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  1. #1
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    The myth that Sangakarra is a FTB and why he is in reality an ATG!

    So we see this flawed statement parroted by a lot of people to downplay Sangakarra's achievements that despite all his runs they are not as valuable because he is a flat track bully. Ofcourse at the forefront of this are fans from a certain country for obvious reasons. But that is besides the point:

    The countries which are typically considered tough for subcontinental batsmen due to their bounce, seam or swing are: South Africa, NZ, Aus and England.

    And Sanga averages the following in these countries:

    England : 41
    NZ: 61
    SA: 36
    Aus: 60

    So it is pretty obvious that apart from SA where he could have had said to struggle (by his high standards) he has been great in other countries. And even 36 is barely a poor average . If you could say he really struggled then in my book the average needs to be in 20s or lower. 36 is farly decent. And I'll get into why it is relatively low a bit later

    Now mind you that Sangakarra for quite a few of these matches was not a pure batsmen and was doubling as a wicketkeeper which obviously affected his numbers. And that is pretty obvious because his overall average jumps significantly to 69 when he is playing in the side as only a pure batsman compares to his overall career average of 58 and a relatively very low average of 40 when he is the designated wickets keeper of the team.

    So it is interesting to know what his record as a pure batsman is in these countries (where apparently you have to perform so as not to be labelled a flat track bully):

    Eng: 53
    NZ: 81
    SA: 37
    Aus: 77


    It is undeniable that these are great numbers. Infact these averages are beastly and are far ahead overall than some of his contemporary great batsmen who some rather higher than him. Again SA is lower than the rest but 37 is hardly an average you can ding a batsman for. Infact even that poor average can be accounted for.

    Now its important to note why his average drops down to 37 (still more than respectable) in SA. I know its futile and not needed because 37 is still a good average in the overall context but lets break it down for curiosity's sake
    . Sangakarra's numbers are mostly damaged as a result of SL's 2011 tour of South Africa. This is after retirement of Murali and Vaas and SL are in deep trouble as a team. And to make matters worse a few days before the first test of the series Sangakarra injures himself by splitting the webbing of his right hand in the practise game.. But the team management plays him in the first match regardless and he follows with scores of 1 and 2 in the Test match and is in obvious discomfort. He scored a 0 in the next innings too but for that match he is considered 100% fit so I wont excuse that score. (For reference read reports of the match) If you take out that match he averages 46 in SA. But as I said 37 is still a good number considering his other numbers so regardless of that his value is not diminished.

    In SL's last tour of England many English commentators opined that the time has come that Sangakarra's greatness is duly accepted and he is talked as among the best batsman of all time similar to what the Aussie commentators did at the end of SL's last tour to Australia.

    Sangakarra has performed every where and in every conditions and has the greatest average as a batsman since Bradman. And his overall average is still among the highest. Yes he has feasted on home tracks and in Pakistan and UAE but to hold that against him and label him a FTB is not only ridiculous but downright hilarious. So basically whatever way you look at his career his numbers are undeniable and not only is he challenging for the title of greatest batsman from Asia but among the greatest of all times. People who deny this are being disingenuous and have some irrational fear and insecurity in respect to Sanga's success threatening the stats of their favorites.

    I take my hat off to arguably Asia's greatest in my opinion

    I wont force my opinion on others unlike fans of some other players like to but the numbers are undeniable and are facts!
    Last edited by Slog; 10th May 2015 at 09:24.

  2. #2
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    Don't buy this "pure bat" argument.. As discussed in other thread, ABD has said keeping hasn't affected his performance negatively.. He has been scoring runs everywhere while keeping. Here is the video..

  3. #3
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    Sanga being a FTB was discarded in his last 3-4 years where he scored runs around the world in some tough conditions .
    The century in SA when Lanka won the test probably the high point .

    He is an ATG but no not the best from Asia .

    Sachin is and if u don't agree with it fair enough .Its too pointless debating about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Don't buy this "pure bat" argument.. As discussed in other thread, ABD has said keeping hasn't affected his performance negatively.. He has been scoring runs everywhere while keeping. Here is the video..
    Regardless of whether he played as pure bat or not his overall numbers are stll beastly

    And AB;s statement is his personal experience not fact

    For Sanga its obvious that his performance upped when he became a pure bat. His avg jume to 68 ***!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Regardless of whether he played as pure bat or not his overall numbers are stll beastly

    And AB;s statement is his personal experience not fact

    For Sanga its obvious that his performance upped when he became a pure bat. His avg jume to 68 ***!
    In response to bold part, I am directly quoting cricketjoshila from another thread since he has summarized pretty well and I pretty agree with it.

    "Again that pure bat nonsense.Cleverly hiding the fact that by removing those years as wk/batsman you are removing his initial years as a player in international cricket when players are adjusting to the rigours of international game and establishing themselves.Nice Trick."

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    In response to bold part, I am directly quoting cricketjoshila from another thread since he has summarized pretty well and I pretty agree with it.

    "Again that pure bat nonsense.Cleverly hiding the fact that by removing those years as wk/batsman you are removing his initial years as a player in international cricket when players are adjusting to the rigours of international game and establishing themselves.Nice Trick."
    Well i dont really agree with it.

    And what you fail to realize is that even with wicketkeeper stats he averages 58 and far higher than anyone in the era. His greatness is undeniable with or without pure batsman stats
    Last edited by Slog; 10th May 2015 at 08:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Don't buy this "pure bat" argument.. As discussed in other thread, ABD has said keeping hasn't affected his performance negatively.. He has been scoring runs everywhere while keeping. Here is the video..
    That is just media talk btw

    AB dropped the gloves both in ODIs and tests as soon as a competent enough wik batsman comes along/

    If you really believe media talk then your are being disingenuous.

