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  1. #1
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    Japan offers India soft loan for $15 billion bullet train in edge over China

    New Delhi: In a bid to surpass competition from China and other countries keen to be part of the first bullet train project, Japan has offered financial support besides technology for India’s ambitious rail project.
    Japan has offered to finance Mumbai-Ahmedabad high speed rail corridor estimated to cost about Rs 90,000 crore at an interest rate of less than one per cent, sources in Railway Ministry said.
    Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA) in its report submitted to the Railway Ministry has envisaged a reduction in the travel time on the 505-km long corridor between the two western cities to two hours from the existing period of over seven hours.

    The bullet train is expected to run at speeds of around 300-350 km/hour.
    Though there are many countries offering the high-speed technology for the bullet train project, it is Japan which is offering both technology and funding together, they said.
    However, they said, a decision on the project is yet to be taken by Railways because it will be decided at the highest level in the government.

    The JICA team had presented the report in July to the joint monitoring team here where a detailed presentation was made on traffic forecasting, alignment surveys and comparative study of high-speed railway technology.
    According to officials involved in the high-speed rail corridor project, Japan has offered to meet 80 per cent of the Mumbai-Ahmedabad project cost, on condition that India buys 30 per cent of equipment including the coaches and locomotives from Japanese firms.

    Source:http://www.financialexpress.com/arti...roject/155310/

  2. #2
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    Japanese help build and funded India's first successful metro project in Delhi and continues to fund in phase 3.

    India owes a lot to Japan, we should take their offer which is practically interest free.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lords View Post
    Japanese help build and funded India's first successful metro project in Delhi and continues to fund in phase 3.

    India owes a lot to Japan, we should take their offer which is practically interest free.
    The first metro project was in Kolkata way back in 1980s.

  4. #4
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    The Chinese also are going to offer a similar deal for the Delhi-Mumbai line.I believe both of them expect to operate the services,which i think will be good.

    Ask different companies/countries to submit proposal for building such high speed lines with technology and finance and offer them the operatorship of the lines.Thats the way to go about this.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    The first metro project was in Kolkata way back in 1980s.
    Yes i know, thats why i wrote Successful metro project.

    Kolkata took too long to build a small stretch and failed and never expended. It failed to inspire any new metro while delhi was ahead on time, on budget, well thought out and inspired other cities to take up metro project.

  6. #6
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    Go with the Japanese.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    The first metro project was in Kolkata way back in 1980s.
    1980? That is amazing. India has come a long way since then. I have always been vocal about the necessity of metro project in crowded cities. Most importantly, they add brand to the modern city. #Lucky Kolkata in 80's.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    The Chinese also are going to offer a similar deal for the Delhi-Mumbai line.I believe both of them expect to operate the services,which i think will be good.

    Ask different companies/countries to submit proposal for building such high speed lines with technology and finance and offer them the operatorship of the lines.Thats the way to go about this.
    Japan is the only one who offered building Bullet train with funding. Also they may agree on TOT and has lesser risk as compared to chinese investment.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen King View Post
    1980? That is amazing. India has come a long way since then. I have always been vocal about the necessity of metro project in crowded cities. Most importantly, they add brand to the modern city. #Lucky Kolkata in 80's.
    Well, the original plan started in 1949, it finally started construction in 72 and took 12 years to build 20 km UG.
    It was mighty slow and expensive and operated and built by Indian Railways.

    Delhi metro has built over 100 km in the same time. Delhi metro is about 200 Km right now while Kolkatta is still around 30 km. Though kolkatta has restarted expending few years ago but it will take some time to catch up with Delhi.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lords View Post
    Japan is the only one who offered building Bullet train with funding. Also they may agree on TOT and has lesser risk as compared to chinese investment.
    The chinese are doing the feasibility study and will then make the offer.It will be extremely unlikely that the Chinese will allow themselves to be outdone by the Japanese.

    Plus i believe the Chinese model is cheaper.

    I believe the GOI must invite tenders and mark out the lines and ask companies to bid to make the lines and operate.The germans and French are still not here.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen King View Post
    1980? That is amazing. India has come a long way since then. I have always been vocal about the necessity of metro project in crowded cities. Most importantly, they add brand to the modern city. #Lucky Kolkata in 80's.
    Too dirty.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    The Chinese also are going to offer a similar deal for the Delhi-Mumbai line.I believe both of them expect to operate the services,which i think will be good.

