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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRSN View Post
    I know. Chowdharies were really much much better than these goons. I have seen more work in their five years tenure than PML N's government in last 10 years.

    Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
    yea thats what i am saying these mian bros used to criticize chaudharies and call them corrupt before coming in to govt but did nothing after winning just like they use to campaign by calling zardari corrupt to get votes and later they were found sitting together. muk muka

    I have to agree PML Q govt was under a dictator but lot of development was done and i have seen lot of good things happening in their times. Rescure 1122 and Punjab Highway Patrol were one of the best thing that happened during their era and now Punjab govt is asking awaam for funds to run 1122 they have funds for metros but no money for things that awaam really needs. My district saw the best development in PML Q govt and the work district naazim did was far more than any MPA/MNA did in 20 years.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    Not sure about whole Punjab getting out of their hands but i can tell you the ground realities of my District Attock that is really different from rest of Punjab it's the last district of Punjab and comes under Potohar on KP border.

    I don't see PMLN winning even 1 NA seat in next elections from my District. PPP is done and dusted here years ago no chance for them and PMLN is also on same path like PPP here. Only PTI and Independents are getting strong by every day here (there are 3 NA and 6 PP seats in my district Attock). 1 NA seat was won by independent and 2 by PMLN but credit of one PMLN NA seat goes to marhoom Shuja Khanzada MPA personal reputation in area which helped PMLN MNA win by a margin of 3000.

    Let me summarize those 3 NA seats in few words

    NA-57, PMLN 59,000, PTI 56,000 (margin of only 3000 and recounting was going to happen but PMLN candidate got stay order)

    NA-58, Independent (Son of ex District Nazim Attock Maj Tahir who did a lot for this District in Mush era and that's far far more than any MNA and MPA did in 20 years)

    NA-59, PMLN 85,000, PTI 74,000 (PMLN candidate that won is one of the most corrupt and sherabi kababi he remains drunk most of the time if you go to meet him you will notice and people are tired of him and are going to throw him out he did almost no work in the constituency and don't remain in touch with the locals)

    There is a huge vote bank of PTI in this District and their candidates are good too so if they don't do any blunder they can easily win at least 2 NA seats from here while imo 1 seat may go to Independent candidate.

    As someone already mentioned in another thread that in Punjab PTI need to focus more on other parts of Punjab like Seraiki and Potohar because in central Punjab things are not going to change anytime soon.
    Great summery on our district attock and Chach mate (which part of Chach are you from by the way ?

    I'm quite sure Malik Amin aslam won from NA 57 (or was it 59) in 2013 but the nooras did some serious rigging to make sure sheikh aftab, who is very close to Nawaz sharif, win.

    As you say, PTI can really take advantage of noons incompetence in our area and can easily get 2 if not all 3 of the NA seats here come 2018


    Alone we are Pathan, Punjabi, Sindhi and Balochi...together we are Pakistan

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by corneredtiger85292 View Post
    Great summery on our district attock and Chach mate (which part of Chach are you from by the way ?

    I'm quite sure Malik Amin aslam won from NA 57 (or was it 59) in 2013 but the nooras did some serious rigging to make sure sheikh aftab, who is very close to Nawaz sharif, win.

    As you say, PTI can really take advantage of noons incompetence in our area and can easily get 2 if not all 3 of the NA seats here come 2018
    I am from main Attock city bro (NA-57 is Attock city and Chach area, Hazro Tehsil), NA-58 is Fateh Jang & Hassan Abdal Tehsil, NA-59 is Jand & Pindi Gheb Tehsil.

    Amin Aslam was the one who won from NA57 in 2002 elections and was a minister too (PML Q). Than in 2008 elections he lost by only 500 votes (and he was independent candidate). In 2013 elections Amin Aslam (PTI) lost by around 3000 votes but the reality is that there was some rigging in remote areas and the other advantage sheikh aftab had was chach vote that gone to his favor thanks to shuja khanzada who was candidate of MPA from PMLN so neeche shaer per lagayi stump to logon ne oper be shaer per laga di otherwise Sheikh Aftab was losing from his own home.

    Sheikh Aftab (PMLN MNA from NA-57) and Malik Aitebar (PMLN MNA from NA-58) both are not going to win and i have my doubts if PMLN is even going to give them tickets in next elections? Although Sheikh Aftab is a very old PMLN leader and loyal of Nawaz and won from here multiple times but his reputation is gone down hill and giving ticket to him in next election will mean losing this seat by a huge margin.

    Maj Tahir Group (ex district naazim) is really powerful in Attock and he got his own vote bank (thank to the work he did in the district). He can easily get a seat in next elections too just like his son did in 2013 elections and problem for PTI and PMLN both is that they will face issues if they give him ticket. PMLN can't because Tahir Sadiq is nephew of Chaudheries (PMLQ) and PTI can't because giving him ticket means they will have to sacrifice one of their leader Amin Aslam from NA-57 or Malik Sohail from NA-58

    I do think if PTI don't do any blunder here they are looking good to get 2 MNAs from here (they already have MPA Ijaz Bukhari from city).


