post
    Quran was memorised by many of the earliest muslims, It can easily be put into book form by collecting a large group and than correcting one another if any makes a mistake.
    Which is what happened...and even then there was disagreement and people making mistakes...during the time of Uthman there were a variety of different codifications...Zayd's codification wasn't the only one as i have mentioned before...Uthman just chose to adopt one version...and burn the rest...this was especially pertinent as the Islamic empire grew...

    Difference existed, words were different etc but I suppose whether this matters or not depends on how you view preservation...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    i never claimed it was from uthman's time. nonethless, whatever exists in both versions.... are there differences that alter meaning?

    forget that, if we go and have a look at 200 or 300 year old complete copy... are there differences that alter meaning?
    And that is my point...how does one assess preservation as proof when we don't have the original available...

    The Jews incidentally make the same argument btw...people memorized...our texts are the same etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Well since the family effectively adopted me as a brother /son , and I mixed with the family as such, then no laws were broken, religious or otherwise. When my mother visited for Hajj, she also spent a few nights at their house. In return, when the whole family came for a holiday to the UK, they made a point of visiting my parents (- and I was in Saudi at the time!).

    I guess I was a bit too quick and too harsh on accusing you of rudeness. I misunderstood. Apologies.

    As for your question about laws .... well there are laws and there are laws ....

    Generally speaking, the Saudi authorities leave you alone as long as whatever you do that would be considered 'normal' in the West, but technically illegal in Saudi, you do it at home or within your residential compound.

    Being a 'Westerner', of Pakistani origin, but who could also pass off as a Saudi (when dressed in Arabic clothing - as long as I don't open my mouth to try and speak in Arabic ... haha), I had a foot in every camp.

    There are a number of events which, over the years, have been sensationalised in the West, but I know the reality as being very different due to getting first hand accounts from those who were present at the time. You would be absolutely shocked at some of the things that the Westerners get up to when away from their husbands, wives and girlfriends back home in the US or UK. (hint: Parties in the desert, at the beach miles from the nearest town/village, in private Western company's residential compounds, involving Western nurses, air hostesses, engineers, Western civilian support staff when the US/UK sells military hardware ......). The Saudi authorities know about all this, including who, when and where, but leave the Westerners alone as long as they don't involve/include any of the locals. The husbands / wives back home falsely believe that they don't have to fear their partners 'playing away' considering they were in Saudi with all it's restrictions ... but little do they know!!

    The Saudi's don't want negative publicity when Westerners are involved, so any wrongdoers who get caught, unless it's something serious involving some high official, usually get shipped out quietly instead of being prosecuted.

    And oh yes,.. alcohol ...put it this way, I knew of many colleagues who were sent back home to the UK or USA to 'dry out' due to excessive drinking.
    Haha so Saudi can be a fun place...

    Do Muslim Westerners enjoy the same freedom as your average Westerners?...

    And when you say don't involve the locals are you referring to your average joe or Saudis in general?...are say upper crust Saudis enjoying a party lifestyle in Saudi?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Haha so Saudi can be a fun place...

    Do Muslim Westerners enjoy the same freedom as your average Westerners?..
    Yes and no.
    As a Muslim once or twice some guards at Western residential compounds and/or swimming pools and leisure centres (set aside for Westerners) tried to prevent me from entering because I was a Muslim (shown on my ID) and Muslims were not allowed in ! Fortunately, my Western friends and colleagues knew me as a 'Brit'. in every sense of the word, and ensured such rules didn't apply to me. There are some advantages of having a foot in every camp and being treated accordingly depending upon who was doing the treating.

    And when you say don't involve the locals are you referring to your average joe or Saudis in general?...are say upper crust Saudis enjoying a party lifestyle in Saudi?...
    Depends who the Westerners were. Average Joe Westerner didn't want any Saudi's around during their partying, whether the average Saudi or someone high up, just in case, but high up Saudi's and Westerners in high positions ... well that's a different story.
    Last edited by Yossarian; 4th November 2014 at 18:42.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Smbhayi View Post
    who said syed are shia muslims..? There is Panakkad Syed family in kerala and they are absolutely sunnis..
    I said MOST Syed's are Shia. There are some exceptions.
    Last edited by hussain.r97; 4th November 2014 at 21:02.


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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    And that is my point...how does one assess preservation as proof when we don't have the original available...

    The Jews incidentally make the same argument btw...people memorized...our texts are the same etc...

    Did you not agree with me on the previous page about this and now you go off one one again

    How many hafidh of the torah were/are there compared to hafidh of the quran?



    It's why the quran will/ can never die out due purely to the amount of hafiz there are worldwide


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    Quote Originally Posted by MalikMohsin View Post
    You are very lucky man. I have always wanted to go to Jerusalem and Constantinople. I have yet to go to Mecca. My prayer is with you. I have heard that people describe special feeling after visiting Hajj. To be fair, this goes back to Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) and his firstborn son Ishmael (PBUH). Visiting Hajj must be like walking in the ancient past.

    Care to explain your feelings when you visited Jerusalem and Constantinopole first time? @OZGOD
    Well I went to Jerusalem with my family back in 2000 during Holy Week which coincided with the Jewish festival of Passover. It was really a pilgrimage to visit the holy places, like the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, the Garden of Gethsemane. You really get a sense of history when you enter the Old City of Jerusalem. We visited the Gates (Damascus Gate, Zion Gate, Herod's Gate, all built by Suleyman the Magnificent) and did the Stations of the Cross along the Via Dolorosa (Way of Suffering) which was supposedly the route that Jesus took on his way to be crucified. We also looked at other monuments like the Dome of the Rock, the Al-Aqsa Mosque located on the Temple Mount, which in Judaism and Christianity is where the Jewish Temples once stood. Also visited the Wailing Wall. I remember looking at the Old City and thinking, some of these buildings are nearly 2000 years old. This place is holy to all the Abrahamic religions. Coming from Australia which as a country is only 226 years old I felt very small. It was the same in Istanbul although it felt a little more modern. The Old City in Jerusalem really made me feel like i was back in time.


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    Quote Originally Posted by chacha kashmiri View Post
    Did you not agree with me on the previous page about this and now you go off one one again

    How many hafidh of the torah were/are there compared to hafidh of the quran?

    It's why the quran will/ can never die out due purely to the amount of hafiz there are worldwide

    I never said i agreed with you...I said you had a credible argument...but the point remains that there were differences...enough differences that resulted in all the other copies getting burned...the sahih hadith i provided explained the reasoning behind the burning...there was a concern about corruption...and the fact that people were making mistakes...dialect or not mistakes were being made...

    People were memorizing but they are human beings who make mistakes...even in Bukhari it is stated that there were differences:

    Narrated Ibrahim: The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abu Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them,: "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (The Night)?“ Alqama recited:
    “By the male and the female.” (Qur’an 92:3)
    Abu Darda said, "I testify that I heard the Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to recite it:
    “And by Him Who created male and female.” (Qur’an 92:3)
    But by Allah, I will not follow them."

    These are different words...the meaning is the same however so it depends what you mean by by preservation...

    And here is the Bukhari hadith again:

    Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people (Muslims) of Syria and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azarbaijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Syria and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue."

    I can't explain why there wasnt a rebellion...it seems perfectly feasible that people were aware that there were different memorizations from different people...the hadith suggest that...and they seemed to accept that point...human beings are human beings and they make mistakes...they also seem well aware of the importance of a uniform version...

    The fact is we have no physical proof that there is no change...all we have is a claim...unfortunately we have no Uthmani Quran and we also have no access to the other versions cos Uthman burned them...your only evidence for the claim is the book itself...

    Also a simple refutation to your memorization point is that Abu Bakr decided on a mus'haf in the first place...he 'feared' the Quran was lost so decided to form a codified written version...Allah promised to preserve the oral tradition so why the need for a written version anyway?...fact is he didn't have confidence in the idea of an oral tradition...

    More Bukhari:

    Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected."

    In addition the Jews claim the same thing...I don't know how many memorizers they have...what I do know is human beings are fallible and when the rational argument points to the fact that there were changes then proof is required...proof which doesnt exist...

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    @shaykh

    Islam spread with the practice of memorization. Even today, we have six million people [official] who have memorized the Holy Qur'an.
    Experts of Islam attests that Holy Quran is still remain the same after 1400 years later. I cannot prove it since i am not memorized student of Holy Qur'an nor i am expert in Islam. So i have to take the words of those who are experts in Islam.

    It is up to you to prove that Holy Quran is not the same anymore.

    Some crucial points:

    * People also said Islam copied from Bible. Guess what? Bible in Arabic translated text was revealed 30 years later after Islam.

    * Bible did mention the birth of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), his family (R.A), and Imam Mahdi (R.A).

    * First two Abrahamic Faiths started off as Monotheism hijacked by third-party that promoted Polytheism.

    * Islam came to revived Mosaic Law, brought Monotheism back. But years after years later, some sects of Islam may now practice Polytheism despite of Holy Quran remain unchanged, although one of the main reason would be ignorance, in other word, lack of knowledge of Holy Quran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalikMohsin View Post
    @shaykh

    Islam spread with the practice of memorization. Even today, we have six million people [official] who have memorized the Holy Qur'an.
    Experts of Islam attests that Holy Quran is still remain the same after 1400 years later. I cannot prove it since i am not memorized student of Holy Qur'an nor i am expert in Islam. So i have to take the words of those who are experts in Islam.

    It is up to you to prove that Holy Quran is not the same anymore.

    Some crucial points:

    * People also said Islam copied from Bible. Guess what? Bible in Arabic translated text was revealed 30 years later after Islam.

    * Bible did mention the birth of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), his family (R.A), and Imam Mahdi (R.A).

    * First two Abrahamic Faiths started off as Monotheism hijacked by third-party that promoted Polytheism.

    * Islam came to revived Mosaic Law, brought Monotheism back. But years after years later, some sects of Islam may now practice Polytheism despite of Holy Quran remain unchanged, although one of the main reason would be ignorance, in other word, lack of knowledge of Holy Quran.
    On your crucial points:

    Your first one...you can't say that with certainty...Christians and Jews existed and they spoke Arabic...its a lot more probable that Muhammad regurgitated known stories...you can't have it both ways...you can't big up an oral tradition and then be mystified because nothing is written in Arabic therefore what Muhammad is saying is miraculous...you're presuming no-one knows their faith...and it was impossible for Muhammad to have heard these stories...

    And thing is this idea of the Bible not being translated contradicts sahih hadith...

    Both of these are from bukhari:

    Narrated 'Aisha:
    The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic. Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."

    Waraqa had been converted to Christianity in the Pre-lslamic Period and used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight..."

    Christians also claim that there were Qurans translated into Arabic at this time...its all hearsay after all but hadith show your first point to be false...

    And for someone who doesn't believe in Islam...all your point suggests is no Bible in Arabic have been discovered from that period yet...and funnily enough no Quran from that period has been discovered yet either...fact is we don't know...

    Your 3rd and 4th point are claims which you don't back up...you have just used blanket statements...

    As for your claim about Muhammad in the Torah and Bible...where exactly?...

  35. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    On your crucial points:

    Your first one...you can't say that with certainty...Christians and Jews existed and they spoke Arabic...its a lot more probable that Muhammad regurgitated known stories...you can't have it both ways...you can't big up an oral tradition and then be mystified because nothing is written in Arabic therefore what Muhammad is saying is miraculous...you're presuming no-one knows their faith...and it was impossible for Muhammad to have heard these stories...

    And thing is this idea of the Bible not being translated contradicts sahih hadith...

    Both of these are from bukhari:

    Narrated 'Aisha:
    The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic. Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."

    Waraqa had been converted to Christianity in the Pre-lslamic Period and used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight..."

    Christians also claim that there were Qurans translated into Arabic at this time...its all hearsay after all but hadith show your first point to be false...

    And for someone who doesn't believe in Islam...all your point suggests is no Bible in Arabic have been discovered from that period yet...and funnily enough no Quran from that period has been discovered yet either...fact is we don't know...

    Your 3rd and 4th point are claims which you don't back up...you have just used blanket statements...

    As for your claim about Muhammad in the Torah and Bible...where exactly?...
    I read about that article long time ago. I assumed this as fact without research. Thank for correction. I apologize for not being acquainted enough to realize jewish and christian people did live in Makkah at that time. Surely they must have something medium to rely on to seek the guidance.

    I still stand by what i said about Islam. Islam did start with people memorizing Holy Quran. If Holy Quran was not the same after few years later, then people who had memorized would have begged to differ or at least there would be debate enough to warrant the attention.

    After the death of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), Holy Quran lived on while gathered more followers and more experts expecially hafiz; the ones who memorized Holy Quran. Surely people would have spotted any changes in Holy Quran. Bear in mind that the first revelation came to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) at the age of 40. From the age of 40 to above 60, he continuously received revelation and people who received the messages memorized it and spread to the community.

    I am quite confident that Holy Quran cannot be altered, not while people was already memorizing verse-by-verse the more Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) received revelation. After his death, Islam already gained lots of followers who memorized Holy Quran, and later this converted into the medium such as book. But the practice of memorizing still continued to this day.

    We still have more than 6 million students from all over the world who memorized Holy Quran. This is official as i can safely assure because it was popular show [in Arab nation] where Muslim people from all over the world was given chance to showcase their skills [Memorization of Holy Quran]. Some are chosen from Pakistan was in the list - proud moment for Pakistan.
    Last edited by Fallen King; 5th November 2014 at 05:57.

  36. #436
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    Translations of the Bible into Arabic are known from the early Christian churches in Syria, Egypt, Malta and Spain. Some of these translations are from Syriac (the Peshitta), Coptic or Latin.[1] The earliest fragment of the Old Testament in Arabic is a text of Psalm 77, found in the Umayyad Mosque, dating from the 8th century.[2] The first Jewish translations of the Hebrew Bible, and the bible translations by Roman Catholic clergy date from c. AD 1000. One of the oldest Arabic bibles was discovered in the 19th century at Saint Catherine's Monastery. The manuscript called Mt. Sinai Arabic Codex 151, was created in AD 867. It includes the biblical text, marginal comments, lectionary notes, and glosses, as found in the manuscript.[1] Most Arabic translations have translated Yahweh (יהוה), the Hebrew name of God (LORD or Jehovah in English / Kyrios in Greek), as Allāh or Rabb. These are also the most frequent appellations made by Muslims as per Classical Arabic. The Aramaic Mār / Mōr (teacher or lord) is translated as Rabb or Sa‘īd. There are many cases where an etymological root exists between an Arabic word and the original Hebrew or Aramaic text, yet it is translated into a colloquial or a commonly used word instead.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_t...ns_into_Arabic

    I know Wiki is not reliable source. This is interesting if true.

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    Now i remember i read some article from Zakir Naik. I was just checking back. Like you, someone refuted to Zaik Naik regarding the first Arabic translated of Bible.

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Respo...ranclaims3.htm


    Narrated 'Aisha:

    The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic. Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605)

    "…Waraqa had been converted to Christianity in the Pre-lslamic Period and used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight..." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 478)

    "…Ka'b read the Torah and said: The Apostle of Allah has spoken the truth. Abu Hurayrah said: I met Abdullah ibn Salam and told him of my meeting with Ka'b." (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 3, Number 1041: Narrated Abu Hurayrah)

    "…(Muhammad's father) passed by a woman of the Kath'am (tribe) whose name was Fatimah Bint Murr and who was the prettiest of all women, in the full bloom of her youth and the most pious and had studied the scriptures; ..." (Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, p.104)

    Interestingly, the hadith reports that Waraqa even knew how to read Hebrew:

    "Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write ..." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Number 3)

    Furthermore, according to early Christian records there were actual Arabic translations of the New Testament that had been translated during the time of Muhammad:

    "The Gospels were translated into Arabic from the original Greek as well as Coptic and Syrian versions. Barhebreus writes of an Arabic translation made by a monophysite named Johannes, by the order of an Arab prince in A.D. 640. Oldest extant fragments of Arabic translations from the Greek date from the early ninth century. The oldest extant translation in the Syriac also dates back to the same time. It is likely, however, that portions of the Gospels were rendered into Arabic at a much earlier date that that mentioned above. George, a bishop of the Arabs of Mesopotamia, wrote a Scholia on the Scripture around the sixth century. But it appears that Christian teaching and preaching in the sixth century (A.D.) Arabia was done mainly by quoting from the Syriac or Ethiopic scripture and then giving a free rendering of it in Arabic ..." (Abdiyah Akbar Abdul-Haqq, Sharing Your Faith with a Muslim [Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis MN, 1980], p. 29)

    "A Coptic version of the New Testament was current toward the end of the third century... The Gospels were translated into Arabic from the Greek, Syriac, and Coptic versions. Barhebraeus speaks of such a translation made between A.D. 631-640. George, bishop of Arab tribes of Mesopotamia, a friend of James of Edessa (d. A.D. 578) wrote a Scholia on the Scriptures. According to Al-Baidhawi and other Muslim commentators, their prophet received instruction from learned Christians like Warqa b. Naufal, Jubra and Yasara (Baidhawi on Sura 16:105). Also, traditions relate how the prophet used to stop and listen to these two men as they read aloud the Books of Moses (Torah) and the Gospels (Injil). Apparently there was a translation of portions of the New Testament that was extant in Mecca during the rise of Islam. Such a translation must have existed along with the full versions of the New Testament in Syriac and Syriac Lectionaries." (Ibid., p. 56)

    It should be pointed out that there were also Arabic apocryphal Gospels available during Muhammad's time as well:

    "In addition to translations of the canonical Gospels, there were numerous Arabic translations of the New Testament apocrypha. Some of the better known of these like Protoevangelion of James, Gospel of the Infancy, Apocalypse of Paul, and the Apocryphal Acts of the Apostles were available in Arabic translation before the Koran ..." (Ibid., p. 29)

    Remind me not to take Zakir Naik so serious.

    Then again, it was long time ago.
    Last edited by Fallen King; 5th November 2014 at 05:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    I said MOST Syed's are Shia. There are some exceptions.
    And then there are more Syeds in Pakistan than in Iran, Saudia and the entire Arab world combined.

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    Is the lineage for syeds claimed from the father's side or the mother's side? Because afaik Prophet's sons died at an early age without getting married. So I believe the syed lineage must be coming from the daughters' side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeBird View Post
    And then there are more Syeds in Pakistan than in Iran, Saudia and the entire Arab world combined.
    That's correct and it's due to their persecution in the Arab world and Persia.


    “It is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.”
    ― Imran Khan

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    Is the lineage for syeds claimed from the father's side or the mother's side? Because afaik Prophet's sons died at an early age without getting married. So I believe the syed lineage must be coming from the daughters' side.
    It is from their fathers side. Syed's are the descendants of the Prophet through Imam Ali (as) and Bibi Fatima (swt). Someone who's mother is Syed and father is not is called a Mirza.


    “It is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.”
    ― Imran Khan

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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain.r97 View Post
    It is from their fathers side. Syed's are the descendants of the Prophet through Imam Ali (as) and Bibi Fatima (swt). Someone who's mother is Syed and father is not is called a Mirza.
    So basically syeds are descendants of Imam Ali. I thought a Syed meant descendant of the Prophet Muhammad ( in that case Bibi Fatima would be a syed, and the descendants of Imam Ali and Bibi Fatima would be all Mirzas).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalikMohsin View Post
    I read about that article long time ago. I assumed this as fact without research. Thank for correction. I apologize for not being acquainted enough to realize jewish and christian people did live in Makkah at that time. Surely they must have something medium to rely on to seek the guidance.

    I still stand by what i said about Islam. Islam did start with people memorizing Holy Quran. If Holy Quran was not the same after few years later, then people who had memorized would have begged to differ or at least there would be debate enough to warrant the attention.

    After the death of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), Holy Quran lived on while gathered more followers and more experts expecially hafiz; the ones who memorized Holy Quran. Surely people would have spotted any changes in Holy Quran. Bear in mind that the first revelation came to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) at the age of 40. From the age of 40 to above 60, he continuously received revelation and people who received the messages memorized it and spread to the community.

    I am quite confident that Holy Quran cannot be altered, not while people was already memorizing verse-by-verse the more Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) received revelation. After his death, Islam already gained lots of followers who memorized Holy Quran, and later this converted into the medium such as book. But the practice of memorizing still continued to this day.

    We still have more than 6 million students from all over the world who memorized Holy Quran. This is official as i can safely assure because it was popular show [in Arab nation] where Muslim people from all over the world was given chance to showcase their skills [Memorization of Holy Quran]. Some are chosen from Pakistan was in the list - proud moment for Pakistan.
    You're welcome...

    I guess we can agree to disagree on this one...like my previous post to Chacha Kashmiri I do feel there were differences based on the hadith provided...

    And on your point on i have to prove difference...the whole point is i can't and neither can you prove similarity because we don't have an Uthmani Quran...all you have is a claim...

    That said if we are to believe that the Quran hasn't changed...then this isn't evidence of a miracle...no more than the claim of inimitability being miraculous...

    And yeh the translations and discoveries of manuscripts is fascinating...part of me wishes I studied Archaelology...

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    So basically syeds are descendants of Imam Ali. I thought a Syed meant descendant of the Prophet Muhammad ( in that case Bibi Fatima would be a syed, and the descendants of Imam Ali and Bibi Fatima would be all Mirzas).
    ....it denotes males accepted as descendants of the Islamic prophet Muhammad through his grandsons, Hasan ibn Ali and Husayn ibn Ali, sons of Muhammad's daughter Fatimah and his son-in-law Ali (Ali ibn Abi Talib)....
    Here's the exact definition.


    “It is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.”
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    The most important point people who claim to be muslims need to be aware of is, islam is deen not mazhab. The only people who accept islam as mazhab are rulers, money lenders, mullahs, their touts and supporters.

    No messenger was sent by Allah but he worked for establishing deen of Allah not any mazhab. Mazhab is personal for individual but deen by its very nature demands society. The very idea that Allah sent messengers to guide mankind means that Allah wanted people to stick together for well being of each other as a starting point. This is why Allah created people into human relationships as interdependent so deen of islam is a program for mankind for accomplishing certain goals stated in the quran and there are also guidelines according to which these goals are to achieved. The quran is a foundation for a constitution and laws for forming a proper human community and bringing about a kingdom and maintaining it for proper development and progress of humanity so that it could thereafter accomplish other higher goals. This is why there is concept of ummah in deen of islam as well as of a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah.

    So people who do not accept islam as a deen are not accepted muslims by the quran because they do not accept the fact that law of Allah is supreme so they do not live by rule of law of Allah as a proper human community and instead live by rule of law of people by accepting the concept of man has right to rule over another man. This concept is all about divisions in humanity due to which there are rivalries and animosities therefore hatred and wars. It is because a way of life whereby one man rules over another is based upon personal gains at the expense of each other as opposed to living for well being of each other as a proper human community according to guidance provided by Allah. This is what divides people into advantaged and disadvantaged or rich and poor or strong and weak groups etc etc. The reason that divides occurs is because people do not use their God given abilities and things as they should. Since they misuse each and everything provided by Allah they end up hurting each other instead of ensuring well being of each other.

    This is why Allah provided mankind with guidance and some people accept that guidance and support it while others reject and oppose it so mankind become divided into two camps a)muslims and b)kufaar. This leads to permanent struggle between people belonging to two main groups of people. Since people who work for well being of humanity do as told but their opponents do as they like therefore the human world is not the way it is supposed to be. Since there is constant struggle between two groups of people who are following opposite ways of life therefore people do what they think will ensure dominance of their way of life over any other way way of life.

    From here begins all sorts of warfare between people to ensure their dominance over each other. So each time Allah sent any messenger with his guidance and he succeeded in bringing people within his reach under the jurisdiction of kingdom of Allah, soon the kingdom was swamped after the death of the messenger by those seeking better life and the followers of the messengers failed to cope with situations they created for themselves by opening the gates for outsider far too much. Once people within the kingdom became slack in implementing the deen of Allah properly and also let outsiders in, the kingdom turned into a chaotic place proving full of opportunities for ignorant, illiterate and uneducated people who then spread in the kingdom of Allah the very beliefs and rituals they were used to. This handed over perfect opportunities for imperialists to hatch so many conspiracies within the kingdom that it fell apart and became what it was not supposed to be ie an empire based upon personal gains at the expense of proper human community.

    This is the history told in the quran if we interpret the stories related to messengers of Allah and the kingdoms they brought about. One cannot understand the quran by mere random verses and their explanations by mullahs. For example, ask yourselves what happen to kingdom of prophet sulaimaan that was brought about by prophet david? SHAITAAN is not a supernatural magical figurehead but leadership who stand in opposition to guidance of Allah. SIHR does not mean magic the way mullahs tells us but merely covering of actual thing or masking it with something else to make it appear as the real thing which it is not. There is nothing in the quran about supernatural events other than the acts of creation and revelation. Make beliefs and useless rituals were invented and promoted by rulers, money lenders and mullahs to try to fool uneducated masses so that they could enslave them and keep them under their sway for use and abuse at their will. This is why people always conspired against the messengers of Allah and his missionaries in order to stop them from spreading the actual message of Allah which is for ensuring well being of mankind.

    When people will start looking at works of opponents of deen of Allah in that context all fights between people will start making sense as to who is doing what and why. In order to try and confuse people, some try their best to show deen of islam is actually a man made thing. The question is, how do they do that? They do that by telling us all sorts of nonsense eg they tell us islam is not a deen but a mazhab. This is most severe attack one can ever carry out against deen of islam because merely by saying islam is not a deen they are telling us people do not need guidance of Allah for knowing how they should live properly in this world. This idea therefore flies straight into the face of deen of islam and its actual followers yet those who claim to be muslims remain unaware of how damaging this idea of islam being a mazhab means for humanity as a whole. It means fights between people can never come to an end ever because if people are allowed to live as they like by each other then there cannot be any way out of this personal gains based way of life at the expense of each other. Something people in position of power want the most to continue for as long as they can help it.

    This is why anyone who accepts islam as a mazhab instead of deen is actually playing in hands of users and abusers of humanity. This is why it is a more dangerous way to attack islam than actually attacking muslims with dangerous weapons. It is because in this case one is telling people that harmful and destructive actions are good because they are ordered by Allah when the actual fact is Allah does not tell people to do anything that is useless or harmful for mankind. This is why people who have nothing at all to do with Allah and humanity support religions because they give them opportunities to carry on with whatever they are doing ie using and abusing mankind in the very name of Allah. This explanation should help people see why rulers, money lenders and mullahs do what they do and how they do it with help of their touts and supporters.

    It has been explained already how messengers and missionaries of deen of Allah learn and teach deen of Allah and that is why they end up creating a kingdom based upon deen of Allah. A clear proof that each and every person in the kingdom of Allah knows the book of Allah because otherwise people cannot bring about the kingdom according to the book. None can form an organisation or a kingdom nor can one regulate one without having some sort of law. Even the tribal people had tribal customs to live by and they taught these customs to their future generations. A clear proof that no population can live without some sort of common code of life no mater how simple or how complex and sophisticated. A clear proof that messengers of Allah also brought about proper communities and kingdoms as per revealed programs, constitutions and laws for accomplishing set out goals according to provided guidelines.

    So anyone who thinks islam is not a deen but a mazhab is far far away from proper understanding of the message in the quran. Likewise anyone who has little or no proper understanding of the quran can never understand anything else that is attributed to Allah or any of his messengers or any of his people. It is because if a solid foundation is not there then there is no criterion for judging anything else. The real world realities and revelations of Allah provide one with solid foundation that one can examine for oneself. That is the only base upon which one can and should build the proper human community.