    Ofcouse AB wont say anything negative about the managements decision in a press conference.

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    You nailed it @Slog.
    Each and every point that I have been arguing in the other thread about Sanga, you have accommodated that.

    Let me mention some of the counter-arguments you will face.

    -) Sanga have played 6 matches in Australia and 5 matches in NZ so sample size isn't enough to judge his record (he averages 60+ in both countries).

    -) He has played 8 matches in SA with 36 average and then sample size becomes enough to disqualify him from ATG list.

    -) He has been piling up runs against minnows (Zim and Ban), so that has helped his average. 20% of his total runs are against these two teams.

    -) The wicket-keeping factor is used to cover the early part of his career where most of the batsman usually struggle and later on in their career they made up for it.

    -) Sanga is not an impact batsman. He is a stats monster who has created very little impact with his batting unlike Sachin, Ponting, Lara etc.

    None of them has enough weight in my opinion. And yeah its right, its more of a matter of insecurity rather than anything else.
    Last edited by Stallion__; 10th May 2015 at 08:58.

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    LMAO.
    I actually saw that video and he says that there was 'added pressure' due to the gloves in hand.

    That takes away the whole point of posting the video

    And again I would take media talk with a pinch of salt

    The fact that he drops the glove as soon as a decent wk bat comes along says it all really
    Last edited by Slog; 10th May 2015 at 09:00.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Well i dont really agree with it.

    And what you fail to realize is that even with wicketkeeper stats he averages 58 and far higher than anyone in the era. His greatness is undeniable with or without pure batsman stats
    58 average comes down to 53.83 when you remove BD and Zim from the equation..

    Also, he averages 44.5 outside of Asia when you remove Zimbabwe from his stats.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    ATG definitely, but top tier ATG he is not..

  11. #11
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    He says he gets more tired when fielding rather than when keeping. And he clearly says he would rather be a keeper if he has a choice.

  12. #12
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    You have to realize ABD is not the only example. Gilchrist is another. He was an awesome batsman while keeping his whole career.

    You can persist with "pure bat" argument as it suites your narrative, but that doesn't change the fact. Both of these batsman are one of the best ever..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    He says he gets more tired when fielding rather than when keeping. And he clearly says he would rather be a keeper if he has a choice.
    but he says it more pressure

    its media talk basically. You think he will do anything but support a team management decision in a press conference?

    and the numbers dont support his claim. his word is not gospel

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    but he says it more pressure

    its media talk basically. You think he will do anything but support a team management decision in a press conference?

    and the numbers dont support his claim. his word is not gospel
    May I ask which numbers ??

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    Sanga Record in Australia SA Eng NZL and India

    30 (mat) 2526(Runs) 45.92 (Ave) 8 (Hundreds)

    Kohli in the Same countries already

    17 (Mat) 1612 (runs) 48.84(Ave) 7 (Hundreds)

    Kohli who is just few years in International cricket is already close to eclipsing Sanga's performance overseas.In nearly half the matches and just has 1 100 less.

    Thats the problem for me with Sanga.Too few samples to rate amongst Sachin Lara Ponting etc. Unfortunately not his fault Lanka played too few overseas tests in his career

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    You have to realize ABD is not the only example. Gilchrist is another. He was an awesome batsman while keeping his whole career.

    You can persist with "pure bat" argument as it suites your narrative, but that doesn't change the fact. Both of these batsman are one of the best ever..
    Thing is my narrative still stands even if we take out the pure batsman stats as he still does well. You can feel better if you think that wicketkeeping doesnt affect batting but still he would average high in all the countries where Asian batsmen struggle

    And how can you say Gilchrist would not have averaged in the 50s if he wasnt saddled by wicket keeping?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeautifulGame View Post
    Sanga Record in Australia SA Eng NZL and India

    30 (mat) 2526(Runs) 45.92 (Ave) 8 (Hundreds)

    Kohli in the Same countries already

    17 (Mat) 1612 (runs) 48.84(Ave) 7 (Hundreds)

    Kohli who is just few years in International cricket is already close to eclipsing Sanga's performance overseas.In nearly half the matches and just has 1 100 less.

    Thats the problem for me with Sanga.Too few samples to rate amongst Sachin Lara Ponting etc. Unfortunately not his fault Lanka played too few overseas tests in his career
    Why are you including India and not Pakistan and UAE when he clearly faced better bowling in PaK and UAE? Also his last test in India was in 2009 and before his Bradmanseque purple patch

    Problem is you are fine with selective stats to put him down but not when its the other way around

    And lol at Kohli being compared to him.
    Dude averages in the 10s in England. Unless he gets it to 35+ by the time he retires (which he should) he should not even be though of in the same sentence
    Last edited by Slog; 10th May 2015 at 09:14.

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    My issue is Indian fans who try to bring him down by comparing him to guys like VVS or Dravid who clearly are leagues below him. Its a nice underhand tactic I must say and kinda smart so props for that. By comparing him to guys who are clearly below Sachin they try to kill the debate whereas he is clearly in Sachin, Lara's and Pontings league than theirs. He might not be better than all of them overall but he has done enough to be talked of in the same breath

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Thing is my narrative still stands even if we take out the pure batsman stats as he still does well. You can feel better if you think that wicketkeeping doesnt affect batting but still he would average high in all the countries where Asian batsmen struggle

    And how can you say Gilchrist would not have averaged in the 50s if he wasnt saddled by wicket keeping?
    And how can you say Sanga's stats were affected by keeping and not because of difficulty "adjusting to the rigours of international game and establishing themselves in initial years" ?? you see argument works both ways and thus it's invalid.

