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  1. #1
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    Pakistan’s external debt likely to swell to $110b in four years

    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s external debt is projected to grow to a whopping $90 billion in the next four years and the country will need $20 billion a year just to meet its external financing requirements amid concerns that all constitutional arrangements put in place to manage debt have become ineffective.

    The external debt figures compiled by renowned economist and the country’s former finance minister Dr Hafiz Pasha are about $14 billion higher than the projections made by the International Monetary Fund.

    Dr Pasha on Saturday shared his doomsday scenario in a National Debt Conference, arranged by the Policy Research Institute of Market Economy (PRIME) – an independent think tank.

    Dr Pasha’s projections are based on official data. The $14 billion difference was mainly on account of foreign loans that will fly in to finance China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) projects. The government is not including CPEC loans in total public debt.

    “At the moment, we do not have details about the loans that will be taken under the CPEC,” said Ehtesham Rashid, Director General of the Debt Office at the Ministry of Finance, while responding to these projections.

    He said once details are available, the Office may have to re-do the entire debt management strategy.

    There is enormous support for the CPEC in Pakistan but this game-changing corridor has financial implications for the country that have to be highlighted for better management of debt, said Dr Pasha. His comments come after State Bank of Pakistan governor Ashraf Wathra in an interview last week said there was a need to divulge more details on the debt and investment portions of CPEC, stressing the need for more transparency on part of the government.

    Dr Pasha said by 2018-19 amortisation payments would double to $8.3 billion. The current account deficit – the gap between external payments and receipts – will exponentially widen to 4% of the total size of the economy against this year’s level of just under 1% of GDP, he said.

    The current account deficit will widen due to import of machinery and plants for CPEC projects, in addition to imported fuel like Liquefied Natural Gas and coal.

    As against IMF’s projections of just $8.6 billion requirement, Dr Pasha said that total external financing needs, including bridging the current account deficit and repayment of loans, will alarmingly triple to $20 billion by 2018-19.

    “This will push the total external debt to $90 billion by 2018-19, showing a growth of 38% over current volume of the foreign debt of over $65 billion,” said Dr Pasha.

    He said Pakistan’s exports would have to improve to at least $36 billion if the alarming increase in debt was to be arrested. The country’s exports currently hover around the $24-billion mark.

    The constitutional arrangements put in place to better manage debt are not effectively working as there is hardly any serious debate in the Council of Common Interests and National Economic Council on the debt issue, said Abdul Wajid Rana, former Secretary Finance. He said the Debt Management Office has become subservient to Secretary Finance and was not autonomous.


    Sakib Sherani, former Principal Economic Advisor to Ministry of Finance, said that the government was playing with debt numbers. His comments come after the government’s decision to exclude non-plan loans from public debt.

    He said the debt-to-GDP ratio has become irrelevant in case of Pakistan as the country lacks the capacity to repay the debt even at its current 65% level of debt-to-GDP ratio.

    “In case of Pakistan, the debt-to-revenue ratio is more relevant. 350% would be the limit, beyond which it wouldn’t be sustainable. Currently, this ratio stands at an alarming 523%,” said Sherani.

    “By 2018-19, the debt-to-revenue ratio will be over 750%,” said Dr Pasha.

    In order to ensure transparency, there must be a law requiring government to take parliamentary approval of any deal signed with the foreign governments and lending agencies, said Dr Kaiser Bengali, an economic consultant to government of Balochistan.




    http://tribune.com.pk/story/1009032/...-whopping-90b/


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  2. #2
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    But last i heard according to Ishaq Dar, Ahsan Iqbal, Pervez Rasheed and the King Nawaz Shareef "mulk main sab acha hai and we are on right path of success to achieve Roshan Pakistan"


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  3. #3
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    Legacy of all Pakistani civilian democratic governments after Musharraf.

  4. #4
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    What is the total GDP of Pakistan?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaFighter View Post
    Legacy of all Pakistani civilian democratic governments after Musharraf.
    but but only dictators are bad and these politicians are angels so Musharraf should be hanged for all the bad things happened to Pakistan.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    but but only dictators are bad and these politicians are angels so Musharraf should be hanged for all the bad things happened to Pakistan.
    Look at how people are making fun of Imran Khan and his failures when every one knows that it is impossible to battle against a corrupt colluding mafia who control all the relevant institutions.

    Honestly speaking this country and nation deserves the rulers that they get. Don't even blame the rulers, jaisay awaam waisay hukumraan.

    Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    What is the total GDP of Pakistan?
    around $250 IIRC


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  8. #8
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    Democracy has turned out to be a curse for Pakistan!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaFighter View Post
    Look at how people are making fun of Imran Khan and his failures when every one knows that it is impossible to battle against a corrupt colluding mafia who control all the relevant institutions.

    Honestly speaking this country and nation deserves the rulers that they get. Don't even blame the rulers, jaisay awaam waisay hukumraan.

    Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
    Exactly these politicians have changed the mindset of whole nation now if someone stand for a right thing he becomes a joke instantly and the whole nation and media laugh at him look at Imran Khan as an example. Jab qaum khud he nae badalna chahe to koi kia ker skta he. Yeh chor daaku be hum he leader banaate hena because hum jaante hen koi imaandar oper aa gaya to humain be koi ghalat kaam nae kerne dega or phr sirf insaf hoga.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    around $250 IIRC
    External debt of 90bn.How much is total debt?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    External debt of 90bn.How much is total debt?
    A few months old report http://tribune.com.pk/story/897270/c...nd-at-rs19-3t/


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by zabalestmsm View Post
    Democracy has turned out to be a curse for Pakistan!
    bhai patience. Within democracy you dont always get instant results. But things will get better in the long run. With democracy the improvements are small, but long term. With dictatorship, the improvements are instantaneous but leads to a significant number of problems in the long run.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    bhai patience. Within democracy you dont always get instant results. But things will get better in the long run. With democracy the improvements are small, but long term. With dictatorship, the improvements are instantaneous but leads to a significant number of problems in the long run.
    with democracy we saw the world worst corruption by a govt in last 5 years (talking about zardari govt)

    To give you an idea his buddies made 100 of billions so imagine how much he himself made. One of his buddy who is arrested now was willing to pay back 150 billion rupees so khud he andaza laga lo bhai kis type ki corruption hui hogi. They even sold parks and grounds! corruption ki be koi inteha hoti he


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    bhai patience. Within democracy you dont always get instant results. But things will get better in the long run. With democracy the improvements are small, but long term. With dictatorship, the improvements are instantaneous but leads to a significant number of problems in the long run.
    Most people don't give a crap if things don't happen within their life time.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    bhai patience. Within democracy you dont always get instant results. But things will get better in the long run. With democracy the improvements are small, but long term. With dictatorship, the improvements are instantaneous but leads to a significant number of problems in the long run.
    A democracy comprising of failed politicians in Nawaz, Zardari, Altaf, Asfandyar etc, will further ruin a country! If we let this current democracy run and expect 'everything will get better with time' then its not happening! There is no accountability then how can u expect everything to get better with time? Please come out of these fantasies! Zardari wasted 5 years and now this current government increasing the debt! Sorry mate 7 years of patience with this democracy was enough! I have seen we have regressed even further with time under this curse called democracy!
    Last edited by zabalestmsm; 13th December 2015 at 10:03.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaFighter View Post
    Most people don't give a crap if things don't happen within their life time.
    Well said!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by zabalestmsm View Post
    A democracy comprising of failed politicians in Nawaz, Zardari, Altaf, Asfandyar etc, will further ruin a country! If we let this current democracy run and expect 'everything will get better with time' then its not happening! There is no accountability then how can u expect everything to get better with time? Please come out of these fantasies! Zardari wasted 5 years and now this current government increasing the debt! Sorry mate 7 years of patience with this democracy was enough! I have seen we have regressed even further with time under this curse called democracy!
    exactly "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    These same faces are never going to improve the country no matter if you give this so called democracy 100 more years. It's more like a family business for them


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    exactly "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

    These same faces are never going to improve the country no matter if you give this so called democracy 100 more years. It's more like a family business for them
    Indeed!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    but but only dictators are bad and these politicians are angels so Musharraf should be hanged for all the bad things happened to Pakistan.
    How many years of Democracy Pakistan has had in its almost 70 years of existence?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    How many years of Democracy Pakistan has had in its almost 70 years of existence?
    The problem is deep most of these politicians used army and dictators as launching pad so even when there is democracy they fail to deliver because they are not genuine they are in govt just to look after their own interests.

    Nawaz Shareef is a product of Gen Zia and Gen Jillani

    MQM is also a product of Gen Zia

    PMLQ was a product of Gen Mush

    and Zulfiqar Bhutto himself had a Godfather like Gen Ayub

    How exactly can you give democracy to a nation when you yourself used army and establishment to come in govt?

    Our so called democratic leaders act like dictators without uniform and run the govt like a family business.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    The problem is deep most of these politicians used army and dictators as launching pad so even when there is democracy they fail to deliver because they are not genuine they are in govt just to look after their own interests.

    Nawaz Shareef is a product of Gen Zia and Gen Jillani

    MQM is also a product of Gen Zia

    PMLQ was a product of Gen Mush

    and Zulfiqar Bhutto himself had a Godfather like Gen Ayub

    How exactly can you give democracy to a nation when you yourself used army and establishment to come in govt?

    Our so called democratic leaders act like dictators without uniform and run the govt like a family business.
    How can you guys throw away these leaders and get real democratic ones if not by through elections?Another dictator will come and he will drag you in another war and then prop up another fake leader?It will take several democratic transition of power before you get a true democratic leader.You have had only 1 such transition.

    Even now its Raheel Shareef calling the shots.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    How many years of Democracy Pakistan has had in its almost 70 years of existence?
    Adding to my last post after Gen Zia death Nawaz and other leaders also took money from ISI to form a group called IJI against the govt of Benazir.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    How can you guys throw away these leaders and get real democratic ones if not by through elections?Another dictator will come and he will drag you in another war and then prop up another fake leader?It will take several democratic transition of power before you get a true democratic leader.You have had only 1 such transition.