    This is why one will be very foolish to leave the solid foundation aside and try to build a proper human community on foundation of personality cults which themselves are not based on anything solid at all. This is why when Allah declared prophet ibraheem a good example to follow in following the commandments of Allah when he asked the same for his children he was told very clearly that only those people can be followed who actually follow the rule of law of Allah. So the main thing is not following of Abraham but what he followed as his imaam ie guidance of Allah. Nowhere Allah points out anyone as an exemplary character in his entirety because even messengers of Allah are not free of human errors. People are only supposed to support messengers of Allah so far as they are doing anything by the book of Allah. Way of life of messengers of Allah was not set-up by themselves but was told to them by Allah and it was up to them to follow it faithfully and they did except where they ended up making odd mistakes due to being human beings. This is why all concepts that people have created around personalities in the name of deen of islam are false. As soon as people will educate themselves properly about deen of islam they will give up all their nonsense beliefs and useless rituals and start doing what the quran actually requires of people to do.

    People who attack concept of deen of islam only do so because they want to replace it with personality cults so that they could then use names of those people to add wrong things to deen of islam and thereby get their way. This is why beliefs of certain people are taken as guaranty of true islam whereas people are supposed to take the book of Allah as the criterion after it has been interpreted free of all contradictions as the book itself claims. Likewise when people opposing the book could not find any way to undermine the book of Allah they tried to attack the book by inventing other stories and mixing them up with existing stories about the prophets that were originally completely true in order to try to make them look credible. The same idea was expanded later in books of fiqh. This is why people invented five schools of thought in the names of people none of whom told people to follow them. It were rulers, money lenders and mullahs who tried to move people away from the quran by keeping them ignorant, illiterate and uneducated with backing of state machinery as is always the case when people in positions of power decide to use and abuse others at will.

    From all these explanations in this thread and elsewhere it should be very clear for all who have sense that not only the quran but all revelations sent by Allah were not only memorised by people but were also written down by them as well. This is why Allah did not start sending revelations till people had discovered reading and writing. Revelation of Allah only began when man was able to think at higher level ie man became self aware and aware of realities around him and sort guidance because he became a thinking human being. Story of adam and his people told in the quran is actually a true story but it has not been explained properly by ignorant mullahs because they are hardly that learned people. One can see how much self aware these people are never mind about their awareness about realities of real world. This is why anyone who thinks deen of islam is that which is told by mullahs only exposes his own level of ignorance about deen of islam.

    Word quran does means recitation but not just recitation as mullahs will have us believe. Word QUR-AAN comes from root QAAF, RAA and ALIF. This root revolves around concept of purposeful collection or gathering of something. Letter QAAF means monkey or anything like a monkey in some sense, letter RAA means head or anything like head in some sense and letter ALIF means head of an ox. So if we expand on meanings of each of these letters one can see we could end up with so many meanings of this root. This is why it has meanings like monthly periods, sperm collection in a womb, sect, faction, group, a generation of people, reading from a written text, recitation from memory of written text, a written collection of some information for preservation, contents gathered in something in some form, time span, cycle, appointed time, to become with child, to gather together, to hold, to hold in, to know, to learn, to cause or enable something, discourse, the entire text of the quran, reading, chief, manager, managed, power, authority, staff, stick, to imitate, to mimic, to meddle, to fool , to tinker, to be agile, to be mischievous, to make fool of etc etc.

    Word AL-QUR-AAN is a very comprehensive word. It means each and everything that serves its purpose in one or another sense. For short we can ask, why is the quran called AL-QURAAN? It is called AL-QURAAN because it is a recitation or proclamation or reading or writing or information or guidance or manifesto or program or constitution etc etc or any of these or all of these etc etc. In fact the whole text of the quran is merely explanation of what quran or deen of islam is. It all depends upon how detailed information one is looking for about the quran or deen of islam. This is what we find in dictionaries that people expand words as much as it serves their purpose and not that words stated in the dictionaries do not have any more meanings to add to these dictionaries.

    How people try to distort deen of islam? They distort deen of islam in different ways eg by bringing in concepts that are merely make beliefs and by bringing in rituals that are useless.

    Let us take the make belief that Allah sent his messengers with miracles. Can anyone clearly define what a miracle is? No. Can anyone prove that miracles are necessary for proving existence of Allah or that any claimant of messengership from Allah is in actual fact a messenger sent by Allah? No. Why not? Because if miracles were necessary for proving existence of Allah or messengership of a claimant of messengership of Allah then where is any miracle for doing that for people of today? Not only that but there was no miracles for any people who did not witness them and particularly the later generatrions. If jesus showed some miracles to some people in some place then who showed any miracles to other people in other places particularly after jesus? Today all people are trying to prove existence of God only through whatever texts and books they have. What does that tell us? It tells us very clearly that miracles were never needed to prove anything but this concept was invented by rulers, money lenders and mullahs to make fools of people and they succeeded in doing that till today because ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking people still believe all sorts of nonsense they are told by their ignorant and foolish mullahs. This will keep happening till people educate themselves out of their ignorance.

    Who invented this false belief and spread it among ignorant masses and why? It was work of joint groups of people whose interest this idea could serve ie rulers, money lenders and mullahs and they invented this idea because they did not want people to accept guidance of Allah just as they do not want them to do even today and that is why they are spreading all sorts of nonsense to keep people away from serious thinking about life. If a people can go to so many wars to try to prevent people from going to deen of Allah then why will they not by all other means under their control eg establishment, mass media etc etc.

    How could they keep people away from deen of Allah by idea of miracles? To explain this point let us use an example of a child. Suppose you take away a child of someone after his birth and keep telling him I am you father or mother till he is grown up, will the child ever know his real parents even if they were sitting next to him? No. It is because the child has no reason to miss his real parents because he thinks he is with his real parents already. Only if he finds out that people he is living with are not his real parents that he will look at all other people thinking any of them could be his real parents. Likewise if people are indoctrinated with wrong ideas then those idea unless challenged a person cannot find out what the reality may be. So if a people are indoctrinated with idea of miracles or supernatural human beings then unless people are challenged they will always be expecting such kind of man from God as his messenger and if anyone came and just read out things out of some book they will not accept him as a messenger of God. This is how rulers, money lenders and mullahs made fool of people by setting up personality cults in order to bar message of God in the name of God. It was a very clever idea because people always had problem understanding it for it was worth ie it was fraud.

    This is why the quran explains things to help people understand how things work in natural world naturally not supernaturally. The quran only puts two things as acts of Allah ie the creation of the universe and revelation of his message. This is why the quran emphasises the need for education and thinking, observation and proper understanding of things in so many verses. The explanation given here clearly explain that jesus was not a fatherless child, nor he did any miracles attributed to him and that all such claims related to jesus that involve supernatural acts are false according to the quran and people who are saying wrong things about jesus or for that mater any other messenger of Allah are in serious trouble with Allah and humanity.

  46. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mughal View Post
    The most important point people who claim to be muslims need to be aware of is, islam is deen not mazhab. The only people who accept islam as mazhab are rulers, money lenders, mullahs, their touts and supporters.

    No messenger was sent by Allah but he worked for establishing deen of Allah not any mazhab. Mazhab is personal for individual but deen by its very nature demands society. The very idea that Allah sent messengers to guide mankind means that Allah wanted people to stick together for well being of each other as a starting point. This is why Allah created people into human relationships as interdependent so deen of islam is a program for mankind for accomplishing certain goals stated in the quran and there are also guidelines according to which these goals are to achieved. The quran is a foundation for a constitution and laws for forming a proper human community and bringing about a kingdom and maintaining it for proper development and progress of humanity so that it could thereafter accomplish other higher goals. This is why there is concept of ummah in deen of islam as well as of a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah.

    So people who do not accept islam as a deen are not accepted muslims by the quran because they do not accept the fact that law of Allah is supreme so they do not live by rule of law of Allah as a proper human community and instead live by rule of law of people by accepting the concept of man has right to rule over another man. This concept is all about divisions in humanity due to which there are rivalries and animosities therefore hatred and wars. It is because a way of life whereby one man rules over another is based upon personal gains at the expense of each other as opposed to living for well being of each other as a proper human community according to guidance provided by Allah. This is what divides people into advantaged and disadvantaged or rich and poor or strong and weak groups etc etc. The reason that divides occurs is because people do not use their God given abilities and things as they should. Since they misuse each and everything provided by Allah they end up hurting each other instead of ensuring well being of each other.

    This is why Allah provided mankind with guidance and some people accept that guidance and support it while others reject and oppose it so mankind become divided into two camps a)muslims and b)kufaar. This leads to permanent struggle between people belonging to two main groups of people. Since people who work for well being of humanity do as told but their opponents do as they like therefore the human world is not the way it is supposed to be. Since there is constant struggle between two groups of people who are following opposite ways of life therefore people do what they think will ensure dominance of their way of life over any other way way of life.

    From here begins all sorts of warfare between people to ensure their dominance over each other. So each time Allah sent any messenger with his guidance and he succeeded in bringing people within his reach under the jurisdiction of kingdom of Allah, soon the kingdom was swamped after the death of the messenger by those seeking better life and the followers of the messengers failed to cope with situations they created for themselves by opening the gates for outsider far too much. Once people within the kingdom became slack in implementing the deen of Allah properly and also let outsiders in, the kingdom turned into a chaotic place proving full of opportunities for ignorant, illiterate and uneducated people who then spread in the kingdom of Allah the very beliefs and rituals they were used to. This handed over perfect opportunities for imperialists to hatch so many conspiracies within the kingdom that it fell apart and became what it was not supposed to be ie an empire based upon personal gains at the expense of proper human community.

    This is the history told in the quran if we interpret the stories related to messengers of Allah and the kingdoms they brought about. One cannot understand the quran by mere random verses and their explanations by mullahs. For example, ask yourselves what happen to kingdom of prophet sulaimaan that was brought about by prophet david? SHAITAAN is not a supernatural magical figurehead but leadership who stand in opposition to guidance of Allah. SIHR does not mean magic the way mullahs tells us but merely covering of actual thing or masking it with something else to make it appear as the real thing which it is not. There is nothing in the quran about supernatural events other than the acts of creation and revelation. Make beliefs and useless rituals were invented and promoted by rulers, money lenders and mullahs to try to fool uneducated masses so that they could enslave them and keep them under their sway for use and abuse at their will. This is why people always conspired against the messengers of Allah and his missionaries in order to stop them from spreading the actual message of Allah which is for ensuring well being of mankind.

    When people will start looking at works of opponents of deen of Allah in that context all fights between people will start making sense as to who is doing what and why. In order to try and confuse people, some try their best to show deen of islam is actually a man made thing. The question is, how do they do that? They do that by telling us all sorts of nonsense eg they tell us islam is not a deen but a mazhab. This is most severe attack one can ever carry out against deen of islam because merely by saying islam is not a deen they are telling us people do not need guidance of Allah for knowing how they should live properly in this world. This idea therefore flies straight into the face of deen of islam and its actual followers yet those who claim to be muslims remain unaware of how damaging this idea of islam being a mazhab means for humanity as a whole. It means fights between people can never come to an end ever because if people are allowed to live as they like by each other then there cannot be any way out of this personal gains based way of life at the expense of each other. Something people in position of power want the most to continue for as long as they can help it.

    This is why anyone who accepts islam as a mazhab instead of deen is actually playing in hands of users and abusers of humanity. This is why it is a more dangerous way to attack islam than actually attacking muslims with dangerous weapons. It is because in this case one is telling people that harmful and destructive actions are good because they are ordered by Allah when the actual fact is Allah does not tell people to do anything that is useless or harmful for mankind. This is why people who have nothing at all to do with Allah and humanity support religions because they give them opportunities to carry on with whatever they are doing ie using and abusing mankind in the very name of Allah. This explanation should help people see why rulers, money lenders and mullahs do what they do and how they do it with help of their touts and supporters.

    It has been explained already how messengers and missionaries of deen of Allah learn and teach deen of Allah and that is why they end up creating a kingdom based upon deen of Allah. A clear proof that each and every person in the kingdom of Allah knows the book of Allah because otherwise people cannot bring about the kingdom according to the book. None can form an organisation or a kingdom nor can one regulate one without having some sort of law. Even the tribal people had tribal customs to live by and they taught these customs to their future generations. A clear proof that no population can live without some sort of common code of life no mater how simple or how complex and sophisticated. A clear proof that messengers of Allah also brought about proper communities and kingdoms as per revealed programs, constitutions and laws for accomplishing set out goals according to provided guidelines.

    So anyone who thinks islam is not a deen but a mazhab is far far away from proper understanding of the message in the quran. Likewise anyone who has little or no proper understanding of the quran can never understand anything else that is attributed to Allah or any of his messengers or any of his people. It is because if a solid foundation is not there then there is no criterion for judging anything else. The real world realities and revelations of Allah provide one with solid foundation that one can examine for oneself. That is the only base upon which one can and should build the proper human community.

    This is why one will be very foolish to leave the solid foundation aside and try to build a proper human community on foundation of personality cults which themselves are not based on anything solid at all. This is why when Allah declared prophet ibraheem a good example to follow in following the commandments of Allah when he asked the same for his children he was told very clearly that only those people can be followed who actually follow the rule of law of Allah. So the main thing is not following of Abraham but what he followed as his imaam ie guidance of Allah. Nowhere Allah points out anyone as an exemplary character in his entirety because even messengers of Allah are not free of human errors. People are only supposed to support messengers of Allah so far as they are doing anything by the book of Allah. Way of life of messengers of Allah was not set-up by themselves but was told to them by Allah and it was up to them to follow it faithfully and they did except where they ended up making odd mistakes due to being human beings. This is why all concepts that people have created around personalities in the name of deen of islam are false. As soon as people will educate themselves properly about deen of islam they will give up all their nonsense beliefs and useless rituals and start doing what the quran actually requires of people to do.

    People who attack concept of deen of islam only do so because they want to replace it with personality cults so that they could then use names of those people to add wrong things to deen of islam and thereby get their way. This is why beliefs of certain people are taken as guaranty of true islam whereas people are supposed to take the book of Allah as the criterion after it has been interpreted free of all contradictions as the book itself claims. Likewise when people opposing the book could not find any way to undermine the book of Allah they tried to attack the book by inventing other stories and mixing them up with existing stories about the prophets that were originally completely true in order to try to make them look credible. The same idea was expanded later in books of fiqh. This is why people invented five schools of thought in the names of people none of whom told people to follow them. It were rulers, money lenders and mullahs who tried to move people away from the quran by keeping them ignorant, illiterate and uneducated with backing of state machinery as is always the case when people in positions of power decide to use and abuse others at will.

    From all these explanations in this thread and elsewhere it should be very clear for all who have sense that not only the quran but all revelations sent by Allah were not only memorised by people but were also written down by them as well. This is why Allah did not start sending revelations till people had discovered reading and writing. Revelation of Allah only began when man was able to think at higher level ie man became self aware and aware of realities around him and sort guidance because he became a thinking human being. Story of adam and his people told in the quran is actually a true story but it has not been explained properly by ignorant mullahs because they are hardly that learned people. One can see how much self aware these people are never mind about their awareness about realities of real world. This is why anyone who thinks deen of islam is that which is told by mullahs only exposes his own level of ignorance about deen of islam.

    Word quran does means recitation but not just recitation as mullahs will have us believe. Word QUR-AAN comes from root QAAF, RAA and ALIF. This root revolves around concept of purposeful collection or gathering of something. Letter QAAF means monkey or anything like a monkey in some sense, letter RAA means head or anything like head in some sense and letter ALIF means head of an ox. So if we expand on meanings of each of these letters one can see we could end up with so many meanings of this root. This is why it has meanings like monthly periods, sperm collection in a womb, sect, faction, group, a generation of people, reading from a written text, recitation from memory of written text, a written collection of some information for preservation, contents gathered in something in some form, time span, cycle, appointed time, to become with child, to gather together, to hold, to hold in, to know, to learn, to cause or enable something, discourse, the entire text of the quran, reading, chief, manager, managed, power, authority, staff, stick, to imitate, to mimic, to meddle, to fool , to tinker, to be agile, to be mischievous, to make fool of etc etc.

    Word AL-QUR-AAN is a very comprehensive word. It means each and everything that serves its purpose in one or another sense. For short we can ask, why is the quran called AL-QURAAN? It is called AL-QURAAN because it is a recitation or proclamation or reading or writing or information or guidance or manifesto or program or constitution etc etc or any of these or all of these etc etc. In fact the whole text of the quran is merely explanation of what quran or deen of islam is. It all depends upon how detailed information one is looking for about the quran or deen of islam. This is what we find in dictionaries that people expand words as much as it serves their purpose and not that words stated in the dictionaries do not have any more meanings to add to these dictionaries.

    How people try to distort deen of islam? They distort deen of islam in different ways eg by bringing in concepts that are merely make beliefs and by bringing in rituals that are useless.

    Let us take the make belief that Allah sent his messengers with miracles. Can anyone clearly define what a miracle is? No. Can anyone prove that miracles are necessary for proving existence of Allah or that any claimant of messengership from Allah is in actual fact a messenger sent by Allah? No. Why not? Because if miracles were necessary for proving existence of Allah or messengership of a claimant of messengership of Allah then where is any miracle for doing that for people of today? Not only that but there was no miracles for any people who did not witness them and particularly the later generatrions. If jesus showed some miracles to some people in some place then who showed any miracles to other people in other places particularly after jesus? Today all people are trying to prove existence of God only through whatever texts and books they have. What does that tell us? It tells us very clearly that miracles were never needed to prove anything but this concept was invented by rulers, money lenders and mullahs to make fools of people and they succeeded in doing that till today because ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking people still believe all sorts of nonsense they are told by their ignorant and foolish mullahs. This will keep happening till people educate themselves out of their ignorance.

    Who invented this false belief and spread it among ignorant masses and why? It was work of joint groups of people whose interest this idea could serve ie rulers, money lenders and mullahs and they invented this idea because they did not want people to accept guidance of Allah just as they do not want them to do even today and that is why they are spreading all sorts of nonsense to keep people away from serious thinking about life. If a people can go to so many wars to try to prevent people from going to deen of Allah then why will they not by all other means under their control eg establishment, mass media etc etc.

    How could they keep people away from deen of Allah by idea of miracles? To explain this point let us use an example of a child. Suppose you take away a child of someone after his birth and keep telling him I am you father or mother till he is grown up, will the child ever know his real parents even if they were sitting next to him? No. It is because the child has no reason to miss his real parents because he thinks he is with his real parents already. Only if he finds out that people he is living with are not his real parents that he will look at all other people thinking any of them could be his real parents. Likewise if people are indoctrinated with wrong ideas then those idea unless challenged a person cannot find out what the reality may be. So if a people are indoctrinated with idea of miracles or supernatural human beings then unless people are challenged they will always be expecting such kind of man from God as his messenger and if anyone came and just read out things out of some book they will not accept him as a messenger of God. This is how rulers, money lenders and mullahs made fool of people by setting up personality cults in order to bar message of God in the name of God. It was a very clever idea because people always had problem understanding it for it was worth ie it was fraud.

    This is why the quran explains things to help people understand how things work in natural world naturally not supernaturally. The quran only puts two things as acts of Allah ie the creation of the universe and revelation of his message. This is why the quran emphasises the need for education and thinking, observation and proper understanding of things in so many verses. The explanation given here clearly explain that jesus was not a fatherless child, nor he did any miracles attributed to him and that all such claims related to jesus that involve supernatural acts are false according to the quran and people who are saying wrong things about jesus or for that mater any other messenger of Allah are in serious trouble with Allah and humanity.
    You put 20 Paragraphs in one post;)

    I think educating posters in smaller doses will be a lot more effective. If everyone else is not having this problem then apologies. I was trying to read all posts here because thread was very educational.
    Last edited by Buffet; 6th November 2014 at 15:27.


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  47. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    You put 20 Paragraphs in one post;)

    I think educating posters in smaller doses will be a lot more effective. If everyone else is not having this problem then apologies. I was trying to read all posts here because thread was very educational.
    yes, i get discouraged by the length of the posts by Mughal, so cant make myself to read them. although he is very sincere and polite and writes with conviction. would love to follow him on twitter though, his tweets would read like "msg 1 of 5000".

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    Quote Originally Posted by CricketCartoons View Post
    So basically syeds are descendants of Imam Ali. I thought a Syed meant descendant of the Prophet Muhammad ( in that case Bibi Fatima would be a syed, and the descendants of Imam Ali and Bibi Fatima would be all Mirzas).
    I knew a syed from Lucknow. He was Shia, claimed to be Pathan and looked part African. Not sure what route his ancestry would have taken to end up with such an unlikely combination of heritage.


    They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by moumotta View Post
    I knew a syed from Lucknow. He was Shia, claimed to be Pathan and looked part African. Not sure what route his ancestry would have taken to end up with such an unlikely combination of heritage.
    You would have to look at his family tree to see where those features came from. Probably a male Syed married an african, and then they ended up living in KPK


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    Do nonmuslims who criticise the quran know how to study the quran properly? Do people who claim to be muslims know how to study the quran properly? Are nonmuslim scholars only responding to nonsense of muslims which they take for deen of islam or do they have anything original to contribute to the proper understanding of the message of the quran?

    My question to all such scholars is, please tell me what are the very basic requirements for understanding anything at all? I ask this question because both muslims and nonmuslims claim that the text of the quran is nothing more than a jumble of verses that make no sense on their own. Is there anything in this universe that anyone can make any sense of without pondering over it? Was the universe and were the things in it there before a person was born? My answer is yes. Was that person aware of all that he saw with his own eyes, heard it with his own ears, smelled it with his own nose, tasted it with his own tongue and felt it with his own sense of touch? Was he born with proper understanding of all this? No, not at all. If that is the fact then how did one come to make sense of all things that he has become aware of so far? The day scholars come to realise this fact they will come to know that the quranic text is not a collection of random verses. The universe was a perfectly working order complete system before our birth but we only came to know about it once we used our own brains and senses as well as bodily mechanisms to explore the universal realities to make sense of them. It is we who began to see connection between things after we started observing and doing things with whatever we could get our hands on. This is how gradually we built our information bank about the universal realities and our brains by constructing, de-constructing and reconstructing that information started making sense of things. The process is exactly the same when it comes to the quran. As anyone comes across anything the very first time, things seem disconnected or remote and random till one starts making sense of them, so the quran is not any exception in this respect.

    To understand anything, to begin with we only need brain language which is all preprogrammed just like a computer comes ready to process information. If we did not have preprogrammed brains to a degree we will not be able to process any data that we sensed with our senses. Imagine putting on windows on a computer that had no cpu=central processing unit. More precisely the ALU arithmetic logic unit that acts as a cpu. All this is called hardware. The brain is a biological computer if you like. That is biologically hard wired ready to make use of its senses and to process any information it gets through them as a mechanism for stimulus or a window to outside world.

    Brain keeps collecting information through its senses but it then wants to act on this information so it uses its body mechanisms to express itself or connects to outside world to influence it the way it wants. This is how comes about interaction between things in the environment one is born in. This interaction forced people to communicate with each other using additional languages basically body language and sign language and then that led to spoken language as sounds made by people began to take form of codes for real world realities as their names or names of their actions etc.

    Unless people therefore understand the origin and development as well as use of spoken and written language they cannot understand anything about the origin and development of revelation of Allah through out times and places or origin and development of humanity itself.

    This should leave one in no doubt at all as to why so called scholars both muslims and nonmuslims fail to make proper sense of the text of the quran. It is because the language provides the very foundational context of any spoken or written word in any book not just the quran.

    The truth is both muslims and nonmuslims scholars seriously lack knowledge about deen of islam and due to that all people are busy killing each other due to animal behaviour or worse.

    From my above explanation it should be very clear how important communication is between people and therefore the importance of language becomes very much self evident. Now think about how a human baby learns a human language. Once a baby is born into this world his brain and senses begin to work according to environment of this universe so he keeps observing things as they happen all around him and so data keeps gathering in his head as time goes on. He tries to make sense of things as much as he can at each moment of his awareness. He begins to see that people and things around him react to each other through body movements as well as some sounds. After long period of quiet observation he tries to act the same way in order to copy others in their movements as well as their sounds. He begins to see that others also react to him as he makes some moves or sounds so he keeps remembering these little things and that way builds up a bank of codes in his mind for movements and sounds as words. From this it should be clear that people only come to know what they have picked up through their observations and nothing beyond till they develop capability of thinking at higher level. Not only that it also makes it amply clear that thinking does not start all by itself rather there has to be some triggering factors that draw attention towards something to think about. So learning is all about something drawing attention of people and then people exploring the thing towards which their attention is drawn. If attention of a person is not drawn to something in some way ever, one will never become aware of it ever.

    This should explain how people learn a language and why they speak only that language to which their attention has been drawn and do not speak any other language to which they have not been exposed. Take this to origin of human species ie how people invented language in sense of listening and talking as well as reading and writing. Human species came about from tree of life just like other species of living things and developed with time. They started as another species of animals in human shape and gradually developed various way of communication among themselves through observing other things that were already there. Originally humans were driven by their drives and reflexive behaviour due to their very limited thinking capacity due to their limited observations and life experiences. However as they built on their experiences generation after generation they began to think first and act later instead of acting first and thinking later. Just as a human baby acts first and then thinks if he is forced to do so by some sort of reaction to his action so original humans gradually became a thinking people who began to reason things out just as babies gradually learn to reason things. This is why the wider and the deeper the life experience one has the better one's making sense of things is.

    Since we know how human language came about and developed the question arises, how did people give meanings to words? Originally people had certain imaginations in their heads about things they observed so there were no words but then they made bodily gestures to each other and learned to code them in their minds and that helped them to code sounds as well. Any bodily gesture made by anyone meant the whole things not just one word as we know it today. If one raised his hand to show someone I am going to beat you up that is what it meant by raising of hand that way. If one showed by gesture of hands that I am going to catch you, that is what it meant by that gesture. But as soon as sounds became codified the bodily gestures took form of words the same bodily gestures were translated into meaningful words that made sense to people among themselves. The sound language came about because people wanted to explain to each other things they could not explain by bodily gestures alone eg for preservation purposes for future generations. The same urge led mankind to finding a way of writing down the information. This is how people ended up drawing pictures to explain events they experienced. Pictorial writing gave way to letters and letters were modified again and again to refine them for ease of writing. Likewise spoken language went through modifications for sake of refinement or precision. If we go back to how baby starts talking using very same word for each and everything but then as time goes on he develops capability of saying more and more words to say what he wants to say. With time he builds up vocabulary and so did human beings originally generation after generation. As we can see each and every step in human development was driven by need or usefulness. In other words all this helped mankind to survive and progress because knowledge and skills help people get through life easier as compared to those who remain ignorant and unskilled.

    Originally people drew pictures of things as a way of writing down what they wanted to say eg they drew picture of a head of an ox or a bull to represent power or authority. They drew picture of a tent to represent family or a household, picture of water to represent sea or a human head to represent chief and so on and so forth. If we look into arabic letters they are meaningful words eg ALIF means bull and it represent power and authority or stick, BAA means house because originally it was pronounced BAAIT in hebrew where arabs got it from. What is known as RAA in arabic was RAISH in hebrew or in arabic RAAS=head or chief. Likewise letter AIN means eye both in hebrew as well arabic. Since all letters in hebrew are meaningful words so they are in arabic. The root system also originates from hebrew and ancestral languages. In root system a few letters are taken as a unit or set or root which is given the meanings based upon individual letters as well as sum total of meanings of all letters. This is why each root has various concrete meanings as well as derived meanings because originally each meaning was a label given to a reality in real world eg BAA=BAAIT=house and house is a concrete reality then word BAAIT itself has three letter root ie BAA, YAA and TAA, so these meanings keep on expanding with each extra word and its combination of letters. YAA means YAD both in hebrew and arabic and it means hand. This is how letters were attached meanings in forms of roots. Once a letter was given concrete meanings a set of conceptual meanings also came about based upon what a things was and what it did or what it was useful for or was used for or the way it worked or served a purpose. For example, letter AIN means eye but what is eye and what it does or is used for is also part of meanings of letter ain. This is why in arabic a root can have many meanings not just one or two. Now that things about origin and development of language are explained in detail it is easy for anyone who has knowledge to see how many objections people raise against the quran based on lack of understanding of language as to how it came about, developed and was used and as well as how words got their meanings or how language works in actual fact etc.