    No such thing as pure bat. you perform whatever role you were given without making any excuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Why are you including India and not Pakistan and UAE when he clearly faced better bowling in PaK and UAE? Also his last test in India was in 2009 and before his Bradmanseque purple patch

    Problem is you are fine with selective stats to put him down but not when its the other way around

    And lol at Kohli being compared to him.
    Dude averages in the 10s in England. Unless he gets it to 35+ by the time he retires (which he should) he should not even be though of in the same sentence
    I didn't Include India in that stats .It was a typo and can't edit .

    That stats was for countries England SA NZL and Australia


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    VVS is below Sanga. Sanga comes 4th for me after SRT, Gavaskar and Dravid from Asia.

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    Needless thread, since we already know he is ATG. It is a fact. Those who think otherwise are simply in delusion or they are trolls. whether he is greatest test batsman or not, is subjective. It depends on the quality of knocks played, the quality of opposition faced etc.

    But one think is certain, he is the biggest late bloomer. Not saying he was not good, in early stages of his career, he was damn good. But in the latter part of his career, he just piled unthinkable numbers!

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    Why is the fact that Sanga scored runs at home and UAE and Pak held against him is what I dont understand

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    VVS is below Sanga. Sanga comes 4th for me after SRT, Gavaskar and Dravid from Asia.
    He is on par Dravid if not better. Dravid wasn't that great in Australia, South Africa and Sri Lanka.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SamNJ View Post
    He is on par Dravid if not better. Dravid wasn't that great in Australia, South Africa and Sri Lanka.
    You are correct. I will put him behind SRT and Gavaskar. Him and Dravid are almost equal. Some might even argue Sanga is slightly better due to consistency and they wouldn't be wrong.

    Sanga vs VVS is not even a comparison.

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    You mean Sanga is better than every other batsman the world has seen bar Bradman because of his avg. !!!

    That is whats clearly coming out of the OP if you think he is the greatest in Asia.

    Although Sanga is not a FTB and certainly an ATG, but he is not good enough to lace for say Ponting's shoes.

    And this wk arguement is rubbish.None of the Sachinistas exclude his stats during tennis elbow.

    Apart from Ajmal, I don't think any bowler rates him that high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fringe playa View Post
    Although Sanga is not a FTB and certainly an ATG, but he is not good enough to lace for say Ponting's shoes.


    Lovely comment!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fringe playa View Post
    he is not good enough to lace for say Ponting's shoes[/B].
    Unnecessary comment..

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    the problem with sanga is.... his avg rose in the last 4-5 years. before that, he was an average batsman.

    compare to that our ATGs.... tendu, bradman, lara, ponting.... who were showing promises right from the start.

    the sneky little attitude of sanga doesn't help the cause also. he tried to cheat and exploit the system many time in his career.

    for the above reasons, he will always be a G. NOT ATG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    Don't buy this "pure bat" argument.. As discussed in other thread, ABD has said keeping hasn't affected his performance negatively.. He has been scoring runs everywhere while keeping. Here is the video..
    As if AB is going to come out and say yeah keeping is affecting his batting He's just being a team player that's all. Of course keeping especially in the longer form takes a lot out of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    In response to bold part, I am directly quoting cricketjoshila from another thread since he has summarized pretty well and I pretty agree with it.

    "Again that pure bat nonsense.Cleverly hiding the fact that by removing those years as wk/batsman you are removing his initial years as a player in international cricket when players are adjusting to the rigours of international game and establishing themselves.Nice Trick."
    Umm nope. From the other thread.

    Up to around mid 2006 Sanga was predominantly a wk/bat and from there on PJ took over the keeping duties. But even before then Sanga the pure bat was something else.

    Sanga pure bat overall excl minnows (7200 runs at 62)

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting



    Sanga pure bat outside SC excl minnows (2200 runs at 56)

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting



    Sanga pure bat in the SC excl minnows (5100 runs at 65)

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting


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    May i ask, What does FTB means?

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    There's a reason why keepers especially in Tests are considered as all-rounders. For one thing apart from Sanga only 4 other long-standing Test keepers have averaged over 40 in Test cricket history.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting


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    Quote Originally Posted by walashi View Post
    May i ask, What does FTB means?
    Flat Track Bully. So basically stats in Pak, Ind, UAE, SL, WI

    Apparently being a beast in these conditions somehow discounts your overall achievements as your stats are padded up by these stats. Eventhough other batsman also played in these same places. But when you point out he averages 40 or close to it in Eng and SA and 60+ in NZ and Aus throughout his career still people are not satisfied

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    Apologies for that unneccesary comment.

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    So another question.

    The fact that Sanga was a WK (and people are not ready to discount that in his stats) make him an overall greater cricketer (not batsman but cricketer) than the others? I mean WK is the most imp fielding position and for a good part of his career he shouldered that.

    So for ppl who are not ready to accept him being ATG batsman are they ready to accept he is an ATG cricketer and top 2 along with Imran Khan from Asia , who might just shade him due to his superior captaincy skills tied to his batting and bowling?

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    Quote Originally Posted by walashi View Post
    May i ask, What does FTB means?
    It's one of those terms used by ppl who only play cricket online. Fresh off the boat.