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  4. #84
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    I hope they can but really doubt it's happening anytime soon. With Metro train being completed, people think Lahore is already beating Paris in infrastructure development and only thing between Pakistan becoming Asian tiger is Imran Khan.

  5. #85
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    My whole family backs PML-N, 80-90% people I know back PML-N. So it's going nowhere, Also PTI has got old corrupt people from other parties as it's candidates.

    PTI is a league of TTFs.

  6. #86
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    90% of people I know back PTI, the only people who I know who back PMLN are older people in their 50s and 60s.

    Anyone young in our country needs to have their brains checked if they back Noon League.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    90% of people I know back PTI, the only people who I know who back PMLN are older people in their 50s and 60s.

    Anyone young in our country needs to have their brains checked if they back Noon League.
    PML-N is going to win in Punjab, Yet again.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamza_ View Post
    PML-N is going to win in Punjab, Yet again.
    Unfortunately yes.

    Feudal system playing a bit part especially Southern Punjab.

  9. #89
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    I always maintain vote for candidate not party, if PML-N is allocating more budget for Punjab than rest of states then why Punjabi's should not vote for them. Every party has good and bad candidates, one who works for people should be elected.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tera Gawaandi View Post
    I always maintain vote for candidate not party, if PML-N is allocating more budget for Punjab than rest of states then why Punjabi's should not vote for them. Every party has good and bad candidates, one who works for people should be elected.
    Exactly my point. PTI candidates are garbage, with pathetic background and ex from other parties. How can you vote for such people..

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamza_ View Post
    Exactly my point. PTI candidates are garbage, with pathetic background and ex from other parties. How can you vote for such people..
    As compared to the lottays in the PMLN who were all Musharaf's lackeys or a lot of them anyway? Daniyal Aziz being the biggest example.

    I mean if you're going to talk about pathetic candidates noone beats PMLN in that. Corrupt, murderers, thieves, sell-outs you name it PMLN will win hands down. The sitting PM of PMLN is undergoing massive corruption scandal and you talk about pathetic backgrounds.

    I'd even take PPP over PMLN, that's how terrible they are.
    @Syed1, @Slog where do I start with this post.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 25th June 2017 at 18:12.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    As compared to the lottays in the PMLN who were all Musharaf's lackeys or a lot of them anyway? Daniyal Aziz being the biggest example.

    I mean if you're going to talk about pathetic candidates noone beats PMLN in that. Corrupt, murderers, thieves, sell-outs you name it PMLN will win hands down. The sitting PM of PMLN is undergoing massive corruption scandal and you talk about pathetic backgrounds.

    I'd even take PPP over PMLN, that's how terrible they are.
    @Syed1, @Slog where do I start with this post.
    The PTI candidates here are even worse than PML-N. Why do you target PML-N when your own league is no different.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 25th June 2017 at 18:13.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    As compared to the lottays in the PMLN who were all Musharaf's lackeys or a lot of them anyway? Daniyal Aziz being the biggest example.

    I mean if you're going to talk about pathetic candidates noone beats PMLN in that. Corrupt, murderers, thieves, sell-outs you name it PMLN will win hands down. The sitting PM of PMLN is undergoing massive corruption scandal and you talk about pathetic backgrounds.

    I'd even take PPP over PMLN, that's how terrible they are.
    @Syed1, @Slog where do I start with this post.
    Look at this logic. So PTI has garbage candidates because all of them are former members of PML-N or PPP, but those two parties with the same kind of candidates are fine. Bhai rehn do aisay log se kya argue karna.

    Any young person who backs Noon league does not have two working brain cells, unfortunately for us there are millions of those people in our nation.

    Then they turn around and cry about loadshedding, corruption, unemployment etc etc.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 25th June 2017 at 18:13.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamza_ View Post
    The PTI candidates here are even worse than PML-N. Why do you target PML-N when your own league is no different.
    Are you seriously comparing PMLN to PTI?

    One party which has been in power for 3 decades in Punjab and has nothing to show off for it. One party which is now currently undergoing a case in which its suspected of laundering billions from the nation. One party which after decades of power has nothing to show for in the health, education, energy, policing sectors. One party where democracy is a sham and party positions are handed down like kings hand down their thrones and ministries.

    Let's guess which party this is.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Look at this logic. So PTI has garbage candidates because all of them are former members of PML-N or PPP, but those two parties with the same kind of candidates are fine. Bhai rehn do aisay log se kya argue karna.

    Any young person who backs Noon league does not have two working brain cells, unfortunately for us there are millions of those people in our nation.