    Let us now turn to the quran. People ask, why Allah does not explain each and everything in detail in the quran? It is because Allah had a purpose in his mind and had a plan for mankind due to which he created people and the rest of the universe and sent his revelations for mankind to live by so that purpose and plan of Allah comes to its fulfilment. All this is explained in detail in the quran the final revelation of Allah for the mankind. Whenever anyone does anything one has some reason or purpose for doing it. Allah created mankind and the universe and sent his revelations because he is a living being and wanted to express himself. The only way he decided to express himself was through creation and revelation. Since he wanted to express himself he decided to create mankind for appreciating his creator out of his own choice and that is why humans are taken as special creatures of Allah unlike all other creatures.

    Since humans have been created with ability to choose to do things at a greater level than all other creatures therefore Allah could not fully program people to be like fully programmed robots instead he had to program them to a degree and leave them to program themselves for the rest of things that is why he gave people brains, senses, bodies, provisions and revelations to learn and do as they please. This is why the quran only contains information as much as it serves purpose and plan of creator of the universe and nothing more than that. It is the implication of what one does that binds one to his plan and purpose and so Allah himself bound himself by this purpose and plan and nothing can make Allah change his mind because if he changes his mind then his purpose and plan will fail and that is impossible ie plan of Allah cannot fail. No one forced Allah to take on this responsibility upon himself but he decided to do all this so he will go through with it no matter what. Since Allah has a purpose and a plan to fulfil so it is not possible that Allah should do anything that ruins the whole thing for him.

    Allah is capable of a lots of things but only as a God just as man is capable of doing things but only as a human being and this is why the quran is the way it is. What do I mean by that? I mean that the quran is a limited text in a language that was not yet fully developed. Why Allah had to send the quran in an ancient language and why he chose arabic in particular for the revelation of the quran as his final message for humnaity? It is because arabic was the only language that could serve purpose of divine revelation in this age. Why? Because it was a root based language and that made it very flexible for meanings of words so Allah could express his thoughts in a human language that was so flexible in its meaning therefore it could accommodate thoughts of Allah for guidance of mankind. Not only that but all other root based languages were not as wide spread as arabic at the time and since then. This is what made it right for the purpose of Allah. But why Allah did not wait till arabic language developed to its fullest? It is because a fully developed language becomes very precise therefore needs more text for explaining the very same thing because it has more words for more concepts. Let us go back to development of a human baby. A human baby begins with less words to tell many things and as he grows with time he gets to know more and more words for telling about more and more things. However his ratio of words and thoughts gradually reduces ie he uses more number of words for expressing lesser number of thoughts and that is what leads to precision use of language. So what the baby told us using a word or two now he can tell us in many words. His parents had no problem understanding him because they had learned to make sense of what he used to say when he was speaking less number of words. So people who learn things can understand them and those who do not bother to make sense of things they do not understand them regardless the language is under developed or over developed, course or fine.

    If the quran was revealed in a fully developed language its text ought to increase many folds than the text of the quran we have. Imagine Allah revealing a huge encyclopaedia containing each and everything we humans ever needed, could we make any use of it? No, why not? Because human brain is not that capable to cope with that amount of information. As things are in this universe the way it works, it will have been impossible for people to copy information and share it with each other or to preserve it for coming generations or to carry it about etc etc. So even though Allah was capable of sending people a huge book, people were not able to cope with it due to human limitations. This is why people need to look at things in the context they are explained in the quran by Allah himself instead of telling Allah what he should or should not have done. This is not for people to decide but right of Allah because when Allah decided things people were not around to give him their suggestions. Moreover if Allah followed our suggestions instead of doing what he wanted to do, this universe will still be worked upon by Allah because each person will have told Allah many different ways to create things, so plan of Allah will still not have seen the light of the day.

    This explanation should make clear to anyone with knowledge why knowing things about language is so important because then one can clearly see implications of attacking the quran from the wrong angles eg why Allah did not explain things in more detail etc.

    The study about origin and development of language tells us that words have various meanings and that those meanings are based upon solid foundation beyond a shadow of doubt. This deals a fatal blow to criticism of the quran by those people who say that muslims are seeing things in the quran which were not there before after they have been discovered by scientists? It shows that if people who claim to be scientist do not have knowledge about the origin and development of language then they can end up making false claims about something they know nothing about. This is how looking at things in their proper context reveals the truth beyond a shadow of doubt. Take for example letter AIN in arabic. It means eye but it also means a spring why? Because when eye cries it sheds tears and that is why it also means a source of water ie water spring or well or pond etc. Moreover the very same letter ain means help or support and that is because eye is very much helpful to a person who uses it to see things to find his way to things or around things. This is why to guard or to keep an eye on things and likewise many other meanings come about as a result of a rule whereby meanings of words keep on expanding. On one hand this flexibility in the language helps accommodate various concepts but on the other it also creates a problem that if a word can have so many meanings then how do we choose the right meaning of a word?

    After language based context one has to look at the text on basis of its purpose. For example, if I am going to employ someone to guard a place as a watchman then other meanings of word AIN will fall away and that means I am not talking about a water spring. Likewise if I am lifting something heavy and need help with it then I am not looking for a guard or water spring and that is how context makes things very clear despite a word having so many different meanings due to context of origin and development of language. Likewise when we look at words in the quran we need to keep in mind that we are looking at the quran as a supposed word of Allah. Why do we need to do that? Because the quran so claims ie it tells us it is word of God. Since the quran itself claims to be word of God therefore we have no choice but to examine it for what it claims to be. We cannot investigate something for which we have no claim or accusation or no reason to investigate. Unless there is some case to answer or some accusation or claim about something we have no reason to start an investigation. Only when we have a reason for starting any investigation we will start an investigation. When it comes to the quran, we cannot start an investigate for what it does not claim to be because we can only start an investigation for what it claims to be and since it claims to be word of God so that is the only reason we can start investigating its claim to see if it proves itself true or not. This means anyone trying to prove the quran is not the word of God is looking at things the wrong way round. It is a situation like someone claims he has murdered someone and another person comes along and says no he did not. Now we have two opposite claims but the priority rests with person who claims to have murdered someone.

    So first we will have to ask the person who claims to have murdered someone to bring his evidence and only if he fails in providing one that we may go to the other person to see what is his evidence for claiming he did not murder someone. However if the person who claims to have murdered someone comes up with a credible or irrefutable evidence then the other person is proven wrong who claimed he did not murder someone. This means people who instead of investigating the quran for its claim raise other claims against it but have never been able to properly investigate the quran in the first place to begin with their claims about the quran are not credible at all. To show they have investigated the quran for its truth the first things they will need to know is origin and development of language and then the purpose of revelation of the quran in the context of the quranic text. If a person is unable to show the quran has any model in its text but in actual fact there is a model that can be shown from the quranic text then the case is clear that either the person investigating the quran does not have the tools needed to know how to investigate the quran properly or that one is being deliberately dishonest for one reason or the other better known to oneself.

    What do we need to keep in mind when we investigate the quran for its truth? We need to keep in mind that if the quran is truly word of God then it is talking about things exactly as they are so all meanings of all words need to be taken in that context because God is creator of all things he is talking about in the quran ie he is talking about things from his point of view where he talks from his point of view unless he is quoting others. The other thing we need to keep in our minds is that we are human beings and as human being we do not know facts as they are till we learn about them in detail through our own research and exploration. So it is a matter of fact that we may not know actual facts about things because we may not have learned them yet therefore we will not be able to make proper sense of things we never learned but the quran talks about them. So if we do not know things about things then we cannot be certain in expressing our opinions about them till we have come to know them. If we say something is right or wrong without knowing it then that is not the right way to do things. For example, Allah talks in the quran about human beings in detail but to know what Allah is saying we also need to reach our own understandings about human beings through our own research and exploration or we will not know what Allah is talking about if we are not familiar with things he is talking about.

    The question is, have we carried out our own research and exploration as to what human beings are so that we could make sense of what Allah is exactly talking about when he talks about human beings? Allah talks in the quran in detail about human society, politics, economics etc etc but if we do not know anything much about any of these subject matters then how can we claim we know what the quran is talking about? Likewise Allah talks in the quran in detail about philosophy of science and philosophy of history but do we know what philosophy of science and philosophy history is about? Allah talks in the quran in detail about his program, goals and guidelines for mankind but do we know anything about all this? Allah talks about the universe and things in it in detail but have we carried out any research and exploration to know the universe and things in it? He talks about constitution and laws for mankind but do we know anything about them? Allah talks about organisation and regulation of human society but have we ourselves properly learned anything about organisation and regulation or have we managed to organise and regulate ourselves properly as a proper human community? So who has investigated the quranic text properly in detail to reach a proper conclusion one way or the other about the quran?

    All this explanation should show very clearly to people of knowledge whether anyone has investigated the quran properly ever since its revelation after the messenger of Allah passed away. To be able to answer questions about deen of islam one has to know the quran properly and one cannot know the quran properly till one has reasonable grasp over idea of origin of language, how it got its concepts therefore meanings. It is because the quran was revealed in a particular human language at a particular time in written form as well as in form of reading.

    No mullah has any idea about the origin of language, its development and progress and the relevant implications. This is why almost all translations of the quran are mostly defective because they do not take into account the contexts of the quranic text. Who can say anything for certain about anything if one has no idea what human language itself is? If anyone wants to make sense of the quranic text, one has to look for information outside the box in which so called scholars and mullahs have put people for a very long time now.

    1)Which scholar or mullah do you need to go to for studying origin of language? All you need to do is learn any facts about any language from any people who are expert in knowing and teaching those facts about a language and they do not have to be muslims only or nonmuslims only. In fact they can be atheists or theists or neither.

    2)Which scholar or mullah do you need to go to, to learn about realities of real world? All you need to do is go to people who observe real word realities and explore and carry out research works therefore discover things and inform people about them.

    3)It is a matter of fact that one cannot understand the quran unless one knows facts about the human language and the language used for the quran by Allah. Because it gives us foundational context of the quranic text. It is due to having proper sense of human language that we are able to make sense of realities of our universe in which we are born. It is then that these realities of real world give us secondary foundational context to see what the message of the quran may be. If we do not know things about language or real world realities then we have no way of knowing what words are and what they actually mean. This is why the quran puts emphasis on using our God given brains, senses, bodies and provided things including his revelation properly, otherwise people are nothing more than animals. In fact God himself labels them worse of all the animals.

    4)Only if one has sense of these contexts, the context of the quranic text within itself becomes important not otherwise. Once we have the understanding of the quranic text in these contexts only then we have the context for things attributed to the messenger of Allah as a criterion to see if they are true or false. Once we have all these things properly in their proper contexts we can see what people attributed to people is true or false because then we have the solid criterion to judge things by.

    All this explanation shows that one does not need any scholar or mullah to explain anything at all because learning and doing things is common heritage of humanity. We can learn anything from anyone who knows it. However whatever we learn we have a duty to pass it on to others for ensuring well being of mankind.

    The quranic use of languages helps expand human power of thinking. How does it do it? It does it by using less number of words for expressing more number of concepts and facts. It is because when things are talked about in less detail then the listener has to put pressure on one's own mind to think out what the speaker is talking about and that helps mind expand and become more sophisticated ie the more one tries to figure out things the more human mind expands and becomes more capable of making sense of more things which in turn helps humanity make progress and prosper. Through revelations Allah has been drawing human attention to things so that people are stimulated to explore things and grow both physically and mentally. So the revelations by Allah played a huge role in helping humanity to be what it is though people did not make full use of it so far otherwise world could have been in a much better state than it is.

    To address questions about quranic transmission is also important. The fact is, the quran we have today is the same as the one the messenger of Allah left behind. it is because the transmission of the quran has been flawless. The quran came to us in three different ways independent of each other. In form of written text that has been copied from written copies. In form of memorised words through chain of hufaaz and in form of meanings of the words used in the text. You cannot write the quran out of memory alone particularly uniformly nor memorise it from written text without differences due to nature of the arabic language the way it is due to its origin, development and progress as well as its working. Because there is uniformity in memorised quran as well as there is uniformity in written quranic copies that concretely proves it beyond a shadow of doubt the quran was transmitted flawlessly. It is because the way arabic was written in ancient times people could not memorise the quran as a uniform recitation from their individual writings due to interchangeability in spellings of words and likewise they could not write it from memory as a uniform text due to various ways of writing the same words due to replacement of letters in words due to multiple roots of same words. This is why to claim the quran was not a written down text in the time of the prophet falls flat on its face.

    Anyone who knows about origin of language and its development knows that arabic uses a letter replacement idea in words a lot. It is because arabic is a relatively new language as compared to its sister or ancestral languages such as aramaic, hebrew, ugaritic, phoenician, syriac, akkadian etc. Since arabic comes from other languages so it borrows words from them therefore it ends up using multiple roots to express the very same concept due to transliteration problems between languages. For example, word MAKKAH is also called BAKKAH why? Because these two words arabic borrowed from two or more different languages. It is like word PARAAN and FARAAN. In persian both sounds exists ie P as well as F but in arabic P sound does not exist so the arabs use their own closely resembling sound to P which is F. So while persians say PARAAN arabs say FARAAN. The same is the case with word PAKISTAN ie arabs say BAKISTAN ie they replace P with B.

    This problem exists between languages as a matter of fact. It is also a matter fact that languages have been borrowing from each other heavily. In some cases one language has borrowed from another language directly but in other cases indirectly ie first a word was borrowed by one language so it was modified to suit use of that language and then from that language it was borrowed by another language and was modified to make it suitable for use in that language. So depending on from how many different languages a word has been borrowed by a borrowing language it became pronounced and written in different ways in the very same language that borrowed it and this is the case in case of arabic language as well. In arabic letters like TAA, SAA and TWAA are interchangeable because they sound very close. Likewise letter BAA, FAA, MEEM and WOW are interchangeable. The case is same with letters SEEN and SWAAD or letter ZAAL, ZAA, ZWAAD and ZWAA, ZWAAD however can also be interchanged with letter DAAL because it is also called DWAAD instead of ZWAAD. Same is problem with letter KHAA, QAAF and KAAF. HAA and HAA etc etc. Over a period of time in arabic itself letters and pronunciations became standardised but transliteration problems between different languages remain the same even today. Arabs did not modify their language beyond 28 letters or with HAMZAH 29 letter symbols. The quranic text is based upon that standard. There has been no modification in number of letters since the revelation of the quran. So long as the quran remains in existence and people keep adhering to it, there will not be any modification in arabic language of that nature which changes it completely into a modern language breaking its ties with its past like other languages. However borrowing between arabic and newer languages continues even today and so it continues between other languages as well.

    The purpose of this explanation was to show why arabic has more than one root set for a word in some cases. For example, let us take word KITAAB. It has only one root in arabic ie KAAF, TAA and BAA. However this is not the case with word ISRAA. This word has a few roots ie SEEN, RAA and WOW; SEEN RAA and YAA; SEEN, WOW and RAA; and SEEN, YAA and RAA. In ancient times all arabs moved away from each other so they were not one people living in one and the same place speaking exactly the very same kind of arabic even though originally they come from the very same ancestors. Human race is originally one race that comes from same ancestors but people moved away from each other as their needs and situations or circumstances demanded or dictated. After separating each people kept on inventing more things and words to talk about them so today people have come together again but they speak very many different languages from what they learned from their original ancestors though some of the word we can still make out among all people because they remained unchanged or suffered less change despite transliteration. Likewise arabs even though were same people but they moved away from each other and then they were united and so there were differences between their spoken and written language of this nature because each group borrowed from other people of other languages they were in contact with as they needed. All this explanation in my view was necessary to come to the point because it will help people understand something I am going to explain about the originality of the quranic text.

    As explained above a lot of words in arabic are written using different letters. For example, let us take word SIRAAT. In arabic language word SIRAAT is written in two ways ie using SEEN as its first letter or SWAAD. In some places people write word SIRAAT using letter SWAAD and in others using letter SEEN so word SIRAAT has two roots ie SWAAD, RAA and TWAA and SEEN, RAA and TWAA. If we read the quranic text, no where in the quran word SIRAAT is written with letter SEEN at the beginning and everywhere in the quran word SIRAAT is always written with letter SWAAD. You will agree that if the quran did not come down in written form and people made copies out of their memories then we ought to find that some copies of the quran ought to have in them word siraat written with letter swaad and in others word siraat written with letter seen. In fact each copy was bound to have letters seen and swaad in different places compared to each other. Since all copies of the quran to date contain this word written only and only by using letter swaad then how do we explain this consistency unless people were given a copy of the quran in writing to copy the written text from it exactly as it was? Let me explain this in another way in english. If I dictated to a mixed group of people from different countries in different places to write down word MUHAMMAD, will they all write it exactly as I have it in my mind or will they do it the way they know it according to their own life experiences in their own places? An italian person will write muhammad the way he thinks and an english person will write it the way he thinks and a french person will write it the way he thinks etc etc. Some will end up writing muhammad others mohammed and yet others mohamed and so on and so forth.

    Word SIRAAT is not the only one but there are dozens of such words used in the text of the quran throughout the text of the quran and they have been transmitted constantly exactly the same. It should leave no doubt in one's mind that the quran was transmitted both in written and spoken forms right from the day one otherwise the differences between copies that still exist in the world will have been unimaginable due to nature of the arabic language. For an urdu, farsi or arabic speaker it is very easy to refute all scholars who think the quran we have today is not original. How? By looking at ancient copies of the quran. These copies did not have dots to distinguish between letters to begin with and they did not have vowel marks. What does that mean? It means BAY, TAY, SAY, NOON and YAI as well as LAAM could not be written as separated letters particularly when written in middle of a word that has joined letters in it as its spellings because they used the very same sign or symbol. JEEM, HAY and KHAY used the very same sign. Like wise DAAL and ZAA, RAY and ZAY, SEEN and SHEEN, SWAD and DWAD, TOE and ZOE, AIN and GHAIN and FAY and QAAF used the very same sign. This being the case none could read a writing unless one already knew the text by heart.

    In arabic vowels can be replaced with diacritical marks so each consonant could have six possible sounds eg MEEM could be MU or MOOO, or MA or MAAA, or ME or MEEE etc. So if we wrote just four consonants MHMD, we will have 6x6x6x6=1296 possibilities of pronunciations. These are concrete facts which any scholar can verify for oneself. It is really challenging for any scholar to try reading a text that is size of the quran merely from the consonants alone without having known it previously. One cannot read such a text unless one has it already in one's memory. This is clear proof that the quran was memorised direct from the source otherwise merely having a text could end up as countless number of different readings because each word could be pronounced in many different ways due to lack of diacritical marks as well as due to lack of dots for identification of each letter in words. The lack of such huge number of variant reading of the quranic text in the muslim world concretely proves that the quran as we have it today is original.

    Just as it was not possible to read the quran from the written text alone uniformly so it was not possible to write the quran uniformly if it was not copied in writing from the already existing written copies of the quran. Why not? As explained already many words in the quran had variant roots so if people sat down to write a text out of their memories as individuals then each person will have made a copy from his memory as he knew how to write a word so there will occur numberless variants written texts. For example, if people had to write down word SIRAAT, some will write it with SEEN and others with SWAAD. Not only that but they will do it in different places in the quranic text wherever this word was repeated. Since the quran has many such words in it then we ought to find such variations in huge numbers ie trillions of variants but we do not. How can any scholar in the world explain that? So another clear proof that the quran came down both in written and memorised forms independent of each other.

    These simple explanations are sufficient to prove that people who rely on false reports in hadith books and other sources to prove the quran was collected and written down after the prophet are seriously mistaken and such reports should not be taken seriously in light of such concrete proofs as stated here.

    This however does not mean there are no copying errors in the existing copies of the quran, there are but the nature of error is very simple ie humans make all sorts of errors due to absent mindedness in whatever they do. Mind always wonders off when people get tired or bored in doing something so they may end up writing something out of context or missing the whole line of text or add something from whatever is in their minds etc etc. Not only that people add their own notes in books for jogging their memory about some points they think are important to highlight for later referral. So those who were copying the quran suffered the same but nothing was done deliberately because for that one had to have a purpose in mind. What I mean is that if anyone wanted to change the quran deliberately then one ought to have some purpose in mind which his new quran could serve and in that case ummah could never have the same quranic text which it always have had to date.

    So all allegations against the originality of the quran are mere misunderstanding of the scholars and nothing more unless they have ulterior motives to deliberately say falsehood against the originality of the quran but that only they know for themselves. A misunderstanding of scholars is that they take modification of written arabic as changes in text of the quran. They do not realise that when people face problems they look for solutions. It was found very difficult to read and write the quran the way the original arabic was written so they came up with idea of adding dots and diacritical marks to reduce dependency on memory. This is why when new ways of writing the very same text were discovered the number of hufaaz of the quran dropped from say 90% to a few percent. It is because people could now read actual message from the written arabic text except for a small number of things so dependency on hufaaz decreased with time and coming about of printing press.

    To explain the same point further as an example, if a word was management and it was written as MNGMNT and was modified to management due to development and progress in the language then scholars due to their ignorance took it as a change in the actual text of the quran, which is silly to say the least. We even today use sign for many things including road traffic signs instead of writing because they are easy to work with than standing on a sign post and reading a sign while people blow their tops off shouting during busy road traffic. So it all depends on how a society organises and regulates itself and how easy it feels with what it does otherwise people modify things as it suits them better. So when things seemed difficult arabs modified the way of writing arabic and in doing so benefited from this modification. Such simple explanations are ignored by people or they remain ignorant about them yet they claim their research is of highest standard.

    Yet other thing in the quran is letters in the beginning of some surahs. Some of them if were not pronounced as well as written they could confuse people as to they were words or separate letters eg take surah two verse one letters ALIF, LAAM and MEEM. The way they are written in surahs they could be taken for meaningful words because there is a word in arabic which is pronounced ALAM eg see in surah 94 verse one.

    Yet other evidence is the fact that the very first verse of the quran is always written the very same way ie BISMILLA HIRRAHMAA NIRRAAHEEM. It is written with 19 letters in it always whereas it can be written with a few more letters eg ALIF in ISM of BISMILLAH is MISSING. Word ISM is written in surah 96 verse one with ALIF. Anyone will find that all copies of the quran throughout the world are written exactly that way. Had each person dictated the quranic text out of memory and each person wrote it down the way one knew then we ought to see very many differences in written texts of this nature but there are none.

    All copies of the quran have no bismillah at the start of surah nine. Had people made copies as they liked then we will have found variations between them some including and some excluding letters, words and verses in the text. So there is water tight evidence that the quran as we have it was written down by the prophet himself and handed down to his people before he passed away. He actually delivered the message of Allah as it was supposed to be delivered ie in recitation and writing otherwise he could not have been chosen as a messenger by Allah. Even we humans do not choose bad workers for getting our works done if we can help it so how could Allah be expected to do such a silly thing as choose someone unfit for the job? That will have ruined the whole purpose and plan of Allah for humanity. Had prophet himself not left the quran behind and the people at the time fully accepting it they could have ended up divided about it right from the very beginning for ever and none could have united them on the basis of the quran after the prophet. Today whatever else muslims do they have only one quran and copies of the quran are available throughout the world even from long time in the past. According to some claims we have copies of the quran even from the time very near to the time of the prophet.

    Unfortunately muslims are not good at preservations, observations, research and explorations. It is a miracle in itself for quran to have survived intact till now somehow because muslims are such a people who did very little to advance the message of the quran properly. The way people claiming to be muslims are busy killing each other it is not going to take very long before they are all gone. Any remaining ones will be done away with by kufaar. But then Allah has a plan of his own so we will come to know whatever awaits for us good or bad. Muslims fight among themselves due to their ignorance and stupidity and not because there is anything wrong with the quran.

    Please do note that scribal errors are there in the hand written copies of the quran and so are there printing errors in printed copies but they should not be taken seriously as human errors are human nature. These errors if I sit down with copies of the quran can find and correct but I will not do so nor advise anyone else because that will be tempering with original copies that are historical documents of huge value. However since we are aware of these like errors therefore we should not let them through to newer copies we make through future media that is more capable of helping us for coping with this task. Moreover when we talk to people about errors in the quranic text we should never claim that there are no human errors in the copies of the quran. Such errors have no affect upon the actual message of the quran.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nZpClvTaDo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsyeR77WT7g
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPYHCUARxsw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2xKDbOU5wc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYAGtR7EdS0
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41DtjRnx6Y
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H7If_rSl7E
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m6BXstWgRU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RFchKei17o


    The problem with claims of all western scholars of the quran is they are not aware of certain facts about the quran due to which they have no idea what the deen of islam actually is. Their biggest problem is mullahs who had no sense and who misinterpreted the actual quranic text and misrepresented it and their whole responses are in that context. A true scholar of the quran will separate the quran from its followers and look at it as a document in its own right and see what it says afresh according to rules explained above by myself very clearly. If they did not find the model of real islam in the quran that could not be defeated then they had the right to claim all those things they claim about the quran.

    They assume right from the very beginning that the message of the quran is what people who claim to be muslims say they believe it to be. This means they are not examining the text of the quran but what people claim about the text as to what it means. It shows their scholarship is not up to standard the quran requires for its scrutinizer or cross examiner or critical analyser. This only proves their ignorance and stupidity or ulterior motives just like rulers, money lenders and mullahs or both.

    1) Questions have been raised by muslims and nonmuslims alike whether it is possible to translate the quranic text perfectly. What has been explained about the nature of the language in sense of its origin, development and the way it works and what is explained about role of God and role of humanity should leave one in no doubt that it is not possible for humanity to interpret the message of God precisely ever. The main reason is difference between the knowledge of God and knowledge of people. However, it is very much possible for all practical purposes for people to know and teach the message of the quran to each other with a degree of accuracy in sense of its purpose, which is mainly guidance of mankind to some degree. So any claim that anyone ever knew the quran perfectly is a false claim. Even the messengers of Allah only came to know as much of the revelation of Allah as was humanly possible for them according to their own time and place. All one can say is that they knew the message maximum possible at the time or that no one knew the message as good as the messengers of Allah at the time. Any claim about any messenger of Allah about knowing things beyond human capability is attributing falsehood to the messengers of Allah. In deen of Allah there is no such thing as personality cult. It is because the reference is always the revealed scripture from Allah not any particular person be one a messenger of Allah. It is because only Allah is free of making any mistakes so only his message can be free of all errors.

    As for human beings they cannot be declared free of human errors but one can say they never did anything deliberately wrong if they were true followers of the word of Allah. This is why they cannot be the reference point. In the quran Allah talks about prophet ibraheem as an exemplary messenger of Allah and he is said to be leader of mankind but only so far as his following of the message of Allah. Even when he asks Allah about his biological and ideological children to be made leaders of mankind, he is told very clearly that yes but only if they also followed message of Allah like you. The idea that quran asks people to follow any messenger of Allah as a model in his own right is attributing falsehood to Allah and his messengers. This is a very important and a decisive point for all people to pay their attention to and who wish to know the message of the quran properly. A clear proof that deen of islam is not a personality cult as claimed by mullahs of various sects. This is why the primary source of information about deen of islam is the Quran not the ahaadith attributed to the messenger of Allah nor the information passed down the generations of muslims in form of books of fiqh= the so called islamic jurisprudence. This does not mean the books of hadith or fiqh are not important but only as secondary sources to the quran. The main reason for that is the status or position of the quran in deen of islam. The quran is taken as word of Allah, the master of the universe and all that exists. He is sole ruler of it by right of its ownership due to being its originator. This being the case no human being should claim nor should be accepted as an authority on equal footing with Allah. All human beings be they messengers of Allah are still his creatures and not Gods in their own rights so people cannot be given same status as that of Allah.