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    He is a "FTB" that I'd have in my lineup every day of the week

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Yes he has feasted on home tracks and in Pakistan and UAE but to hold that against him and label him a FTB is not only ridiculous but downright hilarious. So basically whatever way you look at his career his numbers are undeniable and not only is he challenging for the title of greatest batsman from Asia but among the greatest of all times.

    I wont force my opinion on others unlike fans of some other players like to but the numbers are undeniable and are facts!
    He is far from FTB in sense that term is used in PP. I use FTB for batsmen who can bully in flat track and Sanga qualifies for that cut off. But most folks use it for batsmen who can only score on flat tracks. He can score on non-flat tracks as well.

    But you lost the plot with the bold part. During Sanga's time, you have 5 effective bowling attacks - SA, Aus, NZ, Eng & Pakistan . India and WI were effective at home but poor away I am not talking about matches when so and so ATG bowler played for those teams. I am just taking the entire sample set. Anyway, most ATG bowlers were gone by the mid 00s.

    Sanga averages 50+ only against 1 out of those 5 effective bowling units during his career. Now WI/India are only effective when they play at home but extremely poor when they play outside. Sanga averages mid 30s in India and WI.

    Trend is clear. Sanga is not sitting ducks against effective bowling units , but I will happily take the likes of Dravid/Kallis over Sanga. They have scored more consistently against effective bowling sides during their career. I do rate both of them a notch below the likes of Lara , SRT etc.

    Taking aggregate career average to make a point misses the lot as well. Kallis averages 500+ against Zim. Aus has played only 3 tests against Zim in entire history. You get the point. Even after removing minnows and taking their aggregate average is meaningless when talking about the best in entire history. Sanga against non-minnows averages 53.

    I am not saying it's not great but this information alone is not useful when talking about being the best in entire history. To put it in context - MoYo in period when Sanga batted , averaged 54 against non-minnows. We always look into how this average was achieved and 5 minute of work by anyone will conclude that MoYo is not a good candidate of being the best in history. Stats without context is not very helpful.

    Since everyone doesn't get to play minnows in similar proportions, compare the perforamcne of Sanga, AB, Amla & Clarke. I am yet to hear a convincing argument from anyone that Sanga is much better than 3 batsmen who debuted and played in the same era. All 4 debuted in early 00s. I do consider Sanga as an ATG though. I do rate him just below Dravid/Kallis. That is based on seeing them bat but I presented some stats with context for objectivity.

    Calling him FTB(as meant by most here) is one extreme and calling him the best in history is another extreme. Both are wrong and not based on real performance by Sanga in his entire career. When it comes to ATG then different folks have different cut off and I am fine if some one says that Sanga is not an ATG. It means that the person has very few players in that category. I have seen some not counting even Waqar and Dravid as ATG in different forums.


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    Just because Sanga has scored heavily in Asia and against Ban/Zim, why do you guys forget that his otherwise record is pretty good as well.

    You have to take all factors into account.

    Sanga's average in 4 tougher countries for SC batsman is 46 while that of Dravid is 48.5. Difference of 2.5 runs.

    BUT
    Sanga's averages in 3rd or fourth innings in those countries are 50 and 53 while that of Dravid are 39 and 43. (Sachin's are 41 and 28)!

    Although in lesser innings but its not Sanga's fault if his team gets lesser cricket in those countries than India.

    For overall career, Sanga averages 48 in fourth innings, 40 for Dravid and 36 for Sachin.


    And the general trend for SC batsman in these countries (SA, Aus, Eng, NZ) is that they struggle in those countries in their initial tours but do perform well in the tours later in their career. Just like Sanga used to struggle in England in 2000's but has scored better in his last 2 tours to better his overall record.
    Similarly Dravid struggled in his first series in Australia but had scored a lot their in next two series thus improving his record. So Sanga is more likely to have success than failure had he played more in Aus and NZ (where he has played only 5 and 6 matches).
    Again repeating, not saying that Sanga would definitely have scored more runs had he played more but common characteristics of SC batsman suggest that.

    And when you guys say that Sanga has bashed Zim/Ban to lift his stats, it becomes even more ignorant. He has played more than 15% of his matches against those teams while scoring 20% of his runs. For Sachin, he has played 8% of his matches against these two teams and scored 11% of his runs. Similar ratio of percentage runs/match.


    Some of these facts shows that Sanga is even better than Sachin but I won't put it that way.
    Sachin is still better imo but to say that Sanga don't belongs to top tier or he is an FTB, simply undermine all his achievements.


    Besides, even if we exclude their record against Ban/Zim, Sanga averages 53 while Sachin 51. Still higher!

    Another thing. Pakistan has traditionally been the best bowling side in SC. And Sachin averages half of Sanga's average against Pakistan (40 - 80). Just that, all you guys have got to degrade Sanga's achievement is his record outside Asia (which is still good enough), you just don't mention what he has achieved inside Asia.
    Last edited by Stallion__; 10th May 2015 at 10:33.

  41. #41
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    Sachin's ardent followers cant swallow the fact that Sanga is already better than sachin in some major aspects of the game(just talking about test cricket). It is amazing that how these followers leaving no stones unturned , in downplaying sanga's achievement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enforcer View Post
    Sachin's ardent followers cant swallow the fact that Sanga is already better than sachin in some major aspects of the game(just talking about test cricket). It is amazing that how these followers leaving no stones unturned , in downplaying sanga's achievement.
    I agree.