    Even now its Raheel Shareef calling the shots.
    Things improved with accountability of leaders and free and fair elections otherwise they will always remain same no matter how many years you give and both accountability and free and fair election system don't exist in Pakistan and these same politicians are standing against it because they know giving it to the nation means end of their power.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    Things improved with accountability of leaders and free and fair elections otherwise they will always remain same no matter how many years you give and both accountability and free and fair election system don't exist in Pakistan and these same politicians are standing against it because they know giving it to the nation means end of their power.
    How will accounability come unless leaders fear loss of power in next election?

    Free and Fair elections will happen only if your election commision wields enough power.Pardon me for saying this but even your PM.only has limited powers.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    How will accounability come unless leaders fear loss of power in next election?

    Free and Fair elections will happen only if your election commision wields enough power.Pardon me for saying this but even your PM.only has limited powers.
    Because he have enough weaknesses and enough to lose so he will always compromise business is his family's first priority and that's one of the biggest weakness because the money is not clean. Same is the case with PPP and Zardari.

    Before Imran's PTI came into political scene before 3 years it was all about you and me will govern one by one btw PMLN and PP. First me than you so they had nothing to fear and accountability was dangerous for both. Imran party is ruling KP province now and the one of the first thing they did is depoliticize the police of that province and created an independent accountability that arrested one of their own minister and MP too. I wish we can expect same from PMLN or PPP in Sindh and Punjab or Federal.

    One of the biggest buddy of Zardari is arrested at the moment just because of Army and still Zardari and Sindh govt is trying their best to protect him.
    Last edited by Strike Rate; 13th December 2015 at 10:58.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    with democracy we saw the world worst corruption by a govt in last 5 years (talking about zardari govt)

    To give you an idea his buddies made 100 of billions so imagine how much he himself made. One of his buddy who is arrested now was willing to pay back 150 billion rupees so khud he andaza laga lo bhai kis type ki corruption hui hogi. They even sold parks and grounds! corruption ki be koi inteha hoti he
    and how will any other form of government solve this??

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by filthyfulltoss View Post
    and how will any other form of government solve this??
    Pakistan needs a strong and honest leader who can take tough decisions. Democracy is not going to solve anything in Pakistan.


    Narendra Modi and Imran Khan Zindabad! NOT

  28. #28
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    He said the debt-to-GDP ratio has become irrelevant in case of Pakistan as the country lacks the capacity to repay the debt even at its current 65% level of debt-to-GDP ratio. “In case of Pakistan, the debt-to-revenue ratio is more relevant. 350% would be the limit, beyond which it wouldn’t be sustainable. Currently, this ratio stands at an alarming 523%,” said Sherani.
    The main thing to question over here should debt to GDP ratio which should had reduced in the last 1 year due to the massive decrease in oil prices how can it be 65% of Debt to GDP???


    In cricket, my superhero is Sachin Tendulkar. He has always been my hero.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    The main thing to question over here should debt to GDP ratio which should had reduced in the last 1 year due to the massive decrease in oil prices how can it be 65% of Debt to GDP???
    You shouldn't raise any question samdhji ji of nawaz shareef and finance minister of this nation says sab acha hai bas media dikha nae raha shining pakistan


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    You shouldn't raise any question samdhji ji of nawaz shareef and finance minister of this nation says sab acha hai bas media dikha nae raha shining pakistan
    The Pak Govn is putting all the eggs in one basket(CPEC) its not the right way financially because it will also cause a massive dependency on China.Its a great project but it will take time and they can easily prepare on other projects with other countries too by then.


    In cricket, my superhero is Sachin Tendulkar. He has always been my hero.
    -Virat Kohli

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaDed View Post
    The Pak Govn is putting all the eggs in one basket(CPEC) its not the right way financially because it will also cause a massive dependency on China.Its a great project but it will take time and they can easily prepare on other projects with other countries too by then.
    And even in CPEC most investment is directly from china in pakistan it's not like they are giving all to GOP to do whatever they want to do with it because they know these corrupt politicians will eat those $46 billion without a dakaar.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    And even in CPEC most investment is directly from china in pakistan it's not like they are giving all to GOP to do whatever they want to do with it because they know these corrupt politicians will eat those $46 billion without a dakaar.
    Yeah, I think this is the model USAID should have followed. They spent billions on the country but with no acknowledgement from the people since most of that money was squandered.


    Misbah, Wahab, Junaid, Root, Williamson fan.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSchultz View Post
    Yeah, I think this is the model USAID should have followed. They spent billions on the country but with no acknowledgement from the people since most of that money was squandered.
    Yea thats why connecting with people at ground level is important so you get the acknowledgement you deserve because in countries like Pakistan when government change the whole policy change too. Look at how close Iran was getting with Pakistan in PPP govt and once govt changed Iran is nowhere to be seen.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    Yea thats why connecting with people at ground level is important so you get the acknowledgement you deserve because in countries like Pakistan when government change the whole policy change too. Look at how close Iran was getting with Pakistan in PPP govt and once govt changed Iran is nowhere to be seen.
    It's hilarious how Iran has completed its part of the pipeline right up till the border and we can't be bordered to link it up with even Quetta.