    Then they turn around and cry about loadshedding, corruption, unemployment etc etc.
    I mean the cheek is unbelievable. Crying about PTI candidates while the top leader of PMLN (its founder no less and the nation's PM) is undergoing a corruption case and a massive corruption scandal is just absolutely unbelievable.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamza_ View Post
    Exactly my point. PTI candidates are garbage, with pathetic background and ex from other parties. How can you vote for such people..
    Oh boy the irony in your post lol nearly 100 pmln MNAs came from ppp and pmlq in 2013 and half of their cabinet was part of musharraf. At least do some research before pointing fingers at PTI

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    Oh boy the irony in your post lol nearly 100 pmln MNAs came from ppp and pmlq in 2013 and half of their cabinet was part of musharraf. At least do some research before pointing fingers at PTI
    So what? Your PTI is not doodh ki dhuli. Infact it's candidates are worse

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    Are you seriously comparing PMLN to PTI?

    One party which has been in power for 3 decades in Punjab and has nothing to show off for it. One party which is now currently undergoing a case in which its suspected of laundering billions from the nation. One party which after decades of power has nothing to show for in the health, education, energy, policing sectors. One party where democracy is a sham and party positions are handed down like kings hand down their thrones and ministries.

    Let's guess which party this is.
    What are PTI's credentials?

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamza_ View Post
    So what? Your PTI is not doodh ki dhuli. Infact it's candidates are worse
    Lol so your defense come down to this now that who got better lotas after getting your posts about PTI lotas exposed haha

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    Lol so your defense come down to this now that who got better lotas after getting your posts about PTI lotas exposed haha
    My defence? It's clear, PML-N candidates are much better in my area and region compared to PTI's.

  21. #101
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    All these electables will jump PMLN ship in case there is a decision against shareef family. For them their seat matters not party or loyalty.

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamza_ View Post
    My defence? It's clear, PML-N candidates are much better in my area and region compared to PTI's.
    So talk about your area tgan not whole Punjab whete we got thugs and killers like rana sanuallah, zaeem qadri, hanif abbasi etc

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    So talk about your area tgan not whole Punjab whete we got thugs and killers like rana sanuallah, zaeem qadri, hanif abbasi etc
    Do you believe PTI's alternative candidates are any better? If so please mention their history, background, credentials and how they are better than the people you've mentioned.

  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamza_ View Post
    What are PTI's credentials?
    What do you mean ''credentials''? What are PMLN's credentials? Or has the Panama case escaped your memory?

    You can't bash PTI for bad candidates but then support the biggest looter party we have ever seen. Its like someone criticising a match fixer but then going on to defend a bank robber.

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamza_ View Post
    Do you believe PTI's alternative candidates are any better? If so please mention their history, background, credentials and how they are better than the people you've mentioned.
    Name those candidates, instead of being vague, and if they're rubbish we'll criticise them too.

  26. #106
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    As I said before, expect Nawaz Sharif to do something at the very LAST minute to win back his voters. At the very last minute, he might announce an educational or healthcare project which will be scraped after the elections.
    Last edited by Muhammad10; 25th June 2017 at 18:15.

  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    I hope they can but really doubt it's happening anytime soon. With Metro train being completed, people think Lahore is already beating Paris in infrastructure development and only thing between Pakistan becoming Asian tiger is Imran Khan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamza_ View Post
    My whole family backs PML-N, 80-90% people I know back PML-N. So it's going nowhere, Also PTI has got old corrupt people from other parties as it's candidates.

    PTI is a league of TTFs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    90% of people I know back PTI, the only people who I know who back PMLN are older people in their 50s and 60s.

    Anyone young in our country needs to have their brains checked if they back Noon League.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tera Gawaandi View Post
    I always maintain vote for candidate not party, if PML-N is allocating more budget for Punjab than rest of states then why Punjabi's should not vote for them. Every party has good and bad candidates, one who works for people should be elected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Look at this logic. So PTI has garbage candidates because all of them are former members of PML-N or PPP, but those two parties with the same kind of candidates are fine. Bhai rehn do aisay log se kya argue karna.

    Any young person who backs Noon league does not have two working brain cells, unfortunately for us there are millions of those people in our nation.

    Then they turn around and cry about loadshedding, corruption, unemployment etc etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mian View Post
    Oh boy the irony in your post lol nearly 100 pmln MNAs came from ppp and pmlq in 2013 and half of their cabinet was part of musharraf. At least do some research before pointing fingers at PTI
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam18696 View Post
    As I said before, expect Nawaz Sharif to do something at the very LAST minute to win back his voters. At the very last minute, he might announce an educational or healthcare project which will be scraped after the elections.

    Majority Punjab is Rural Punjab.


    Let us divide Punjab into 3 factions support wise


    Urban Punjab
    1.PTI (marginally)
    2. PML N (v close to PTI)
    3. PPP (way behind)


    South Punjab
    1. PPP (way ahead)
    2. PTI (way behind)
    3. PML N (near PTI)


    Rural Punjab
    1. PML N (absolute majority & no match)
    2. PTI (way way behind)
    3. PPP (way way way way behind)


    4th main competitor are or would be PML Q or JI


    So in absolutely Fair Elections PML N will have max Seats but not 2/3rd majority.