    Ask different companies/countries to submit proposal for building such high speed lines with technology and finance and offer them the operatorship of the lines.Thats the way to go about this.
    Pardon my ignorance, I'm completely ignorant about economics as my field is totally alien to it, but I have a huge interest in learning about it. What are the incentives for a country like China/Japan in building infrastructure in a developing countries? I know it is not in the country's best interests to have one country monopolising all the infrastructure development in it, but I've read the Chinese have huge investments in Pakistan and a few developing African countries, what is the benefit to China with such a policy and what can be the drawbacks of allowing one country to monopolise all the infrastructure development in the country?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, I'm completely ignorant about economics as my field is totally alien to it, but I have a huge interest in learning about it. What are the incentives for a country like China/Japan in building infrastructure in a developing countries? I know it is not in the country's best interests to have one country monopolising all the infrastructure development in it, but I've read the Chinese have huge investments in Pakistan and a few developing African countries, what is the benefit to China with such a policy and what can be the drawbacks of allowing one country to monopolise all the infrastructure development in the country?
    They will get operatorship of these lines and mint profit by operating these lines.The bigger thing that these soft loans will mean that the equipment will have to be bought from these countries only there by giving the companies of these countries huge orders.As these are loans the host country will ultimately return the money with some interest.So in long term the investor country gets its money back with interest.The equipment companies get huge orders.The operating company will make profits when they operate the lines.They also get strategic depth in the country they are investing.

  14. #14
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    Money can be put to better use. Realistically, we don't need it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    They will get operatorship of these lines and mint profit by operating these lines.The bigger thing that these soft loans will mean that the equipment will have to be bought from these countries only there by giving the companies of these countries huge orders.As these are loans the host country will ultimately return the money with some interest.So in long term the investor country gets its money back with interest.The equipment companies get huge orders.The operating company will make profits when they operate the lines.They also get strategic depth in the country they are investing.
    So India too gets a share from the operatorship of such lines as the JICA aren't fully investing in the cost?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zak_Fan View Post
    Money can be put to better use. Realistically, we don't need it.
    Infrastructure development is a huge part in developing the country's economy, but I think our old railway system can be upgraded. We have been using pretty much the same rolling stock for a number of years now and I think they can be upgraded a bit.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    Infrastructure development is a huge part in developing the country's economy, but I think our old railway system can be upgraded. We have been using pretty much the same rolling stock for a number of years now and I think they can be upgraded a bit.
    I understand that, but we should be going for relevant infrastructure update, something that really does make a difference. This is a $15 billion investment for a single 500km journey. What's the point?

    You are right about upgrading our existing railway network. $15 billion can do wonders to it. Why not improve the existing facilities with that money?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    So India too gets a share from the operatorship of such lines as the JICA aren't fully investing in the cost?
    I think JICA is fully funding the line.But joint operatorship cant be ruled out.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zak_Fan View Post
    I understand that, but we should be going for relevant infrastructure update, something that really does make a difference. This is a $15 billion investment for a single 500km journey. What's the point?

    You are right about upgrading our existing railway network. $15 billion can do wonders to it. Why not improve the existing facilities with that money?
    There is something called opportunity cost. We use their money to build bullet train and the money we would have invested can be used for better cause of more priorities.
    If China or Japan or anyone else was offering similar deal to upgrade entire railways then i think we will take that one too, but right now offer is for bullet train only.

    If we decide to build these bullet trains later then the cost would go up and the economic benefits we could have had until then would go away.
    Delhi metro is a good example, we could have waited until we had money or we took money from japan and built it. DM has benefited delhi in many ways including economical benefits. Life would be worse in Delhi without metro and also investment follows in a city which has better infrastructure.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    I think JICA is fully funding the line.But joint operatorship cant be ruled out.
    Not fully. JICA is funding 80% of the cost.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    Not fully. JICA is funding 80% of the cost.
    Then most likely it would be joint operatorship.I dont want the Indian Railways to run this alone.No way.

  22. #22
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    Why Mumbai Ahmedabad ? It should be Mumbai Delhi , connecting the two major cities.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lords View Post
    There is something called opportunity cost. We use their money to build bullet train and the money we would have invested can be used for better cause of more priorities.
    If China or Japan or anyone else was offering similar deal to upgrade entire railways then i think we will take that one too, but right now offer is for bullet train only.

    If we decide to build these bullet trains later then the cost would go up and the economic benefits we could have had until then would go away.
    Delhi metro is a good example, we could have waited until we had money or we took money from japan and built it. DM has benefited delhi in many ways including economical benefits. Life would be worse in Delhi without metro and also investment follows in a city which has better infrastructure.
    Sounds like a reasonable explanation, thanks.

  24. #24
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    Bullet trains are the hot topic in the SC. Nawaz Sharif was making promises years ago, although whether he delivered is another matter.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lords View Post
    There is something called opportunity cost. We use their money to build bullet train and the money we would have invested can be used for better cause of more priorities.
    If China or Japan or anyone else was offering similar deal to upgrade entire railways then i think we will take that one too, but right now offer is for bullet train only.

    If we decide to build these bullet trains later then the cost would go up and the economic benefits we could have had until then would go away.
    Delhi metro is a good example, we could have waited until we had money or we took money from japan and built it. DM has benefited delhi in many ways including economical benefits. Life would be worse in Delhi without metro and also investment follows in a city which has better infrastructure.
    Couldn't a portion of the investment be put to improving the current metro system in major cities, while the rest be put to bringing better railway connectivity throughout india?? I don't think a 500 km raikway track is worth 15 billion dollars.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain123 View Post
    Couldn't a portion of the investment be put to improving the current metro system in major cities, while the rest be put to bringing better railway connectivity throughout india?? I don't think a 500 km raikway track is worth 15 billion dollars.
    High speed railway can be quite expensive costing upto 100-140 crores per km of track, atleast that is what our railway minister says.

    http://m.ndtv.com/profit/high-speed-...0-crore-747033

  27. #27
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    The ticket for the bullet train will be too expensive for the people who actually use train service.