    Misbah, Wahab, Junaid, Root, Williamson fan.
    T20 isn't Cricket

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSchultz View Post
    It's hilarious how Iran has completed its part of the pipeline right up till the border and we can't be bordered to link it up with even Quetta.
    haha yea but making house of saud angry is not an option for current govt (army was there in ppp govt too they didn't stopped them from improving relations with iran). Even though in last govt biggest issue was USA against this pipeline and now even USA have better relations with Iran and it's only improving so we all know what really is the issue at the moment


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSchultz View Post
    It's hilarious how Iran has completed its part of the pipeline right up till the border and we can't be bordered to link it up with even Quetta.
    Adding to my last post Iran had agreed in last govt to build a refinery in Gwadar because there is going to be a high demand when Gwadar becomes active and it was an opportunity for Iran to cash it and in return they were offering us some free oil too.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  37. #37
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    How do I quote multiple posts from different people in a single reply?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    How do I quote multiple posts from different people in a single reply?
    click the + icon that is there with reply with quote


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    click the + icon that is there with reply with quote
    oh thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    with democracy we saw the world worst corruption by a govt in last 5 years (talking about zardari govt)

    To give you an idea his buddies made 100 of billions so imagine how much he himself made. One of his buddy who is arrested now was willing to pay back 150 billion rupees so khud he andaza laga lo bhai kis type ki corruption hui hogi. They even sold parks and grounds! corruption ki be koi inteha hoti he
    this should be a world record, sharjeel memom use to send 200 corore to zardari regularly

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlphaFighter View Post
    Most people don't give a crap if things don't happen within their life time.
    Understandable, but the pains you take now, will reap benefits in the future. See, what has Pakistan been doing so far? Democracy - Military - Democracy - Military

    Democracy has never really been given a chance. Even with an elected government your military has had too much power. So, what options do you have?

    1. Stick to military rule - How many modern nations do you know that have prospered without any major revolutions in a military rule.

    How many non-democratic countries are there that have been successful? A few - Saudi Arabia and middle east. Well they have lots of Oil which has allowed the sheikhs to paper over the cracks by throwing money at it. Pakistan doesnt have those luxuries.

    China - China is not entirely democratic, but its not military either. Its run by a single partty, but even within the party the officials are elected in one form or another.

    So going the military hasnt the really been fruitful for most nations. What makes you feel Pakistan will go the different way?

    2. Go the democracy way with the government controlling the military and not the other way - Most successful modern nations are actually templates of this. Yes, things would happen that you make not like, but at least the populations has power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    with democracy we saw the world worst corruption by a govt in last 5 years (talking about zardari govt)

    To give you an idea his buddies made 100 of billions so imagine how much he himself made. One of his buddy who is arrested now was willing to pay back 150 billion rupees so khud he andaza laga lo bhai kis type ki corruption hui hogi. They even sold parks and grounds! corruption ki be koi inteha hoti he
    Well, with democracy people will start learning what is good for them. If a govt doesn't perform or is corrupt it will get booted out in the next election. It wont happen tomorrow, but will take time as people will learn that voting on religious/regional/caste grounds gets them no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by zabalestmsm View Post
    A democracy comprising of failed politicians in Nawaz, Zardari, Altaf, Asfandyar etc, will further ruin a country! If we let this current democracy run and expect 'everything will get better with time' then its not happening! There is no accountability then how can u expect everything to get better with time? Please come out of these fantasies! Zardari wasted 5 years and now this current government increasing the debt! Sorry mate 7 years of patience with this democracy was enough! I have seen we have regressed even further with time under this curse called democracy!
    What would you like to see if you dont want a democratic government? And what would be the likely outcome?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cricketjoshila View Post
    How will accounability come unless leaders fear loss of power in next election?

    Free and Fair elections will happen only if your election commision wields enough power.Pardon me for saying this but even your PM.only has limited powers.
    No PM or president should have all the power.

  43. #43
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    @www787 the problem in Pakistan is that it was always between PMLN and PPP so what better choice we had aik chor jaaye or dusra daakoo aaye lootne? Parties will never improve if there is no accountability no matter how many chances you give to them. PPP with all the blunders is still winning 70% of the sindh what else you expect from this nation? Vote to bhutto ka he jo marzi ho jaaye


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  44. #44
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    Sidilicious is making good points and as a political science student and enthusiast his argument is spot on and has precedence.

    However human nature is that you can only take so much. This 8 years of democracy has only given us trouble and pain and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. You can't just live and be happy in the hope that eventually democracy will fix things. What if it doesn't?