    PTI & PPP will have to perform v well and make Coalition in order to gain Majority. They may even need PML Q or JI or both with them in order to make coalition gov. In other case if PML Q & JI go in lap of PML N than PTI & PPP will again be in Opposition. If PPP goes with PML N than too PTI will be in Opposition.


    PTI needs to Win majoriry in Khi hyderabad and Balochistam to be able to make Federal government which seems unlikely. With PTI taking so many PPP politicians they may win few more urban seats but it will result in PPP drifting towards PML N plus charter of democracy.


    So PTI has to make Electoral alliance with JI & PML Q to have any chance of fed gov.


    Huge issue is Balochistan entire Province & there most likely Elections will be 100 % engineered which is huge huge set back.


    No Delimitations of Constitiencies (Halqa Bundian) post Census as ECP said yesterday which again is huge setback for PTI. They should push for it in parliament and should go to SC too but time is too short for it sadly.


    A little example of PML N & Sharif's massive support in middle or lower middle class of Punjab




    @WebGuru @Moiza @Mamoon @uberkoen @Slog @Strike Rate


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

  28. #108
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    Last edited by Muhammad10; 25th June 2017 at 23:37.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

  29. #109
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    It's the saddest thing for us punjabis. Despite everything, we just can't rid ourselves of these blood suckers.

    Our own people have akal per purdey

  30. #110
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    As a (nominal) Punjabi, this party makes me hang my head in shame.

    The corruption, nepotism, incompetence and mollycoddling of maulvis one could find elsewhere, in other parties too. What sets this gang apart is their blatant disregard for not just the rest of the country, but the rest of the province too. Everything outside their northeastern core constituencies doesn't matter even a whit to them, regardless of the resentment that causes elsewhere.


    Silver-tongued seraphim circling the spire...
    Gather in the gallery in their best attire...

  31. #111
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    Let Panama case decision come and then see how the ship sinks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Clearly difficult concept to grasp for some.
    Sindh will never vote for anyone who isn't playing either muhajir or sindhi politics. Otherwise PTI can make government just by winning in rest of 3 provinces. PPP never needed whole punjab to make government in Islamabad.

    Punjab is important because there is competition between ruling party and opposition, that's why PTI spend time there and not in Sindh. Time to accept that and move on. Sindh/Karachi people don't matter one bit in politics of Pakistan anymore, it's KP/Punjab from now on. Bhutto is indeed dead and buried.
    Last edited by member250; 26th June 2017 at 01:19.

  33. #113
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    Nothing last for ever, in 5-10 years N will loss in Punjab. People will get tired of metro buses if more isn't done in health and education sectors

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11ShadyBrothers View Post
    The OP has more to do with hatred for everything Punjab than PTI/PMLN. Its ironic that the province Sindh has the worse case in terms of getting shackled than any other province yet our kind innocent friend sees Punjab in shackles. LOL.
    It's not hard to get rid of N from Islamabad even without punjab vote. If PTI can win in Sindh, Balochistan and KP/FATA with majority then they will have enough seats to make government in Islamabad.

  35. #115
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    Khotay khai jao, sher tay mora lai jao.


    Sehwag and Steyn are the Best.

  36. #116
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    This is an interesting thread and I have learned a fair amount and it has provoked, at least in me, a fair amount of thinking on the issues.

    Let me pick up on a few of the excellent points made. @waqar goraya in post 59 speaks of the importance personal influence based on ‘personal vote banks’. @Monsee in 63 also mentions ‘caste based voting’. This certainly draws attention to an important aspect of politics at the local level, which often revolves around patronage. As, the anthropologist Anastasia Piliavsky shows, for many patronage in South Asia is seen as upending modern democratic principles by challenging the idea of equality, autonomy and detachment that underpin liberal democratic thought. The ideal is said to be voters rising above themselves, above their own interests for the national or social good. But in patronage politics, voters are presented as acting in purely self-interested manner rather than for the greater good. Or alternatively they are presented as helpless victims of coercive localism and inequalities, seen as being exploited by patrons. The Muslim League has historically been seen as more adept at exploiting local attachments for national gain in the Punjab.

    But as Piliavsky demonstrates, at the same time we should also not lose sight of the fact that people do in fact look beyond calculated interest. Patrons look to justify their actions not in purely material terms, but as selfless service, as acts of generosity, a notion which has a deep resonance in South Asian society. Of course, whatever moral logic is adopted, often it is in fact instrumental gain that is key to the patrons manoeuvres, but the mere fact that they seek to legitimise actions in terms of selfless service is indicative of what voters in fact want: patrons not just haggling for self-interested gain but acting out of selflessness and generosity. If people are influenced by caste and biraderi attachments, it is often because they are searching for a bond, a connection that transcends self-interest. Therefore, voters see their action in moral terms not purely as a transactional business. There is an acceptance of inequality, that politicians stand apart from ordinary individuals but there is also a sense that the politicians have an obligation to provide.