    No one is saying that Sanga being ahead of Sachin is a fact. The claim is that its an argument/discussion worth having and is certainly not outside the realms of possibilities for him to be thought of having been more successful in test cricket than Sachin.

    But for some reason there is defensiveness or insecurity and what annoys me is that they try to bring Sanga down by comparing him to VVS etc so that a legitimate debate is killed there

    Its very clever and underhanded which ironically the same people accuse Sanga of being throughout their career. By saying that first you need to compare him to Dravid, VVS etc as equals before getting to Sachin basically you are trying to force a view point that Sanga is not even in the same league or discussion because obviously the same people hold Sachin way above the guys they want to compare Sanga with

    Now if you wanna be disingenuous and totally out of touch with how cricket works and seriously believe that wicketkeeping has no effect on someone's batting even then Sanga has claims to be a greater cricketer than Sachin for being an allrounder of such high class along with decent record as captain
    Last edited by Slog; 10th May 2015 at 10:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stallion__ View Post

    Besides, even if we exclude their record against Ban/Zim, Sanga averages 53 while Sachin 51. Still higher!
    And if you remove Sachin's bashing of our hapless attacks full of part timers in the 90s that ave drops below 50 (49.47 exactly). Fun fact

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    Quote Originally Posted by SL_Fan View Post
    And if you remove Sachin's bashing of our hapless attacks full of part timers in the 90s that ave drops below 50 (49.47 exactly). Fun fact
    I find it funny how these ppl come up with all these statistical nitpickings to bring down Sanga but nothing of this sort is done for Sachin

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    Quote Originally Posted by SL_Fan View Post
    And if you remove Sachin's bashing of our hapless attacks full of part timers in the 90s that ave drops below 50 (49.47 exactly). Fun fact
    Sachin averages 60 against SL overall, it drops down to 48 in matches where Murali played!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stallion__ View Post
    Sachin averages 60 against SL overall, it drops down to 48 in matches where Murali played!
    Minnow or lesser bowlers bashing is no offence as long as you are scoring runs against better bowlers as well. Sanga has done that and so has Sachin. People just exaggerate this for Sanga,

  47. #47
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    Yeah Sachin feasted on our part-timers in the 90s

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s=Submit+query

    If you are going to exclude Bangla and Zim then you ought to exclude SL of the 80-late 90s as well. SL had much worse attacks than Zim throughout most of the 90s. Worst of all Test nations.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    But you lost the plot with the bold part. During Sanga's time, you have 5 effective bowling attacks - SA, Aus, NZ, Eng & Pakistan . India and WI were effective at home but poor away I am not talking about matches when so and so ATG bowler played for those teams. I am just taking the entire sample set. Anyway, most ATG bowlers were gone by the mid 00s.

    Sanga averages 50+ only against 1 out of those 5 effective bowling units during his career. Now WI/India are only effective when they play at home but extremely poor when they play outside. Sanga averages mid 30s in India and WI.

    Ok. For effective attacks according to you, Sanga averages 50+ against one of these, 49.3 against NZ, 48 against SA and 40+ against other two teams as well.

    For Sachin, he averages 50+ against two of these while 40+ against 3.

    Dravid average 50+ against 3 of these, while less than 40's against less than two.

    Overall it makes 53, 49 and 47 for Sanga, Sachin and Dravid.

    And yes, he averages in mid 30's in Ind and WI, but one can't have precisely balanced and flawless record in every aspect.
    For instance, Sachin averages 36 in 4th innings while Sanga 47 (I need not say that batting conditions are usually toughest in 4th innings of a test match). Besides, Sanga has played only 2 series each, in these countries, the last one being play in 2009. And Sanga has hit his productive patch after that.

    Plus for Indian attack, not only at home, its effective in all SC conditions including SL. As a matter of fact, India beat Pakistan in Pakistan in 2004. And Sanga averages 74 against Indian attack in SL, that makes it combined average of 57 against India, all in SC conditions which suits Indian bowling attack.


    As I mention earlier, Sanga bullying and bashing of minnows shouldn't mask the fact that he has been good against the better attacks as well.

  49. #49
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    the best test batsmans of last 2 decades are
    jacques kallis
    kumar sangakkara
    sachin Tendulkar
    brain lara
    ricky ponting
    dravid

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SL_Fan View Post
    And if you remove Sachin's bashing of our hapless attacks full of part timers in the 90s that ave drops below 50 (49.47 exactly). Fun fact

    If you exclude Bangla, Zim , Pakistan for Sanga (pak was minnow bowling when Sanga faced them) his average drops to 47.58 from 58.66

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround

  51. #51
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    It's a fact that Sanga has feasted on pathetic bowling attacks of India, Zim, Bangla and Pak (when they were at their all time low).. His stats are the proof..

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    Sanggakkara is a borderline ATG.

    He will be considered ATG by most Sri Lankans and a lot of Pakistanis though.

    Younis Khan is another story though.

    He is nothing beyond a Pakistani great.


    And I get so high.. And I just can't feel it....