  45. #45
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    Democracy is only a process, in other words a means to bring about the means to an end, its not meant to be a magic cure for a country's economic ills. When you have fixing scandals in cricket you punish the fixers not shut down cricket. Are the people absolved from blame seeing as they vote for these figures time and again ? Corruption isn't just the problem of Pakistan, its worldwide. But almost all countries deal with it within the system and by not allowing the system to be blown away.

    People keep bringing up Singapore as a model. What they don't realise is in a small environment there are no objections against strong central control over everything - there is no real "centre vs regional" tug of war. Dictators, or dictatorial rulers (one could argue that Singapore had a democratically elected dictator for its first 3 decades) tend to favour strong central control. In Pakistan especially, this becomes problematic. When you have this so-called "strong central leader" where the fate of the country revolves around the whims of one man, it naturally leads to alienation.

    In a society like Pakistan where there are so many cultural, ethnic and tribal differences you can't have an overcentralised state dictatorship. Have people forgotten the 'One Unit' experiment ? We had this so-called strong central leadership then and led to secession of the Eastern Wing.

    I agree that Pakistan's democracy is massively flawed however. You have high levels of illiteracy where people instead of voting on the issues they vote for their local zameendar or whoever. True democracy also can't be realised without breaking the power of these Nawabs and Sardars and the landowning class whose very presence is undemocratic.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markhor View Post
    Democracy is only a process, in other words a means to bring about the means to an end, its not meant to be a magic cure for a country's economic ills. When you have fixing scandals in cricket you punish the fixers not shut down cricket. Are the people absolved from blame seeing as they vote for these figures time and again ? Corruption isn't just the problem of Pakistan, its worldwide. But almost all countries deal with it within the system and by not allowing the system to be blown away.

    People keep bringing up Singapore as a model. What they don't realise is in a small environment there are no objections against strong central control over everything - there is no real "centre vs regional" tug of war. Dictators, or dictatorial rulers (one could argue that Singapore had a democratically elected dictator for its first 3 decades) tend to favour strong central control. In Pakistan especially, this becomes problematic. When you have this so-called "strong central leader" where the fate of the country revolves around the whims of one man, it naturally leads to alienation.

    In a society like Pakistan where there are so many cultural, ethnic and tribal differences you can't have an overcentralised state dictatorship. Have people forgotten the 'One Unit' experiment ? We had this so-called strong central leadership then and led to secession of the Eastern Wing.

    I agree that Pakistan's democracy is massively flawed however. You have high levels of illiteracy where people instead of voting on the issues they vote for their local zameendar or whoever. True democracy also can't be realised without breaking the power of these Nawabs and Sardars and the landowning class whose very presence is undemocratic.
    Unless I am totally off and mistaken wasnt the One Unit experiment conducted so that West Pakistan could compete with East Pakistan and lay claim on resources? With 4 seperate provinces with West Pakistan (as it was earlier), Bengal (East Pakistan's) population would be significantly higher and more than rest put together and hence bye every measure they would get more resources. However under the One Unit scheme West Pakistan could be treated as one entity and have resources refirected towards it and then go to the people in power


    #MPGA

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slog View Post
    Unless I am totally off and mistaken wasnt the One Unit experiment conducted so that West Pakistan could compete with East Pakistan and lay claim on resources? With 4 seperate provinces with West Pakistan (as it was earlier), Bengal (East Pakistan's) population would be significantly higher and more than rest put together and hence bye every measure they would get more resources. However under the One Unit scheme West Pakistan could be treated as one entity and have resources refirected towards it and then go to the people in power
    Yes and to crush ethno-nationalism. It was a stupid idea that achieved the reverse, forcing an artificial nationalism on such a diverse group of peoples.

    Here's a good article about it - https://lubpak.com/archives/32009

  48. #48
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    In yester year I would get angry about the looting but I have resigned myself to this perpetual misery and don't really care anymore, the people Voted for this **** and deserve everything they get.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bewal Express View Post
    In yester year I would get angry about the looting but I have resigned myself to this perpetual misery and don't really care anymore, the people Voted for this **** and deserve everything they get.
    but what about those people who didn't voted for this ****?


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  50. #50
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    I don't think corruption only can lead to this.

    There must be faults within the system. I believe in 70s or 80s, the picture of pak economy was better than india?

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    but what about those people who didn't voted for this ****?
    If you take the PPP and PML vote as combined, it adds upto more than a majority and democracy is the best revenge on the stupid and the greedy. I cant stand anybody that votes for these cretins and then says that corruption is a problem. Corruption is not a natural phenomenon, it is the PPP/PML and the army who are responsible for the corruption and as far i am concerned, they represent the majority.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidilicious View Post
    What would you like to see if you dont want a democratic government? And what would be the likely outcome?
    I want the constitution of our country to be implemented in complete letter and spirit! And the outcome will be that Pakistan will rise!
    Last edited by zabalestmsm; 14th December 2015 at 12:51.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by zabalestmsm View Post
    I want the constitution of our country to be implemented in complete letter and spirit! And the outcome will be that Pakistan will rise!
    We desis are too smart even for ourselves.