    Related to this, @Tera Gawaandi in post 89 speaks of voting for the candidate rather than the party. There is indeed a great body of evidence that often people will vote in South Asia for whom they think will ‘get things done’, whether it is reliable supply of water and electricity, whether it is access to sugar and kerosene at affordable prices, or obtaining interest free loans, or dealing with family disputes, college applications, saving homes from demolition etc. Far from being irrational, this may in fact point to very rational behaviour. There is evidence that voters have become more demanding. Anatol Lieven in his book on Pakistan recalled the words of Amir Baksh Bhutto, son of Mumtaz Ali Bhutto and cousin of Benazir: 'We're the biggest landowning family in Sindh' (by most accounts it's actually the Jatois, but still). 'If the waderos still had absolute power do you think I'd be driving through this bloody desert, begging people to give me their vote? I'd sit at home, wouldn't I, and wait for people to come and present themselves.’

    Yet, there are problems here as well, which @Nostalgic details in post 112. Funds tend to be directed at the winners and there is a “blatant disregard for not just the rest of the country, but the rest of the province too.” Nicholas Martin has carried out a study in a district of Sargodha, focussing on the influence of big landlords in parts of Pakistan, which supports this. He has pointed to many issues: the state’s ability to deliver basic services is impaired and the lion’s share is taken by dominant patrons and ‘their’ biraderis to the exclusion of many. Social, economic and political power of certain patrons, ensures that they benefit the most and allows them to circumvent law and procedure. Patrons protect criminals and perpetuate corruption – unqualified teachers and doctors can obtain and hold posts of supported by patrons. Contracts are distributed to clan members. Voting is more easily rigged by those with influence and wealth. He argues it can also prevent class alignment amongst subaltern classes as they are tied to certain patrons. The breakdown of seypi system has led to breakdown of mutual obligations. Many dominant individuals’s children get schooling in cities, meaning education standards fall in villages as elites no longer have a stake in ensuring decent quality of teaching in the villages. Only those with money and influence can contest elections. Some landlords use threat of eviction or violence to get people to vote one way.

    Yet to complicate the picture, the fact of big landlords does not exist everywhere in the Punjab as endymion248 reminds us in post 54. Writing with wisdom, @endymion248 concentrated on northern Punjab, showing the importance of the aspirations of the smaller farmer, which cannot just be reduced to kinship considerations, a point I think the point also applies to central Punjab.

    I would also conclude by adding, that whilst local politics is indeed important, there are times when issues at a national level can overwhelm. For example, Phillip Jones in his study of the PPP argued that the vote in 1970s for the PPP “was a vote of opinion in favour of systemic change.” “It had been a vote for a party and its programme ... not for specific individuals.”

    There are other interesting points that have been made by people along the way, but I think that is enough for now.

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    Kebab queef is going to subjugate the masses for years to come.. Well his family will continue the terrible legacy.. Not sure how PPP and PML-N keep being voted in despite their endless shortcomings. Give someone new a chance, give change a chance... Ofc you won't, because as a nation you're addicted to 'Sadomasochism', why do you like pain being inflicted on you so goddamn much?

    P.S. Pakistan will not rise until and unless the garbage is finally thrown out. It's up to you as a nation to decide what you want your fate to be.

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    I just don't understand how you'd vote for PPP or Pml N if you're a Pakistani migrant. These two parties have failed you so you've had to struggle abroad to find justice and financial prosperity. Yet time and again I meet idiots who defend them here in the UK to slag off Imran Khan.

    If these people can't realise the truth that our system has been corrupted by these two families then no one else will. I long for the day when we have justice and fairness in Pakistan and out of the three main parties only in PTI do I have confidence. I want my parents to retire there but not whilst the crooks are in charge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    90% of people I know back PTI, the only people who I know who back PMLN are older people in their 50s and 60s.

    Anyone young in our country needs to have their brains checked if they back Noon League.
    That is mainly the case, we had lengthy discussion on politics few days ago at iftaar gathering with 7 people in their 30s and 40s and almost all supported PTI (some didn't follow politics at all), interestingly most of the parents of same group were mainly PMLN supporters and we were trying to make sure our discussion on Panama case didn't upset all the uncles. Most uncles were convinced that Panama case is Imran Khan's conspiracy against Sharifs with international lobby involved just to stop Nawaz Sharif making Pakistan an Asian tiger with CPEC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    That is mainly the case, we had lengthy discussion on politics few days ago at iftaar gathering with 7 people in their 30s and 40s and almost all supported PTI (some didn't follow politics at all), interestingly most of the parents of same group were mainly PMLN supporters and we were trying to make sure our discussion on Panama case didn't upset all the uncles. Most uncles were convinced that Panama case is Imran Khan's conspiracy against Sharifs with international lobby involved just to stop Nawaz Sharif making Pakistan an Asian tiger with CPEC.
    If I met someone like that in real life it'd be very hard to resist insulting their intelligence on their face.