    Ameer admi tou jahaz pe hi jayega..


    Inzi is the best selector in the world

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by hussain123 View Post
    Couldn't a portion of the investment be put to improving the current metro system in major cities, while the rest be put to bringing better railway connectivity throughout india?? I don't think a 500 km raikway track is worth 15 billion dollars.
    Every metro is either private or a independent corporation. Only Kolkata metro is owned by Indian Railways, so you cannot transfer funds from one project to another. Also the lender will not agree to it, they would want their money to be spent on agreed project only.

    BTW Japan and German banks are already funding many metros in India as well as other projects. Mumbai metro and Gurgoan metros on the other hand is private run by reliance and DLF by their own funds.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    The ticket for the bullet train will be too expensive for the people who actually use train service.

    Ameer admi tou jahaz pe hi jayega..
    With economic corridor running through mumbai gujrat delhi i think there will be many who would travel in it. I am sure they have done economic feasibility study of the project. There are many people would would love to travel between these cities and back in the same day while cost wont be an issue.
    Also yes, bullet train will have to compete with airlines on price.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Rishwat View Post
    Bullet trains are the hot topic in the SC. Nawaz Sharif was making promises years ago, although whether he delivered is another matter.
    I think high speed railway won't be feasible for Pakistan right now. Even for a relatively bigger economy, India can barely fund for even a small stretch of high speed railway as its costs can go over the roof (in excess of 10m/km), which may end up consuming useful revenue which can be allocated in better cost effective infrastructure projects. I think the metro railway system can be built in the major cities of Pakistan as it will cost much lesser and will also be highly beneficial for the Pakistani public too, especially in a crowded city like Karachi. I read that China was funding the Orange line metro rail project in Lahore. The metro chief of India Mr.Sreedharan even visited Lahore to study the feasibility of building the tracks, which was positive. Don't know how it is progressing.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    I think high speed railway won't be feasible for Pakistan right now. Even for a relatively bigger economy, India can barely fund for even a small stretch of high speed railway as its costs can go over the roof (in excess of 10m/km), which may end up consuming useful revenue which can be allocated in better cost effective infrastructure projects. I think the metro railway system can be built in the major cities of Pakistan as it will cost much lesser and will also be highly beneficial for the Pakistani public too, especially in a crowded city like Karachi. I read that China was funding the Orange line metro rail project in Lahore. The metro chief of India Mr.Sreedharan even visited Lahore to study the feasibility of building the tracks, which was positive. Don't know how it is progressing.
    The mastermind behind the Delhi metro came to Lahore, approved the preliminary designs and also offered his services when needed.

    But Pakistani politicians only focus on projects that can be completed within their tenure otherwise someone else might take the credit for it..

    The Lahore metro service was to have 5 lines but they are only building the Orange one at the moment. The Karachi metro project is yet to kick off and probably won't do so in the next 5-10 years, even though the design has been long approved.


    Inzi is the best selector in the world

  32. #32
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    Good news for Patels.

    As Joshila mentioned above, I would not want Indian railways to maintain it. Hopefully some responsible Private firm manages and maintains it.


    Indian phast bowlers can only bowl at 100k and they lose their radar striving for that extra 20k.

  33. #33
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    350km per hour wont the people sitting on the roof get blown off.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    350km per hour wont the people sitting on the roof get blown off.
    Maybe they should design them with handles on the roof so people can hang on at high speeds.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    350km per hour wont the people sitting on the roof get blown off.
    There will be belts.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    350km per hour wont the people sitting on the roof get blown off.
    The train is run between Mumbai and Gujrat.

    Roof top raiders are found mainly in Bihar & Uttar Pradesh.


    Indian phast bowlers can only bowl at 100k and they lose their radar striving for that extra 20k.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    The mastermind behind the Delhi metro came to Lahore, approved the preliminary designs and also offered his services when needed.

    But Pakistani politicians only focus on projects that can be completed within their tenure otherwise someone else might take the credit for it..

    The Lahore metro service was to have 5 lines but they are only building the Orange one at the moment. The Karachi metro project is yet to kick off and probably won't do so in the next 5-10 years, even though the design has been long approved.
    This is true though. Even in Chennai, when the current opposing party was in rule a few years back, it proposed metro rail for the 2nd phase of expansion. But as soon as the current govt came to power, it was changed to monorail and all the plans which were previously laid out were scrapped, only to receive no tenders for the monorail. This is where a one party rule as in China can be highly beneficial which can allow uninterrupted infrastructure development, and not for short term gains to garner votes. Unfortunately, our subcontinental politicians can't hold a candle to their Chinese counterparts who revolutionised China within a space of few decades.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Cobra View Post
    Why Mumbai Ahmedabad ? It should be Mumbai Delhi , connecting the two major cities.
    Mumbai-Ahmedbad is major economic corridor.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lords View Post
    Japanese help build and funded India's first successful metro project in Delhi and continues to fund in phase 3.