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    2) When it comes to interpretation of the quran, as explained already it must be interpreted mainly in context of its language and its purpose in light of self evident facts or in light of real world realities ensuring that one does not introduce contradictions within the testament of Allah or between the testament of Allah and self evidence facts or real world realities when the quran claims to be free of such contradictions and tells mankind to check it against real world realities to see how consistent it is. That means people who sit down to interpret the quranic text must first be familiar with things the quran is talking about because if anyone will try to interpret the quran not knowing the required information for doing this job then such a person will make tonnes of mistakes and if such mistakes are passed onto people as the message of Allah then it could have serious consequences for humanity as a whole even if such mistakes are result of an innocent adventure by a person. It is because people who accept the message will not be accepting the message of the quran but its inaccurate translation which will be a false teaching in its name and by acting upon it one will do things that could end up harming oneself and others.

    Likewise people who will reject the message due to mistakes in it will be rejecting it as the message of the quran thinking it is the true message of Allah which it is not so they will remain away from the true guidance of Allah. The consequences will be serious because the result will be more and more divisions among people of the book and more and more people will move away from the book and as people remain divided, the more and more fights and wars will continue between people because of wrong interpretations of the message. So one can see what is at stake if things were not done the right way. However this will be taken advantage of by those who want things to be that way ie rulers, money lenders, mullahs, their touts and supporters due to their ignorance and stupidity as well as arrogance ie due to their sense of dominating others by undermining them so that they could use and abuse them at will. In short such people will try their best to use the scripture as a tool for manipulating mankind to fulfil their own personal objectives for personal gains at the expense of others thereby.

    3) It is very important that when we talk about islam we have some understanding of the actual situation. The main issue when we discuss islam is, what do we take islam for ie a set of make beliefs and some useless rituals for individuals or a program for mankind for accomplishing some goals according to some guidelines as a proper human community based upon quranic constitution and law for running a kingdom in the name of Allah according to his guidance?

    Anyone who takes islam as a religion has to answer a main question, why there are guidelines for a constitution and laws for organisation and regulation of human society? What has praying to God to do with running of a kingdom or a community? It is because religion is all about individuals having some so called beliefs and doing some acts of so called worship as one sees fit. It is not anyone's business what anyone else believes or does because it is a private affair between a person and his God. The main question one has to ask oneself is, does islam fit this category? My answer is very clear that islam does not fit this category therefore I do not accept islam is a religion nor should anyone who knows the quran better.

    All people who have learned some sense and have studied the quran for knowing islam believe that islam is not only about God and man but about God and man as well as about humanity as a whole. In other words islam is a way of life that leads mankind to an end that is set by Allah for mankind. It is the main reason why islam is called deenillah or sabeelillah or ADDEEN or deen of islam ie the way of life advised for mankind by Allah for a blissful, dignified and secure existence. All this explains why Allah advised this way of life for mankind.

    Since in my understanding of the quran islam is not a religion therefore any argument over religion of islam is a nonsense and shows a person is totally confused about islam be one a person who claims to be a muslim or a nonmuslims. The main thing is that anyone who thinks islam is a religion must first prove islam is a religion before one accepts it or rejects it or raises any objection against it. In other words there is no sense in talking about islam as a religion because it is not a religion so why waste time and energy on something that is not really there. I therefore oppose any person who claims islam is a religion regardless one claims to be a muslim or happens to be a nonmuslim. I want such a person to prove from the quran that his claim is right about islam that it is only a system of some beliefs and some rituals that have nothing at all to do with real world realities. It is because religion cannot be but a private matter for an individual and his God whereas the quran is very clear that islam is not a private affair of an individual and his God. This is why in my view islam is a deen. Since it is a deen so all need to understand it as such regardless they claim to be muslims or happen to be nonmuslims. So all questions about deen of islam are to be asked and answered in that context.

    Since islam is a deen sent by Allah therefore it is a program from Allah for mankind for accomplishing some goals according to his provided guidelines. Since it is a program for mankind therefore the message of the quran must be taken to all people in the world so that they have a look at it and think it over and if they like what they are told they come together to form a community network on basis of a constitution and its laws as per guidelines provided in the quran. This is the context in which people need to understand islamic shariah or law of islam or islamic jurisprudence. It is in this context one must come to know the procedure for writing a constitution or forming a law. This is why individuals need to know the quran and have their opinions and arguments to back them up but it is the ummah that is to decide together what is to be the correct interpretation of the book and arrive at a consensus after having the knowledge needed for interpreting the quran properly. Unless it is ummah that accepts a constitution or a law as a whole, it cannot be called an islamic law or shariah. From this explanation it should be very clear why fatwas by ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking foolish individuals mean nothing at all in proper context of deen of islam in light of the quran. One must remember that a constitution or any laws must be accepted by all in the ummah freely after at least a simple properly educated lmajority agrees upon them. None is supposed to accept any constitution or law that goes against the stated goals and guidelines of the quran. Before people sit down to argue over what the constitution or law should be they must have a reasonable idea as to what are goals they want to achieve or accomplish as an ummah and what are the guidelines so that no clauses are put in the constitution that are in conflict with the aims and the objectives of the constitution or each other.

    In other words a constitution needs to be written with declared objectives right at the top of the document. Since aims and objectives are the starting point of written constitution which decide which way the ummah is to move so all clauses that follow must be in line or consistent with these objectives otherwise the so called constitution or law will not be worth the paper it is written on. Once a constitution is structured with all its clauses as a complete document with all the needed laws with rights and responsibilities regarding institutions, office bearers and individuals and groups in the ummah then ummah as a whole must examine it with care and see if any mistake has been made in constructing this document before it is ratified and implemented by the ummah. If anything important is left out or something has been added which is not right then changes can be made in the constitution or law even after ratification but each time any change has been made it must be put before ummah and accepted by it otherwise the document will become invalid as a constitution or law. I have already explained what are the aims and objectives or goals set for ummah to accomplish and what are guidelines in my interpretation of the quranic text here and there so no point in repeating all this in here. One can see my interpretation of the quran HERE.

    The other important point to remember is that the quran is about three states of existence of muslims ie as individuals in any place in the world, as a community anywhere in the world and as a community within a kingdom of their own. Each of these three states of existence have their own requirements. Individuals are only required what they can do as individuals and community is only required what community can do as a community and a community in a kingdom of its own is required what it can do as a community in a kingdom of its own. In short there are very limited requirement for individuals but requirement increase when people become a community and they increase even more when the community has its own kingdom. It is because as people who accept deen of islam increase in their numbers their power increases and therefore their responsibilities also increase towards each other and towards rest of mankind. For example, an individual is mainly responsible for learning and educating oneself about all one can learn in one's life time as well as about learning the quran and only when one has learned deen of islam properly oneself one's responsibility increases for teaching it to others the best one can. It is binding upon more than one muslims to live together as a family fully supporting each other in every way and keep working to bring more and more people into fold of deen of islam. Once a few people come together they must organise and regulate themselves according the quranic guidelines. They must form a constitution to help them organise themselves and work out laws to help them regulate themselves in light of quranic guidelines as well as in light of ground realities that face them as per their situations and circumstances. From all this explanation it should be clear to people what deen of islam really is and what being a muslim actually means.

    When a muslim lives among the rest of humanity, one sees human world living in a terrible state of affairs because each person is tearing apart any other like an animal to get what one wants of the others. All this is result of ignorance, illiteracy and lack of proper education ie people are hardly any better than rest of animals therefore they choose to live by way of life based upon personal gains at the expense of each other. Out of this human population some one rises above others to try and give people some better direction ie a way of life based upon living for each other as a proper human community so that life could become somewhat better than what is already there. Since this person is part of rest of human race and is born into an already existing human population so he faces a lot of difficulties because he is challenging things as they are in order to change them the way one sees fit. This being the situation all those who benefit from things as they are, are going to become upset with him and are going to use all means at their disposal to keep things as they are. It is now up to people as individuals to decide what they support and what they oppose and the direction they take will decide their future as human population. This divides people into a few different camps. Ones that clearly support the change and others who clearly oppose the change and yet others who are undecided and some who play from both sides of the fence etc etc.

    Since divisions are already there in human populations due to rivalries and animosities so hatred and wars are also there therefore there is little that changes just for sake of new movement for ensuring well being of mankind. In other words any person who rises up in an already fighting population cannot cause any more damage to whatever is already there but can try and see if one can get rid of all this harm and destruction among people. This was the situation with messengers of Allah who tried to guide mankind out of their harmful and destructive mindsets, attitudes and behaviours based on harmful and destructive ambitions and desires against each other. When Adam was sent as a messenger by Allah people were already killing each other and chiefs were looking for a way out of this harm and destruction because they became fed up with whatever was going on in their societies. Same was happening when the final messenger of Allah came to save people from their own harms and destructions which they were already inflicting upon each other ie there were already wars on going all around arabia eg romans and persians etc were already busy fighting each other and even tribal people were at each other's throats in arabia itself.

    The quran tells us facts about human history but mullahs have masked the information given in the quran with their nonsense due to their ignorance and foolishness because they did no research and exploration on what the quran was talking about to find out but instead made up stories while sitting on their behinds. They have been telling people Adam was first man who was created by Allah directly without involving natural process of cause and effect. The quran on the other hand explains things in sense of designed development of things from a starting point onwards like a flower gradually starts opening up bit by bit till it has opened up fully. In other words Allah talks about gradual unfolding of his plan with time like blossoming of a flower or growing of a tree from its seed.

    The very first proper human community was gathered by Adam with help of his supporters who then brought about a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah. He was opposed by a chief named in the quran as Iblees. Iblees and his supporters did manage to bring down the kingdom Adam and his supporters brought about but they managed to rebuilt it. Attention should be paid to the fact that the quran talks about various stages of development of the universe and humanity itself. For example the quran talks about tree of life which we can call tree of evolution today. It talks about various stages of development of a human being even before the birth of a human being as well as stages of development of a human being after his birth till death. A clear proof that quran is talking about natural cause and effect process in natural world. Things have been created to observe already existing things and learn from them and do what they think is right for them to ensure their survival but humans have been created with maximum freedom for self programming as compared to all other living things. All this has been explained here and there in my interpretation of the quran so I will not go into detail of all that here.

    It should therefore be clear that deen of islam is not the problem but solution for problems that human beings have created for themselves through senseless interaction between themselves and therefore have ruined their environment. However by learning things and educating themselves about the real world realities and the revelation of Allah they can bring about the world the quran promises. The quran is a real plan for building a proper human community and therefore a kingdom in which all people have a blissful, dignified and secure existence with help and full support of each other. If that is what we want. If not then people are free to keep doing to each other as they are or have been since long past.

    Since security of people depends upon each other according to the quran and unless they agree to live peacefully for progress and prosperity of each other they cannot have any kind of security so all questions relating all kinds of security what if this and what if that become meaningless in context of the quran and deen of islam.

    For example, people raise questions about CHAADUR, BURQA or VEIL etc or does Allah require people to wear certain kind of dress? Before asking such questions one must make oneself aware of the fact that deen of islam has aims and objectives for mankind to accomplish so if something is needed for fulfilling its objectives then it is needed otherwise it is not needed because ways and means in themselves are not the objectives and it is the purpose that decide what is necessary and what is not. This is the porper context of understanding the commandment in the quran.

    Now coming to question of dress code, it depends upon what is actual security available to people in a human population of which one is a part. When there is war like situation in a population and each person is trying to dominate others by undermining them by all means at his disposal then all are put under siege by each other because all are worried what is going to happen to them the next minute and who is going to do them something really bad so all need to take maximum security measures to try as best as they can to stay safe from each other. In such a society no one will be happy to see anyone else because all spell danger for each other as predators and victims. However if a population has decided to live as a caring sharing family making sure safety and security of each other then all are relaxed and glad to see each other. Now when you feel threatened then you take measure that are appropriate and when you are feeling safe and secure then you relax your security measures as well. It is because in one situation you try your best to hide yourself from others as well as anything else you treasure because otherwise you are sure to lose it to predators or rivals. In the other situation you are relaxed so there is no need for running for cover. It is because in one situation everyone is there to take away whatever you have because they do not have that or just because they want to have something extra because they may need it if not today then may be tomorrow which may never come but that is the way people in such a society think about things. In the other society everyone has whatever others have so no one needs anything of anyone else because they gave each otehr what they have so no one needs to be scared of anyone else. Adam was told to bring about a human society wherein all could eat of anything (ie take part in doing anything) accept for things which could damage or destroy the proper human community.

    From my this explanation it should be clear by now how I look at deen of islam and why I do that and why I think mullahs have ruined this beautiful message of Allah by covering it up with loads of their nonsense. If one is really interested in learning deen of Allah then it is therefore necessary that people study the language of the quran and be a thinking people because the quran repeatedly invites attention of those who are thinkers to see what the actual message of the quran is and what it has on offer for mankind.

    When I talk against mullahs, rulers and money lenders I do not mean the scholarly works people produced are totally useless because they have a lot of very useful things in them which help us move forward if we could learn how to use those works. Dictionaries are very useful works for example, be they written by atheists, hindus, parsees, jews, christiasns, muslims or any other people. Likewise is the case with maths and sciences etc etc. The idea that only muslim mullahs know islam properly is a false idea. Book of Allah is for all human beings who are looking for guidance but nothing is easy in life so people do need to work at learning things including the message of this book called al-quran. This does not mean works of other people are not at all helpful in knowing about the message of the quran. None of us is born fully educated and we all learn from each other so exchanging ideas helps to know things better and to discover newer and better ideas.

    The most important point people who claim to be muslims or nonmuslims need to be aware of is, islam is a deen not a mazhab. The only people who accept islam as mazhab are rulers, money lenders, mullahs, their touts and supporters. I will try and explain why they do that and why they want all other people to do that.

    No messenger was sent by Allah but he worked for establishing deen of Allah not any mazhab. Mazhab is personal for individual but deen by its very nature demands a proper human community. The very idea that Allah sent messengers to guide mankind means that Allah wanted people to stick together for well being of each other as a starting point. This is why Allah created people into human relationships as interdependent so deen of islam is a program for mankind for accomplishing certain goals stated in the quran and there are also guidelines according to which these goals are to be accomplished. The quran is a foundation for a constitution and laws for forming a proper human community and bringing about a kingdom and maintaining it for proper development and progress of humanity so that it could thereafter accomplish other higher goals. This is why there is concept of ummah in deen of islam as well as of a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah.

    So people who do not accept islam as a deen are not accepted muslims by the quran because they do not accept the fact that law of Allah is supreme so they do not live by rule of law of Allah as a proper human community and instead live by rule of law of people by accepting the concept that man has right to rule over another man. This concept is all about creating negative divisions in humanity due to which there are rivalries and animosities therefore hatred and wars. It is because this way of life whereby one man rules over another is based upon personal gains at the expense of each other it is in direct opposition to a way of life advised by Allah which is for ensuring well being of all people as a proper human community according to guidance provided by Allah. This is why personal gains based way of life divides people into advantaged and disadvantaged or rich and poor or strong and weak groups and each tries to take undue advantage of the others leading to all sorts of troubles and problems among human beings. The reason such divisions occur is because people do not use their God given abilities and things as they should to help each other as a complementary society. Since they misuse each and everything provided by Allah they end up hurting each other instead of ensuring well being of each other.

    This is why Allah provided mankind with guidance and some people accept that guidance and support it while others reject and oppose it so mankind become divided into two camps a)muslims and b)kufaar. This leads to permanent struggle between people belonging to two main groups of people. Since people who work for well being of humanity do as told but their opponents do as they like therefore the human world is not the way it is supposed to be instead it is polarised by what people believe and do to each other. Since there is constant struggle between two groups of people who are following opposite ways of life therefore people do what they think will ensure dominance of their way of life over any other way of life.

    From here begins all sorts of warfare between people to ensure their dominance over each other. So each time Allah sent any messenger with his guidance and he succeeded in bringing people within his reach under the jurisdiction of kingdom of Allah, soon the kingdom was swamped after the death of the messenger by those seeking better life and the followers of the messengers failed to cope with situations they created for themselves by opening the gates for outsider far too much beyond their own capabilities. Once people within the kingdom became slack in implementing the deen of Allah properly and also let outsiders in, in great numbers, the kingdom turned into a chaotic place proving full of opportunities for ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking people who then spread in the kingdom of Allah the very beliefs and rituals they were used to. This handed over perfect opportunities for imperialists to hatch so many conspiracies within the kingdom that it fell apart and became what it was not supposed to be ie an empire based upon personal gains at the expense of proper human community.

    This is the history told in the quran if we interpret the stories related to messengers of Allah and the kingdoms they brought about. One cannot understand the quran by mere random verses and their explanations by mullahs. For example, ask yourselves what happen to kingdom of prophet sulaimaan that was brought about by prophet david? SHAITAAN is not a supernatural magical figurehead but a leadership which stands in opposition to guidance of Allah. SIHR does not mean magic the way mullahs tells us but merely covering of actual thing or masking it with something else to make it appear as the real thing which it is not. There is nothing in the quran about supernatural events other than the acts of creation and revelation. Make beliefs and useless rituals were invented and promoted by rulers, money lenders and mullahs to try to fool uneducated masses so that they could enslave them and keep them under their sway for use and abuse at will. This is why people always conspired against the messengers of Allah and his missionaries in order to stop them from spreading the actual message of Allah which is for ensuring well being of mankind.

    When people will start looking at works of opponents of deen of Allah in that context all fights between people will start making sense as to who is doing what and why. In order to try and confuse people, some try their best to show deen of islam is actually a man made thing. The question is, how do they do that? They do that by telling us all sorts of nonsense eg they tell us islam is not a deen but a mazhab. This is most severe attack one can ever carry out against deen of islam because merely by saying islam is not a deen they are telling us that people do not need guidance of Allah for knowing how they should live properly in this world. This idea therefore flies straight into the face of deen of islam and its actual followers yet those who claim to be muslims remain unaware of how damaging this idea of islam being a mazhab is for humanity as a whole. It means fights between people can never come to an end ever because if people are allowed to live as they like by each other then there cannot be any way out of this way of life based upon personal gains at the expense of each other. Something people in position of power want the most to continue for as long as they can help it do that.

    This is why anyone who accepts islam as a mazhab instead of deen is actually playing in hands of users and abusers of humanity. This is why it is a more dangerous way to attack islam than actually attacking muslims with dangerous weapons. It is because in this case one is telling people that harmful and destructive actions are good because they are ordered by Allah when the actual fact is Allah does not tell people to do anything that is useless or harmful for mankind. This is why people who have nothing at all to do with Allah and humanity support religions because that gives them opportunities to carry on with whatever they are doing ie using and abusing mankind in the very name of Allah. This explanation should help people see why rulers, money lenders and mullahs do what they do and how they do it with help of their touts and supporters.

    It has been explained already how messengers and missionaries of deen of Allah learn and teach deen of Allah and that is why they end up creating a kingdom based upon deen of Allah. A clear proof that each and every person in the kingdom of Allah knows the book of Allah because otherwise people cannot bring about the kingdom according to the book. None can form an organisation or a kingdom nor can one regulate one without having some sort of law. Even the tribal people had tribal customs to live by and they taught these customs to their future generations. A clear proof that no population can live without some sort of common code of life no matter how simple or how complex and sophisticated. A clear proof that messengers of Allah also brought about proper communities and kingdoms as per revealed programs, constitutions and laws for accomplishing set out goals according to provided guidelines.

    So anyone who thinks islam is not a deen but a mazhab is far far away from proper understanding of the message in the quran. Likewise anyone who has little or no proper understanding of the quran can never understand anything else that is attributed to Allah or any of his messengers or any of his people. It is because if a solid foundation is not there then there is no criterion for judging anything else. The real world realities and revelations of Allah provide one with solid foundation that one can examine for oneself. That is the only base upon which one can and should build the proper human community.

    This is why one will be very foolish to leave the solid foundation aside and try to build a proper human community on foundation of personality cults which themselves are not based on anything solid at all. This is why when Allah declared prophet ibraheem a good example to follow in following the commandments of Allah then prophet ibraheem asked the same about his children and he was told very clearly that only those people can be followed who actually follow the rule of law of Allah and only as much as they do that. So the main thing is not following of Abraham but what he followed as his imaam ie guidance of Allah. Nowhere Allah points out anyone as an exemplary character in his entirety in his own right because even messengers of Allah are not free of human errors. People are only supposed to support messengers of Allah so far as they are doing anything by the book of Allah. Way of life of messengers of Allah was not set-up by themselves but was told to them by Allah and it was up to them to follow it faithfully and they did except where they ended up making odd mistakes due to being human beings. This is why all concepts that people have created around personalities in the name of deen of islam are false. As soon as people will educate themselves properly about deen of islam they will give up all their nonsense beliefs and useless rituals and start doing what the quran actually requires of people to do so that its stated purpose and plan fulfils.

    People who attack concept of deen of islam only do so because they want to replace it with personality cults so that they could then use names of those people to add wrong things to deen of islam and thereby get their way. This is why beliefs of certain people are taken as guaranty of true islam whereas people are supposed to take the book of Allah as the criterion after it has been interpreted free of all contradictions as the book itself claims. Likewise when people opposing the book could not find any way to undermine the book of Allah they tried to attack the book by inventing other stories and mixing them up with existing stories about the prophets that were originally completely true in order to try to make them look credible. The same idea was expanded later in books of fiqh. This is why people invented five schools of thought in the names of people none of whom told people to follow them. It were rulers, money lenders and mullahs who tried to move people away from the quran by keeping them ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking with backing of imperial machinery as is always the case when people in positions of power decide to use and abuse others at will.

    From all these explanations in this post and elsewhere it should be very clear for all who have sense that not only the quran but all revelations sent by Allah were not only memorised by people but were also written down by them as well. This is why Allah did not start sending revelations till people had discovered ways of reading and writing. Revelation of Allah only began when man was able to think at a higher level ie man became self aware and aware of realities around him and sought guidance because he became a thinking human being. Story of adam and his people told in the quran is actually a true story but it has not been explained properly by ignorant and foolish mullahs because they are hardly that learned people. One can see how much self aware these people are never mind their awareness about realities of real world. This is why anyone who thinks deen of islam is that which is told by mullahs only exposes his own level of ignorance and foolishness about deen of islam.

    Word quran does means recitation but not just recitation as mullahs will have us believe. Word QUR-AAN comes from root QAAF, RAA and ALIF. This root revolves around concept of purposeful collection or gathering of something. Letter QAAF means monkey or anything like a monkey in some sense, letter RAA means head or anything like head in some sense and letter ALIF means a bull or somethinmg like a bull in some sense. So if we expand on meanings of each of these letters one can see we could end up with so many meanings of this root. This is why it has meanings like monthly periods, sperm collection in a womb, sect, faction, group, a generation of people, reading from a written text, recitation from memory of a written text, a written collection of some information for preservation, contents gathered in something in some form, time span, cycle, appointed time, to become with child, to gather together, to hold, to hold in, to know, to learn, to cause or enable something, discourse, the entire text of the quran, reading, chief, manager, managed, power, authority, staff, stick, to imitate, to mimic, to meddle, to fool , to tinker, to be agile, to be mischievous, to make fool of, to be clever etc etc.

    Word AL-QUR-AAN is a very comprehensive word. It means each and everything that serves its purpose in one or another sense. For short we can ask, why is the quran called AL-QURAAN? It is called AL-QURAAN because it is a recitation or proclamation or reading or writing or information or guidance or manifesto or program or constitution etc etc or any of these or all of these etc etc. In fact the whole text of the quran is merely explanation of what quran or deen of islam is. It all depends upon how detailed information one is looking for about the quran or deen of islam. This is what we find in dictionaries that people expand words as much as it serves their purpose and not that words stated in the dictionaries do not have any more meanings to add to these dictionaries.

    How people try to distort deen of islam? They distort deen of islam in different ways eg by bringing in concepts that are merely make beliefs and by bringing in rituals that are useless.

    Let us take the make belief that Allah sent his messengers with miracles. Can anyone clearly define what a miracle is? No. Can anyone prove that miracles are necessary for proving existence of Allah or that any claimant of messenger-ship from Allah is in actual fact a messenger sent by Allah? No. Why not? Because if miracles were necessary for proving existence of Allah or messenger-ship of a claimant of messenger-ship of Allah then where is any miracle for doing that for people of today? Not only that but there were no miracles for any people who did not witness them and particularly the later generations. If jesus showed some miracles to some people in some place then who showed any miracles to other people in other places where jesus did not reach himself and particularly after jesus? Today all people are trying to prove existence of God only through whatever texts and books they have. What does that tell us? It tells us very clearly that miracles were never needed to prove anything but this concept was invented by rulers, money lenders and mullahs to make fools of ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking people and they succeeded in doing that till today because ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking people still believe all sorts of nonsense they are told by their ignorant and foolish mullahs. This will keep happening till people educate themselves out of their ignorance and stupidity. The concept of miracles also contradicts the concept of end of messenger-ship of Allah because only prophets can show actual miracles in that case so these messengers then by necessity needed to be sent in each and every place throughout the world to show miracles which is not the case in real world that is before us. A clearly invented concept to derail the deen of Allah with help of a lot of nonsense, confusing and unending chains of explanations that keep going for ever but explain absolutely nothing at all. The question is, who invented this false belief and spread it among ignorant masses and why? It was work of joint groups of people whose interest this idea could serve ie rulers, money lenders and mullahs and they invented this idea because they did not want people to accept guidance of Allah just as they do not want them to do that even today and that is why they are spreading all sorts of nonsense to keep people away from serious thinking about life. If a people can go to so many wars to try to prevent people from going to deen of Allah then why will they not try to do that by all other means under their control eg establishment, mass media etc etc.

    How could they keep people away from deen of Allah by idea of miracles? To explain this point let us use an example of a child. Suppose a pair man and woman take away a child of someone else after his birth and keep telling him we are your father and mother till he is grown up, will the child ever know his real parents even if they were sitting next to him? No. It is because the child has no reason to miss his real parents because he thinks he is already with his real parents. Only if he somehow finds out that people he is living with are not his real parents that he will look at all other people thinking any of them could be his real parents. Likewise if people are indoctrinated with wrong ideas then those idea unless challenged, a person cannot find out what the reality may be. So if a people are indoctrinated with idea of miracles or supernatural human beings then unless people are challenged they will always be expecting such kind of man from God as his messenger and if anyone came and just read out things out of some book they will not accept him as a messenger of God because in their mind a man of God can only be a man who can do miracles and can act supernaturally. This is how rulers, money lenders and mullahs made fool of people by setting up personality cults in order to bar message of God in the name of God. It was a very clever idea because people always had problems understanding it for what it was worth ie it was a fraud.

    This is why the quran explains things to help people understand how things work in natural world naturally not supernaturally. The quran only puts two things as acts of Allah ie the creation of the universe and revelation of his message. This is why the quran emphasises the need for education and thinking, observation and proper understanding of things in so many verses. The explanation given here clearly explain that jesus was not a fatherless child, nor he did any miracles attributed to him and that all such claims related to jesus that involve supernatural acts are false according to the quran and people who are saying wrong things about jesus or for that mater any other messenger of Allah are in serious trouble with Allah and humanity.

    Who decides what deen of islam is and how? Allah, people or both?

    In my view deen of islam is decided by Allah and people both. Allah decides deen of islam in the sense of his dictation as to what it is and people decide it through their understanding of the message of Allah.

    The main point to note here is that Allah knows what he is talking about because he has much more knowledge than people can ever have. Mainly because it is his purpose and plan for humanity. So the one who creates or designs something for some purpose knows better than anyone else what he expects from it or for it. However user must also learn to use the thing properly so that one can benefit from its use instead of getting harmed by it through its misuse even if by mistake.

    Since it is people who need to make sense of what Allah has revealed so what do they need to know before they can understand the message of Allah?