    Greed is within our blood. We always try to find a loop hole for corruption. We prefer small benefits instead of a little sacrifice even of it means harming the general population.

  54. #54
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    Imagine if India-Pak were communist countries like China...

  55. #55
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    Aur vote do Noora ko..


    Demons run when a good man goes to war
    GO NAWAZ GO!

  56. #56
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    You wouldn't find Noora back-side lickers like FallenKing in a thread like this


    Demons run when a good man goes to war
    GO NAWAZ GO!

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    Aur vote do Noora ko..
    Can't find the usual suspects in this thread are they busy cheering for Roshan and Shining Pakistan?


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  58. #58
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    @cricketjoshila Bhai josh ki jagah hosh se kaam lo. Kashmir has had 'democracy' and 'elections' for quite a long time an the choices are currently the Muftis, the Abdullahs and the BJP. Ye aisi misaal hai ki 3 kutte hai aur choose karo kon katey ga. Kutta koi bhi kaatey, injection awaam ko karwana padega. Democracy is and has been a sham for a very long time, just our post-colonial mindset at work. Look at China and compare it to India and you will see which system is better.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adijazz1706 View Post
    @cricketjoshila Bhai josh ki jagah hosh se kaam lo. Kashmir has had 'democracy' and 'elections' for quite a long time an the choices are currently the Muftis, the Abdullahs and the BJP. Ye aisi misaal hai ki 3 kutte hai aur choose karo kon katey ga. Kutta koi bhi kaatey, injection awaam ko karwana padega. Democracy is and has been a sham for a very long time, just our post-colonial mindset at work. Look at China and compare it to India and you will see which system is better.
    Please next time vote NOTA and we can have Governors rule in J and K.

    Indian Democracy has been praised by people all over the world.

  60. #60
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    I don't vote and would never vote NOTA (coz Jagmohan). Doesn't matter who wins these elections, they will do the same things and say the same jumlas. We have been hearing Modi type jumlas longer than Indians. The 'we are praised by others' part makes you look a tad insecure though.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by desi_launda View Post
    Imagine if India-Pak were communist countries like China...
    Politically they might be communist but economically they are capitalist.

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    I think Pakistan's debt is not as bad as it is projected with GDP around USD 270 billion. India has around 66% debt. The only thing they need to do is to somehow make primary deficit to 0 and not fall in debt trap. Not sure what the bond yield is but if it is growing more than GDP growth rate of about 4 % then it should be worrying which will downgrade the Pakistan credit rating.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adijazz1706 View Post
    @cricketjoshila Bhai josh ki jagah hosh se kaam lo. Kashmir has had 'democracy' and 'elections' for quite a long time an the choices are currently the Muftis, the Abdullahs and the BJP. Ye aisi misaal hai ki 3 kutte hai aur choose karo kon katey ga. Kutta koi bhi kaatey, injection awaam ko karwana padega. Democracy is and has been a sham for a very long time, just our post-colonial mindset at work. Look at China and compare it to India and you will see which system is better.
    Ah yes, The China system. Where fasting for Ramzan is banned and Mullahs are forced to dance. Regional languages are banned in schools and Han Chinese are making natives a minority in their own land.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    but but only dictators are bad and these politicians are angels so Musharraf should be hanged for all the bad things happened to Pakistan.
    Musharraf, NRO, Zardari...Irony...

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    @Ind-yeah I wasn't talking about religion, I was talking about democracy and economic growth. There are 2 sides to each coin. This is an economic thread that got deviated towards the pros and cons of democracy. We need tighter control of the economy and simultaneously we need to reduce corruption. Pretty improbable, but it can be done. Otherwise, the corrupt politicians and their tycoon masters will continue to make us suffer.

  66. #66
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    Mush started off so well but like all the men in uniform he got greedy for eternal power. His legacy should have been that crooks like Zardari and NS never return but due to his greed the same crooks have joined hands to make him run pillar to post.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaiderAbbasRizvi View Post
    Musharraf, NRO, Zardari...Irony...
    NRO was the biggest blunder of Musharraf and now he even himself admit in every interview. I also count his agreement with mians as a blunder when he sent them to saudi. He started the accountability drama and was doing fine for a year or two when he came and thrown almost every clown into the jail including sheikh rasheed but later compromised on almost everything and the clowns were back under a new banner. As Hassan Nisar always says yahan miltary dictators ko jamhuryat ka or jamhurat pasando jo without uniform dictator banene ka shoq cher jata he koi cheaz khalis nae. Military dictator ho to dictator ban ker raho apni party launch kerna laazmi hota he to prove see i like democracy too.


    " It is true, Pakistan cricket is not defined by planning, it is not defined by team work and it is not defined by an entire match. It is defined by moments, moments of inspiration, moments of magic, moments when the unsung become the sung, when the world starts rotating in the opposite direction, when the abnormal becomes the normal, when delusion becomes logic – it is when the stars align. "

  68. #68
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    Pasha loathes debt - you will know if you have ever met him personally and talked economics. Any emerging economy would need debt for capex, but his revenue point is a bit more subtle. You'll look at Debt-to-GDP if your consumer economy is your crown jewel - but, for Pakistan, it's not (as it's very patchy and tethered even now with the security situation in the region).