    India owes a lot to Japan, we should take their offer which is practically interest free.
    150 million just in interest dude, I think India can afford to build one without the 1% interest.

  40. #40
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    Which city in India has the worst traffic ? I heard in Dhaka sometimes it takes 3 hours to get to a destination that is 10km away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thivagar View Post
    150 million just in interest dude, I think India can afford to build one without the 1% interest.
    Fiscal deficit is high. India can't afford spending such a huge amount out of budget. It will decrease the ratings. Standard's and poor has rated India BBB- . India can't afford a decrease else FDI and overseas loans won't happen.
    Private sector doesn't have the muscle to invest 15 billion dollars in a single project. No bank will provide such a loan.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    350km per hour wont the people sitting on the roof get blown off.
    They go under vigorous trainings like this

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thivagar View Post
    Which city in India has the worst traffic ? I heard in Dhaka sometimes it takes 3 hours to get to a destination that is 10km away.
    I've heard the traffic can be quite a problem in Bangalore because its roads can be a bit narrow and cramped up. It wasn't really a planned city but the IT revolution just created a boom in the city within a few years and now it's one of the most sought after places to get settled in India.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    The mastermind behind the Delhi metro came to Lahore, approved the preliminary designs and also offered his services when needed.

    But Pakistani politicians only focus on projects that can be completed within their tenure otherwise someone else might take the credit for it..

    The Lahore metro service was to have 5 lines but they are only building the Orange one at the moment. The Karachi metro project is yet to kick off and probably won't do so in the next 5-10 years, even though the design has been long approved.
    That guy, Mr E Shreedharan actually helped in all other metros in India as well. He would look in to feasibility study, align the designs, bring his experience in fixing problems and at times use his connections to get funding if he believes in the project.
    He was also considered to be president of India but Congress went with rewarding their old guard mukherjee.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by street cricketer View Post
    I've heard the traffic can be quite a problem in Bangalore because its roads can be a bit narrow and cramped up. It wasn't really a planned city but the IT revolution just created a boom in the city within a few years and now it's one of the most sought after places to get settled in India.
    Always wanted to know about Hyderabad and how it deals with its population. In 2003 the population of Hyderabad was about 3.5 million and now it is up to 9 million. That is HUGE !!!!!. Wonder how it deals with that kind of increase. ALMOST by 300% in a decade .

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yatoo View Post
    Fiscal deficit is high. India can't afford spending such a huge amount out of budget. It will decrease the ratings. Standard's and poor has rated India BBB- . India can't afford a decrease else FDI and overseas loans won't happen.
    Private sector doesn't have the muscle to invest 15 billion dollars in a single project. No bank will provide such a loan.
    Doesn't India have the longest railway network in terms of km and passenger movement ? They can't do anything about that ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lords View Post
    That guy, Mr E Shreedharan actually helped in all other metros in India as well. He would look in to feasibility study, align the designs, bring his experience in fixing problems and at times use his connections to get funding if he believes in the project.
    He was also considered to be president of India but Congress went with rewarding their old guard mukherjee.
    You only need a handful of such folks to change an entire nation..


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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thivagar View Post
    They go under vigorous trainings like this
    He makes it look easy.

  49. #49
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    Some questions :

    The cost to the average rider will be too high I think. Will the government susidizize the tickets?

    On another note. Are Delhi and other recent metros subsidised. If no I assume they were economical from the go. What was the pay off period?

    Finally. When the metros were being set up did they have unanimous support or was their criticism?

  50. #50
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    I'd rather have Indian Railways develop and upgrade the existing infrastructure. Why bullet trains when you can travel via airplanes?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandeep View Post
    I'd rather have Indian Railways develop and upgrade the existing infrastructure. Why bullet trains when you can travel via airplanes?

    Cheaper.
    More comfortable at lower price point.
    Environmentally friendly
    It takes usually 20% more time than what you would spend in aviation but the associated things like getting to airport an hour in advance and whatnot is not as time consuming

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Some questions :

    The cost to the average rider will be too high I think. Will the government susidizize the tickets?

    On another note. Are Delhi and other recent metros subsidised. If no I assume they were economical from the go. What was the pay off period?

    Finally. When the metros were being set up did they have unanimous support or was their criticism?
    First about metro, Delhi metro is one of the few metros in the world with operational profit, so tickets are not subsidized. They are making their loan payments on time so far but i think they will need some govt help in future. Metro makes money through many ways, through tickets ofcourse, through ads which are pretty expensive, with parking, with retail outlets at station, carbon credits from UN, and now Delhi metro are making malls with a floor for train station, that way customer can step down from metro directly in to a mall and go back without coming out in harsh weather.
    One thing you will have to realize that these kind of projects are never money making projects, its duty of govt to provide certain facilities for citizens from the taxpayers money such as roads, water , sewage etc. Govt only charges you for service not for construction of those projects. Hope is that at some point economy will do better and they can raise cost of tickets, right now they are dirt cheap. And as the economy grows the initial cost will be afforadable for the govt to pay off.