    Thankfully all my relatives and friends support PTI so I've never had to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    As compared to the lottays in the PMLN who were all Musharaf's lackeys or a lot of them anyway? Daniyal Aziz being the biggest example.

    I mean if you're going to talk about pathetic candidates noone beats PMLN in that. Corrupt, murderers, thieves, sell-outs you name it PMLN will win hands down. The sitting PM of PMLN is undergoing massive corruption scandal and you talk about pathetic backgrounds.

    I'd even take PPP over PMLN, that's how terrible they are.
    @Syed1, @Slog where do I start with this post.
    This is exactly what my reaction was, where do we even start on this.

    Imran Khan has included some corrupt politicians so we must not support him and who do we support instead? PML Nawaz whose leader has dozens of corruption cases, SUPREME court has previously declared him the beneficiary of ISI fund distribution to topple sitting government. SUPREME court has labelled him mafia and Godfather and next in line Chief Justice has favoured his disqualification in Panama case. Sharif's party includes over 50% MNAs who belonged to PMLQ (Musharaff party), the party that was made after Musharaff kicked out Nawaz from the country. Almost all Sharif's loyalists have been accused in corruption cases.
    Last edited by Waseem; 27th June 2017 at 02:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by endymion248 View Post
    PTI has already accepted them en masse: Shah Mahmood Qureishi, Mian Afzal Hayat, Muhammad Afzal Gondal, Ch Mohammad Ilyas, Ghulam Sarwar Khan, Makhdoom Asad Hayat, Makhdoom Javed Hashmi, Jahanzeb Khan Khichi, Mian Ghaus Muhammad,... Beautiful list of progressive awaami leaders.
    On the one hand, you can draw historical parallels, here. You could point to the 1970 elections in West Pakistan, when the PPP despite its socialist ideology and promise to level the playing field had in its ranks the Noons, Gilanis and Qureshis in the Punjab and Talpurs, Jatois and Jam Sadiq Ali in Sindh. And in fact you can go even further to the 1946 election which eventually paved the way for the creation of Pakistan. Whilst ideologically denouncing the politics of local influence, and defining Pakistan in sharp counterpoint to such local politics, when it came to distributing tickets, the Muslim League was very careful to select those candidates that could wield influence in the localities even if meant passing over loyal party workers. This is not to deny the role of popular support and enthusiasm in the victories of the Muslim League and the People’s Party, only to point out that both parties felt compelled to turn to influential candidates to maximise and ensure victory.

    On the other hand, PTI’s enthusiastic band off supporters should take note of what the implications are. PTI claims to be transcending existing politics in offering themselves as transformative alternative. There is a distinct moral rhetoric when Imran Khan speaks. Yet, even before they have achieved power at the national level, they have ‘compromised’ with the system. It is not surprising, that his opponents will point to the gap in rhetoric and practice. My point here is not whether Imran Khan possesses sound political judgement - you can make your own mind up on this - but in his supporters assigning messianic type of power to him, they are overlooking the constraints he, or anyone, will have to work with. Pakistan’s problems are far too deep to be resolved by a single individual over a 5 year term. A healthy dose of realism is required.

    To return to historical parallels, after partition and independence, the Muslim League disintegrated and popular support dwindled. The Pakistan People’s Party, too, saw in the 1970s popular support dissipate. This was partly because both parties could not meet the expectations that their campaigns aroused. It is also because as institutions, the parties were in fact quite weak and more reliant on a strong leader. It is not clear that the PTI is any different. As Phillip Jones in his work on the PPP stated, when comparing the early PPP and Muslim League:

    “Both periods of decline followed periods of unity and electoral success produced by a mass movement strategy, which focused both on a dominant leader…and on a strategy that combined nationalism with a radical social program. Both the League and the PPP were essentially loose coalitions of diverse and competing interests and both parties had difficulties in maintaining their organizational boundaries or finding mechanisms to solve internal disputes. For both parties, the accession to power corroded party organizations and ended any pretense of party unity. As particularistic cleavages began to re-emerge, so too did the pattern of playing off powerful interprovincial interests, one against the other, and in both cases this ultimately rebounded to the advantage of the rural notables and the bureaucracy.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by KB View Post
    On the one hand, you can draw historical parallels, here. You could point to the 1970 elections in West Pakistan, when the PPP despite its socialist ideology and promise to level the playing field had in its ranks the Noons, Gilanis and Qureshis in the Punjab and Talpurs, Jatois and Jam Sadiq Ali in Sindh. And in fact you can go even further to the 1946 election which eventually paved the way for the creation of Pakistan. Whilst ideologically denouncing the politics of local influence, and defining Pakistan in sharp counterpoint to such local politics, when it came to distributing tickets, the Muslim League was very careful to select those candidates that could wield influence in the localities even if meant passing over loyal party workers. This is not to deny the role of popular support and enthusiasm in the victories of the Muslim League and the People’s Party, only to point out that both parties felt compelled to turn to influential candidates to maximise and ensure victory.