    The windfall from lowered oil prices could have been used to either reduce the current debt or, better yet, spend money on developing services-based exports. CPEC is a good project, but it benefits China more than it does Pakistan. Pakistan has a population that is young, with an educated part that can speak English and, say, write lines of code, crunch large swathes of data, decipher engineering, etc. You want to leverage this kind of asset to build your exports - not by charging transit fees, or setting up rest-stop-like retail shops along a transportation corridor.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironcat View Post
    Pasha loathes debt - you will know if you have ever met him personally and talked economics. Any emerging economy would need debt for capex, but his revenue point is a bit more subtle. You'll look at Debt-to-GDP if your consumer economy is your crown jewel - but, for Pakistan, it's not (as it's very patchy and tethered even now with the security situation in the region).

    The windfall from lowered oil prices could have been used to either reduce the current debt or, better yet, spend money on developing services-based exports. CPEC is a good project, but it benefits China more than it does Pakistan. Pakistan has a population that is young, with an educated part that can speak English and, say, write lines of code, crunch large swathes of data, decipher engineering, etc. You want to leverage this kind of asset to build your exports - not by charging transit fees, or setting up rest-stop-like retail shops along a transportation corridor.
    Whole heartedly agree.. but transportation is the absolute key for any economy to develop.


    We never even tried to build a proper highway between the two economic centers, Karachi and Lahore.


    Demons run when a good man goes to war
    GO NAWAZ GO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syed1 View Post
    You wouldn't find Noora back-side lickers like FallenKing in a thread like this
    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    Can't find the usual suspects in this thread are they busy cheering for Roshan and Shining Pakistan?
    They;re too busy trying to see how they can blame the army on this one. Remember guys, if something good, like Zar-b-Azb happens its the government's idea. If something bad like the debt happens its army's.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakpak View Post
    They;re too busy trying to see how they can blame the army on this one. Remember guys, if something good, like Zar-b-Azb happens its the government's idea. If something bad like the debt happens its army's.
    Yes, because the debt all happened overnight.


    Narendra Modi and Imran Khan Zindabad! NOT

  72. #72
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    @CricketCartoons
    T20I Debutant
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    Remove user from ignore list

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike Rate View Post
    NRO was the biggest blunder of Musharraf and now he even himself admit in every interview. I also count his agreement with mians as a blunder when he sent them to saudi. He started the accountability drama and was doing fine for a year or two when he came and thrown almost every clown into the jail including sheikh rasheed but later compromised on almost everything and the clowns were back under a new banner. As Hassan Nisar always says yahan miltary dictators ko jamhuryat ka or jamhurat pasando jo without uniform dictator banene ka shoq cher jata he koi cheaz khalis nae. Military dictator ho to dictator ban ker raho apni party launch kerna laazmi hota he to prove see i like democracy too.
    It is safe to conclude that the man was a pretender with a huge Napoleonic complex and never had any good intentions to begin with, only acted when he was fired, prior to which everything was supposedly hunky dory.

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    Pakistan’s debt situation not a pretty picture

    Renowned economist and former finance minister recently rang a warning bell on Pakistan’s external debt position.

    According to his estimates, external debt would reach a whopping $90 billion in the next four years and the country would need $20 billion a year just to meet its external financing requirements. Not only would this adversely impact macroeconomic sustainability, but would have a negative impact on growth as well.

    Pakistan’s external debt set to grow to whopping $90b

    Economists have argued that reasonable levels of external debt that help finance productive investment may enhance growth but beyond that, additional levels of indebtedness may cause to reduce it.

    Countries have faced severe external debt crises and there have been instances of sovereign debt defaults since 1800. More recently, during the 1980s several countries faced high debt levels and repayments became impossible.

    In a seminal paper by Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff, the authors have attempted to count all the sovereign defaults from 1800 to early 2000s. They count more than 250 instances of sovereign defaults in 200 years — an average of more than one a year.

    Various factors have been attributed to this phenomenon. Reversal of global capital flows, weak revenues and rising interest rates are some of the few reasons which can potentially cause this.

    Pakistan’s external debt situation

    Currently as of September 2015, Pakistan’s external debt stands at $66.5 billion.

    External debt is primarily comprised of public debt (government debt, debt from IMF and foreign exchange liabilities), public sector enterprises (PSEs), banks, private sector debt and debt liabilities to direct investors.

    Of this total external debt, nearly 84% is public debt. This debt is primarily long term in nature acquired from various multilateral organisations.

    International Debt Statistics compiled by the World Bank has claimed that for 2014 almost 55% of external debt in the country is denominated in US dollars.

    Moreover, the interest rate for all creditors is 4.3% with a maturity of 17 years. Grant element of this debt has been significantly reduced and stands at 37% which went as high as 66% in 2011.