    Now about Bullet train, we dont know the financial model yet but i am sure govt will give them tax breaks, at cost electricity, etc. Bullet trains are expensive affairs with socio economical effects coming in direct and indirect ways. I personally think that govt should focus more on increasing the average speed of our normal trains to 200 km/hr through the nation instead of expensive bullet trains. Bullet trains will be more afforadable when built in huge number.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    The ticket for the bullet train will be too expensive for the people who actually use train service.

    Ameer admi tou jahaz pe hi jayega..
    There are as many as 22 non-stop flights between this city pair:

    http://www.cleartrip.com/flights/res...rDuration=0-20

    Pretty sure there'll be takers for a speedier train.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lords View Post
    Yes i know, thats why i wrote Successful metro project.

    Kolkata took too long to build a small stretch and failed and never expended. It failed to inspire any new metro while delhi was ahead on time, on budget, well thought out and inspired other cities to take up metro project.
    Well they clearly haven't inspired these sods in Bangalore enough. The metro here is still a bits-n-pieces line, with no end in sight.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Some questions :

    The cost to the average rider will be too high I think. Will the government susidizize the tickets?

    On another note. Are Delhi and other recent metros subsidised. If no I assume they were economical from the go. What was the pay off period?

    Finally. When the metros were being set up did they have unanimous support or was their criticism?
    When Delhi metro started in 2002, the starting fare was set to Rs. 8 and even now the maximum fare is Rs. 42. It wasn't subsidised but it needn't be. For residents of Delhi, metro came as a blessing. For common man, who was used to stuck in long jams in crowded bus in the scorching heat, paying some extra money for air conditioned travel didn't hurt. On an average 27 Lakh commuters use metro everyday which makes it quite a profitable venture.


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  56. #56
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    India ready to kick-start first bullet train project

    Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Japanese counterpart Shinzo Abe will break ground on India's first bullet train project on Thursday in western Gujarat state, as the country seeks faster travel for millions.

    Modi has pledged to invest billions of dollars to modernise India's creaking railway system, with the bullet train one of his key election promises ahead of his landslide victory in 2014.

    The leaders will lay the foundation stone of the high-speed rail network between Ahmedabad and India's financial hub of Mumbai on September 14, a statement by the Gujarat government said Saturday.

    Japan is a pioneer in high-speed rail networks, and its Shinkansen bullet train is among the fastest in the world.

    Japan will provide 85 percent of the total project cost of $19 billion in soft loans.

    The train will reduce the travel time between the two cities from eight to three-3.5 hours, and is expected to complete by December 2023. It will have a capacity of 750 passengers.

    India's traditional railway network is the world's fourth largest by distance and remains the vast country's main form of travel, with 22 million passengers commuting daily.

    But passengers have to often endure chronic delays in journeys on the British-era network, where only a few trains hit 100 miles per hour, and which has been hit by series of deadly crashes in past years.

    Modi recently replaced his railway minister after a series of derailments, including one last month which killed at least 23 passengers in the northern Uttar Pradesh state.

    In November, 146 people died in a similar disaster in Uttar Pradesh.

    Abe's two-day visit to Ahmedabad comes ahead of Modi's 67th birthday on Sunday. Modi has a history of 'birthday diplomacy' in his home state, hosting Chinese President Xi Jinping in Gujarat on his birthday in 2014.

    The two leaders are expected to sign several agreements during the visit and inaugurate a Japanese industrial park in the state that already hosts Honda and Suzuki auto plants.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1356814/in...-train-project

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yatoo View Post
    Fiscal deficit is high. India can't afford spending such a huge amount out of budget. It will decrease the ratings. Standard's and poor has rated India BBB- . India can't afford a decrease else FDI and overseas loans won't happen.
    Private sector doesn't have the muscle to invest 15 billion dollars in a single project. No bank will provide such a loan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thivagar View Post
    Doesn't India have the longest railway network in terms of km and passenger movement ? They can't do anything about that ?
    $15 billion is a trifling amount for a country with $400 billion in foreign exchange reserves:

    https://www.rbi.org.in/scripts/WSSView.aspx?Id=21639

  58. #58
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    Billions in Soft loan at 0.1 interest rate. That is what you get when are able to negotiate with countries and companies trying to invest in building infrastructure from you. This is still a good deal for Japan, because all of the loaned money will be used to purchase Japanese equipment and expertise, keeping those companies running and profitable, which in turn will pay taxes to their government and have a trickle-down effect from that point.

    I know my Pakistani brothers get sensitive anytime an Indian asks any question about the great CPEC - the magical project that is going to make Pakistan great again - but last I checked, CPEC is primarily about Chinese giving old technology coal-fired power plants and building roads which will generate guaranteed profits for Chinese companies - companies that have all their infrastructure equipment sitting idle if not for this project. And add to that the loans are not even at low interest rates - they are at comparable to commercial loans would cost. Why did the Pakistan government agree to such terms? Oh, and apparently they also opened up the agriculture sector to the Chinese, regardless of what impact that might have on local farmers.