    Since Allah has revealed his message in a human language so it is of vital importance that people learn things about the human language eg about its origin, development and how it works. Unless people come to know about these facts they cannot look at the message of the quran in its proper foundational context. A human baby when he is born has no sense of language therefore so long as he does not first learn a human language he cannot participate in a human society properly. Think about yourselves from the day you were born till you became what you are. What could you really do before you made some sense of the world in which you were born? How did you come to make sense of the world in which you were born? How did you come to speak the language you speak and do things that you do? Could you be of any use to yourself or anyone else if you remained the way you were born ie ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, untrained and having learned no skills of any sort? This is why anyone who has no interest in learning things that are important is useless for oneself as well the proper human community. Anyone who tells you anything on the contrary is only telling you falsehood, so do not listen to any such person who wishes to keep you ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, untrained, unskilled and an unthinking person. Such people even if they happen to be your parents, they are your enemies. Parenthood is not about bringing a child into this world but to ensure as much as it is within their power to put the child on to road of success by giving all kind of support they can give to the child that helps him succeed in life. Knowledge is very important factor in all this and therefore language.

    Once people come to know things about human language then the next vitally important thing is to know about the purpose of revelation of Allah because it is purpose of creation and revelation that helps understand the plan of Allah because the plan of Allah revolves around purpose of his creation and revelation. No one with any sense does anything haphazardly like a person who lacks any sense. Allah is AL-HAKEEM the wise one so purpose and plan of Allah has to be such that reflects his wisdom. So when people will have learned about his purpose and plan properly they will come to the conclusion that Allah is truly wise in actual fact.

    Therefore people should stop wasting their time on doing senseless things senselessly instead of focusing on making efforts to know things properly and then do them properly after knowing them in order to fulfil the purpose and plan of Allah as being part of it.

    This is why anyone who accepts islam as a mazhab instead of deen is actually playing in hands of users and abusers of humanity. This is why it is a more dangerous way to attack islam than actually attacking muslims with dangerous weapons. It is because in this case one is telling people that harmful and destructive actions are good because they are ordered by Allah when the actual fact is Allah does not tell people to do anything that is useless or harmful for mankind. This is why people who have nothing at all to do with Allah and humanity support religions because that gives them opportunities to carry on with whatever they are doing ie using and abusing mankind in the very name of Allah. This explanation should help people see why rulers, money lenders and mullahs do what they do and how they do it with help of their touts and supporters.

    The question arises how did rulers, money lenders and mullahs managed to derail deen of Allah from its rails? They invented an idea called SHAANE NAZOOL as a rule for interpreting the verses of the quran. It is an invention whereby mullahs told people that such and such surah or verse of the quran was revealed for this or that or the other reason. The idea was instilled in minds of people that Allah was prompted by people to tell things so he revealed the message to tell them what they wanted to know. This idea is a severe attack on integrity of the quranic text because that means the quran is an incomplete message in the sense that things people needed or going to need in the future but they could not ask the messenger of Allah about them remain unanswered and therefore unknown. Along with that another idea was invented and that was called concept of AL-NAASIKH WAL MANSOOKH ie the idea of abrogation. Another serious attack on the integrity of the quran. By telling people to accept this idea mullahs were actually telling people to accept that Allah was not the knowledgeable being because he kept changing his mind about things every so often. Within 23 years of life of messenger of Allah according to them Allah changed his mind about things so he abrogated some verses from the quran and replaced them with some new ones. If within such short period of 23 years the guidance of Allah failed to work then how could it last forever when so many changes in the world were yet to come because the world was created to carry on changing always and forever? This is how deen of islam was covered up by rulers, money lenders and mullahs through cooperating with each other through interpretations based upon these like rules. This shows the length to which some people went to try to get deen of Allah out of their way so that they could be left free on their own to use and abuse humanity at will.

    It has been explained already how messengers and missionaries of deen of Allah learned and taught deen of Allah and that is why they ended up creating a kingdom based upon deen of Allah. A clear proof that each and every person in the kingdom of Allah knows the book of Allah because otherwise people cannot bring about the kingdom according to the book of Allah. None can form an organisation or a kingdom nor can one regulate one without having some sort of law. Even the tribal people had tribal customs to live by and they taught these customs to their future generations. A clear proof that no population can live without some sort of common code of life no matter how simple or how complex and sophisticated. A clear proof that messengers of Allah also brought about proper communities and kingdoms as per revealed programs, constitutions and laws of Allah for accomplishing set out goals according to provided guidelines.

    So anyone who thinks islam is not a deen but a mazhab is far far away from proper understanding of the message in the quran. Likewise anyone who has little or no proper understanding of the quran can never understand anything else that is attributed to Allah or any of his messengers or any of his people. It is because if a solid foundation is not there then there is no criterion for judging anything else. The real world realities and revelations of Allah provide one with solid foundation that one can examine for oneself for its truth by seeing how realistic it can be for its stated purpose. That is the only base upon which one can and should build the proper human community.

    This is why one will be very foolish to leave the solid foundation aside and try to build a proper human community on foundation of personality cults which themselves are not based on anything solid at all. This is why when Allah declared prophet ibraheem a good example to follow for people he also told them that he is only good example in following the commandments of Allah. It is because when he asked Allah about the same for his children ie that they too should be followed by people, he was told very clearly that only those people can be followed who actually follow the rule of law of Allah which makes it very clear that the main thing is not following of Abraham but what he followed as his imaam ie guidance of Allah. Nowhere Allah points out anyone as an exemplary character in his entirety on his own independent of guidance of Allah because even messengers of Allah are not free of human errors. Had Allah put forth anyone on his own as a person to be followed then that will have given birth to personality cults in abundance. So people are only supposed to support messengers of Allah so far as they are doing anything by the book of Allah and not when they suffer a human error. In that case others can bring to their attention the laps if they become aware of it. The way of life for messengers of Allah was not set-up by themselves but was told to them by Allah and it was up to them to understand it properly and follow it faithfully and they did so except where they ended up making odd mistakes due to being human beings. This is why all concepts that people have created around personalities in the name of deen of islam are false. As soon as people will educate themselves properly about deen of islam they will give up all their nonsense beliefs and useless rituals and start doing what the quran actually requires of people to do so that its stated purpose and plan comes to its fulfilment.

    The quran can be used both for guidance and misguidance. It depends on how one has learned to use the quran to see whether one has learned to guide oneself and others or misguide oneself and others.

    Originality of a message and its consistency is as important as its purposefulness.

    Messengers of Allah had original messages from Allah and they were consistent and purposeful. So long as ummah does not read the quran with these points in mind and starts questioning what its mullahs and ignorant, illiterate, uneducated or unthinking molvies teach it, things will not take the turn for the better.

    Today people need to know the quran as we have it is original or not. It is because if we have any doubt at all that the quran we have is not original then no matter what we claim to be, we will not accept anything the quran tells us with our hearts and minds which seems to go against our personal vested interests. So the question is, how many of us human beings have bothered to learn how to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the quran we have is original?

    See how people attack deen of islam by telling us the quran we have is not original.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9lIuUjPs0
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHCeYSvazY4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDU0MelOOSc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6udiRzFO4Sk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwo5xpO390k
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsh1ZyXnMT4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFK5u5lkhA

    It was duty of people who proclaimed the quran to humanity that they also prove to mankind its originality. Since we- who claim to be missionaries as a proper human community or an ummah- have stopped doing that it has given the stick in the hands of others to beat us up with. This is why instead of people coming to deen of islam are leaving it openly or secretly. Instead of reason and consistency we have adopted force where we can use it to try to enforce what we claim deen of islam to be which we ourselves have no idea is consistent with the quran or not.

    Unless we start studying the quran the way we should, this situation therefore cannot improve in our favour and will keep on deteriorating. Instead of doing our God given duty the way we are told by God, we are busy doing things we want to do and the way we want to do them disregarding what Allah told us to do in the quran and the way to do it. No wonder we are not succeeding and are facing failures one after the other.

    If we want things to work for us then we must stop doing whatever we are doing and think and do things we are told by the quran and exactly as we are told to do them. Only then we can be sure to succeed because if we will do what is told by the quran and the way it told us to do it then success is guaranteed.

    The questions therefore are,

    1)Have we bothered to find out what the quran wants us to do?

    2)Have we bothered to find out the way the quran wants us to do those things?

    3) Have we prioritised whatever we are supposed to do?

    4) Have we worked out any effective action plans and have we put them in place?

    5) Are we properly organised and regulated for accomplishing whatever we are supposed to do?

    If we have done all this then we are ready to face the world but if we have not done all this then failure is bound to be the result of whatever we do and that is what is before our very eyes. So no surprise there, is there?

    Therefore if we want the world to be a blissful, dignified and secure place for our future generations then the quran is the only book that can lead us there for sure and no other scripture, belief or deed against it can bring such success in this life or in hereafter.

    So we should stop wasting our time by listening to nonsense of mullahs and their touts and instead learn how to study the quran by ourselves. If we already know the quran then we should help others do the same. We should not attribute any kind of nonsense to Allah and his messenger in the name of deen of islam. We should try our best to ensure what we are claiming as deen of islam is in actual fact deen of islam and not a make belief or a useless or a damaging action.

    So we should ensure we know the quran is original, the message we are getting about the quran from any source is purposefully consistent with the quran. If we will accept anything other than that then we are not only digging our own graves but also of our future generations as well as of rest of humanity. We were supposed to be a people of knowledge and practice to educate humanity but we failed very badly and the result is in front of us that others have taken over the leadership of humanity and are leading it to its sure destruction due to following the way of life based upon personal gains at the expense of humanity instead of following the way of life advised by Allah for ensuring the well being of mankind as a proper human community. No wonder therefore why the ummah is target of wrath of rest of the world because it betrayed the deen of Allah and humanity. Time to repent and reform or end up destroyed by continuing on the course which landed it in this situation.

  52. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mughal View Post
    2) When it comes to interpretation of the quran, as explained already it must be interpreted mainly in context of its language and its purpose in light of self evident facts or in light of real world realities ensuring that one does not introduce contradictions within the testament of Allah or between the testament of Allah and self evidence facts or real world realities when the quran claims to be free of such contradictions and tells mankind to check it against real world realities to see how consistent it is. That means people who sit down to interpret the quranic text must first be familiar with things the quran is talking about because if anyone will try to interpret the quran not knowing the required information for doing this job then such a person will make tonnes of mistakes and if such mistakes are passed onto people as the message of Allah then it could have serious consequences for humanity as a whole even if such mistakes are result of an innocent adventure by a person. It is because people who accept the message will not be accepting the message of the quran but its inaccurate translation which will be a false teaching in its name and by acting upon it one will do things that could end up harming oneself and others.

    Likewise people who will reject the message due to mistakes in it will be rejecting it as the message of the quran thinking it is the true message of Allah which it is not so they will remain away from the true guidance of Allah. The consequences will be serious because the result will be more and more divisions among people of the book and more and more people will move away from the book and as people remain divided, the more and more fights and wars will continue between people because of wrong interpretations of the message. So one can see what is at stake if things were not done the right way. However this will be taken advantage of by those who want things to be that way ie rulers, money lenders, mullahs, their touts and supporters due to their ignorance and stupidity as well as arrogance ie due to their sense of dominating others by undermining them so that they could use and abuse them at will. In short such people will try their best to use the scripture as a tool for manipulating mankind to fulfil their own personal objectives for personal gains at the expense of others thereby.

    3) It is very important that when we talk about islam we have some understanding of the actual situation. The main issue when we discuss islam is, what do we take islam for ie a set of make beliefs and some useless rituals for individuals or a program for mankind for accomplishing some goals according to some guidelines as a proper human community based upon quranic constitution and law for running a kingdom in the name of Allah according to his guidance?

    Anyone who takes islam as a religion has to answer a main question, why there are guidelines for a constitution and laws for organisation and regulation of human society? What has praying to God to do with running of a kingdom or a community? It is because religion is all about individuals having some so called beliefs and doing some acts of so called worship as one sees fit. It is not anyone's business what anyone else believes or does because it is a private affair between a person and his God. The main question one has to ask oneself is, does islam fit this category? My answer is very clear that islam does not fit this category therefore I do not accept islam is a religion nor should anyone who knows the quran better.

    All people who have learned some sense and have studied the quran for knowing islam believe that islam is not only about God and man but about God and man as well as about humanity as a whole. In other words islam is a way of life that leads mankind to an end that is set by Allah for mankind. It is the main reason why islam is called deenillah or sabeelillah or ADDEEN or deen of islam ie the way of life advised for mankind by Allah for a blissful, dignified and secure existence. All this explains why Allah advised this way of life for mankind.

    Since in my understanding of the quran islam is not a religion therefore any argument over religion of islam is a nonsense and shows a person is totally confused about islam be one a person who claims to be a muslim or a nonmuslims. The main thing is that anyone who thinks islam is a religion must first prove islam is a religion before one accepts it or rejects it or raises any objection against it. In other words there is no sense in talking about islam as a religion because it is not a religion so why waste time and energy on something that is not really there. I therefore oppose any person who claims islam is a religion regardless one claims to be a muslim or happens to be a nonmuslim. I want such a person to prove from the quran that his claim is right about islam that it is only a system of some beliefs and some rituals that have nothing at all to do with real world realities. It is because religion cannot be but a private matter for an individual and his God whereas the quran is very clear that islam is not a private affair of an individual and his God. This is why in my view islam is a deen. Since it is a deen so all need to understand it as such regardless they claim to be muslims or happen to be nonmuslims. So all questions about deen of islam are to be asked and answered in that context.

    Since islam is a deen sent by Allah therefore it is a program from Allah for mankind for accomplishing some goals according to his provided guidelines. Since it is a program for mankind therefore the message of the quran must be taken to all people in the world so that they have a look at it and think it over and if they like what they are told they come together to form a community network on basis of a constitution and its laws as per guidelines provided in the quran. This is the context in which people need to understand islamic shariah or law of islam or islamic jurisprudence. It is in this context one must come to know the procedure for writing a constitution or forming a law. This is why individuals need to know the quran and have their opinions and arguments to back them up but it is the ummah that is to decide together what is to be the correct interpretation of the book and arrive at a consensus after having the knowledge needed for interpreting the quran properly. Unless it is ummah that accepts a constitution or a law as a whole, it cannot be called an islamic law or shariah. From this explanation it should be very clear why fatwas by ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking foolish individuals mean nothing at all in proper context of deen of islam in light of the quran. One must remember that a constitution or any laws must be accepted by all in the ummah freely after at least a simple properly educated lmajority agrees upon them. None is supposed to accept any constitution or law that goes against the stated goals and guidelines of the quran. Before people sit down to argue over what the constitution or law should be they must have a reasonable idea as to what are goals they want to achieve or accomplish as an ummah and what are the guidelines so that no clauses are put in the constitution that are in conflict with the aims and the objectives of the constitution or each other.

    In other words a constitution needs to be written with declared objectives right at the top of the document. Since aims and objectives are the starting point of written constitution which decide which way the ummah is to move so all clauses that follow must be in line or consistent with these objectives otherwise the so called constitution or law will not be worth the paper it is written on. Once a constitution is structured with all its clauses as a complete document with all the needed laws with rights and responsibilities regarding institutions, office bearers and individuals and groups in the ummah then ummah as a whole must examine it with care and see if any mistake has been made in constructing this document before it is ratified and implemented by the ummah. If anything important is left out or something has been added which is not right then changes can be made in the constitution or law even after ratification but each time any change has been made it must be put before ummah and accepted by it otherwise the document will become invalid as a constitution or law. I have already explained what are the aims and objectives or goals set for ummah to accomplish and what are guidelines in my interpretation of the quranic text here and there so no point in repeating all this in here. One can see my interpretation of the quran HERE.

    The other important point to remember is that the quran is about three states of existence of muslims ie as individuals in any place in the world, as a community anywhere in the world and as a community within a kingdom of their own. Each of these three states of existence have their own requirements. Individuals are only required what they can do as individuals and community is only required what community can do as a community and a community in a kingdom of its own is required what it can do as a community in a kingdom of its own. In short there are very limited requirement for individuals but requirement increase when people become a community and they increase even more when the community has its own kingdom. It is because as people who accept deen of islam increase in their numbers their power increases and therefore their responsibilities also increase towards each other and towards rest of mankind. For example, an individual is mainly responsible for learning and educating oneself about all one can learn in one's life time as well as about learning the quran and only when one has learned deen of islam properly oneself one's responsibility increases for teaching it to others the best one can. It is binding upon more than one muslims to live together as a family fully supporting each other in every way and keep working to bring more and more people into fold of deen of islam. Once a few people come together they must organise and regulate themselves according the quranic guidelines. They must form a constitution to help them organise themselves and work out laws to help them regulate themselves in light of quranic guidelines as well as in light of ground realities that face them as per their situations and circumstances. From all this explanation it should be clear to people what deen of islam really is and what being a muslim actually means.

    When a muslim lives among the rest of humanity, one sees human world living in a terrible state of affairs because each person is tearing apart any other like an animal to get what one wants of the others. All this is result of ignorance, illiteracy and lack of proper education ie people are hardly any better than rest of animals therefore they choose to live by way of life based upon personal gains at the expense of each other. Out of this human population some one rises above others to try and give people some better direction ie a way of life based upon living for each other as a proper human community so that life could become somewhat better than what is already there. Since this person is part of rest of human race and is born into an already existing human population so he faces a lot of difficulties because he is challenging things as they are in order to change them the way one sees fit. This being the situation all those who benefit from things as they are, are going to become upset with him and are going to use all means at their disposal to keep things as they are. It is now up to people as individuals to decide what they support and what they oppose and the direction they take will decide their future as human population. This divides people into a few different camps. Ones that clearly support the change and others who clearly oppose the change and yet others who are undecided and some who play from both sides of the fence etc etc.

    Since divisions are already there in human populations due to rivalries and animosities so hatred and wars are also there therefore there is little that changes just for sake of new movement for ensuring well being of mankind. In other words any person who rises up in an already fighting population cannot cause any more damage to whatever is already there but can try and see if one can get rid of all this harm and destruction among people. This was the situation with messengers of Allah who tried to guide mankind out of their harmful and destructive mindsets, attitudes and behaviours based on harmful and destructive ambitions and desires against each other. When Adam was sent as a messenger by Allah people were already killing each other and chiefs were looking for a way out of this harm and destruction because they became fed up with whatever was going on in their societies. Same was happening when the final messenger of Allah came to save people from their own harms and destructions which they were already inflicting upon each other ie there were already wars on going all around arabia eg romans and persians etc were already busy fighting each other and even tribal people were at each other's throats in arabia itself.

    The quran tells us facts about human history but mullahs have masked the information given in the quran with their nonsense due to their ignorance and foolishness because they did no research and exploration on what the quran was talking about to find out but instead made up stories while sitting on their behinds. They have been telling people Adam was first man who was created by Allah directly without involving natural process of cause and effect. The quran on the other hand explains things in sense of designed development of things from a starting point onwards like a flower gradually starts opening up bit by bit till it has opened up fully. In other words Allah talks about gradual unfolding of his plan with time like blossoming of a flower or growing of a tree from its seed.

    The very first proper human community was gathered by Adam with help of his supporters who then brought about a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah. He was opposed by a chief named in the quran as Iblees. Iblees and his supporters did manage to bring down the kingdom Adam and his supporters brought about but they managed to rebuilt it. Attention should be paid to the fact that the quran talks about various stages of development of the universe and humanity itself. For example the quran talks about tree of life which we can call tree of evolution today. It talks about various stages of development of a human being even before the birth of a human being as well as stages of development of a human being after his birth till death. A clear proof that quran is talking about natural cause and effect process in natural world. Things have been created to observe already existing things and learn from them and do what they think is right for them to ensure their survival but humans have been created with maximum freedom for self programming as compared to all other living things. All this has been explained here and there in my interpretation of the quran so I will not go into detail of all that here.

    It should therefore be clear that deen of islam is not the problem but solution for problems that human beings have created for themselves through senseless interaction between themselves and therefore have ruined their environment. However by learning things and educating themselves about the real world realities and the revelation of Allah they can bring about the world the quran promises. The quran is a real plan for building a proper human community and therefore a kingdom in which all people have a blissful, dignified and secure existence with help and full support of each other. If that is what we want. If not then people are free to keep doing to each other as they are or have been since long past.

    Since security of people depends upon each other according to the quran and unless they agree to live peacefully for progress and prosperity of each other they cannot have any kind of security so all questions relating all kinds of security what if this and what if that become meaningless in context of the quran and deen of islam.

    For example, people raise questions about CHAADUR, BURQA or VEIL etc or does Allah require people to wear certain kind of dress? Before asking such questions one must make oneself aware of the fact that deen of islam has aims and objectives for mankind to accomplish so if something is needed for fulfilling its objectives then it is needed otherwise it is not needed because ways and means in themselves are not the objectives and it is the purpose that decide what is necessary and what is not. This is the porper context of understanding the commandment in the quran.

    Now coming to question of dress code, it depends upon what is actual security available to people in a human population of which one is a part. When there is war like situation in a population and each person is trying to dominate others by undermining them by all means at his disposal then all are put under siege by each other because all are worried what is going to happen to them the next minute and who is going to do them something really bad so all need to take maximum security measures to try as best as they can to stay safe from each other. In such a society no one will be happy to see anyone else because all spell danger for each other as predators and victims. However if a population has decided to live as a caring sharing family making sure safety and security of each other then all are relaxed and glad to see each other. Now when you feel threatened then you take measure that are appropriate and when you are feeling safe and secure then you relax your security measures as well. It is because in one situation you try your best to hide yourself from others as well as anything else you treasure because otherwise you are sure to lose it to predators or rivals. In the other situation you are relaxed so there is no need for running for cover. It is because in one situation everyone is there to take away whatever you have because they do not have that or just because they want to have something extra because they may need it if not today then may be tomorrow which may never come but that is the way people in such a society think about things. In the other society everyone has whatever others have so no one needs anything of anyone else because they gave each otehr what they have so no one needs to be scared of anyone else. Adam was told to bring about a human society wherein all could eat of anything (ie take part in doing anything) accept for things which could damage or destroy the proper human community.

    From my this explanation it should be clear by now how I look at deen of islam and why I do that and why I think mullahs have ruined this beautiful message of Allah by covering it up with loads of their nonsense. If one is really interested in learning deen of Allah then it is therefore necessary that people study the language of the quran and be a thinking people because the quran repeatedly invites attention of those who are thinkers to see what the actual message of the quran is and what it has on offer for mankind.

    When I talk against mullahs, rulers and money lenders I do not mean the scholarly works people produced are totally useless because they have a lot of very useful things in them which help us move forward if we could learn how to use those works. Dictionaries are very useful works for example, be they written by atheists, hindus, parsees, jews, christiasns, muslims or any other people. Likewise is the case with maths and sciences etc etc. The idea that only muslim mullahs know islam properly is a false idea. Book of Allah is for all human beings who are looking for guidance but nothing is easy in life so people do need to work at learning things including the message of this book called al-quran. This does not mean works of other people are not at all helpful in knowing about the message of the quran. None of us is born fully educated and we all learn from each other so exchanging ideas helps to know things better and to discover newer and better ideas.

    The most important point people who claim to be muslims or nonmuslims need to be aware of is, islam is a deen not a mazhab. The only people who accept islam as mazhab are rulers, money lenders, mullahs, their touts and supporters. I will try and explain why they do that and why they want all other people to do that.

    No messenger was sent by Allah but he worked for establishing deen of Allah not any mazhab. Mazhab is personal for individual but deen by its very nature demands a proper human community. The very idea that Allah sent messengers to guide mankind means that Allah wanted people to stick together for well being of each other as a starting point. This is why Allah created people into human relationships as interdependent so deen of islam is a program for mankind for accomplishing certain goals stated in the quran and there are also guidelines according to which these goals are to be accomplished. The quran is a foundation for a constitution and laws for forming a proper human community and bringing about a kingdom and maintaining it for proper development and progress of humanity so that it could thereafter accomplish other higher goals. This is why there is concept of ummah in deen of islam as well as of a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah.

    So people who do not accept islam as a deen are not accepted muslims by the quran because they do not accept the fact that law of Allah is supreme so they do not live by rule of law of Allah as a proper human community and instead live by rule of law of people by accepting the concept that man has right to rule over another man. This concept is all about creating negative divisions in humanity due to which there are rivalries and animosities therefore hatred and wars. It is because this way of life whereby one man rules over another is based upon personal gains at the expense of each other it is in direct opposition to a way of life advised by Allah which is for ensuring well being of all people as a proper human community according to guidance provided by Allah. This is why personal gains based way of life divides people into advantaged and disadvantaged or rich and poor or strong and weak groups and each tries to take undue advantage of the others leading to all sorts of troubles and problems among human beings. The reason such divisions occur is because people do not use their God given abilities and things as they should to help each other as a complementary society. Since they misuse each and everything provided by Allah they end up hurting each other instead of ensuring well being of each other.

    This is why Allah provided mankind with guidance and some people accept that guidance and support it while others reject and oppose it so mankind become divided into two camps a)muslims and b)kufaar. This leads to permanent struggle between people belonging to two main groups of people. Since people who work for well being of humanity do as told but their opponents do as they like therefore the human world is not the way it is supposed to be instead it is polarised by what people believe and do to each other. Since there is constant struggle between two groups of people who are following opposite ways of life therefore people do what they think will ensure dominance of their way of life over any other way of life.

    From here begins all sorts of warfare between people to ensure their dominance over each other. So each time Allah sent any messenger with his guidance and he succeeded in bringing people within his reach under the jurisdiction of kingdom of Allah, soon the kingdom was swamped after the death of the messenger by those seeking better life and the followers of the messengers failed to cope with situations they created for themselves by opening the gates for outsider far too much beyond their own capabilities. Once people within the kingdom became slack in implementing the deen of Allah properly and also let outsiders in, in great numbers, the kingdom turned into a chaotic place proving full of opportunities for ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking people who then spread in the kingdom of Allah the very beliefs and rituals they were used to. This handed over perfect opportunities for imperialists to hatch so many conspiracies within the kingdom that it fell apart and became what it was not supposed to be ie an empire based upon personal gains at the expense of proper human community.

    This is the history told in the quran if we interpret the stories related to messengers of Allah and the kingdoms they brought about. One cannot understand the quran by mere random verses and their explanations by mullahs. For example, ask yourselves what happen to kingdom of prophet sulaimaan that was brought about by prophet david? SHAITAAN is not a supernatural magical figurehead but a leadership which stands in opposition to guidance of Allah. SIHR does not mean magic the way mullahs tells us but merely covering of actual thing or masking it with something else to make it appear as the real thing which it is not. There is nothing in the quran about supernatural events other than the acts of creation and revelation. Make beliefs and useless rituals were invented and promoted by rulers, money lenders and mullahs to try to fool uneducated masses so that they could enslave them and keep them under their sway for use and abuse at will. This is why people always conspired against the messengers of Allah and his missionaries in order to stop them from spreading the actual message of Allah which is for ensuring well being of mankind.

    When people will start looking at works of opponents of deen of Allah in that context all fights between people will start making sense as to who is doing what and why. In order to try and confuse people, some try their best to show deen of islam is actually a man made thing. The question is, how do they do that? They do that by telling us all sorts of nonsense eg they tell us islam is not a deen but a mazhab. This is most severe attack one can ever carry out against deen of islam because merely by saying islam is not a deen they are telling us that people do not need guidance of Allah for knowing how they should live properly in this world. This idea therefore flies straight into the face of deen of islam and its actual followers yet those who claim to be muslims remain unaware of how damaging this idea of islam being a mazhab is for humanity as a whole. It means fights between people can never come to an end ever because if people are allowed to live as they like by each other then there cannot be any way out of this way of life based upon personal gains at the expense of each other. Something people in position of power want the most to continue for as long as they can help it do that.