    Regionally, India has a much larger external debt position amounting to $482.9 billion.

    Although Pakistan’s external debt is much smaller in magnitude compared to its neighbour, it has been consistently increasing.

    It is significant to note that in a period of nine years from June 2006 to June 2015, the increase in external debt has been 75%.

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    With limited increase in our export base and rising external debt stocks, the ratio of external debt to exports has been creeping up since 2012 and has reached 200% in 2014. Debt servicing to exports has also been rising over the years and stands at 19%in 2014.

    Debt sustainability is key

    Debt sustainability is a critical issue and one that is key to overall macroeconomic stability.

    The joint World Bank-International Monetary Fund Debt sustainability framework was introduced in 2005 and is periodically reviewed. It was conducted most recently in 2012 with the next review being scheduled for 2016.

    This framework for debt sustainability analysis has three broad policy objectives. One is to assess the current debt situation, its maturity structure, whether it has fixed or floating rates and by whom it is held.

    Secondly, to identify vulnerabilities in the debt structure so that policy advice can be introduced before payment difficulties arise and lastly to examine the impact of alternative debt stabilising paths.

    Disclosure on debt to all policymakers is key to making decisions that are critical for macroeconomic stability. Recently, the governor of the central bank of the country also hinted on this point when he said that the government should clarify regarding the composition of the much touted investment of China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) in terms of how much is equity and what proportion is debt.

    Importance should be paid not on the magnitude but rather the efficiency of investment. Furthermore, our policymakers should pay serious attention towards debt sustainability before it balloons itself to be unmanageable. Pakistan’s debt to exports ratio of 200% is quite high.

    IMF studies have pointed out that halving debt to exports ratio from about 200% of exports to about 100% would boost per capita growth by about 0.5-1%.

    Lesser developing countries like Pakistan with weak institutions and policy structures face greater repayment issues and, therefore should pay great emphasis on the implementation of debt sustainability frameworks to avoid any future crises.

    Source: http://tribune.com.pk/story/1017196/...retty-picture/




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  75. #75
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    China is helping you guys why worry??

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by uberkoen View Post
    Renowned economist and former finance minister recently rang a warning bell on Pakistan’s external debt position.

    According to his estimates, external debt would reach a whopping $90 billion in the next four years and the country would need $20 billion a year just to meet its external financing requirements. ...
    Who exactly?

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironcat View Post
    Who exactly?
    Dr. Hafeez A. Pasha

    Pakistan’s external debt is projected to grow to a whopping $90 billion in the next four years and the country will need $20 billion a year just to meet its external financing requirements amid concerns that all constitutional arrangements put in place to manage debt have become ineffective.

    The external debt figures compiled by renowned economist and the country’s former finance minister Dr Hafiz Pasha are about $14 billion higher than the projections made by the International Monetary Fund.

    Dr Pasha on Saturday shared his doomsday scenario in a National Debt Conference, arranged by the Policy Research Institute of Market Economy (PRIME) – an independent think tank.

    Dr Pasha’s projections are based on official data. The $14 billion difference was mainly on account of foreign loans that will fly in to finance China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) projects. The government is not including CPEC loans in total public debt.

    “At the moment, we do not have details about the loans that will be taken under the CPEC,” said Ehtesham Rashid, Director General of the Debt Office at the Ministry of Finance, while responding to these projections.

    He said once details are available, the Office may have to re-do the entire debt management strategy.

    There is enormous support for the CPEC in Pakistan but this game-changing corridor has financial implications for the country that have to be highlighted for better management of debt, said Dr Pasha. His comments come after State Bank of Pakistan governor Ashraf Wathra in an interview last week said there was a need to divulge more details on the debt and investment portions of CPEC, stressing the need for more transparency on part of the government.

    Dr Pasha said by 2018-19 amortisation payments would double to $8.3 billion. The current account deficit – the gap between external payments and receipts – will exponentially widen to 4% of the total size of the economy against this year’s level of just under 1% of GDP, he said.

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    The current account deficit will widen due to import of machinery and plants for CPEC projects, in addition to imported fuel like Liquefied Natural Gas and coal.

    As against IMF’s projections of just $8.6 billion requirement, Dr Pasha said that total external financing needs, including bridging the current account deficit and repayment of loans, will alarmingly triple to $20 billion by 2018-19.

    “This will push the total external debt to $90 billion by 2018-19, showing a growth of 38% over current volume of the foreign debt of over $65 billion,” said Dr Pasha.

    He said Pakistan’s exports would have to improve to at least $36 billion if the alarming increase in debt was to be arrested. The country’s exports currently hover around the $24-billion mark.




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  78. #78
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    Though not quite wrong here, he has always had choice words for the country's debt policy. Esp. in person if you were to talk to him when he was the finance minister.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by dandapinda View Post
    China is helping you guys why worry??


    'If I have to shoot 200,000 students to save China from another 100 years of disorder, so be it.'

  80. #80
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    There was already a thread i think opened on something similar by @Strike Rate.


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