    Doesn't seem like a good deal to me. But then again, I'm just a jealous Indian right?

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndYeah1 View Post
    Billions in Soft loan at 0.1 interest rate. That is what you get when are able to negotiate with countries and companies trying to invest in building infrastructure from you. This is still a good deal for Japan, because all of the loaned money will be used to purchase Japanese equipment and expertise, keeping those companies running and profitable, which in turn will pay taxes to their government and have a trickle-down effect from that point.

    I know my Pakistani brothers get sensitive anytime an Indian asks any question about the great CPEC - the magical project that is going to make Pakistan great again - but last I checked, CPEC is primarily about Chinese giving old technology coal-fired power plants and building roads which will generate guaranteed profits for Chinese companies - companies that have all their infrastructure equipment sitting idle if not for this project. And add to that the loans are not even at low interest rates - they are at comparable to commercial loans would cost. Why did the Pakistan government agree to such terms? Oh, and apparently they also opened up the agriculture sector to the Chinese, regardless of what impact that might have on local farmers.

    Doesn't seem like a good deal to me. But then again, I'm just a jealous Indian right?
    Japan has very low interest rate,thus the reason for the amount,Tamil Nadu has most loans from Japan due to similar reason,its not about negotiation as such in this case.


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  60. #60
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    Tbh there is need of improving and expanding existing rail network and metro services, spending too much money on one project is not the need at the moment, if the purpose of project is to reduce traveling time for common people then it's better to start low cost flight services.

  61. #61
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    A two hour travel time between Ahmedabad and Mumbai (down from ~8 hours) is incredible. The flying time between these two cities is just over an hour and add in getting to the airport early, going through security, waiting for baggage at the other end (if you have any) etc and you'd be better off getting this new train.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabbar Singh View Post
    A two hour travel time between Ahmedabad and Mumbai (down from ~8 hours) is incredible. The flying time between these two cities is just over an hour and add in getting to the airport early, going through security, waiting for baggage at the other end (if you have any) etc and you'd be better off getting this new train.
    520 km and it takes 8 hours? Its a really bad road then.Does India have any motorway?

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndYeah1 View Post
    Billions in Soft loan at 0.1 interest rate. That is what you get when are able to negotiate with countries and companies trying to invest in building infrastructure from you. This is still a good deal for Japan, because all of the loaned money will be used to purchase Japanese equipment and expertise, keeping those companies running and profitable, which in turn will pay taxes to their government and have a trickle-down effect from that point.

    I know my Pakistani brothers get sensitive anytime an Indian asks any question about the great CPEC - the magical project that is going to make Pakistan great again - but last I checked, CPEC is primarily about Chinese giving old technology coal-fired power plants and building roads which will generate guaranteed profits for Chinese companies - companies that have all their infrastructure equipment sitting idle if not for this project. And add to that the loans are not even at low interest rates - they are at comparable to commercial loans would cost. Why did the Pakistan government agree to such terms? Oh, and apparently they also opened up the agriculture sector to the Chinese, regardless of what impact that might have on local farmers.

    Doesn't seem like a good deal to me. But then again, I'm just a jealous Indian right?
    The interest rate is largely irrelevant if most of the equipment has to be bought from the country providing the loans, because you're removing the competitive factor in obtaining the best/cheapest prices, ie equipment suppliers from other countries bidding lower prices.

    So what you save in interest rates is offset by higher prices.

    Akin to, say, buying a car from a dealer on hire purchase at, supposedly, "0%" interest rate, versus negotiating and buying with cash. Usually works out cheaper to get the loan from a bank (if you can), at normal bank rates, and then negotiate and buy the car with cash.

    On a side note:

    This is also the problem with "aid" provided to 3rd world countries by western countries. The "aid" has strings attached, such as the money has to be spent on buying the products and services from the country providing the "aid".

    It also has a side factor in that in the long term the "aid" receiving country also becomes dependent upon the "aid" donating countries suppliers (for after sales support and maintenance).

    This also the case with military "aid".


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    The interest rate is largely irrelevant if most of the equipment has to be bought from the country providing the loans, because you're removing the competitive factor in obtaining the best/cheapest prices, ie equipment suppliers from other countries bidding lower prices.

    So what you save in interest rates is offset by higher prices.

    Akin to, say, buying a car from a dealer on hire purchase at, supposedly, "0%" interest rate, versus negotiating and buying with cash. Usually works out cheaper to get the loan from a bank (if you can), at normal bank rates, and then negotiate and buy the car with cash.

    On a side note:

    This is also the problem with "aid" provided to 3rd world countries by western countries. The "aid" has strings attached, such as the money has to be spent on buying the products and services from the country providing the "aid".

    It also has a side factor in that in the long term the "aid" receiving country also becomes dependent upon the "aid" donating countries suppliers (for after sales support and maintenance).

    This also the case with military "aid".
    Interest rate and time of repayment is very important because there are only 3-4 countries who offer this technology.Out of it China is out due to security considerations, so they will never get an actual contract though they may do studies.

    All High speed railway lines in India will be on DBFOT basis.So there were various offers including from China Germany and France out if which the Japanese one was chosen.