    This is why anyone who accepts islam as a mazhab instead of deen is actually playing in hands of users and abusers of humanity. This is why it is a more dangerous way to attack islam than actually attacking muslims with dangerous weapons. It is because in this case one is telling people that harmful and destructive actions are good because they are ordered by Allah when the actual fact is Allah does not tell people to do anything that is useless or harmful for mankind. This is why people who have nothing at all to do with Allah and humanity support religions because that gives them opportunities to carry on with whatever they are doing ie using and abusing mankind in the very name of Allah. This explanation should help people see why rulers, money lenders and mullahs do what they do and how they do it with help of their touts and supporters.

    It has been explained already how messengers and missionaries of deen of Allah learn and teach deen of Allah and that is why they end up creating a kingdom based upon deen of Allah. A clear proof that each and every person in the kingdom of Allah knows the book of Allah because otherwise people cannot bring about the kingdom according to the book. None can form an organisation or a kingdom nor can one regulate one without having some sort of law. Even the tribal people had tribal customs to live by and they taught these customs to their future generations. A clear proof that no population can live without some sort of common code of life no matter how simple or how complex and sophisticated. A clear proof that messengers of Allah also brought about proper communities and kingdoms as per revealed programs, constitutions and laws for accomplishing set out goals according to provided guidelines.

    So anyone who thinks islam is not a deen but a mazhab is far far away from proper understanding of the message in the quran. Likewise anyone who has little or no proper understanding of the quran can never understand anything else that is attributed to Allah or any of his messengers or any of his people. It is because if a solid foundation is not there then there is no criterion for judging anything else. The real world realities and revelations of Allah provide one with solid foundation that one can examine for oneself. That is the only base upon which one can and should build the proper human community.

    This is why one will be very foolish to leave the solid foundation aside and try to build a proper human community on foundation of personality cults which themselves are not based on anything solid at all. This is why when Allah declared prophet ibraheem a good example to follow in following the commandments of Allah then prophet ibraheem asked the same about his children and he was told very clearly that only those people can be followed who actually follow the rule of law of Allah and only as much as they do that. So the main thing is not following of Abraham but what he followed as his imaam ie guidance of Allah. Nowhere Allah points out anyone as an exemplary character in his entirety in his own right because even messengers of Allah are not free of human errors. People are only supposed to support messengers of Allah so far as they are doing anything by the book of Allah. Way of life of messengers of Allah was not set-up by themselves but was told to them by Allah and it was up to them to follow it faithfully and they did except where they ended up making odd mistakes due to being human beings. This is why all concepts that people have created around personalities in the name of deen of islam are false. As soon as people will educate themselves properly about deen of islam they will give up all their nonsense beliefs and useless rituals and start doing what the quran actually requires of people to do so that its stated purpose and plan fulfils.

    People who attack concept of deen of islam only do so because they want to replace it with personality cults so that they could then use names of those people to add wrong things to deen of islam and thereby get their way. This is why beliefs of certain people are taken as guaranty of true islam whereas people are supposed to take the book of Allah as the criterion after it has been interpreted free of all contradictions as the book itself claims. Likewise when people opposing the book could not find any way to undermine the book of Allah they tried to attack the book by inventing other stories and mixing them up with existing stories about the prophets that were originally completely true in order to try to make them look credible. The same idea was expanded later in books of fiqh. This is why people invented five schools of thought in the names of people none of whom told people to follow them. It were rulers, money lenders and mullahs who tried to move people away from the quran by keeping them ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking with backing of imperial machinery as is always the case when people in positions of power decide to use and abuse others at will.

    From all these explanations in this post and elsewhere it should be very clear for all who have sense that not only the quran but all revelations sent by Allah were not only memorised by people but were also written down by them as well. This is why Allah did not start sending revelations till people had discovered ways of reading and writing. Revelation of Allah only began when man was able to think at a higher level ie man became self aware and aware of realities around him and sought guidance because he became a thinking human being. Story of adam and his people told in the quran is actually a true story but it has not been explained properly by ignorant and foolish mullahs because they are hardly that learned people. One can see how much self aware these people are never mind their awareness about realities of real world. This is why anyone who thinks deen of islam is that which is told by mullahs only exposes his own level of ignorance and foolishness about deen of islam.

    Word quran does means recitation but not just recitation as mullahs will have us believe. Word QUR-AAN comes from root QAAF, RAA and ALIF. This root revolves around concept of purposeful collection or gathering of something. Letter QAAF means monkey or anything like a monkey in some sense, letter RAA means head or anything like head in some sense and letter ALIF means a bull or somethinmg like a bull in some sense. So if we expand on meanings of each of these letters one can see we could end up with so many meanings of this root. This is why it has meanings like monthly periods, sperm collection in a womb, sect, faction, group, a generation of people, reading from a written text, recitation from memory of a written text, a written collection of some information for preservation, contents gathered in something in some form, time span, cycle, appointed time, to become with child, to gather together, to hold, to hold in, to know, to learn, to cause or enable something, discourse, the entire text of the quran, reading, chief, manager, managed, power, authority, staff, stick, to imitate, to mimic, to meddle, to fool , to tinker, to be agile, to be mischievous, to make fool of, to be clever etc etc.

    Word AL-QUR-AAN is a very comprehensive word. It means each and everything that serves its purpose in one or another sense. For short we can ask, why is the quran called AL-QURAAN? It is called AL-QURAAN because it is a recitation or proclamation or reading or writing or information or guidance or manifesto or program or constitution etc etc or any of these or all of these etc etc. In fact the whole text of the quran is merely explanation of what quran or deen of islam is. It all depends upon how detailed information one is looking for about the quran or deen of islam. This is what we find in dictionaries that people expand words as much as it serves their purpose and not that words stated in the dictionaries do not have any more meanings to add to these dictionaries.

    How people try to distort deen of islam? They distort deen of islam in different ways eg by bringing in concepts that are merely make beliefs and by bringing in rituals that are useless.

    Let us take the make belief that Allah sent his messengers with miracles. Can anyone clearly define what a miracle is? No. Can anyone prove that miracles are necessary for proving existence of Allah or that any claimant of messenger-ship from Allah is in actual fact a messenger sent by Allah? No. Why not? Because if miracles were necessary for proving existence of Allah or messenger-ship of a claimant of messenger-ship of Allah then where is any miracle for doing that for people of today? Not only that but there were no miracles for any people who did not witness them and particularly the later generations. If jesus showed some miracles to some people in some place then who showed any miracles to other people in other places where jesus did not reach himself and particularly after jesus? Today all people are trying to prove existence of God only through whatever texts and books they have. What does that tell us? It tells us very clearly that miracles were never needed to prove anything but this concept was invented by rulers, money lenders and mullahs to make fools of ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking people and they succeeded in doing that till today because ignorant, illiterate, uneducated and unthinking people still believe all sorts of nonsense they are told by their ignorant and foolish mullahs. This will keep happening till people educate themselves out of their ignorance and stupidity. The concept of miracles also contradicts the concept of end of messenger-ship of Allah because only prophets can show actual miracles in that case so these messengers then by necessity needed to be sent in each and every place throughout the world to show miracles which is not the case in real world that is before us. A clearly invented concept to derail the deen of Allah with help of a lot of nonsense, confusing and unending chains of explanations that keep going for ever but explain absolutely nothing at all. The question is, who invented this false belief and spread it among ignorant masses and why? It was work of joint groups of people whose interest this idea could serve ie rulers, money lenders and mullahs and they invented this idea because they did not want people to accept guidance of Allah just as they do not want them to do that even today and that is why they are spreading all sorts of nonsense to keep people away from serious thinking about life. If a people can go to so many wars to try to prevent people from going to deen of Allah then why will they not try to do that by all other means under their control eg establishment, mass media etc etc.

    How could they keep people away from deen of Allah by idea of miracles? To explain this point let us use an example of a child. Suppose a pair man and woman take away a child of someone else after his birth and keep telling him we are your father and mother till he is grown up, will the child ever know his real parents even if they were sitting next to him? No. It is because the child has no reason to miss his real parents because he thinks he is already with his real parents. Only if he somehow finds out that people he is living with are not his real parents that he will look at all other people thinking any of them could be his real parents. Likewise if people are indoctrinated with wrong ideas then those idea unless challenged, a person cannot find out what the reality may be. So if a people are indoctrinated with idea of miracles or supernatural human beings then unless people are challenged they will always be expecting such kind of man from God as his messenger and if anyone came and just read out things out of some book they will not accept him as a messenger of God because in their mind a man of God can only be a man who can do miracles and can act supernaturally. This is how rulers, money lenders and mullahs made fool of people by setting up personality cults in order to bar message of God in the name of God. It was a very clever idea because people always had problems understanding it for what it was worth ie it was a fraud.

    This is why the quran explains things to help people understand how things work in natural world naturally not supernaturally. The quran only puts two things as acts of Allah ie the creation of the universe and revelation of his message. This is why the quran emphasises the need for education and thinking, observation and proper understanding of things in so many verses. The explanation given here clearly explain that jesus was not a fatherless child, nor he did any miracles attributed to him and that all such claims related to jesus that involve supernatural acts are false according to the quran and people who are saying wrong things about jesus or for that mater any other messenger of Allah are in serious trouble with Allah and humanity.

    Who decides what deen of islam is and how? Allah, people or both?

    In my view deen of islam is decided by Allah and people both. Allah decides deen of islam in the sense of his dictation as to what it is and people decide it through their understanding of the message of Allah.

    The main point to note here is that Allah knows what he is talking about because he has much more knowledge than people can ever have. Mainly because it is his purpose and plan for humanity. So the one who creates or designs something for some purpose knows better than anyone else what he expects from it or for it. However user must also learn to use the thing properly so that one can benefit from its use instead of getting harmed by it through its misuse even if by mistake.

    Since it is people who need to make sense of what Allah has revealed so what do they need to know before they can understand the message of Allah?

    Since Allah has revealed his message in a human language so it is of vital importance that people learn things about the human language eg about its origin, development and how it works. Unless people come to know about these facts they cannot look at the message of the quran in its proper foundational context. A human baby when he is born has no sense of language therefore so long as he does not first learn a human language he cannot participate in a human society properly. Think about yourselves from the day you were born till you became what you are. What could you really do before you made some sense of the world in which you were born? How did you come to make sense of the world in which you were born? How did you come to speak the language you speak and do things that you do? Could you be of any use to yourself or anyone else if you remained the way you were born ie ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, untrained and having learned no skills of any sort? This is why anyone who has no interest in learning things that are important is useless for oneself as well the proper human community. Anyone who tells you anything on the contrary is only telling you falsehood, so do not listen to any such person who wishes to keep you ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, untrained, unskilled and an unthinking person. Such people even if they happen to be your parents, they are your enemies. Parenthood is not about bringing a child into this world but to ensure as much as it is within their power to put the child on to road of success by giving all kind of support they can give to the child that helps him succeed in life. Knowledge is very important factor in all this and therefore language.

    Once people come to know things about human language then the next vitally important thing is to know about the purpose of revelation of Allah because it is purpose of creation and revelation that helps understand the plan of Allah because the plan of Allah revolves around purpose of his creation and revelation. No one with any sense does anything haphazardly like a person who lacks any sense. Allah is AL-HAKEEM the wise one so purpose and plan of Allah has to be such that reflects his wisdom. So when people will have learned about his purpose and plan properly they will come to the conclusion that Allah is truly wise in actual fact.

    Therefore people should stop wasting their time on doing senseless things senselessly instead of focusing on making efforts to know things properly and then do them properly after knowing them in order to fulfil the purpose and plan of Allah as being part of it.

    This is why anyone who accepts islam as a mazhab instead of deen is actually playing in hands of users and abusers of humanity. This is why it is a more dangerous way to attack islam than actually attacking muslims with dangerous weapons. It is because in this case one is telling people that harmful and destructive actions are good because they are ordered by Allah when the actual fact is Allah does not tell people to do anything that is useless or harmful for mankind. This is why people who have nothing at all to do with Allah and humanity support religions because that gives them opportunities to carry on with whatever they are doing ie using and abusing mankind in the very name of Allah. This explanation should help people see why rulers, money lenders and mullahs do what they do and how they do it with help of their touts and supporters.

    The question arises how did rulers, money lenders and mullahs managed to derail deen of Allah from its rails? They invented an idea called SHAANE NAZOOL as a rule for interpreting the verses of the quran. It is an invention whereby mullahs told people that such and such surah or verse of the quran was revealed for this or that or the other reason. The idea was instilled in minds of people that Allah was prompted by people to tell things so he revealed the message to tell them what they wanted to know. This idea is a severe attack on integrity of the quranic text because that means the quran is an incomplete message in the sense that things people needed or going to need in the future but they could not ask the messenger of Allah about them remain unanswered and therefore unknown. Along with that another idea was invented and that was called concept of AL-NAASIKH WAL MANSOOKH ie the idea of abrogation. Another serious attack on the integrity of the quran. By telling people to accept this idea mullahs were actually telling people to accept that Allah was not the knowledgeable being because he kept changing his mind about things every so often. Within 23 years of life of messenger of Allah according to them Allah changed his mind about things so he abrogated some verses from the quran and replaced them with some new ones. If within such short period of 23 years the guidance of Allah failed to work then how could it last forever when so many changes in the world were yet to come because the world was created to carry on changing always and forever? This is how deen of islam was covered up by rulers, money lenders and mullahs through cooperating with each other through interpretations based upon these like rules. This shows the length to which some people went to try to get deen of Allah out of their way so that they could be left free on their own to use and abuse humanity at will.

    It has been explained already how messengers and missionaries of deen of Allah learned and taught deen of Allah and that is why they ended up creating a kingdom based upon deen of Allah. A clear proof that each and every person in the kingdom of Allah knows the book of Allah because otherwise people cannot bring about the kingdom according to the book of Allah. None can form an organisation or a kingdom nor can one regulate one without having some sort of law. Even the tribal people had tribal customs to live by and they taught these customs to their future generations. A clear proof that no population can live without some sort of common code of life no matter how simple or how complex and sophisticated. A clear proof that messengers of Allah also brought about proper communities and kingdoms as per revealed programs, constitutions and laws of Allah for accomplishing set out goals according to provided guidelines.

    So anyone who thinks islam is not a deen but a mazhab is far far away from proper understanding of the message in the quran. Likewise anyone who has little or no proper understanding of the quran can never understand anything else that is attributed to Allah or any of his messengers or any of his people. It is because if a solid foundation is not there then there is no criterion for judging anything else. The real world realities and revelations of Allah provide one with solid foundation that one can examine for oneself for its truth by seeing how realistic it can be for its stated purpose. That is the only base upon which one can and should build the proper human community.

    This is why one will be very foolish to leave the solid foundation aside and try to build a proper human community on foundation of personality cults which themselves are not based on anything solid at all. This is why when Allah declared prophet ibraheem a good example to follow for people he also told them that he is only good example in following the commandments of Allah. It is because when he asked Allah about the same for his children ie that they too should be followed by people, he was told very clearly that only those people can be followed who actually follow the rule of law of Allah which makes it very clear that the main thing is not following of Abraham but what he followed as his imaam ie guidance of Allah. Nowhere Allah points out anyone as an exemplary character in his entirety on his own independent of guidance of Allah because even messengers of Allah are not free of human errors. Had Allah put forth anyone on his own as a person to be followed then that will have given birth to personality cults in abundance. So people are only supposed to support messengers of Allah so far as they are doing anything by the book of Allah and not when they suffer a human error. In that case others can bring to their attention the laps if they become aware of it. The way of life for messengers of Allah was not set-up by themselves but was told to them by Allah and it was up to them to understand it properly and follow it faithfully and they did so except where they ended up making odd mistakes due to being human beings. This is why all concepts that people have created around personalities in the name of deen of islam are false. As soon as people will educate themselves properly about deen of islam they will give up all their nonsense beliefs and useless rituals and start doing what the quran actually requires of people to do so that its stated purpose and plan comes to its fulfilment.

    The quran can be used both for guidance and misguidance. It depends on how one has learned to use the quran to see whether one has learned to guide oneself and others or misguide oneself and others.

    Originality of a message and its consistency is as important as its purposefulness.

    Messengers of Allah had original messages from Allah and they were consistent and purposeful. So long as ummah does not read the quran with these points in mind and starts questioning what its mullahs and ignorant, illiterate, uneducated or unthinking molvies teach it, things will not take the turn for the better.

    Today people need to know the quran as we have it is original or not. It is because if we have any doubt at all that the quran we have is not original then no matter what we claim to be, we will not accept anything the quran tells us with our hearts and minds which seems to go against our personal vested interests. So the question is, how many of us human beings have bothered to learn how to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the quran we have is original?

    See how people attack deen of islam by telling us the quran we have is not original.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9lIuUjPs0
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHCeYSvazY4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDU0MelOOSc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6udiRzFO4Sk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwo5xpO390k
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsh1ZyXnMT4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFK5u5lkhA

    It was duty of people who proclaimed the quran to humanity that they also prove to mankind its originality. Since we- who claim to be missionaries as a proper human community or an ummah- have stopped doing that it has given the stick in the hands of others to beat us up with. This is why instead of people coming to deen of islam are leaving it openly or secretly. Instead of reason and consistency we have adopted force where we can use it to try to enforce what we claim deen of islam to be which we ourselves have no idea is consistent with the quran or not.

    Unless we start studying the quran the way we should, this situation therefore cannot improve in our favour and will keep on deteriorating. Instead of doing our God given duty the way we are told by God, we are busy doing things we want to do and the way we want to do them disregarding what Allah told us to do in the quran and the way to do it. No wonder we are not succeeding and are facing failures one after the other.

    If we want things to work for us then we must stop doing whatever we are doing and think and do things we are told by the quran and exactly as we are told to do them. Only then we can be sure to succeed because if we will do what is told by the quran and the way it told us to do it then success is guaranteed.

    The questions therefore are,

    1)Have we bothered to find out what the quran wants us to do?

    2)Have we bothered to find out the way the quran wants us to do those things?

    3) Have we prioritised whatever we are supposed to do?

    4) Have we worked out any effective action plans and have we put them in place?

    5) Are we properly organised and regulated for accomplishing whatever we are supposed to do?

    If we have done all this then we are ready to face the world but if we have not done all this then failure is bound to be the result of whatever we do and that is what is before our very eyes. So no surprise there, is there?

    Therefore if we want the world to be a blissful, dignified and secure place for our future generations then the quran is the only book that can lead us there for sure and no other scripture, belief or deed against it can bring such success in this life or in hereafter.

    So we should stop wasting our time by listening to nonsense of mullahs and their touts and instead learn how to study the quran by ourselves. If we already know the quran then we should help others do the same. We should not attribute any kind of nonsense to Allah and his messenger in the name of deen of islam. We should try our best to ensure what we are claiming as deen of islam is in actual fact deen of islam and not a make belief or a useless or a damaging action.

    So we should ensure we know the quran is original, the message we are getting about the quran from any source is purposefully consistent with the quran. If we will accept anything other than that then we are not only digging our own graves but also of our future generations as well as of rest of humanity. We were supposed to be a people of knowledge and practice to educate humanity but we failed very badly and the result is in front of us that others have taken over the leadership of humanity and are leading it to its sure destruction due to following the way of life based upon personal gains at the expense of humanity instead of following the way of life advised by Allah for ensuring the well being of mankind as a proper human community. No wonder therefore why the ummah is target of wrath of rest of the world because it betrayed the deen of Allah and humanity. Time to repent and reform or end up destroyed by continuing on the course which landed it in this situation.

    You really need to shorten your posts...the majority of people aren't going to read two long posts...

    I have the same argument for you as I do for Jadz...you both insult scholars yet you both act as Islamic authorities...ie everyone is wrong except me...

    As for attacking the Quran for not being original the problem you find yourself in because of your hadith rejection is you cant even answer any questions about how the Quran was formed because the only way we can determine history is through sources you view as illegitimate...as I stated we don't even know any of the Sahaba without Sira...and you reject the authenticity of these sources...

    Quran does mean recitation...and as I stated from a logical standpoint how can a book be complete when revelation is still going on?...you and Jadz are continuing with this illogical position...she disappeared when she realized how ridiculous her claim is and you keep responding with huge posts without addressing the core issues...

    Here is a simple question and please respond succinctly...

    Was the Quran in written form complete before the Prophet died...or after?...and please provide proof for your answer...

    Furthermore your point on miracles makes no sense...

    Explain to me why I should believe in your book?...at least Muslims for the most part try and make a 'miraculous' argument...ie this whole linguistic argument...what is your argument?...also how do you explain the 'inimitable' claim when suggesting Islam makes no claim to be miraculous?...

    You fail on the fact that Islam does claim to be miraculous...and if one takes away that claim there is absolutely nothing to separate Islam from the thousands of other belief systems out there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    You really need to shorten your posts...the majority of people aren't going to read two long posts...
    Dear brother shaykh, I am not worried whether people read what I write or not because that is for others to decide for themselves. It all depends on how much motivating factor is one's own curiosity and how much effort one is willing to put into one's study of things. Just because most people may never benefit from work of a person does not mean one should not produce whatever one can. It is good enough that someone somewhere does. Likewise not each and every piece of writing by a person gets read by all but so long as someone does it is well worth it. Why should it mater to anyone whether other people decides to benefit from anyone's work or not? If anything, people should be encouraged to see what one has come up with may be it is of some benefit for them. After all not all people produce things and those who do if we will keep discouraging them or knock them down then what will become of humanity regarding its development and progress? Moreover people can only produce whatever they can and the way they can, we as individuals cannot please all nor cater for all this is why we need to work together as a proper human community. Of course others if they think a work can benefit people their way then they too should get involved and modify things their way and try that way as well. It is because different things work for different people because not all of us are at same level or stage of learning. In fact some people are better at explaining things than others and some people are better at learning than others, so all need to carry on the way they can. The bottom line is, anyone who wishes to make proper sense of something must learn a lot about it or one will not be able to make proper sense of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    I have the same argument for you as I do for Jadz...you both insult scholars yet you both act as Islamic authorities...ie everyone is wrong except me...
    I do not insult scholars but I do not worship them, it is because deen of islam does not teach personality cults. I accept all things by anyone which make sense on basis of proper foundation and reject all else no matter who says it. From my posts it should be obvious to anyone that I do not accept anything even in the name of Allah never mind people. I will advise all not to be personality worshippers including your good self. Appreciate and encourage all human effort that is for benefiting mankind and oppose all that is harmful and destructive. That is the way to go. This is why it matters not what anyone does unless it matters one way or the other ie it harms us or benefits us. If something benefits then we all must get involved and help its increment but if it harms then we all must get involve and try and stop it, the sooner the better. In either case we must be as sure as it is humanly possible so that we do not end up encouraging harm and destruction of humanity and put a stop to what could be of huge benefit for mankind to ensure well being of people.

    We have been over this already as to who is a scholar and who is not and I have explained all the points you have raised in this post in my detailed writings above which means you have not read them therefore you cannot understand things from my point of view and that is why your response is the way it is. So if you must respond then please at least read what I have written and then respond so that it is consistent and so that I could benefit from your valued opinion.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    As for attacking the Quran for not being original the problem you find yourself in because of your hadith rejection is you cant even answer any questions about how the Quran was formed because the only way we can determine history is through sources you view as illegitimate...as I stated we don't even know any of the Sahaba without Sira...and you reject the authenticity of these sources...
    I do not reject any source of information but I have explained how to accept or reject things that are attributed to Allah and his messengers or his books or any other person or thing. Once you understand the criterion, like me you too will have no problem in accepting or rejecting things. If you read my above posts, I have explained already how other pieces of information are to be interpreted which seem to contradict concrete reality. Why must we interpret reports in hadis books to prove the quran was written after the death of the prophet when concrete reality is otherwise? Had the messenger of Allah left people without the complete quran both in memorised and written form then could people ever produce a uniformly memorised and a uniformly written copy of the quran? This is the question that needs to be answered if we must interpret the hadith reports that it were individual people who produced such a copy not the prophet. See if you can. It is because it is impossible to do that therefore to accept this idea is nothing less than extreme stupidity. The case will be yet more ridiculous if people had differences between them already and the quran was left to them for its compilation, can you imagine the consequences? We ought to end up with as many different qurans as there were people. It is because that was not and is not the situation so the only reason for that is because the original source of the quran gave us the quran the way we have it both in written and memorised forms. If you want to take it as a miracle, the quran was revealed at a time when arabic was not yet developed enough for writing a text properly as we have it today so that it could be read from the writing alone.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Quran does mean recitation...and as I stated from a logical standpoint how can a book be complete when revelation is still going on?...you and Jadz are continuing with this illogical position...she disappeared when she realized how ridiculous her claim is and you keep responding with huge posts without addressing the core issues...

    Here is a simple question and please respond succinctly...

    Was the Quran in written form complete before the Prophet died...or after?...and please provide proof for your answer...
    Where did I say the quran does not mean recitation or proclamation etc etc. Please read what I explained so that you have better sense of where I am coming from and why so that your response is consistent and of benefit for others to see. To recite something you must have it in memory at least and to read it you must have it in written form. If you read my posts above you will come to realise that the quran was such a piece of information that could not be written down uniformly from memory alone nor could be read uniformly from the written text alone the way it was originally written down. Why not try it yourself or ask an expert mullah who is not a haafiz of the quran to take a copy of the quran from the sana texts and start reading it. Please avoid arguing over things that I know for sure but you do not. First learn and then argue if you must. If I wrote each word in each of the sentences in each of the stories in a book as a couple of consonants what will you make of them if you were not already familiar with the text and the information it had in it? Moreover think about it that if you gave the same text to others to make sense of it what will they make of it as individuals? Try this by yourself to see what I am saying and why I am saying it.[/quote]


    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Furthermore your point on miracles makes no sense...

    Explain to me why I should believe in your book?...at least Muslims for the most part try and make a 'miraculous' argument...ie this whole linguistic argument...what is your argument?...also how do you explain the 'inimitable' claim when suggesting Islam makes no claim to be miraculous?...

    You fail on the fact that Islam does claim to be miraculous...and if one takes away that claim there is absolutely nothing to separate Islam from the thousands of other belief systems out there...
    My claim is explained in the links I provided to my interpretation of the quranic text. The quran is beyond reproduction because whatever people needed to know for their guidance has been told already in the quran due to vast knowledge of God and none can come up with any better alternative ever because you cannot reproduce something that is already in existence ie it is impossible. If Allah has already told us the best possible way of life to live by then none can ever come up with any better way of life than the one already told by Allah in the quran. I cannot come up with a book like the quran for an alternative way of life that is best for mankind nor can you but if anyone can then please let us have it right here so that we could accept that way of life and put the copies of quran in all the libraries and museums with big notes telling everyone this is a book full of falsehood because then we do not need it for our guidance because we will have a better book, do we? However if we cannot then we have no choice but to accept the quran is word of almighty and start learning it the way I have explained it and start spreading the information that people need to know to be a proper human community.

    regards and all the best.

  54. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mughal View Post
    Dear brother shaykh, I am not worried whether people read what I write or not because that is for others to decide for themselves. It all depends on how much motivating factor is one's own curiosity and how much effort one is willing to put into one's study of things. Just because most people may never benefit from work of a person does not mean one should not produce whatever one can. It is good enough that someone somewhere does. Likewise not each and every piece of writing by a person gets read by all but so long as someone does it is well worth it. Why should it mater to anyone whether other people decides to benefit from anyone's work or not? If anything, people should be encouraged to see what one has come up with may be it is of some benefit for them. After all not all people produce things and those who do if we will keep discouraging them or knock them down then what will become of humanity regarding its development and progress? Moreover people can only produce whatever they can and the way they can, we as individuals cannot please all nor cater for all this is why we need to work together as a proper human community. Of course others if they think a work can benefit people their way then they too should get involved and modify things their way and try that way as well. It is because different things work for different people because not all of us are at same level or stage of learning. In fact some people are better at explaining things than others and some people are better at learning than others, so all need to carry on the way they can. The bottom line is, anyone who wishes to make proper sense of something must learn a lot about it or one will not be able to make proper sense of it.