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    Let us once and for all dispel the notion that absolutely anybody can score big runs in Sri Lanka. Ponting, VVS, Dravid, and ; alongside Border, Pietersen, Clarke, Graeme Smith, Chanderpaul, and AB de Villiers all have poor records in Sri Lanka. Poor as in, for a reputed batsman's paradise where everybody worth his salt as an international cricketer should average 99.94 and Jayawardene's and Sangakkara's performances are ordinary. Please. We must stop with this inferiority complex - yes, quite often, Asian wickets can be batsman friendly, but if they were like that all of the time then how come so many ATGs struggle in Sri Lanka? Sure they average mid-40s, but Sangakkara averages 67 at home, 23 points better than de Villiers, and 34 points better than Dravid, for instance.
    Last edited by Pantani; 10th May 2015 at 12:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrish View Post
    If you exclude Bangla, Zim , Pakistan for Sanga (pak was minnow bowling when Sanga faced them) his average drops to 47.58 from 58.66

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...;type=allround
    Yeah nice try but nope. Sanga has always had a thing for Pak. Started off with a 230 and a MOM against an attack with Waqar and Akhtar in the 2002 Asian Test championship final and it has been <3 at first sight ever since

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63948.html

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...g;view=innings

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stallion__ View Post
    Minnow or lesser bowlers bashing is no offence as long as you are scoring runs against better bowlers as well. Sanga has done that and so has Sachin. People just exaggerate this for Sanga,
    No one should count it as offence but you are you going to argue about being the best then you got to score heavily against the bowling sides who were most difficult to score against. Since, it looks like many of you simply going all over with SRT vs Sanga here , Let me put it these two players.

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    You got to score heavily against top 3-4 bowling sides of your time to have any claim for the best in history. You also don't have to do any nitpicking or cherrypicking. This is entire career and entire bowling unit output when both played. You guys were talking about SL and talking about nitpicking. Over all, SL had a good bowling unit in Asian conditions during SRT's entire career.

    Now, when I am presenting this here, It's not to put down Sanga but how the hell you can compare unless you point out negative and positive of two players? Sanga played against 3 of the top 4 bowling sides in his career and didn't put 50+ average against any of them. SRT did averaged 55+ against 3 bowling sides. It was also not about lack of opportunities for Sanga. He has played 50 tests against SA, Aus and Eng.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stallion__ View Post
    Another thing. Pakistan has traditionally been the best bowling side in SC. And Sachin averages half of Sanga's average against Pakistan (40 - 80).
    Talking about traditional strength of Pakistan has very little meaning in context Sanga. Sanga is going to play Asian sides in Asia. We can see how easy or difficult each Asian side has been as a bowling unit when they bowled in Asia.

    Asian bowling units in Asia against all oppositions during Sanga's career:

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    Clearly, Pakistan hasn't been that great bowling unit in Asian conditions despite rich tradition. SL takes the cake here and does that with a big margin when it comes to bowling in Asian conditions. Asian conditions is only thing matter when it comes to SRT, Sanga or any Asian batsmen facing Asian bowling sides in the test format. They will only play them in Asia.

    --------------

    Now it's a different issue if we don't want to compare and simply praise Sanga or any player. When it comes to actual comparison using stats then some actual stats should be presented rather than opinion like SL being an easy bowling side in Asian conditions or Pakistani being a strong one in Asian conditions when SRT or Sanga played.

    Sanga has been thrashing Pakistan and as a Pakistani fans, you are going to remember those cases a lot more. All fans do that. But that's just your opinion shaped by what Sanga has been doing against you guys. Sanga is still rated as ATG by most fans but mainly Pakistani fans will make a case for him being as good as Sachin or Lara due to reasons I gave earlier. It's true for some Pakistani fans who claim to watch cricket for the last 40 years and it's also true for some Pakistani fans who have watched cricket only in the last 15 years. Later case is more understandable though because SRT, Lara were done with their best phase. Earlier case is more weird.

    Now you can all do cherry picking with this period or that period. But entire career and bowling unit in their entire career is an objective measure without getting into any cherry picking. Before some one jumps at me, Sanga is an ATG ;)


    "If this happens I will swim across the Charles River! In winter!" -- OZGOD on NZ batting 6 sessions

  56. #56
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    I think Sangakkara's overseas stats are simlar to Brian Lara's.

    Lara was abysmal overseas all throughout the 90's barring a few of knocks till 'that' tour to SL in 2001, and improved his away record as he neared the end of his career. Still he ended up with mediocre records in 3 of the 7 countries he played in. Which is similar to Sanga's case here.

    However Lara has the upper hand of playing more ATG knocks that any other batsman in history and overall faced a more competent bunch of bowlers in his career. So while i would rate Lara as ATG on the strength of his knocks, i would rate Sanga slightly below but still ATG, based on the strength of his performances as a pure batsman.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stallion__ View Post
    And yes, he averages in mid 30's in Ind and WI, but one can't have precisely balanced and flawless record in every aspect.
    ... Besides, Sanga has played only 2 series each, in these countries, the last one being play in 2009. And Sanga has hit his productive patch after that.
    It's another myth floating in PP that Sanga's best period in the test came after 2009. Let's run with your assumption. So best period for Sanga starts with 2010 , right?

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    Now all of us know which bowing sides have been the top 4 bowling sides in the last 5 years. Do you see any trend here? It's clear that he has not scored heavily against the best 4 bowling sides in this period but many PPers wrongly keep claiming that Sanga has been at his best in the last 5 years. That's true for ODI but not for test.

    As I said earlier, this claim is also based on Sanga thrashing Pakistani bowling heavily in the last 5 years. We all tend to remember performance against our teams a lot more than any other performance. But that's just one opposition and if we want to seriously argue our case then we have to look at the data rationally or watch most games involving other teams.

    If still, you claim that this was his best output and you think it was something great to be compared with the best in history, then I give up. You can find many batsmen doing better in 5 years chosen period. Better again means, scoring heavily against good bowling sides and not aggregate average or runs which seems to be main argument for many poster here. I can actually find Sanga doing better in different 5 years of chosen period.