    On the other hand, PTI’s enthusiastic band off supporters should take note of what the implications are. PTI claims to be transcending existing politics in offering themselves as transformative alternative. There is a distinct moral rhetoric when Imran Khan speaks. Yet, even before they have achieved power at the national level, they have ‘compromised’ with the system. It is not surprising, that his opponents will point to the gap in rhetoric and practice. My point here is not whether Imran Khan possesses sound political judgement - you can make your own mind up on this - but in his supporters assigning messianic type of power to him, they are overlooking the constraints he, or anyone, will have to work with. Pakistan’s problems are far too deep to be resolved by a single individual over a 5 year term. A healthy dose of realism is required.

    To return to historical parallels, after partition and independence, the Muslim League disintegrated and popular support dwindled. The Pakistan People’s Party, too, saw in the 1970s popular support dissipate. This was partly because both parties could not meet the expectations that their campaigns aroused. It is also because as institutions, the parties were in fact quite weak and more reliant on a strong leader. It is not clear that the PTI is any different. As Phillip Jones in his work on the PPP stated, when comparing the early PPP and Muslim League:

    “Both periods of decline followed periods of unity and electoral success produced by a mass movement strategy, which focused both on a dominant leader…and on a strategy that combined nationalism with a radical social program. Both the League and the PPP were essentially loose coalitions of diverse and competing interests and both parties had difficulties in maintaining their organizational boundaries or finding mechanisms to solve internal disputes. For both parties, the accession to power corroded party organizations and ended any pretense of party unity. As particularistic cleavages began to re-emerge, so too did the pattern of playing off powerful interprovincial interests, one against the other, and in both cases this ultimately rebounded to the advantage of the rural notables and the bureaucracy.”
    Interesting analysis and agree on many things.

    If you were Imran Khan, what would you do in current situation? (Keeping in mind 35% tickets were given to youth candidates in 2013 and almost 70% were contesting elections for the FIRST time in 2013).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    Interesting analysis and agree on many things.

    If you were Imran Khan, what would you do in current situation? (Keeping in mind 35% tickets were given to youth candidates in 2013 and almost 70% were contesting elections for the FIRST time in 2013).
    Ill be very honest and I'm a supporter of IK and the PTI. He has zero chance in Punjab. The best way he can get in is somehow making inroads in sindh and balochistan and some inroads into Punjab. If he tries to put all his eggs in the punjab basket he has zero chance. And I tell you why. The PMLN are not just a political party they are a mafia. They have bought local ghunday, police, land mafia you name it. Its entrenched in the local environment. The only way to break this is to change the law and order situation in the punjab. Otherwise its the same **.

    Ill give you two examples on a personal level. A son of a local politician in my dads constituency is involved is part of the this land mafia. They ply the police with prostitutes and drink at their "adda" and then ensure that anybody selling any zameenain must first offer it to them at a knock down price or else. They are ll PMLN goons and local politicians.

    Another story, the local politician who represented PTI was an honest man who was well liked by the constituents, to counter him the PMLN brought in a ghunda from a constituency just next door, changed the constituency boundary slightly and he used his gullu-butts to get the votes out..just beat the PTI guy by a few thousand votes.

    and finally (to show the links to the uk) a local ghunda here in the uk, pakistani lad in and out of jail doing drugs etc, got in with the PMLN. A relative who knew him, needed some help with some zameen chukur back home. Said ghunda offers to help. They go to Pakistan and within a few hours the zameenain chukur is sorted. But now my relative gets abit jittery that the qabza group might try to take his land and as soon as he gets what ne needs he makes a quick (lucrative I might add) sale to another party before the ghunday can get a hold of the zameen...

    and there are many many stories like this. NS is a Godfather and his family are a mafia family. you dont fight them at the voting booth. You need an Eliott ness and his untouchables to do it..

  45. #125
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    ^^^^^^
    This is the harsh reality of Pakistani politics. This is the criminality that is unchecked and ignored but endorsed indirectly by the Sharifs to remain in power. Sharif could even be 'sharif' himself(which he is most certainly not) but on this alone he has to go.

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    I am not hopeful about the panama case as the way I see it supreme court removes sharifs and they get sympathy votes from idiots to win the next election. And I used to mind IK and Pti taking in the same thieves into its fold but I don't see them come to power without doing that. Looking at the improvements in Kpk with hopefully PTI staying in power for the next decade people will realise what a government of the people for the people really means. It will be to late for IK to come into power but hopefully others would have taken up the mantle by then.

  47. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waseem View Post
    Interesting analysis and agree on many things.

    If you were Imran Khan, what would you do in current situation? (Keeping in mind 35% tickets were given to youth candidates in 2013 and almost 70% were contesting elections for the FIRST time in 2013).
    Of course it is often argued that PTI’s core support comes from the urban localities, from especially the youth. But Pakistan electoral arithmetic favours rural constituencies. I understand that constituencies are still based on the 1998 census. If this is the case it is to the advantage of rural landowners rather than urban middle classes - the latter has of course substantially expanded since the last census. Yet, PTI seems organisationally weak in rural areas and as endymion248 suggests, they don't seem to offer much to the aspirational small farmer, other than platitudinous sloganeering.