    I do not insult scholars but I do not worship them, it is because deen of islam does not teach personality cults. I accept all things by anyone which make sense on basis of proper foundation and reject all else no matter who says it. From my posts it should be obvious to anyone that I do not accept anything even in the name of Allah never mind people. I will advise all not to be personality worshippers including your good self. Appreciate and encourage all human effort that is for benefiting mankind and oppose all that is harmful and destructive. That is the way to go. This is why it matters not what anyone does unless it matters one way or the other ie it harms us or benefits us. If something benefits then we all must get involved and help its increment but if it harms then we all must get involve and try and stop it, the sooner the better. In either case we must be as sure as it is humanly possible so that we do not end up encouraging harm and destruction of humanity and put a stop to what could be of huge benefit for mankind to ensure well being of people.

    We have been over this already as to who is a scholar and who is not and I have explained all the points you have raised in this post in my detailed writings above which means you have not read them therefore you cannot understand things from my point of view and that is why your response is the way it is. So if you must respond then please at least read what I have written and then respond so that it is consistent and so that I could benefit from your valued opinion.


    I do not reject any source of information but I have explained how to accept or reject things that are attributed to Allah and his messengers or his books or any other person or thing. Once you understand the criterion, like me you too will have no problem in accepting or rejecting things. If you read my above posts, I have explained already how other pieces of information are to be interpreted which seem to contradict concrete reality. Why must we interpret reports in hadis books to prove the quran was written after the death of the prophet when concrete reality is otherwise? Had the messenger of Allah left people without the complete quran both in memorised and written form then could people ever produce a uniformly memorised and a uniformly written copy of the quran? This is the question that needs to be answered if we must interpret the hadith reports that it were individual people who produced such a copy not the prophet. See if you can. It is because it is impossible to do that therefore to accept this idea is nothing less than extreme stupidity. The case will be yet more ridiculous if people had differences between them already and the quran was left to them for its compilation, can you imagine the consequences? We ought to end up with as many different qurans as there were people. It is because that was not and is not the situation so the only reason for that is because the original source of the quran gave us the quran the way we have it both in written and memorised forms. If you want to take it as a miracle, the quran was revealed at a time when arabic was not yet developed enough for writing a text properly as we have it today so that it could be read from the writing alone.[/quote]



    Where did I say the quran does not mean recitation or proclamation etc etc. Please read what I explained so that you have better sense of where I am coming from and why so that your response is consistent and of benefit for others to see. To recite something you must have it in memory at least and to read it you must have it in written form. If you read my posts above you will come to realise that the quran was such a piece of information that could not be written down uniformly from memory alone nor could be read uniformly from the written text alone the way it was originally written down. Why not try it yourself or ask an expert mullah who is not a haafiz of the quran to take a copy of the quran from the sana texts and start reading it. Please avoid arguing over things that I know for sure but you do not. First learn and then argue if you must. If I wrote each word in each of the sentences in each of the stories in a book as a couple of consonants what will you make of them if you were not already familiar with the text and the information it had in it? Moreover think about it that if you gave the same text to others to make sense of it what will they make of it as individuals? Try this by yourself to see what I am saying and why I am saying it.[/quote]




    My claim is explained in the links I provided to my interpretation of the quranic text. The quran is beyond reproduction because whatever people needed to know for their guidance has been told already in the quran due to vast knowledge of God and none can come up with any better alternative ever because you cannot reproduce something that is already in existence ie it is impossible. If Allah has already told us the best possible way of life to live by then none can ever come up with any better way of life than the one already told by Allah in the quran. I cannot come up with a book like the quran for an alternative way of life that is best for mankind nor can you but if anyone can then please let us have it right here so that we could accept that way of life and put the copies of quran in all the libraries and museums with big notes telling everyone this is a book full of falsehood because then we do not need it for our guidance because we will have a better book, do we? However if we cannot then we have no choice but to accept the quran is word of almighty and start learning it the way I have explained it and start spreading the information that people need to know to be a proper human community.

    regards and all the best.[/QUOTE]

    Ok we'll move on from the scholar debate...i agree we have discussed it to death...

    As for your second point...how do we examine your claim?...how many Qurans are available from the Prophets time?...0...so when you state its a concrete reality there is absolutely no evidence for this...for all we know the Quran of today is completely different to the one of today...you don't have multiple Qurans as a means of comparison...

    And again you dismiss the simply logical point of how can a book of revelation be complete before someone has died...

    At least Sunnis and Shias accept this simple point and present the codified Quran perspective...Chacha Kashmiris point about lack of rebellion is a lot more credible than yours...

    Lol at you cant reproduce something already in existence...what does that even mean?...if it is the inimitable argument then i challenge anyone to play football like Ronaldo...inimitability as a standard is a rubbish argument...

    As for whether we have a better book...we have 1000s of religions...you have no basis for explaining why yours is any better...

  55. #455
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    ^^

    Different people could be convinced by different methods because our knowledge, perception, intelligence and the way learn could be different.

    So perhaps there is no universal way to explain your point and/or argument to convince others.

    And thus perhaps the notion of trying to convince others that "my religious book is better than others" is a fruitless endevour.

    Again, this may not be a universal rule but the answer to question whether a religious book A makes better sense to me than religious book B or C should come from within oneself.

    And the way to do is;

    "Read the religious text (no matter what religion it represents), understand its message and ask yourself this question; Is it the truth?
    An honest and truthful response from your heart that only YOU can feel should give you the worth of religious so that you compare with others".


    A scholarly debate to compare two or more religious and put them in order from the best to worse is really not the right way. The answer should come from within you. Perhaps no human may not convince you unless you read, understand the message and truthfully answer your own question; is it the truth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Ok we'll move on from the scholar debate...i agree we have discussed it to death...
    That is good brother shaykh but you must accept that my point of view was proper only because I took a stand on basis of logical consistency of an explanation rather than who offered the explanation. It is always the best explanation about something that makes it valid and not necessarily who is offering an explanation about something. Formal education is ok to a level but actual education is more important which only comes from wide and deep rich life experiences. One has to be very curious, highly inquisitive, good at research and exploration as well as experimentation because otherwise training or learning skills remains seriously flawed. A lot of us are armed chair generals and not battle hardened ones in actual battlefields. We hardly take interest in learning but any who do a lot of them only go as far as theoretical learning and run away from going through experimentation ie most of us human beings are lazy and crazy people.

    This is why it is very difficult to motivate people and revelations are only for motivating people into required actions which could lead to fulfilment of set out goals. Motivating material can only inspire a people who have their curiosity intact. I hope you do not bring up the very same into discussions again and instead help educate people out of it. It is necessary to do that so that people stop supporting each other blindly. The quran condemns blind following repeatedly. The main point is, it condemns blind following of our own very ancestors who brought us into this world and raised us. If the quran condemns blind following of even our own parents and blind support of our own very brothers and sisters or children then who else could be of more important than that in our lives? The quran does not tell us, this is book of Allah and you are hereby told to follow it blindly. Instead it tells us to ponder over verses of the quran and only follow and support what is proper and ensures well being of mankind as a proper human community.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    As for your second point...how do we examine your claim?...how many Qurans are available from the Prophets time?...0...so when you state its a concrete reality there is absolutely no evidence for this...for all we know the Quran of today is completely different to the one of today...you don't have multiple Qurans as a means of comparison...
    There are ample copies of the quran available even today in various libraries and museums throughout the world from last 1400 years. All scholars worth the name agree the writing style of the time and carbon dating and other ways of dating them take some quranic copies to be as old that they can be taken as from the time of the prophet. Even if that was not the case my point still stands because the writing style in itself is sufficient evidence that the quran we have is the original quran both in reading and in writing. It is because during the time of the prophet arabs did not have a proper way of writing a long piece of information like we have in the form of the quran. The quran is the very first book of its kind that arabs wrote down and it is due to the preservation of the quran they modified the language in order to reduce dependence on reading something from writing with help of memory. It is because Arabic writings in those times did not have vowel markings and there were no dots to distinguish letters from each other. Imagine writing a text in english without vowels and also using the very same symbol for more than one consonants as well.

    If we leave out vowel marks and only write consonants then that creates one kind of problem but if we leave out dots as well then some consonants become totally mixed up. Arabic words are written in two shapes of letters to begin with a)as whole letters and b)as stumps. The stumps are then used at the beginning of a word or in the middle of a word. This point is very important to understand to be able to make sense of rest of my explanation.

    As whole letters if there are no dots then BAA, TAA and SAA become indistinguishable ie all three use the very same symbol. The same is the case for JEEM, HAA and KHAA, DAAL and ZAAL, RAA and ZAA, SEEN and SHEEN, SWAAD and DWAAD, TWAA and ZWAA, AIN and GHAIN. When letters are written as stumps in the middle ie a letter is joined from both ends by other letters then in addition to what has been told more letters end up like other letters eg letter NOON also becomes like letters BAA, TAA and SAA, so four letters use only one symbol. Likewise letters FAA and QAAF become indistinguishable as well. If we then bring in letters that become indistinguishable at the beginning of words then letters LAAM and YAA also join the rest of them ie letter LAAM and YAA also use the very same sign.

    One should therefore will be able to clearly see what kind of problem people faced with that kind of writing style. Such writing style demanded that information be memorised before writing and remembered always before reading it from the written text otherwise if one person wrote a piece of information and it was given to another to read who did not know the actual information then one could only decode a short piece of information not a very long one like the quran. The other point therefore is that no text could be written uniformly when dictated from memory in different places to different people nor any text could be read properly from writing for memorising uniformly by different people in different places. It is because arabic is such a language that is a)root based and b)it is latest of major languages of this nature. What does that mean? It means it borrowed loads of words from other languages therefore it ended up having more than one root for so many words in its diction or vocabulary. So people of arabia in different parts of the area spoke it and wrote it differently from each other. For example, some wrote word SIRAAT using letter SEEN and others wrote it using letter SWAAD and yet others used both ways of writing the word. Likewise some used letter SEEN in word BAST and others used letter SWAAD and some used both of them. So one root of word SIRAAT is seen, raa and twaa and other is swaad, raa and twaa. Likewise one root of word BAST is BAA, SEEN and TWAA and other is BAA, SWAAD and TWAA. This is like writing a word in english with letters s or c. Now if a word which can be written with either of the letters is always written everywhere in the text through out the world the very same way instead of being written differently as expected then what does that mean? It means if copies of the quran were not exact copies of the written copies of the quran then that becomes an impossible thing to explain. If you or anyone else can explain then we can argue over originality of the quran any further otherwise any other variations in the text of the quranic copies have already been explained as result of modification in the writing style of the language or human errors or notes people wrote in their personal copies of the quran for their own reminding of certain points which could be taken as the part of the text of the quran if this point was not clarified. This is why they do not prove errors in the quranic text and since this explanation is comprehensive no scholar on earth can prove otherwise or those who oppose the idea of originality of the quran tooth and nail will have done it already. This is why you must either accept this explanation and stop arguing against the originality of the quran or explain the point I have raised in some other way that is better than my explanation. Imagine how many errors we ought to expect in each and every copy of the quran that ever existed if what you claim was true ie the quran was not memorised and copied in writing from the prophet of Allah. There ought to be millions of errors if not billions in existing copies of the quran of the nature I explained but if we do not find those kinds of errors in such great numbers in the existing copies of the quran then those definitely expected errors being absent are telling us something which you are not prepared to accept despite this being the proven fact. My case is solid as a rock if you like because I can explain away your arguments and evidences but you cannot explain the same way the point I am raising and nor can anyone else. This is why I call it concrete proof of the originality of the quran. You cannot find a way around this argument because the truth speaks for itself.

    As for all other errors, they came about due to copying errors that occur even today even though we have printed copies ie some printed copies miss out vowel marks here and there, some miss out dots here and there, some miss out words here and there, some miss out verses here and there, some even miss out pages and some have additional pages due to errors that result due to mistakes made during book binding process. So you cannot say o this copy of the quran is different because this one has two surahs missing while the other one has same surah twice in it. To argue over copying, printing and book binding errors one has to have idea of what kind of errors are possible by people in these processes. The point to remember is Allah has preserved the message through the people themselves despite their fallibility or suffering from human errors.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    And again you dismiss the simply logical point of how can a book of revelation be complete before someone has died...
    I am lost at your point. Are you telling me messenger must be dead before delivering the complete message? If that happens then who will know what the complete message was or deliver it after him? You are surprising me with your logic, so what can I say other than pleas explain your point in a way that I could make sense of it in order to respond appropriately. Stop frightening the life out of diplomats. What has completion of a message to do with death of a messenger? If I write a letter to my friend it will be a complete letter and the postman will not have to die for taking my letter and delivering it my friend. It is up to me to whatever I write to my friend and not up to the deliverer of my message. The quran as we have it is a complete message that was delivered by the messenger of Allah while he was still alive. Anything contrary to that does not stand to reason in light of originality argument about the quran. So all reports that you are depending upon need to be reinterpreted by you and others who use them to attack the originality of the quran otherwise explain away the originality of the quran argument and then state your case. The gate is completely shut to attacking the originality of the quran and all I have done is explained it to help people understand the mechanism that shuts that gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    At least Sunnis and Shias accept this simple point and present the codified Quran perspective...Chacha Kashmiris point about lack of rebellion is a lot more credible than yours...
    Well it is your right to accept or reject whatever suits you, I can only explain what makes sense to me and how it makes sense to me. If it does not make sense to you all I can do is explain it further to a degree but that is all I can do and rest is all up to you. You have not put forth any solid argument with concrete evidences in my view to change my mind about originality of the quran.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Lol at you cant reproduce something already in existence...what does that even mean?...if it is the inimitable argument then i challenge anyone to play football like Ronaldo...inimitability as a standard is a rubbish argument...
    Please do read what I write before responding so that you could argue against it properly. I am making a point that something that has already happened for a purpose cannot be made to happen again for the very same purpose. Anything you do therefore will have to be different in one sense or the other from what you have done already. Nothing can happen repeatedly in the same sense at the same time. Even a repeatable experiment is not the same because it is a different experiment be it of similar nature with similar factors and similar outcome. Things only happen once and rest can only be copies of the original and we all know that original is original and copies are copies. However my other point is that why anyone will write a book like the quran which tells the same thing for opposing it? Why Allah will ask people to produce something like the quran if they can if he did not mean to put forth the alternative way of life than the one he proposed or advised that was equally good or even better? Here Allah only means to assure people that the quran is true word of Allah because of the way of life he told people to live by so that by living that way they could end up in blissful, dignified and secure existence as a proper human community. The whole challenge is that you cannot produce any such road map that could rival the quran or undermine it. The quran is only inimitable because the information it provides lead to a particular end and not because it has some words in it that have no purpose. So you need to understand what the quran is saying and why before telling me the quran is imitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    As for whether we have a better book...we have 1000s of religions...you have no basis for explaining why yours is any better...
    I have explained why deen of islam is the only way of life worth following because therein rests well being of mankind as a proper human community. See if you can come up with any scripture or religion that can make logically consistent sense and is therefore able to deliver what the quran promises to deliver if people understood it properly and followed it faithfully. This is what distinguishes the quran from rest of scriptures and deen of islam based upon it in comparison to any way of life people have adopted to live by. You are not on the right footing if you are dismissing something you have not been able to understand to begin with. The question for people to ponder over is, why is it that what I have explained about the quran has not been explained about it by others on this forum when such information comes from already existing works on the quran by muslim thinkers? It is because people fell into personality cults and are trapped in there by themselves. No one can get them out of there other than they themselves and that is only possible if they will start working on the quran and deen of islam for knowing what it is all about instead of blindly following each other like sheep. I cannot force anyone to study the quran in detail but can only share my findings which some may like and support other may dislike and oppose for their own personal reasons which they themselves know better than me.

    regards and all the best.

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    To deliberately misinterpret and misrepresent message of quran is dangerous, why?

    It is very dangerous for humanity to deliberately misinterpret and misrepresent the message of the quran because the quran itself carries many warnings in it. The context of the message of the quran is very simple in this regard ie make proper sense of the message of the quran and follow it faithfully and you are guaranteed blissful, dignified and secure existence in this liofe as well as in here after as a proper human community. Avoid it, ignore it, misinterpret it or misrepresent it then you the mankind are in such a big trouble that you cannot even imagine.

    As I have explained already in detail how the quran should be understood, it also seems necessary to explain why the quran should not be understood through sources of lesser importance than the quran itself.

    Scientific way of understanding the quran is requirement of the quran itself. It is because the first source of information for humanity is its life experiences based upon its God given brains, senses and other provisions without which human beings cannot know a thing let alone understand the message of God. This is an undeniable and unchallengeable fact that human beings cannot know what logic is what consistency is unless they first understand things in the real world.

    This being the case the quranic interpretation therefore has to be based upon facts and not fictions since nothing is as authentic as facts before our senses and our logically consistent interpretation of facts therefore interpreting the quran independent of fact is just turning the quran into a fiction. This is why the quran must not be interpreted wrong way round or the quran will not make sense no matter how hard we try make sense of it that way. Failing to make sense of the text of the quran has not just serious but fatal consequences let alone it landing us human beings in blissful, dignified and secure existence.

    The other main reason for not interpreting the quran the wrong way nor accepting its interpretations based on wrong way is that such interpretations by muslims provide nonmuslims with reasons to criticise the quran so instead of people accepting the message of the quran ignore it and ridicule it. Not only that but even educated muslims themselves become doubtful about claims in the quran and therefore start doubting the message of the quran thinking it is just a made up stuff and therefore a waste of time to try to live the way it tells as explained by molvies who are ignorant of actual facts about the real world realities.

    A most important question for muslims to consider is, how do nonmuslims look at the quran and messenger of deen of islam if we look at the quran through hadis for example?

    Their argument in that case is very simple that if the messenger of Allah understood the quran the way his mindset, attitude and behaviour is depicted in the hadis reports then that is exactly what he was told to carry out by the quran and because a lot of stuff in hadis books is questionable therefore the character of prophet and authenticity of the quran also becomes questionable. It is because then authenticity of the quran becomes dependent upon hadis works which are human works in their origin.

    So it is time that molvies and their followers start realising what they are actually doing when they try to push the idea of interpretation of the quran through hadis or questionable historical accounts.

    This is why muslims must accept the understanding of the quran through facts and not fictitious stories as basis for proper understanding of the quranic message. If we accept facts as basis for the interpretation of the message of the quran then there is nothing wrong with accepting hadis reports or
    historical accounts that do not contradict facts otherwise we have no choice but to reject them as fictional.

    People who do not accept quranic message based on facts cannot convince nonmuslims for the truth of the message of the quran ever. This is why mullahs never enter open and decisive debates with nonmuslims because they already know they have no solid grounds to stand upon which clearly distinguishes the quran as the unique scripture in the world. If we want worldwide ummah then we need to establish a solid ground for ourselves before we can take message of the quran to the rest of the world in an effective way that can produce results that really matter because solid ground has to be solid enough that when it is put to the test it proves its worth by standing to reason or logical consistency.

    Unless we do all this we stand to lose educated people to nonmuslim world as education takes roots in our muslim states while gaining back mainly only emotionally disturbed people who are looking for support instead of bringing us support because they cannot due to being emotional wrecks already themselves. It is because nonmuslim way of life only suits people who can compete in their societies effectively and that means people who have strength to do that. So we are bound to become more and more collection of rejects than an ummah that is strong enough to face the ruthless nonmuslim world head on with logical consistency.

    We who claim to be muslims therefore need to become like sir syed, farahi, iqbal, jinnah and parwez than stay ignorant fools unable to express strength of our deen of islam effectively. This is why my work on the quran must be taken seriously by those who have concern of ummah at heart as well as of wider human population.

    So long as we do not interpret the message of the quran properly and help others understand its message properly, animosity between human beings will remain intact and all sorts of wars will continue and grow in intensity between muslims and nonmuslims as well as among muslims themselves. It is because the very ground that can unite muslims and nonmuslims is also the only ground that can bring unity among muslims as well. So it is up to ourselves whether we want our world for our future generations to be a world Allah wants us to struggle for or the opposite. This is why we can bring about a united, peaceful, progressive and prosperous world by being a proper human community based upon guidance of Allah or a world that is much more dangerous than the one we ourselves inherited from our ancestors.

    It is very important for all people to realise that none can understand anything at all without going through process of learning by way of direct interaction with things. This being the case, how can people claim they know the quran when they have no idea about real world realities that the quran talks about?

    1)Is it not true that people are born knowing nothing at all? If it is then where does their knowledge come from if not from interaction with things in the real world?

    2)Is it not true that Allah has given people brains and senses and bodies and provisions as well as his revelations so that people could first learn sense through things by way of interaction with things and once they have learned sense then they could get guidance from his revelations as to how to live properly by way of using provided things properly?

    3)Which sect mullahs have explained deen of islam from the quran on basis of real world realities as they were supposed to according to the quran itself? If they did not then why people are following them?

    4)So is it not time yet for this ummah to educate itself and give up foolishness and stupidity or does it want to continue its needless painful suffering yet longer?

    5)The quran does not teach humanity dependence upon God beyond provisions and guidance for their use. The rest is up to people not God. A very clear message of the quran for humanity. You can complain all you like and as quiet or noisy as you like or cry to God all you like day and night but in the end it is people themselves who are made responsible to do things for themselves and each other as proper human community. So what are you doing to bring about the proper human community so that kingdom based upon guidance of Allah could become a reality so that people could have blissful, dignified and secure existence?

    6)All mullahs are devils in disguise who do not tell the truth about the deen of Allah. They are fooling the born ignorant and that is criminal. So get out of nonsense of mullahs and start using your own brains if you want to succeed in this life as well as in here after. Remember, people who do not learn to use provisions of Allah properly can never succeed in here or in hereafter. Success and failure is given in the hands of people themselves by their creator. So you are your own saviours. It is you in trouble so save yourselves with help of each other as you are supposed to as a proper human community. So do what needs to be done and stop wasting time in doing things that lead nowhere and waste time instead and by the end lead us into self destruction.

    7)So when are you going to learn and start relying upon yourselves instead of looking to God who told you already what he had to tell you in his book? So first become sensible by getting needed life experience and then read it to get needed guidance and then get up and do what needs to be done that is proper deen of islam according to the quran. Anything other than that you read in translations of the quran are works of mullahs to make fools of people for their own reasons so find out what those reasons are or suffer the consequences for staying ignorant fools.

    Mullaism must not be taken as deen of islam because it is not and no way any of the mullahs or their slaves can prove their nonsense as deen of islam. It is time for ummah to educate itself out of ignorance and stupidity. It is time to become literate, educated, trained, skilled and thinking because future only and only belongs to highly knowledgeable, highly thinking and very hard working people. If there is no logical consistency in an explanation it can never be true. Make beliefs and useless rituals are opposite of deen of islam and by adopting such stupidity the ummah has lost its rightful place in the world. To regain its lost rightful place in the world this is the only way or as time goes on ummah will keep on facing tougher and tougher situations that will ruin it yet more. For more please see HERE. It is a must read for all regardless muslims or nonmuslims.

    Let us take first thing first. In the link provided I am offering an alternative fact based explanation to what mullahs have been feeding us over the centuries ie many made up stories about the verses of the quran as to what they mean. To validate or legitimise their nonsense they attributed their stories to the prophet of Allah because otherwise they had to answer how did they come to know what they tell us and that needed a lot of hard work in form of research and exploration for explanation which mullahs are not bothered with. With this set up they managed to fool the ignorant and the simple minded but this sort of approach does not wash with people who are better informed. Why not? Because it is truth that can be proven true not falsehood. Even if one attributed anything to God or his messenger or his scripture it has to stand to reason and consistency test to prove valid. It is because words attributed to God still need to be explained and understood how did they get their meanings which people say they have. These meanings still need to be rooted in reality otherwise they mean nothing at all. In other words, words need to be connected to the real world realities for their proper understanding because people cannot understand them otherwise and this is why the quran uses reality based explanation after explanation as examples to help humanity understand things. It is because otherwise it is like someone is talking to them in a language they never knew. This is how falsehood can be caught through testing. This is why it is possible for humanity to say what can or cannot be from God with reasonable certainty.

    The second thing is that I am not including criticism of stories told by mullahs because that is a not proper use of my time at the moment otherwise I could have dismantled mullahs' stupidity and then put forth my explanation. Moreover had I done that then writings will have become yet longer. In order to help one understand my approach let me ask one, what is origin of your knowledge? How did you come to know things that you know? You will see that one has no choice but to agree that our knowledge comes from our brains and senses therefore it is based upon our life experiences. This is why our knowledge is factual. Now this being the case, can we therefore claim that any other knowledge can be as factual as that about the past or future or anything we did not experience directly? No. This is why be it the vedas, the avesta, the bible, the quran or the hadith it is only some collected information passed down to us generation after generation. We cannot be certain about its truth unless we devise a way to test things and they prove reliable or true.

    So any information through any third party is dependent upon a reasonably reliable testing method for its reliability value or validity. This is why we cannot use any hadith report for anything till we are reasonably sure it is true and historical sources are yet more problematic unless we have archaeological evidences to back them up ie in some cases we do need corroboratory evidences. Our personal interpretations of facts are always much more powerful than any other source of information if they are logically consistent and sound. This is why when we explain facts and they make sense then they prove to us sufficiently reliable. It is because the world in which we are born works according to set laws as I have explained it in the main explanation. This is why anything that contradicts known facts cannot be true at all even if it is attributed to God because God is not expected to tell us nonsense. Since proving originality of the quranic text is of utmost importance therefore explanations that prove the text of quran original cannot be contradicted by mere make beliefs handed down to us by our ancestors be they in the name of Allah or his messenger etc.

    Now if we look at the copies of the quran that are still existing from different times and places and they are many in numbers and they can be carbon dated, we can see how people wrote the quranic text in them. In these copies of the quran there are no such variations as we are told in the hadith books. Should we accept what is before our own eyes or should we accept hadith reports? Instead of justifying the kind of variations we find in the copies of the quran on basis of scribal errors in hand written copies or printing errors in printed copies or book binding errors where that is applicable etc etc, it is claimed Allah revealed the quran with textual variations. Can one believe that Allah who wanted to unite humanity will give people a recipe for divisions? Because variant text are foundation for divisions and that is why the quran tells us that if it was from other than Allah we ought to find many things in there at variance with each other or differences or discrepancies therein. This is why such hadith reports are misinterpreted or false because they or their interpretations were invented to provide justifications for variations in the quranic text in the existing copies of the quran. This means these people were not aware of the facts how languages developed over time and this is why there are variations in all major languages because they heavily relied on each other for their origin, development and progress. My explanation explains away all these variations in a way that is backed by archaeological findings and it is fully consistent logically.

    Allah did reveal the quran in one uniform reading and in one uniform writing but people spoke and wrote a language as I explained it and they did that because that is the way languages came about and developed. One has to realise that Allah despite variations in the human languages managed to reveal the message that was uniform both in sense of memorised information and in form of written text. Hadith reports at most are mere historical accounts which were written by individuals for their own reasons so if they telly with facts they are ok but if not then just because they are based on isnaad (chains of narrators) does not make them sound in every way on their own. Particularly if they contradict facts before us. Justifying variations in the quranic text is in fact attacking the authenticity of the quran at its very root.