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    First off , take this pure bat thing somewhere else.

    Secondly , why are Pakistanis so hell bent on proving that he is an ATG ? It is obvious why Sri Lankans would do it , but why Pakistanis ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    First off , take this pure bat thing somewhere else.

    Secondly , why are Pakistanis so hell bent on proving that he is an ATG ? It is obvious why Sri Lankans would do it , but why Pakistanis ?
    I mean i have never seen an Aus fan or an England fan or an NZ fan creating threads proving why he is an ATG , or coming to his defence quicker than a Bugatti Veyron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    My issue is Indian fans who try to bring him down by comparing him to guys like VVS or Dravid who clearly are leagues below him. Its a nice underhand tactic I must say and kinda smart so props for that. By comparing him to guys who are clearly below Sachin they try to kill the debate whereas he is clearly in Sachin, Lara's and Pontings league than theirs. He might not be better than all of them overall but he has done enough to be talked of in the same breath
    And you expect people to take you seriously ?

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    Another thing about Sanga , even in his bradmanesque years , he is not even in the top 5 batsmen away from home.

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    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    First off , take this pure bat thing somewhere else.

    Secondly , why are Pakistanis so hell bent on proving that he is an ATG ? It is obvious why Sri Lankans would do it , but why Pakistanis ?
    Because he is an ATG but for some reason, Indians are not ready to accept that.

    Honestly, why are Indians so hell bent on downplaying and undermining Sanga?

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    He's an all time great, anyone who doesn't think so is delusional and/or biased.

    He certainly deserves to be spoken alongside batsmen such as Ponting, Lara, and Sachin in test cricket.

    Plus, who doesn't enjoy watching Sangakkara bat?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffet View Post
    No one should count it as offence but you are you going to argue about being the best then you got to score heavily against the bowling sides who were most difficult to score against. Since, it looks like many of you simply going all over with SRT vs Sanga here , Let me put it these two players.

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    You got to score heavily against top 3-4 bowling sides of your time to have any claim for the best in history. You also don't have to do any nitpicking or cherrypicking. This is entire career and entire bowling unit output when both played. You guys were talking about SL and talking about nitpicking. Over all, SL had a good bowling unit in Asian conditions during SRT's entire career.

    Now, when I am presenting this here, It's not to put down Sanga but how the hell you can compare unless you point out negative and positive of two players? Sanga played against 3 of the top 4 bowling sides in his career and didn't put 50+ average against any of them. SRT did averaged 55+ against 3 bowling sides. It was also not about lack of opportunities for Sanga. He has played 50 tests against SA, Aus and Eng.



    Talking about traditional strength of Pakistan has very little meaning in context Sanga. Sanga is going to play Asian sides in Asia. We can see how easy or difficult each Asian side has been as a bowling unit when they bowled in Asia.

    Asian bowling units in Asia against all oppositions during Sanga's career:

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    Clearly, Pakistan hasn't been that great bowling unit in Asian conditions despite rich tradition. SL takes the cake here and does that with a big margin when it comes to bowling in Asian conditions. Asian conditions is only thing matter when it comes to SRT, Sanga or any Asian batsmen facing Asian bowling sides in the test format. They will only play them in Asia.

    --------------

    Now it's a different issue if we don't want to compare and simply praise Sanga or any player. When it comes to actual comparison using stats then some actual stats should be presented rather than opinion like SL being an easy bowling side in Asian conditions or Pakistani being a strong one in Asian conditions when SRT or Sanga played.

    Sanga has been thrashing Pakistan and as a Pakistani fans, you are going to remember those cases a lot more. All fans do that. But that's just your opinion shaped by what Sanga has been doing against you guys. Sanga is still rated as ATG by most fans but mainly Pakistani fans will make a case for him being as good as Sachin or Lara due to reasons I gave earlier. It's true for some Pakistani fans who claim to watch cricket for the last 40 years and it's also true for some Pakistani fans who have watched cricket only in the last 15 years. Later case is more understandable though because SRT, Lara were done with their best phase. Earlier case is more weird.

    Now you can all do cherry picking with this period or that period. But entire career and bowling unit in their entire career is an objective measure without getting into any cherry picking. Before some one jumps at me, Sanga is an ATG ;)
    Nope your stats are heavily distorted. Fact is that during the 90s for the most part we had part-timers as the 3rd and 4th bowling options. We were easily the worst attack during 1990-98.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team



    Itís only around 98 that we started to build a decent Test attack and took off around 99/2000. As for Sachin he piled on the runs against us during the 90s (averaged over 80) and since 2000 only averages 46 against us.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    So for Sachin the top 4 sides he has faced are Aus, SA, Pak and SL (excl 80s/90s)

    He averages 48.34 {(8423-1124)/151} against them


    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...g;view=innings

    For Sanga the top 4 sides he has faced are Aus, SA, Eng and Pak

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    And he averages 53.88 against them (6800 runs) overall and over 63 as a pure bat (5000 runs).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    I mean i have never seen an Aus fan or an England fan or an NZ fan creating threads proving why he is an ATG , or coming to his defence quicker than a Bugatti Veyron.
    because he is an ATG regardless of what Indian fans like you say.