  65. #65
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    Is there actually much traffic between these two cities and justifiable economic case for such expense. Why not upgrade and increase capacity for millions who use railways and narrowly escape death to get into Mumbai on a daily basis.......

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Is there actually much traffic between these two cities and justifiable economic case for such expense. Why not upgrade and increase capacity for millions who use railways and narrowly escape death to get into Mumbai on a daily basis.......
    No reason why both can't be done simultaneously. As is happening.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Is there actually much traffic between these two cities and justifiable economic case for such expense. Why not upgrade and increase capacity for millions who use railways and narrowly escape death to get into Mumbai on a daily basis.......
    Huge commercial and business travel between these two cities.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Huge commercial and business travel between these two cities.
    Mumbai Pune, Mumbai Ahmedabad are the two busiest routes you can think of, between them (combined) I bet there's more traffic than Mumbai Delhi & Delhi has a pop equal to Mumbai, higher if you include NCR.
    Last edited by R0H1T; 12th September 2017 at 11:08.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Huge commercial and business travel between these two cities.
    high speed rail is to carry passengers I presume, is there really that big a demand of people wanting to travel daily between the two cities on this mode of transport?

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndYeah1 View Post
    No reason why both can't be done simultaneously. As is happening.
    Is it happening?

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    high speed rail is to carry passengers I presume, is there really that big a demand of people wanting to travel daily between the two cities on this mode of transport?
    As i said the Business travel is huge.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    As i said the Business travel is huge.
    You will have thousands of business people travel between these two cities daily? Things that cannot be done through online meetings?

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    You will have thousands of business people travel between these two cities daily? Things that cannot be done through online meetings?
    Yes.Mumbai-Pune and Mumbai Ahmedabad is the busiest route in India.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    Yes.Mumbai-Pune and Mumbai Ahmedabad is the busiest route in India.
    The projection is that they need 40,000 people to use it daily and it encompasses other major cities along the route as well.... should get that number easily if the prices are reasonable

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Is it happening?
    Yes. Indian Railways have been steadily improving over the last 10 years. Its not just this administration. Given the massive size of the system, it will take time for the standards to be consistent across the board, but the biggest factor in improving things is always money - which has stopped being an issue in the last few years. Of course, the improvements are not happening as quickly as they could, but that's understandable given the nature of the organization - its a slow moving govt bureaucracy, after all.

    Indian Railways gets a lot of flak and criticism, and some of it is well-deserved. But at the end of the day, its providing a very important and huge service to the native population, at a subsidized cost. If they keep up the rate of improvement, things will look amazingly better 10 years from now.

    Now, I agree with your point in general, that such targeted improvements on cleanliness, upgrading the stations and platforms, improving automation on the safety front etc, should be more of a priority than bullet trains. The former will have a greater impact on a much larger user base. But politicians are always attracted to "big-ticket" projects. And to be fair, the business case for high speed rail in India is very sound. And Bombay-Ahmedabad is a busy enough route to justify the project as the first 'proof of concept' bullet train route in India.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    The interest rate is largely irrelevant if most of the equipment has to be bought from the country providing the loans, because you're removing the competitive factor in obtaining the best/cheapest prices, ie equipment suppliers from other countries bidding lower prices.

    So what you save in interest rates is offset by higher prices.

    Akin to, say, buying a car from a dealer on hire purchase at, supposedly, "0%" interest rate, versus negotiating and buying with cash. Usually works out cheaper to get the loan from a bank (if you can), at normal bank rates, and then negotiate and buy the car with cash.

    On a side note:

    This is also the problem with "aid" provided to 3rd world countries by western countries. The "aid" has strings attached, such as the money has to be spent on buying the products and services from the country providing the "aid".

    It also has a side factor in that in the long term the "aid" receiving country also becomes dependent upon the "aid" donating countries suppliers (for after sales support and maintenance).

    This also the case with military "aid".
    Your point about competitive choice is theoretically correct, but does not really apply in this specific case. There are only 3 competitors overall to provide fast train tech - Japan, China and France. Japan is offering extremely attractive financing because it needs the project badly. I'm willing to bet China would have given equal or cheaper terms, but the trust factor is not there between India and China. And hand on your heart - if you ask yourself, which tech would be better choosing between Japan and China, I think you know your answer.


    Btw, The Indian government's plan regarding bullet trains is not limited to just "buying" the train off the shelf from Japan. The long-term idea is to use the initial couple of projects to build local expertise and manufacturing capacity, so that additional routes can be added by building in-house, and in a best case scenario, even export. There are plenty of other routes where bullet trains would really make a lot of sense - Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai, Cochin is an obvious choice. Delhi-Jaipur-Agra - potentially extending to Calcutta or interior UP etc would be another. And IIRC Japan has already committed to technology transfer in this project.

    Chest-thumping about India's progress and all that aside, even objectively speaking, I think the government of India has done a decent job so far in planning and getting this project started. Hopefully they keep up the trend in terms of implementation as well.