    The quranic text is as solid as a rock and that is why I proved it by showing how arabic language came about and developed over time with help of its ancestor and sister languages. One cannot find any evidence of arabic language being in use before hebrew but if anyone has any evidence please let us see it. In fact hebrew as far as I know is ancestor of arabic not its descendent. If anything hebrew is thousands of years older than arabic. Mullahs tell us prophet adam used to speak arabic in paradise and that he was the very first human being. It is because no mullah has carried out any research and exploration to discover things the quran talks about otherwise we muslims will not be in the state of ignorance and stupidity that we are but we are not going to accept it, are we? It is because if we accept we lack in factual knowledge because we never carried out any research and exploration work to discover things then who is going to carry out needed research and exploration work that validate the quran because it is all haraam since all knowledge is already in the quran and the hadith regardless we need to know it or not. It is enough to say we believe and we don't need to verify anything to have faith based on reasoning that is logically consistent.

    As far as I know arabic is a most recent of the root based widely known languages otherwise the copies of the quran we have today will have been written in a better way right from the day one. No dots on letters is proof of arabic not being developed fully yet for mass communication and publication. This is why we needed hufaaz of the quran as well as its scribes so that with help of each other they could preserve the quranic text as it was supposed to be and they did and we can see it with our own eyes even today. Relationship between hifz and scribing eased as better way of writing was discovered in due course so later copies had in them what earlier copies did not ie dots and diacritical marks. Even today if an arab did not already have the quran committed to his memory he will not be able to read it if dots were not there in the text. In fact one cannot read even the daily newspaper written in such a style of writing let alone the quran despite the fact that it is their mother language. The same will happen in case of urdu and faarsi languages. So can we see why we have no choice but to accept arabic was not an old language just because some ignorant mullah says so having nothing solid to back it up with. Why is it that we find a lot of inscriptions in hebrew and various other languages but not any in arabic if arabic was the oldest language as our mullahs tell us? It means our historical accounts have been either invented in some cases or that they have been deliberately misinterpreted by mullahs to suit themselves or both. So if we want to be true to our deen of islam we must give up mullahs' nonsense or as time goes on we will end up proving our own worst enemies.

    This is why we must come to know that to rely on information that does not fit proper explanation is not the right way to look at things. Also if people differ about something they can never become united again unless there is something there to unite them. This is why if muslims were already divided after the messenger of Allah passed away then no one could unite them merely by force. If they remained united it is only because they agreed upon program, goals and guidelines provided by the quran. However if we say that the quranic text itself became a source of controversy then divisions based upon different qurans could only increase not decrease. Today muslims are fighting with each other only over interpretations of the quran, imagine what could have happened if anyone deliberately tried to change the actual text of the quran in any way. Because things did not go bad in the ummah on basis of deliberate changes in the text of the quran as will be expected back then due to some people trying to make deliberate changes in the quranic text, it is proof enough that no one even tried to eliminate any existing controversy over the variations in the actual text of the quran. So can you see why knowing the truth about the originality of the quranic text is of such high importance. This solid explanation shows that some hadith reports have been mistaken, invented or misinterpreted to undermine the originality of the quran and its authenticity therefore such accounts are unreliable in themselves so they cannot be used against the originality of the quran to undermine it.

    Coming to miracles, what miracle is more important than Allah dropping the quran from heavens in hands of each and every person in perfect state? If we have such problems with the quran itself then what other miracle can be justified? None. If any miracle was ever needed at all it was people having all the things they needed to preserve the divine revelations perfectly as they were revealed from day one. When the quran tells us Allah taught man reading and writing, it doe not mean Allah became a human being and made adam sit in his lap like a child and taught him things like a child. It only means he provided human beings with things of need and abilities to learn by observing what Allah had created already before human beings came on the scene. So people had all they needed for learning and teaching and doing whatever they were supposed to do to fulfil the purpose of Allah for which he created them. All this involved natural processes or cause and effect chains and no miracles or supernatural interventions.

    There is no point in going on other issues till one fully accepts the quran is original with full understanding as to what makes it original. It takes time to absorb information to reach the depth of understanding needed for proving the quran original. This is why I explain things and leave people to ponder over it rather than confronting them because that seems rude and that is not the way of doing things according to the quran. Wisdom takes time to make its way into minds of people and to make its presence felt but only if a person wants to become a wise person and makes the needed effort. Just because mullahs tell us the quran says Allah guides and Allah misguides does not mean they are telling us the truth because they may not even know what it means themselves. Allah guides through his revelations and mankind guide themselves by enabling themselves to be able to receive guidance from the revelations of Allah by educating themselves to the level required for that purpose. All this does not happen instantly. It is also very important that you realise the fact that arabic is based on multi root based words as I have already explained it with solid reasons in the main article. I also explained in detail why words have very many meanings in root based languages including arabic. So if any report does not fit this explanation, it is not worth paying attention to and may be it was a mistake or invention to make an attempt at trying to make the text of the quran controversial. In any case no such report can succeed against stated concrete facts.

    The idea that the messenger of Allah was illiterate is monstrous because it shows Allah chose for his work someone not worthy of it and that Allah did not choose other more able people for his mission at the time. Again as I already explained, mullahs wanted to prove miracles by portraying the prophet as an illiterate person because they had no idea at all that the quran is not a human work due to the information it contains. Instead of understanding the text of the quran they looked for cheap miracles ie here is a book from an illiterate man. They had no sense to realise that even an illiterate man could have been given a written book by some one else who was literate so how does having a book regardless in memory or in writing prove its God's word? It is because any information that comes from human beings cannot go beyond the knowledge of human beings. It is because the quran goes beyond human knowledge that is why it is not work of human beings.

    One has to read the verse which mullahs tell us means, if Allah had revealed the quran on a mountain it will have shattered into pieces out of fear. Allah already spoke to all things when he planned them and said be and nothing shattered but the universe came into being. The actual thing the verse is telling us is very different ie should Allah reveal the truth in the quran to any highly knowledgeable person who wishes to know it, he will be humbled due to what it contains because the knowledge in the quran is beyond that which a human being could come up with. This is very difficult to prove for mullahs so mullahs thought let us turn to made up stories of miracles to prove the deen of islam true. This is how they moved ummah away from proper deen of islam and its practice and people who were leaders of the human world gradually turned like animals lagging far far behind rest of the human world.

    It is therefore time to retrace our steps back to the original deen of islam which was brought by all the messengers of Allah right from the time of prophet adam till the time of prophet muhammad. There is no more book or messenger from Allah after him and this is the concrete proof. It is because there is no any prototype new language in the world that could parallel ancient languages in which olden scriptures were revealed just like the quran. The quran even today is far far ahead of its time if we learned to read it as it should be read for its proper understanding to fulfil its purpose.

    Root based languages were good for revelations of Allah due to their flexibility as I explained already in detail because fixed languages could not accommodate divine messages due to their precision. It is a fact that root based languages are very flexible not non-root based languages. Since the quran was for much longer time than any other revealed scripture therefore it needed most flexible language that it could get at the time. Some arabic roots have thousands of meanings not just one or two. Likewise there are thousands of words that could be used to express the very same idea. This is why as humanity develops and discovers more and more facts people will be able to interpret the quranic verses more and more precisely. So the discussion about the originality of the text of the quran has much much more for us to learn from than we can think of. I hope this addresses our concerns about the issue of originality of the text of the quran as well as finality of the prophethood of the final messenger of Allah.

    Deen of islam is based upon educating each other to help each other understand the message of God and to turn it into a reality. However violence is present in our world so one has to learn how the quran explains it to put it into its proper context. I have explained things in detail in my links above for that reason so that people could see how things fit together. Moreover I have provided a link to my interpretation of the quranic text, so for anyone who wishes to know the message of the quran it will be a good idea to see what I have explained already and what I have left out. All issues which we think only need a short answer in a word or two does not work because each person who explains things sees them in his own context.

    I am mainly discussing origin of knowledge and how we get it. For example, could we learn anything without having brains? Could our brains learn anything without having senses? Could our senses be useful if the conditions needed for them to work were not present? For example for a human eye to work we need light as well to see and we also need things which the eye could see otherwise what will be the point of having a brain or an eye or light etc if there was nothing there for eye to see? The same will be case for all other things we sense with our senses. For things to be useful there has to be a grand plan in the mind of the creator so that all comes together nicely.

    This is why I am explaining human beings could not learn anything if they did not have life experiences to help them learn and keep building upon their banks of information and their understanding. For example what will be the point of giving a new born baby a book to read when he does not even have the awareness of his own very existence yet? So first thing we need is self awareness and for that we do not need revelation of God but only our brains, senses, bodies and provisions so that by fooling about with things in our environments we become aware of ourselves as well as other things through our interaction with them. Only after becoming self aware and aware of other things our attention is drawn to higher being when we think about origin of things, their existence and purpose as well as the way they work to fulfil that purpose. This is when we look for information that we cannot get through our senses alone or merely by calculations of our own brains.

    Once we realise there is more to life than meets the eyes, we start looking for information that could satisfy our curiosities. From here on people take various routes ie some look for God by so called spiritual methods to see if they could experience presence of God that way and others look for messages from God. Those who do not become self aware or aware of real world realities do not bother with idea of God because they have not reached the stage of thinking which initiates this kind of search process in minds of people. So if you are not looking for God then you are not going to find him. It is because you only find what you look for and for which you use the right methods. Most people therefore remain at animal level of thinking or even worse ie they are born ignorant and remain ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, untrained, unskilled and unthinking therefore useless for themselves as well as others or even worse they cause troubles for themselves as well as others.

    What this explanation should make people realise is the fact that so long as people remain at animal level of their existence, their mindset, attitude and behaviours is such that it is only fit for animal kind of life. This is why as human beings evolved from tree of life first they were only humans in their physical appearance but not in shape of mind. This is why they lived on basis of survival of the fittest. However interaction between people made them learn from each other as well as other existing things by observing them and so people have been gradually building on that knowledge and have been changing their mindsets, attitudes and behaviours accordingly. Since people behaved like animals or worst so obviously they inflicted each other with terrible harms and destructions. All this helped them learn and be better and when they reached self awareness and awareness about other things God sent them revelations in order to guide them from then onwards when they could make use of that knowledge. Since then knowledgeable people have been trying to get others to see sense and stop living like animals. However, people are people so they are still at it but time will come when human beings will be what God created them to be ie great creatures manifesting glory of their creator. All this unfolding of plan of God is going to take time just like a huge tree that grows out of a tiny seed gradually.

    Here one may ask but why God did not create people fully knowing things already? To understand the answer one has to learn why God created things and human beings in the first place. It is because God is a living being and he wanted to express himself so he decided to express himself in forms of creations and revelations. Since God wanted to be appreciated by effort of things themselves so he created human beings with abilities to learn and do things as they pleased and created all else to facilitated mankind in doing that. Since people had to know about God by their own efforts rather than being programmed robots so being born totally ignorant they had to learn each and everything from scratch. To help people God created all other kinds of non-living things and animals and programmed them to a much greater degree than human beings and gave human beings ability to observe other things and by doing that people have been learning and doing things ever since. As people learned more and more they appreciated God more and more so they continue. This is why science is part of the quranic text and this is how it is part of the quranic philosophy because the quran tells people to observe nature and things in it to learn from that and do things that need to be done as detailed in the quran so that goals set by God for people could be fulfilled.

    All this should help one understand the origin of violence ie God created things for various purposes and when they act as they choose to act violence could result because that is the way world is created by God to function so that the purpose of God for creating the world could become fulfilled. It is not God who is carrying out violence but things he created act that way however he provided them with means to be able to do so if they so chose. So even though God does not want people to hurt each other but some people who remain ignorant about revelation of God think otherwise and disregard his guidance. As such people decide to continue living like animals because they do not know any better and they do not want to know any better therefore those people who have become learned also are forced to control antisocial elements in human society. If such people do nothing at all then things will be yet worse than they are. This is the context in which the quran explains existence of violence in the world.

    All this needs detailed explanation and understanding therefore people should go through my interpretation of the quran so that they could see how to make sense of the quranic text. God has created man in his own image ie a little god if you like. Glory of God will become manifest in due course as humanity prepares itself for establishing many great things yet unthinkable. We may think we know quite a lot but our knowledge is much less than our generations to come who are going to stand upon our shoulders and reach the skies yet unknown to mankind. Human being are created to travel throughout the universe to see creation of their creator and see how wonderful creator he is. One day man will grow up mentally so much that he will witness glory of his creator with his own eyes. The quran is such a book that is yet unknown for what it actually contains in its pages. It is because the people who claim to be its followers are not yet learned enough to be able to explain it. The day they become a learned people in actual reality things will be very different. The quran is like no other scripture in the world as I understand it. This is why people will find a lot of help in my interpretation of the quran if they went through it. Particularly the way people should try to make sense of the quranic text.

    The quran and hadis literature is misinterpreted and misrepresented by mullahs on behest of rulers and money lenders to stop people from thinking and taking appropriate actions for ensuring well being of mankind and to stop such element in human society as use and abuse it instead of ensuring its well being.

  58. #458
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    Another Question:

    is it possible for a sunni to know whether a person is shia muslim just by name/surname etc. ?

  59. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by niishaa View Post
    Another Question:

    is it possible for a sunni to know whether a person is shia muslim just by name/surname etc. ?
    Sort of...in theory but not necessarily there might be more Shia's called Ali, Hassan or Hussein...but there are plenty of Sunnis also with these names...

    Sunnis dont really hate any guys from early Islamic history whilst Shia's hold certain characters as villains...so you most definitely won't find Shia Abu Bakr's or Yazids for instance...or Aisha...

    In short there are certain names only Sunnis would have...all names are possible with Sunnis...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Sort of...in theory but not necessarily there might be more Shia's called Ali, Hassan or Hussein...but there are plenty of Sunnis also with these names...

    Sunnis dont really hate any guys from early Islamic history whilst Shia's hold certain characters as villains...so you most definitely won't find Shia Abu Bakr's or Yazids for instance...or Aisha...

    In short there are certain names only Sunnis would have...all names are possible with Sunnis...
    Thanks. Also In pakistani do shias wear any special attire/dress etc that would make us think someone is shia muslim

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  63. #463
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    TOLUE ISLAM TRUST a better site for learning about deen of islam but it is going through development and reconstruction at the moment.

    http://islamicdawn.com/

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    ^ Has this become your storage thread?...

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    You can't drink

    You can't smoke

    You can't have a girl friend

    You can't have sex before marriage, you can't masturbate either

    You will burn in hell if you don't pray 5 times a day

    People that want to walk away from the religion have to be punished by death

    Gay people have to be punished by death to I think

    People who have "unlawful" sexual relations have to be stoned to death

    If you steal your hands have to be chopped off

    There's no room for any kind of mistake, if you don't take the punishment for your mistake in this life you will be punished in the after life. That involves various special grave punishments designed for specific misbehaviours etc and off course there is the hell fire punishment to




    Still though, the concept of God and Worship is quiet clear and it makes sense so I believe in Allah and the prophets. But there's stuff I don't agree with, in particular all the punishments. I wish there was a bit of leniency.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    You can't drink

    You can't smoke

    You can't have a girl friend

    You can't have sex before marriage, you can't masturbate either

    You will burn in hell if you don't pray 5 times a day

    People that want to walk away from the religion have to be punished by death

    Gay people have to be punished by death to I think

    People who have "unlawful" sexual relations have to be stoned to death

    If you steal your hands have to be chopped off

    There's no room for any kind of mistake, if you don't take the punishment for your mistake in this life you will be punished in the after life. That involves various special grave punishments designed for specific misbehaviours etc and off course there is the hell fire punishment to




    Still though, the concept of God and Worship is quiet clear and it makes sense so I believe in Allah and the prophets. But there's stuff I don't agree with, in particular all the punishments. I wish there was a bit of leniency.
    Just a few corrections...

    On smoking there is difference of opinion (ikhtilaaf)...

    You indeed can't have a girlfriend but you can keep concubines...

    Same with no sex before marriage...concubines...and masturbation is like smoking...makhruh to haram...

    People that walk away from the religion are generally killed...although Abu Hanifa holds the view that women must be imprisoned until they repent...Muslims who do apostasise are also given the opportunity to repent...ie lie to save their life and then obviously keep their disbelief private in order to preserve their life...

    Homosexual sex is punishable by death but lesbian sex is punishable but is less bad than zina...the punishment is tazeer ie discretionary...odd rule right?...

    People who commit adultery are to be stoned to death...

    Your hands are only cut off if you steal out of greed...if the state hasn't provided for you and you steal cos youre hungry then you wont have your hand cut off...it is the states responsibility for you to be adequately fed...remember of course that is ok to loot and pillage when you invade another region...stealing is not allowed within your own state...

  70. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Just a few corrections...

    On smoking there is difference of opinion (ikhtilaaf)...

    You indeed can't have a girlfriend but you can keep concubines...

    Same with no sex before marriage...concubines...and masturbation is like smoking...makhruh to haram...

    People that walk away from the religion are generally killed...although Abu Hanifa holds the view that women must be imprisoned until they repent...Muslims who do apostasise are also given the opportunity to repent...ie lie to save their life and then obviously keep their disbelief private in order to preserve their life...

    Homosexual sex is punishable by death but lesbian sex is punishable but is less bad than zina...the punishment is tazeer ie discretionary...odd rule right?...

    People who commit adultery are to be stoned to death...

    Your hands are only cut off if you steal out of greed...if the state hasn't provided for you and you steal cos youre hungry then you wont have your hand cut off...it is the states responsibility for you to be adequately fed...remember of course that is ok to loot and pillage when you invade another region...stealing is not allowed within your own state...
    Concubines? general slaves or slaves of war? Either way I don't agree with that.

    Sex before marriage is not allowed it's haram although I don't know the difference between haram and makroh, i guess makhruh is like a lesser evil but you're still eligible for a punishment? or perhaps there's just a difference of opinion. Don't know what;s wrong with having a girlfriend or masterbating, you're not killing anyone.

    Yeah the law is quiet clear on apostates to, i disagree with it and the homosexual/lesbian punishments.


    Just a question, all these punishments etc where did they come from? are all these punishments based on what is written in the Quran or are they laws made by Men?

    Also privately the Prophet Muhummad would show mercy don't you think? there's that story where he told the woman who confessed her sin to keep quiet about it but she wanted to be punished for zina or unlawful sex.

    Say I make a mistake, do I have to go to an Islamic court of law and tell them to whip me etc to abolish me ? or suffer the consequences in the grave and after life if I don't. Anyhow one can try and repent but what's the use when you commit that "mistake" again, maybe you just don't agree with that law but you still feel guilt because you're breaking rules.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    It's pretty obvious why sex before marriage is haraam.

    As for concubines or slaves of war. Yes, Shaikh Yasir Qadhi does a good job of explaining that I think. Watch from about 12:30 minutes.



    "And [remember] when your Lord proclaimed, 'If you are grateful, I will surely increase you [in favor]; but if you deny, indeed, My punishment is severe" - Surah Ibrahim (14:7)

  72. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watsupdoc View Post
    It's pretty obvious why sex before marriage is haraam.

    As for concubines or slaves of war. Yes, Shaikh Yasir Qadhi does a good job of explaining that I think. Watch from about 12:30 minutes.

    Sorry here's the video. Watch from about 12.30ish.



    "And [remember] when your Lord proclaimed, 'If you are grateful, I will surely increase you [in favor]; but if you deny, indeed, My punishment is severe" - Surah Ibrahim (14:7)

  73. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    Concubines? general slaves or slaves of war? Either way I don't agree with that.

    Sex before marriage is not allowed it's haram although I don't know the difference between haram and makroh, i guess makhruh is like a lesser evil but you're still eligible for a punishment? or perhaps there's just a difference of opinion. Don't know what;s wrong with having a girlfriend or masterbating, you're not killing anyone.

    Yeah the law is quiet clear on apostates to, i disagree with it and the homosexual/lesbian punishments.


    Just a question, all these punishments etc where did they come from? are all these punishments based on what is written in the Quran or are they laws made by Men?

    Also privately the Prophet Muhummad would show mercy don't you think? there's that story where he told the woman who confessed her sin to keep quiet about it but she wanted to be punished for zina or unlawful sex.

    Say I make a mistake, do I have to go to an Islamic court of law and tell them to whip me etc to abolish me ? or suffer the consequences in the grave and after life if I don't. Anyhow one can try and repent but what's the use when you commit that "mistake" again, maybe you just don't agree with that law but you still feel guilt because you're breaking rules.
    Muhammad has concubines of his own that he attained through war...he married the likes of Safiyah after he murdered her whole family including her husband...

    He had a slave sent to him like Mariyah the copt as a tribute...

    And it is also legal to purchase concubines but it is haram to enslave Muslims within the Islamic state...

    Makruh is no punishment...its not liked by the Prophet by Allah but it is permissable...

    Relations between men and female are regulated...forget a girlfriend...it is haram to free mix...when a man and woman are alone the 3rd in the room is shaitan apparently...so no female friends either...you can mix with women when you are buying something or when you are receiving an education or medical treatment...or doing dawah...

    Muhammad was a complicated man...sometimes he was merciful...sometimes he wasnt...couldnt give you a definitive answer...

    Repentance in public is either genuine repentance or done for your own safe keeping...the idea of the state is to eliminate ideas which could corrupt so say the homosexual if he repents he can live...but deep down he will always be a homosexual...that is his test after all...to fight his nafs (desires)...

    I guess the best advice regarding rules you dont agree with is realise that things wont always agree with your ration but you take them cos you believe in the source...the predominant strain of Islam which came after the Abbasid period prioritised doing as to the wondering of why...naturally though it will be harder to follow rules you disagree with or find difficult...doing things you find easy is easy...its the things you find difficult like the girlfriend etc that will true tests for some...

  74. #474
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    This is just a curious question I have based on a few commens I've read elsewhere. Apologies if its already been asked as I dont have time to read through 6 massive pages right now. If this question has already been answered please point me in the direction of the post. Alright, here goes....


    Did Muhammed (pbuh) marry a preteen girl and consummate the marriage when she was still very young?? I've heard varying opinions on this but I feel you guys would be best to ask and its simply a question that I've never fully known the answer to. Did he only have 1 wife or were there others?

    Thanks in advance.


    See You Space Cowboy....

  75. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    You can't drink

    You can't smoke

    You can't have a girl friend

    You can't have sex before marriage, you can't masturbate either

    You will burn in hell if you don't pray 5 times a day

    People that want to walk away from the religion have to be punished by death

    Gay people have to be punished by death to I think

    People who have "unlawful" sexual relations have to be stoned to death

    If you steal your hands have to be chopped off

    There's no room for any kind of mistake, if you don't take the punishment for your mistake in this life you will be punished in the after life. That involves various special grave punishments designed for specific misbehaviours etc and off course there is the hell fire punishment to




    Still though, the concept of God and Worship is quiet clear and it makes sense so I believe in Allah and the prophets. But there's stuff I don't agree with, in particular all the punishments. I wish there was a bit of leniency.
    That's too hard on men. Especially when Young and older men are not allowed to have girl friends. What are they supposed to do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donal Cozzie View Post
    This is just a curious question I have based on a few commens I've read elsewhere. Apologies if its already been asked as I dont have time to read through 6 massive pages right now. If this question has already been answered please point me in the direction of the post. Alright, here goes....


    Did Muhammed (pbuh) marry a preteen girl and consummate the marriage when she was still very young?? I've heard varying opinions on this but I feel you guys would be best to ask and its simply a question that I've never fully known the answer to. Did he only have 1 wife or were there others?

    Thanks in advance.
    Muhammad had many wives...

    And yes he married Aisha when she was six years old...betrothal of pre pubescants is a parental decision...ie once a girl hits puberty she has the ability to consent thus her consent is requested...when the girl in question is pre pubescant then marriage becomes the decision of the father because of course the girl is a child and thus has no ability to consent...

    However while the marriage occurred at the age of 6 it is forbidden to consumate the marriage when the girl is a prepubescant...thus the marriage was consumated when Aisha was 9 years old and had hit puberty...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mithun_minhas View Post
    That's too hard on men. Especially when Young and older men are not allowed to have girl friends. What are they supposed to do?
    Get married young...

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Muhammad has concubines of his own that he attained through war...he married the likes of Safiyah after he murdered her whole family including her husband...

    He had a slave sent to him like Mariyah the copt as a tribute...

    And it is also legal to purchase concubines but it is haram to enslave Muslims within the Islamic state...

    Makruh is no punishment...its not liked by the Prophet by Allah but it is permissable...

    Relations between men and female are regulated...forget a girlfriend...it is haram to free mix...when a man and woman are alone the 3rd in the room is shaitan apparently...so no female friends either...you can mix with women when you are buying something or when you are receiving an education or medical treatment...or doing dawah...

    Muhammad was a complicated man...sometimes he was merciful...sometimes he wasnt...couldnt give you a definitive answer...

    Repentance in public is either genuine repentance or done for your own safe keeping...the idea of the state is to eliminate ideas which could corrupt so say the homosexual if he repents he can live...but deep down he will always be a homosexual...that is his test after all...to fight his nafs (desires)...

    I guess the best advice regarding rules you dont agree with is realise that things wont always agree with your ration but you take them cos you believe in the source...the predominant strain of Islam which came after the Abbasid period prioritised doing as to the wondering of why...naturally though it will be harder to follow rules you disagree with or find difficult...doing things you find easy is easy...its the things you find difficult like the girlfriend etc that will true tests for some...
    There are certain conditions though, in this day and age I don't think concubines are allowed under any circumstance.

    I've been told masterbation is punishable am not sure if it's something classed as Makruh.

    Yeah, you have to lower your gaze to but the first glance is allowed....I try to hold the first glance .

    Going back to my earlier question, the punishments listed are they man made laws or based on what is written in the Quran?

    In the repentance process, is there a possibility to bypass the punishment for your crime? you could make a mistake and repent on a personal level when communicating with God but you'd carry the burden of making a mistake which may needs to be punished or else you risk the punishment in the grave/hell fire.

    Yeah that pretty much describes me, before I wouldn't dare question certain things that i wasn't entirely compatible with but am not so bothered now. There are things I don't agree with but my belief is never in question given the source.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

  79. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaykh View Post
    Get married young...
    That's just not possible for some, for example am 22 just started uni and even after i finish it won't really be financially viable given that I'd need to save up etc and on top of that you can't you know what I said before or have a gf.


    Ah, so this is what it feels like

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaz619 View Post
    There are certain conditions though, in this day and age I don't think concubines are allowed under any circumstance.

    I've been told masterbation is punishable am not sure if it's something classed as Makruh.

    Yeah, you have to lower your gaze to but the first glance is allowed....I try to hold the first glance .

    Going back to my earlier question, the punishments listed are they man made laws or based on what is written in the Quran?

    In the repentance process, is there a possibility to bypass the punishment for your crime? you could make a mistake and repent on a personal level when communicating with God but you'd carry the burden of making a mistake which may needs to be punished or else you risk the punishment in the grave/hell fire.

    Yeah that pretty much describes me, before I wouldn't dare question certain things that i wasn't entirely compatible with but am not so bothered now. There are things I don't agree with but my belief is never in question given the source.
    Oh of course there are conditions...you cant just go and buy yourself a slave...first condition is there must be a Caliphate...

    If there is a Caliphate one would hope they wouldn't reintroduce slavery...ie things like tributes or importation...what is likely to stay is attaining women through war...and of course all of this had to mandated by a Caliph...so in short not for you ...

    In regards to masturbation there are the likes of Shafi who say it is haram...the likes of Hanbal say it is makrooh...upto you what you wanna do with that info...try and make sure you don't pick based on whats preferable to you...

    Lol at long first glances ...

    In terms of the punishments...its important to understand that the orthodox position on Islam is that Muslims follow the Quran as that is Allah's revelation...within the Quran and revelation Muslims are told to obey Allah AND his Messenger...so in addition to following Allah one also follows the sayings and actions of the Prophet as contained within the hadith...the hadith tends to elaborate on what is in the Quran...eg the Quran will state something is forbidden and then the hadith will provide the punishment...

    You can repent...ie if you feel genuine remorse and ask for forgiveness then hope for the best...

    And good on you for finding a comfort zone in terms of linking your personal feelings to your faith...

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