    It is very obvious why they dont want to admit that
    Last edited by Slog; 10th May 2015 at 13:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SL_Fan View Post
    Nope your stats are heavily distorted. Fact is that during the 90s for the most part we had part-timers as the 3rd and 4th bowling options. We were easily the worst attack during 1990-98.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team



    It’s only around 98 that we started to build a decent Test attack and took off around 99/2000. As for Sachin he piled on the runs against us during the 90s (averaged over 80) and since 2000 only averages 46 against us.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    So for Sachin the top 4 sides he has faced are Aus, SA, Pak and SL (excl 80s/90s)

    He averages 48.34 {(8423-1124)/151} against them


    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...g;view=innings

    For Sanga the top 4 sides he has faced are Aus, SA, Eng and Pak

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    And he averages 53.88 against them (6800 runs) overall and over 63 as a pure bat (5000 runs).
    Just one question , how many have you said ''pure bat'' on this forum ? 10 million times maybe ?

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by SL_Fan View Post
    Nope your stats are heavily distorted. Fact is that during the 90s for the most part we had part-timers as the 3rd and 4th bowling options. We were easily the worst attack during 1990-98.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...ults;type=team



    It’s only around 98 that we started to build a decent Test attack and took off around 99/2000. As for Sachin he piled on the runs against us during the 90s (averaged over 80) and since 2000 only averages 46 against us.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    So for Sachin the top 4 sides he has faced are Aus, SA, Pak and SL (excl 80s/90s)

    He averages 48.34 {(8423-1124)/151} against them


    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...g;view=innings

    For Sanga the top 4 sides he has faced are Aus, SA, Eng and Pak

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    And he averages 53.88 against them (6800 runs) overall and over 63 as a pure bat (5000 runs).
    And secondly , do you even know about the gulf in the quality of bowling in 90s and 2000s ?

  68. #68
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    He is.

    I've seen people from all the nationalities, even cricketers like Clarke praising him as an ATG.

    The only exception are our neighbors. I've no idea why they feel so insecure when it comes to either Sangakkara or Amla.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Its a forum. Maybe you dont know how they work? They are a place for discussion on cricket

    also Dravid is not in the top tier Funny you tried to sneak it in there

    Sanga is superior to him no doubt. Its not even a serious case
    But i have never seen an Aus fan or an NZ fan rushing to Sanga's defence . Only Pakistanis . Can you explain that ?

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    But i have never seen an Aus fan or an NZ fan rushing to Sanga's defence . Only Pakistanis . Can you explain that ?
    I dont keep score. Maybe thats how you spend your free time

    This is a Pakistani forum so ofcourse the majority of posts will be by Pakistanis

    Not much science to it!

    Anyways this is off topic. Debate the numbers and facts presented rather than derailing a thread with pointless talk

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
    He is.

    I've seen people from all the nationalities, even cricketers like Clarke praising him as an ATG.

    The only exception are our neighbors. I've no idea why they feel so insecure when it comes to either Sangakkara or Amla.
    Maybe you didn't notice , most Indians have no problem in accepting him as an ATG. The problem is , he is not , and will never be in the same league as Srt/Lara/Ponting/Dravid. No matter how hard Sri lankans and Pakistanis and Bangladeshis try to prove that he is.

  72. #72
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    I don't think anyone, even Indians deny he is an ATG. the only debate happens when people try to put him in the top 3 based on his average. And strangely this is done more by Pak fans than Sri Lankan ones.


    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. --Mark Twain

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    Maybe you didn't notice , most Indians have no problem in accepting him as an ATG. The problem is , he is not , and will never be in the same league as Srt/Lara/Ponting/Dravid. No matter how hard Sri lankans and Pakistanis and Bangladeshis try to prove that he is.
    Keep trying to put in Dravid but that wont get him in that league

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indiafan View Post
    I don't think anyone, even Indians deny he is an ATG. the only debate happens when people try to put him in the top 3 based on his average. And strangely this is done more by Pak fans than Sri Lankan ones.
    Thats a straight up lie and that is the issue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    Just one question , how many have you said ''pure bat'' on this forum ? 10 million times maybe ?
    Can you count all of it and let me know. Cheers! Just one question tho. Do you know the difference between a pure bat and a wk bat. You know, the saying with apples and oranges and all that.

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    Please stop derailing the thread by bringing in nationalities. That is irrelevant on the forum when discussing a topic such as this

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    I dont keep score. Maybe thats how you spend your free time

    This is a Pakistani forum so ofcourse the majority of posts will be by Pakistanis

    Not much science to it!

    Anyways this is off topic. Debate the numbers and facts presented rather than derailing a thread with pointless talk
    Actually i have posted some stats , maybe you didn't see them.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    Kumar ''greatest since Bradman'' Sanga is not even in the top 5 batsmen away from home . So much for the best batsman since Bradman.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    And secondly , do you even know about the gulf in the quality of bowling in 90s and 2000s ?
    Really? I had no idea. Thank you for pointing that out. Do you want to know a lil secret. Sachin averages 52 since 2000. Oh noes!

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    Actually i have posted some stats , maybe you didn't see them.

    http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=batting

    Kumar ''greatest since Bradman'' Sanga is not even in the top 5 batsmen away from home . So much for the best batsman since Bradman.
    lmao

    what was the basis of your arbitrary pick off points?

    That list really doesnt prove anything tbh. Are you saing Amla is the greatest batsman of all time since Bradman then?

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acricketfan View Post
    Funny how you ignored this part .
    average and record in other countries.

    Read the opening post first

    It is beyond doubt to any cricket watcher that Sanga is above Dravid. Maybe take off your tinted glasses. Cant take Dravid seriously in a talk of ATG top tier batsmen when he averaged below 30 in SA.


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