    In this situation it would be tempting to co-opt individuals of local influence to try to garner votes in various constituencies, to compensate for the lack of rural PTI organisation. But in the long-term that would only weaken the party as it then becomes beholden to personality politics.

    Historically all parties in Pakistan have been to a varying degree, organisationally weak, too top-down, where personality and patronage trumps ideas and ‘out of the box’ thinking. Frankly, hitherto, PTI have not shown themselves to be much different in this regard.

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    آئینہ دکھایا تو برا مان گئے۔

    When you show them the Mirror they don't like it :-)


    Last edited by TalentSpotterPk; 1st July 2017 at 13:26.


    Mujhay hai Hukm e Azaa-n

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    i forgot to bump this



    #MPGA

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    Also Punjab wont be Punjab any longer iA

    South Punjab is in the future

    out of curiosity - if you divide Punjab by South Punjab and rest of Punjab, who won these hypothetical provinces? I am guessing PTI won South by a decent margin and PML-N won the other ?


    #MPGA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Also Punjab wont be Punjab any longer iA

    South Punjab is in the future

    out of curiosity - if you divide Punjab by South Punjab and rest of Punjab, who won these hypothetical provinces? I am guessing PTI won South by a decent margin and PML-N won the other ?
    PTI have an absolute majority in North Punjab, heck I think they dropped only 4-5 seats from there and rest they won. In central Punjab they got whalloped, this is the paindu belt of Pakistan so not surprised. In South they have majority. So if a South Punjab province materializes PTI will be in government there but might have to sit in opposition in the rest of Punjab province.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Also Punjab wont be Punjab any longer iA

    South Punjab is in the future

    out of curiosity - if you divide Punjab by South Punjab and rest of Punjab, who won these hypothetical provinces? I am guessing PTI won South by a decent margin and PML-N won the other ?
    A south punjab province without the saraiki belt of sindh and di khan would be a travesty.


    "Be the best version of yourself"

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    Insha Allah. My biggest problem with N league is that they have so many ghundas like Rana SanaUllah and no upcoming youngsters who can question these ghundas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    PTI have an absolute majority in North Punjab, heck I think they dropped only 4-5 seats from there and rest they won. In central Punjab they got whalloped, this is the paindu belt of Pakistan so not surprised. In South they have majority. So if a South Punjab province materializes PTI will be in government there but might have to sit in opposition in the rest of Punjab province.
    lol i checked https://www.votermaps.net/ to see this

    damn Central Punjab was a bloodbath in favor of Noon.

    but KPK (5,6 more than expected) , northern Punjab belt and Karachi pulled through


    #MPGA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    PTI have an absolute majority in North Punjab, heck I think they dropped only 4-5 seats from there and rest they won. In central Punjab they got whalloped, this is the paindu belt of Pakistan so not surprised. In South they have majority. So if a South Punjab province materializes PTI will be in government there but might have to sit in opposition in the rest of Punjab province.
    A better idea is to break Punjab down into three provinces. North, Central and South Punjab.

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    Khan absolutely cleaned up the nooras from power in punjab. They'll find no way back in years either i reckon. Difficult times but good times ahead for the province inshallah


    Alone we are Pathan, Punjabi, Sindhi and Balochi...together we are Pakistan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    PTI have an absolute majority in North Punjab, heck I think they dropped only 4-5 seats from there and rest they won. In central Punjab they got whalloped, this is the paindu belt of Pakistan so not surprised. In South they have majority. So if a South Punjab province materializes PTI will be in government there but might have to sit in opposition in the rest of Punjab province.
    I have a feeling that the arrangements for a South Punjab province will be put in place this term, and then it will only be implemented with the 2023 elections. PTI really can't afford to give PML-N any chance to come back.

    What's really needed right now is for local government empowerment to be implemented as soon as possible, this will allow South Punjab to have more control over their own development funds. That will resolve the immediate issues, the province can wait till 2023.


    “It is not defeat that destroys you, it is being demoralized by defeat that destroys you.”
    ― Imran Khan

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    Quote Originally Posted by corneredtiger85292 View Post
    Khan absolutely cleaned up the nooras from power in punjab. They'll find no way back in years either i reckon. Difficult times but good times ahead for the province inshallah
    Both won almost same seats so not sure how it is 'cleaning up'

    PTI cleaned up ANP in KPK in 2013 and MQM in Karachi in 2018

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Both won almost same seats so not sure how it is 'cleaning up'

    PTI cleaned up ANP in KPK in 2013 and MQM in Karachi in 2018
    Still a big thing. When was the last time somebody won Punjab besides PMLN? And PML Q doesn’t count because they won under th umbrella of a military dictator.


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