    I think its still not too late for Pakistan to negotiate the nitty gritty and details of the various infrastructure projects that fall within CPEC. Pakistan should not make the mistake of just accepting the terms offered by the Chinese. Its not in the best interests of Pakistan to just be a retail-level consumer/buyer of the roads or power-plants that the Chinese are off-loading - in many cases, its clearly not the latest and greatest in terms of tech anyway. India has made that mistake in the past - our military procurement from the Russians had zero local components, and the Russians have looted us for decades when it comes to maintenance and spare-parts. My intent in this post is not to praise India and criticize Pakistan. Hope that intent comes through.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Is it happening?
    Forgot to add - I have travelled quite frequently by rail in Western India - specifically on the Bombay-Gujarat corridor. Growing in India in the 80s and 90s, as well as every time I go to India to visit. And I have seen first-hand the improvements made by the Railways. To this day, I will prefer to travel by 'express trains' in that sector over flying. I like train travel And I make it a point to check out trains in other places where I travel - Switzerland, Italy, UK etc . I would love to even go to China just for that Mag-lev train, and to japan to ride their "Shinkasen" network.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle_Eye View Post
    Is there actually much traffic between these two cities and justifiable economic case for such expense. Why not upgrade and increase capacity for millions who use railways and narrowly escape death to get into Mumbai on a daily basis.......
    It's the story all over the 3rd world countries. Prestige projects that benefit those well off, at the expense of the masses who's lives could be improved to a far greater extent with the same level of investment.

    Shaving a few hours on journey times for a few tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of the well off ( - they have to be well off in order to afford the ticket prices), is far more important than providing half-decent railways for the other 20+ million that use Indian railways on a daily basis.

    And oh, the disruption caused to farmers and communities through which the railway lines run and the trains speed along at 300+ km per hour, but none of them can get on these bullet trains since they don't stop at stations, bar one or two, on it's route. They wouldn't be "bullet" trains that shave off hours if they have to stop frequently at stations along the way. Like window shopping but knowing you can't get in/allowed in even if you have the money to buy the products being sold.


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    It's the story all over the 3rd world countries. Prestige projects that benefit those well off, at the expense of the masses who's lives could be improved to a far greater extent with the same level of investment.

    Shaving a few hours on journey times for a few tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of the well off ( - they have to be well off in order to afford the ticket prices), is far more important than providing half-decent railways for the other 20+ million that use Indian railways on a daily basis.

    And oh, the disruption caused to farmers and communities through which the railway lines run and the trains speed along at 300+ km per hour, but none of them can get on these bullet trains since they don't stop at stations, bar one or two, on it's route. They wouldn't be "bullet" trains that shave off hours if they have to stop frequently at stations along the way. Like window shopping but knowing you can't get in/allowed in even if you have the money to buy the products being sold.
    This is a facetious and factually inaccurate argument. Why build satellites instead of feeding hungry people? That kind of flawed logic. Forgetting that the same satellites help farmers grow more food.


    I completely agree that white elephant prestige projects should not come at the cost of required improvements that could help the "Common man". But in India's case, fortunately in 2017, its not an either or choice anymore. BOTH can be afforded. And there is a strong business case to be made for fast train travel. India's geography and its existing rail network provide a logical platform that can be upgraded to high-speed.

    And there are economic benefits to doing that. Even in a large land-mass of the US, there is a business case for high-speed train travel in the coastal areas where the population density can support it. Because in the absence of high speed train travel, then air travel increase exponentially. An investment in high speed train network pays off over the long-term, even if you put a zero value on the environmental benefits.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndYeah1 View Post
    This is a facetious and factually inaccurate argument. Why build satellites instead of feeding hungry people? That kind of flawed logic. Forgetting that the same satellites help farmers grow more food.


    I completely agree that white elephant prestige projects should not come at the cost of required improvements that could help the "Common man". But in India's case, fortunately in 2017, its not an either or choice anymore. BOTH can be afforded. And there is a strong business case to be made for fast train travel. India's geography and its existing rail network provide a logical platform that can be upgraded to high-speed.

    And there are economic benefits to doing that. Even in a large land-mass of the US, there is a business case for high-speed train travel in the coastal areas where the population density can support it. Because in the absence of high speed train travel, then air travel increase exponentially. An investment in high speed train network pays off over the long-term, even if you put a zero value on the environmental benefits.
    And how many high speed rail lines or networks are there in the USA? Besides, to use your own words, comparisons with building and placing satellites into orbit "is a facetious and factually inaccurate argument". Satellites benefit the whole country, the rich and poor alike, but providing services such as telecommunications, weather forecasting (critical for farmers), crop information, locating mineral resources etc.

    No one is saying that bullet trains in a 3rd world country like India will not bring benefits, but the point is that it's the well off that will benefit the most by shaving a few hours off their journey times, whereas investing similar amounts will provide far more tangible, and actual life changing benefits to tens of millions. It's a case of priorities. But then again, it's the well off chest thumpers, more interested in prestige projects that are designed to 'impress the west', and who stand to benefit the most, that make the final decisions (which, to be fair, is the case everywhere, even in many western countries).


    “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule”

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